780 Comments »

Barbara said:

HOLY SHIT!!!

I am gobsmacked!

“I(read: maybe we) have an ad running on Zen Habits in three days and I don’t know what the fuck I’m advertising.”

“One of the benefits is that people are used to getting shit service..”

Hats off to you, Salty Droid. You ARE the man.

And a big FUCK YOU to defenders of Naomi…and, of course, to Naomi as well.

WINNER!! ::   +23

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 5:33 pm



Ryan said:

oh lord. um, i’m going to come back in an hour or two when i’ve wrapped my head around this gigantic shitstorm and what it means.

Salty, this is…. above and beyond. Holy. shit.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 5:46 pm



Sundog said:

Oh. Shit.

Ok, Salty – I was wrong.

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 5:50 pm



All I Can Say Is said:

SSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:07 pm



Martypants said:

Speechless on so many levels. Except one: You , sir, are my fake robot hero.
And Dave, it is never too late.
You both have kids all tangled up in here, you silly Internet fucktards – stop it.
You keep giving them unneeded scars, you insensitive excuses for parents. Man the fuck up, and make this stop.

WINNER!! ::   +17

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 6:16 pm

@Martypants, SD blog reminds me quite about a REAL kind of the oft-used marketing-on-internet claim from them…”It’s a game changer!”

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:09 pm



Jack said:

I think probably it’s about time to go onto repeat my “truth is stranger than fiction” understanding from all of this.

Probably all their main answers to this one:

“Because Darren/Leo/Yaro are on my “what would you attempt if you knew you could not fail” list”

would have to be the answer “get the Salty Droid blog shut down”.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:10 pm



Can'tBelieveIt said:

I really can’t believe what I just read.

1) Naomi Dunford is officially screwed. First person to send this to Canada Revenue wins.

2) I can’t believe the names mentioned and the shit storm. Is Chris Brogan going to RT this too?? How about Yaro Starak. This is damn nearly a career killer for many people involved.

3) If I am Chris Brogan, Leo, Yaro Starak, Brian, Darren, ZH or ANY of the fools that have worked with these idiots I’m afraid a lot of people’s reputations were just destroyed.

My mind is officially BLOWN.

Salty – I tip my hat to you. I wasn’t sure where this was all going as I’ve been following the details for a few days, but this is really the icing on the cake.

I have to be honest. I’ve made money in Internet Marketing. I’ve made very good money. I’ve also worked with a lot of good people. The syndicate stuff has bothered me to know end. BUT NEVER in a million years did I see how deep the lies and deception went. Today I bow down and accept my gullibility.

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]



Can'tBelieveIt Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 6:17 pm

@Can’tBelieveIt,

Sorry for my f-up. That should read “bothered me to no end.”

  +4

[Reply]



Enlightened Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:38 pm

@Can’tBelieveIt, I don’t think those mentioned are necessarily screwed – they didn’t tell her to fuck around on her taxes – but they’d better be very transparent to their audiences about this fiasco if they want to save their asses.

  +3

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:46 pm

@Enlightened ::

… that’s adorable!!

[Reply]



Apples N. Oranges Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:20 pm

@Can’tBelieveIt,

“1) Naomi Dunford is officially screwed. First person to send this to Canada Revenue wins.”

I’m just reading this now, so I’m assuming that someone’s beaten me to the fun.

I guess I’ll have to settle for the consolation prize. Lucky for me, I know how to contact the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Internal Revenue Service.

I know how busy one can get trolling the internets. Naomi and Dave prolly don’t have time to report their interwebs income and their really original idea to accomplish tax evasion.

So I’m going to do it for them.

And while I’m at it, I might as well throw in the whole third tribe’s names…cuz of that whole “inter-state commerce” thingy.

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:15 pm



Madge Crikey said:

Why, I’ve never seen such lies and deception. This Naomi doesn’t even respect the people who buy whatever it is she’s selling. I’m sure glad I wasn’t one of those poor folks she deceived into standing up for her. They got used in the worst way. Taking advantage of people’s sympathy and tricking them into making fools of themselves is just plain wrong. This is just shameful any way you look at it.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Bonnie Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 6:49 pm

@Madge Crikey,

I was just going to say the exact same thing before I came to your post, Madge — I can’t believe how little respect and caring Naomi has for her audience and customers — thank goodness she sent them all here so they could read it for themselves. They’re just a dollar sign for her, nothing more. Sad. Very very sad. And looks like Dave Navarro doesn’t care much more for people either except the dollars they’ll bring in, whether customers or coworkers and colleagues alike. And that’s the complete picture behind all these scammers. Give me your money and then screw you.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:28 pm



Cosmic Connie said:

Great. Work. Salty.

Other than that, I’m pretty speechless too.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:46 pm



Jade Craven said:

I’m the one that hooked Darren and Yaro up with Dave.

I reviewed Dave’s work on Problogger. I covered the ‘How To Launch’ book in 2009 and wrote about the mastermind the same year. In the first case, Darren gave me a percentage of affiliate sales. At the end of the year, he sent a bonus. He didn’t have to, but he did. Dave split the profit he made from the second post I did.

The next year, he hired me as a networking assistant because I have good connections. He was able to get Darren and Yaro. Yaro barely knew who he was, I was only able to ask because I sat next to him in a plane when going up to Queensland to visit my best friend. It was an accidental thing and I knew how badly Dave wanted Yaro.

This happened because I opened the relationship to both parties, and people trusted me.

Thankfully, I’ve been shifting towards doing social media work for Australian businesses because I think my past actions will have damaged my career.

That’s my piece. Just wanted to say that just because people trusted them, doesn’t mean they are bad.

  0

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:09 pm

@Jade Craven ::

Just wanted to say that just because people trusted them, doesn’t mean they are bad.

I’m not so sure about that Jade Craven :: depends who you’re talking about.

If you hold yourself out as a business expert … and you are promoting others as business experts when you know that they’re not {for monies!!} … or when you don’t know at all … then you ARE bad.

[Reply]



Jade Craven Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:19 pm

@SD,

When I worked for him, Dave was a good person. Those that promoted him trusted him.

I can’t comment about Naomi. I know they never followed through with the above arrangement.

Despite what I knew about stuff, I still wanted to vomit when reading this.

  +1

[Reply]



Dale Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:35 pm

@Jade Craven,

“When I worked for him, Dave was a good person.”

You can only really say that the particular SIDE of someone YOU saw APPEARED to you to be “good.”

Human values are solidified at a very early age. More often than not, the only thing that “changes” is OPPORTUNITY.

His faults, however, do not begin to compare with those of Naomi Dunford.

  +6

[Reply]



Jade Craven Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:47 pm

@Dale,

True.

I was trying to clarify why people promoted him. We saw the good and that’s why we supported him.

There was no indication, through emails and IM transcripts, about this.

People made a decision based on the information that was presented to them.

I’m not defending anyone, I’m trying to point out that I’m partly responsible for some prominent bloggers connecting with Dave, and that their endorsement is an indirect result of my opinion.

There are a lot of bad emotions going through my head but I can’t express them because I’m too close to the situation.

  +3

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:55 pm

@Jade Craven ::

I’m trying to point out that I’m partly responsible for some prominent bloggers connecting with Dave

Not true Ms. Craven …

It’s like meat into a meat grinder :: doesn’t matter who :: doesn’t matter when :: drain um for all their worth. The customers AND the B-team … especially the B-team.

You just save yourself Jade Craven … forget about these idiots.



Shit Storm Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:27 pm

@Jade Craven,

You said: “We saw the good and that’s why we supported him.”

That was your mistake…you should have seen the proof

Trust = Irrefutable proof

No proof no trust

You did this for the money just like everyone else

Dave never had an ounce of proof that he walked the walk and was doing any of the things he was selling

He didn’t have to because you were all willing accomplices

He didn’t even have a business set up and he’s giving business advice

  0



Dale Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:04 am

@Jade Craven,

“their endorsement is an indirect result of my opinion.”

Correction. Their “endorsement” was a direct result of their own desire to make a fast buck. Period.

As SD pointed out, this wretched “scamdustry” is all about finding that “next” person who can be monetized as a new “flavor” and then discarded in the trash. “They” are less interested in the specifics of the person than they are about filling in the dates for their blog pitches and autoresponder calendars.

You should be more focused on putting some distance between yourself and the gears of that machine.

WINNER!! ::   +7



HolyMotherofShitness Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:10 am

@Jade Craven,

Get the fuck out. DOn’t defend these people or their fictitious good character. Focus on what good you can do in your own life. Take care of your physical and mental health. And, get the fuck out.

Seriously.

  +4



YaroBrogan Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:24 pm

@SD, I agree with this.

Third tribe.

  +2

[Reply]



YaroBrogan Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:26 pm

@SD, I have to agree with Salty on this one.

The entire third tribe “b-team syndicate” is guilty.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



NotsoFast Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 7:44 am

@Jade Craven,

I think you overestimate your importance and impact. They let you feel like you made a difference so they could continue treating you like a peasant, and using you as a cheerleader.

  +5

[Reply]



987 Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 2:59 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Jade Craven – Yet another narcissist with its name in its domain name.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 6:59 pm



SpideySenses said:

Oh shit. Did Naomi call Chris Brogana sleazy bastard? Nice, and he tweeted her shit too.

  +3

[Reply]



Sunshine Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:17 pm

@SpideySenses,

It looked like that was referencing someone named Martine from a few lines up.

  +4

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:26 pm

@SpideySenses, Take that back. Michael Martine is the sleezy bastard.

  +5

[Reply]



Enlightened Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:42 pm

@SpideySenses, Yep –> Michael Martine = Remarkablogger.com

  +5

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Michael Martine Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:59 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SpideySenses, when I read it I thought she was saying Brogan was the “sleazy bastard.” I don’t think of him that way, and of course I don’t think of myself that way, so to me it’s just puzzling no matter who she’s talking about.

If you read enough Naomi or have ever listened to how she talks, you’d know she could very likely be tossing that out as an offhand sarcastic elbow to the ribs, and not truly mean she thinks anyone is actually a sleazy bastard. Tongue-in-cheek, as it were.

Sleazy bastard, though… that’s a new one for me. Has a nice ring to it. I should go change my tagline right now. :)

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Apples N. Oranges Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:25 pm

@Michael Martine,

I guess that the old sayin’ is true…

You can lead a horse to water….but you can’t make him drink.

In life, wow you react can be a game changer.

  +5

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:32 pm

@Michael Martine,

Ummm…

“(I know Martine rubs the wrng way sometimes, but for the time being he’s got just a little more pull than me and I want to leverage that) (yeah, he smacks of desperation marketing at times)”

Your reaction to this is almost comical.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:45 pm

@Jaime,

If I cared what anyone thought about me I wouldn’t be commenting here.

But I didn’t offer my reaction to that specific thing that Dave may or may not have said. I was commenting on who exactly was the “sleazy bastard” Naomi may or may not have been referring to.

So I’m not sure what you find “almost comical” about it, other than I have a weirdly dark sense of humor and maybe you almost laughed.

Two people talking shit about me behind my back doesn’t really matter. I’ll be sleeping just fine tonight.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -1

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:31 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD ::

“I’ll be sleeping just fine tonight.”

You mean because of the Ambein? Cause it certainly can’t be that you’re resting easy in your confidence of your own ethics and integrity …

… unless you’re batshit delusional of course … which seems to be going around at the moment.



Anon Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:34 pm

@Michael Martine, Can I leverage your pull, Michael.

  +2

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:46 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Anon, c’mere and pull my leverage.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Anon Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:53 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD, Michael after reading the conversation between Naomi and Dave do you feel like you’ve been used?

  +5



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:57 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Anon, It’s not pleasant to see that but I don’t feel that I’ve been used.

LOSER!! ::   -9



Tia Sparkles Singh Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:19 am

@Michael: love the candour, man.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   0



Hmmmm.... Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:22 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD, your reply is seriously “@anon, c’mere and pull my leverage?” … What is this, the 2nd grade potty humor copywriting course? Srsly, my comment is less accusation than observation, but your response (what some might call candor, others call sarcasm as a defense mechanism… Like trying to stay cool in a truly desperate situation) is perfectly in alignment with what one would expect from a sleazy bastard.

Oh and why for you take up defense through numbers, verifiable facts, etc? Why you use only words?

  +3



SD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:45 pm

@Michael Martine ::

… well Naomi can’t be wrong all the time.

Can she?

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:50 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD, lmao. :)

LOSER!! ::   -7

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SD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:51 pm

@ Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD ::

Am I joking?



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:01 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD, did I say you were? Just because you’re not joking doesn’t mean I’m not laughing. I don’t care if Naomi thinks Brogan or me is a sleazy bastard, in jest or for real.

LOSER!! ::   -9



Jaime Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:48 pm

@Michael Martine,

Since your here and are acting very casual about working with scammers, I have to ask you:

It’s obvious you make your money selling advice on how to make money

How are you any different than these people?

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:50 pm

@Jaime, That’s a great question actually and deserves a serious answer.

