Alison in PlunderLand

PlunderLand Invasion

Alison Newton met Dave Navarro 17 years ago at NC State. They were close friends for years before they decided to get matching last names. The matching names were a commitment that they both took seriously. They had both come from severely broken homes :: and both were determined to protect their own children from the same fate.

By the time I met Alison Navarro a couple of months ago :: Naomi Dunford and the cult of Internet Marketing had already destroyed everything that Dave and Alison had worked so hard to build. I talked about Dave and Naomi on a post about how I think Brian Clark is one of the worst scammers on the Internet. After which Alison sent me a lengthy :: and quite beautiful :: email that ended like this …

“What you do is important; it’s educating people about the true nature of the people they trust, or at the very least getting the word out via your site about the need for educating others that not everyone can be trusted.

I read your latest post tonight and I wanted to thank you for turning the rock over, Droid.  Don’t let them hide anymore if you can help it.”

Her life is a super messed up hell-scape :: but she was still able to feel genuine sympathy for the problems and plight of others. It’s the path straight to my fake robot heart. Alison :: like so many other spousal victims of the unicorn delusion :: was put into an uncomfortable moral position. She wanted to be supportive of Dave’s vision for his own life :: but whenever she got glimpses inside the world of his “business” … she didn’t like what she saw. Probably the reason Dave kept her mostly in the dark about what he was doing.

After Dave quit his job at Lockheed Martin :: Alison suddenly found herself dependent on the unicorn machine for necessities. She’s still feeling bad about it. Here she is just a couple of days ago :: trying to convince Jason that she shares some blame …

… churning out any old crap

If Dave hadn’t walked out :: the tension in their marriage over an issue of core morality would have continued to build … making life harder … and worser. If you let “them” corrupt you :: you’re letting “them” corrupt your family. If you’re feeding your kids with affiliate payments from Frank Kern … then you’re making your kids unwilling parties to Frank Kern’s amorality.

Dave and Alison didn’t have a perfect marriage :: but they had a stable marriage that they were both working to improve. Alison was sure they were getting stronger … that they were both growing up. Dave outlined his goals and aims and whatever in journals labeled by year :: and they always started out with stuff like this …

Alison says that Dave was an excellent father :: and he was well-loved by his kids. He made rules for himself :: good rules …

But increasingly Dave’s “business” was coming first. Long days at his real job :: plus long days at his fake job … was leaving less and less time to keep his family centered and balanced. It was a point of contention with Alison. Adding to the stress was Dave’s extreme unhappiness with his job. Dave was a quality control manager at a small company that made simulation type software. Lockheed Martin liked the technology and purchased the company :: pulling Dave into a highly bureaucratic environment that he found unsatisfying.

It’s unclear if his final months at Lockheed were so stressful because Dave truly disliked his job :: or because of Naomi Dunford’s relentless pressure :: or because he knew he was about to make a gigantic mistake … but he was stressed enough that Alison had started worrying about his health.

Quitting his job was supposed to make things better :: relieve his stress :: allow for more family time :: allow for more Alison time … but it had the opposite effect on all counts. Dave became more and more distant … less and less like the Dave.

After he returned from BlogWorld 2010 in Las Vegas :: Dave’s actions turned downright bizarre. Not sleeping :: ignoring hygiene :: shouting his kids down in public :: getting lost on the way to oft frequented locations. Alison stopped off at a Wendy’s drive-thru :: when the voice came over the speaker :: Dave had a full on fight-or-flight reaction … attempting as best he could to get in a fetal position below the dashboard.

Alison was freaked out. On Oct 31st she went into Dave’s office to talk to him about hiding out in there 24/7 :: Dave looked up at her stone faced and said he was leaving so he could spend more time with his business. It wasn’t just the shock of such an abrupt pronouncement :: but the tone with which it was delivered … as though he’d never cared for her in the least.

For a week Alison walked around in a daze :: not sleeping :: vomiting up anything she ate … all while trying to keep it together in front of the kids. On Nov 8th she called her sister-in-law Laura and told her what happened. Laura asked how she could help :: Alison said she didn’t know other than being in big time need of a hug. Anthony and Laura jumped in their car and immediately made the three-hour trek from Charlotte to Raleigh.

Anthony and Laura were shocked. Anthony and Dave had always been close :: and Anthony couldn’t understand Dave just disappearing into the night without a word. He told me this is the sort of thing he would expect from other of his loved ones :: and you’d just have to roll with it … other people’s lives are their own. But this was so perplexingly out of character for David Navarro. Anthony tried to call and email Dave to no avail.

The following day Dave was scheduled to take Jacob to Taekwondo :: he didn’t know that Anthony and Laura were in town. Here is Alison’s description of what Naomi Dunford would later describe to Jacob as “The Great Anthony And His Car Ambush Of 2010” …

… we’re talking at him

… aka Dave’s family asking him why he’s leaving his family.

Alison was worried. Laura was worried. Anthony was worried. Jacob was worried. Dave’s sister Christine was worried. Everybody that knew Dave was worried.

Anthony and Christine decided :: independent of Alison :: to have Dave evaluated by mental health professionals. It wasn’t a decision taken lightly :: but on the totality of the circumstances it seemed the right move. Anthony and Christine know in a deeply personal way the vulnerabilities left behind by a horrid event like the murder of your mother and the subsequent prosecution of your father. Anthony and Christine know :: unlike all you useless chirpers on the Interwebs :: how Dave got shuffled around from one bad foster situation to the next until Anthony was finally able to arrange a stable home in North Carolina with a nice lady named … wait for it … Debbie.

Anthony has been demonized by Naomi Dunford as some sort of dangerous religious fundamentalist … but it’s a preposterous accusation. David was responsible for bringing non-Catholic Jesus into the Navarro family :: as Alison explains like the fundamentalist that she’s not …

… thumper’s language

For the next six months :: Dave Navarro didn’t see his kids because he was too “in fear of his life” at the hands of his nice guy brother who lives in a different city. Laura offered to check herself and Anthony in at the police station if that meant Dave wouldn’t miss seeing his kids on Christmas … but he did miss seeing them. And he missed supporting them … making no deposit in May … transferring money from Jacob’s college fund in lieu of payment in August … and never depositing a consistent amount. Meanwhile credit card bills show Dave flying all about the globe spending money like he’s got money to spend. A recent second mortgage that Alison was told amounted to $10K :: turned out to be for $30K … and it’s not getting paid.

An attorney starts working pro bono to try to help Alison secure a separation agreement. When Dave’s attorney can find him :: he stalls and continues to insist on strange changes. Eventually he restarts visitation with the kids. Their therapist emphasizes to Dave how important it is that he NOT disappear again … two disappearings is much harder on a kid than one.

But he did disappear again.

Dave Navarro has had no contact with his family since The Salty Droid started posting about Naomi Dunford’s spider webs. Jacob had his one and only 16th birthday … not so much as a text message. After the Spider Shitstorm Dave’s lawyer contacted Alison’s lawyer …

“David has asked me to inform you that he will not be able to sign the separation agreement. Because of his brother’s recent escalation in his attempts to ruin his reputation via contact with the owner of an internet hate site, David’s business has suffered an unrecoverable blow that makes meeting the financial requirements of the agreement impossible.

Additionally, please inform Alison that David will not be returning to Raleigh in the foreseeable future for safety issues. As a result of the recent escalation, he is currently receiving levels of harassment and threats that make visiting Raleigh or giving her a timeframe in which he will be there unsafe …

Please inform Alison that David is no longer personally checking his email due to the emotional toll of hate mail and online attacks, and that his assistant will check it for him, and will filter any relevant details to him and make any necessary replies.”

The nonexistent Droid-based hate mail is so bad that Dave can’t read emails from his wife about his kids. It’s a shame because some of his wife’s emails {which I am able to read in spite of my hate mail} contain some pretty hilarious gallows humor. Here’s one …

“Wrote a bad check for groceries for the kids this morning.  Hooray for internet marketing!”

Hooray indeed.

A few weeks after Dave’s lawyer called this fake robot blog a “hate site” :: she ceased her representation of Dave Navarro. And after almost two months of zero communication from Dave :: Alison got an email that started like this …


This is Jason, David’s virtual assistant. He wanted me to tell you that …

Not cool. Not normal.

Yet in spite of all this bullshit :: when I asked Alison if it was too late for her and Dave to reconcile … she couldn’t rule it out. She told me that she can still see the wounded eight year old Dave getting shuffled from place to place :: feeling not loved and not wanted :: and she can still remember the man she’s loved for so long. She’s hoping to see that guy again sometime … even though things have changed.

Not too long ago :: some of Dave’s former colleagues knocked on Alison’s door. They have a new :: smaller :: company again and are desperate to have Dave back … because Dave rocked at his real job. He hasn’t responded to their communications … I guess because his “assistant” didn’t think it was relevant.

Dave :: your family loves you … go home.

Dave :: I killed your goddamn unicorn … go home.

Dave :: your wife is like the awesomest … go home.

Dave :: you’ve been heartlessly manipulated … go home.

Dave :: the mother of your children told me that …

… nothing beats a dad …

… go home.

>> bleep bloop

295 thoughts on “Alison in PlunderLand”

  1. That´s some pretty good advice coming from a “hate site”.

    I like the “real vs fake” job comparison.

    I know of a very similar story of a man that lost everything so he could follow the “Herbalife dream”….

  2. Wow, this is beyond sad. I predict this will be the subject of a documentary once something on par with the Madoff scheme that’s connected to the Syndicate makes real news.

    Someone call 60 Minutes and tell ’em you know General Unicorn.

    Naomi, your kind is a threat to all the decent people out there!

    “They’ll by anything Naomi pushes”
    “Wrote a bad check for groceries. Whoo hoo IM”

  3. “Whoever would hear the eternal wisdom of the Father, he must be within, and at home, and must be one.” Meister Eckhart, Christian Mystic

    ‘One has seen nothing until one comes face to face with oneself.’

    Liberation is here and now; it starts with giving up craving, grasping and clinging, to realize that there is

    Nothing to grasp,
    Nothing to expect and nothing to prove,
    Nothing to gain and nothing to lose,
    Nothing to choose and nothing to reject,
    Nothing to hold onto and nothing to behold,
    Nothing to rely on and nothing to dwell upon,
    Nothing to believe and nothing to achieve,
    Nothing to desire and nothing to fear,
    But to know that there is only reason to relax and let go ever more.

    The way of the bodhisattva is to let go when doing good as well as when suffering. Good things and suffering are but two sides of the same coin; after sorrow comes happiness and after happiness comes sorrow. To practice transcendent wisdom, suffering is the test.

    The ultimate experience is that there is nothing to experience; the final truth is that there is no-thing to be seen and no-body to see. Ultimate reality is inconceivable because there is nothing to be conceived. It is closer than anything that can be reached and closer than anyone who reaches.

    1. Dave, if you look closely, everyone’s life has a huge, HUGE irony to it. We all make mistakes. The evil is when you realize it, ignore the red flags and warning signals from within and continue on with the error.

      Think about all the pain, suffering, and misery the loss of your mother brought to you when you were a little boy. Think about how your entire world was turned upside down when your father was found guilty of creating that loss.

      Remember how frightening it was to lose all sense of reality at such a young age? No ground to stand on, just perpetual limbo in a deep hole in the ground.

      You lost both of your parents and you may have blamed yourself for it. You probably also felt that they abandoned you. Remember the feeling of “this can’t be real, it’s gotta be just a terrible nightmare” and waiting to wake up from it? It was real, and then comes the feeling of being abandoned. Remember that feeling of powerlessness? This is what your children are going through right now.

      Why did dad do this to us? Why did he make mom go away? Why did mom go away? Why did they leave me?

      Remember how horrible it felt to not have a mom anymore, and to not have a dad any more?

      All of the stuff you’re still coping with from THAT until this very day, you are now doing to your own children.

      You are turning into the very things that have tortured you all your life, Dave. You are perpetuating the family cycle of abuse and abandonment. These are the cold, hard facts, Dave.

      Do you really want to pass on the legacy of misery and pain to your sons that you’ve had to carry all your life?

      You are at a cross roads now, and there are choices. Use your gut instinct, remember the love of your wife and children. Remember the moment your first born child was born. What was that like for you? How did you feel when you first held this brand new person in your arms and you looked into his eyes and saw yourself in him?

      The red flags and warnings signals are a way back home. You can do the greatest thing a man, a Dad, a husband can do now, much greater than striking it rich with the Internet Marketing industry.

      You started this to help bring a better life to your family. Money doesn’t create love and it can’t make people love you. It just buys you trinkets and lots of shiny, flashes stuff. It is not the MOST important thing.

      Your original purpose in doing this was that you can show your family how much you love them. That doesn’t require money and fame. It requires love and courage.

      You can be a REAL hero, where it counts, by breaking the patterns of dysfunctional family behavior that runs within so many of our families.

      It will take real courage now, because you are probably in a very terrifying, deep, dark place.

      I’m not a christian, but if I were to believe in God I would say to you that God loves you unconditionally and there is NEVER NEVER anything you could do to change that.

      Look deep within yourself and remember the Divine light. See it illuminate your entire body, mind, and soul. Reach out for it, because it will give you clarity, strength and courage. It is always there waiting to help you find your way back home.

      1. @worovme, Seriously why are you guys thumbing down? I liked Joe Holland’s post so the thumbing down is a little unnerving though interesting.

        I don’t want to get too deep or esoteric here, but I will say that this Dave Navarro meltdown is exactly like Mel Gibson’s. It may have less to do with religion than it does with what we might call a midlife crisis. A family man is on top of his game, made some box office hits, leaves his wife (even though he’s a Christian) for a younger woman who’s f’ed in the head. I won’t even get into the drunken row thing.

        And Dave Navarro, the “[Bible] Thumper” family man, wants to succeed in this marketing thing even though it’s in conflict with his ethics, leaves his wife and kids to hook up with some woman who’s f’ed in the head.

        Am I the only one who sees the pattern here?

  4. What an unbelievably sad mess for Alison, for Dave’s kids and for Dave’s siblings, for Dave, and for anyone else who cares about Dave. My heart goes out to all these people. I wish I could do something for them. I hope Dave can disentangle himself from the web.

    This is probably the most sad of all the sad stories told to date on this “hate site” in the couple of years I’ve been reading it. Even more sad is to realize that this is NOT an isolated incident.

    1. @Anna, I don’t know if it’s the saddest story, but it is the one that has been related with the most detail, in a way that makes it personal and “close to home” for many of us. It’s not an isolated incident at all.

      1. @JH, point taken. This is the most immediate right now and the detail is stunning. James Ray’s victims come to mind.

  5. I truly hope Dave reads this and remembers the man and father he used to be…and can be again.

    It’s not too late, Dave. Give your boys their dad back.

  6. Dave,

    I promise you that no matter how messy things are right now, and no matter how bad this feels, and no matter how long it takes for things to get back to good between you and your family (whether it takes days, weeks, months, or years) just taking the action….just reaching out to your wife and kids and expressing to them how much you love them will be TOTALLY WORTH IT. And no matter how mad your kids are or whether they say the hate you… they love you and need you more than any words can ever express. Who you are will play a part of who they become. You are one of the people writing the story of their lives. YOU get to decide what your part will be.

    Eventually all of this will fall away. Internet marketing doesn’t matter. Naomi Dunford doesn’t matter. Salty droid and all of us commenting here don’t matter. In time all of this noise and static will fade. Your family matters. Your children matter. Today, take one action, make one step to tell your kids you love them. And tomorrow, take another. And the day after that take another.

    Please take advantage of the time you have now. Your sons are still children. One day they will be men. Faster than you can imagine their childhood will be gone. It goes so quickly. Please don’t waste a second of it. The hardest step you take will be the first. Putting it off will only make it harder.

    My thoughts are with you and your family. I truly hope things work out well for all of you.

  7. This is heartbreaking. Alison’s pain is so real, so viseceral yet she comports herself with such quiet dignity. And for her to be able to see what David has become isn’t him, despite all the damage he has caused to her and their children, perfectly illustrates what an exceptional person she is.

    I would have UNDOUBTEDLY sought a psychiatric evaluation for a loved one behaving in this manner – and David’s sister was entirely correct for fearing some form of drug-induced psychosis.

    Although this confirms a lot of what I’d come to believe, reading & hearing the testimony of this incredible lady really brings the enormity of the situation home. I can’t begin to imagine how terrifying & confusing it must be to have a spouse or sibling suddenly start behaving like this, let alone a parent.

    Is there anything we, the readers of this blog, can do to help Alison and her family? Is there any way to set up a donation or something, anything to help?

    And Dr Myers. If you have any decency AT ALL you’ll never comment on this story again. I’d suggest a letter of apology…but that may be a step too far for you; at least say nothing more.

    Mr Droid, your work here has been invaluable.

    1. @It could happen to anyone,

      Yes – How can we help Allison? SD, is it possible to set up a fund?

      1. @SpideySenses ::

        I thought about that :: it’s temping … but I decided against it.

        There is pretty much nothing to gain from telling me your sad story. People tell me their stories to try and help others avoid the same … or to see badguys get what they have coming. I’m afraid mixing money into it would severely confuse the situation … and force me to be much more skeptical of victim stories.

        Plus :: this really isn’t a money problem. We could raise $10K … that won’t buy the kids their dad back.

        Alison is looking for a job in Raleigh NC though … if anybody knows anybody.

  8. God.

    I am so impressed with Alison Navarro, brave and open in spite of all this. Hearing her voice, with all this awful knot inside it, yet hearing her so levelheaded and collected.

    Thank you, Alison, for sharing your story.

    1. @Slowly Waking,

      I wanted to take a moment and thank you. If you hadn’t shared your story with Droid via an earlier article, I probably wouldn’t have had the guts to do a phone interview with Jason. In a very real sense, my story would not have been told if you hadn’t had the courage to share yours first. So, thank you for opening that door. :)

  9. This whole sad mess is like a “case study” in internet marketing fraud and it’s impact on individuals and families a like.

    I remember when I used to think that Jeff Walker “frauduct launcher” was a stand-up guy, (mostly because he was vouched for by all the other scammers – social proof 101). He would email all these “case studies” of his customers who were making squillions using his unique and expensive formula.

    This whole (Dave & Naomi) mess is like a reverse case study on the very real damage these frauds inflict on their victims. Heartbreaking to say the least.

    1. @Irwin ::

      Maybe I should go back and call the wives and/or husbands of Jeff’s old cases studies … I’ll bet there is almost always a “reverse case study” as you say.

      All. Lies.

      1. @SD, Yes!

        Real-life case studies… The truth about jeff walker &others customers… Thatvwould be great

        1. @Wide eyes ::


          I was just kidding. I don’t cold call people … it freaks them out.

          Alison’s situation is not unusual … it’s usual in fact. But Alison is unusual. 99/100 people want nothing to do with their life being featured here … something I can totally understand.

          Same thing with Anthony’s website … it’s an unusually bold and brave stand for a loved one. Anthony would have taken heat for that site even without Naomi’s cat crap. I think being brave is fucking awesome … anyone of Jeff Walker’s case studies who wants to be brave can ping me.

  10. I have tears in my eyes over this one. The previous post had me so angry… I really didn’t have anything new to add to what everyone else was saying.

    But this?

    Here’s the thing.

    So many of these Internet Marketers claim to help someone “live a dream life.” The whole point (from what I’ve gathered) of marketing oneself online and helping others start their own entrepreneurial business is to give the person what they have dreamed of — which is (wait for it….)


    And freedom from what? From work drudgery. 60+ hour work weeks at a job that is meaningless. Freedom from pouring out your life blood for some soulless company that would boot you out the door if the board of directors decided the company needed to trim the fat.

    And here’s the SICK part of this regarding Dave Navarro’s story…

    That freedom is touted by the IM’ers as being the key to spending more time with your family.

    That freedom is supposed to enable one to really live life to the fullest, to enjoy their families, their relationships, to breathe and not feel like they’re on some psycho-track to just make money (the way they supposedly felt when they had a corporate job).

    I’d like to know if these other IM’ers have reached out to Dave to say, “Dude. You’re doing it wrong.”

    I suspect none of them have. Because to do it would be to admit to themselves THEY’RE doing it wrong. I have a strong suspicion that family life for most of them sucks. One IM’er I’ve observed actually was giving a hyped-up presentation to generate buy-ins for her $999 program by announcing to the group:

    “You know what today is? It’s my son’s birthday. But here’s the thing, yes, there are sacrifices I’ve made to be successful but what’s more important? The birthday or having your child realize as they grow up that he or she has a mother who worked hard and is successful?”

    You stupid brickhead. It’s the birthday that’s important. Honestly. Your kid isn’t going to want to scrapbook photos of your live event where you’re trying to coax hundreds of gullible people into giving you 1K.

    This is the screwed-up world in which IM’ers live. Dave Navarro has totally lost perspective and because Dunford is so screwed up, she’s certainly not going to help him gain it. In fact, losers try to find other people they can turn into losers so they don’t feel like such a loser.

    Dave – you had something that most people only can dream about. You had a loving wife and good kids who looked up to you. That’s what’s important. Not whether some “rock star” from SXSW noticed you.

    Please go home. Please.

    1. @Module_One,

      You asked: “I’d like to know if these other IM’ers have reached out to Dave to say, “Dude. You’re doing it wrong.”

      No but they are gossiping about this and not in a good way. They don’t have anything nice to say about Naomi and recognize her as the instigator but instead of reaching out to help Dave they’re enabling the situation. To admit he’s in a bad place is to admit they’re all cons and they’re not doing that.

