163 Comments »

Yikes said:
Naomi Dunford and Dave Navarro have reached some “decent traction” and Naomi thinks of him as “her best friend?” Of course she does. Which came first, the “traction” or the “friendship?”
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:05 pm

RT said:
Is that little guy in the picture Jacob?
This whole thing is sad and Naomi is clearly scum.
I am not sure what Naomi is providing but there is no way anything could beat doing taekwondo with the kids (our kids do soccer).
There is no real point to my post but I am going to make sure my kiddos don’t ever have a moment where they have to question that dad loves them.
I hope this all ends in some restoration and peace for Jacob and siblings.
WINNER!! ::   +18
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
@RT ::
Jacob is sitting behind The Picture of Dunfordian Gray :: the other two cuties are his younger brothers Joey and Jon … who are handling this disaster not well. They don’t have Facebook accounts though :: so hopefully Naomi hasn’t pinged them to talk about her IttyBiz tractions and such.
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:12 pm

Neal said:
Naomi Dunford said:
“…he’s seriously messed up emotionally right now…”
That, right there, appears to totally solidify his fam’s position on the need for professional help, and undermines Dunford’s previous posturing that they were the ones off base!
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

SpideySenses Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 5:28 am
@Neal, And more manipulation on Naomi’s part. “Despite how crappy you’re feeling right now, your dad is feeling crappier so back off with your whining.”
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:15 pm

422 said:
Wait a minute, isn’t Jacob a minor still??? Why is Naomi cursing like a drunk hooker at a truck stop throughout these emails???
Salty how can you stand this, I get nauseated just reading her crap. It’s obvious she’s trying to con Jacob with her “let me know if I can do anything for you” con.
What a nut case.
WINNER!! ::   +23
[Reply]

422 Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Naomi has no shame to her game and she’s resorted to manipulating children for her own sick agenda. These kids are already hurting and here she is adding more fuel to the pain already by playing mind games with a KID who’s father walked out on him!! A KID!! This woman is beyond sick and depraved.
WINNER!! ::   +14
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Not Frank Kernal Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
@422,
My thoughts exactly. Unbelievable!
  +1
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:17 pm

Dave said:
More asshattery by the spiderbitch. And Dave. I can see that conversation:
“Hey Naomi, I’m too much of a shit, can you please write an email to my son telling him I’m a shit and don’t have the balls to talk to him?”
This woman is beyond vile.
WINNER!! ::   +20
[Reply]

Martypants Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
@Dave, I see it as her taking advantage of a troubled soul, that Dave was troubled and close – and she simply saw it and went for it.
My little brother is in a wheelchair (a quad), and when we go to the zoo, the tigers very literally lock on to him…a steely gaze that you cannot argue with – and they never lose their gaze…he is immediately recognized as the weakest in our pack, and they see it thru the windows, and it is natural as hell. They follow him – it is creepy. They watch him, and wait for their opportunity…happens every time you take a quadriplegic to the zoo. The tigers want to eat them most of all. They tag him, and bag him – just wait for us to look away.
I see this all as Dave looking away from his dadly duties (for whatever reason)…and purely for the boys (and potential aftermath), I hope he wakes the fuck up.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Kathleen Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
@Martypants, so true on the big cats. When my son was… 7? 8? Anyway, it was a while back… we went to a Big Cat sanctuary in Alabama called Tigers for Tomorrow. (If you ever have the chance, it’s well worth it.) At every enclosure, the animals locked right onto my son, who said, “They like me!” Heh – yes, they did. But not the way he thought. :-) Creepy is definitely the word for it.
Back on topic. sociopaths are very skilled at reading people and manipulating them, because we regular folks tend to believe that we’ll always be able to tell when we’re being conned. Sociopaths capitalize on that.
  +5
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:25 pm

Sundog said:
So does this mean she moved to Carolina to start a business with Dave?
  +2
[Reply]

Puhlease Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 9:15 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Sundog, Why are you using a question mark to make a statement? Just make your statement, like this: You need a new act, troll.
LOSER!! ::   -14
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 11:43 pm
@Puhlease, Homie, I’ve been here for over a year, suck it. I was just trying to clarify if this is why Ittybitch was registered in North Carolina, and whether she moved right into his state before she stole him from his family. You know, contributing to the narrative. Eat shit and die
  +4
[Reply]

Dan Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:18 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Sundog, What is your game, slick? You playing “inept, accidental devil’s advocate” with your random, out of left field comments/questions that just seem to “unintentionally” throw the guilty a bone here? I know sly when I see it.
LOSER!! ::   -6
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:35 am
@Dan ::
I don’t think it’s sly … sly is oh so rarely on display here.
Sundog’s not a troll :: but he did say this …
“If my brother had me committed because I disagreed with his religious beliefs…”
… which I’ve yet to forgive.
[Reply]

it could happen to anyone Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:52 am
@SD,
Those of us suspicious of fundamentalist religion were more likely to fall for Ms Dunford’s misdirection, due to our own prejudices…fortunately Dr Myers’ fundamentalist aethesim has redressed the balance somewhat.
I came to this site from the “death threats” post and, while initially given to believe that version of events, it’s become clear Anthony Navarro’s only agenda is as a brother aghast at Dave’s actions, motivated only by love and concern for his brother. He just happens to have a strong Christian faith, which some have allowed to cloud the issue (and others have actively sought to make this the issue, to obfuscate the real issue at hand).
What the anti-religion lobby seem to have ignored is the implication that, before this, Dave appears to have been every bit as religious as Anthony (a few sources which seem to have SD’s trust have implied Dave brought Anthony to religion.
So Dave’s not just left his wife and family, he seems to have suddenly rejected everything he held dear. I think I’d be considering a pyschiatric evaluation if any of my loved ones displayed similar behaviour, but some of us allowed our anti-religious prejudices to cloud the issue.
Exactly as Ms Dunford intended, of course.
WINNER!! ::   +18
[Reply]

it could happen to anyone Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:58 am
@it could happen to anyone,
Just to be clear, PZ Myer’s crass, unnecessary and unthinking intervention helped those of us suspicious of religion see once-and-for-all that Anthony Navarro is a good guy doing his utmost for his brother.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 11:30 am
@SD, Sorry :( And sorry to Anthony too, if you’re reading this. I’m a recovering mark. When I saw that post, I took it at face value. I had no idea how deep this rabbit hole went.
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:20 am
@Sundog ::
Well that’s clearly what she says she’s doing in this bizarre convo … but that doesn’t mean that’s what she did. And it’s certainly not in keeping with the story she was pumping out at the time. So it is a strange thing for her to have said.
I was trying to find evidence that she was in Carolina before he left … and I did find stuff … but here she is just confessing it.
And is she a duel citizen or something? You can’t just move here.
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 11:36 am
@SD, Thanks for clearing that up. I latched onto that point because it sounds like she went down to the Carolinas to extricate him from his family, which is EVEN MORE EVIL than sitting on gchat and whispering in his ear.
It’s been a bit of a mystery to me where Dave thought he was going when he grabbed his laptop and walked out of his home, but if the Spider was in a hotel room across town, it makes a LOT more sense.
As I mentioned above, I am a bit of a fool and believed her bullshit and am constantly shocked at the new levels of control and manipulation she exerte here.
And I’m 100% sure she’s not a dual citizen, and I’m 100% sure immigration laws wouldn’t bother her in the slightest. Though it explains why Ittybiz was registered under Dave’s name.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:27 pm

422 said:
Something about those emails is off. The tone is as if she’s talking to another adult, not a child.
She writes : “I’ve been thinking about you a lot lately. God, how weird does THAT sound?”
Something about these emails is weird, has a disturbing tinge of flirtation or something. She’ll do well with Paulie Sabol, disgusting.
WINNER!! ::   +20
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:35 am
@422,
Naomi Dunford is a con artist. She shows her true colors with these emails. This woman isn’t above anything when trying to get her way.
Salty,
How old is this kid during the time of this exchange? Who talks to kids this way? Is there any laws being committed by someone speaking to a minor in this fashion?
  +2
[Reply]

422 Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:43 am
@Shit Storm, you’ve asked the magic question. Aren’t there any laws in place to report adults who make come-ons to children? I think the law enforcement agencies would be very interested in Naomi Dunford’s activities concerning children.
  +2
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:47 am
@422,
The sexual overtones are obvious but what’s also obvious is the overt attempt to manipulate a child.
I’m sure there aren’t but this bitch is vile and if nothing else the authorities need to be made aware of her.
Is she legal in this country? How about tax evasion?
  +4
[Reply]

FormerFriend Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:51 am
@Shit Storm,
This was almost a year ago, so Jacob would have been 15 at the time he received these messages.
  +1
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:41 am
@FormerFriend,
Thanks. I hope he finds peace in his life very soon
  0
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 8:29 pm

hrmmm said:
Tone aside, swearwords aside, Naomi’s sketchiness aside – I really only have one thing to say here, and that is that Naomi is running interference between Dave and his hurting kid.
If Naomi can write to Jacob, then why can’t Dave? Nothing in this set of messages adequately explains that, really. Which sort of forces me to share Droid’s conclusion: that it’s because Dave has been brainwashed or something equally fucked up.
WINNER!! ::   +18
[Reply]