First of all, both things you said are completely wrong, so let me set you straight.

I do not actively “work with” Dave or Naomi. Way back before any of this shit hit the fan, I sold products from both of them as an affiliate. I’ve chatted with Naomi and Dave and been interviewed by Dave years ago which was included as content for one of his products. Naomi mentioned me in a book she wrote.

And I was happy to be an affiliate for them because the information and training they provided was good. You can call them hypocrites and scammers and tax evaders all you like, but I didn’t think that their advice on setting up an online business or selling ebooks was bad advice. It was good advice and it helped people.

I wouldn’t take it back and I don’t regret it.

But for you to say I “work with scammers” present tense and implying some kind of high level of involvement is completely incorrect.

The other thing you’re wrong about (and this is also how I’m different) is what I do. I do not make money selling advice on how to “make money.” I invite you spend some time reading over my articles.

My whole point is that 99% of so-called “blogging advice” does not apply to a real online business. It only applies to blogs, which are not real businesses in that they do not sell anything (I see the advertising model as a whole different model—apples and oranges). You could actually have a successful blog and a sucky business. I’m against the tail wagging the dog.

What I do is work with business owners who want to use blogging, social media and email as a way to get leads and make sales. It’s not about having a popular blog or tons of followers on Twitter. Often this means we have to take a good look at who their customer is and what their needs are so that the content part of “content marketing” does something real for people. You could say a lot of what I do is try to “deprogram” the conventional wisdom out of them so they can actually get somewhere.

I do my best to walk my own talk and practice what I preach. Otherwise why should anyone trust me? Other than the fact that I look like the fucking Unabomber (Oh wait, I said I was gonna be serious).

The people that I do work with run real businesses like hugely successful commercial WordPress theme frameworks or produce animated product demo videos. They are not “push the button and money flies out of the screen” types.

If that’s not different enough for you, then there’s nothing more to say. I have actual work to do, which I’ve been neglecting while I pay attention to this situation because a couple people seem to have talked about me behind my back.

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Not Clay Collins Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:05 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

weren’t you on the faculty for Clay Collins at his Project Mojave “earn a full-time income in three months” continuity scam? What happened with that?

Along with Laura Roeder and Johnny Truant?

Clay was one of Naomi’s first standout students. They’re practically twins.

Curious and serious. In some later sales material, Clay basically admitted he only did it to cash in in. I’d say that association should embarrass you more than the gossip above. Was joining up with Clay a mistake or what?

WINNER!! ::   +8



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:30 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Not Clay Collin,

I was but my participation dropped off like a rock, which really wasn’t cool on my part because regardless of what you feel about Clay, I kinda let things down from my end of that arrangement and if there’s anything for me to be embarrassed about, it’s that.

I don’t agree with your description of Project Mojave as a “scam.” There was really a ton of good stuff in there to help people start a business.

Clay is teaching stuff I don’t see anyone else teaching, and I see a lot of marketing stuff. That to me makes him interesting and relevant and worth learning from. That he once upon a time may have been a client of Naomi’s is irrelevant to me now.

LOSER!! ::   -9



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:20 am

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD ::

I’m going to leave dealing with you until tomorrows :: but please note that you’ve been added as a category on this site. A decision I never take lightly … so you might want ease up on the emoticons and uncomfortably fake fucking jokes. I am the opposite of amused.



Not Clay Collins Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 11:10 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

fair enough about your participation. I think Clay is a piece of shit who teaches shit, so we can disagree on that.

  +4



Apples N. Oranges Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:01 pm

@Michael Martine,

Since you don’t respond to analogies, I just have one question and I’ll leave you alone…

How can you possibly be selling that which you are not capable of doing?

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:56 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Apples N. Oranges, I do sell that which I am capable of doing. I’m very keenly aware of that. Makes all the difference in the world.

LOSER!! ::   -10

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:40 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD ::

I’m glad you are capable “of doing” … that’s refreshing.

Why don’t you just shoot me an email then linking me to a couple of your successful non-MMO clients or students … or a couple of your own money making non-MMO sites?

That would be peaches.

Then maybe we can clear up this whole misconception I have about you being a gross failure who knows nothing about nothing.



Bonnie Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:16 pm

@Michael Martine,

Sorry Michael, but I listened to your little video clip and if you ask me, it doesn’t sound like you’re very professional or even very sure of yourself — I’m surprised you even get any business. But that’s just my opinion, for what it’s worth.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:07 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Bonnie, thanks for the feedback on that. I probably could have done a better job with it for sure. It’s been bugging me lately and I’ve been thinking I should redo it.

I am very pleasantly surprised that I get to make my living doing this. I enjoy it very much. It beats having to wear a tie and have a commute any day.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Plop - The Sound that Terds Make Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:22 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

You just passed the Injun Samurai test. Which is the only way to deal with the situation at hand.

  0



RT Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:25 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

http://saltydroid.info/sean-mcalister-gets-got/

  +2



RT Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:31 pm

@Plop – The Sound that Terds Make

What is the Injun Samarai test?

I remember his great string of comments a while ago but what specifically are you referring to?

  +2



RT Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 11:12 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

Got to thread about Sean McAlister, JV Press anonymous wanna-be bully. Turn on “search”. Search “Injun Samurai.”

Good times.

Good times.

BTW, Sean McAlister epic failed at the Injun Samurai thread.

Comments from that point forward are definitely a top 3 read on this site. Cuz …. oh, you have to see for yourself.

  +5



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:48 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD ::

It beats having to wear a tie and have a commute any day.

I seriously doubt you could get a job that required a tie.

@Bonnie ::

He couldn’t get business on his own … almost none of them could … that’s the point of having a bunch of other liars blowing smoke about how great all the other liars are.

In my quite expert opinion :: Michael Martine’s Internet advice is worth zero.



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:10 pm

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

take salty up on his challenge…you answered every other comment about you

If you were half the success you CLAIM to be then it should take 10 seconds to type the URL’s of your long list of accomplishments

You are an expert at giving business advice so it should be DAMN easy

  +6



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:06 pm

@SD

I seriously doubt you could get a job that required a tie.

I did exactly that for over ten years, as a corporate trainer teaching people in classrooms (and later through webinars) on how to use software like Microsoft Word.

You know, like… real teaching, but without the shitty salary public educators are stuck with.

And I did send you an email with the information you asked for.

You’ve never received any business advice from me, so your opinion on it is quite far from expert.

WINNER!! ::   +7



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:27 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD thinks teaching Microsoft Word is real teaching? And happens to be a necrotic scrotum overflowing with decayed feces.

LOSER!! ::   -12



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:43 pm

@Slowly Walking,

Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD thinks teaching Microsoft Word is real teaching?

Last time I checked, when you stand in front of 30 people in a classroom and show them how to do stuff, that’s called teaching.

I’ve taught everything from all of Microsoft Office to project management to HTML/CSS. I’ve also written the courseware that we used for some of those classes as well.

Our students were everyone from poor schmucks who just lost their jobs and were there on behalf of DET to private corporate classes for companies like Ben & Jerry’s, Burton Snowboards or General Dynamics. And folks in between who just wanted to advance their skills. Live classroom training is much more effective than just reading books or looking something up on the web.

I’m glad you used the words “necrotic scrotum,” it made it so much easier to find your comment on the page after coming here from my email. Thanks.

WINNER!! ::   +12



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:42 am

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

I’m sure with all your trainer experience you’re great at walking people through a few basic steps, but there is a HUGE difference in expertise between the trainers and the actual do-ers of things. Not a knock on my corporate trainer friends, but if I really want an expert on how xyz system works, I ask the engineers. If I want an expert on excel, I ask the analysts. If I want an expert on counter intelligence, I ask someone who’s actually been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. In none of these cases would I go to the cubicle drone who put together the trainings. I’ve worked with trainers to develop modules to train sales people, call center reps, etc. They know they aren’t experts in anything other than creating training materials. They know the content has to come from real experts and they dumb it down to the target audience’s level and make the slides pretty.

  +2



Shorty Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:45 am

Oops, I don’t know why didn’t autofill my info. It’s me shorty :)

  0



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:01 am

@SD,

Good point, and you’re right about that. Although that kind of training starts looking more like consulting one-on-one instead of “ok you guys all go through this exercise step by step with me on the screen.” Kind of another level.

  +1



Shorty Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:26 am

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

That it’s kind of another level is kind of the point. All these self proclaimed gurus selling fluffed up ebooks and rehashed courses are at most qualified to create remedial level training materials or lead a pre-written intro course. They have no real expertise. They don’t even have the decency to hire real experts to provide content. Instead they are passing themselves off as the actual experts. That is just plain wrong. It would be like an Excel trainer claiming to have the same level of expertise as an Excel programmer or even a financial analyst who uses Excel to create models and forecasts. He may know all the common shortcuts, and to a novice alt-c/alt-p probably does look like magic, but if that trainer really had the same level of expertise, he’d be using it to take home his 6-figure salary as a programmer or analyst. It’s wrong to impersonate an expert like that.

  0



Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:00 am

@Shorty

I agree. Also, knowing something and knowing how to teach it are not even remotely the same thing, but people feel qualified to do it nevertheless. Computer nerds know a great deal, but often they can’t explain their way out of a wet paper bag and to have the patience to teach? Heh… That’s why great trainers are very well-paid. The reason why people get stuck with crappy ones is because businesses are cheap with their training money.

When you have someone who doesn’t really know what he’s doing and combine that with an inability to teach (or even write that well), you have most IM/MMO people.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   +5



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:08 am

@Michael Martine, SLEAZY BASTARD,

The problem with guys like you is you have NEVER built a business…a real business and so you can’t possibly give advice

In the video by cartman in this string Naomi talks about Niche sites as set it and forget it and you make a bunch of money quickly

first off that’s not a business and on top of that it’s total bullshit

Guys like you read a few books learn the basics of what to say and polish that turd of information into a fine glow and sell it

Guys like you throw around the words like you know what they mean when in fact you’ve never applied those words

You’ve never walked the walk and took a business from idea to profits to significant profits

You call each other business experts when in fact you are not even a business

your stock in trade is to find the uneducated and talk a good game…conniving the whole way…in the hopes they never catch on that you’re a fraud

You are being called out…

WINNER!! ::   +8

# 1 September 2011 at 7:15 pm



what?? said:

I’ve read this three times and I still can’t think of a successful comment. This is so disturbing. Brilliant work, SD!

  +6

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 7:17 pm



anonone said:

As I read this, I kept feeling like I was reading one of those scam e-mails that I get from Nigeria occasionally.

  +6

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 7:19 pm



Doctor Mario said:

lolololol pwnd

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 7:51 pm



Wow! said:

Is it poor form to ask how you got a hold of this? I don’t doubt its veracity, but wow! Very damnable.

  +5

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:08 pm

@Wow!, Inquiring minds DO want to know.

  +2

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:50 pm

@Wow! ::

It’s not poor form to ask :: but it would be poor form to answer.

I got it :: I verified it :: and here it is.

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 7:52 pm



Wow! said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

How did you get a hold of this?

LOSER!! ::   -4

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 7:53 pm



Real or Fake Threat? said:

Dear Naomi Dunford,

The Droid showed you his. Now it’s your turn to show him yours.

In marketing parlance,

If You’ve Made A Blatantly False Allegation of a Death Threat, Then the Following Four Words Are The Most Important Words That You Will Read If You Want to Mitigate Your Significant Legal Exposure!

Post proof.

Or retract.

WINNER!! ::   +20

[Reply]



Shit Storm Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:19 pm

@Real or Fake Threat?,

Amen

lets see it

step right up and show us all your PROOF

Here’s some business advice for you Naomi

Trust = Irrefutable Proof

Lets see what you got

CALL

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:00 pm



very very confused said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Ok.. how is this different to how large companies merge and sell and kick their customers around? Mint.com sold to who knows who and I couldn’t get into my account for months. Then obviously the new owners have my data.

How is this different from large companies dropping prices after launches? How is it different from Apple (the most manipulative, CULTY like company in the world?)

I see two business people cutting a deal, a private deal. If one business partner is not as smart as the other.. that’s something different.

However, I hate to think that all these people selling shit online think about their readers the same way. I look around and even my favorite blogger seems to be in it. She co-sells a product with Naomi. Or maybe she’s not as smart either and was used.

*sigh*

Are you going after the rest of them?

LOSER!! ::   -8

[Reply]



Ryan Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:06 pm

@very very confused,

How is it different? Because Apple sells real products that make me happy inside (and enable me to do all sortsa stuff) at certain prices. Naomi and crew sell frauducts filled with notbusiness advice for more than my iPhone cost.

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Apples N. Oranges Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:29 pm

@Ryan, @Jaime, @Shit Storm,

Deep. So true. And witty. And Funny. All at the same time.

  +4

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:10 pm

@very very confused,

They’re selling air and bullshit for $$$$.

Everything is based on fake testimonials.

It’s a big circle jerk.