      1. @SpideySenses, I appreciate your response. I suspected the gossip. But it really does stun me that out of all those people who run around the same circles… NO ONE stepped forward to say to Dave, “Time out, my friend. You’re spinning out of control and you need to take a step back and think through some things. Focus on what is really important in your life, which is your family.”

        After typing this, I realized something. I still have many of these people in my Twitter feed. How often do they mention their families? I mean, I’m not looking for details. I certainly understand protecting one’s private family information — but how often do I see one of them say, “Heading to a really fun destination with my awesome kiddos. THIS is the reason why I wanted to work a flexible schedule!”

        As much as I’m underwhelmed by Chris Brogan, he’s the only one I can think of that talks about being on a family vacation and really enjoying himself. Every once in awhile, Sonia Simone mentions something cute her kid did. But other than that? You’d think most of these people are monks living in the Internet Marketing Monastery where worship to mega-launches is the only thing that counts.

        IM’ers, get a grip. The world is changing and you’re going to be left in the dust because all you were interested in was taking money from others instead of giving yourself to something greater — which is those you love.

        <b.Love will always be greater than money.

        1. @Module_One, Except that Chris Brogan just got out of his marriage and himself a girlfriend too.

          1. @SpideySenses,

            Interesting. Chris’s wife was running his business so I wonder how that’s working out.

        2. @Module_One ::

          Everyone knows how much bullshit Naomi Dunford is … when Chris Brogan tweeted her fake death threat post … and said “this is important” or some shit … he knew exactly what she was. He knew that she and Dave had just disappeared for months … something she’s done before. Sonia kept supporting her … even applauding her “please donate money” exploitation post as a great example of not letting the bastards keep you down.

          People who’ve collected monies for pushing her shit … or collected monies from her pushing their shit … were honor bound to say something. No one said anything … no one ever would have. Just like no one was going to say anything about fraud felon Perry Belcher :: or pedophile Paulie Sabol.

          None of this shit is an accident. “Only the money matters” isn’t an exaggeration … only the money matters.

          1. @SD,

            At CopyBlogger’s party at SXSW it was an interesting scene. Naomi and Dave showed up after being on the run for several months. The room was clearly divided and the non-supporters stayed as far away from them as possible. The 3T cult after having just finished a fun gossip session about Naomi and Dave welcomed them with open arms. It just as ridiculous as James Chartrand’s coming out party the night before. Plenty of us left as soon as they got there because it killed the mood but the people who enabled them will always enabled them.

            They have to enable them because it’s better to look like you’re sticking by your friend than to say “I was wrong. This is fucked up.” They have to save face or risk public outrage.

            After SXSW I left 3T. Thanks to Naomi I can see the forest for the trees.

          2. @SD, I suspected Brogan was a shit. Confirmed.

            @SpideySenses – wow. I’m really sorry to hear that because I hate hearing about anyone’s marriage splitting apart. But really, I understand someone doing the whole IM thing if they’re single. When you have a family, it seems more difficult because there is always yet another “blogging world” type of conference to attend. And once you get on that wheel, you’re afraid to get off because people will think you’re not doing well with your business. Sort of like an “out of sight, out of mind” fear thing.

            I’m wanting a Salty Droid t-shirt. It would be hilarious to go to a networking event here in town and wear it just to see some people’s expressions. There’s a few wannabe’s around here.

  11. I’m so going to get slammed for saying this.

    This is why I dropped from the scene, to the point where I’d rather be broke and hungry then do stuff that makes me feel icky. I’ll stand by my previous support of Dave and can see why he did a lot of the things that he did. He was a good friend and boss. I feel sad that this had to happen, as Dave doesn’t deserve a lot of the crap he’s been given. I’ve fucked up a fair bit too during my professional career. And don’t hate me for saying that. He was a good mate and very supportive of me.


    The attitude of ‘put out any old crap and x audience will buy it’ is why I’ve been working to get the fuck out of this scene. I’ll be connected with people in it because I like their personalities, but I don’t support their businesses.

    People are not commodities. That’s what a lot of this industry comes down to. I don’t care if people hate me for daring to comment or take a stand against an industry on a ‘hate site’.

    This site has done a lot of good and made a lot of people reconsider their position, marketing and other things. I feel horrible that a friend and his family, and a lot of my other friends, got caught up in it but I believe this industry needed a shake up.

    I just felt like that needed to be said.

    1. @Jade, Thanks for posting. Since you know Dave personally, if there’s any way you can contact him, I hope you do. I have had people I know recruited into cult and cult-like communities and one thing that I was able to do to help was maintain the friendship so they had a connection to the “outside” world. It required me to do a lot of listening and be more of a sounding board, but I think it helped to have a different perspective that wasn’t automatically rah-rah and let them explore their doubts in a safe environment so eventually they could find their own way out.

      If it’s really true that Dave isn’t even reading his own emails to avoid the negative emails, I highly doubt he is reading this site. He may not even be fully aware of it.

      1. @Shorty,

        I probably wouldn’t. We sorta cut ties a long time ago. This is too messy and the closer I got, the more anxious I got. I’ve sent a couple of emails since SXSW that went unreplied to so am assuming the friendship ended back then. My fault as much as his.

        I figure, he’d have people telling him what’s going on. I had a whole lot of people support me via twitter, facebook and email.

        People pay the shit out of the industry but not all the facets of it were bad or cult-like. Everyone makes a comment that feels a bit icky when potential earnings are placed in front of them. As MLM as this industry is, Dave was always fair to everyone. We were at blogworld and he was refunding people without question because it was the right thing to do. Bits of it are bad but there are a lot of good parts of it too. I mean, being in this allowed me to recover from anxiety and not starve. I got to go overseas. He paid me extra to cover tax and regarding normal work, paid me a decent rate because he wanted to be sure I could cover expenses, as I’d just moved. He was a good guy, and a lot of his products have helped people. I know this because I’ve shared some with people outside of the IM world and it helped them.

        I think that everything that needed to be said to tell this story has been said, in regards to Dave. All the cards are on the table. I dunno, I just feel sad about it.

        1. @Jade,

          So there’s Dave using the 30k remortgage money to make refunds and paying you extra, while his wife is writing bad cheques so that she can feed her kids.

          A good guy?

          Fair to everyone, except his wife and kids it seems.

          1. @Alley-Cat,

            This was before blogworld. After blogworld, we had very little contact and I didn’t know what was going on.

            The guy I knew was a good guy. I’ve suffered because of stuff that happened too but I’ve shut up about it. I’ve been hurt and have gone behind financially so I would be justified in saying negative things.

            The guy i worked for back then was a good guy. I will argue that no matter what anyone says.

            I got paid the last time in October. I spent three months dealing with contact enquiries after that, unpaid. I did what was right because i didn’t, and couldn’t, know enough to do or say anything.

            I’m defending the guy I knew. I hate a lot of what has happened since then but I can’t say anything publicly without getting slammed
            from all sides. I’m in a huge, moral dilemma because of stuff I had no control over and I’m trying to provide a bit of perspective that no one else would provide because the comments on this site terrifying everyone.

            1. @Jade,

              Jade wrote:

              This was before blogworld. After blogworld, we had very little contact and I didn’t know what was going on.

              SD wrote:

              After he returned from LBlogWorld 2010 in Las Vegas :: Dave’s actions turned downright bizarre. Not sleeping :: ignoring hygiene :: shouting his kids down in public :: getting lost on the way to oft frequented locations. Alison stopped off at a Wendy’s drive-thru :: when the voice came over the speaker :: Dave had full on fight-or-flight reaction … attempting as best he could to get in a fetal position below the dashboard.

              Ok. So, for whatever reason, Blogworld 2010 appears to have been The Big Moment When Everything Changed.

              I understand that, from the perspective of his family, there was a continuum of changes over time. However, it seems that Blogworld 2010 event was a major inflection point on the continuum of Dave Navarro personality changes. But it might never be known exactly why…

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

      2. @Shorty, He actually used to be a fan of it, he was really excited when the Droid contacted him for an interview. Which is sad in and of itself.

        1. @Sundpg, I know he used to read this site. I just think from what’s been said in the more recent posts about how Dave has totally dropped out of sight that he is no longer operating like normal Dave. He’s in hiding physically and mentally… hence the PA filtered email, even Naomi’s confession about keeping him away from “drama” which is really just a twisted way of positioning Dave needing to face his real life problems. If Dave is living with Naomi, she is probably filtering everything he sees and hears, who he talks to and who talks to him. I don’t doubt Alison when she says Dave was a good father, so for him to be behaving this way his world view must have gotten seriously twisted. It’s very hard to straighten out your thinking if you are constantly in the fog that got you twisted up in the first place. Dave needs a friend who isn’t on ND’s side, but who also doesn’t readily appear like a threat to ND.

          1. @Shorty,

            You’re absolutely right here. I would bet a good deal of money that a) Dave Navarro is still living with Naomi and that b) he’s working with her on Ittybiz.

            Remember a week ago when Naomi sent out a money-grab email and everyone swore it wasn’t her? In the interest of wild speculation, I’d be it’s Dave.

            I suspect he’s still seriously, seriously stuck in her web

    2. @Jade,

      I don’t know why you said you would get slammed for speaking, I’ve seen your comments before and you’ve been complimented and voted up. As a matter of fact, your posts have been praised by many commenters here. So I really don’t understand why you said you were concerned.

      When you said “it’s why I’ve been working to get the fuck out of this scene. I’ll be connected with people in it because I like their personalities” I was also bewildered. When you say you’ve been working to get out I keep hearing Yoda’s voice, “Do, or do not. There is no trying.” Why can’t you just quit instead of working up to it?

      As for being connected with these people because you like their personalities…I’m at a complete loss. If their products are crap and they are selling them to clueless buyers what do you like about them?

      As for “I’ll stand by my previous support of Dave and can see why he did a lot of the things that he did.” Well, yeah, I think a lot of people understand some of the things he did, like foolishly getting involved with Dunford, but that support stops with his abandonment of his wife and children. Understanding is not excusing.

      “People pay the shit out of the industry but not all the facets of it were bad or cult-like.” This comment just out-and-out baffles me. I cannot see any redeeming qualities in an “industry” that has bilked, screwed over, robbed blind, cheated, etc. so many people.

      1. @Barbara,

        My reply was lost, so I’ll summarize.

        Not everything about this industry is bad. I’ve seen a lot of the bad side and know stories that would make you angry. I’ve also seen the good side, where people have created products that are really useful and are marketed ethically.

        It’s a very hard balance and some people are more aggressive then I’m comfortable with. I’ll dislike some of their professional actions but still like them as a person. If someone was a scammer, I’ll cut off contact with them. People also email me a lot asking if a product is right for them and I am brutally honest. My advice has caused people to gain, and lose, sales.

        I don’t condone bad behaviour, which is why I distanced myself from the situation. I have an anxiety disorder. I’m close (rather, was close) to someone with BPD. I know that some things are complex and you often don’t know the full story.

        The people on this site have been respectful to me. However, it is overwhelmingly considering to be a bad site and posting on here will cause some slack from the observers. It will be perceived as siding with people who have a bunch of negative attributes, and also cause a lack of trust. I am taking that risk because it’s important to know both sides.

        A lot of people and facets are bad. It can fuck people up. It can also help people. Before I got caught up in this shit, I was doing work that helped people and allowed me to earn a living without making my anxiety worse. I get my first unemployment payment on Tuesday. I stepped back to the point where I had to borrow $3000 from my boyfriend. He only had that because his father died.

        I do like various facets of social media and blogging, and even product creation so wont completely cut myself off. There are good people doing good things.

        I’m someone that was royally fucked over by this industry and situation, so I’m not trying to BS you. Its just messy.

  12. Dave if you read this take note:
    You will have the rest of your life to try to earn some sort of living, you get one shot at being a dad to your kids. That is truly a limited time offer, it wont be reissued, there wont be cancellations or deadline extensions. Dad Boss 2 “now even Bossier” will not come along.

    Your wife and kids need you Dave. You are being offered a 2nd chance. We all make big mistakes, we all don’t get 2nd chances. This deal will not hang around forever.

    Now let’s talk about your other deal. If somehow your deal with Naomi were ever to make any money, it wont mind you, but if it were, how long before she trades you in on a newer model?

    After you give all you have you are just dead weight to her. I bet if you went though her email and phone she has 2 or 3 other marks lined up for when she has sucked you dry or you get wise. This deal with Naomi will end, right now you can decide when and how. Latter you wont have that choice. Right now you may be able to patch things up with your wife and children. Later you will not.

  13. This story now reminds me about when I heard a 9-year-old say the other day tell me about that a “Unicorn is a magical, mythical creature…(pause)…with horn that stabs people.”

    It was him being funny, but seems so accurate too with this story and others unfolding like this now.

    I hope Dave listens to Dr. Duke et al: “One chance to be a dad.”

  14. The whole Internet Marketing world is a pyramid scheme. The only people who buy the products are other internet marketers. And everyone just turns around and tries to sell to other internet marketers.

    So the only way to make any money in internet marketing is for internet marketer wannabees to give you their money. Some have to win and some have to lose, because it is a closed system.

    It is not like other markets, where you are selling stuff that people want. Here you are just selling to people that want to turn around and sell the same kind of stuff to others.

    I don’t know if this is making any sense. But it just seems to me that it is just a circle of marketers selling to marketers. Some win and some lose. Even those who seem to be winners are losers.

    And this story is just a very sad example of the result of all this circular selling.

    At one point a few years ago, I thought it was ok to sell internet marketing products, because I thought a lot of people just bought them for the entertainment value. I didn’t realize what real harm could happen to people who got sucked into it too deeply.

    This website has really been eye-opening for me. Keep up the good work. It is hard to read these sad stories, but the stories are necessary, in order to expose what is really going on behind the scenes.

    1. @Pat,

      ” the only way to make any money in internet marketing is for internet marketer wannabees to give you their money”

      Nailed if

  15. I’m so sorry, @SD.


    Damn, but talk about the Ultimate Cautionary Tale of What Not To Do, and Why Not To Do It. (regarding Dave’s actions in quitting his job and getting consumed by IM-MMO)

    But there is still the chance that it could improve. “While there’s life, there’s hope.”

    If Dave were to return to his wife and kids he could rebuild the life he had.

    It’s weird. @SD, you wrote previously that Dave told you directly that he’s a fan of your site. But then he folded his “business” and, via lawyer, claimed it was basically all your fault that he had to close down.

    So maybe now, in his disappeared state, he’s thinking to start the whole thing up again but under a pseudonym or something?

    I always figured one aspect of the unicorn dream-ponzi scheme, is if you do get some money coming in sometimes then a gambling addiction-like effect can kick in. That is: you got a hit and some cash based on your fake reputation. But that burns out pretty quickly. The only way to keep it up is to keep getting new marks.

    Except of course it so often doesn’t work that way. It’s that A-team, B-team thing.

    Verily, it would be healthier and safer to take it as a given that “you can’t make money online”.

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

  16. First of all, Alison is behaving far more rationally and sanely than any husband has the right to expect. Despite her pain, the compassion she has for Dave comes through clearly in every word she speaks. When I compare this woman to the Dunford I’ve come to know from her writing and her videos, well, words fail me. Alison is calm, loving, loyal and concerned for her children above all else. Despite the insanity raging around her she even manages to keep a sense of humor, amazing under the circumstances.

    When Alison quoted Dave saying “I’ll put some crap out there, they’ll buy it from Naomi.” that must have been at an extremely dangerous moment in Dave’s life. He realized Naomi put out crap. But he was panicking about money. I think this was when Dunford really got him into her clutches. The lies, the innuendos, the constant repetition ” I understand you…your wife doesn’t…think of being free of all that holds you back…you deserve happiness too, Dave…” This is how the Spider Bitch wove her web.

    Dave, get out. Now. This woman will cause you pain and anguish far beyond what you can even imagine. Get away from her now for your own sanity and mental health. Dunford is incapable of caring for a child, running an honest business or even being a friend. She’s toxic.

  17. Dave Navarro,

    Did you ever see the movie Jacob’s Ladder? It’s a good movie. But very dark and twisted though. I would not advise seeing it right now.

    Anyway, if you have seen it, you’ll remember the main character has a lot of trouble figuring out just what the fuck is going on.

    So remember that thing where Anthony and co. got out of the car and it felt to you like they were sort of confronting you and stuff? And it felt really horrible? Well, it turns out they’re actually the good guys.

    In the movie, Jacob has a girlfriend named Jessie. Later she turns into a weird snake monster and our main character can’t figure out why.

    At a certain point in the movie, the helpful chiropractor tells Jacob that once he’s ready, the demons will be revealed to be angels.

    Your world is upside down–all turned around, dude. Those that you think are enemies are friends, and those that you think are friends are most definitely enemies.

    Oh, and Ms. Dunford? She’s the DEMON. Just wanted to make that point clear.

    Back in the real world where “up” means “up”, “down” means “down” and “love” means everything, your wife and kids are still waiting.

    Please return to them.

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

  18. I think it was helpful for all of us to hear Alison’s honest account of what happened the night Anthony tried to speak to Dave. It was heartbreaking to hear that Dave was so sickened by the situation he had created that he actually started vomiting. Clearly Dave’s conscience was still active at that point and sending him unmistakable messages.

    It’s interesting because you can see how Naomi twists the truth, “The Great Anthony And His Car Ambush Of 2010” was how she sneeringly referred to this horrific time for this family. That’s how Dunford operates, she tried with unfunny sarcasm to belittle Jacob’s uncle and minimize the very real pain of that night by giving it a silly name.

    Naomi, your lies are reaching the end of their shelf life. They’ve gone rotten, like your soul. The truth is now out there. I’m going to make sure the mommy bloggers you told your lies to come and read the truth. What do you think they’ll think of you then?

    1. @hrmmm,
      Maybe he ate some of Frank Kerns mushrooms at Blogworld?

      This is not a joke- those kinds of drugs can cause all sorts of mental health problems to suddenly reveal themselves. I’ve seen it happen before. The way Dave switched from “normal” to “not-normal”, showing PTSD type symptoms, certainly fits the bill.

      1. @Grover Lembeck,

        Dave went to a “Mastermind” meeting at Blogworld with Darren Rowse, Dave Risley, Nathan Hangan, Johnathan Fields, and a few others. He wasn’t the same after that.

        1. @SS,

          He (along with a few friends, including myself) left that meeting at lunchtime to hang with friends and peers. I understand what you are implying but I don’t think Dave was starstruck or anything. If anything, I believe he was a bit burnt out and Blogworld was the first opportunity he had to take a break from work.

          (I was only at that meeting because I was Dave’s assistant and I felt so uncomfortable there that I felt like crying afterwards, so don’t get angry at a ‘nobody’ attending)

          I shouldn’t be commenting on this, but I get what you’re saying and I’m prob the only person who was there that is willing to talk about stuff. Most of the ‘big names’ that were there were accessible at parties and meetups at such afterwards, and he didn’t really go to those. The only thing that really changed things at Blogworld was that he had the time to think about business goals for 2012, which was mostly a couple of products he was looking to put out. If anything ‘clicked’, it was going to be hard to scale to the next level.

          I’m not justifying anyone or anything. I know from experience that speculation can be more damaging to people like Allison and myself.

  19. Hello Dave Navarro, Dave, I’m Madge. I’ve been thinking about your situation. Listen here. You can have plenty of sparks in your life without replacing all the spark plugs. You just needed a tuneup, that’s all. It’s easy to overlook what you’ve got, cause you fell into a routine. That doesn’t mean the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. It just looks good from a distance until you start walking on it, or it walks on you.

    Then you realize, hey, I already had some even better grass. Grass that would put up with my crap and stand by me. That kind of grass is hard to find, Dave. You took your grass for granted, but lucky for you, you can still get that grass back. A person could go five lifetimes and still not find grass that forgiving, if a person could live five lifetimes that is.

    Take my own grass, that would be Mr. Crikey. Sure I could go down to the square dance hall and probably run off with one of those single retired cloggers that are always showing off with their fancy boots and all. But you know what? Why would I even think about doing that? No matter what, Mr. Crikey has always been there, and put up with all my crap. Heck, I know I sure couldn’t put up with my crap, and that’s even knowing I’m me. Crap means nonsense by the way.

    Someone who cares about you AND puts up with your crap? That’s rare, Dave. I’ll tell you when I knew I made the right choice. It was when Mr. Crikey didn’t get upset after my refrigerator magnet collection got so big and heavy it made the refrigerator door fall off. He just put down his sarsaparilla, went and got his tool kit, and fixed it. He didn’t even say a word about it, so I doubled up his chicken drumsticks at dinner.

    So if you’re wondering how can you get out of the grass on that other side and get back to the good grass, well you just climb right back over that fence Dave. Don’t worry about the details, cause everything will work itself out. I bet you wouldn’t even have to fix the refrigerator door like Mr. Crikey did to get your chicken drumsticks doubled up. Just show up with a smile, and maybe, some potato salad. It doesn’t get better than that Dave.

  20. The part about spouses being put in an awkward spot because they want to be supportive, even as the alarm bells go off, really hit home for me.

    My wife got sucked into Mary Kay (yet another pyramid scheme that has some scarily similar qualities as IM) and I KNEW it was a bunch of bullshit but I didn’t want to be the one who said no to her dreams.

    So we lost 4 thousand dollars that we couldn’t afford to lose at the time and I carried around some resentment for awhile before just accepting that sometimes we fuck things up and all you can do is learn from it and move on.