Unicorn Army Reply:
October 11th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
@hrmmm, actually it sounds like Dave is an asshole. There’s no excuse for him ignoring his son. It’s clear that Naomi is. What the “car attack of 2010″ means, we don’t know… but it sounds like these two assholes think Dave’s brother is an asshole too. Super awesome for the kids all the way around. Good thing they have Naomi to pretend to care. That must be so comforting, knowing that she’s keeping their Dad “on the rails” so her Ittzbiz doesn’t suffer.
WINNER!! ::   +21
[Reply]

hrmmm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:04 am
@Unicorn Army, you may very well be correct. I just don’t know yet. But I do think that the car incident was referring to the Dave-being-taken-to-get-mentally-evaluated thing, where he then supposedly got blocked in by Anthony’s car when he was trying to leave after being released (I might have my details muddy, but this is what sprang to mind when I read that.)
  +1
[Reply]

Jane Galt Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 12:33 am
@Unicorn Army,
Hear, Hear!!
  0
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:38 am
@hrmmm ::
It’s gonna get weirder still … the truth is dark.
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:40 am
@hrmmm,
Dave is guilty of negligence and abandoning his children.
Dave is brainwashed by money, celebrity and sex.
He walked out on his kids…forget the marriage…his kids.
Any father who refuses his child’s in this manner is a dick and deserves everything he has coming.
  +5
[Reply]

Barbara Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
@Shit Storm,
Celebrity?! Dunford? Outside of the slimy toad-filled pond in which she makes her home, who has ever heard of Naomi Dunford?
She may be a legend in her own mind but she’s no celebrity.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Anna Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:43 pm
@Barbara, I’m not sure @Shitstorm meant Naomi was a celebrity. I read that as he was enamored of the idea of being some sort of IM Rockstar in his own right.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 9:23 pm

High Beam said:
Naomi’s emails have about as much warmth and sincerity as the average autoresponder message. Maybe the next email in her “series” will be promoting her “Make due without a father program.”
WINNER!! ::   +16
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:26 am
@High Beam ::
She has more experience in the “Make due without a mother” niche.
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 9:25 pm

Regrets said:
This is eerie and scary:
“It’s kind of in MY BEST INTEREST to KEEP HIM ON THE RAILS and not constantly exposed to more drama than he needs to be.”
“If that means I have to STRONGLY RECOMMEND he stay the hell away from the lion’s den that was your house circa The Great Anthony And His Car Ambush Of 2010, well, THAT’S WHAT I’M GOING TO DO.”
“I KNOW HE HASN’T RESPONDED to the email you sent him and I KNOW he feels like a dick about it and I KNOW he still has NO IDEA how to reply.”
[emphasis mine]
This is the stuff of nightmares.
And “your dad’s lawyer has advised him not to get in touch with your uncle in case it goes to a libel suit”?????
Unbelievable.
WINNER!! ::   +15
[Reply]

I was here before Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:54 am
@Regrets, The way she talks to the child is creepy. Not only she swears a lot but also the tone of the emails.
And what’s the purpose of these messages? Is she expecting an abandoned boy to understand that his dad left him, his mom and his siblings because he was starting a business with a woman who had just moved from Canada?
I get to 2 conclusions reading all this:
1)A man who doesn’t reply to his kid’s email after abandoning the family “because he doesn’t know what to say” is an asshole (and many other things)
2)This woman’s attitude and lack of empathy make me think she’s a little bit psycho. Something doesn’t work fine in her head… which would explain everything else (the Ittybiz and all)
WINNER!! ::   +14
[Reply]

Regrets Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:05 am
@I was here before,
What I think is that Dave knows nothing about his kid’s emails. This woman is not telling him anything, yet SHE KNOWS he has no idea what to say… sure, because she isn’t letting him say anything. The point of the messages is to reinforce her control over him.
In other words, some kind of mind control and manipulation on a massive scale is going on here, this is a cult of one. It even sounds like they are hiding out?
That is why this is scary. I hope his family can do some kind of intervention soon.
  +2
[Reply]

Poop Chute Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@Regrets, Agreed. And it’s just so wrong on both fronts. Naomi not telling Dave about the emails and Dave not writing his kids whether they wrote him first or not.
  0
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 10:02 pm

Barbara said:
I wrote a long comment that vanished into the ether. I guess too much swearing was involved.
First of all, Naomi Dunford is a serial abandoner of her own children. She sheds her kids like other people shed winter coats. Her ego feeds off of the pain she inflicts on other people. Those messages had a triumphant tone to them, she’s thumbing her nose at the entire Navarro family.
Look at the way she minimized the pain of this young boy, ” hang in there. It gets less hard”, that’s what you say to a kid who has lost a soccer game, not to a kid who has had his world destroyed.
“If anything he says — even just showing up — is just going to hand you reasons to be pissed at him, who’s helped by that?”
My God, will you listen to that! His SON will be helped by him “just showing up” you evil, twisted homunculus. Parents, well, good parents, don’t avoid their children because their children will be justly sad and angry at their abandonment.
But what would Dunford know about being a good parent? Absolutely nothing.
WINNER!! ::   +24
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 8:51 am
@Barbara,
I totally agree with your post, but I’m not sure about “Her ego feeds off the pain she inflicts on other people.”
I mean you could be right–@SD has apparently yet more to reveal later, but generally for a deeply fucked up person like Naomi, in the Real World, it isn’t that they–like–feed off the pain and misery of others, but rather that they are simply immune to it.
Again, I know I could be wrong, but in my mind, I imagine Naomi as being only dimly aware, as if from far away, of the pain and suffering of others. I.e. she has no capacity for true empathy. And so it makes it really easy for her to minimize the suffering of others to focus just on her wants and needs. That’s why it’s so easy for her to rationalize her own bullshit. It’s all good as long as it comes out as a Win for team Naomi.
From your post, I like this bit:
evil, twisted homunculus
It reminds me of Mr. Sin from Doctor Who [tardis.wikia.com]: (not sure if the image will come up)
He was the little puppet cyborg that sat atop a great stone dragon shooting laser beams at friend and foe alike while cackling madly.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:56 am
@Barbara,
You nail it with this line:
“Look at the way she minimized the pain of this young boy, ” hang in there. It gets less hard”, that’s what you say to a kid who has lost a soccer game, not to a kid who has had his world destroyed.”
Anyone who defends Naomi needs to fucking reconcile that…god or no god.
This bitch needs to answer up for all of this…no way she slips back into the dark to continue her life damaging
…and for all you assholes who trolled on her behalf and jackasses like that dick from the UNIVERSITY of MINNESOTA…where the hell are you
Where are all you life coaches who defended this evil bitch?
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 10:06 pm

Barbara said:
“Obviously I’m not reading his email,”
Anyone who can read that with a straight face…Naomi, not even a very young child would be fooled by something that apparent. I’m starting to wonder if she has him chained to a radiator. Why else does she need to speak for him? Are you afraid he won’t say the right words, Naomi?
“If that means I have to strongly recommend he stay the hell away from the lion’s den that was your house…that’s what I’m going to do.” That’s what Naomi said openly, here is what she’s undoubtedly thinking:
“If that means I have to keep filling his mind with lies and distortions, I will. If it means I have to keep him distracted from any guilt or remorse he feels for how he’s treated you, your brothers and your Mom, I will. If that means I have to try to focus his attention on his new life with me and encourage him to have no contact with you, I will.”
Vile bitch.
WINNER!! ::   +16
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 10:20 pm

Barbara said:
Naomi: “if there’s anything I can do for you, I’d love to do what I can.”
Then let his Dad go home.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

422 Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:52 am
@Barbara, better yet, she can definitely do something for Jacob which is stand in front of a moving train and rid the world of one less maggot.
  -2
[Reply]
# 11 October 2011 at 10:31 pm

Mad Max said:
“Hang in there. It gets less hard.”
That poor kid doesn’t know why his dad left him … why he won’t speak to him … why he acts like he doesn’t love him or care about him anymore.
“Hang in there …”
Jesus.
What a horrible, wretched person she is. That kid’s dad is his WORLD.
And she took him away without a second thought.
But hey, congratulations on that Tae Kwon Do belt. Sorry your dad couldn’t be there for it. We’ve just been too busy with our big launch. Hang in there…
WINNER!! ::   +12
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 12:20 am

Been There Done That said:
Dave,
Hi, we’ve never met. So here’s my story. When I was 18, I was stalked. The word ‘stalking’ hadn’t been invented yet, at least I had never heard it before. It was very very bad. To the point that I couldn’t articulate my thoughts into coherent words. I sounded like a stroke victim. One night my Dad caught me in the gun case. ‘You can’t do this’ He said. ‘NO choice’ I said. ‘You can’t kill yourself’ He said. ‘Giant step backward’ I said. I was actually planning to kill my stalker.
Twelve hours later Brother John showed up (Brother is how you refer to a family member in the priesthood). We saddled horses and rode the whole ranch twice. ‘I know why you’re here, and I don’t want to talk about it’ I said. ‘You can’t see the forest for the trees. I think you should pack up and move tonight.’ He said. NOT what I was expecting to hear.
Long story (shorter) I packed and moved away that night, and I was suddenly completely free. I could speak, I could breath. Within a week I had a room with other college kids, a job, and a nice place to board my mare.
Seventeen years ago. Now married, two awesome kids, successful manufacturing business, still riding the same old mare (not joking).
So here’s what I say to you:
Go online and delete all your public facing accounts. Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, social bookmarks, everything. Cancel all your servers. Kill your websites, back nothing up. Just kill it. Unregister all your domain names. Delete all your email accounts. Wipe your computer back to factory. Delete your contacts, go buy a new phone (new color, ring tones, number). Put everything you want in your car. Drive away and never look back. Trust me. You think the ‘whole world’ knows about this. Nobody knows. You never have to speak to those people, or visit those websites (or this one) ever again.
Go see your kids. The minute you smell their hair you will know you made the right decision. None of this nonsense even exists anymore. Because you took control and turned it off. Move on. Start breathing again, and Good Luck.
WINNER!! ::   +34
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 8:53 am
@Been There Done That,
Hey, I don’t know if it’d be constructive or not, but you might consider putting up on Letters to Dave Navarro…
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +3
[Reply]

hrmmm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:07 am
@Been There Done That,
You think the ‘whole world’ knows about this. Nobody knows. You never have to speak to those people, or visit those websites (or this one) ever again.
Go see your kids. The minute you smell their hair you will know you made the right decision.
Truer words were never spoken.
  +5
[Reply]