And none of these yokels have actual authority regarding anything. They create platforms to fleece people looking for information that’s freely available anywhere.

Big difference, wouldn’t you say?

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



New here Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:06 am

@Jaime,

I don’t agree with you when you say “none of these yokels have actual authority regarding anything”
For what I’ve read during the last week (I didn’t know about Salty Droid before), these people have Authority in Scamming.

  +2

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:56 pm

@New here ::

It’s true :: but not really. Most of them are actually total suck at scamming …

For instance :: what kind of idiot scammer accuses The Droid of death threats this far into the game??

A very bad one.

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:14 pm

@SD, And when does the good scammer keep making recordings of themselves knowing after that they somehow will make it to the SD blog?

Only the good scammers know they must go full-throttle into the scams, and not want to try to make themselves believe they are somehow not scamming…it’s the downfall of these faux-scammers IMAO (In My Arrogant Opinion).

  +1

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:49 pm

@Jack, “faux” isn’t the good word for them, it should be more something like “bumbling” scammers on account of the idea that they’re still scamming but not too very good about doing it, then.

  +3



Shit Storm Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:13 pm

@very very confused,

It’s different because these two people are selling advice on making money when they’re broke…when they’re not even remotely doing those techniques they’re selling others on doing

…and in case you didn’t catch it Naomi is a tax cheat…and this little scheme she concocts is about avoiding paying taxes and possibly future taxes

So lets recap

they don’t have any money…so selling how to make money advice is more than a little BULLSHIT

She is a tax cheat…not very good business advice

They have no respect for the people they sell to…again not very good business advice

stop drinking the cool-aid and put the credit card down…

  +5

[Reply]



Gv Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:35 am

@very very confused, @Shit Storm, There’s a saying that goes: “Fake it til you make it.” Well… it appears these two have the first part figured out.

  +3

[Reply]



Apples N. Oranges Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:14 pm

@very very confused,

“How is it different from Apple (the most manipulative, CULTY like company in the world?)”

Apple sells products work as advertised. Apple is a competent and qualified hardware and software manufacturer.

Naomi Dunford IMO is selling hot air. She is incompetent in marketing chops that can be proven empirically. She is praying on significant psychological insecurities of her marks.

As to your other point, if a smoking gun such as this shitstorm (because this is a “smoking gun” if ever there was one) that applied to a major corporation existed, there would be major legal ramifications in the civil, criminal and administrative arenas.

There’s this company that you might have heard about that avoided criminal charges from the US Government for helping Canadian businesses to circumvent certain laws by paying $500 Million.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/behind-googles-500-million-settlement-with-u-s/

Oh the irony! But these “expurts” are counting on the fact that they’re small fry to the man.

Which is why the Droid’s work is so fucking important. Cuz if the man can’t or won’t look out for us little people, who will?

Is there an expert in the house? … I’m an expert!

That’s how Maria Andross and the other fuckers get away with it.

Thanks SD!

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:56 am

@very very confused,

“If one business partner is not as smart as the other.. that’s something different.”

Then this is something different. Frankly, their attitudes about their customers, their pricing collusions, their fluff products and their lack of real, sustainable success are not the meat of this. That’s old news.

This is about the B-team n00bs being fleeced. This is how I read it:

Naomi chats up Dave and says, ‘Hey, I’m tired of running this business that makes $100,000 to $200,000 a year. Do you want it, like, for free?’

Dave must’ve been a kick-ass PM at Lockheed, because he’s all like, ‘Specifically, what tasks would I be responsible for?’

The spider thinks he’s seen through her con (He hasn’t!) and abandons her carefully constructed lie about being tired of running it, not being a detail person, etc., etc.

(Her bio on her website says she’s a “word nerd” and “worked for ten years in marketing and corporate communication for a few Fortune 500 companies,” which is all about being a detail person. I know, I know, her bio’s probably a lie, too. Later she sleazes her way out of explaining her sketchy accounting by saying “[e]xplaining isn’t my strong suit,” when explaining is basically also what corporate communication – and fucking blogging about blogging – is all about. She’s bad at what she does when it suits her con job. The rest of the time, she’s an expert!)

She admits it’s about (handing off) the tax liability. Dave is a freaking idiot savant at getting her to blab, “I made a fuck ton of money and don’t want to pay tax on it.” In other words, ‘I would like to give you this liability – for free!’

Naomi says the business (“[I]t’s not a business. It’s a website.” Whatevs.) makes (grosses?) “between $100K and $200k” annually. (I know, that’s probably a lie. When she’s forced to break it down monthly, using the bigger numbers it totals $10,900/month, which works out to $130,800 annually.)

But she has less than a month’s living expenses banked, so IttyBiz’s expenses must be huge relative to whatever income it does earn. Or those earning amounts are fake, or cash flows suck right now. IttyBiz really ain’t worth that much – barely enough to live on. (Keep in mind she did “not register a business,” so it’s not that she’s left all the money in the business checking account.)

And the bottom line gets worse. Other commenters have mentioned rumors that IttyBiz owes affiliates money, but the clincher is that tax liability. IttyBiz owes “$150k in tax.” Naomi says, “If I get rid of it now, I can probably get away with pretending like it never happened.” Dave hears, ‘WE can definitely get away with pretending like it never happened.’

The reality is, once the tax authorities see Dave’s tidy little LLC with its business checking account and tax ID number are running the show at IttyBiz, they’re going to hold him responsible when they figure out back taxes are owed. Naomi? Oh, she was just a contributor.

So Dave is taking on $150,000 in tax liability in exchange for a “quit-my-job-ASAP” level of work and a tiny amount of income. Even after this has all been revealed, he says, “[T]his still feels scarily skewed in my favor.” He may be an intelligent guy, but when it comes to street smarts, he’s “not as smart as” the spider.

WINNER!! ::   +23

[Reply]



Gv Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:20 am

@Lanna,
You took the words right out of my mouth. Dave apparently needs some schoolingz ( real-world or academic) on “pre-merger” due diligence.

I’ve bought and sold businesses before (not huge transactions but big enough to affect me if I messed up), some made money, some didn’t. All of the transactions were only after serious digging, questioning, and paying for outside resources to tell me plainly if the transaction was a potential winner. And, as I said, even after such due diligence we invariably would miss something. Something good or something bad. It’s all part and parcel to doing business; it just comes with the territory.

With that being said, if a potential “partner” mentioned a tax liability that wouldn’t necessarily scare me off if that entity had a plan in place on how to handle it. What would have had me looking for the exit faster than a drug dealer muling a bag of reefer who just walked into a bathroom only to find four cops and a drug sniffing dog (see Resevoir Dogs) is when the response to the question is (paraphrasing) “I’m not a detail person” or “I really don’t know how much the debt is.”

This is a story of the venal leading the vane.

Just sayin.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Iam3r Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:15 am

@Gv,
“What would have had me looking for the exit faster than a drug dealer muling a bag of reefer who just walked into a bathroom only to find four cops and a drug sniffing dog (see Resevoir Dogs) is when the response to the question is (paraphrasing) “I’m not a detail person” or “I really don’t know how much the debt is.””

Yeah that would’ve sent up a huge red flag for me too. When I reached that point in their convo, I loled. Naomi instantly lost any remaining credibility she might have had with me at that point.

But it looks to me that part of how this scam “works” (ultimately it will fail not work) is that long before the “A-team” become “A” and before the “B-team” become “B”, they’ve already been thoroughly brainwashed.

Have you ever spent a big pile of cash on something that was a mistake? Ok, but what if you did it twice (don’t ask me why) and it (seemed) to pay off once but fail the other time?

There’s a lot of complicated Id-level brain stuff that goes on in almost the same manner as what would go on in gambling addiction.

I’m trying to say I think neither Dave nor Naomi have any real clue wtf they’re into or just how messed up they really are at this point.

PLEASE NOTE: I am *not* making excuses for them. I am *not* saying that we should ignore their behavior.

As far as I know, being addicted to a destructive behavior does not, by itself, constitute a legal defense against tax evasion or fraud.

All I’m doing is playing armchair psychologist. It’s fun. I like to try to guess peoples’ real motivations for doing things, and I come at this with the assumption that no one ever actually believes him- or her-self to be the “bad guy”. Generally, people always believe they are justified in whatever actions they are taking even when they are doing something that all us spectators can see is very, very wrong or messed up.

Of course–just like Naomi and Dave I am absolutely *no* kind of expert. Unlike them I have no problem admitting it.

But that’s because my ability to eat tomorrow isn’t contingent upon you believing me.

–
The really dangerous people are the ones who believe they have a monopoly on The (Absolute) Truth.

  +4

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:01 pm



Shit Storm said:

Not surprised at all…not one bit

These people are all full of shit

Naomi and Dave are NOT the exception…they are the RULE

Here’s the best line you have EVER written salty…says it all

Salty: “How can you possibly be selling that which you are not capable of doing?”

I would add this to the end…OR DOESN’T EXIST

The internet marketing/biz op/make money world is all smoke and mirrors

shovel salesman selling shovels after running the streets yelling theirs gold in the river

People buy into it because they want to change their life so bad they overlook the obvious…they let their dream cloud their better judgement

Go back to Salty’s quote – IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING…you do…you don’t wrap it into a course and sell it

You use it every day to make money with it

look at every last business the world over…you build a business with your knowledge and skill

They resort to this type of shit because it’s EASY money ripping of Noobs

Where are all the defenders from the last few days?

I’m not surprised one bit…this is more the norm than you even can imagine

btw what was all that /over stuff

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



whatthewhat Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:41 pm

@Shit Storm, Holy crap! It wasn’t until you said it (I was still processing everything I read in the post) that I realized not one of those trolls from the last few days has had a single thing to say. Funny huh?

  +3

[Reply]



Deuce Monkey Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:05 pm

@Shit Storm,

“Go back to Salty’s quote – IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING…you do…you don’t wrap it into a course and sell it”

Horeshit. Some of the best businesses in the world find byproducts from their output and exploit it. It’s brilliant. Byproducts that is.

“The internet marketing/biz op/make money world is all smoke and mirrors”

Also horseshit – There are tactics and strategies to be learned in the IM market that will help any business sell more shit. I guess I’m just saying it’s not ALL smoke and mirrors because when something works… it works…

either way. entertaining stuff over the last few days Mr. Droid… your traffic is crushing it. You have now officially built a mass cult following.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -3

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:18 pm

@Deuce Monkey, I can’t vote your comment down right now, so here:

“I guess I’m just saying it’s not ALL smoke and mirrors because when something works… it works…”

We hear this often. Obviously it “works” in that a few components of persuasion and influence “work.” Until they get overused (like false scarcity) or the smoke evaporates. But in IM, there’s nothing behind the smoke. Pencilneck Godin called it “permission marketing,” but that only works when the marketer maintains integrity. Eventually dirt shows up, and people ignore.

Let’s check Dunford’s platform in a few weeks. When something fails… it fails…

  +5

[Reply]



Deuce Monkey Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking,

That’s a broad statement and I don’t see to eye to eye with you. “But in IM, there’s nothing behind the smoke.” WTF are you talking about? Online marketing and internet marketing is something that every business needs to use to drive more traffic and build a better brand. sounds like you’ve been “had” by some gooroos and are pissed off about the whole thing.

don’t hate the player – hate the game… err… scratch that, reverse it, don’t hate the game, hate the player.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:22 pm

@Deuce Monkey, I did get had. I was in a vulnerable spot and made emotional decisions rather than rational. Lost a couple years, then I got out. Now I own it, and it’s why I comment here now & then.

IRL we’d have beers and disagree philosophically about marketing stuff. But here I mean IM-as-MMO, IM-as-bizopp/work-at-home scams, IM as building little cults/movements/”revolutions” when you have no previously established record of doing jack. Yes, legitimate businesses like, say, Bonobos have built their menswear brand almost entirely online, using affiliate sales, an active email list, and ad buys. Dunford and her pals have learned to speak and co-opt these terms into their scams. Bonobos is a different universe than a stay-at-home mom trying and failing to blog her way into the vague fantasy of wealth Dunford sells. Yes, Dunford blogged her way to some money, but how truthfully, and how’s it going now?

So I think we can agree at least that there’s a big difference between marketing in the online space and “Internet Marketing” as category of sleazy hucksters? Linkshare as the former, Clickbank as the latter. One’s fine with me, the other can rot in hell.

PS
I have no affiliation with Bonobos, and honestly? Their pants aren’t as good now that they’re scaling up.

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:18 am

@Deuce Monkey,

I would ask if you can name one company that’s selling a distinct competitive advantage to the marketplace?

I don’t think you can…your sadly mistaken if you think real companies share their hard won advantages to the masses

They might sell something innocuous…MAYBE

If a company has an actual competitive advantage in the market place and turns around and sells it instead of using it then they’re making a huge mistake

IM is smoke and mirrors…again I ask you to share the gold you claim exists

  +3

[Reply]



Regrets Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:13 am

@, True… companies like Google and Apple have you sign NDA’s just to walk around inside their buildings. Secrets not only aren’t shared, they are guarded with teeth.