    Here’s the thing, though–and Dave Navarro I hope you’re reading–there are very few mistakes in life that you can’t fix.

    As bad as things are … as far off the rails as this situation has gotten, Dave you can fix it.

    So go do that. You’ve got work to do, but in the end it’ll be next to nothing compared to the lifetime of hurt and regret you’ll have if you don’t.

    Oh, and God bless you Droid, whether you believe in Him or not. We have some differences, but you’re a good man and I get what you’re doing here.

    1. @Mad Max, So the tacky pink glitter-shitting Cadillac is a lie? I had a neighbor a couple of years ago who got tangled up with Arbonne. Single mother in her early to mid-40s, had a good job, but maybe some difficulty making ends meet. Basically another “Debbie”. She moved away, but I still wonder how that worked out for her. Some of their products are nice, but it I still think anything worth having is more widely marketed than by Pyramid scheme.

      1. @Anna,

        Mary Kay is indeed a pyramid scheme and a scam. The people at the top make their money by recruiting a “sales team,” convincing them to load up on inventory they have no hope of moving, and getting a cut of what they order.

        The first hint that they don’t care about the success of their sales people is that, unlike all legitimate franchises, no representative has a protected sales territory.

        I don’t want to derail this discussion with a bunch of off-topic Mary Kay stuff, but if anyone cares to know more about this fraudulent fake Christian organization, go pay a visit.

        1. @Mad Max,

          Used to be a personal assistant for an MK director – got to drive the pink car and everything – and it is most definitely a pyramid scheme. F-ed up mind games, total psychological manipulation and group dynamics to push you into spending more money.

  21. Hello Dave,

    I hope someone gets your eyes in front of this blog post and you read it, because you need to know something…

    Life is not forever.

    You probably think you have all the time in the world to make it up to your kids. You just need to get things going again, make a big score, and come riding in on your big white horse (or unicorn?) like a hero. Buy em all some cool stuff and everything will be good.

    But guess what Dave, kids die sometime. You may never get that chance to make it up to them if you wait.

    This is something I know about Dave. I’m a subject matter expert. Listen when I talk to you.

    In the past couple of years I’ve met a lot of other subject matter experts on this topic. Every single one of us live feeling guilty, because we just know there had to be something we could have done, or should have done, that would have prevented us from having to bury our kids. Even when there wasn’t a damn thing we could have done, we should have figured out a way.

    I worked my tail off at a real job, often 7 days a week, to send my son to college. I never missed a chance to tell him I loved him and was proud of him. I sure as hell never left an email, text message or phone call from him go unanswered.

    Dave you have no idea how much my stomach is churning right now when I think what life will be like for you should something happen to one of your children. David, you will never, EVER forgive yourself. Never.

    I pray to my Catholic God and to Salty’s non-Catholic God that nothing like this ever happens. I hope you really do have all the time in the world to make things right.

    But you might not, and you have absolutely no control over that.

    Please Dave, do what all of you “IM Gurus” tell us to do, take action now.

    Go to your family. BEG them to take you back. Get a job, even if you have to flip burgers. Start being a man again Dave, and do what ever it takes to fix your family. They’re hurt, but they still love you and need you. You still have time.

    1. @Joe Mudd, That was a really heartfelt and thoughtful comment, Joe. If only more fathers were like you. I hope Dave will see and take your excellent advice to heart.

    2. @Joe Mudd, you’ve got my vote for Winner : )

      Dave, if I could give you a big ol’ hug and make it all better. Dammit, I would. But, really, you can make that move. One move forward to your family. Just let it all go. Fall into their arms. Sleep, wear your pj’s for awhile and drink tea…This might take awhile, but you’ll be loved.

      Nothing beats it. No amount of dollars. No other woman. Just love.

  22. How *Crap* Can Dramatically Boost Your Profits!
    By John Reese of

    You’re about to discover something that I honestly believe can CHANGE YOUR LIFE.

    This is a concept that drives my marketing. This concept continues to make me a small fortune. Today I want to share this concept with you.

    “Crap can make you rich.”

    Don’t laugh. Let me explain.

    The beautiful thing about marketing online is that we can achieve RESULTS for anything LIGHTNING FAST.

    We can put up some Google AdWords, drive some traffic, and starting getting results in a matter of MINUTES.

    I can essentially write a sales letter, include an opt-in form, and create a little infoproduct to sell, all in less than ONE HOUR and have it getting results.

    Okay, so the product may completely STINK. i.e. it’s CRAP. The sales letter may be nothing but CRAP too. And even if someone DOES order, they’ll be getting that product which is CRAP and most likely will request a refund. Heck, after all, I only spent an hour on the entire thing.

    But none of that matters. The GOLD is not in the crap itself, the gold is in the RESULTS.

    Everything in marketing has a “Cause and Effect” — everything.

    If you put up the WORST CRAP EVER right now on a web site, something WILL happen. And those results are what eventually drives a few hundred dollars a month in profit, and eventually produces several thousand dollars a month, and can eventually create a small fortune.

    Okay, so maybe your conversion rate will initially be 1 out of 1,000. That’s okay. With enough data that 1 out of 1,000 will become a solid average and that site will CONSISTENTLY produce 1 sale out of 1,000 visitors.

    Hey, welcome to a CRAP conversion rate. :-)

    Hehe, but seriously…

    The point is this. There is tremendous value in a 1 out of 1,000 visitor conversion rate — no matter what the price of the product is. No matter what the offer is. Why? Because it’s GUARANTEED that you can IMPROVE upon it. You can make it better. You CAN get MORE people to buy.

    All you have to do is improve your marketing. Test small changes. Try a few little tweaks. Improve it little by little.

    Get better and better RESULTS.

    Here is something I want you to engrave deep into your brain…

    You will NEVER, that’s right, NEVER, launch a site or any marketing that will be even 10% of “perfect”. You’re never going to launch a site that starts pulling a 10% conversion ratio, let alone 100%.

    (And before you email me and tell me that a site you launched pulled a 10%+ conversion rate, I’m not talking about the results of a strong endorsement someone did for you. I’m talking about an AVERAGE conversion rate from ALL the traffic sources you point at your site.)

    So why are you spending SO MUCH TIME to get that latest project launched? What the heck are you waiting for?

    Know this… everyday that goes by without you launching your latest project is a day that you could be using to test and IMPROVE upon what that project produces.

    Yes, that means make you more money.

    Your project will never be perfect. You could have always made it better. You could have always done this or done that.


    “The biggest piece of crap ever created and launched online makes more money than an almost-perfect project that was never launched.”

    Is my point getting through to you?

    The biggest mistake we entrepreneurs make is trying to make our little projects PERFECT before we are willing to launch them and see what they will do.

    This can be the “kiss of death” for our businesses. Because until we launch projects we don’t get any RESULTS.

    What you need to realize is that RESULTS are the biggest ASSET to your online business. Even the CRAPPY RESULTS.

    Because the results are what tells us what is working and what isn’t. And believe me, I’ve probably made MORE MONEY from the results I discovered about things that weren’t working, so don’t just think it’s all about what works.

    So learn to produce projects on an ACCELERATED launch schedule. Just get the sucker to the quickest version that will allow you to launch it and start getting ANY results at all. Then spend your time IMPROVING on the results.

    Let’s face it. Many of our projects FLOP. It just happens. People just won’t buy enough of something to make it profitable. So we must move on and work on another project. Get it out there and see if that one starts making money. Repeating the process again and again.

    But think about what I just said and realize something. If you KNOW the reality that many of your projects will fail, why the heck are you taking so long to find out?

    It’s probably the same reason *I’ve* often delayed things… FEAR.

    I’m AFRAID to see my “baby”, my special project, fail. But since we’ve already come to realize that the reality of business is that some projects WILL FAIL, we just need to GET OVER IT.

    Put that CRAP together and launch it! Unpolished. Unperfected. Ugly. Yes, I say let the crap fly! (no, not that crap.)

    So get your projects launched absolutely, without a doubt, as quickly as possible. Get SOME results. Any results. THEN work on improving whatever those results are to increase your profits.

    If you are planning on doing JVs with people for your new product, or rolling out an affiliate program for it, the “JOHN REESE CRAP METHOD” (as I will call it) still definitely works.

    Here’s how you use it…

    You put together your web site and product as quickly as possible. Go jump on Google and buy some AdWords traffic to point at the site. Start tracking the results — no matter what they are. Make changes and TEST them. Continuously work to improve the results of the site.

    When you’re able to get the site to a satisfactory conversion level, then and only then proceed with putting together JV deals and really rolling out the product.

    You know, the biggest kiss of death for an online marketer can be to launch a product with JV partners WITHOUT having first tested and improved a site’s conversion. Do you think your JV partners are going to promote your next project if the initial one completely FLOPS and doesn’t make them any money? Absolutely not.


    1. Create and launch crap. 2. Test that crap. 3. Improve that crap. 4. Make money with crap that eventually becomes non-crap.

    Seriously. Don’t laugh. This process works. Again and again. It has made me rich.

    Learn it. Live it. Love it. Let crap make YOU rich.

    1. @Mark, Thx for reminding about John Reese, the Godfather of CRAP.

      Suffice to say that mr. Reese’s place outside the real business history will a gigantic tad different than Mr. Jobs’ INSIDE biz-hx who famously never allowed crap to be launched.

        1. @, The Steve Jobs test of business idea validity. Replace Jobs’ name as speaker to see if the quotation would make you go pee in your pants laughing. Imagine if Mr. Jobs had said:

          “1. Create and launch crap. 2. Test that crap. 3. Improve that crap. 4. Make money with crap that eventually becomes non-crap.”

          Must change my pantsnow.

    2. @Mark,

      Hey, you wanna know a way to MMO that’s even better?

      Check it: Convince other people to buy your crap about how-to-sell-crap-online!

      It’s genius! Although I think the “market” might already be a bit saturated.


      Oh yeah–and did I mention that in order to do any of this, you basically have to “sell your soul”?

      I don’t even believe in a literal soul, but when I sold books door to door that was how it felt every time. It just feels really awful to repeatedly make empty promises to people.

      Eventually, one or more of these three things will happen to you:
      * You get totally sickened by who you are now. You literally can’t bear to look at yourself in the mirror.
      * Figuratively, your conscience gets sick and goes into a coma. Now everything is easy! So why do you feel so empty inside? (See also: vampires in the Buffy-verse and the song “Evil” by Voltaire)
      * You might stop doing it. That would be ideal. But once you get deep into the cult/juggernaut/cycle-thingie it’s not nearly so easy as it would seem.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd, Hell – I just wrote for the bastards (never sold anything) but I went through the same process. I couldn’t imagine putting my name on that crap.

    3. @Mark,

      Gah! The IM scammers have ripped off the “fail fast forward” thinking of the LEAN development methodology?! Of course, just like when Naomi ripped off customer personas, John Reese is doing it wrong, though. The point of multiple iterations is to add more value for customers, not make money off suckers.

      Do you think they go through AdWeek at these IM conferences and split up who’s gonna rip off what real-world strategy?

      1. @Lanna ::

        Do you think they go through AdWeek at these IM conferences and split up who’s gonna rip off what real-world strategy?


        1. @SD,

          Nah, they don’t have to.
          The only real life strategy they need to follow is the one that convinces people to pay high prices for bottled water.

        2. @SD,

          Of course, I could be wrong.. but I’m sensing that this is the kind of simple, firm, declarative that could be a future article on this site.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

    4. @Mark,

      The point Johnboy Reece makes is crystal clear:

      Anybody can do Internet Marketing…so long as they have money to pay for his course

      According to John:

      Have no idea for a product…no problem sell shit and call it a product

      John they’re gonna like you in prison

  23. Sad sad story. There are plenty of “Naomis” in all walks of life, but this particular one has a whole fake industry based on exactly the same tactics she seems to have used to get herself a man. Caught in two webs of false promises.

  24. This is to Allison:

    My heart goes out to you. The nightmare of having your husband turn into someone you don’t even recognize is bad enough, but then having to deal with the real world crises that don’t stop just because you’re in grief and shock, must be unendurable. And yet, you are dealing with it. Each day you are able to put one foot in front of another until evening comes. Be proud of what you are accomplishing; you are an amazing role model to your children and to strangers on the internet.

    Don’t feel guilty when you look back and think that you might have been nagging Dave about bills. It was not your fault. Jade said something about the people in that world needing balance. You probably staved off his crisis for a long time, forcing Dave to focus on the real world- until he just couldn’t anymore. You were his balance for so long. But no one can do that forever.

  25. I see the picture of Dave walking hand in hand with his adoring son down a tree lined path on a beautiful sunny day, and I think “what a rich man”. Is there any amount of money worth more than that? I think not. Go home and find your true treasure, Dave.

  26. I don’t want to absolve Dunford or the larger creepy, f-ed up IM world for this horrific situation, but it seems like there’s another component to the mess…

    It sure seems like Navarro is suffering from very real mental health problems. You don’t hit the deck when you hear the Wendy’s drive-through if you’re functioning well. You don’t give up on hygiene or make weird matter-of-fact “I’m outta here” statements unless your melon is suffering from at least a wee bit of rot.

    Those who reside in the Magical Land of Unicorns may have played a role in pushing Navarro into a messed up mental state, but I have my doubts that this story has a happy ending without some professional psych help for the guy.

    By all accounts, he was dealt a shitty hand in life, bouncing through a pretty crap-heavy childhood–that would seemingly make his a little more prone to mental health issues than the average guy… Just sayin’… He probably does need to go home, but he should probably make an appointment with a mental health pro or check himself in somewhere either before or immediately after reaching out to his family.

    If he’s not carrying insurance, he might want to think about forwarding the bills for treatment to the Syndicate, Dunford, et al.

    1. @Just Sayin’,

      Dave’s behavior sounds really similar to mine. More than once, I’ve retreated into a world where I cut off communication with my family and obsessed over my business for years at a time.

      My history is slightly different because I realized early on that I would be a terrible parent, so I never had children. But other than that, I can totally relate to Dave’s behavior.

      And, getting to your point about Dave’s mental health, my official diagnosis starts with depression and goes on from there.

      It’s gotta be hard for people who care for Dave and/or rely on him. I know it’s hard for people in my life.

      (And, in a side note to everybody who’s saying to Dave “Just go back and be a normal guy,” if he’s mentally ill, it ain’t that easy.)

      1. @Just Jake,

        Same here, sometimes in the past when things didn’t work out for me, I’d have this gap between what my life was supposed to be and what my life actually was, and I see a lot of wannabe marketers in similar situations. It must be hard to face reality and be reminded every day that you’re actually not a success, but someone trying to copy a group of unsophisticated salesmen who themselves copy sort-of-sophisticated salesmen.

        Imagine, all you surround yourself with are videos of the rich and (sort of) famous, while all you’re doing is publishing rehashed GetRichLazy-guides with no information that has actually helped you in a practical way.

        I can see how running away from it all and hiding from all the judging eyes may seem as an alternative, that you might just need a few ways to work it all out, but it really isn’t.

        Half of my job is talking to clients or holding presentations, and if you’re full of shit, it shows in person much faster than it shows in copy.

        So I accepted my failures, got back out there, and realized that people actually want to work with somebody who knows all this nerdy traffic and conversion stuff, real businesses with real products.

        And tbh, I’d rather go back to managing PPC ads for some dull B2B service than join the GRQ-crowd. All the whoring out to promote some new sham? The ridiculous bonus battles? The overused and underdeveloped launch models?

        1. @Clark,

          Somehow the end of my comment got cut off. Let’s try again:

          And tbh, I’d rather go back to managing PPC ads for some dull B2B service than join the GRQ-crowd. All the whoring out to promote some new sham? The ridiculous bonus battles? The overused and underdeveloped launch models?

            1. @Jack, Just dawned to me on awakening that posting My Little Pony vids on the “Hate Site” maybe can be considered as an attractive nuisance ;-) (depending about section 230 thing)…and no I’m not talking about AppleJack Skatje “Bestiality” Myers.

  27. Sounds like Dave has had a full blown psychotic break and has serious bi-polar syndrome, manic phase.

    Dave doesn’t need to go home; Dave first needs to check himself in to a mental health institution.

  28. After learning all of this, I can’t help but feel like this about pissy myers and his pseudo intellectual bullshit:

    Dave, I know you’re not gonna see this, but you need to get your head out of your ass and go home. Actually, pull your head out of Naomi’s ass and then go home. Your unicorn, is dead, and once something dies, it never comes back to life.

    Dave, you’re not being weak or meek, by getting the mental and emotional help that you need. It is both weak and meek to hide out the way that you’re doing.

    Allison is a strong woman and any man would be lucky to have her by their side. Go home before it’s too late Dave.

  29. A bit of unsolicited advice, if I may: Stop writing the other stuff and write more stuff like this. This is, in my opinion, your best post on this blog to date.

    1. For SD to “stop writing the other stuff” would not be a good idea. That “other stuff” that he writes about is the root cause of “this stuff.” This, however, is certainly a poignant reminder of where that other stuff can lead, and definitely a great post.

  30. I wonder if it is possible to sue for alienation of affection. North Carolina is one of the states that still allows that kind of tort suit. It certainly seems to meet the criteria. There seems to be no lack of documented evidence to prove the case. Love the pic of the kiddo dressed as Link. It is heartbreaking he lost his real life hero.

    1. @Yvette Scott ::

      I could sue her too … so could Anthony. But she’s a score-to-score scammer … so she wouldn’t have any monies.

      But North Carolina does still have some really backward ass family laws. Adultery is still technically criminal … and it still factors large into things like alimony payments. And there’s a one year waiting period after separation before you can file for divorce … but I’m sure you can walk right into WalMart and buy an AK-47 no probs.

      Grow up North Carolina.

  31. I’m not sure when Dave Navarro left this testimonial on Danielle LaPorte’s page but it’s rather hauntingly sad to read it now in light of further developments:

    “I completely needed what was in these 192 pages to take my business (and sanity) to the next level. Things I knew I needed to clarify, to make room for, to admit were true and to get into writing – all drawn out by a ‘Workbook O’ Fire’ that lives up to its name.

    I’m savoring my way through…and loving it. And though my life is too busy as it is, I’ve scheduled a standing weekly appointment to work through Danielle’s ass-kicking, fire-lighting, stakes-raising worksheets until. I’m. done. I’m admitting, forgiving, clarifying, imagining, and (most importantly) becoming – and I’ve needed this for a long time.

    If you’ve got the means…get your fire on. You’ll thank yourself for it.”
    – Dave Navarro |


    It’s difficult to read that now. LaPorte charged $150 for her “Fire Starter Kit” and I’ve got no idea how much she bilked Dave out of for those standing weekly appointments but I’ll bet it wasn’t cheap. He took his sanity to the next level all right…he lost it.

    A fire starter kit, so you can reduce your life and that of your loving family’s to a pile of ashes. Danielle must be so proud. She could reissue it and call it “Workbook O’ Destruction”.

    1. @Barbara, Yes… This Danielle Laporte is an interesting character not mentioned here before…

      Her videos and posts are quite something…

      She says a lot “it’s all about me baby!” which is weird yet straightforward at the same time.

      In her videos she’s talking to the camera as if she was seducing someone…

      Quite a character !

        1. @Sundog,

          Well, like Wide Eyes said in the above comment, she’s weird yet straightforward.

          She says she’s been selling her soul for ten years. And still no takers? Satan must have gotten picky…

        2. If you want to see that bullshit for what it REALLY is, watch the video on the home page with the audio turned completely OFF. You’ll see the bullshit dance in a whole new light.

          And don’t miss the bio page…it’s also a steaming pile and a half:

        3. @Sundog,

          Well yeah. From my experiences with selling books door to door many years ago, that’s basically what it takes on every sale–sell your soul just a little bit more each time.

          It’s very crappy. Very quickly what happens is either you have to stop or else you become sort of dead inside.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

        4. @Sundog, is it me or are these people not even trying to hide their evil anymore. They are telling you to your face.

      1. @SD,

        That video was so revolting to watch it should come with a warning. Something along the lines of “This video acts as an emetic.”

        The cliche she spouts in this video has become a common excuse for incredibly selfish parents of both genders. This idea that “the best thing you can do for your child is to set an example of being happy and fullfilled in your own life” has certainly been used to cover a multitude of sins.

        So, if there’s a conflict between being a parent and your own selfish desires, choose you! Because someday the kid will thank you for following your bliss. Not bloody likely, in the short term your child will be deeply hurt and cry themselves to sleep every night. In the long term your child will develop issues with trust and have trouble with their own intimate relationships.

        It’s very revealing that Danielle LaPorte chose fire starting as her personal metaphor. Fire starters generally have poor interpersonal and peer skills, have a history of aggresive behavior, do poorly in academic settings, have major problems with impulse control and low self-esteem masked by narcissism.

        That sounds like a portrait of Naomi Dunford and many other internet marketers. You can see where a steady diet of this type of “coaching” could lead a person into abandoning children and cloaking it in the garb of “self-development”.

        1. @Barbara,

          Danielle LaPorte is so excited about herself she can’t help but brag that she doesn’t have an education above high school…Her “credentials”?

          Working for some anonymous ‘think tank’ in Washington and some other horse-puckey…I saw her speak to a group of women and she instantly offended the audience with her banter about how ‘looking good’ is really important, to spend more time on your appearance etc. (this crowd was a low-income, inner city group)…She was hawking her ‘style statement’ book back then (she got fired from that gig eventually).

          She’s full of shit to the nth. Another ridiculous persona built on 2 dimensions and a lot of Shine – O – La.