LisaSimpson Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
@Been There Done That, this literally made me tear up. I think this belongs on the Letters to site. Please post it for Dave’s sake.
  +2
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 12:37 am

You're so silly said:
Geezus. Dave is a jerk.
What a fool. He has no love for his children. Most men work hard to provide better lives for their families. Many men work two jobs or freelance on the side to create a better life for their loved ones.
If a guy takes a risk to start a business — it’s usually with his family in mind. Dave can scratch that one off his list of motivators.
Who will gather round his bed and hold his hand when he’s old and dying? Naomi? Yeah, right.
He and Naomi deserve to wallow in each other’s grotesqueness.
Anthony, Luke 15:11-32. Love your brother but let him go. One day he may return.
Encourage Dave’s wife to find a man who will be a good husband and role model for her kids. Divorce from Dave is justified and most churches take a much more lax stance on the matter than they did years ago.
An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. – Proverbs 31:10-31
  +2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:58 am
@You’re so silly ::
Of course :: people’s love for their kids … and the desire to provide them with a better life … can be twisted into something horrible that ends up doing the opposite.
And Anthony doesn’t have some weird thing about divorce … so he doesn’t really need your fucking advice on the matter.
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:02 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@SD, Whatever dude. Chillax. No one’s trying to rain on your parade.
LOSER!! ::   -7
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:50 am
@You’re so silly ::
Me hates the victim bashing :: and you and I have fought about it before :: several times :: yes? :: just reminding you that my teeth are always out about it. Especially on these posts where I’m so clearly trying to clean up a victim bashing mess.
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:04 am
@SD,
Are you of the belief Dave is a victim?
  -1
[Reply]

Joel Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:07 pm
@Shit Storm,
I think he is referring to Anthony and Dave’s Family
  +1
# 12 October 2011 at 12:49 am

Alley-Cat said:


I know he hasn’t responded to the email you sent him and I know he feels like a dick about it and I know he still has no idea how to reply. I mean, what’s he going to say? If he says he’s sorry, chances are you’ll say something like, “If you’re so sorry, why don’t you just come home?” If he says he loves you and misses the hell out of you, “Thanks, Dad, you’re sure not acting like it.” If he tells you that yelling at him isn’t going to get a damn thing accomplished, “You lost the right to tell me how to speak to you when you walked out on us/abandoned us/whatever.”
I have a feeling these are the very same arguments she used to persuade David not to contact his kids.
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

Chuck Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:32 am
@Alley-Cat, Excellent observation, and you can BET on it.
  +2
[Reply]

Sheila Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 11:00 am
@Alley-Cat, it’s also a sneaky way to poison the well. “You were thinking about saying these things, weren’t you? He’s not going to come back if you have THAT to say to him! In fact, he’s staying away so he won’t have to hear those awful things from you!”
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 3:03 am

Not A Psychologist said:
“I wish I had more to say. I’m so incredibly sorry you’re going through this — my parents have 8 divorces between them and it’s never pretty.”
If this were an episode of Blue’s Clues, there would be a big blue paw print on that statement.
WINNER!! ::   +16
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:09 am
@Not A Psychologist,
Please don’t imply that her situation explains away her behavior not all children of divorce end up lying, stealing and carrying on with married men.
Both Dave and Naomi are adults and are responsible for their actions.
  +2
[Reply]

Anon Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:57 am
@Shit Storm,
No, but it is very telling that she grew up in a situation where the adults around her could not seem to have real, committed relationships. It’s probably completely natural to her to see people as disposable and herself as the most important person in any given situation. She’s been referred to as a narcissist by others here, but the more we learn about her the clearer it becomes that she’s psychologically disturbed at the very least. Her communications are a veritable checklist of sociopathy.
It doesn’t excuse her by any means, but it does lend a new piece to the puzzle of how someone could leave her own children on three separate occasions and think nothing of breaking up her “best friend’s” marriage.
  +5
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
@Not A Psychologist ::
If there were eight divorces … it was probably because Damien with Breasts was poisoning them against each other and then laughing about it while she killed some kittens.
[Reply]

Kathleen Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@Not A Psychologist,
Considering her track record vis a vis the truth, I’m not sure it’s fair to assume this is accurate. In fact, it’s at least as likely that her parents are still happily married to each other. This is simply a convenient statistic she can use to relate to Dave’s son.
  +5
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 3:54 am

Allyn said:
I keyed in on this: “Naomi was just a business associate of Dave’s according to the information the Navarros had at the time.”
Imagine how the Navarro family felt when they read those FB messages in light of the above… It’s down right creepy that this adult woman would be speaking to a child this way in FB private msg. Creepy I tell ya, creeeeepy!
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 6:35 am

Cromulent said:
I started reading the first letter thinking that maybe SD had overplayed his hand. That wasn’t all that bad. I mean yes it was bad, but not worthy of the world’s most powerful fake robot megaphone bad.
Then I read the 2nd missive. Whoa. This turns my stomach as bad as some of the John Wayne Gacy prison interviews.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:05 am
@Cromulent,
Yeah. Actually, in truth, I had trouble getting myself to actually read the second letter all the way through. My brain kept trying to just skim over it without really reading each sentence and word.
Now that I think on it, that should probably be the biggest clue that Naomi is pure bullshit. I spent one summer once selling door to door working for salesmen that could persuade/con you into doing just about anything. They talked me into doing many things.
I think maybe as a result of that experience, and related ones, my brain has developed a low-level detector for when someone is trying to push Overly Persuasive Fact Free Bullshit into my brain. And the solution is to not pay attention to it. The bullshit can’t convince you to do something stupid if you’re not paying attention to it.
Poor Jacob, of course, needs no detector. It’s pretty simple: so long as his dad is not home and not even communicating with him, the situation is still FUBAR.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 8:28 am

Fake Blogger said:
How old is Jacob?
The reason I ask is because the emails ND sent were laced with some pretty adult words: shit, pissed, being a dick, etc…
How do you relate to a child speaking like this?
Not trying to get lost in the minutiae but I was reading the email thinking of it from a young kid’s perspective.
Didn’t give me a warm feeling of connection with the author…
  +3
[Reply]

SpideySenses Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 8:53 am
@Fake Blogger,
Not only that, but this is a religious family. If she wants to endear herself to them, it’s probably best not to start off on this footing. In essence, she told Dave’s son his Dad is messed up and with a woman who is using all sorts of foul language, leading them to believe there’s more to this situation than meets the eye.
And there was.
  +5
[Reply]

hrmmm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:32 am
@Fake Blogger, to be fair, Jacob used the word “shit” in his Tweet attempting to contact Dave.
I don’t really care much about swearing, but Jacob’s diction led me to believe he’s at least in his teens and fairly mature.
  0
[Reply]

FormerFriend Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 9:55 am
@hrmmm,
Also to be fair, Jacob was severely stressed at the time. As I said above, he was 15 at the time he received these communications.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

422 Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:13 am
@hrmmm, Naomi Dunford is an adult. Jacob is a child. Adults have the responsibility of treating children as children and not as adults!
No matter how precocious a child may appear to be, he or she does not have the physical brain development, let alone the psychological development that fully grown adults have.
There is such thing as psychological rape and it is crystal clear that Naomi Dunford has been grooming Jacob for just that. I hope the disgusting bitch goes straight to prison. If there’s anything I can do to make that happen I will not hesitate.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:30 am
@hrmmm,
You’re an asshole…FUCK being fair. Fuck diction and fuck you for even hinting this kid brought this on by using the word shit
This is a 15 year old who got up one day and his whole WORLD was shattered
He is 15 for crying out loud…he lost his Dad and the world as he knew it just became a lie.
So what if he used the word shit…
Your Mom and Dad are your whole world…everything you know is from them. How to love, how to judge right from wrong, how to be a man…everything
When you’re abandoned by a parent you’re concept of reality is shattered, blown to pieces. Your self worth is DESTROYED
You question everything and everyone…it’s very hard to feel safe again
To have that happen at the age of 15 is to say the LEAST is painful and confusing.
For you to say the words ‘to be fair’ in regard to this cunt whore bitch who has a DIRECT hand in ruining 3 little guys lives is fucking wrong
Go fuck yourself…you are a worthless piece of shit to defend that whore after what she did to these kids
…and yes for anyone who wants to defend adultery as between a man and a woman only – then you’re conveniently disregarding the cruel damage you do to the children like Jacob and his brothers
doubt this will get posted but you truly pissed me off for even hinting this little guy deserved this some how
Muchly debated. What do you think?   +4
[Reply]