  0

[Reply]



Shit Storm Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:21 am

@Deuce Monkey,

give me an example of IM working

as for the byproducts comment you have no idea what real businesses do if you think they would trade their secrets for byproduct cash

byproduct is a good word for that idea

  +2

[Reply]



Deuce Monkey Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 10:34 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Shit Storm,
Turn on discovery or history channel and watch one of the 13 shows about jobs, fishing, making cake or whatever else.

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:53 pm

@Shit Storm, “They resort to this type of shit because it’s EASY money ripping of Noobs”

It’s sort of like the idea of when I’m playing a game like Reversi on the cell phone and I’m winning so much…but I’m winning because of the fact that I’m playing against LEVEL 1 and I know just exactly how to make the program do the bad moves.

  +4

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:50 pm

@Jack,

Exactly right…like shooting fish in a barrel

  +1

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:07 pm



bohica said:

Damn well done, once again, Salty.

So in this episode of taking down the Turd Tribe, here’s what I’ve learned…

(1) Naomi Dunford can’t run her business, doesn’t like running her business, and wants to stop running her business and do the “fun stuff”… like telling people how to run their business?

What kind of batshit crazy world does she live in? She’s giving advice to people on stuff she’s not even capable of doing herself… (I know, I know… broken record, that’s the whole point of exposing these frauds on your blog, blah blah blah… shouldn’t be tool surprised.)

(2) Naomi Dunford made a lot of money, but doesn’t want to pay taxes. No great revelation there, but I’m seriously doubting her income claims even though they were in confidence between friends in a chat that wasn’t meant to make it here for all our eyes to see… I just doubt it.

(3) Naomi Dunford spent 3 grand on and ad and had no idea what to advertise. Again shocking… but not really.

(4) Dave Navarro should have never left his job at Lockheed where he was no doubt building shit to blow stuff up. That’s way cooler than blowing your reputation up, and your family off.

(5) Dave Navarro ripped of Syndicate sleaze Jeff Walker’s Product Launch Formula, niched it down to launching ebooks, and Naomi was his biggest revenue generator. Not surprising because her audience would likely lean towards a frauduct like that. She took advantage of this position and lured him into her spider web.

(6) Dave Navarro and Naomi Dunford just implicated the entire Turd Tribe in this little chat, calling them out and stating their honest opinions. While not surprising, it is definitely interesting.

Bottomline, all the BS about Dave leaving his family, Naomi & Dave’s secret love nest, Naomi’s fake death threats… None of that matters!

Salty just exposed Naomi & Dave for what they are (scammers)… and what they most definitely are not (experts).

My advice to Dave would be to do groveling back to Lockheed and try to build more bombs…. and if you left your family in the lurch, now is the time to make amends since your scamming days are over.

As for Naomi… better get used to orange jumpsuits. The authorities don’t like when you make a shit ton of money and don’t pay taxes… even if you launched your “expert” career on the back of heavy student loan debt.

- b.o.h.i.c.a.
(bend over here it comes again)

WINNER!! ::   +22

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:33 pm

@bohica,

Also

*Naomi said she only about a months worth of money to live on (after Dave said it) yet said she made somewhere between $100 and $200K. Either she can’t manage money or she’s lying. Or both.

*Naomi was accused of money laundering.

*Naomi wanted to invent some charity thing in order to not pay affiliates.

*Naomi is a con artist.

WINNER!! ::   +14

[Reply]



Enlightened Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:07 pm

@SpideySenses, Yep, and since she owes hundreds of thousands in taxes I’m guessing she’s going to be sending out a lot of desperate sales emails in the next few weeks to try and round up some of the funds she needs to pay it off. And people who don’t know the truth will go and buy her frauducts and lies. Which is even sadder.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



KG Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:19 pm

@SpideySenses,

I must be naive. I thought the Cambodia thing was something that she wanted to do to truly help humanity. It just seemed incongruent to me that a con artist would want to be a humanitarian.

However, when you stated: “Naomi wanted to invent some charity thing in order to not pay affiliates”, this appeared to be more congruent. How would setting up a charity prevent her from paying affiliates? If she wanted to sell her business to Dave, wouldn’t she be done with paying affiliates?

If you respond, a kindergarten version answer would be appreciated. (IM, e-books, fraud, syndicate, etc. is a foreign world for me).

  +4

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:09 am

@KG,

Humanitarianism is the preferred shelter of con artists. Isn’t the public transit where you live teeming with children raising money for basketball camp? (Hint: There is no basketball camp.)

I believe the plan here is:

1. Like the basketball camp urchins, she preys on do-gooders by saying 100% of proceeds/profits go to charity. Do-gooders crave a hit of the warm fuzzies and fork over their credit cards. Even the greedy-guts sign up because they can say they’re doing it for the children when really they’re buying into her get-rich-quick pitch. This is why she’s willing to, “give just my portion and it’d still be pretty hot.”

2. Rather than pay her affiliates their commissions for promoting her crap, she tells them it will be good PR and the right thing to do if they:
a. Promote her crap for free since all the money goes to charity, or
b. Donate their commissions to the same charity.
It’s not that different from legit free press for charities, but I’ll bet she has to play hardball with some of the folks in-the-know. Threaten to not promote their next piece of crap if they don’t do this, and promoting each others’ crap is the only way the Syndicate makes money.

3. [PROFIT!] Here’s the shocker, KG: she keeps all the money for herself. OMG, can you believe it? And you know what, those basketball kids keep the money, too. Well, they spend it at Walmart on bikes and Playstations, but they keep those for themselves.
________

No, no, no, silly, she’s not going “to sell her business to Dave,” she’s giving Dave the opportunity to take on a website and $150k of tax liability – for free! Oh, no, wait, that wasn’t my point.

She says, “I get half of the sales of my products and stuff” in “royalties, very similar to affiliate payments.” Sound’s like she’s getting her 50% off the top, so really there’s no reason for her to want to cut out the affiliates.

Maybe this is her sole act of kindness in this whole convo. For every one of her “products and stuff” he sells, he’s gotta give her 50% off the top, figure in 10% overhead (Web hosting, CDs, ads) and an 8% affiliate commission (based on legit big box stores’ rates – no idea for the Syndicate), and he’s making 32 cents on the dollar. Maybe she’s generously telling him how to hang onto that other 8 cents. He’s gonna need to to pay those taxes.

More likely, it’s out of force of habit. She’s so used to conniving to fuck over affiliates that she still does it even when it won’t cut into her earnings.

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



KG Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:25 am

@Lanna,

Thanks for your response. Wow. With all I have read regarding this very sad and twisted saga, hiding behind a humanitarian front is the lowest of lows for me.

If what your write is indeed true in the case of ND (and it certainly makes sense), it makes me wary of donating to any organizations if this is how some charities work.

And I boo booed when I wrote “sell her business to Dave” before I hit submit, and Salty doesn’t have an edit button. I knew that she was giving Dave a “golden” opportunity to help her with her tax problem. However, you make a very good point with your math crunching and we see what Dave would be left with. Sheesh.

You’ve been quite helpful Lanna.

What shocks me now, is how can so many people buy these fake things that have created her mega unclaimed income? in a time of economic hardship for many? It will be interesting to see how many supporters and customers continue to remain.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:55 am

@KG,

When I come here, I bring 100% cynicism. In real life, I do a lot of volunteer work for genuine nonprofits, so I hope I’ve opened your eyes but not put you off donating.

Maybe I should’ve left this line in, but I felt like my post was long enough:
Naomi runs the company/website. Naomi runs the charity. Naomi’s the only one who knows how much money came in and where it went.

Genuine charities issue receipts, publish annual reports and file taxes. Actually, to her credit, Naomi never really says to whom the money’s being funneled:

“I’m going to use them to, um, keep 70 girls in school and out of the sex trade in Cambodia.”

From:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oJHCENXtqSYJ:ittybiz.com/how-to-make-an-extra-285-a-month-and-an-awesome-story/+Naomi+Dunford+cambodia&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_de|lang_en&client=firefox-a

“Hey, so, remember? Last week? I told y’all if you bought Teaching Sells through my affiliate link I’d give the money to the Cambodians? We made $12,405.” “That is a WHOLE SCHOOL. We still have to fundraise later for the bells and whistles — like, say, teachers — but we raised enough money to build a WHOLE SCHOOL.”

From:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:w-tjZE7hTNkJ:ittybiz.com/cupcakes-cambodia/+Naomi+Dunford+cambodia&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_de|lang_en&client=firefox-a

Did she send $12,405 check made out to “The Cambodians” to The Cambodians, ℅ Santa Claus, North Pole? It doesn’t sound like the money got to Cambodia, because she’s waiting to raise more for “bells and whistles” – or because she’s keeping it for herself.

Anyway, back to your wariness of donating. First off, as this illustrates, if the money’s supposed to be going to charity, find out the name of the charity.

If they’re supposed to be a big organization, they’ll be reviewed on http://www.charitynavigator.org/.

Smaller nonprofits – including churches, arts organizations, etc. – will still be listed on http://www.irs.gov/app/pub-78/.

That’s U.S.-centric, but I doubt the reporting standards are that much different in Canada. Bottom line, if they don’t have an annual report available, don’t donate.

WINNER!! ::   +11



KG Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:31 am

@Lanna

(This is a reply to your post with the many links. I think the reply button on this site is a bit wonky).

That was very informative. Thanks.

Now I’m very curious as to what happened to that $12,405 cheque. Maybe when she disappeared for those 6 months, she was off in Cambodia helping build the school? Probably not. I’m sure the CRA will find out the particulars.

I think it’s one thing to play on the greed or the desire for a better life tendencies that people have. Quite another thing to play on the heart strings of people that want to give.

The world is a very weird place.

  +5



Jack Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:25 pm

@KG, Disclaimer: This post may be abit displaced due to the wonky-button:

Maybe you can go onto find some CA info from here:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/menu-eng.html?=slnk

And also they give us help for finding much more:

“The Canada Revenue Agency maintains a searchable list of Canadian charities. Use the Charities Listings to:

confirm whether a charity is registered under the Income Tax Act and is therefore eligible to issue official donation receipts for income tax purposes;
view a charity’s information return;
learn more about a charity’s financial information (assets, liabilities, income, and expenditures);

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/lstngs/menu-eng.html

  +3



Carla Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 10:10 pm

@KG & @Lanna

Just to add to this, I started looking into this because it the whole school in Cambodia thing seemed like such an odd thing to throw into the mix.

This is what I found:

Oprah featured it either on her show or magazine, around 2009, which is when this log was made and I’m assuming around the same time Naomi initially brought it up on her blog.

Her total of $12k and some change and it building a school, again it seems pretty specific to be a lie. But going back to the Oprah thing, they spotlighted a charity, “America Assistance for Cambodia” that built schools in partnership with Cambodian organizations and the Asian Development Bank. It got a lot of attention around that time (here is a story about a school teacher that subbed to raise money to fund a school.)

For a $13,000 donation, individuals can sponsor a school. $10,000 goes straight to construction and the remainder goes into an operating fund. For each donation, an additional $20,000 is provided by the Asian Development Bank.

Based on the timing and details, I’m pretty sure she was referring to that charity. 12k alone wouldn’t build a whole school even in Cambodia.

Did she actually donate? You can look at the schools and donors page to see for yourself. The links on the school names are to pictures of the actual opening ceremonies for the schools. I don’t see anything that could be associated with Naomi or IttyBiz, and if she actually donated, I’m pretty sure she would take credit it for it based on her personality.

Seeing that, it made me think of another “charity case” where she collected donations for a woman who was supposedly in an abusive situation. I wasn’t following her blog at the time and it was just something I happened to come across. I just read that one piece and didn’t know the rest of the situation. It makes me wonder if that was all a scam too and that she was just gearing her readership up to donate.

As for the rest of it, I really don’t have anything else to say other than what I said on the previous post. Saying, “it doesn’t matter what someone does in their personal life” is a lie. You are who you are no matter what the circumstances.

But I am really concerned about Dave. He’s made a habit of running from and avoiding his problems. This is something he can’t escape and I can only imagine the pressure is going to get worse.

I hope he realizes that there is nothing so bad that can’t be fixed if he is willing to just own up to it and face it. And he has a family that will love him no matter what and will stand by him.

Naomi, on the other hand, worries me. I would love to see a psychiatrist’s analysis of all this.

Some of the quotes people have posted here from her site, she basically comes out and says she’s lying, but in a joking way so people don’t believe it. This is a characteristic of people with a personality disorder, I don’t remember specifically which though . . . maybe antisocial?

She is planting all these seeds. She tried to cut the legs off of whatever was coming here by accusing SD of death threats.

She tries to turn Dave’s brother into the bad guy by exploiting the tragedy of their mother for her purposes and trying to make it seem like he is in fear for his life from *them.*

She makes a joking comment about drugs on her last post.