  32. After getting more of a sense of the hardships endured by all parties involved it strikes me that Salty’s influence doesn’t come without collateral damage. From reading this post you get a real sense that Salty’s work has made matters worse, especially for the family involved. Am I the only one that thinks this situation, from the perspective of Dave’s child and wife, would have better prospects without the additional attention caused through Salty?

    There’s a lot to be said for calling people out who are proven to be exploiting other people online and giving victims a voice. But I have to say the line between fighting a good cause and doing it to draw attention and add unnecessary controversy seems to be crossed more often now. I’m embarrassed to be reading this blog so often, it’s like a british tabloid with an axe to grind. It strikes the same category of hot buttons that IM guru’s use to exploit people into buying their horseshit (negativity and controversy sells, dangling the promise of easy solutions sells).

    1. @Reality Check,

      “Am I the only one that thinks this situation, from the perspective of Dave’s child and wife, would have better prospects without the additional attention caused through Salty?”

      Yes, you are the only one.

      If you find it embarrassing to read this blog, then stop.

      “dangling the promise of easy solutions”

      That’s laughably stupid. When has anyone here ever suggested the solution to this family’s pain would be easy? Is that you, Naomi? Let Dave go home.

      1. @Barbara,

        So what’s your excuse for indulging in the chastising of people you likely have never met in real life? Wanting to bet you get some sense of satisfaction out of it, based on your comment rate. What does that say about you?

        Just for clarity’s sake, what I meant with easy solutions was referring to what marketers do, to make sales that is. It grabs people’s attention. What tabloids do is sell negativity because it sells. It’s easy to draw attention using either of those tactics by manipulating information. I wasn’t saying that this site is providing easy solutions. It’s a little pretentious to think that mere social pressure from a group of judgmental people is going to provide that motivational spark within Dave to get his life together.

        Salty is obviously not motivated by money but his blog posts are written like a tabloid. I’m willing to bet the majority of people reading this blog like a tabloid. Deny it all you want.

        1. @Reality Check, The majority of people reading this blog are doing so because they have personal experience being screwed, swindled, scammed, cheated, persuaded, manipulated and nlp-ed out of hard earned dollars by sleazy internet marketing assholes and this is the ONLY place they can sense any sort of justice, vindication, understanding or intelligence regarding this crap-based industry that has had a critic-free ride on the internet for the past 10 years. I know that because I began my journey in 2002. Deny it all you want, but you lost your bet. I lost my own bet that cost me over $14,000, that I could have freedom from a job and make money at home, etc. etc. etc. by buying crap from scumbags. too bad this site wasn’t around back then. This majority is a sad but wiser group.

          A minority of people reading this blog have heard about internet marketing crapola and come here to learn more about it and soon learn that it pays to keep their money in their own wallet and not give it to criminals. This is a grateful minority.

          A tiny minority of people come here to make judgments about the people reading this blog and second guess their motivations.

          The site doesn’t sell negativity. It just tells the truth. some people can’t handle it well, though. They call it collateral damage, huh.

          1. @Regrets,

            I wouldn’t deny there’s going to be lots of people reading this blog because they’ve had prior crappy experiences with the people that are written about here, some cases more extreme than others. Everybody’s got experiences with bad companies and bad people.

            Yeah, of course there’s some sense of justice to be gained from seeing a form of punishment for scammers by being outed publicly. Is that the main motivation for most visits to his site? I beg to differ. For many IM’ers this is like getting in the gossip of the industry – it’s hard not to read. You could replicate this type of site in any industry and you’d get a lot of people to read it.

            I’ve bought an IM product (years ago, stompernet) before and found the experience appalling. I don’t continue to visit because I need to be continually reminded that there is a lot of scamming going around and that I should feel scammed myself. I visit because to me it’s gossip and I can’t help myself sometimes. I recognize a lot of the names from IM so yeah, you kind of watch them because they are the celebrities of the internet. It can be good to see people derail after I’ve seen them scamming other people. And that’s not something I’m proud of to be honest, because it serves no purpose.

            “It just tells the truth”
            Salty is not interesting in present information in an unbiased way (and why should he be). How can a reader ascertain the truth when they are being fed only snippets of a story dressed in inflammatory commentary, published in pieces aimed to drum up visitor counts. We don’t even know Dave’s side of the story – how is it possible to have any balanced idea of the truth of this whole ordeal?

            1. @Reality Check,

              I’m kind of half-way wondering if @Realty Check, The Proxy Server might actually be Naomi Lies-With-The-Truth Dunford.

              Yeah, I know–crazy speculation. *shrug*

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Reality Check,

      It’s funny. I accused Salty of sensationalism just the other day.

      @SD‘s response (emphasis added):

      @Wyrd ::

      I think “sensationalism” doesn’t apply here at all. This is a very serious subject with copious horror and death … and almost no one else is talking about it. The stories end up quite sensational because that’s what they are … there’s nothing unnatural or exploitative about it.

      I recently did that interview with Aaron Wall :: but prior to that I’d never done one … and not because I didn’t have offers. I’m sitting on hundreds of GREAT stories that I’ll never get to tell. In fact :: I can say without reservation I’m sitting on all the best stories. But I can’t tell them for various reasons having to do with always putting the mission first.

      If you feel all this stuff is way too personal, maybe you should let PZ Myers’ know. Please tell him he should not participate in Naomi’s character assassination of Anthony Navarro. Or would that perhaps be too personal as well?

      Have I met any of these people? No. Have you? No. Has PZ Myers? I’m guessing no.

      Has @SD/Jason? Yes. Yes, as a matter of fact he has. It is my understanding that he has Alison’s and Anthony’s permission to post about these things. He extends them that courtesy because they are co-lateral damage victims of IM rather than perpetrators.

      If you go back two blog-posts ago, you’ll see @SD says the reason why he’s gone on to post all this deeply personal stuff is because of the specific situation.

      PZ Myers shot his mouth off about things he’s poorly informed on.. That’s normal. People do that all the time. I’ve done it. You just did it when you wrote your post.

      But the difference is PZ has a bunch of fanboys. They’re not all the same–some of them are probably really, reasonable. But there’s a percentage of them that seem to take great glee in trashing religion and religious people out of a false sense of superiority. There’s a lot of sad irony in that.

      But if you really want to take it back, this started when Naomi posted on her blog that she’d received death threats. In her follow-up post, she talked about two mean sites–this one and Letters to Dave Navarro.

      Her perspective on the situation is kind of a lot different than everyone else’s. Also she lies a lot.

      I think it’s important to see the differences between this site and a tabloid.

      For one thing, this site has actual facts and information (I am aware that on very rare occasions, tabloids do research and provide true information. But that’s the exception.)

      This site has an actual mission: link []

      What tabloid was there ever that had any mission other than crass entertainment?

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd,
        This site is not exactly the same as a tabloid – as I said, it’s like a tabloid with an ax to grind. That ax is stated as coming to the defense of victims and to out scammers who are exploiting people. That in itself is a great cause, obviously. In terms of the IM industry, this site brings at least a modicum of accountability and a sense of vindication for people who’ve been scammed. I think it adds value in that way.

        I haven’t really read PZ’s stuff regarding this drama so I can’t comment on that. He’s another snarky writer with an ardent blog community who join in on every bash he does in his writing. The irony is that there are a lot of similarities between this blog and his – if you look beyond the current topic matter. You have a writer who writes compelling, putdown material and a host of commenters who like the whole process and join in. You can find it on any snarky blog. You ask any individual commenter why they do it and they’ll find a way to justify it with a sensible reason.

        For an atheist it could be because of past experiences that involved religion. For a new age critic it could be because they felt conned by some new age guru. For an internet marketeer it could be because they bought into the marketing of gurus and were unable to translate it into success. There are all kinds of legitimate, deeply emotional, impactful, tearinducing reasons. But, hell, that’s just part of the reason that makes people return over and over again. At some point it becomes more to get satisfaction out of criticism and the initial motivation just becomes the justification to do it.

        And the problem with that is, looking at the comments, that people just fall back into thinking with a filter on, trusting blindly on what is being fed to them. It’s easy to be an apologist when you have a worthy cause. It’s also evident that people don’t seem to care what the consequences of Salty’s motivations, style and methods are. I think as readers we are part to blame for the escalation of Dave’s family situation, because we’ve given Salty so much attention (and he feeds of it, there’s no denying it).

        How useful was it to have all this private life stuff in the public domain? Like a tabloid, nobody seems to care too much, especially because there’s a good cause that justifies it.

        1. @Reality Check, aka proxyserver aka something-to-hide:

          “it’s like a tabloid with an ax to grind”

          Translation: “I don’t like it when the flashlight of truth is shined into my dark cave.”

        2. @Reality Check, when you financially sodomize other people, you give up that rare and delicious privilege called “privacy”.

    3. @Reality Check, As a Brit, let me be clear: the tone may seem tabloid-like at times, but there is a thousand times more journalistic integrity on this site than can be found in all of the British tabloids combined.

      1. @,
        It’s hard not to have more integrity than the hardcore british tabloids. I’m confident Salty is discerning about what material to publish and what not, he has his own standards clearly ruled by his personal sense of ethics and morals. Whether or not that is resembling complete integrity, it’s hard to say given some of the pieces of private information he’s published that clearly wasn’t meant to be shared around.

        Readers probably won’t find that a point worth paying too much attention to when it’s about, say Stompernet or a run of the mill guru, or the Syndicate. In a lot of ways I’m glad there’s a place like this because the IM industry doesn’t regulate itself properly – there are very few trustworthy places to raise issues. There’s a lot of censorship on blogs and in communities around IM because people have a commercial interest in the way things are.

        Salty on the other hand, imo has created his own platform where he gets to play judge and jury over people he feels (deservingly or not) should be put to shame. It’s ruled by his own idea of what is right or not and information is presented in a way that supports his line of judgment (a hardline stance, with no area of gray). He’s created a lot of influence, which in this case – at least from where I am looking – has backfired.

        He’s got enough influence to really harm the reputation of a person. Of course, you could say if they are appearing on this blog, based on Salty’s historic choices, they deserve it – as he doesn’t pick people at random. But, in this case, we’ve seen people who don’t have it together emotionally and mentally respond very badly to Salty’s publicity and it has very real consequences even to the people he is trying to support.

    4. @Reality Check

      “Am I the only one that thinks this situation, from the perspective of Dave’s child and wife, would have better prospects without the additional attention caused through Salty?”

      No, you’re not the only one. I agree with you completely.

      There are two sides to this story and everything we read here is coming from one side. Everything we read on certain other sites is coming from the other.

      Maybe Dave is 100% to blame for this, and he’s an asshole who walked out on his family. Maybe his brother really is a fundamentalist nutbar who is scaring the shit out of him. Or maybe there’s other stuff going on that we don’t have any clue about.

      But airing it on a blog that is heavily biased towards one side of the situation, or more accurately biased against what appears to have led to this situation, is not helping in my opinion.

      I couldn’t listen to those audios, not because it was hard to hear Allison telling her story but because hearing Jason respond to them made it feel scummy. This is some guy that targets scammers and is suddenly providing moral support in a situation like this?

      In my opinion, this whole sordid tale is when Salty Droid jumped the shark.

      1. @Anonymous Bastard,

        There may be two sides to every story but in some situations it’s abundantly clear that there is only one right side. And when it comes to walking out on children and abandoning them there is no “other” side. That’s wrong, no matter what.

        As for listening to the conversations between the Droid and Alison my reaction was to admire both individuals involved. Alison spoke with greater restraint, fairness and compassion than 99% of the population could under such heartbreaking circumstances. When I listen to her it’s balm to my ears after the filth and lies I’ve encountered at Naomi&friends blogs.

        I didn’t feel “scummy” after listening. I hope that the Salty Droid is providing some much needed moral support for this family and, for what it’s worth, I’d like to add my own voice and tell Anthony, Alison and her children that I hope this situation is resolved soon. If it’s possible for Dave to get help and be a husband and father to his kids again, that’s the best possible outcome. But one way or another he needs to face up to his family and talk to them.

        As for Dunford, prison should be her next stop. She is poisonous at all times and to all people. I can’t see any redeeming qualities in her.

        1. @Barbara,
          This is about people’s private lives, I don’t see how we as readers have anything to do with it. This matter escalated even further by becoming a public ordeal, even Naomi’s crackpot posts wouldn’t have happened without the publicity here.

          Punishing people might feel empowering but it doesn’t solve shit, it just creates more fucked up lives. I guess I have a hard time relating to the mindset of a country where 1 in every 100 adults is actually in jail.

      2. @AnonymousBastard & @RealityCheck ::

        Couldn’t you two be shallow and pointless with fewer words? If you think I suck … or that I “jumped the shark” … because of one of the most interesting and important {and popular} stories so far … then just leave. Why talk about it so much? I obviously don’t give a shit … people have criticized every one of my moves from the start. I’ll do what I want :: when I want :: how I want. Suck it.

        But for sake of everyone else :: did I make things worse for the Navarros?

        Yes … basically … short term I did. Naomi’s reaction to me created a public spectacle that unfairly tainted the Navarros not named Dave. And it increased interpersonal tensions in an already tense situation … seemingly leaving Dave unable to say a single word to Alison.

        But I’m the truth teller … not the action taker. Revelation of truth often creates short term calamities … because repression of truth is such a dangerously unnatural activity. When tyrannies fall … civil war usually follows … because core tensions have remained unexpressed. When a centrally controlled economy is released back into a more natural state :: aka “shock therapy” :: chaos always ensues.

        The disgusting blackness of this situation :: no matter what happens :: is the responsibility of the unicorn machine … not on me/us for tearing off its dark veil.

        I warned both Anthony and Alison that this would be nasty and unpredictable. Neither of them so much as flinched. There’s a lot of shit out there … but there’s a lot of bravery too .. and a lot of compassion.

        1. @SD

          “Couldn’t you two be shallow and pointless with fewer words? If you think I suck … or that I “jumped the shark” … because of one of the most interesting and important {and popular} stories so far … then just leave. Why talk about it so much? I obviously don’t give a shit … people have criticized every one of my moves from the start. I’ll do what I want :: when I want :: how I want. Suck it.”

          Wow, sounds like we touched a nerve.

          This story being popular has no bearing on anything. Supermarket tabloids and celebrity “news” shows are popular too but I don’t think that they’re helping anybody with the crap they spew, true or not.

          It sounds like you’re no better than the people you’re targeting on this site, judging by the “just leave” comment. As soon as somebody disagrees with you or criticizes what you’re doing, you tell them to leave? Not far from the attitude of most of the people you target where you should avoid anyone who doesn’t share your “success goals.”

          I guess I should have realized you have no interest in balanced discussion, just pushing your agenda and hearing positive feedback on it.

          I’ve been commenting here for a while and I think if you look back over those comments, I’ve supported you in most of them. But I’m not some kind of sycophant that agrees with everything you say by default.

          I guess I overestimated your interest in hearing (let alone accepting) different opinions. I’ll just keep mine to myself from now on, and as you say “just leave.”

          Good luck with your little crusade here Salty. I hope you continue to find a bunch of people who hang on your every word and post their “You’re so great!” comments.

          And I’m sorry if you feel this comment should have been made with fewer words. I guess I’m just not able to condense things down with the same skill as you. Maybe I should study the creative use of colons ;-)

          1. @Anonymous Bastard ::

            … slow claps.

            Great exit speech :: never heard any of that before … except always.

            This story being popular has no bearing on anything.

            It bears upon your use of the idiom “jump the shark” … which is a reference to gimmicky tricks used in a failing attempt to revive the popularity of a thing passed its peak.

            I’m sorry for assuming that you knew the meaning of the words you were using.

        2. @SD,

          You’re cool. And honorable (provided a person isn’t doing IM-MMO or some other scammy type thing). Anthony Navarro and Alison Navarro are cool and honorable as well.

          I don’t know what @AnonymousBastard’s and @RealityCheck’s major malfunction is.

          The thing is, they seem to only be able to express their opinion with ye olde vitriol. People that are like that get boring to me very quickly. *shrug*

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

  33. LaPorte’s nonsense is reminding me strongly of Dunford’s brand of hooey.

    “Question 2.5 in The Burning Questions of The Fire Starter Sessions and with my 1:1 clients is this:

    How much money would you LIKE to be making?

    “As Naomi Dunford put this question to me, “The best way to think about this question is this…we want the number that would make you happy. Not resigned. Not elated. Just happy. Somewhere between eating Ramen noodles and buying a yacht. “I wanna rake in a million bucks this year! (says dude who just launched his first blog or has $50K in credit card debt.) If your declaration has a flavour of rebellion or feverishness to it, you might want to reign it in a bit.”

    Ah, yes. These writing coaches, editors, professional writers still make rookie mistakes like substituting “reign”, what a king does, with “rein”, meaning guiding a horse. I don’t care when people make spelling or grammar errors in comments but I do care when these idiots who put themselves out there as “copywriters” or “professional bloggers” make these ridiculus types of errors. Why would anyone pay someone for their supposed writing skills when they’ve never learned about homophones? Or at least they’ve never learned the importance of proofreading their work.

    This answers my question about costs of LaPorte’s “coaching”:

    LaPorte: “my 1-on-1 consults are $1,000..I feel strongly that divine inspiration works best with common sense. It’s got to feel good!”

    It better feel damn good for a thousand dollars a session….’nuff said.

    1. @Barbara,

      Danielle is the one who helps promote weekends with her literary agent Linda Silversten. Linda lists, among her writing credits, the book Harmonic Wealth, with co-author James A Ray.

        1. @SD,

          Linda also has this promotion on her site:

          “Linda and her now 18-year-old son, Tosh, have released Generation Green: The Ultimate Teen Guide to Living an Eco-Friendly Life—with one of the world’s largest teen imprints at Simon & Schuster.”

          I have a couple of questions for Linda, would she encourage Tosh to attend one of James Ray’s death tent events?

          And a minor point, why would you name a child Tosh?

          “tosh – pretentious or silly talk or writing
          baloney, bilgewater, boloney, bosh, drool, humbug, tommyrot, twaddle, taradiddle, tarradiddle
          hokum, meaninglessness, nonsense, nonsensicality, bunk – a message that seems to convey no meaning”

        2. @SD, I emailed Linda Silversten:

          On Oct 14, 2011, at 10:47 PM, Barbara wrote:

          You do realize James Ray is responsible for the deaths of four people, don’t you?

          Three in his notorious death tent and Collen Conaway in San Diego all met their untimely deaths through their unfortunate association with Ray.

          Why do you still proudly associate your name with his?


          She replied:

          “Oh goodness… I’m having the old site taken down and haven’t even thought of that site. Went through a tough divorce and have been busy picking up the pieces. I’m sorry if my mention of him offended you. I, too, was heartbroken by what happened. The book was written several years before the tragedy and it was an example to clients that I can deliver a project well.

          Thank you for writing, and I look forward to having my new site replace that one within 3-4 weeks.”


          1. @Barbara,

            She’s sorry if she’s offended you.
            She was heartbroken that the murders happened.
            She looks forward to replacing that mention on her website.
            But she’s not sorry she did the work, because it’s a good case study.

            I guess that’s fair, but it doesn’t take Linda off our watch-list.

        3. @SD,

          Ugh, I was wondering if Barbara Stanny would ever tie into all this, and there’s her testimoanial, right under Dave’s. She has an MLM-like network of trained speakers and speaking trainers who are authorized to deliver her Secrets of Successful High Earners workshops. One of my (Landmark Forum alum) clients recommended it, so I gave it a try. It seemed sort of helpful at the time, but honestly my business advanced a whole lot more when I finally filled out my entire business plan based on SCORE’s template.

          Every day, in every way, I am becoming more and more aware of my own gullibility.

  34. Dear Dave,

    When I was 14 my father left us high and dry for his girlfriend. I lost everything when this happened.

    I didn’t just lose my father but his entire side of the family since he turned them all against us. My Mom suffered emotionally and had to be hospitalized and barely survived. We lost our house. I did massive amounts of drugs and constantly thought about taking my life.

    I hated my dad for doing this. I hated him for the pain he brought my mom and my sisters. I was filled with hate. How I survived the next 7 years is without a doubt a miracle. Lets just say they were the worst years of my life.

    To me parental abandonment is simply the worst kind of cruelty you can do to a child.

    I couldn’t admit it then and didn’t for a very long time but what tore my heart to pieces was I lost my Dad. I idolized my Dad. He was everything to me.

    Basically my father turned his back on all of us all for sex with some woman and despite all that he did I still loved him.

    I never stopped loving him.

    I know that’s fucked up to still love him after all he did to me and my family but I did.

    My love for him was unconditional…that’s what

    I won’t lie and say it’s all a bed of roses today with him but we do have a relationship.

    I was able to find peace with all of this and with him. It wasn’t easy but it happened.

    It’s never too late. I’m sure your boys have unconditional love for you

    You can turn this around. It won’t be easy but it’s worth it. your boys are worth it

  35. Naomi Dunford being interviewed on Work It, Mom:

    What advice would you give to a mom who wants to start her own business?

    “Only follow advice from people who have the life you want, not from people who have the life you have. They are not qualified to give you the advice you need.
    Also, the advice that comes from loved ones is almost always antithetic to your goals. Because they know and love the old you, they give advice appropriate for the old you. You need advice for the new you.”

    The true Naomi speaks, ignore your loved ones, they’re holding you back! Of course your spouse is not qualified to give you advice, (but a trash-talking internet whore is?), they don’t know the new you, the one that has no moral compass. And Naomi, the word you are looking for is antithetical, once again your “riting skilz” fail you.