It could happen to anyone Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:48 am
This isn’t a defence, but the language is toned down from her usual. She probably thinks it’s acceptable. (to be clear, the very fact she’s getting in touch is unacceptable)
Her language reeks of an adult trying to “play it cool” with a teen. And, even removing it from the context, it’s every bit as insincere.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 11:20 am
@Shit Storm, I can relate to that. I’ve been abandoned early in my life, and I’m getting close to 40 years old and still dealing with the sense of mistrust and abandonment issues. I suffered from chronic depression for most of life as a result, which contaminated everything, jobs, relationships, health, and spirituality. I can remember like it was yesterday the shattering of my world, everything I knew to be true, my reality pulled out from under me. It’s insanely terrifying and some people never make it out of that.
Have gone to counselors, therapists, head shrinks, took medications and even have a couple of suicide attempts in the past. Dealing with this crap has cost me so much.
Like I said, I struggle with this to this very day and you never really get over a parent abandoning you. You just learn to take it one day at a time and manage to cope the best way you can. My heart goes out to Dave’s wife and children.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
@Shit Storm,
Yeah, ok fine except..
@hrmmm’s not an asshole. All that happened was
1) @Fake Blogger made a point and
2) @hrmmm made a counter-point
That’s all.
I do not think that @hrmmm supports Naomi or anything having to do with her.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
@Wyrd ::
Agreed. @hrmmm’s not an asshole …
But I also agree with @ShitStorm that these emails are worthy of having a complete hissy fit.
Suddenly the fake robot calling Ms. Dunford “cow mouth” not seeming quite so offensive.
[Reply]

hrmmm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@shit storm – oh go fuck yourself. I was trying to deduce what Jacob’s age was – there is a difference between 11 and 15.
Did I ever defend Naomi’s choice of words? No. Learn to fucking read.
  -2
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
@hrmmm
You said the following:
“Fake Blogger, to be fair, Jacob used the word “shit” in his Tweet attempting to contact Dave.
I don’t really care much about swearing, but Jacob’s diction led me to believe he’s at least in his teens and fairly mature.”
Who are you referring to be fair to? Naomi?
Fair meaning Jacob used the word shit so his fathers mistress has the right do a tap dance on the kids SOUL
That evil bitch is playing with that young mans heartstrings…she is in FULL manipulation mode
Do you think it’s fair this bitch even spoke to this kid
Read that letter again and ask yourself if a confused young man who just got abandoned by his Dad should even be hearing from his fathers mistress
Fair to whom? Naomi…that bitch is damn lucky Daves family is christian and not from my neighborhood
Jacob didn’t deserve to even get a letter from that bitch let alone apologize to the likes of you for using the word shit
  +1
[Reply]

hrmmm Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@, Well that clears it up. You have proven definitively that I am a…what was that again? Oh yes, “a worthless piece of shit.”
You’re awesome.
  +4

Poop Chute Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:24 pm
@hrmmm, And that tweet with “shit” in it was to D-A-V-E. Didn’t Naomi say she hasn’t been reading his e-mails? The kid was 15. He could have said “fuck you, you blood-sucking horse-fucking bitch, leave me alone with your creepy shit,” and it wouldn’t matter. An adult communicating with a 15-year-old kid stays adult. Considering that it is a religious family, “shit” was probably the best the poor guy could come up with in his communication Naomi supposedly never saw that she was/wasn’t now responding to in kind.
Or something like that.
  +6
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 8:34 am

SpideySenses said:
What I find most disturbing is that every time I think there’s more to this story, another even more disturbing element comes along.
  +3
[Reply]

LisaSimpson Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
@SpideySenses, seriously! It gets deeper and darker.
  +2
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 8:50 am

Wyrd said:
Well there’s one part of the second letter that it’s tempting to take at face value because, if it’s true, it would explain so very much:
Naomi letter #2
my parents have 8 divorces between them
Eight? Eight? Seriously? Eight!?
My mind boggles even just trying to work out the logistics on that one. Eight?
That should be her new nickname–Naomi Eight-Divorces Dunford, Family Breaker Extraordinaire. But she’ll only provide the special “family breaking” service to you if you are a “friend” of hers. Think of it as a fringe benefit. Or something.
———————
Really, I can’t decide what to make of the letters yet. I can envision various different underlying motives and mental states on the part of Naomi and Dave, but I know that I don’t yet have all the information that @SD is planning to reveal. It’s like trying to connect the points on a graph–I don’t yet know if the best model is a line or a curve. Based on what @SD said, the best fit to the data points will probably look pretty weird–maybe a cork screw or something.
I’m curious to know to what extent Dave is/was aware of his son’s attempts to communicate with him. I mean, I know what Naomi said since I just read it. I still don’t know to what extent she lies on purpose and to what extent she simply fabricates out of false/delusional beliefs about herself and the world around her.
My tendency is to always assume people are making mis-statements on accident or through faulty perception except in those cases where it clearly must be a lie or when they plainly admit to lying.
Leaving your wife and kids should never be “just a cost of doing business.”
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +6
[Reply]

Not an immer Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:37 am
@Wyrd,
I don’t for one second believe that 8 divorces bullshit…It’s just her way of one-upping the poor kid, “You think you’ve got problems? My parents had eight divorces- don’t you feel sorry for me? Aren’t your problems miniscule compared to mine?” She’s so sick- I’m sure that in her mind, she thought she was being nice, trying to bond with the kid and persuade him to see the world the way she does. She probably had fantasies of being the goddess (one day, if he was a good boy) that allowed him to see his father again (but probably not until he agreed that his father did the right thing and that the rest of the family was scum).
The only good thing is that she is so bad at normal relationships, so awkward at dealing with normal wants and needs, that she couldn’t possibly establish any sort of hold over a normal child.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

Her Father Reply:
October 23rd, 2011 at 10:30 pm
@Not an immer,
The actual number of divorces, as long as she was around, was three — add two long after she left.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
@Her Father,
Wait…are you really her father? And, if so, how did you find us here?
  +1
[Reply]

Her Father Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
@Sundog,
Its called Google, and a father’s continued interest in his daughter in spite of her nefarious actions, and an attempt to keep aprised of how my grandchildren are doing. After all, I believe I was her first victim and, in spite of my continued efforts to inform society that she was a psychopath, it chose to believe her countless sob stories and lies that cast me as the “bad guy”. For anybody’s information, psychopathic behaviour does not kick in until the subject reaches 12 or 13 years of age — and then all hell breaks loose.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
@Her Father,
Sorry to be skeptical, but a) I didn’t realize this site ranked for her name and b) I’m pretty sure I heard an interview where she claimed you were dead :(
  +2

Her Father Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
@Sundog,
And, of course, you need to believe everything she claimed in an interview. I, for one, am not sorry to still be alive in spite of my 72 years, cancer, strokes and, of course, Naomi and her mother. Anything else?
  +4

Sundog Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 6:25 pm
@Her Father, Not trying to give you a hard time, buddy. Just surprised to see you here. Chill out? Sorry if I offended you somehow.
  +1

SD Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 6:36 pm
@Sundog ::
This site does “rank” for her … and that’s not even how it works anymore. If you followed Naomi Dunford in any way … you saw saltydroid.info in the last month or so.
And did you just site to her again? Ha! NEVER site a liar … never means never … you will always be wrong. Pathological liars always lie. I know it’s scary to think about it … but it’s true … ALWAYS.
Anywayz :: I think it is him … seems like a pretty interesting chap too.
@Her Father ::
Hi … thanks for commenting.
If you’re gonna hang with us I hope you come and tell me some interesting stories. I love interesting stories.
She really needs to be stopped … for everyone’s sake … including her own.

Her Reply:
October 24th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
@sundog,
No problem with your comments. I guess it was the first time that I had heard I was dead. Like I said, three strokes, etc. haven’t killed me yet and neither will this saga. At least these episodes have gone a long way to correcting my friend’s (and the other grandparents) perceptions of me. Nobody would believe me when I labeled my daughter a sociopath, especially her lovers, husbands and their families. Hopefully, when my grandchildren are older they may have a better impression of their grandfather. Right now they are young and believe they need to believe their mother and grandmother.
  +4

SpideySenses Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 10:45 am
@Wyrd,
“Eight? Eight? Seriously? Eight!?”
I’m in no way justifying anything but now we can see why Naoimi’s own kids are so disposable to her.
  +2
[Reply]

General Unicorn aka Rock Your Dave! Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 1:37 am
@Her Father,
Have you ever heard of any time she was truly successful with her ShittyBiz??? I’m sure you heard the clip where she says she’s rich while trying to defraud people…
  +3
[Reply]

Her Father Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 7:50 am
@General Unicorn aka Rock Your Dave!,
My only source for information about her alleged success has been the same as yours — by reading her blog. I have not communicated with her or since early 2008 at which time she was conning me on another matter. Attempts to leave comments on her blog or her “guest appearances” were not successful. Until I read it on this blog I had no idea that she had left her husband and Jack. I also have no knowledge that she and Jamie were ever married.
  +2
[Reply]