It’s like she’s trying to inoculate people from believing the truth by feeding them a lie twisted with truth first.

She is a dangerous and manipulative person who has no remorse. Go and read about what sociopaths do when cornered and then look at this situation and tell me what you think.

If anyone knows where Dave is and cares about him at all, you need to get him out there now.

WINNER!! ::   +21



_cartman_ Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:34 pm

@Carla,

Correct.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090918044936/http://ittybiz.com/cupcakes-cambodia/

  +4



Carol Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 12:53 am

@Carla, That was a VERY rational and insightful comment. Thanks for making it.

  +5



Gv Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:42 am

@KG, This is purely speculative but… As far as I can tell there are no extradition agreements currently in place between Canada and Cambodia.

Maybe she has done some research and started lacing her posts and private communications with this Cambodian Dream when she realized her tax liabilities were too much to handle legally. Then when this shiite hits the propeller she could shuffle off to Phenom Penh with no interest or intent on returning to get some good old fashioned maple syrup.

Or am I giving her too much credit?

Site to check Canadian treaties: http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/search-recherche.asp?type=&page=TLA

  +4

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:41 am

@Gv,

And if what you write above is the case, the lowest of lows for me, has even sunk lower.

The only thing lower than this would be to further exploit the Navarro family and air more dirty laundry (as someone is hinting about with SD in a post exchange below).

The people I feel most sad for aren’t even those that have been scammed. Yeah, that’s hard and not nice, but the “scammees” are adults. I feel most sad for the children of these families that will one day see what their parents have done and see that their parents’ shortcomings have been displayed for all to see on the public stage of the world wide web.

  +5

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:44 am

@Gv, I doubt she’s smart enough to think ahead to extradition. But it’s all in the wannabe Tim Ferriss mold: “Geoarbitrage,” because Cambodia is dirt poor so American dollars go a long way; the bullshit charity, since all these snakes (Dunford, Clay Collins, Mike Koenig’s wife’s weird charity, etc etc) talk about wanting to “save the world”; the pompous, inflated-head ego. Dunford might even really want to go to Cambodia and help, but it’s the same dysfunction that has her fleeing families, fleeing her business, fleeing responsibility to her customers. Grass is greener.

There are many worthy charities out there. And many independent organizations that audit how they’re doing.

  +6

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 4:24 pm

@Gv, I want to guess that it was really just for and about the grab-onto-Oprah buzz really, but I found out about that you are right about the xtraditino, because here’s the current list:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-23.01/page-21.html#h-36

Which is right off from the official extradition act:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-23.01/

which is right off from:
RCMP right here below:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/services/sef-fis/assistance-eng.htm

  +3

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:11 pm



Hal (the original Hal) said:

Now that’s what I call shock and awe. :-o

As soon as someone reports this to the CRA, they are compelled by Canadian law to investigate. And they are relentless.

Combine that with maybe some international fraud, the IRS, etc. and Naomi is going to wish she really was a spider.

Wow … that was a shit tsunami, not a shit storm.

Quite the life lesson for Dave on playing with snakes … bet a middle management job with health care at Lockheed Martin and a wife and kids doesn’t look so bad now does it?

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 8:28 pm

@Hal (the original Hal),

“Quite the life lesson for Dave on playing with snakes … bet a middle management job with health care at Lockheed Martin and a wife and kids doesn’t look so bad now does it?”

UNGRATEFUL SOB!

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:12 am

@Jaime,

When he says, “you’re already my biggest income surce right now anyway,” I want to look him in the eye and say, “Lockheed fuckin’ Martin is your biggest income source right now.”

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Moi Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:13 am

@Hal (the original Hal),

Money Quote:
“Wow … that was a shit tsunami, not a shit storm.”

  +4

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:26 pm



Enlightened said:

Wow, just wow.

Will there be any more posts in this saga SD? If not, I think I may take a break from my refreshing every few hours and get a life.

This is unbelievable. I’m disgusted. They are both so done. I want to see the names mentioned in the transcript at least say something (besides Michael Martine who has commented above).

I also think this transcript proves Dave did leave with just his laptop as SD said – clearly the desktop left behind had some remarkable evidence on it.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Sundog Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:51 pm

@Enlightened,
“I also think this transcript proves Dave did leave with just his laptop as SD said – clearly the desktop left behind had some remarkable evidence on it.”

Pretty sure you figured it out, but still – hot damn

  +5

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:37 pm



Anon said:

I want to know how the Naomi sympathizers feel. They were all so outraged and upset and couldn’t believe anyone would attack a woman for being a woman. Now that they know they’ve been had, I want to hear from them. I also want to know if they’re going to spread this story like they spread her lies.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Crazy Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:03 pm

@Anon, They are still tweeting in her defense…. Sad part is, most will never see this part of the story.

  +3

[Reply]



Sunshine Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:36 am

@Anon,

I read and shared both posts made by Naomi. I didn’t post in her defense here.

I also posted a link to this article and said that I felt like an idiot. Then I began unfollowing/unfriending/unsusbcribing everyone in the “industry”.

Gullible isn’t normally a label I apply to myself, but it fits today.

  +6

[Reply]



Me too, sort of Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:44 am

@Sunshine,

It’s not easy to spot, so be good to yourself.

I come from a town where the high school lacrosse coach learned the game form a book, then led his team to six straight state championship titles.

It’s possible to teach what you only sort of know and be convincing.

I’ve read some of the implicated bloggers and actually learned from them. I bought the genesis framework. Not sure now if it’s necessary but I bought it.

I’m really sorry to find this out about these people. Funny thing is, they’ve been telling us what they’re up to, all the way along. They just make is sound like a good idea.

Stepping back, it does resemble a huge ponzi scheme. And I wish I’d listened to the little voice that’s always been there.

So hell, let’s just be grateful the Salty Droid is standing here.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:00 am

@Sunshine, it takes time to wake up to this stuff. Took me a couple years. From the time I bought my first “infoproduct” my gut knew it was the wrong path.

Remember that a lot of the things that got you into this are actually good things about you, like wanting to provide for your family, to save for the future, wanting to better the world, this kind of thing. (I still have my big projects I wanted to fund with an online business. They’d be farther along if I’d never bothered with the online business.)

Take it easy on yourself. Know better next time. Good on you for the unfriending & unfollowing, and good luck in your future path.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Iam3r Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:35 am

@Anon,
I was briefly a Naomi supporter, but I have since deleted the Twitter and Facebook posts I had made that linked to her article.

And now I think about it, I should probably go delete the post I made on her Facebook wall, then–to really start the poop flying I should attempt to post a link to this article there. That would be fun.

Since I had already done the twitter follow thing and since half her follower numbers are probably fake, and since the whole twitter follower count is now revealed to be so damn vapid and fake anyway, I think I will keep her as “followed” for now–that way if she makes any new crazy posts I’ll know about it right away.

As for the actual shouting to anyone and everyone of Naomi as fraud, I will do that, but it will take me a little while to get with it. For some reason, it’s a lot easier for me to take up the rallying cry against some oppressed woman than it is for me to take up the rallying cry against some run-of-the-mill icky fraud peddler. I’m not sure why.
–
Truth? Lord Borusa (#DoctorWho) once said, “Only in mathematics shall we find truth.”

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:09 pm

@Iam3r, you wrote, “For some reason, it’s a lot easier for me to take up the rallying cry against some oppressed woman than it is for me to take up the rallying cry against some run-of-the-mill icky fraud peddler. I’m not sure why.”

Because first you need to take a bath! I know how it feels.

  +2

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:56 pm



Neil said:

So never mind where is the smoking gun – where is the smoking preemie baby?

  +6

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 8:58 pm



Source? said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

SD – what is the source? Did you see the original? If this is supposed to be a chat how would anyone else even get it?

Frankly anyone (NO I’m NOT saying it was you SD) could take some real parts of a convo, mix in some bad stuff, and shill it as the real deal. In fact, give me an hour and I could come up with a great “exchange” between you and Santa!

LOSER!! ::   -10

[Reply]



Moi Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:27 pm

@Source?,

Skype keeps a history of all your chats.

  +2

[Reply]



Google v. Skype Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:35 am

@Moi,

I think Navarro mentioned they were on Google chat?

  +1

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:44 pm

@Source? ::

How would I “see the original” of something digital? This sort of thing this is verified by reading it … checking the facts and timetable … looking for small inconsistencies or mistakes … etc.

I see none … and I now a couple of other thousands of people can do the same.

I also verified it in ways I’m not going to talk about … but it’s verified.

[Reply]



also waiting Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:47 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD, How the hell did you get ahold of this?

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 9:17 pm



Slowly Waking said:

Damn. She’s basically asking him to take on her tax liability– internationally! Dave, why did this not sound fishy?

Naomi, PLEASE DO NOT GO TO CAMBODIA. It is a deeply damaged country. You would only make it worse, no matter how much stolen, untaxed money you stuff in your suitcase.

However, you can consider these quotes for bold headlines in your next sales letter:

“I want to stop the emails coming to my inbox”

“I don’t know how much money we make”

“I don’t want a business. It’s the business part I hate.”

“I’m not a detail person”

“Explaining isn’t my strong suit. :-D”

“I know fuck about the bureaucratic side of biz”

“people are used to getting shit service”

“Speak sweet nothings to my ego. :)”

Dave, I made a list for you but it just made me sad. If you were working at Lockheed Martin, you can do impressive things.

“Once this teleseminar is over, I hope I’ll have a shitload more influence”

“I have like, a month of money in the bank”

“I’m hoping to make $5-$20K if I can play a really big game”

“I have to figure out wat to DO about healthcare and shit”

“I’m not sure how many I can move because I’m not sure how much the plaers will promote”

“on one hand, I hate when this positive thinkign shit works, but then I love it”

Thank God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit I never made more than $135 online so I didn’t end up there. I hope you get your life back together.

Four Hour Work Week… Digital Lifestyle… Freedom Business… Passive Income… fuck.

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Davebo Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:45 am

I still don’t know if he was stupid, naive or just blinded by greed (probably the last one). He felt like he had just won the lottery.

Also, he expected “to make $5-$20K if I can play a really big game”. Some other make $45K in two hours just teaching people how to use Google+ when it was still in beta testing phase. That’s a big game (and it’s by far not the biggest for these people)

  +4

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 9:25 pm



IttyBiz 1000 said:

(Just wanted everyone to get to see this for the contrast. It’s Naomi’s sales letter for her continuity program.)

quote/

Here at IttyBiz, we get a lot of email. Like, a lot. And almost all of the email we get is awesome. We like it when people write with nice things, we like it when people alert us to embarrassingly vulgar typos, we like it when people send us links to cool stuff.

Then, one day, we got the best email of all. We got an email from a very nice woman who told us that her own ittybiz was going so well, she quit her job.

First, we cried. Then we printed this email out and nailed it to the wall.

Over the next several months, as more and more emails like this one came in, we added more printouts to the quitter stack. It became a really impressive stack, and getting those emails was the best part of our job.

Then we had a crazy thought. What if we made getting these emails the only part of our job? What if we turned our secret mission — getting people out of the crazy ass rat race of doom and death — into our not-so-secret mission? What if we, you know, tried?
The IttyBiz 1000 Was Born

The IttyBiz 1000 is a project in utero. It’s changing every day as we refine and add and shape. But the core is the same:

We want to help 1000 people quit their jobs this year.

We’re still in the early phases of creating a small army of motivated, successful, fulfilled people who are ready and able to take charge of their life, their work day, their career and their mission.

If you’re as impatient as we are and you want to start now, take the first step and sign up for the IttyBiz 1000 instruction manual call to arms manifesto newsletter thingamajig. It’s cool.

/quote

  +5

[Reply]



Anon Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:41 pm

@IttyBiz 1000,

Yes, it’s amazing how someone will clean up their language for a marketing campaign as opposed to a private conversation.

  +4

[Reply]



Bonnie Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 9:54 pm

@IttyBiz 1000,

“We want to help 1000 people quit their jobs this year”

I guess she must have meant helping them quit their jobs by getting sent to jail?

  +5

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:42 am

@IttyBiz 1000,

“What if we made getting these emails the only part of our job? What if we turned our secret mission — getting people out of the crazy ass rat race of doom and death — into our not-so-secret mission?”

Because, you know, having a job that pays monies every 2 weeks and stuffs is lousy compared to sucking lemmings dry.

This is PART OF THE SALES PITCH! Many people get conditioned to hate where they’re at in life simply by reading this crud and going after “the dream”.

Start a REAL fucking business … you know, with real products, employees, taxes, an office, and all that other shit these people have no clue about … and you’ll figure out there’s a TON more involved than you ever “dreamed”.

Yes, you CAN … MAYBE … HOPEFULLY earn more with your own business. You PROBABLY will if you pay attention to how REAL businesses operate and completely ignore these fools.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Jade Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:24 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@IttyBiz 1000,

I probably shouldn’t be saying this however:

The ittybiz 1000 is completely different to the speakeasy. The Speakeasy was a site where there would be 1 call every week, occasionally with a guest. The 1000 thing was something that happened with the site relaunched that was discussed above, but never really expanded on.