    1. @Barbara,

      Funny how that works

      The people who know you and love you…ignore

      The people selling you the fantasy – where you cant verify one iota of their claims…believe

      The hook they use to con you is to ask you if they could work less and make more would you be interested?

      Who doesn’t want that?

      The second hook they use to con you is to create the fantasy in your mind of the day you walk in and quit your job…

      Who doesn’t want to tell their boss to fuck off?

      The last hook is to make this a quest for a better life

      Who doesn’t want a better life?

      You see it’s far easier to run up your credit cards if this is a quest for a better life

      It’s easier to overlook the con if your fantasizing about telling your boss you quit

      It’s easier to overlook all the inconsistencies in the story, all the holes in the concept, the lack of irrefutable proof if you’ve got your eye somewhere else

      It’s called sleight of hand

      The distraction is to get you focused on how much you hate your job, how hard you work, how under paid you are…all the good things you can never get

      If these con artists could ever do what they claim they would put their head down and work their ass off and clean up financially…not sell it to you for $47

      1. @Shit Storm, Well written. I hope all the turd faced liars out there read this blog and realize that they are under the microscope every which way from now on. If they think they are suffering for the all the lies and manipulation they used now, just wait until the real shit hits the fan. Their lives will never be the same again and all the whinging and blaming others for their own turd faced lies will be mud on their faces forever. I worked for one of these turd faced liars and I know first hand what tactics they use to screw around with peoples lives and hide relationships from their families and partners just to keep the whole charade going and satisfy their own egotistical fantasies for a very short period in time. The consequences and payback lasts a lifetime so I hope the trip was worth it.

  36. Jesus, why are you so interested in gossiping about these people?

    Did I stumble on TMZ for non-celebrities or IM Scammers?

    I could care less about these folk’s personal lives. Everybody has crap and there are multiple sides and shades to every story.

    Trying to make people do stuff never works. People do what they want to do and that’s all there is to it. Guilting, manipulating, bullying folks to do the right thing never works. Right people do the right thing, but folks are rarely right about anything all of the time. They have to figure it out for themselves.

    Alison needs to get it together and realize that she married a dweeb and is a single mother now. There are lots of us, honey. You can do it. Stop whining to other people and get your crap together. Put the kids first. Who they have now is you. Instead of being mad or being a victim, be a woman, make the sacrifices you will need to make, hold the home together and keep those fires burning.

    Everybody has problems, some serious, some less so. I know folks dying of cancer who would love to have those problems.

    I thought this was a site exposing IM Scammers, not acting like Perez Hilton’s female dog.

      1. @Barbara, Who the hell is Naomi?

        Oh, is she the bitch that stole Alison’s man? If I were Alison, that sorry bitch would be beneath my notice or attention. She didn’t marry Alison, the dweeb did.

        I’m wondering why do you give a damn? Are you related to these people?

        1. @Me, Not Stupid,

          It’s called EMPATHY, something sociopaths and psychopaths lack.

          Not that I’m suggesting that you could be suffering from that mental disorder – much.

          1. @Alley.Cat, You’d get better fodder for your empathetic wank fests at the celebrity gossip blogs. Just sayin’

    1. @Neigh goes the horse,

      The story of all these cons is what goes unreported…lives are changed for the worse

      Tell me do you think Naomi Dunford is full of shit and shouldn’t be advising anyone on how to better a life?

      No fucking way

      Neither should Dave Navaro

      There’s a reason these people sell IM bullshit…because they have no real value to teach on building a business and they know that they can con a sale by hyping (lying)a worthless concept as a life changer and make easy money

      These people need to be exposed

      …AND nobody gets to tell us how deep we expose these con artists

      the message is simple…you will all get indicting before this is over

      There’s no limit to how far the covers are pulled back…

  37. SaltyDroid, the Perez Hilton of Internet Marketers? At least, find some folks more pretty to gossip about please. At least Demi and Ashton look good (although I don’t give a damn about their private foibles either).

    Are y’all also the Al Sharpton of victimized complainers too?

    Boohoo, he left me, Whine, Sniff, Sob, Cry….He’p me, pleeeze because I’m too weak and victim to take care of my own bizness, MOOOOOOOANNN, MOOOOOO.

  38. SaltyDroid, the Perez Hilton of Internet Marketers? At least, find some folks more pretty to gossip about please. At least Demi and Ashton look good (although I don’t give a damn about their private foibles either).

    Are y’all also the Al Sharpton of victimized complainers too?

    Boohoo, he left me, Whine, Sniff, Sob, Cry….He’p me, pleeeze because I’m too weak and victim to take care of my own bizness, MOOOOOOOANNN, MOOOOOO.

  39. Let me blame, cry, and moan, in addition to bouncing checks rather than hustling and taking care of business to take care of my kids.

    Rather than begging that sorry-ass man to come back, he’d be damn lucky to ever see his kids again or ever see more that a mere percentage of his paycheck after I sicced the courts on his cheatin’ rear end.

    What a poster child for sorry, weak women–whoever that woman you wrote about is.

    She needs to call Reverend Jesse Jackson too. Maybe he’d help her get some handouts and sympathy.

    What do weak, sniveling women and cheating, sorry men have to do with IM Scammers? Enlighten me.

    1. @Bitch Stole My Man,

      Bless your heart. No one’s responded to you yet so you needed to post a few more times?

      1. @Anon, Apparently so…

        I guess I’ll just go send an e-mail to Jesse and Al to take up the cause here too, since you’re so interested in the marital woes and sex lives of those broke victims.

        Why not just send money? Sheesh.

    2. @Bitch Stole My Man ::

      Gosh … you’re so mad … so many pathetic comments over such a short period … all of them impossibly delusional.

      You sound even sluttier when you’re mad. But seriously :: keep your pants on beefcake … none of us want to see that.

      I like when you said “who is Naomi” … ha! You really suck at this!

      Anywayz :: I’m glad this has you so freaked.

      1. @SD, I used to like you, but you are sooooo sexist.

        You defend the cheatin’, family-abandoning Dave Navarro and pile everything on the other woman, who did not rape the man or make any vows before God and everybody to Alison. Dave Navarro is the bad guy…the other Bitch is simply a fool because if he can do it to his wife and kids, he certainly will do it to her.

        I was silent for weeks behind this crap, but the last post just made me throw up in mouth and I finally spoke up. I’m probably not the only silent bystander and former fan who is sick of your championing of the cheatin’ and no-good Dave Navarro, the silly weak and whiny Alison, and her unhinged, interfering brother-in-law.

        Don’t worry, I’m out of here, permanently. Carry on with your silly women dissing and man cheatin’ defense–whilst you forget about IM Scamming and focus on their genitals. I guess it gets you traffic…Certain type of people (apparently your blog commenters) really like that stuff.

        Are you going to go on and on about Kern’s penis size next? Who Walker is banging? Good luck with that.

        1. @SD,

          Since you are obviously so hot in lust for the weak and wimpy Alison, (any women with a hint of womanly strength, you label slut–You Do Not Know Me), you are setting yourself up to be as big a bad guy as cheatin’, scumbag Dave Navarro (He Who Shall Be Defended).

          1. @SD, You call me Naomi, rather than reply intelligently?

            I don’t believe you’re a lawyer, or at least a decent one.

            This is a waste of time site now, all obsessed with salaciousness and slutty women rather than IM scammers.

            I can’t do it, but I hope somebody with some sense takes on the banner of exposing IM Scammers. Truly, it’s a needed service.

            1. @Neigh goes the horse AKA Naomi the Fat Bitch Dunford

              What I always love about all you scammers is how you are always glad someone is cleaning up internet marketing

              Message to FAT BITCH: we aren’t cleaning up IM…we are blowing it up…as in it’s over

              This ends in indictments…bank on it

              This will never end for anyone who sells IM or any other scam bullshit like coaching

              Run…RUN AND HIDE

            2. @Neigh goes the horse, I don’t know about if you’re Naomi, but now I wonder about if you’re “Neigh” name is standing for “Neigh? Oh, Me.”

  40. Right now Jeff Walker has close to 600 acolytes holed up in a Scottsdale Hotel, further instilling “valuable” content and “valuable” mindsets into the crowd of clueless hopefuls. Few, if any, have read this blog. Few, if any, understand the slippery slope they are on.

    The Syndicate still lives and in many regards… still thriving. Naomi Dunford is barely a tentacle of the beast, and her business is -thankfully- hurting because of her amateurishness.


    We need more material on the central beast: Walker, Kern, Jenkins, Pagan, Deiss, Burchard, Belcher, Kennedy, Glazer, Malinchak, Etc. and their A- and B Teamer Hordes.

    So I am asking Salty and EVERYONE who reads this to PLEASE do what you can to uncover more material for salty to expose these fraudsters before they start re-grouping -or worse- fraud off into the night.

    More people need to be aware of their crimes. Yes, CRIMES. Not moral greyness…but crimes. For example, I know Infusionsoft has done a lot to court Frank Kern and the syndicate to assure him that they are the right platform… and they could be a great platform for marketing if someone is a good marketer and knows what they are doing. But Frank Kern doesn’t know anything except manipulation. AN Sadly, I am fairly certain whoever is working directly with him and his gang and getting them to promote their platform to their “lists” is not aware of this blog OR has not read it enough to get a clear picture of just how villainous they guys are.

    If they did, they would, even despite the revenue loss, cut ties with this crowd to save their own necks… especially if/when it comes to court… “Hey Infusionsoft… how’s it gonna look when you are subpoenaed and dragged into court because you are not only the email marketing, sales, and payment platform the majority of these guys use, but you actively promoted them and begged them to promote you too? … How’s that gonna look on your PR sheet? I can see the headline now: Infusionsoft Marketing Automation or Fraud and Manipulation Automation?”

    Just saying… Salty is not alone in this battle to protect the masses who have been taken in by the devil in a pinstripe suit. We all need to step up more.

    1. @The Syndicate Still Lives :(,

      Exactly, all this focus on whiny, gossipy, sex and marriage BS diverts attention from the real villains. There aren’t many who stand up to the the likes of Walker and the syndicate and expose them for what they are.

      I wish SD would get back to business instead of obsessing over small potatoes and soap opera drama.

      1. @Me, Not an IM Syndicate Scammer,

        I see your point, but one cannot discount the serious “wins” that Salty has made here… It’s just time to take that momentum and keep moving forward. BUT it’s not enough to just say something, we all need to do what we can to help share anything we have with Salty to help him in this cause. It is not good that Droids should be alone.

        1. @The Syndicate Still Lives :(,

          I support SD fully in his IM Scammer activities, but as a single mother and a divorced woman who is NOT a victim, I cannot support him in this Navarro dreck.

          Jeff Walker and the like are out there scamming folks and ruining bank accounts, hopes and dreams, if not lives. Bring ’em down like the roaches they are!

          There are many sites to moan about some cheatin’ men who abandoned you and the kids, a rather common dilemma. SD seems to be a poor fit for that, and rather ineffective to boot. Her peers would be telling her to get real and grow a freakin’ backbone.

          1. @Me, Not a Victim,

            You’re obviously just a wanker, so it would be pretty pointless to dignify the shit you’ve just written with any form of meaningful response.

            1. @Alley.Cat, You’re obviously stupid. A wanker is a masturbator. What does that have to do with anything?

              Do you not have anything to do but wank off be frothed up over endless diatribes about low-level IMers fornicating and adultifyin’?

              I’m just saying I don’t give a damn. I’d rather read about Ashton and his blonde because they sure do look better than that plump Navarro dude, although he may float your boat.

              I come here to find about IM Scammers and Scamming.

      2. @Me, Not an IM Syndicate Scammer,

        I disagree with you. The posts about the low-level IM’ers have hit home to me a lot more than the ones about the BIG scammers. I used to aspire to be like some of these B-list people. I never wanted to get “big”, just wanted to have my own little business to support myself. So I appreciate learning what is going on with these people behind the scenes.

        The big scammers might be “worse”, but they don’t really interest me because I never fell for their stuff like I did for the little ones.

        1. @Pat, Well, talk about their scams then and the harm they are doing to people financially. What do their personal soap operas have to do with it, other than titillation?

          It all seems a bit misogynistic to me. If SD likes weak, whiny women, he should support them financially. Why attack for them ad nauseaum? It does them no good.

          Alison won’t get her husband back until HE calls and begs her to come back and she shouldn’t. Otherwise, he won’t respect her or the marriage. He needs to suffer the consequences of his actions and all this dreck just deflects the attention from those consequences and justifies his absence to himself. She cannot get other people to make him do anything.

          A real man will respect a strong women who puts her kids first. A dweeb at least will fear her. Both will beg to come back and it would be up to her to decide if it’s worth it.

          He abandoned her. He hurt her kids. He hurt her.

          He should never be begged to return by anybody. There are consequences to this behavior and some should be permanent.

          She’d be way better served by a good divorce lawyer than all this endless whining and begging.

          1. @Me, not Alison,

            Talking about their scams is not enough. The talk about their “personal soap operas”, as you put it, is important because it illustrates the harm that the scams are doing to people’s personal lives.

            You might think this is an isolated incident, but in fact there are far too many people who quit their jobs on the strength of the promises made by the IM scammers. They think they can quit their jobs and have more time to spend with their families, but then the opposite happens and they just end up spending more and more time on their “internet business” until it completely changes their outlook on life.

            It is so easy to get sucked in to this “dream” of the internet lifestyle. Then families get ruined.

            If a person just reads the sites that tell of the “IM dream”, then they are liable to quit their jobs. But if they come here and read about how people’s lives are being ruined, and how people who seem to have it all together and are “making it”, are really living off family savings (instead of supporting their families) or cheating on taxes or whatever, it may make them think twice before quitting their job.

            It is the actual personal stories that have a great impact. Just talking about the scams themselves would not be as likely to change people’s minds.

            If you just hear about thousands or even millions of people being scammed, it does not have the same impact as one detailed personal example. With the personal example, people can think “Wow, this could happen to me”, or even “Wow, this happened to me too – I am not alone in being stupid – now how can I turn my life around?”

            1. @Pat, okay, I can buy a bit of that, I guess…I was also drawn into the IM dream factory–I didn’t actually spend money, too cheap for that, but I watched from the sidelines and hoped.

              Soon, I found this site which exposed the IMers for what they really were. This was the site that truly pulled the wool from my eyes.

              I have no doubt that the likes of those such as Kern have cheated on their wives, maybe even they even put on orgies and sex parties at those conferences. Whatever. People who lie and scam usually conduct their personal lives with similar immorality.

              But, it doesn’t titillate me. I don’t want to hear about the sex parties, the adultery, the moist, heaving femininities and big, manly manhoods.

              I don’t care about that as much as I do the scamming and ripping off of good people who are drawn to it, people like me, some people enough to quit their jobs.

              Leaving your family and cheating on your wife is a bigger deal from quitting your job. I don’t need to hear over and over about some sorry, cheatin’, doggish man being begged to come back home.

              I just don’t give a frick.

              I bet the other scammers are just as pleased as punch that because of this soap opera, they get some attention and heat off of them.

            2. @Me, sometimes a Dreamer,

              “I don’t need to hear over and over about some sorry, cheatin’, doggish man being begged to come back home.”

              No problem. Here’s another web site you can better relate to:


              Oh, and since you went out of your way to NOT reference any piggish, disgusting, wretched female internet scammers, we’ll continue to keep you up to date on that topic. Enjoy!

        2. @Pat,

          FWIW, I think that it is possible to have a small business that’s real, and legitimate. I also think it’s possible to have that business operate partially or exclusively online.

          I think when @SD says “you can’t make money online” what he means is something like: in order to make money, you’d have to have like an actual business plan and patience and hard work and maybe a bit of luck or at least the absence of bad luck. You can’t make money online with a South Park underpants gnomes business strategy [].

          I also think @SD puts it up there “you can’t make money online” and quotes it frequently as a goad to those that keep claiming that you can make money online just by doing vague whateverz and paying someone else a lot of money for “the secret”.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @The Syndicate Still Lives :(,

      Well if you think Salty isn’t doing enough about the people you mentioned why don’t you set up a blog and talk about it? Sounds like you’ve got lots to say.

      Have you informed that software company about what could happen to them if they team up with Kern and Co.? I’m sure they’d be very interested to hear what you have to say.

    3. @The Syndicate Still Lives :( ::

      You’re confused friend.

      This is all one story … all the same delusion … all the same manipulation … all the same disrespect for humanity.

      The fake robot comes to this story not via Anthony Navarro’s website :: but via Brian Clark’s disgusting promotion and affiliation with Kern and Walker and Reese oh my … which made me look closer at how the blogging about blogging bloggers operated.

      The Syndicate is just a tiny part of the sick machine.

      1. @SD,

        Copyblogger and the Third Tribe were my gateway into this whole thing.

        I had a friend that recommended I use Elance to find freelance writing work, since that was something I was interested in doing part time.

        That was back in 2007.

        And through that, I started following people like Brian Clark and Men with Pens.

        The scary thing about it is that I don’t THINK of myself as gullible, but I was really buying what these guys were selling–not the info products so much as the idea that these were accomplished, credible writers who had bucked the 9-5 and truly made it on their own terms.

        I also thought they had integrity.

        But soon I discovered over at that cesspool freelance site, Elance, how utterly despicable 99% of the “marketers” looking to hire writers were.

        Freelancers where being abused and ripped off left and right over there and the people running Elance didn’t lift a finger to help.

        Why? I wondered. More importantly, who was teaching these online marketers to behave in such a reprehensible manner.

        I started putting two and two together. These “D” teamers over at Elance were the end product of the immoral mindset at the top.

        Elance? They knew what was up. It’s all churn, churn, churn. Get your percentage on the transactions and work a new set of victims when the old ones finally catch on.

        Of course they weren’t going to side with the providers. If they did, the D level marketers doing all the hiring wouldn’t be able to get what they wanted–a bunch of naive, desperate eager-beaver freelancers to abuse at slave wages.

        The gurus victimize the B teamers, the B teamers victimize the C teamers … on it rolls … downhill … until the D teamers are victimizing a bunch of aspiring writers, graphic artists, and coders on Elance.

        I left that ghetto fast. I found just ONE good repeat client there who to this day throws me about 10k a year in business. And guess what? He has a real, off-line business that has nothing to do with IM or blogging about bloggers blogging.

        Funny how that works.

        1. @Mad Max, So glad you mentioned Elance, with its egregiously exploitative job “opportunities.” Over the years various folks have suggested that my partner and I register with Elance and/or similar freelance sites, but a cursory look at the listings in our areas of expertise, and the slave-wage “budgets” for those listings, made us turn away in disgust. I always suspected that the folks behind the worst of those listings were fourth-rate wannabes, perhaps skimping on creative services in order to leave more money for buying (or leasing) expensive toys that would make them look successful. There’s not much status in paying a graphic designer, ghostwriter, or coder decent wages, especially if the top gurus are coaching you to hire dirt-cheap labor from the Writers-R-Us services. The status is in the sports cars and beach houses you can feature in your crappy videos (even if the stuff is not really yours).

          But back to the original point of this thread: The tale of Dave, Alison and Naomi is indeed relevant because it provides an intimate and disturbing look at a phenomenon that, unfortunately, is not all that uncommon. And this kind of family-decimating, bank-account-plundering, and soul-destroying crap has been going on for a very long time (with MLM programs and the like), even before there was an Interweb.

        2. @Mad Max,

          This could be my story exactly – I lived the Elance lifestyle for a year all while believing my freelance writing was just my “day job” until I created my awesome, spaztastic website where I inspired people to change the world and sold products ending in 7. My mentors told me I just was scared to take the leap – I realize now that my BS detector was kicking in. It took me several years to rebuild a real freelance business independent of the unicorn world but it worked.

          A few years ago there was a product sold on the Warrior Forum about how to get work at home moms to write an article for $3 for you. It outlined email scripts, which were basically lessons in psychological manipulation.

          1. @LisaSimpson,

            Let me guess … the script started with, “It should be an easy job for someone who knows what there [sic] doing.”

            It ends with, “Do a great job on this and I have a lot more work available.”

            Sound familiar?

            They lying, cheating and stealing that goes on at Elance is unbelievable. I had one guy running a brick and mortar home health care business straight up STEAL my copy after complaing it didn’t meet his standards.

            (Yeah, try to square that circle.)

            And do you know what Elance did for me after I provided proof of his theft? Zero. Absolutely nothing.

            Neither did the home health care directory where the stolen copy was posted–at least not until I had the whole site shut down with a DMCA filing.

            All over a project that paid $135. Who has time for that crap?

            Fuck Elance. They’re as scammy as the scammers that use their service.

            1. @Mad Max,

              Elance is like a third-world slum street market except people are hustling cut-rate “intellectual property” instead of baskets.

              The Elance slogan should be:

              “Elance: We eliminate the middleman: your groceries!”

            2. @Mad Max, I have a feeling we’ve been in the same circles exactly.

              And to top it off – for some of these “writers” Elance is the “golden ticket” that pays better than Writer Access or rent a coder or whatever other scammy scummy site is out there.

  41. @Me, not an Idiot

    Unfortunately I can’t reply above the replies ran out.

    Here’s a definition for you (Urban Dictionary)

    While “to wank” means “to masturbate”, the term “wanker” is seldom if ever used in British slang to denote “one who wanks”. It is quite wrong to infer from somebody’s being a wanker that they in fact wank (and vice versa), but of course, fair to assume they do in any case. Herein lies the genius of the insult: if you call someone a wanker, it’s probably true, but only literally.