Barbara Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
@Her Father,
Hello, I was wondering if you’d be interested in setting the record straight on some of the conflicting claims Naomi has made concerning her earlier life.
Naomi has said that she was a high school drop-out, living in a homeless shelter with her first child while still a teenager. But Naomi has also said that she attended the Burgess Hill School for Girls in West Sussex whilst a teen.
I’m highly skeptical of her biographical claims because they so often seem to defy reason. It seems rather hard to believe that she could fall so hard so fast, from pupil at a day school to a homeless shelter (and with a newborn infant at that!), in perhaps a year’s time.
I’d really like to hear which of those stories is accurate, assuming either one is, of course.
Thank you.
  +3
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 11:13 pm
@Her Father,
Hi,
Congratulations on still being alive at 72 and on the Internet!
Me, I’m 35, but assuming I get to be 72 one day, that’s exactly what I plan to do–hang out online all day long.
I’m sorry that she did whatever bad things it is that she did to you.
I would be curious to know how-what-ever much you wish to tell of Naomi’s past insofar as it would be relevant to getting a more complete biographical picture of her and her actions, and ultimately, her thought process.
You said the sociopathy or psychopathy tends to reveal at age 12 to 13. So, that sort of vaguely implies that maybe that was the case with Naomi. Did you have a specific memory from the past in mind?
When did you start to figure out she really didn’t register emotion the way everybody else did? Has she ever been evaluated by a professional psychologist regarding a possible diagnosis of psychopathy or sociopathy?
Thank you for writing here on this site. With luck, maybe some good will come from it. If nothing else, at least you have some folks here prepared to listen to your side of the story.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +1
[Reply]

Her Father Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 10:02 am
@Wyrd,
I would hope that when you reach 72, you plan to do more than hang out online all day long. I write and edit books and blogs, design web sites and teach writing to seniors; design and manufacture unique mechanisms for ventriloquists; and regularly cook up a storm for my close friends who appreciate good food. What is missing from my life is any contact with my three grandsons. Applying the “pay it forward” philosophy, I have “adopted” a few surrogate grandchildren who help me fulfill a need for “family”.
I don’t believe more information about Naomi’s past would really help except to remind the readers that until psychopathic behaviors kick in at 12 or 13, there is no way to identify a psychopath before hand. Most people attribute conscience actions to the pre-teen without realizing most of their actions and reactions are rote – conditioned behavior that satisfies parents and teachers. When they start to think for themselves, and evaluate the events in their lives, emerging psychopaths do so without conscience and accordingly proceed to make their lives as rewarding as possible without consideration of the implications for others. (Why should they wash the dishes when someone else will do them? Why cook a meal when restaurants deliver? Why get up and feed the baby when the father will?)
For an insight into the psychopath, read Hare’s book Without Conscience.
If there is any message for other victims or potential victims it is as follows: There is no cure or therapy for psychopaths. Doctors or religious types who claim they can “cure” the psychopath are most likely psychopaths themselves. As much as it may hurt, abandon them! Get them out of your life! Learn to get on with your life without them! Keep in mind that the wonderful child of 10 is no more!
The solution in Europe for centuries for those who could afford it, was to send the psychopath to a military or strict boarding school and hope the psychopath became successful as a military commander or a professional (most often they went into law) OR the family sent them off to North America to become remittance men. “Don’t darken our door anymore and we will remit an annual allowance to whatever country you settle in.” Since the condition has been found to be mainly genetic, it is no wonder that North America has suffered at the hands of so many psychopaths since so many remittance men (and women) settled in the USA, Canada and Australia.
@Barbara
Naomi was a brilliant child, earned the Scholar of the Year award at Burgess Hill School for Girls in England; skipped a year in school; was admitted to special school for exceptional students here in Canada; and at 12 won a national silver medal for writing an artificial intelligence application for the computer.
It is true that she entered a homeless shelter with her first child. She was in the process of leaving her first husband and I believe knew that she was not really welcome in my life.
The “stories” are accurate but, as I have said about her and her mother, “They do not tell all of the truths that need to be told!” For example, she must have had many of her readers sobbing at her story of “losing” her second child. What she failed to mention was that she gave him up for adoption. (There were no inlaws or a husband to do the work) Getting at the truth can be a daunting task – and hardly worth the effort.
  +1

Her Father Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 11:40 am
@Wyrd,
Regarding analysis — she would not go near a professional. Her mother had gone through ten psychiatrists before her. Most psychiatrists refuse to treat psychopaths who tend to treat the entire process as some kind of game, are very exhausting to the psychiatrist, and often the psychiatrists finds that they are in need of professional help if they get “too close” to the “patient”. Do not forget that most psychopaths are extremely intelligent, cunning and manipulative people. For most of them, they see a professional as just another person to con — and they are very good at it.
  +3

stoic Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 2:49 am
@Her Father,
Thanks for this, the hardest lesson for anyone with the misfortune to have close connection to a psychopath:
“If there is any message for other victims or potential victims it is as follows: There is no cure or therapy for psychopaths. Doctors or religious types who claim they can “cure” the psychopath are most likely psychopaths themselves. As much as it may hurt, abandon them! Get them out of your life! Learn to get on with your life without them!”
As much as it may hurt, cutting the connection, like cutting off a gangrenous limb, is the only solution if you want to live a sane life.
  +3
# 12 October 2011 at 9:22 am

what?? said:
There is nothing contained in these messages that is not disgusting, manipulative, and disturbingly inappropriate. She’s right about one thing, though. Her life is ‘incredibly pathetic’.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 10:40 am

Jane Galt said:
ND is a conniving, unethical, lying, sack of dung, no question.
But Dave Navarro is worse. Anyone who abandons his children and then has the woman he dumped their mother for, run interference for him, is the lowest of the low.
Let’s face it people, Dave Navarro is NOT a victim.
The only victims are his family.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Barbara Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
@Jane Galt,
How could you possibly know what has gone on in Dave Navarro’s mind and heart? No one here has ever said that he was justified in abandoning his family. That is reprehensible. But I’m at least willing to entertain the idea that Dunford has exercised a form of influence over him, a type of coercive persuasion perhaps, that Dave Navarro was too weak to resist.
I do think it’s within the realm of possibility that Dave Navarro, while not a victim, has been manipulated by Naomi Dunford to act in a way that is not in accordance with his true self.
I don’t know. But you don’t either.
I want Dave to wake up, throw off the sticky web strands that are holding him, remember his wonderful family, and to return home. He can be forgiven, as his brother has made clear. If Naomi lets him near a computer I’d like him to read Anthony and Alison’s words of love and forgiveness.
Go home Dave. It’s not too late, no matter what Naomi has said.
  +5
[Reply]

Jane Galt Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 12:32 am
@Barbara,
I have no sympathy for anyone who abandons his or her children.
You’re right, I don’t know what Dave has gone through.
And I don’t really care.
I know people with truly horrendous childhoods who manage to do right by their children.
Naomi makes a great villain and I make NO excuses for her. She is complicit in the wrongs being done to Dave’s family. And I’m sure her family is suffering just as well.
But villainess that she is, Dave let her into his family’s life and hasn’t done anything to remedy the situation.
Unless he is truly mentally ill, then he is responsible for the damage.
  +1
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
@Jane Galt ::
He is a victim … twice.
But the point at which he starts victimizing others … that stops mattering.
A victim can recover himself … make things right … and move on.
Naomi Dunford :: on the other hand :: is a predator … who will never change. The best case scenario for her life is that she gets stopped.
So they aren’t even in the same league.
[Reply]

You're so silly Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
@SD,
So yeah — I do feel pity for Dave. However …
*He let Naomi write extremely manipulative emails to his kid(s)*
Unforgivable, no. Unforgettable, yes.
I listened to one of Dave’s presentations — he is not a dumb man. Not nearly. No one would dare lay his photo atop an image of a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome to excuse his behavior.
No one knows for sure, but I would bet that Dave and Naomi probably consulted and more likely wrote the emails you posted together.
Naomi may take credit for passing him the ball, but he gets full credit for running with it.
If Naomi is a predator, then Dave was a predator in training.
BTW, about a previous comment I left, I identify strongly with Anthony Jr.’s world view. I’ve been through divorce. It’s hard and painful on its own. It’s tormenting to have your own belief system compound that pain.
I meant to convey empathy for the Navarro’s left standing in the ruins of Dave’s poor and selfish choices. Given PZ’s recent screed railing against Anthony Jr.’s supposed fundamentalist stand against divorce, I can see how this was a hot button. I wasn’t thinking of it that way.
Maybe you’re right, Anthony doesn’t need advice. In any event this was not the proper forum to voice support for his family on an orthogonal issue.
  +4
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
@You’re so silly ::
Actually :: I hope this is the first time he’s seen that bullshit.
And yeah :: I’m not making any excuses for Dave’s bad actions … there aren’t any.
“Predator in training” is probably not right though. There’s a massive gap between the psychos who can win {Naomi} … and the psychos who have no hope of winning {Dave}.
[Reply]

Regrets Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
@You’re so silly, you said “I would bet that Dave and Naomi probably consulted and more likely wrote the emails you posted together.”
My gut reaction is to strongly disagree. There is manipulative language in those emails I find very alarming. But if you haven’t been personally mind-controlled by someone close to you (as I have)you might dismiss it.
But he certainly is not blameless. His kids and his responsibilities should have had some hold over him and he let that all go for… this?? He had some weakness that she exploited to the max.
  +5
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 10:45 am