I quit the speakeasy after a couple of months, so don’t really know what happened to it.

LOSER!! ::   -4

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:49 am

@Jade, haven’t heard about the Speakeasy. More important is the MINDSET on display.

And the fact that NONE of the letters talked about are in the letter. Because she never got any letters? Hmm.

  +4

[Reply]



I signed up for that Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:34 am

@IttyBiz 1000,

I signed up for that. And I sent in a jesting email saying if I didn’t get to quit my job, I was going to blame them for it.

And they responded with equal jest a few weeks later.

Wondering now if that response was them cultivating what they thought might be a mark.

I wish I’d saved the email.

But then it went dark and I never got any of the promised correspondences, except a sales pitch, months later, in which Dunford said something like, “I get no money for this, it’s just that I really believe in it.”

Was that something Navarro was selling?

This is so weird.

  +6

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:53 am

@I signed up for that,

Naomi Dunford subscribers should dig up any and all emails, then send them to the Droid (contact link above).

If you have personalized responses, hopefully they’re oozing like the dialog showcased here.

  +4

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 9:31 pm



WHOcked-on-Fonix said:

<<< Looks around, scratches head…"Where did all the fan-boys/girls (read trolls) go?"

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:21 pm

@WHOcked-on-Fonix,

Packing up to head to Mexico, no doubt.

  +1

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:34 pm

@, Anonymous

I guess we could swapstitute a couple of names, but yep everything else sounds about (aboot) right…

  +1

[Reply]



WHOcked-on-Fonix Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 10:37 pm

@, Anonymous

  -3

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 10:13 pm



What do you think? said:

So…what do you think about this? Too far fetched or maybe true?

On August 31st 2011 ( on http://ittybiz.com/sometimes-the-bad-guys-win/ ) she typed the following:

“Dave has been vilified. He has been crucified in the court of public opinion. Every move he makes gets him attacked more and more. His customers have abandoned him because they think he is as evil as his brother makes him out to be.

He will probably never do any real business in this industry again.

There is no way for him to win. It’s not safe to go back to Raleigh. He may never see his boys again. They will likely be brainwashed to believe that it was his fault, just like his father and brother brainwashed HIM to believe that his mother simply didn’t love him enough to stay.”

Do you think on August 31st 2011 as Naomi was typing that, she was thinking:

“Thank god it’s not MY business anymore and now it’s Dave’s problem. Plus, I get to look like a compassionate person with my sympathies going to B-Team Dave. Thank God none of this shit is my problem anymore. Dodged a bullet there. Plus I got to keep all my internet moniez and no one is the wiser about my avoidance of taxes. But that’s price you pay when you get tangled up in the B-Team. he he he!”

September 1st Salty posts this Spider Shit Storm post ( http://saltydroid.info/spider-shit-storm/ ).

Do you think Dave even realizes he was used by Naomi to avoid taxes among other things? Do you think he would even consider the idea that Naomi is playing off Daves misfortune (or whatever) so she can look ‘innocent’ and ‘supportive’?

Is this too far fetched? Would What do you think?

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:47 am

@What do you think?,

Someone supposedly “in the know” posted above that this transaction/merger never saw the light of day.

I have no clue. It’s the intentions that are damning.

Oh, those other stupid “online confessions” are also.

  +6

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:32 pm

@What do you think? ::

Yeah I think you’re on to something there. She’s vilified him more than anyone else.

Everyone should also notice that she’s trying to highjack his product at the end :: then she can haz more monies without having to rehash Jeff Walker herself.

The whole “do you want my Itty Biz instead of Johnny” thing might have been a flattery-ruse.

This deal did not happen for reasons not figured out by me yet. And one imagines no taxes were ever paid … and no Cambodian’s saved. Although if it turned out she had paid her taxes … and had all her paperwork in order … that would almost be creepier.

[Reply]



Unicorn Army Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:45 am

@SD, “almost?” No, that would defiinitely be creepier. ;-)

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Jack Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:40 pm

@What do you think?,


“He will probably never do any real business in this industry again.”

Just move onto Utah. Problem solved!

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 11:06 pm



RT said:

Where are the trolls???

I really expected more activity out of them … Hard to defend against this huh?

My observation … if Naomi is A team then this must be a retarded ass team!

  +6

[Reply]



Argo Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:23 am

@RT, The trolls realize that once the knee deep bullshit rises above their conscienceless heads, there’s really no way to continue defending it.

  +6

[Reply]

# 1 September 2011 at 11:58 pm



someone who's had a gun put to her head said:

So what was so dastardly about this exchange?

*Droid Edit* As previously mentioned :: anonymous comments about the Navarro family are no longer being accepted. Enjoy your deletion.

  -3

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 12:45 am



I feel sick said:

Just in case Spiderbitch wants to repackage Ittybiz and sell it for squillions of dollars to raise her taxes, I’ll help her out>

http://web.archive.org/web/20110605084747/http://ittybiz.com/archive/

Shouldn’t take long for one of your misguided trolls to re-up everything for you.

One of her classics>

“I grant you, I know ZERO about hiring. Nothing at all. I have lied on every job application I’ve ever written, and I get my mother, my husband or my best friend to write my references. I don’t believe a goddamn word anybody says on a job description, so a normal hiring process would be out.”

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Frank Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:13 am

@I feel sick, That’s quite a quotation from Naomi that you dug up! Not only does she appear to be devoid of ethics, she’s so arrogant she brags about it. Wow.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:42 pm

@Frank ::

Yep! … just like Irwin

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 12:50 am



someone who's had a gun put to her head said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Coward! A big chunk of that post was relevant to this post. Don;t want to read the truth?? How so?

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:05 am

@someone who’s had a gun put to her head ::

Chirp away idiot … say whatever you please … mention the Navarro family and I’ll delete it. It’s not complicated.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:03 am



I feel sick said:

Just to help Naomi ut, heres her full archive of posts from het hugely successful website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20101123233718/http://ittybiz.com/archive/

Have a dig around theres some gems in there>>>>

“There are two kinds of honesty. One is dumb. The other is not dumb.
The first kind is honesty for honesty’s sake. This is the kind of truth you tell when you don’t even need to tell it. The kind of truth that has no relevance to anyone. The kind of truth that does nothing but alleviate your own guilt, fear, or discomfort. ”

Its starting to make sense…basically you are a liar…right?

“Tell the truths that needs to be told.

That covers out-of-thin-air honesty – the kind of statements you make without provocation.”

So basically you enjoy lying..right?

“Redirection is a skill that everyone needs. It is sometimes also known as being evasive, sneaky, or avoiding the question. This may be true, but since you’re going to be doing it anyway, you may as well know how to do it properly.”

So now your teaching others to lie..right?

And finally some words of wisdom from my favourite Spiderbitch>>

“If I see one more fucking person criticize internet marketers for “trying to sell a lifestyle” while happily drinking Coke and typing on an iMac…

If I read one more fucking blog comment saying marketing is dirty, while linking back to their own website…

If I hear one more fucking person tell me that ebook sales pages are yucky but, gosh, they loved The DaVinci Code…

As a marketer, I can be FINED AND JAILED {her capitals} for lying. You can do it whenever you feel like it. I have to creatively highlight the good points of my product while deftly redirecting concerns about the bad points.

You are under no such obligation. You can just lie.{Yup, you have her permission}

So maybe it’s time to get off the fucking high horse about marketers manipulating the truth.”

So basically its good to lie..even if it means finings and jailings and shit..cos you don’t give a fuck about selling frauducts..right?

And really Naomi, you are such a potty mouth…I feel sick

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:41 am

@I feel sick,

That’s quite a cesspool there, isn’t it? I’ve found a few floaters of Naomi’s myself:

“An experiment in not being such a damn whore all the time!”

“Finally, we’re having a sale this week. In a bold move towards only prostituting myself in front of people who want me shaking my scantily-clad thing in their face, I’m not making a big fuss on the blog. If you want to hear about it, you’ll want to be on the cheap list.”

I apologize for allowing Naomi to plant the image of her “shaking my scantily-clad thing in their face” (her own words). I realize it’s probably induced celibacy in a few readers.

“Wherein my husband kicks total ass and I say cock and balls a total of 23 times”

“Figure out the difference between cocky and ballsy. You would not BELIEVE the search traffic I get for this post. Well, never mind. Yes, you would.”

Yes, Naomi, yes we would belive all the traffic you divert from other types of porn sites with your constant foul mouth and sexual come-ons. But once they’ve seen you do they stay?

Then there is the absolutely breathtaking blog post where she compares a woman who she admits she stood up for an online consulting to an anti-semite, a racist, an anti-gay, misogynist. Why? Because the woman dared to open a PayPal dispute! Naomi’s words follow:

“I’m not angry at this woman. I’m frankly glad I didn’t spend an hour of my life talking to someone who hates marketers. What concerns me is that we are teaching our clients and raising our children to believe that what this woman did is acceptable.

Let’s take what her friends and colleagues publicly replied to her and apply them to a less Fun To Hate demographic.

Me: “I’m done with Jewish people. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam. :(”
You: “I totally agree! They are out to make money for themselves, not you.”

Me: “I’m done with black people. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam. :(”
You: “Hey babe. Why so blue?”

Me: “I’m done with lesbians. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam. :(”
You: “Don’t get your pretty little panties in a bunch, my dear. Just keep on being the bright and shiny you! You rock.”

Me: “I’m done with women. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam. :(”
You: “Sounds like a rough day – sorry to hear it :(”

Nobody said “Goodness, gracious! What an incredibly prejudiced, stereotyping, bigoted thing to say!” Nope. “You rock.”

Can you believe the gall of this woman?! She doesn’t keep her own online appointment for which this woman paid $600 (!) and then she has the nerve to use this woman’s “misbehavior” as Naomi considered opening a PayPal dispute to be as the opening for a rant on how we’re raising our children. This is what the bilked woman had said on her own Twitter page to raise Naomi’s ire:

“I’m done with social media and marketing gurus, shamans, and experts. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam. :( ”

Well, she learned the hard way. Naomi’s last word on the subject?

“You can never take back the stuff you say when you’re mad. Never.
Never, ever, ever. You never could before social media and you certainly can’t now. Maybe if SHE apologized, I’d accept that. Probably not, though.”

Naomi wanted an apology from a woman she had attempted to cheat out of $600. Breathtaking.

Thank you, Salty Droid, to alerting all of us to this scam.

WINNER!! ::   +14

[Reply]



I feel sick Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:02 am

@Barbara,

Yeah theres thousands of her gutter level writings…which she dumbly thinks are gone forever when she deleted her blog.

Therese just so much crap she has wrote…that it explains the diatribe response to SD’s original findings.

Shes one totally fucked up person who went so far down the shit creek she has not only lost the paddle shes sinking faster than the Titanic.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Shorty Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:53 pm

@Barbara, I hope sends Naomi’s stood up client this blog post. She deserves to feel the rush of being thoroughly vindicated!

  +2

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:46 am

@Barbara ::

Wow!

“I’m done with black people. Just done. Everyone’s a con artist and everyone’s running a scam.”

Yes the plight of “marketers” who steal … and the plight of black people. Totally comparable!

All these trolls demanding “evidence” should have just spent like 3 minutes reading the piece of shit filth on that “problog”

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:56 am

@SD,

Wasn’t that incredible?! She had the nerve to publicly berate a woman who she failed to keep an appointment with, a woman who had paid $600 an hour for Naomi’s “coaching”, and to equate her with a racist.

The woman did not name Dunford in her tweet about marketers but Naomi made damn sure it was easy to find out who said it, then when some comments on Naomi’s blog critized her for outing the woman Naomi eliminated their comments.

She is so fucking hateful, spiteful, vicious…and that’s to her customers!

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:06 am



_cartman_ said:

Uploaded Wed November 05, 2008

$176,000 so far this year [[I assume meaning '08]]

[[the figures are broken down, by category]]

I doubt they are real….but this is what is being publicly stated [[as proof no doubt]]…you can go to CRA with this video…and the transcript above…

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:28 am

@_cartman_,

Naomi quote at the 3 minute mark: ‘Niche sites are set it and forget it and make a bunch of cash right away”

Doesn’t get anymore bullshit than that

Google did 9 BILLION in the last quarter…98% from PPC

what do they sell…search…they need repeat searchers/users to keep coming back so they can sell ads

No way in hell they’re going to allow BS sites to rank…and in the remote chance they get ranked its for no traffic keywords and the sites make a few bucks…certainly not a business

Her idea of build a site and never do anything again to improve that site and that you can make a BUNCH quick cash is all LIES

…anybody who didn’t know about websites and search engines would hear her lie and think its gospel

This is why people like Naomi and dave are scammers

btw this isn’t a business and isnt business advice

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:53 am

@,

something happened…lot of things are happening….must be a traffic issue…this was actually to be attached to someone who mentioned filing a report with the Canada Revenue Agency…since a transcript alone may not be enough for them to start an investigation, the video with her own claims of yearly earnings, and the transcript definitely would.