    I suppose it all originates from our repressed Victorian sexualities, from back when everybody thought they were the only ones to suffer the secret shame of being an actual wanker.

    Most children these days learn the word “wanker” long before they learn its literal meaning.

    You’re such a wanker.

  42. That last audio clip was heartbreaking to hear. I dunno man I believe in Karma and stuff but I hope it catches up with that sucubus Dunford pretty fucking quick.

    Still amazes me how sleep fuckers sleep at night knowing what they’ve done to families.

    1. @Niall, It’s funny how everything is the woman’s fault over here. You rant against the succubus Dunford–did she kidnap and rape Dave against his will?

      Not saying she isn’t a bad person too, but dang, how is it completely her fault that HIS family is destroyed?

      Don’t men have any control over how and when they have sex with a woman and decide to leave their wives and children and destroy their families?

      Or are they all just depressed? Or confused? Or some other excuse?

      If your or SD cheat and leave your families, it’s completely the woman’s fault, right?


      That’s how the fuckers sleep at night. I’m sure Dave is snoozing just fine.

      1. @Anon, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that she’s wholly to blame. But given the cult-like manipulation that went on, at least until the moment Dave decided to leave, yeah, she’s to blame. After that, he’s at fault for what he’s done. As ultimately, we are all at fault for our choices.

        I’m a woman, and I’ve seen no misogyny over here after months of reading. I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s all “the woman’s fault” – just that, in this case at least, the evidence overwhelmingly supports that this *particular* woman is to blame for the original manipulation.

        My 2c.

        1. @A Different Anon,

          Well, she does suck…but everybody *is* making excuses for him. The choice to destroy his family was his.

          Even if the women looked like a Victoria Secret super model, the choice still would have been his.

          It’s imbalanced. Sympathy for the wife is fine, but excuses for Dave’s part in this? Uh-uh.

          I do see a definite slant against women in general here, especially with the site owner…a minor example–he calls the other woman plump, but not the definitely plump man? He calls the other woman a slut, but are men who leave their wives and sleep with other women incapable of being sluts too–is this title only reserved for women?

          It’s sort of disgusting to watch. I think we women are so used to it, we take it for granted. I agree the other women needs to be blamed, but why exonerate the man for his part?

          1. @Anon,

            You’ve got to be kidding. Have you even read the hundreds of posts here about male scammers? Perhaps you should before you write nonsensical comments.

            It’s completely obvious…to anyone paying attention…that SD is not ‘slanted’ against women. Naomi Dunford deserves the same treatment as the men featured on this blog. She’s earned it.

            1. @what??, No I have not read any comments attacking the men for destroying families because some married woman decided to sleep with them. It’s all about how these men are cheating, lying, death-dealing scammers.

              Treat her like the men are treated, like Dave should be treated. He’s a IM scammer too in addition to being a fat, ugly slut.

              I’m not saying you’re going to easy on her, but Dave is getting a pass because he’s a man.

              And men can’t be plump, sausage-shaped sluts, I guess. They are depressed instead.

              1. @Neigh goes the horse ::

                It was confusing with you using 20 different names for your 20 different dispassionate and neutral comments … so I helped you out.

                It’s pretty hard to fathom how anyone could talk so much vile trash about Alison on this particular post … especially after having two months to echo Naomi’s silly “The Droid hates women” garbage on posts far less beautiful. Yesterday your comments were aggressively sexual on a post that is in large part about somebody else’s children. You pretend to be a fan of this site so passionate that you’d leave 20 “concerned” comments about my direction … yet you’ve never commented before. You heap fire on everyone but fat fat piggy grifter Naomi Dunford.

                It doesn’t leave much room for doubt does it?

                You are epic disgusting.

            2. @yet another anon,

              Your argument makes no sense. Those other men haven’t used sex to get their b-teamers to leave their families so of course you haven’t seen that accusation. People don’t make up accusations here. Why don’t you go back and actually read what’s been posted here about fanged vagina-faced Jeff Johnson for example because male scammers get the same treatment for what they do.

          2. @Neigh goes the horse,

            Seriously, you haven’t been reading this blog long enough. Go back and look at the Perry Belcher, Andy Jenkins, Dr Kilstein posts from a few years back. All Salty does is rail on them for being fat, ugly, disgusting, “dumpies” or “misshapen men” with “evil jowls” and man-boobs.

            Sex is rarely involved, but when it is Salty trashes the scammers for it (see the Kilstein posts) calling them “sick perverts.”

            Here, it’s been mostly commenters calling Naomi a “slut” or whatever. Salty has already said rumors of a sexual affair are questionable and irrelevant. Naomi has rightly drawn Salty’s scorn in this situation for her outright lying and twisting of the situation, her general disrespect and slandering of Alison and Anthony, and for instigating and fostering ill-will in someone else’s marriage (unless you think it’s totally cool for her to be telling him “your wife hates you”)

            Any regular reader of this blog will tell you that in fact, the opposite of what you accuse Salty of is true. Naomi is one of a tiny few (I think 2 in total) women that Salty has ever targeted. And the men have gotten it far worse (deservingly so).

            1. @ThisIsCrazy, I agree with your post 99.99%. The only thing I would add is that I don’t think either gender has gotten it “worse” than the other. All this talk about gender re: this web site is complete and total bullshit.

              I admit that I can a bit too militant in my feminist ideology and have absolutely believed I found “misogyny” where I later had to agree (after calm rational discussion) that none existed. I have NEVER ONCE thought that this site was sexist. I have never once felt that women were getting worse or better treatment than men.

              It is really starting to piss me off that these trolls keep coming onto this site and spewing this pseudo-feminist garbage. Gender is a NON-ISSUE here! From what I can see “Neigh goes the horse”s comments actually prove that point. Those comments were vile and disgusting. That series of comments are the most sexist thing that has ever appeared on this site.

      2. @Neigh It’s funny how you think it’s misogynistic to attack a woman who has abandoned several of her own children and encourages the married man she is involved with to abandon his- but totally fair and in keeping with the best principles of gender justice to refer to the abandoned wife struggling to feed her kids as “weak”, “whiney” and “wimpey” while the serial child-abandoner and decamper with married men is lauded as having “womanly strength”. This is not feminism- it’s what you accuse Salty of- misogyny- and in a particularly stomach-turning form.

        1. @Wanderlost, If you actually read my comments, I’m in no way lauding Naomi, the wonder bitch. And I definitely never said she had womanly strength. Any heifer who can’t get her own and goes for somebody else’s man is the lowest. It’s just SD weak faker who can’t take criticism misrepresenting the words.

          But who cares?

          I’m just amused at how the stupid allow Dave, the IM Scammer, cheating husband and family destroyer get a free pass.

          SD can’t take the merest criticism. I never commented before here because the commenters seem kinda dumb, not about discourse or intelligence, just about rah, rah SD!

          That is his thing and he has the right, but I don’t tend comment and engage the stupids on dumb sites, no matter how entertaining.

          This site has been entertaining, at least up until it finally pissed me off.

          Alison is an UBER wimp for saying she’d take her husband’s no-good rear back. She obviously can’t function without a piece of man to lean on.

  43. @ThisIsCrazy,

    Sorry, after reviewing my post I realized that my “talk of gender of is bullshit” statement might be taken as being directed at you. It’s not. I just wanted to say that you are right but I wanted to clarify that the men don’t get it worse here, I think Salty just follows the stories and the stories just HAPPEN to be about men. (which might have something to do with the sexism in the MMO industry).

    1. @whatthewhat,

      Very true. Point well taken. The fact that most of the stories are about men probably has more to do with IM being an “old boys network” than Salty “giving it to them worse.” I think that has even been hinted at here before.

      1. @ThisIsCrazy ::

        I wonder why there aren’t any ladies among the “RockStars” of Internet Marketing? It’s odd because there are LOTS of ladies buying these priced-4-kings info products about making it to the top … but they sure don’t seem to matriculate. If you look too hard :: for too long :: it might start to look like a bunch of 25 – 45 year old males exploiting a bunch of vulnerable 45 – 65 year old ladies. People’s Moms :: and Aunts :: and Sisters. People’s fucking families. Yeah but whatever right? Money is Money :: Yo!

        The Internet Marketing Syndicate is a dicks club. To get in :: you gots to have a dick {and be a dick}. It also helps if you’re white. Loads of women and minorities are a part of the sheeple herd … lining up in droves to be victimized … but only white men are allowed to succeed. It’s fun … like the dentistry of the 1890′s.

  44. So sad. Tears streaming. Indeed … “Nothing beats a Dad.”

    How can you abandon your kids?

    What is does Naomi Dunford represent that is so attractive … that Dave would leave your kid?

  45. ‘How To Be A Dad’ is not a sexy title for a product launch but would definitely be more valuable than ‘How to get more traffic’ or any of the other MMO titles.
    Good job Salty

    Stay strong Alison.
    Through your trials & adversity comes a message others would not have been able to hear had it not happened this way.

  46. I hope this story ends well… Dave going back to his family would be awesome news.

    It is obvious they care about him and love him no matter what has happened.

  47. Sorry if this is too off-topic, but it reminded me of similar shannanings with Steve Pavlina. Some time ago (a couple of years?) he brainwashed his wife into adopting a polyamorous life style. Some time after that, we eventually left her and the kids to pursue is BDSM interests with a younger slave. Some sad/entertaining factoids:

    – He tried to frame the Dom/submissive thing in a self-helpy way, and even wrote a few articles on how it is an opportunity for growth and whatnot

    – They had two houses. He kept the big one to himself and send his family to live on the small one, because it would be cheaper for them to maintain. What a guy!

    – The sad/disturbing thing is that his wife is so brainwashed that she claimed that all this was ok, while it was quite transparent that it was not

    The only thing that makes me not feel to bad for her is that she’s an internet “psychic”, so she kind of deserves it…

    1. @CultsAreFun, interesting comment. Very common among scammers is the fact that they are also vulnerable to being scammed themselves. Something about scamming, exploiting,cheating, and manipulating others opens you up & prone for something or someone else to do the same to you.

      Another common behavior among these scammers is addiction, namely spending addictions. Very few of these scammers are able to build a solid foundation with all the money they scam. Just as easy as it comes to them, it leaves their hands just as quick and they usually end up with more debt & worry at the end of the game than before.

      You reap what you sow.

      1. @422, C’mon man, you need to raise you vibrations and whatnot. Otherwise you’ll never be a lightworker like Stevie boy.

    2. @CultsAreFun,

      Steve “The Shoplifter” Pavlina who gives incredibly helpful tips like:

      “Here’s an extra travel tip: Do NOT eat the nachos made with 10 different kinds of beans in Banff an hour before driving to Calgary!”

      I see why people pay him huge sums of money, where else could you get such life-enhancing advice? Maybe a Beano commercial but they’re free.

      1. @Barbara,

        I have to admit I still read his stuff for the entertainment value.

        Speaking of travelling: the guy took a couple of trips to Canada and then one to Paris, and now he’s dishing out travelling tips like he’s f’ing Magellan.

        On Paris. he wrote that the city feels like a mix between NY and Las Vegas (!)

        1. @CultsAreFun,

          “On Paris. he wrote that the city feels like a mix between NY and Las Vegas”

          Now THAT’S funny. I’ve been to Paris. Let me guess, he spent most of his time in a Starbucks while he was there. (I imagine they have one Starbucks – somewhere on the outskirts of town.)

          Paris is nothing like either of those places, unless he only went there in his imagination.

    3. Yes, I remember when Steve Pervlina, the lean, mean content machine, was going on and on about polyamory, and then about Dom/sub, and so forth… but apparently he turned around and fell in love with his sex slave, which in my view was sort of an anticlimactic development, no pun intended.

      I hadn’t been to his site in a while but I’ll probably mosey on over there for some more comic relief. Thanks for the reminder.

      I did and do feel for Erin Pavlina, despite the psychic shtick. It wasn’t too difficult to read between the lines in her public statements about how the polyamory and then the separation and divorce were all perfectly okay. I’m no psychic, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that things were NOT okay, although both Pavlinas would probably say that I was just projecting my own hangups and limited mindset onto the situation.

      In the case of Alison and Dave, it’s apparently not projection, since Alison has been in communication with Salty and this story is told with her blessings. I hope the hard work Salty has done will knock some sense into Dave, but even if it doesn’t, I hope it saves other families from going through the same kind of hell that the Navarros have experienced.

      1. @Cosmic Connie, Erin’s story was very sad! I remember reading something about his attempt to try to get her to not eat French fries. Very controlling, mind-fing there. She was definitely not okay with it when you read between the lines.

      2. @Cosmic Connie,

        Yeah, the fall in love part was anticlimatic. But I still believe it’s just a bump in the road on his way to starting a cult. Case in point, check out his new logo!

        Alison’s story is quite different, and I fell for her. The entire thing is disgusting.

      3. @Cosmic Connie,

        Yeah, the fall in love part was anticlimatic. But I still believe it’s just a bump in the road on his way to starting a cult. Case in point, check out his new logo!

        Alison’s story is quite different, and I fell for her. The entire thing is disgusting.

      1. @SD, so sensitive robot, hah, we have something in common…I can’t STAND Steve Pavlina, that no-good cheating ASS. Yeah, Dave Navarro is of his ilk.

        I support Erin, who has much more fortitude that that Alison joke, but waste no time bashing Steve’s multitude of whorish bitches. He was the one who abandoned his family, not his whores, who were only being true to their whorish natures.

        Silly robot. Hope I didn’t hurt your tender robot feelings too much. All the effort you made. I know you track IPs and you know I’m not Naomi or any other bitch, so you need to leave that crutch alone.

        1. @Neigh goes the horse,

          Of course you’re Naomi, you lying sack of shit. You have so many tells and dead giveaways in your comments it’s easy to identify you.

          Your unrelenting and unwarranted viciousness towards Alison is one of your tells as is the fact that besides the Droid you are one of the few people commenting that consistently spells her name correctly. Most people here spell her name “Allison” which as you well know is incorrect. But you’d never make that mistake, would you? Since you are consumed with jealousy of her and she’s never far from your thoughts it’s natural you’d be familiar with her name.

          And pretending you didn’t know “who that Naomi girl is” was absolutely priceless. You are transparent, Dunford. Now why don’t you go figure out how to sell to Aunt Vera or Grandpa Joe or whatever bullshit you’re currently trying to “market”. The adults are having a conversation here and you’ve got nothing to add. (Oh, and by the way, Alison is worth over 1,000 of you…better make it 10,000.)

          1. @Barbara, At least you admit, most people here, obviously including you, are stupid and can’t spell worth a damn.

            If you are so interested in who I am, ask your hero SD about my IP, dumbass. He knows very well I’m not Naomi because of my location–but yeah, he might weakly hide behind that because he has nothing intelligent to say about how he panders to cheatin’ Dave.

            I’m not vicious toward Alison, I think she’s whiny. Obviously she and Dave were a good match. Maybe he’ll come back to her and cheat on her some more with somebody else.

            Go ahead and run to change my name now, SD

            1. @Neigh goes the horse,

              When I was 11 and my sister was 15, she had this horrible little moped. It barely held one person, but for some reason she always thought it was a great idea to toss me on the back and take me on sandy “shortcuts” to the convenience store so we could load up on candy.

              On two separate occasions – because the first time obviously wasn’t enough of a clue for me – my weight unbalanced the moped as we were going through sand and we tipped. On both occasions, I managed to get pretty severe burns on my legs from contact with the moped engine.

              It hurt like hell. I cried like a baby at first, but my sister said “Don’t go in the house like that, you’re going to get me in trouble.” So I pretended like the burns weren’t such a big deal when my mom hemmed and hawed over me. She’d slather the burns with aloe and wrap gauze around my legs, and it would feel fine…

              …right up until time to change the gauze. You seem intelligent, all things considered, so I’m sure you know that when burns heal, the skin tends to graft onto whatever is around it to speed the process. As these burns healed, the skin grafted to the gauze, and every time the dressing was peeled away, it took some of the healing skin with it and opened the burn up. Sometimes, in the very beginning, I’d bleed quite a bit. Closer to the end, when the scabs were healing into new skin, I didn’t bleed as much.

              When I spoke to Jason last week, he peeled back some metaphorical gauze that I wasn’t expecting to have stripped away. So yes, perhaps I do come across as “whiny” and “weak” in the snippets of interview he posted here. There’s probably a reason for that. I was talking about the father of my children and the best friend I’d ever had – my best friend for close to two decades.

              But whoever you are, you have judged me harshly by a set of standards you’ve set out for me that I can’t possibly meet. You want me to react the way you do to a situation that you feel is familiar for you, but I can assure you is not. I’m a different person, with a different set of standards and morals, and no doubt – like many others – you expect me to be angry and bitter. I’m not angry, and I’m not bitter. I’m sorry if that disappoints you.

              You made a comment to the effect that I behave as though I need a man in my life, that I can’t function without one. Let me assure you that that is entirely untrue. The truth is, I have three young men in my life already, and their happiness is paramount for me. I’m doing the best I can by them, and I’m not sitting here waiting on a knight in shining armor.

              Quite frankly, I’m a great mom, and your opinion and snap judgments won’t change that.

              I wish you well in life, no matter what you wish towards me. God bless.

            2. @Neigh goes the horse,

              Sorry, but these days a picture is not proof that something happened.
              Just like an IP address is not proof of your location.

        2. @Neigh goes the horse,

          For all of your crying earlier about misogyny? You’re either an idiot or an asshole or both.

          Or to put it more kindly- Misogyny: I do not think it means what you think it means.

          “True to their whorish nature.” Amazing how you can tell someone’s ideology by their terminology.

          1. @Silver Agave, Women who have sex with men they know are married are whores. I have no problem with calling it that.

            Dogging the woman for the man’s abandoning HIS family, while giving him a free pass, yep, misogyny.

            Abandoned and betrayed wife begs for him back, while moaning for everybody else to help her get him (the cheater) back, yep, weak.

            SD piling it on everybody but said cheatin’ man, yep, misogyny.

        1. @Bud Hennekes, Notably absent from that rogues’ gallery: James Arthur Ray, one of the founding members of TLC, who apparently got kicked out after that sweat lodge incident. On numerous occasions Pervlina has written proudly about his membership in this “exclusive” organization. I see his name is finally listed on the roster (for a long time it wasn’t), as is the name of his buddy Joe Vitale. Joe and Steve were all over each other with the mutual praise back in the summer of 2009, during the TLC semi-annual meeting in Bermuda.

          Stevie, overcome with the honor of being the member of such an elite group, wrote in a blog post:

          “TLC isn’t open to the public; you can only join by being sponsored by an existing member. I became a TLC member earlier this year, and this is my first retreat with them.

          “The purpose of TLC is basically for teachers/leaders in the personal growth field to hang out together, share their best ideas, have fun, and encourage the heck out of each other. You could call it a lightworker networking group.

          “If you’ve seen the movie The Secret, it was filmed at a previous TLC retreat in Aspen, so many of the teachers from that film are here for the Bermuda retreat as well. The Secret was an independent project though, not part of TLC itself. I think The Secret was filmed at TLC because it was a convenient way to gather all those teachers in the same place for filming.

          “Since this is an invite-only gathering, not a public event, it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to blog about all the details. Consequently, I’m intentionally being a bit vague…”

          Ooo, seekrits! Are you jealous yet? Some apparently were. On the Pavlina forum thread linked to in the post, one reader expressed envy of Pervlina’s membership in the TLC. “I’m feeling very blue about my life situation,” wrote the reader. Steve assured him:

          “…The reason I’m able to enjoy this kind of experience is that I’m a vibrational match for it. I don’t see the people I’m hanging out with this week as separate from me. They aren’t idols or celebrities or gurus in my eyes. We’re all equally valid and worthy expressions of spirit. We’re all one. You’re just as worthy too, but perhaps you’ve forgotten that simple truth.

          “Everyone here is very human. They all have their faults and foibles. But they accept themselves as worthy anyway. I think that’s part of what draws so many people to follow their work…”

          Those of you who have thrown up in your mouths or on your keyboards may be excused.

  48. Where are real actual business people that can give good advice? I keep thinking I find them – then they feature Brian Clark on their blogs. Chris Brogan writes for OPEN forum, Charlie Gilkey is on the blog roll. It seems like these creeps are everywhere. How do you take in the good advice without falling prey to the B.S? What are small businesses supposed to do?

    1. @LisaSimpson, the ones would could give advice are all busy running their real businesses.

      Meet them in person? Networking events? Friend of a friend? I dunno.

      Learn by doing…

      1. @Slowly Waking, Good point. I’ve been building a real business. Networking events a probably a good idea. it would just be nice to find a sounding board, good source of information, etc, when one runs into questions and concerns.

    2. @LisaSimpson,
      I’m repeating myself (sorry), but I’ve had really good luck with SCORE, the service corps of retired executives, which can be contacted through your local small business administration office.

      They are unpaid, and it doesn’t cost anything, and most of the advice I’ve gotten there has been very useful to me. The people at SCORE have also gone out of their way to find people who could answer my questions, when they themselves couldn’t.

      You would probably be surprised by the number of successful people who are willing to give you a half hour to an hour of their time. There are a lot of people out there who aren’t greedy, and are very generous, AND are very successful by any measure. Have a list of specific questions and ask for an informational interview from one of them.

    3. @LisaSimpson,

      These people are just getting off being so-called shocking, angry, and mean here. Besides, they aren’t very bright.

      As far as IMers, just look and listen to what they offer, take what you like and leave the res–BUT above all, *never* give them any money. Ever.