Wyrd said:
People here have been addressing to Dave directly. I’d like to address Naomi directly instead…
Ok, a few more points from Naomi Letter #2:
I’m pretty conflicted.
To Naomi: I can believe that. Except I think what you mean is more like “I don’t like what I’m doing, but nevertheless I’m not about to stop. Writing this letter is my token gesture to allow me to continue to rationalize my behavior.”
I mean, I have a hell of a lot of loyalty to your dad. We’ve been working together for years and are finally reaching some decent traction.
To Naomi: Uh huh. And all it took for that traction was for him to quit his job, leave his wife and kids, and basically devote himself to the IM-MMO unicorn dream 24/7. Wow. And his website’s not doing too much these days either.
He’s probably my best friend, which is a show of how incredibly pathetic my life is.
Well, not to put to fine a point on it, but, um, yeah. Yeah, I’d say “pathetic” is an apt description. I mean, if tihs letter is Truth then you… what… you went all the way from Canada to Georgia or somewheres? IF that is the case, then I imagine it went something like this:
What Naomi might have been thinking about a week before moving:
Ok. No money. Like bank acct is on negative a lot. What to do, what to do, what to do? Well… there’s always my “good friend” Dave. He’s cool and he’s stuck by me many times and he seems to have his shit together a lot more than I do. Maybe I’ll ask him for help. Yeah. That shoud work. He has more money in the bank than I do anywayz.
So.. and again this just a total BS recreation in my mind that could be totally false and not look anything like what @SD is able to reveal later.. then Naomi would call up Dave and basically beg for help. Of course at this point, what Dave probably should have done was say, “I’m sorry there isn’t anything I can really do. I could help you find a homeless shelter or something.” But of course Naomi wouldn’t go for something like that. And by this point, Dave had already had his most core beliefs undermined over a process of years. So when he hears a cry for help and he rationalizes that he has the chance to work with “one of the greats” (it takes a lot of doublethink to hold the contradictory beliefs that 1) Naomi is broke and 2) Naomi is one of the greats, but people belief stupid crap like that all the time, it’s easy)
It’s kind of in my best interests to keep him on the rails and not constantly exposed to more drama than he needs to be.
To Naomi again: I can believe that you believe that, Naomi. Easily. But, IMHO, what would really be in your best interests, and everyone elses for that matter, would be for you to go get a McJob, a tiny aptartment with no cable or Internet, and start paying out of pocket to see a Real Professionally Licensed Mental Healthcare Provider. I’m not talking about another damn “life coach” I mean something close to an actual psychologist. Of course. If you have Narcisistic Personality Disorder as I suspect, it might not do any good. :-/
Disclaimer: No, I don’t have any expertise in the mental health profession. Yes, I’m just doing the “armchair psychology” thing and I could be totally wrong. *shrug*
Also, I came up with this wild-crazy idea that Naomi ran herself out of money, and that idea of mine is based on no solid evidence. I’m just making a crazy guess based on:
1) her 2007 chat with David where she claimed she had less money in the bank than Dave did
2) her concern about not wanting to have to pay a bunch of taxes (maybe because she couldn’t afford to?)
3) the fact that, when I look around at most folks’ IM-MMO scam sites, for all their efforts to gain SEO, and for all their vague claims of having helped mucho numbers of people to succeed in their chosen niche, when I look at the gadgets that count the number of retweets or facebook likes, it’s almost always in the single digits. Of course, I understand Naomi’s IttyBiz has way lots of pageview (or whatever), and I understand @SD has categorized her as A-team, but
4) apparently, according to the 2007 chat log, and also confirmed by @SD her site was hacked and was down for several months (i.e. the URL redirected to somewhere having nothing to do with IttyBiz) it’s easy to imagine that her “business” has never fully recovered from that. I mean, lots of actual legitimate businesses might struggle after that too.
5) Finally, Naomi runs her whole life in such an obviously crappy, slip-shod, fly-by-night, seat of the pants way. I mean, in the Real World, sometimes a person can do Bad Things and get away with it, but the ones that get away with it have lots of hierarchical structure separating the powerful leader from the day-to-day ugliness of running the scam. It isn’t clear to me that Naomi has any of that. And when you combine doing-bad-things with running-your-life-super-crappy-like-a-damn-jerry-springer-episode, well… in that case the Bad Things will inevitably catch up with you.
Question is, Naomi: how many innocents will you take down with you?
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +5
[Reply]

GV Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
@Wyrd, “He’s probably my best friend, which is a show of how incredibly pathetic my life is.
Well, not to put to fine a point on it, but, um, yeah. Yeah, I’d say “pathetic” is an apt description. … ”
I agree, pathetic is close. The passage you quoted was the one part that stuck with me. If she’s trying to mediate, why would she say she was pathetic in that “[your dad] is probably my best friend” and that makes her pathetic.
I hope I’m clear with this. I mean who wants to hear from the person their father ran off with that THAT VERY PERSON considers herself pathetic?
Naomi? Please, do this kid a favor and shut the fuck up! And tell his dad to go home.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Poop Chute Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
@GV, I think it makes Dave look terribly pathetic in his son’s own eyes. Naomi is so obviously pathetic, for her to say having him as her “only” friend is pathetic is like the ultimate triple-slam…right in his son’s face.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

GV Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
@Poop Chute, That’s exactly what I mean. Thank you! That poor boy. She should be ashamed of herself.
Screwing people out of their money is bad enough; wiping part of his childhood is downright devilish.
  +4
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 10:54 am

Mazeman said:
Naomi Dunford:
If anything he says — even just showing up and being emotionally present and telling you what happened and why — is just going to hand you reasons to be pissed at him, who’s helped by that?
Hello?? Huh?? Are you kidding me?? Seriously?!?!?!
It’s called being a “DAD”, taking responsibility for your reactions, seeking reconciliation, showing care and compassion for your son/family.
And you ask “who’s helped by that?”!!! I’m seeing RED right now even more so because I am a father of three!! Naomi your levels of selfishness and narcissism become more astounding all the time!
As a parent, you sacrifice for your family because that is part of a parent’s role. When you bring a life into this world, you have responsibility for it. It is never about what is easiest for you.
Dave: Man up. Go see your family. No, it won’t be easy. It will likely be one of the hardest and most painful things you have yet done in your life. Remember, all reconciliation begins with the first step.
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

SpideySenses Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
@Mazeman,
Naomi didn’t sacrifice her kids, she dumped them like bad sushi so she won’t understand about sacrifices and responsibility. She can’t see past her own narcissism to care how it affects others.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 12:49 pm

Not Frank Kernal said:
This is OT, but too funny not to share. Frank Korn Kernal has a new boiler room scam broiling :) and he’s giving his super duper uber secret tactical techniques to make people mail money to you on command IF, BIG IF…you sign some bogus NDA which he gives after you give a fake email in the opt-in form here:
http://www.inappropriatemarketing.com/?page_id=270
no signature required either, just give them your email and mail it back and he sends you the secret webinar link to register where he will share (for free, lol) his super stealth tactics, then undoubtedly sell you private coaching for your first born child.
{yawn} – Hope the droid exposes this one quick :)
  +1
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 1:26 pm

Barbara said:
When you think of the stability in the Navarro children’s lives you think of their Mom and their Uncle, this past year they’ve had the sole responsibility for these kids, no help from Dave.
So, the evil spider bitch tries to not-so-subtly undermine a crucial figure in this young man’s life:
“your uncle has been in touch with me via my blog as well. I know about the website that your uncle has created, and as far as I’m aware, your dad’s lawyer has advised him not to get in touch with your uncle in case it goes to a libel suit”
“If that means I have to strongly recommend he stay the hell away from the lion’s den that was your house circa The Great Anthony And His Car Ambush Of 2010, well, that’s what I’m going to do.”
She’s so transparent. She’s trying so hard to place the blame for the uproar in Jacob’s life not on his Dad, or her, but on his Uncle Anthony.
Did you see her extrude that sticky thread? Anthony has libelled your dad, Anthony has ambushed your dad….it’s all Anthony’s fault, the lawyer said stay away from Anthony…
This is how Naomi works, lies and innuendos, constantly attempting to undermine her prey’s sense of stability. I’m sure that Jacob was smart enough to see right through this attempt of Naomi’s to blacken Anthony.
Naomi, your day of reckoning will come.
WINNER!! ::   +18
[Reply]

Alley-Cat Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
@Barbara,
Of course you are right. ND is trying to drive a wedge in between Antony and Jacob.
Whether the marriage is over or not I’d like to say to David, talk to your kids mate and explain wtf’s going on, especially to the little ones.
If you don’t they will start to feel that they are in some way to blame and that by not seeing them, you are punishing them because they’ve done something wrong.
Basically, man the fuck up and face the consequences of your actions.
WINNER!! ::   +12
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
@Barbara ::
What makes it extra awesome is that if things continue to deteriorate financially for Alison :: she and the kids might have to move in with Evil Uncle Anthony and his libelous car ambushes.
[Reply]

Alley-Cat Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
@SD,
Well, perhaps that is something that deserves a ‘Donate’ button.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 2:02 pm

BananaTaco said:
Salty/Jason,
Don’t know if I can stomach reading any more of ND’s self-indulgent ranting (what freelance blogger’s call ‘copy’). These messages are disgusting. She writes everything with a smug, self-satisfied sense of false bravado…It’s like getting an email from a TMZ teleprompter — totally inappropriate and vile language aimed at a CHILD who simply wants his daddy back.
Naomi, you are an A1 cunt.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 2:25 pm

Davebo said:
I’m still trying to figure out why she chooses to use that picture of her with the pouty lips. I realize that it’s hard to put lipstick on a pig, but at least do one of those caricature’s that the IM crowd seems to love.
  +2
[Reply]

Barbara Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
@Davebo,
Because that’s part of Naomi’s come-on, the faux femme fatale, the sexually available at all times woman. I fail to see the appeal but judging from the comments of the Michael Martine and Tim Brownson types it seemed to work for her.
Do you know what Michael Martine’s comment was when Dunford wrote about squatting under a table urinating into a juice pitcher? Direct quote:
Michael Martine:
“Naomi, that’s fucking brilliant!”
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