@anyone,

I keep getting the wptouch pro template loading on my desktop and laptop [[which is for mobile devices]], but it keeps going back and forth between the the two templates randomly. Not sure if there is testing going on…an intermittent problem….or an issue with my systemS….both my systems run the exact same shitload of techtool browsers which makes my browser quite unstable, and the issue is so intermittent that I can’t really test to find if the problem is on my end…so I’m not sure if this is an issue in general…

if anyone else is experiencing this problem…please inform…

Thanks…

  +5

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:02 am

@_cartman_,

Template issues, voting issues, other random things… all happening since this was posted last night. It was even showing me logged into the website as the Droid himself for a while.

  +2

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:20 am

@Jaime,

Thanks Jamie…ironically I “know” you because of a random transient issue that propagated my fields…so it was an amusing coincidence to see that you were the one that answered my comment…

Thanks again for the confirmation.

  +2

[Reply]



Dale Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:40 pm

@_cartman_, I also encountered that field issue. Everything is due to traffic overwhelm and I suspect the server folks made some temporary server cache mods to keep it operational, and it’s not ideal, but a stopgap. I keep several browsers installed, and I’ve been able to switch browsers and that has helped. But some things are temporarily wonky, like voting.

  +6



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:42 pm

@Dale,

thanks…yeah…but seems to be a little more normal now [[afternoon loll probably]]…at least I haven’t seen the other template load at all since around 1:00pm [[not sure if that is a new template, because I never had that theme load on the iPad...maybe I should see which theme loads on the phone]].

Yeah voting seems pretty much out….all the posts [[except one strangely enough...ohhh the power]] are greyed out…I normally would vote…but…I don’t want to lose the little bit of color..hahaha…

Thanks for the update….

  +2



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:57 am

It was super lame not being able to vote down a-holes.

We are working on it … but I suspects there is going to be trouble all weekend.



Iam3r Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:25 pm

@_cartman_,
Interesting. I hadn’t actually heard her voice yet. I had expected her to have a deeper voice.

Oh, and as I write, a quote direct from the video, from about 2 min 28 sec mark:
“In order to make an affiliate program work, what you need is traffic, and you need trust. . . . but basically you want to maximize the number of people who are seeing your website and you want to maximize the amount of trust they have in you. If you have those two things–a lot of people who think you are never going to lie to them? Basically you are at the point where you can sell anything.”

And now, from an online dictionary, the definition of a “confidence game”: “Confidence game is an attempt to defraud a person or a group by gaining their confidence. The method is usually adopted to obtain money or property of another person. This act of abusing the confidence of a person is a crime in the U.S.”

–
Truth is powerful.

  +6

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:06 pm

@Iam3r,

You want to analyze these? :)

I just skimmed them [[literally 5 minutes to scrub all 8]], but NO way am I sitting through them…they’re long, what I saw was boring, and in no way funny.

Warning: they will download if opened in IE 9 [[earlier versions I have no clue...I detest IE]] and only play if opened in firefox. If you use FF and want to save them, right click while hovering on the link and hit “save link as”..

https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video001mono.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video002.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video003.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video004.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video005.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video006.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video007.mov
https://s3.amazonaws.com/failproof/Video008.mov

  +3

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:30 am



Behind the Facade said:

Here are two people presenting themselves as knowledgeable, experienced, successful “internet marketers.” Selling high-priced “advice.” And yet, in their own lives:

————————————————————–

Dave Navarro: ok, I have like, a month of money in the bank

Naomi Dunford: More than I got. :)

————————————————————–

WINNER!! ::   +18

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:11 am

@Behind the Facade ::

… and you can too!!

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:41 am



Dave said:

Oh my. Hey Naomi, where are you now? Where are the SpiderBitch defenders?

“I made a fuck ton of money and don’t want to pay tax on it.”

Amazing, even when you admit to criminal activity, you lie like hell, don’t you? Just doing rough numbers, you would have to have made somewhere in the neighborhood of $400k to owe $150k in taxes – without any deductions, CPA fees, etc. So in just a couple of years at $130k/year (if true) you made $400k? Voodoo math. But that’s what all the scammers are good at, eh?

I think I remember commenting a few days ago that it would be fun to watch the spider caught in its own web. I was right, it is fun.

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]



Dale Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:24 am

@Dave, I think the Canadian taxing authority should take Spiderbitch at her word about how much she claims she owed them.

  +3

[Reply]



208-577-6210 Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:23 am

@Dale, I think so too. I don’t know how different the Canadian system is, but HMRC (in the UK) would probably slap a 70-100% penalty on, as well as the actual tax owed. Not only has she deliberately avoided paying in the past, she’s now deliberately covering up her earlier evasion! They should take her for $300k, plus the prison time of course.

  +6

[Reply]



BananaTaco Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:23 pm

Not to worry, Canuckers aren’t as nice as they seem. Nor is their guvernment : ) She’ll get whupped.

  +4

[Reply]



BananaTaco Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:26 pm

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/nvstgtns/lds-eng.html

To report suspected tax evasion in Canada.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:04 am

At least 10 people should file reports … so don’t feel like you shouldn’t do it because it’s already been done.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:53 am



Iam3r said:

Hi,
The B-team exploitation thing is the ickiest part to me. It’s like–in order to move up to the A-team and make the big bucks you have to become fully trained in both being used *and* in using others. So at first it’s just about trying to sell the customer-victim some over-priced bunkem crap. But in order to really get in to the big leagues, you’ll have to do dozens of shady deals with the A-team who will, in their turn, be screwing you over all the way.

But since you will have just been spending the last several months getting used to screwing people over, this won’t feel like the vile awfulness that it actually is. It’ll just feel kinda normal by then.

Truly depraved. And probably exactly the way things work in Hollywood–and in many other business settings besides.

It’s icky. I don’t believe it’s truly new though–it’s only new to the Internet medium where you can get people to pay big $$$ for things that don’t even physically exist.

@SD
I am very curious to know *when* this conversation took place between Naomi and Dave?
I would also be curious to know how you got hold of it though I realize you may not want to answer that one.

Lastly, I’m curious to know if you’ve ever covered Sterling and Jay and their Internet Business Mastery. I listened to them for a while although I never actually bought anything because, as with all these guru types, their prices are ridiculous and they’re clearly hyping the sh*t out of them.

I mean, anyone who thinks Robert Kiyosaki is a good source of business advice has a lot to answer for.

–
And yes, the pesky truth still usually exists somewhere in between the extremes, even when intentional lying is factored in.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:08 am

@Iam3r ::

Good points about B-team exploitation. And this stuff’s not new … it’s a cartel system … been around forever … hiding in plain site all around us.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 2:15 am



987 said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Salty I hope (and believe) you verified this chat a 100 times before this post.

Chats aren’t audios.. Anyone can type. If this is true then these people are… Criminals.

LOSER!! ::   -4

[Reply]



Om Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:59 am

@987 Difficult to do – unless he had unfettered access to the original PC it was kept on, and access to Encase or similar digital forensics software.

It’s conceivable that someone else could have altered the chat to incriminate them if they had a motive to, and changed file timestamps to make it look kosher. I certainly wouldn’t trust an emailed chatlog.

(Not that the majority of readers will care about that. Salty is a tabloid journalist par excellence, and plays his readers like a set of panpipes. )

Those doubts notwithstanding, what strikes me about this is the sheer stupidity of having this conversation in text chat. Why on earth would you incriminate yourself like this?

It reminds me of the scene in The Wire where all the big drug bosses are sitting round talking about dividing up Baltimore, and one of the underlings starts taking minutes.

  +4

[Reply]



Hal (the original Hal) Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:25 am

@Om,

They love to see themselves in pictures and videos.

They love to hear their own voice on audio.

They love to read what they wrote.

So they hoard it all for their self-love fest not ever thinking about the flip side.

Sort of like serial killers keeping victim trophies.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Enlightened Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:38 am

@Hal (the original Hal), A friend of mine got caught up in an email exchange at his workplace. His advise to me after all that was said and done. “two words: ‘call me.’”

  +2

[Reply]



Gv Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:37 am

@Enlightened, Weird how I wrote that but it came through under your signature. I hope it didnt cause any undue grief for you… Sorry.

So… Just to make it clear… Enlightened did NOT say the quote above I did.

If you have an opinion about the statement address them to me. If you don’t like it Enlightened isn’t to be blamed I am.

And, of course, the opposite is true too.

Thanks. Gv.
P.s. It appears, based on Cartmans posts above that there were some server issues yesterday.

  +2

[Reply]



Gv Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:44 am

@Gv, Just to be more clear, this is what I wrote:

“A friend of mine got caught up in an email exchange at his workplace. His advise to me after all that was said and done. “two words: ‘call me.”

  +1



Enlightened Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:54 am

@Hal (the original Hal) & @Om, I think it was gmail chat, they mentioned it above:

Dave Navarro :: ok. I’ll try to keep the computer up and running – if you don’t see me, then can you send me a text message to make my phone ping me? then i’ll know to go to Google chat

* So if it was gmail chat, the conversation (if gotten via email) could have been forwarded to SD without the ability to alter it (I think). But it could be dicey.

  +1

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:08 am

@Enlightened,

Gmail chat will often log and email an entire convo to both recipients. It depends on their settings.

Also, Gmail chats can be dug up. So if the scenario of “leave desktop computer behind” actually happened, the potential sources are obvious.

Whatever the case, there’s no reason to believe SD would alter or make up any of this.

  +6

[Reply]



spideysense Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:37 am

@anonone, After I read this last night I was wondering how Naomi was going to manipulate emotions to get herself out of this one. I think the next story is going to be about editing documents to make her look bad.

  +3

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:09 am

@spideysense,

Or she may be too busy editing her account books. :)

  +2

[Reply]



Frank Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

@anonone, If she wants to claim it’s not accurate and sue SD that would be great. I mean, if it’s not accurate, why wouldn’t she, right? Then of course the server logs would be inspected, and found to be identical.

I have no doubts about this whatsoever. All her other actions, statements, and the video Cartman found build a formidable case against her.

You could probably also anticipate the Canadian tax agency will gather all the relevant info when they look into what’s been said. Then it will all come out in the wash.

The more she spins, the bigger the hole gets. It’s REALLY hard to conceal a hole the size of a crater.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 4:15 am



SpideySenses said:

This also explains why Naomi removed all her content except the death threat content. It’s all incriminating. All of it. Dave may be stupid, but Naomi isn’t.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Om Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:05 am

@SpideySenses,

I disagree. This whole episode smacks of gross stupidity on both sides. How on earth did she think she’d get away with it, if it had gone through? It’s not like she was taking the money cash in hand. There would have been bank records, and for that level of income, bank notification to the IRS.

Screwing up your finances and not being able to pay taxes is one thing. Conspiring to cover it up is quite another.

Re-reading the log (and assuming it is genuine), the impression I get is someone who made a lot of money without really expecting to, and didn’t have the maturity to handle it. The phrase “slippery slope” comes to mind.

  +5

[Reply]



Frank Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:53 pm

@SpideySenses, She isn’t as bright as SHE thinks she is. That site has been saved on many separate computers by now. If anything, it just says “coverup.”

  +5

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 5:45 am



Anon said:

Is there an audio track (please tell me there is, please tell me there is…)

  0

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 6:06 am



Salty New World Order said:

As interesting as this is I can’t wait for the other people who appear in the categories for this post to get their turn in Salty’s spotlight.

  +2

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 6:41 am



Juice said:

Is that a real conversation SD?

“Dave Navarro :: Oh, wow. Spiraling a little bit here, because this is insane and cool and wow and … ok, let me think :-)”

Sounds like a f’kin 5 year old.

  +4

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:21 am

@Juice ::

You quite literally could not make that shit up.

That’s why all this talk about “is it real” is bollux … it’s so fucking real … it’s embarrassingly real. To me it feels more real than most of the audio files on this site.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 7:02 am



Jenny said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

1. If true, this is horrific, and I’m glad it was brought to light. We all need to be more careful about who and what we put our trust in.

2. Since Naomi has already said that people were hacking into her computer and changing things I’m sure she’ll simply say this was one of the things that were hacked and changed and many people will believe her based on the fact that it showed up on the very website she implies hacked her.

3. If this comes directly from Dave’s brother then a lot of people are going to have a problem believing it.

4. Deleting any comments written about Dave’s brother simply on the basis that he’s suffered enough personal tragedy seems hypocritical. He became a public figure of sorts when he created a public website. Also, Dave has suffered the same personal tragedy and I wouldn’t expect him to get a pass simply because of it. I hope you reconsider your decision to delete all speech about Dave’s brother, as it goes so counter to what this website seems to be about, and could make people think that you are protecting him in return for feeding you information. It casts doubt on your ability to be objective and I think that’s necessary in order for people to read and believe this post. And sadly, it’s one that should be read by many people.