      Some Internet businesses are obviously making money but the scammers make money off selling “secret” knowledge to you. No business knowledge is secret.

      There are plenty of free resources out there that will tell you what you need to know.

      1. @Neigh goes the horse, I don’t want anything to do with IMers. I run a real business where real services are exchanged for money. Not infoproducts, not courses, not teleclasses.

      2. @Neigh goes the horse,

        It’s true that as long as you give them no money, you can’t truly be said to be conned by them.

        But I think what can happen over time, even if you never give them a dime, is that by listening to them all the time, you get somewhat indoctrinated into their messed up value system. Before you know it, you’ll be speaking the language of Joint Ventures, Take Action Now! and all the rest.

        At that point, you could be just One Big Negative Life Event away from jumping into the shark water. Because that’s what happens when life gets horrible–we quit thinking rationally for a little while, and then for a little while we are far more vulnerable to manipulation than normal. IMHO, it’s a bad gig.

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Wyrd, exactly! Being exposed to the free stuff gives you just as many problems as spending money on the paid programs. you begin to believe that your life is just one problog away from being perfect.

          It disgusts me that this “schmooze your way to happiness – we’re all friends – joint venture” bs has become business as usual in some circles.

          They are only bestselling products and programs because their friends and acolytes are promoting them on their blogs. They claim that things sell because people want them and use them. Not true! Things sell because people believe that if they can unlock the code they too can work in the unicorn land. When your RSS reader and inbox of full of these people, you begin to think of it as a reality that can be reached. It’s not. Dave and Naomi’s story proves it. That’s why this story is so important. The whole psychological mind-f of the third tribe (which they inherited from the syndicate) destroyed this family and probably countless of others.

          I’ve been in these forums. People hype themselves up in order to get “the mindset” that it takes to “make it big.” The mindset is the first step – and that mindset teaches that it’s okay to push your friends, family, health et al aside to create a problog. It’s okay to create a business like poor Linda on the other post that basically does nothing. It’s okay to quit your perfectly good job in order to create fairy castles. And if you’re not succeeding at it, you’re not cool enough, not believing enough, not worthy enough to make it.

          I bet when you peel back the layers of virtually all of this third tribe crowd you’ll see people on the edge of poverty putting on shiny, happy, hipster faces online claiming they are making money and hoping no one will find out that they aren’t.

          Do I think all of these folks are evil? No – I think they get caught up in it, do a few JVs, do guestblogging, realize they can make money easily, lose their souls and then don’t know what to do. They can’t come clean because the entire web thinks they are the king or queen of unicorn land. They have to keep going. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

    4. @LisaSimpson, Try your local chamber, S.C.O.R.E., the Rotary, etc. Lots of connection points in your own back yard. Those are going to more likely be real world people as opposed to smoke and mirrors, which is a plus.

  49. I don’t want to add to your pain. I don’t know you.

    I had a very bad reaction to how Dave was regarded here in light of what he did. I despise cheatin’ men who abandon their families because I had one too.

    Your man might come sniveling back. He probably will because of the poor quality of woman he is with now. Forgiveness is divine, I know, but hold him to consequences because if he did it once, know he is likely to do it again.

    Nobody forced him leave his family. There are no excuses.

    I forgave the man I once thought was my best friend twice. Finally, I cut my losses and now I have a much better man and father for my children in my life because I finally did. I have a man who has too much character and love to hurt me and abandon his family the way my first husband did. I am happy now because I finally had enough and stood up for myself and my kids.

    There are good men out there. Good men do not abandon and hurt their women and children–no matter what.

    I know that pain…even after all the years, it still stings enough to make me furious when I see the bastards excused and endless excuses made for them. That other woman didn’t marry you…he did. This is my personal scab.

    This all is just my opinion, because I’m not you and I don’t know you. So, don’t take what I say personally.


    1. @Neigh goes the horse ::

      You are either …

      a) Naomi
      b) the worst person in the world

      Either way … you should go and think about how repugnant you are.

    2. @From the Renamed One to Alison,

      This is the best comment you’ve left and I wish it had been the first.

      No one is giving Dave a pass. There are consequences to every action, and I think he’s probably learning this every day.

      We all have choices in life, and he’s made some that have caused terrible damage – to me and our children. It’s up to him where he goes from there; if he wants a relationship with the kids, it’s up to him to build the bridges. I’ve tried to help him in that respect, and now he’s cut off communication (real, honest communication) about that with me.

      I don’t excuse what he’s done – he made the choice to leave. I hope that you’ll read through this whole saga very carefully and see what SD is really talking about. It’s not just one story of one man falling for the charms of one woman; it’s much deeper than that. It goes to the core of what the “IM gurus” teach: that everything is disposable, that people are ultimately replaceable depending on your bottom line, that nothing should stand in the way of success.

      My husband fell for that, hook, line, and sinker. He was spoon-fed it by one person in particular and came to admire her so much he left his family to pursue – well, whatever it is he has with her.

      It was difficult for me to talk to Jason knowing that so much of my story would end up here. I didn’t do it for any other reason, however, than because I hoped it might help even one person wake up from the grass-is-greener delusion. If even one person is helped, and all I get are hateful comments? I’m ok with that.

      I hope you can look at me differently now. Your comments did initially hurt, but I understand that all you have of me is this brief picture SD posted. It’s a snapshot of where I was on one particular day, during one particular conversation; and I even told Jason when he asked, “Would you take Dave back?” that on that particular day, I couldn’t rule it out – but if he called me back the next day, my answer might be different. ;)

      Healing is a process. I am happy for you that you ended up with a loving relationship. I’m not done healing, and maybe one day I’ll have that too. But I don’t feel that I need a relationship with a different man, or even with Dave again, to feel whole. I’m getting there, on my own, through loving my kids with all I have.

      In the end, all any of us can do is our best on any given day. Today, I happen to be struggling with a stomach flu, I have laundry piled up to my chin waiting to be put away, and I have a sink full of dishes. But you know, it was a pretty good day in every other respect. :)

      Regardless of anything else you’ve said here, one of the highlights of my day was talking to you and getting a glimpse of the person behind the comments that seemed so vicious at first glance. I’m glad you’re not “out to get me”. You have a unique perspective on my situation and I appreciate you taking time to wish me well after all of that.

      Take care,

      1. @Alison, I appreciate your giving me a better glimpse at who you are–and overlooking my initial anger. I wrote without thinking of your reaction if you read it. I apologize.

        I think you’ll be all right and get through this hard time. But I don’t think this silly, aggressive and juvenile Droid style matches your persona, but that’s also just my opinion.

        SD, talk about childishness! You know you can tell from my IP I’m not Naomi. Why are you still harping on that?

        Junior high insults and name calling really do very little to me other than amuse me. I also find it amusing I might be the worst person in your Droid world. I don’t Internet Market or sell a thing.

        1. @Neigh goes the horse ::

          Your IP is meaningless … and I haven’t a clue where Naomi is anywayz.

          Those were some of the most horrible :: stupid :: ill timed :: hateful :: fucking ridiculous comments ever left here.

          It doesn’t matter if you are Naomi or not … you are clearly awful. The special kind of vile you’ve just exhibited doesn’t wash off … so please don’t stand near me where I can smell it.

        2. @Neigh goes the horse

          “But I don’t think this silly, aggressive and juvenile Droid style matches your persona, but that’s also just my opinion.”

          It’s not just your opinion.

          The difference in class exhibited between Alison’s reply and SD’s says it all.

          1. @Anonymous Bastard, I think that it says a lot about Alison that she was willing to put her story on this blog – especially considering it’s reputation. She knows the darkside of the third tribe IM lifestyle. She wanted to get the word out. What other site out there is actively exposing this? There isn’t another alternative.

            No matter how her story might be packaged – her story is important and it deserves to be heard.

          2. @Anonymous Bastard, Sure, Alison is a class act. But I’d say Salty is fighting fire with fire. More power to him. “Neigh goes the Horse”, or whatever is quite foul. There’s room for both the Salty and Alison approaches and sadly there will still be work that needs doing.

      2. @Alison,

        I was really touched listening to you. Your lack of resentment and general manner reminded me of someone I love very dearly, and made me realize how rare that kind of love (or acceptance? or commitment?) is. Who knows where it comes from or why, it’s just there sometimes and it’s so easy to take it for granted.

        Thanks for having the guts to talk to Droid about it all. It’s easy for people to (deliberately) not see what this site is about. It certainly brings them out of the woodwork. If Droid’s methods really do reflect something in your character, that would also be something to be proud of!

        1. @Yakaru,

          Thank you, I appreciate your kind comments. What the Droid does is important and he’s far more understanding than I think he’s given credit for.

      3. @Alison,

        I really have no business following your story. I have nothing to do with the IM world or any scamming industry. I followed your story as I was waiting for SDs upcoming James Ray blogs.

        As I read your story, it felt voyeuristic to myself, and yet I was intrigued. Voyeuristic, because this is the type of information that people entrust to me in professional confidence.

        When I read this particular blog, I initially thought, gee, SD is a compassionate sweetheart, and Alison sounds like a kind and thoughtful “doormat”. I felt sorry for you.

        And then I read your posts above. Brilliant. It does you far more justice than Salty’s blog. It reveals not only an accepting human being, but a human being with strength, integrity and a stable character; a woman on a healing journey of exploration, knowing that her children will always be the first priorities in her life. I no longer felt sorry for you. Pity turned to admiration.

        I was very impressed, and I’m glad you wrote. When we hear things directly “from the horse’s mouth” and not snippets of what someone wants to portray in his blog, it rings with greater honesty, clarity and maturity. (Even if it lacks the hilarious snark).

        I wish you well, and wish you all of those things you want for yourself and for your children.

        1. @KG, Thank you so much for your kind comment. I’m terrible at snark, so I’ll leave that to the Droid, but my comments here were all “me”. I’m glad to hear I came across clearly and maturely. :)

          I think this blog has an important message and I don’t envy the Droid the negative feedback I’m sure he faces from all sides. It’s been difficult enough for me just to read the handful of questionable-motive comments on this post; I can’t imagine doing this every day – for what reward? All he gets for what he does is the knowledge that someone out there may avoid a terrible future or being manipulated by one of the scammers he exposes.

          I admire what he does – and the obvious strength he must have to do this for what many would consider to be very little gain – and while I certainly wish I had never had to run across this site, I’m glad I had the opportunity to speak to him. (He really is a very nice person!)

  50. Interesting to see her (or is it Dave writing now, sounds more like his voice, but who knows) post from yesterday:

    If you need ten grand by Friday or they take the house, now is not the time to start getting precious about what your peers might think of your marketing tactics. Your fellow fine art grads can call you a sell-out until they’re blue in the face. You have a house to save.

    If you want ten grand by the 15th, but you could live with $4500, and you just had a big promotion and your list is getting really burnt out, today is not the day for a fire sale. I don’t care how much money your Facebook buddy made with her Pay What You Can, don’t do it. Privately offer upgrades to some existing clients and customers, and have a gentle, quiet plan B for if they don’t buy.

    If more money would be nice but you’re planning a huge launch in the fall, lay low and build trust. Send a few low key emails offering something you never intend for anyone to actually buy so your people are gently reminded that you are running a commercial enterprise and they won’t balk when you sell something later. No money gets made, but that wasn’t the point.”

    I find her first point the most interesting. Think she’s asked her ‘peers’ what they think about her marketing tactics lately? Think she has a house to save?

    I especially like the call out about “Pay What You Can.”

    The fact that either of them is still posting this crap is sickening. Even more sickening is the group of people who are obviously still supporting them.

    1. @susie,

      Sounds like Dave trying to sound like Naomi. His unicorn is dead, so now he’s riding tandem with Naomi.

  51. dunford and navarro are not even in the B team.

    you dont see them winning many affiliate contests by the A team.

    so why not go hit on the top (A team): kern, deiss, walker, etc.

    i think this site talks too much of dunford bitch lately, it is no longer fun.

    1. @Dimitri, Here’s exactly why this is so important. Dunford and the Third Tribe tried to position themselves as “alternative” to the Kern’s of the world – but they are doing the same damn thing. Most logical people would not follow Deis or Walker or any of those mooks unless they were wallowing in Warrior Forum B.S.

      The Third Tribe has infiltrated real small business resources. They are everywhere. They’ve got to be exposed.

    2. @Dimitri ::

      This site is fun? I had no idea.

      I notice that @Alison commented a few hours before you did … it didn’t sound like she was having fun either.

      Maybe this ain’t a site abouts fun … but that’s only a guess.

    3. @Dimitri, It’s all about how you look at things. Instead of looking at the Dunford bitch as half empty, look at her as half full of it.

  52. It took a few days for my brain to work through the cognitive dissonance this post created, but now I can finally say thankyou, Alison, for telling your story here.

    I know a couple Daves. They’re hardcore MMO/MLM believers but they’re penniless, and their families aren’t helping them financially. My Daves have stories to explain this, stories I believed.

    Hearing Alison’s calm, reasonable recollection of the events the spider sensationalized made me realize my Daves are lying. They might not even mean to lie; they’ve come to believe the lies their Naomis have fed them.

    If you’re reading this and you feel some camaraderie with Dave, reach out to your family. They love you.

    If you’re reading this and you see yourself in Alison or Anthony or Christine, reach out to your Dave. He needs you.

  53. I wondered what was happening when I stopped getting Dave’s e-newsletters. I used to enjoy reading those; they had warmth, they had humour. A little light relief to my Monday mornings.

    Then not so long ago *goes to rummage in emails* I got this from him, and was rather confused.

    Coming over here has explained it all.

    The email I received on 2nd September 2011:

    “Hello, friends.

    I’ve made the decision to close the curtains on The Launch Coach due to personal reasons. It’s time to take a break from the internet for a while.

    But I wanted to do something special for you before I go, as a way to express my heartfelt thanks for the years of support and as a way to get my training in the hands of as many people as I can before this site is closed.

    At this time, you can have some (or all) of my workshops for whatever you’re in the spirit to pay.

    For the next week or so, all my workshops are available on a donation basis.Pay nothing if you want. Pay something if you’re moved to do so. It’s all good. I just want you to get this training.

    The downloads will still be accessible even after the rest of the website and the workshop sales pages are be taken down. So rest assured that even when The Launch Coach closes its doors, you’ll still have access to the content you pick up today.

    To all the wonderful people who have helped me build a brand that helped businesses around the world, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    Thanks for everything – it’s been one hell of a ride.

    Always yours,

    Dave Navarro”

    I felt sad when I read this email as it didn’t sound right. Now we all know that there was a puppet pulling the strings behind the scenes.

    I can’t begin to imagine how Alison or her children are feeling. To have your husband leave you is one terrible thing, but to have your husband completely change before your eyes and become a stranger…I just can’t comprehend how devastating that must be.

  54. This just in from Dave, I felt so so sad reading it…


    Over the past few months I’ve seen more than a few launches (by some pretty big names) that left me sick to my stomach.

    I know they’re making you sick to your stomach too, because I’m hearing about it.

    You’re hearing about all the money they’re making and you may be tempted to think that you have to model those tactics or you won’t succeed.


    You do not have to do it that way.

    You don’t have to burn your list, your credibility or your audience loyalty.

    I have things to say. Let’s begin.


    I want to talk to you about “list burn.”

    You may not have heard this term before, but you’ve definitely felt it.

    “List burn” happens when your subscribers get burned out from too much of the wrong kinds of promotion.

    Not promotion. The WRONG KINDS of promotion. Promotion without respect.

    ==> Let’s talk about respect for a minute. <==

    You know when someone's respecting you in an email – you can feel it.

    They treat you like an adult.

    They treat you like someone intelligent.

    They treat you like someone who is capable of making rational decisions.

    We like people who treat us with respect.

    We stay on their lists.

    We open their emails.

    And if YOU treat people with respect, they will stay on YOUR list and open YOUR emails.

    But RESPECT means respecting their intelligence.

    It does not mean doing what I saw two weeks ago in an email from Jeff Walker:

    P.S. Carnage alert! This is LIVE streaming video,
    and I'm going to be taking live questions and
    playing without a net… so there's no telling
    what's going to happen…

    Now, then. Just let that sit with you a little bit.

    How does that language make you feel?

    Like you're watching an infomercial? Like you're at a carnival? Like Crazy Eddie is telling you about the excitement at the next Toyota-thon?


    "without a net"?


    Jeff's been teaching product launch strategies for what, a decade now? And taking live questions on the topic of product launch strategies is "playing without a net"?

    I'm not saying anything about Jeff Walker personally here. I do not know the man, and I have learned a lot from him. I paid full price for his product, and it was worth every penny. If he came out with a new product, I'd buy it.

    But watching this last launch of his, I realized that I CANNOT EVEN COME CLOSE to recommending that YOU model his launch tactics for your launch-time emails.

    His audience and your audience are very, very different people.

    If you copy the tactics that he's using in your launch, you WILL burn your list.

    Your subscribers are not the same as his subscribers.

    Yours need more care, or you'll burn them.

    THIS IS CRITICAL. Here's why.


    There are two types of subscribers:

    – people who got on a list because they liked what they saw, and
    – random people funneled in through affiliates.

    Your list is the first type.

    People who have loyalty to YOU. These are people who trickled in over time.

    Jeff's list is the second type.

    These are random people joining his list because they were funneled in through affiliates.

    Frank the Big Affiliate sent them, and they join because Frank told them to. They have no loyalty to Jeff. The majority of people who get on a list that way will leave during or immediately after a launch.

    So, what's the most profitable thing for a marketer to do with all these new people who will be on their list for a very, very short time?

    SELL THE HELL OUT OF THEM. Use every trick in the book.

    Make it loud. Crank up the hype, the scarcity, the flashing red arrows … it becomes a circus.

    Some may even call it … "carnage."


    Again, I'm not passing judgment on Jeff. I have nothing against him personally, and his business model is his business model. (And he did send me a very nice gift basket last Christmas. Thanks, Jeff.)

    But this last launch of his was geared towards the second type of subscriber, at least on the email side.

    This is a shame, because his pre-launch video content has historically been good. Classic example of education-based launch content that is very much worth modeling.


    But if you're reading this, chances are very high that you're building a list based on the first type of subscriber. The type that has real, non-affiliate based loyalty to you.

    You want to keep that loyalty.

    You don't want to burn them.

    You want to make sure you use language and sales tactics that respect them.

    Their respect is your #1 asset when it comes to conversion.

    Because they're not just random people Frank the Affiliate sent over.

    They're subscribers you've EARNED.

    And they deserve respect.

    Which means you can't just copy-and-paste other people's promotional tactics and assume there won't be any negative side effects.

    And that's the lesson.

    Pick and choose what tactics you model from others.

    Even from me.

    You've worked too hard to just plug in a formula and see what happens.

    Think on that today.


    I'm going to send you a few more emails over the next few days.

    I'm going to tell you what not to do, and I'm going to give you some ideas for what to do INSTEAD.

    They'll protect you from list burn and the loss of respect you'll inflict on yourself if you follow the tactics that some of the other marketers are using these days.

    So keep your eye out.


    You've been hammered with Black Friday sales emails, and I didn't want to join in that fray.

    But I do want to let you know that I'm (for the first time) dropping the price of "How To Launch The **** Out Of Your Ebook" 50% over the course of this email series.

    I've never discounted this product before. It sells every day of the year anyway, so I'm not really in a rush to cut the price.

    But with all the launch carnage going on out there, I wanted to make sure you had the chance to read about how to launch your smaller products NICELY.

    So "How to Launch" is 50% off, for about a week. Then it's back to a hundred bucks.

    If you want it, it's here:

    If not, that's fine. Just keep reading the next few emails I send and learn how to avoid ruining your professional reputation.

    You see what I did there?

    I didn't hit you over the head with the discount and the scarcity and the… carnage.

    That's called RESPECT.

    And I want that a hell of a lot more than I want your money.

    Until tomorrow,


    1. @Mark, I got that too. Out of the blue. No explanation for the silence. Nothing.

      But at least there’s a sale on!

    2. @Mark, Well he’s a couple of weeks early on his usual yearly promotion. It’s usually sent out towards the end of the first/beginning of the second week of December.

      I do find the “respect” portion of this email ironic.

    3. @Mark,

      Dave has been taking lessons from Jimmy D Brown, who has a nice gentle, folksy, down-home, Christian approach to the hard-sell.

      Deiss started with him too–and look at the result there.

      I quite like Jimmy D, he’s a damn good salesman, as salesmen go.

  55. Since @Mark hasn’t shared it, here’s part 2 (promised in the first email), received today:

    There’s a trend in launches these days to withhold information from readers.

    There’s a reason. A mean one.

    It’s because withholding information is the best way to make people feel trapped into consuming pre-launch content.

    It’s mean, it’s dirty, and oh, is it ever effective.

    And because you’ll hear people say it’s effective, you may be tempted to model it.

    But it’s mean. And you don’t have to be mean to make money.

    I’ll explain.

    On the surface, withholding information is billed as keeping your audience “on the edge of their seats” waiting for your next piece of content.

    That sounds innocent, doesn’t it? It’s like a cliffhanger at the end of a season of your favorite show.

    You’ve been following this great story, and it’s really evolving, and then – *wham* – something happens that makes your jaw drop wondering what’s going to happen next.

    That’s great when you’ve been watching a whole series of a show – it’s been great, entertaining drama, and you’re left wanting more. That’s good stuff.

    But no sane screenwriter would ever string you along with no real plot development and leave you with a cliffhanger. You’d just feel betrayed.