SpideySenses Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:18 pm
@Davebo, She calls it her “BlowJob Barbie” picture. I shit you not. https://twitter.com/#!/NaomiDunford/status/10381245237
Her sheeple thought it was ever so clever and adorable.
  +6
[Reply]

Barbara Reply:
October 12th, 2011 at 6:54 pm
@SpideySenses,
Precisely! It’s clever and adorable when Naomi prances around talking about blow jobs and shopping with her toddler for vibrators but if anyone else points out any of Naomi’s shenanigans they are immediately branded as an evil misogynist, a woman-hating abuser who threatens to squash their beloved whore with the heart of gold.
I cannot tell you how repulsive an experience reading her blog can be…one minute she’s talking about her adorable toddler and the next minute it’s dildos and tantric sex chairs and getting drunk and screwing in the middle of the day.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 2:52 pm

RT said:
Man that picture is ripping me up … seriously how can anything be more important???
When my wife and I had our first son my dad told me that I would never be richer than I was at that moment. We were both trying to finish undergraduate degrees and were flat broke at the time … but he was right.
Dave I hope you see that pic, read this post, and it rips you up to the point of change. Those are some happy looking kids … kids deserve to be happy in their family.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 10:24 pm

General Unicorn said:
Rock your day, Dave!
Way to go…
You really are the Launch Coach: You launched your family overboard when they became too much of a burden for your MMO jerkoff fantasy. You launched your life down the toilet like a compacted loaf of fecal matter to get in on the ShittyBiz, leaving behind a completely legit job. And now you’ve launched your kid’s world into total confusion with that trailer trash thing you just couldn’t live without’s lies.
Awesome! I’m going to make a 7 day frauduct for junkies who aren’t satisfied with the pace they’re self-destructing at. It will all be focused around your expert techniques and doucheing up your life and the ones who love you. Notice I didn’t say “the ones you love.” Think about it.
It’s people like you that make me think the Mormons might be onto something despite their out there beliefs.
  +6
[Reply]
# 12 October 2011 at 11:47 pm

Disgusted said:
I’m now even more disgusted at the so-called “people” who dug in their heels to support and enable this vile, sickening manipulation. The retweeters, the slimy bloggers, and the money grubbing scumbags in the circle of sleaze.
Even after plenty of damning shit became known, some of them continued to sing the spider’s disgusting praises.
Those slimeballs deserve public accountability for being willing participants in helping Naomi Dunford shit on innocent victims.
  +4
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 2:21 am

Two Hats One Car said:
SD
I love the website – it’s kinda addictive.
Love the information on these silly buggers running internet marketing scams.
I even understand the persona that SD has programmed in (CURSE, ABUSE, REBUKE, BLEEP).
But I am concerned. I know nothing about the people involved in this story (I live thousands of miles away). It was interesting when it involved the business side of things. But this in depth look into the torture of a broken family seems off topic.
I appreciate the SD’s operator may be involved some way in advice for certain people behind the scenes, but has the caustic glare of SD been moved in too close to these people?
I am getting uncomfortable reading about the tragic circumstances that this family is in and I wonder whether this belongs on a blog about internet scams.
Where is the Syndicate these days? If the venomous eyelense of SD is concentrating too much on certain personal lives rather than them, who knows what they will get up to?
Regards
TWOC
Muchly debated. What do you think?   0
[Reply]

Anon Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 8:38 am
@Two Hats One Car, Do you think SD would have his lens on this if it had nothing to do with the Syndicate A-team?
  +2
[Reply]

Two Hats One Car Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 8:57 am
@Anon, who can say what goes through circuits of the Commodore 64 that runs SD? :)
The stuff being discusses here is *really* personal to one poor family and an associated sorry bunch of misfits.
And there are kids too (with photos).
It just feels “tabloidy”. Icky. Possibly in bad taste.
Just my two cents, I believe in free speech so SD can do what he likes, it is his website. It just makes me uncomfortable.
TWOC
Muchly debated. What do you think?   0
[Reply]

Whatthewhat Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
@Two Hats One Car, My impression is that the salty one is in contact with Anthony and Allison. I would be willing to bet a hefty sum that they know these articles were going to be posted. And I’d also be willing to bet that if Allison asked salty to stop he would. Besides, where do you think he is getting his information from.
I think Allison must be an extremely brave and kind woman to be willing to share her family’s story.
  +6
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
@Two Hats One Car ::
If you’re going to concern troll :: you shouldn’t actually use the word “concern” … kind of ruins it.
It’s about to get way more personal … in spite of my best efforts to avoid it … the family has become part of the story. Luckily it’s a smart and brave family who care about all the other families that are also being ruined by this madness.
Anthony Navarro suggested that I make every 10th story or so about a ruined family … a pretty good suggestion actually.
And hey if you don’t like it … you can always fuck off.
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 14th, 2011 at 3:46 am
@SD, Not a concern troll (I have no interest in derailing, stifling, or controlling any dialogue that goes on here). Not everybody who has a different point of view is a troll.
If this what needs to be said to get the full story out, fair enough. It is hard reading though and the next chapter in this story is even worse.
Only expressing my opinion.
I will take your advice and fuck off now. Nice.
  -2
[Reply]

J.T. Reply:
October 14th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
@Two Hats One Car, Your comments were DEFINITELY diversionary trolling. No doubt about it. Even an amateur psychologist could see that.
  0
[Reply]

Two Hats One Car Reply:
October 16th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
@J.T., You know what JT – I tried giving my opinion. I have no axe to grind. I live in Europe for fucks sake. What the hell do I have to gain by trolling this site?
So I am going to take SD’s like. If you don’t like my opinion or agree with me, fine. You can always fuck off. I won’t be commenting here again.
Moron.
  -1
[Reply]

Two Hats One Car Reply:
October 16th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
@J.T., You know what JT – I tried giving my opinion. I have no axe to grind. I live in Europe for fucks sake. What the hell do I have to gain by trolling this site?
So I am going to take SD’s advice. If you don’t like my opinion or agree with me, fine. You can always fuck off. I won’t be commenting here again.
Moron.
  0
[Reply]

Two Hats One Car Reply:
October 14th, 2011 at 3:47 am
@SD, Not a concern troll (I have no interest in derailing, stifling, or controlling any dialogue that goes on here). Not everybody who has a different point of view is a troll.
If this what needs to be said to get the full story out, fair enough. It is hard reading though and the next chapter in this story is even worse.
Only expressing my opinion.
I will take your advice and fuck off now. Nice.
  -2
[Reply]

Phil Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
@Two Hats One Car,
“I wonder whether this belongs on a blog about internet scams.”
Do you think American Dave would have ever met the Canadian Spider if it were’t for…the “internet scamdustry?”
This is an incredibly important story and entirely relevant to the big picture. It is an aspect of “the big lie” that is very real and consequential. Most people never hear or think about “collateral” risks when they first tender up their credit cards and launch themselves blindly into the “internet marketing” cesspool.
The victims chose to share their story.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 6:31 am

BananaTaco said:
She’s launched her new newsletter recently, and she just posted a couple of days ago. So, who do we have any ‘traction’ on stopping this nutcase?
  +3
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 10:45 am

422 said:
To all those voices who are concerned about this blog becoming a tabloid or going off topic, I say be patient. The business of scamming runs deep and bleeds over into all areas of people’s lives. People are not just losing money here, they are losing their souls, in case you haven’t noticed.
Look closely, read between the lines, and most importantly, think about how you personally may have experienced parallels to all the stuff that’s going on here. Then the picture starts to become clearer.
  +3
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 11:39 am

Barbara said:
When I was reading Dunford’s blog I became increasingly convinced that she is a textbook case of Borderline Personality Disorder. If anyone reading this has had the misfortune of dealing with a person with this disorder in their own life they’ll readily recognize Naomi Dunford as having BPD.
When she writes to Dave’s son: “I see him every day” and “The very nature of the situation necessitates my involvement” she’s exhibiting BPD traits. Her exaggerated sense of importance, that her involvement is crucial, is typical. She sees herself as the major player in this drama, everyone else, (Dave, Alison, their three kids), are just supporting actors. Borderlines sense of entitlement is boundless, as is their sense of self-importance.
Reading her blog she would speak of her oldest son, who she has abandonded, and blithely say that he was better off with her ex-in-laws. While this is undoubtedly true, he’d be better off with a stable home, it was her casual brushing off of what would be heartbreaking to most moms that was so telling. She has a pattern of unstable relationships with partners, children and friends. Borderlines idealize and then devalue people. It’s possible to see that at her blog, when she said to a woman that she had failed to keep an appointment with, ( and who had asked for her $600 to be refunded), “Don’t you know who I AM?” That’s typical borderline behaviour, intense out of proportion anger.
Also typical is reading comments of people who have become disillusioned with Naomi, they say in the beginning they liked her but then she revealed the less savory aspects of her personality, i.e. the temper tantrums, the dishonesty, the shady financial dealings. Borderlines are often charming in the (very) short term but they don’t wear well, to put in mildly.
There’s a chilling book “Siren’s Dance” by Anthony Walker, M.D. that tells his story of marriage to a borderline. It should be required reading for young men of a certain age. Intelligence won’t necessarily save a person from a BPD on the prowl, this man is a physician. It’s a cautionary tale and is a fascinating read. If you are at all interested in BPD I highly recommend reading it.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