    Yet that’s exactly what I’ve been seeing in a lot of launches lately.

    A lot of stringing along.

    A lot of “you’ll get the good part in the next episode.”

    A lot of “oh, wow, is it ever going to be good … if you just keep watching …”

    A lot of “we’ll tell you the details … but not yet.”

    That’s a lot of withholding vital information. And for no good reason.

    Well, there *is* a “good” reason. (Just not good for you.)

    It’s to trap you.

    You see, there’s a psychological construct called “commitment and consistency.” It means two things.

    The “consistency” part means that if you do something repeatedly, you’re more likely to do it again.

    It’s why television shows have previews for the next episode at the end. If they can get you watching PART of the next episode, it will make you more likely to watch ALL of the next episode.

    There’s nothing morally wrong about this – it’s just human psychology. There’s nothing wrong about getting you excited about getting more of something good.

    But there’s EVERYTHING wrong with telling you there’s going to be good stuff in this specific episode, then not really delivering it … and saying the good part will come next time.

    You know what I’m talking about. You’ve watched videos and been to webinars and read posts and said “Is this all there is?”

    You’d think that would make everyone say “forget it, I’m not paying attention to this anymore.”

    But you’d be wrong. And certain marketers who use this tactic know it.

    They know they can trap people into consuming more of this bait-and-switch launch content because of the “commitment” part of commitment-and-consistency.

    Here’s what I mean.

    Our brains really, really want to believe we make good decisions.

    These marketers KNOW that we don’t want to feel foolish, and that we don’t want to feel like we’ve wasted our time, or gotten excited about something not worth getting excited about.

    And because we don’t want to look bad in front of our brains, we’ll rationalize reasons to keep consuming launch content that strings us along.

    We’ll say “Wow, the first 5 minutes of this video was a pointless music montage, but I’ve already been here 5 minutes … surely they’ll get to the point soon.” Then we say the same thing at the 10 minute mark. And the 20. And the 30.

    We want to stop, but man, we waited so long for that video to load in the first place, it would be wasteful to just close it now. Right?

    They know people don’t want to admit defeat. And they’re more than happy to play that against you. So they make sure the content strings us along.

    There’s also something called “operant conditioning” at work here. It’s the idea that intermittent rewards, rather than consistent ones, make people obsessed with waiting for the next one, even when they’re constantly disappointed.

    It’s why people get addicted to gambling. One little win here and there is such a relief compared to all the losses. Endorphins go nuts.

    It’s why people stay in abusive relationships. Sure, he’s really mean to you, but sometimes he’s so sweet.

    It’s a power tactic designed to make you stay hooked on waiting for that good thing, SO YOU CAN TELL YOURSELF THAT IT’S BEEN WORTH THE WAIT.

    So you don’t have to admit defeat.

    Why do they do this? It’s simple.

    When we finally have an opportunity to buy, we’ll be so relieved at the chance to get some closure that we’re much more likely to say yes.

    And that’s mean.

    It’s marginally abusive. And borderline sociopathic.

    But boy, is it ever effective. There’s a lot of money to be made that way.

    It’s why you see videos with no playback controls on them and no indication of how long they last. It’s to get you to invest that first five minutes … and another … and another.

    You can’t pause, you can’t rewind, you can’t walk away or you might miss something and not get it back.

    It’s why you see webinars that say “we’ll tell you the price … at the end.”

    They want you to get nice and invested before they drop the bomb.

    It’s to get you consistently used to consuming content on their terms.

    And to get you committed to making this whole expenditure of time worth it in the end (read: a purchase).

    It’s mean, and it’s dirty.

    This part is important:

    This doesn’t mean that everyone who uses these tactics is mean and dirty.

    I suspect some people are just doing it because they’ve heard that it increases sales.

    But it doesn’t matter to the reader if they MEANT to be mean.

    It doesn’t matter if they MEANT to manipulate and coerce and use dirty psychological tactics to force people to do what they want.

    What matters is that they did it.


    Let me tell you what to do instead. You don’t have to be mean, or risk being seen as mean.

    Don’t withhold information.

    Let people see how long your videos are (and provide controls).

    Let them know how much content is coming.

    Give them different options for consuming it. (If you’ve got videos, let people press pause. If you’ve got webinars, let them watch replays. Don’t force them to watch live.)

    Don’t make them guess at things that should be basic information. (like pricing or what the product even is)

    And make sure every single piece of launch content is worth consuming on its own.

    An example:

    When I did the eight “Failproof” videos with Naomi last year, we had controls in our videos.

    We told people we were selling something, and what it was, at the very beginning.

    We told them how much it cost.

    We pointed to the big buy button under the video that they could click on if they wanted all the details. (We didn’t make them wait a week and a half to even see a sales page.)

    And we made sure the launch content was jam-packed with actual tactics people could use right away (whether or not they bought).

    These videos were 40 minutes each. We didn’t need tricks to get people to watch them.

    Sales were great. My best launch ever. People watched the videos over again, and saved them, because they were useful instead of hype.

    No “we’ll tell you the good parts later.” We told them now. We gave the good stuff consistently.

    Just like your favorite television show does.

    That’s what you can do.

    You don’t have to string people along to keep them interested.

    Be interesting. Be useful in your pre-launch content.

    Then you’ll get commitment AND consistency, for all the right reasons.

    I’ll be talking more about what not to do tomorrow.

    I hope you’ll stay tuned.

    See what I did there? I’m hoping to leverage commitment and consistency in you, but not by withholding information.

    This lesson is useful. Tomorrow’s will be too.

    ‘Till then,


    P.S. – “How To Launch the *** Out of Your Ebook” is still on sale
    for 50% off for a few more days.

    You can find it here if that’s your thing:

    If you’ve been on the fence, now’s a great time to save fifty bucks.

    See you tomorrow.


    I wonder if Alison and the kids agree that he’s not “withholding information”. Hmm….

    1. @formerly confused,

      I wish he’d put half this much thought into contacting the boys.

      He hasn’t called them or seen them since Droid published the “S#@% Storm” article and just last night the youngest was asking why. My seven year-old thinks it’s his fault his father isn’t around anymore; he thinks he was too loud and made it impossible for Dave to “do work”. He thinks that Dave was made to move from his apartment because he had “too many toys” for the kids there (two Lego sets being too many is news to me, but I’m going to remember it the next time they ask for the big sets at the store. :-p) No matter how many times I try to explain to the boys that it’s not their fault, no matter how many therapy sessions echo it, it just doesn’t stick. That’s the sort of information they need from their dad, and even then I don’t think it’s going to hold at this point. He’s waited too long to say it and the thought patterns are stuck.

      So to answer the question you pose, I don’t agree that he’s not withholding anything. I don’t know how much actual information he’s withholding, but he’s definitely withholding his love, affection, time, and energy from the kids. They could use that from him way more than his “committed audience” could. :(

      I probably shouldn’t be commenting here, but in a very real way, these emails of his are causing a lot of damage. There are so many unanswered “whys” that we all have, and he keeps chugging along with his business like it’s all he has when we’re all *right here*.

      1. @Alison,

        I hate to sat this but your kids are better off without having this sales garbage foistered on them right now from a pretend ‘Concerned Father.’

        You’ve had a lucky escape and your kids will get the message eventually, if they keep hearing a more realistic message.

        Go girl, you’re doing OK.

    2. @formerly confused ::

      Dearest Dave,

      Not all problems can be solved by spamming your tiny list.

      Forever Stabbing Your Unicorn,


      1. @SD, hoping you don’t think I’m Dave. I’m not. Follow my IP. I’m not in NC. :) Also, I’m not a spider. Just someone who finds your acerbic brand of journalism refreshing.

        @Alison, I hope you don’t think I was being flippant in my question. His new email series (new one today) is making me really angry. He is pretending to be all open and honest and caring to the people on his list (no matter the size of it), yet he ignores his children.

        I have an almost-11-month-old, and I can’t imagine ANY circumstance that would cause me to cut off communication with her. Ever. Do I want to sell her to the gypsies when she wakes up, ready to play at 3:30am? Of course. But I would never, ever, under any circumstance I can conceive of voluntarily cut off communication with her.

        What he has done to you and your boys is inexcusable. Forgivable? Well, I’m one of those who believes forgiveness is always possible, but I also believe that forgiveness is asked for before it is proffered. Regardless of forgiveness, what he has done is inexcusable. Period.

        My thoughts continue to be with you and your boys.

        1. @formerly confused, I think SD was just sharing his response to that email with you, since you were the one who brought it up. (Kind of like sending a reply back to the cosmos using the same stamp that delivered it.)

  56. i know you addressed this, somewhat, earlier in another post, droid..but it would be nice if your readers had an option to pay pal some fundage to alison and her boys for a happy christmas….

    it’s clear that nothing much will come from navarro and now a windfall appears in his future. makes the stomach ill…

    for her, consider it free market, capitalistic love is all – it’s your blog obviously… but alison has done *a lot* to highlight the hurtful, hurting reality that so such of the unicorn lifestyle is pushing on families. her courage, while obviously admirable, might be meritous of some kind of support in this season of giving and being thankful is all i’m respectfully presenting….

    we can’t bring a father’s love back into their life, of course but we can help show that strangers can be caring and bring a lesson of grace into focus. at the end of the day, your blog appears to be about bringing hard love/concern to those who would be led along the path of loss, disappointment and pain by flat-out charlatans…and alison and her boys are the most poignant example i’m guessing the blog has seen.

    anwyay, a thought….

    1. @just a thought, droid…,

      First off, let me thank you for your interest and compassion towards my story. The last 13 months have not been easy, and the increasingly bizarre behavior surrounding – well, everything – has been difficult on many levels. Being able to talk to Jason (both off the record and on) has helped bolster me, as has reading many of the comments on this blog in support of me and my boys.

      That said, I think it would be a terrible idea to give me money.

      It would set a precedent for others who have been on the fence about telling their stories; there are many people who are in similar situations who could benefit from a silent collection from concerned readers, as I could. However, there are also many others who would only be willing to speak to the Droid if they felt it was in their financial best interests. Doing something monetary, however well-intentioned, for me would open the door to people who expected a payout. Not every precedent is a good one – I’m sure Jason, as a lawyer by training, could attest to that with far better examples than my theoretical one.

      I truly do appreciate the thought, please don’t think I’m ungrateful. If you want to help out during this season of giving, there are several organizations that I (and my boys, in the case of Kiva) support. I won’t leave links here (as I know that will catch in the spam filter) but I can give you their names below:

      Heifer International
      St. Jude Children’s Hospital

      Alternatively, you can look around in your local area for a battered women’s shelter or an “Angel Tree”. There are often overlooked needs in these areas, children who otherwise wouldn’t have anything this season, if good-hearted people like yourself didn’t reach out.

      Also, if any of you follow @TheBloggess on twitter, I’m certain she’s doing the same thing this year that she did last year – sponsoring a gift card exchange for people in need. Last year, several thousand dollars were raised for and by people visiting her blog. It was uplifting to watch. I suggest checking in over there periodically if you want – just don’t forget to tab back over to Salty Droid. ;)

      Thank you again for your suggestion. It was very sweet.

    1. @holycrapsticks,

      Wow. Fucking – what the fucking fuck?! Just – That’s the most disgusting thing I’ve ever read. Jesus fucking Christ.

      Every ounce of humanity has now been drained from Naomi Dunford. She is nothing but a putrid sack of shit. A vile worm. A vile fucking worm in jodhpurs.

      There was a time when Naomi was only turning Dave against his family in private. When her manipulative sob stories were about her own family – before she abandoned them.

      This is not her story to tell.

      I’m so sorry, Alison.

      1. @Lanna,

        Yeah, I have to say I agree completely with you. Especially with “Every ounce of humanity has now been drained from Naomi Dunford. She is nothing but a putrid sack of shit. A vile worm.” (I had to google “jodhpurs”.)

    2. @holycrapsticks,

      I saw this too – must confess I hesitated to post it here. There’s an email address so you can let the robot know without reposting that bilious slander.

      That said, maybe people need to know how low they’ve sunk, and perhaps I’m being overly-squeamish. But the lady who’s being slandered reads this site…is this really the best way for her to discover this?

      1. @Dr Geek,

        That’s a very good point, and one I failed to consider in my total apoplectic rage at the fucking gall it took to post that entry.

        My apologies for the lack of sensitivity. Truly.

        1. @holycrapsticks ::

          I don’t think it was insensitive of you.

          Fact is SpiderCow said it :: and posted it to the web … so I don’t see how we could not talk about it.

          I’m not sure what to say about it yet though … because my head’s not finished exploding.

  57. I saw this too, because I want to keep an eye on this whole mess:

    So…. you started tap dancing then found out you didn’t like it.
    So…. you got a house and then you couldn’t decide to put in wooden floors or not.

    And then, boom. this is why it’s totally okay that some dude left his wife.

    Um, no, not really. Just because okay 1. you need money and 2. your business is not going as well as you’d like it to or, I don’t know, 3. you bought a house and couldn’t make a decision about the floors doesn’t mean that 4. it was okay for Dave Navarro to leave his family without a word.

    I was just like… um… 5 feral cats make it okay not to tell someone how you feel?

    Sleeping on the couch means you have to walk out on your sons without a word?

    This is a, how do you say, logical fallacy. But which KIND of logical fallacy is this?

    There’s a website that talks about them, actually.

    I think its… the Texas Sharpshooter, Tu Quoque or an “ad hominem” attack, appeal to emotion, false cause, and black or white.

    The sad thing about this story is that Dunford uses her “internet marketing” writing to get you to, you know, nod along, right? For someone who has “nothing to lose,” she is sure invested in making you understand why dave navarro left his wife. To use so many logical fallacies!



    1. @Mazarine,

      This line is particularly interesting:

      ¨If your marriage isn’t working, you are allowed to find one that does.¨

      I´m worried that she, or even Dave, is banking on a public reaction before whatever it is they do next. Know that Dave is more heavily involved in Ittybiz then it appears. Wait until Monday to see what the next post is. Maybe she´ll insult someone else this time.

      1. That was my thought, too, once the seething spike of righteous indignation I was riding finally wore off:

        Why now? Why, almost a year later, when the crazystorm around it has all but dissipated, did it suddenly become necessary for Neigh-omi to dredge it all up and suddenly give supposed details about the relationship she had a hand in destroying? And unless Dave was writing the post, it’s all second hand, out of context information anyway.

        There’s got to be some kind of strategic purpose for beng this openly spiteful, doesn’t there?

        Or am I just attributing humanity to someone that has none again? I’ve got to stop that.

        1. @holycrapsticks ::

          Why now? In a word … money.

          We have a small, intensive workshop starting next week. It’s live on the phone with me, it’s all week, and it’s every day.

          It’s called Break It and Start Over, and it’s specifically designed for people for whom the tweaks aren’t working.

          It’s designed for business, but you could probably apply it to tap dancing or your marriage if you’re in the mood for that.


          1. @SD,

            Makes perfect sense. Breaking one marriage was just not enough for this fucktard with delusions of grandeur, and she’s trying to go for the mass unicorning. So we all can abandon our families and sleep on two crib mattresses duct taped together.

            Count me in. Must remember to email the spider and say thank you, because a bed was just holding me back from internet suck-sess!

          2. @SD, an entire one week ‘intensive workshop’ on how to give up on things? Seriously?

            Is there anybody left who still gives a shit what this woman has to say?

            1. @Holy Sh-,

              very much so. People who have read this, even. They don´t know exactly what happened but enjoy her writing so continue to read and buy her things. They burned one community but are rebuilding another. It´s like this site and the past two years never happened.

              People don´t want to be freed from the unicorns. I know, because I´ve directly tried to warn friends. The comments on that post caused one person I know to unsubscribe though

  58. Now it all makes sense.

    At blogworld Dave was talking about how it was really good to spend time with Naomi as she understood what business was like at his level. They were also planning a huge 2011.

    It´s been 2 years since blogworld and I think that that was when the decision was made to cut everyone off.

    He´d just launched MBM with his dream team. They hadn´t driven the extra sales that he had hoped. His behaviour was erratic at blogworld. On the final day I bed to beg him to let me return his computer to him. A friend of Naomi, who he was having dinner with, even said his behaviour was weird.

    Part of the plan was cutting us all off. Even me.

    Here´s where he fucked up.

    Cutting your losses and redoing a business is fine. You can´t do that with people. I never got an explanation. I was kept on the contact form for months so copped a lot of questions about people freaking out from his lack of contact. I found out that everything had changed when he published the failproof (failsafe?) videos with Naomi.

    I was cut off but thanks to his lack of explanation, was still tied to him personally and professionally for months. This has screwed me up. I fucking defended him because I thought he was having a breakdown. All the panic attacks and problems I´ve been having trace back to this.

    Cutting off your family without explanation is reprehensible. I mean, divorce and breaking up is okay if both or even one parties are unhappy. But you can´t get out of a 10 year marriage without an explanation or several conversations. These are people.

    Previously, the droid has gone easy on Dave. He is just a victim of Naomi. I now believe that he is Naomi 2,0. He knew exactly what he was doing. He is complicit in everything Naomi is doing now – which includes exploiting his family for sales.

    I no longer recognize the person I knew. He criticized Naomi on a number of occasions but she, and CB, were where all the money was.

    So not cool.

    1. @Jade,

      I agree that defending Dave might not make sense to do ever again, but he still looks like a victim to me.

      Naomi Dunford is a fucking sociopath. That’s more clear to me now than it ever was before.

      Dave Navarro was/is, IMHO, just some regular person. He had weaknesses like we all do. He had the grave misfortune to meet Naomi Dunford during a prolonged period of great personal weakness on his part. Now he’s had his brain rootkit-ed and fully reprogrammed. Of course Dave believes he’s fine and that all these choices are just exactly what he wanted… but that’s exactly how cult indoctrination works.

      To use yet another analogy, and I swear to all reading this I’m really not trying to make light of the situation:
      Dave is Darth Vader and Naomi Dunford is Emperor Palpatine. (To see this you have to look at the sick twisted manipulation that Naomi/Emperor did on Vader/Dave to corrupt him into being an inhuman monster.)

      Defending Dave? prolly not great. but… fully hating on Dave now? …. Probably just playing into Naomi’s hand.

      Don’t believe Naomi’s lies. She can tell all truth-facts and still spin it into a lie.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

  59. With Naomi’s most recent blog post in her spam campaign for How To Break It, it seems like she’s moving from specific fake small business coaching into more general life coaching.

    Note: Because this is a website about business, the game we’re playing uses examples that to apply to business. But you could substitute your abusive marriage or your rotting house or your relationship with your codependent mother if you want. The game stays the same.

    I can save everyone the trouble of buying Naomi’s stupid-a$$ “course” btw.

    It’s obvious what it contains–nothing but lessons, possibly with Naomi talking to you, about how to be a heartless, cruel bastard and how to burn every bridge in your life and past and feel ok about doing it.

    If it’s that hard for you to be heartless and cruel, then you probably shouldn’t be heartless and cruel. And even if, in your particular life situation, it might actually be time to burn some bridges, Naomi Dunford is without a doubt one of the absolutely worse-est persons on planet from which to take lessons.

    She convinced a man to abandon his wife and kids. And, to this day, the smoldering ashes and debris from that despicable act remain.

    The reason why you can’t just “start over” is not because you shouldn’t (although generally you shouldn’t) but because, logistically it is almost impossible to do.

    Reputations have a way of clinging to you and they should. Society has evolved that concept precisely to avoid getting screwed over by bad people that are already known to be bad people. And, if we on the Internet can finally find a way for a scammers’ reputation to match their actions, then all this stupid scam bullshit and all its vast evil will evaporate almost immediately.

    (That was a little bit rambly, but I don’t have time to edit for clarity. My bad.)

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd,

      “But you could substitute your abusive marriage or your rotting house or your relationship with your codependent mother if you want.”

      I swear I just saw red. If somebody is in abusive relationship, you don’t sell them a fucking training program. You give them these numbers, as assembled by the marvelous Captain Awkward:

      In the U.S., call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 (SAFE).
      UK: call Women’s Aid at 0808 2000 247.
      Canada: National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-363-9010.
      Australia: National Domestic Violence Hotline 1800 200 526.
      Or visit International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies for a worldwide list of helplines, shelters, and crisis centers.

      Resources specifically for men:
      In the US, The Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men & Women specializes in supporting male victims of abuse and offers a 24-hour helpline: 1-888-7HELPLINE (1-888-743-5754).
      UK: ManKind Initiative offers a national helpline at 01823 334244.
      Australia: One in Three Campaign offers help and resources for male victims

  60. I think sometimes when you’ve fucked up everything, lost your family, lost years of your life, that suicide is the best remaining option, and that anything else is probably just going through the motions.

    It sucks reaching that point — and internet marketing can definitely be a big part of reaching it — but at that point, it’s as good a thing to do as any other, and better than most.

    1. @Christoph, Suicide is always a waste of time. You’re completely useless to everyone if you’re dead. It’s a burden on others to even have to bury your corpse. It’s best to stay alive in the hopes that things get better, and even if they don’t, at least you’ll have been entertained by something along the way.

      Besides, you don’t exist in a vacuum. It could be damaging to other people to see you off yourself and then they have to live with the guilt of

      A, Not having seen the signs you were depressed

      B, Not having been able to stop you, and

      C, Possibly believing they were to blame for this.

      PS. I think Dave’s kids would rather have a living, but broke dad who left them and came back, rather than a dad they have to bury and the last they’ll ever see of him is his corpse going into a plot in the cemetery.

      Wouldn’t you?

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