LisaSimpson Reply:
October 13th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@Barbara, Hit the nail on the head. BPD all the way. I have a feeling that a lot of the Ittybiz circle have some form of it. They feed off one another and increase their self importance. They believe their own bullshit.
  +4
[Reply]

SD Reply:
October 20th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
@Barbara ::
I wonder though :: are there stories about people with BPD who rise up in predatory social hierarchies?
Someone below suggests bi-polar … but I’d ask the same question about that.
If the game is manipulation … then psychopathy gives you tremendous advantage … where most of the other less consistent pathologies will be a tremendous weakness.
[Reply]

Lanna Reply:
October 20th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
@Barbara, LisaSimpson and SD,
Somewhere along the way, I was taught that BPD is a generic catch-all diagnosis handed out to folks who don’t qualify for a more specific disorder. Has anyone else heard this view? It hinges on the idea that these folks’ personalities are bad enough to screw up their personal or work relationships and seek (or be sent for) professional help, so successful they’re not.
Bipolar could account for the months of silence followed by sudden activity. Some creative types (painters, musicians, authors) with bipolar are successful, cranking out hits during their up-swings. I’d tag this one a possible co-morbidity.
My money’s on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I think Naomi’s 9 for 9 (only 5 needed for diagnosis) on the DSM-IV checklist on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
  +3
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 12:43 am
@Lanna @Barbara @LisaSimpson @SD,
I’m not very familiar with BPD (though I’m sure I’ll be wikipedia-ing it tomorrow), but from what I think I understand, it’s sort of as @Lanna says: The BPD individual is just barely screwed up enough to interfere with forming and maintaining proper, healthy relationships.
The NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) person OTOH, is way messed up. So I like that as a better fit…
Of course, @SD may be right on the psychopathy (I was just now looking up and finding that “psychopathy” and “sociopathy” are not necessarily synonyms as I thought.)
Or, you know, it could be psychopathy which leads to NPD.
Whatever the case: all these hardcore guru con-artist types consistently (attempt) to gather money by abusing peoples’ trust and desire for the unicorn dream.
I have been alive long enough to understand that if a person does what those guru types do for very long then either: you hate yourself (the way Tim Brownson in his own words seemed to hate himself back when he was in sales) or else you have some sort of break with ordinary reality or at least ordinary morality.
If those guru types are truly incapable of empathy towards the people they screw over, it would make it much easier for them to screw people over.
So yeah–me sort of just restating what @SD already said. Except, I’m trying to use inference as little as possible so as to wind up with a final statement that cannot easily be countered:
I don’t really know which DSM disorder most accurately describes them: but it surely must be the case that at least the most dishonest of the guru types have got to have something functioning abnormally in their brains.
Ah, damn now I’m usin’ the colons too! aghh!
–
Furry cows moo and (fnord) decompress.
  +2
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 2:42 am
@Wyrd,
DSM diagnoses definitions are only really helpful as signifiers for mental health workers when discussing general symptoms–it gives a common framework for discussion and debate.
In reality individuals display vast variations in behaviour and no-one ever really fits exactly into any DSM framework definition–which is why there is so much furore and debate every time a new version of DSM is published.
The label ‘BPD’ is usually only applied to people displaying very erratic mood swings and behaviour–and they don’t tend to rise in the hierarchies of western social systems, they are too unstable. They can prosper in totalitarian set-ups though.
There is an internal logic for the BPD-labelled individual that makes perfect sense to that person, it just doesn’t gel with the more wider, socially accepted logic that others recognise.
‘Mental health’ isn’t an absolute, it is, to a large degree a social construct. For lay-people (non-mental health professionals) and dealing with individuals, it is more useful to observe and try to deal with the behaviour and not get too bogged down with the DSM definitions–which are only guides and frameworks for recognising particular human behaviours anyway.
Deliberate, pre-meditated scamming of the Syndicate variety is generally recognised as sociopathic behaviour and such types can often rise to run corporations, governments and other big organisations, as their ability to use individuals without concern for the individuals personal welfare is much valued in such set-ups–where power and profit always wins out over an individual person’s welfare.
  +2
[Reply]

Lanna Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@stoic,
Thanks for your explanation of BPD.
Yup, we are bumping up against the limitations of diagnosing using the DSM, combined with clinicians often being pressured into hasty diagnoses that fit the demands of insurance payers or client’s legal counsel. BPD, NPD and bipolar are all valid DSM-IV diagnoses, while psychopathy and sociopathy have been replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder, which has been tailored for violent criminals with multiple arrests.
I cannot recommend enough George Simon’s “In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People.” It’s written for laypeople who are dealing with manipulative individuals, but he delves into and rejects prevailing personality theories, saying they’re so rooted in shame-based Victorian culture that they don’t apply to modern, self-confident people. Basically, Simon says manipulative people are conscience-less utilitarians, not pitiable creatures masking their own feelings of inadequacy.
  +2
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 5:42 pm
Of course, being proactive can also avoid a lot of problems.
“Always speak your mind and a base man will avoid you.” – William Blake
  -1

Shorty Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 1:59 am
@Barbara, I have had the misfortune of having someone with BPD in my life, but I don’t recognize Naomi as textbook. My BPD person was genuinely not aware his behavior was disproportionate to the situation. My read on Naomi is that she is purposely calculating, not acting impulsively due to a mental disorder. I think she just lacks character, not marbles.
  +3
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
October 21st, 2011 at 3:18 am
@Shorty,
I agree, she lacks character and any sense of moral responsibility for the consequences of her chosen behaviour.
She is ‘bad’ not ‘mad’ because of the adult choices she has made.
  +2
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 1:17 pm

Syndicater H8r said:
Stockholm syndrome strikes hard!
Thanks to the court of laws in the USA we won’t be having a another James Town (i.e JAR town), and thanks to salty we shouldnt be having a Naomi town either.
This is such a disgusting way to rip money out of people…I hope everyone of Naomi’s customers see’s this
  +5
[Reply]
# 13 October 2011 at 7:30 pm

Concerned Citizen said:
@SD,
Apologies if this was posted already, but my skimming didn’t indicate so.
Remember this from the IM convo between Dave and Naomi where Naomi begged him to take it off her hands occur right about that time?
“…2009 is now and I still haven’t declared anything. If I get out now, IttyBiz never had to have been my business in the first place.”
Ittybiz, LLC is registered in Dave’s state of NC 9/2009.
Dave Navarro is the registered agent and Manager, which means he’s the owner as far as the state and the tax man is concerned. How he and Naomi have it set up under the table, we obviously don’t know, unless it follows the line of their IM convo referenced in http://saltydroid.info/spider-shit-storm/
But the annual reports are current; whether the tax bills have been paid is unknown, of course. His annual reports are up to date with the last one filed 4/11. (Annual reports for NC are $200/year)
Registration Info:
http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Corp.aspx?PitemId=9208633
Not that I am bringing anything groundbreaking to the table…just seems that there is your answer as far as ‘his time needed to think about it and wrap his head around it.’
  +3
[Reply]

Lanna Reply:
October 16th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
@Concerned Citizen,
Yeah, we teased this out over here.
  +1
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
October 19th, 2011 at 7:58 am
@Lanna, good deal. I saw in an earlier comment above mine that SD had ‘looked for some info and hadn’t found a whole lot,’ so wanted to double contribute rather than not at all. Thanks!
  +3
[Reply]
# 15 October 2011 at 7:10 pm

Krank Fern said:
Naomi Dunford possible Scam Artist and confirmed Jezebel, had this saying: “talk to those that you are responsible for..” – oh wait, nevermind.
  +2
[Reply]
# 17 October 2011 at 1:04 pm

Juice said:
2 Words. Bi-Polar.
Or is that 1?
  +1
[Reply]

Wanderlost Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 4:33 am
@Juice, No, I really don’t think so. We have bipolar disorder in the family. Someone in the full grip of a manic phase is really raise-the-hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck crazy. They’re not able to plan and any manipulation they do will be pretty clearly unconscious- a minor side-effect of the disorder. In the manic phase they’re really swinging from the chandeliers and exhausting everyone around them -and in the depressed phase they’re incapable of doing anything and are likely to be suicidal. And the contrast between both extremes and their normal personality is HUGE. Sounds to me like Naomi’s pretty well in control of herself and aware of what she’s doing. Dave, on the other hand, sounds classic.
  0
[Reply]
# 18 October 2011 at 5:08 pm
» Alison in PlunderLand said:
[...] and Laura were in town. Here is Alison’s description of what Naomi Dunford would later describe to Jacob as “The Great Anthony And His Car Ambush Of 2010″ [...]
  +1
# 19 October 2011 at 4:43 pm

Sundog said:
@SD,
|And did you just site to her again? Ha! NEVER site a liar … never means never … you will always be wrong. Pathological liars always lie. I know it’s scary to think about it … but it’s true … ALWAYS.|
I did. I have this pesky little problem where I think that no one would lie about something so huge – not even a pathological liar, not even for money. But I guess that’s how the Big Lie works.
I wasn’t trying to defend her, just more amazed with each post about how far the lies and manipulation go.
  +2
[Reply]
# 24 October 2011 at 7:55 pm
The Blogs and Podcasts that I Currently Subscribe To (and Why) said:
[...] READ: “Naomi Dunford: Spider Intercession”  [...]
  0
# 7 December 2011 at 6:38 am

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