5. Thank you for sharing this. No doubt it will be painful for some people to read, but perhaps it will cause us all to be safer in the long run.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Davebo Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:02 am

@Jenny,

I’m assuming he’s not including references to his brother because it’s not relevant.

  +1

[Reply]



Jenny Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:31 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Davebo,

Dave having man-boobs isn’t relevant to his character but it’s still something that’s allowed here. I just think that deleting comments leads to the same sort of questioning that most people had when Naomi closed her comments. If there’s nothing to hide then allow all speech to go through. If the comment isn’t relevant then it’ll get hidden with thumbs-down. Allow the audience to decide and debate in the interest of total transparency.

Just a suggesion. It’s Salty’s house and he’s free to do what he wants. I just know that I didn’t retweet Naomi’s post because without open comments I couldn’t see all sides of the story and it looked suspicious, so rather than follow the sheep mentality I went out looking for answers and found them here. Sadly, I have a hard time retweeting this one as well because if comments are deleted then I have to wonder if there’s something else I don’t know about here.

It’s episodes like these with Naomi and Dave that cause me to look deeper and to expect full transparency from anyone I can fully trust.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



Doctor Mario Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:28 pm

@Jenny :: Salty is not deleting any comments that appear here about Dave.

He is deleting any ANONYMOUS comments about the Navarro family.

He made a comment before, that if someone wants to comment here about the Navarro family, they will need to provide their full name and comment without concealing their identity.

I think anyone can understand why…

WINNER!! ::   +18

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:32 am

@Doctor Mario ::

Exactly.

Anthony put himself :: and his name :: behind that website to try and help his brother. If you want to object to that … put yourself and your name behind it.

Put yourself … and your name … behind the blatant lies of a gutter trash parasite.

@Jenny ::

It casts doubt on your ability to be objective

I’m not objective you reject … I’m openly anti-crime … and I’m openly an advocate for the victims of these kinds of crimes. If you want to hear the psychopath’s side … go watch CNN.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 8:02 am



Juice said:

Sorry to high-jack this thread. Check the video to see an A to Z of ugliness.

The scariest is at 21.30

http://www.expertsindustryassociation.com/conference

  +1

[Reply]



Shit Tornado Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:52 am

@Juice, I got this the other day from Andy Jenkins and was equally sickened. (Also sorry for hijacking)

  +1

[Reply]



Sue Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:14 am

@Juice,

Wow! That’s like a who’s who of salty’s blog.

And I agree about 21:30 being scary. Gives a whole new definition to comb over!

Just gives me the overwhelming desire to have Bubba grab him and Frank and scrub them clean. They look like two guys who’d been living under a bridge somewhere…

  +2

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:25 am

@Juice,
I can’t see the vid.

  0

[Reply]



New here Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:23 am

@Juice,

Just taking a look to the list of “experts” who are part and endorse the “Association” is really scary (see the homepage)

  +1

[Reply]



Donk Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:46 pm

@New here, Geezus, 21:30 is enough to make you puke. We all know ethics are very important to that cat. What is he trying to do with that hair and scruff beard he has going on? Good god…

  0

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:41 am

@Donk, “Good God” cracked me up man!

  0

[Reply]



Halfway Crook Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:51 am

LOL @ Jenkins…what a douchebag that guy is. Fuckin Frank Kern carbon copy wanna be.

  0

[Reply]



Shit storm Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:06 pm

@Juice,

Great share…it’s amazing to me the shit these scammers can say with a straight face.

The idea of an association to give themselves credibility is asinine…here’s why

This blog hasn’t even started getting traffic

This blog hasn’t even begun to recruit helpers in this cause

Anyone who is reading this that works in the biz op, IM info, get rich industry is on NOTICE – doesn’t matter what level you’re on.

you will be called out on all your fraud and all the fraud you willingly sell

If anyone reads this and thinks it’s a small problem you’re not fully informed…the problem is massive

do your homework…ask questions…learn what it is they’re doing…then help us stop them

Tens of millions are being swindled from unsuspecting people and they have no intention on stopping

Indictments is the only goal…these people are thieves…makes no difference if they’re low level affiliates peddling these frauducts or the frauduct creator

stealing is stealing

spread the word about http://www.saltydroid.info

  +3

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 8:13 am



Paul G said:

For a minute there, I thought I was reading “Macbeth”, not the “Ballad of Dave and Naomi” on this page. I think she could’ve talked him into a plot to overthrow the government. Just another example that you can never underestimate the “power of the vagina” to make men do REALLY stupid things! Good job, SD!

  0

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 8:24 am



Maybe I missed it said:

How and from where was this chat log obtained, Salty? Mentions were made of Skype and gchat, but am I then to infer that someone hacked into or otherwise gained unauthorized access to Naomi or Dave’s accounts? It was also suggested (by commenter anonone) that Dave himself may have supplied the chat logs.

Would be great if you could clarify how and from where this log was obtained, as well as if any attempt to verify its contents has been made (re: 987 and Om’s comments).

  -1

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:40 am

@Maybe I missed it, I don’t know how Salty got it. I don’t think he will verify, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Based on reading this blog almost since the start, here’s why:

1) He has multiple sources. The “smoking gun” sources are often audios, because infoproduct scammers habitually record & keep everything (for later products; also as narcissists). So do Google, Yahoo, Skype, etc. (A lot of commenters are saying, “Dave’s brother can’t be trusted!” What about Dave’s wife? What if they handed over the computer? Gave him the password to Dave’s Skype? What if I’m wrong about Google and he has Matt Cutts helping out?)

2) He’s an attorney, so he knows what will and won’t hold up in court. He knows what standards of verifiable proof a gchat needs to meet.

3) He has many people sending him stuff about people they want to see here. Some work on the inside, are worried family, former colleagues… Things don’t appear here until they’re ready.

4) This is the most important one: None of the scammers will go to court to prove he’s wrong. If they do, he gets to look at their books. A quote: “suing me will grant me access to the vast majority of your accounting records, emails, files, letters, etc. If you want the damning info I find in that discovery process to remain private, you’ll have to ask for a protective order and show good cause. You won’t be able to do that … and I’ll fill the world up with uncomfortable truths about you.” From here. It’s almost like playing chicken.

I could be wrong on any of those, since I’m just a reader. Now, some commenters & trolls, like Om above, say “Salty… plays his readers like a set of panpipes,” implying that we’re all unthinking sheep who swoon uncritically at every move, that we apply none of the standards of truth to SD that we call for from the scammers. Untrue, worth not even an eyeroll. You can actually learn a lot of legal thinking here, explicitly & reading between the lines. It’s also an education in how criminals think & work, and about human nature, and protecting yourself. Since it’s all free & at the end of the process people who have believed scammers finally get to wake up and think for themselves, oh, it’s kind of the opposite of what Om’s saying.

Unless Om meant the readers’ panpipes are played in how Salty rolls out the jawdropping scandalous high notes. Yeah, he’s good at that.

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Maybe I missed it Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:15 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking, thanks for the reply. I guess what with everyone talking about the need for evidentiary support, I’m skeptical of anything anyone puts forward as “proof”. I mean, I don’t take text allegedly copied from an email as incontrovertible proof from Dunford, so I can’t really take text allegedly copied from some unspecified chat as proof from Salty, especially when no explanation has been offered and I am sitting here wondering where it all came from and what’s going on.
I trust his judgement in how he will conduct himself and knowing what will hold up in court, but the content posted here (in its present form) isn’t something that I can interpret as proof without allowing myself room for reasonable doubt.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:03 pm

@Maybe I missed it: you have a fair and sensible position.

Like most battles of public opinion, we will likely never get to pore over the primary documents.

But we can extrapolate truth from how ND and DN (and their associates) respond. The suspension of DN’s sites is telling. So’s Dunford’s latest tweet: “@GoodInkInc “You want to get something done, ask a busy person.” (When I was a kid, they replaced “busy person” with “Mormon mother”.)” Huh? Holed up from death threats much?

One more thing: people saying this is a forgery, maybe it is. But it’s HARD to make this stuff up. Which parts seem fake? Why? We have the same evidence for this online chat as we do for Dunford’s income claims. It takes a bigger leap of faith to believe Dunford’s income & death threat claims than Salty’s fraud claims.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:45 am

@Maybe I missed it ::

This post isn’t for people gawking at the Internet melodrama that Naomi spastically created.

I mean I hope you all stay and buy a t-shirt and everything … but it’s not for you.

People close to this thing can this real … insiders can tell it’s real … b-teamers can tell it’s real … a-teamers can tell it’s real … saltydroid readers can tell it’s real.

If you don’t know what’s going on here … then don’t ask stupid questions.

[Reply]



Wtf is wrong with you? Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:34 am

@Maybe I missed it,

Why would salty “out” his source?

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out where this came from, does it? The way I see it ,
There are 3 options. Do the math!

SD’s “proof” has always been spot on and legit, so I seriously doubt that he would
Risk tarnishing his own rep for these 2 pieces of trash.

If the info isn’t true, spidyslut, and Dave the magnificent idiot can file a law suit, right?
What do you think the chances of that happening are? FUCKING ZERO!!!! I would
Be willing to bet almost anything that the fake robot is on his knees praying right now
That Spideyscammer does sue. Can you imagine the info that would be on display then?

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



SimSim Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:36 am

@Wtf is wrong with you?,

I particularly like the way you said:

“FUCKING ZERO!!!”

  +2

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 9:16 am



Rafael Marquez said:

Thank you for posting this Salty. Truly eye opening.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 9:31 am



Joni said:

I had to write about it after it became obvious that her ill-titled call to arms wasn’t about the beaten-down masses of tormented and oppressed women bloggers at all. Funny how we both used the phrase “shit storm” and how apt it was. :)
http://joniverse.com/2395/itty-bitty-shitstorm

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



Cosmic Connie Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:20 am

@Joni, Good for you! I just left a comment on your blog. I would have voted a thumbs-up for your comment here, but the voting function seems to be inactivated. Maybe it’s just my crappy satellite Internet connection, or maybe Salty’s poor overworked site is a little crippled. Anyway, @Joni, your input is very encouraging, particularly in light of some of the other stuff I’ve seen from female bloggers who feel threatened by Naomi’s contrived “enemy” and who are trying to turn this into a misogyny issue.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Dave Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:36 am

@Joni, Nicely done.

  +3

[Reply]



BananaTaco Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:30 pm

@Joni, hey Joni! I shared your post with a lot of people in the ‘community’. Thank god, let the shit fall off where it may. Yours was, by far, the best response to her post (besides Salty Jones : )

  +3

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:00 am

@Joni ::

I guess I’ll just keep waiting for the authorities to contact me about the threats Naomi says she reported. Gosh they sure are slow … they must have stopped caring about mass murders and hate crimes.

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 9:43 am



Naomi-Dunford-CRA-TaxEvasion said:

Canada Revenue Suspected Tax Evasion information must be delivered by mail, phone, or in person.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/nvstgtns/lds-eng.html

Thank you for your interest in CRA’s Enforcement and Disclosures programs. Please contact our offices as follows:

To report suspected tax evasion:

Tel.: 1-866-809-6841 (toll free)
Tel.: 905-984-4830
Fax: 905-984-4829

Mail:
St. Catharines Tax Services Office
Ontario Region Informant Leads Centre
32 Church Street
Post Office Box 3038
St. Catharines ON L2R 3B9

Anyone can call anonymously.

I would suggest all the evidence be carefully packaged and delivered to one of the offices. Just sharing the story might be enough to get things rolling.

I’m a Canadian and I pay my taxes, all of them, a lot of them. It’s not fun.

I really can’t stand when I read stuff like this. Once CRA gets a few complaints or pieces of evidence, she’s pretty much up shit’s creek. They will NEVER leave her alone.

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:06 am

@Naomi-Dunford-CRA-TaxEvasion ::

do it … do it … do it … do it …

robot chanting!!

[Reply]



422 Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:53 pm

@Naomi-Dunford-CRA-TaxEvasion, Done and Done.

  +4

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 10:04 am



Oh Damn said:

And dave just shut down the launch coach for “personal reasons” wooooooowww

go check out his site and see for yourself!

  +6

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:44 am

@Oh Damn,

“This Account Has Been Suspended”

Oh well. :)

  +2

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:45 am

@Oh Damn,

http://www.rockyourday.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

Rock Your Day is also dead {for the time being, at least}

  +2

[Reply]



RT Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 11:52 am

@Oh Damn,

His whole hosting account says suspended: http://thelaunchcoach.com

Somebody is backpedaling.

If he is not a narcissist and is really a good person inside like Salty is implying here in the post … he is feeling like shit right now (take that back – he is feeling like shit no matter what).

He looks like a total dumbass in this exchange.

Scamming is over … if this doesn’t lead to anything that puts him in jail or the crazy house then maybe he will move down a more productive pathway.

If he thinks he can back-peddle and still play the unicorn game then I guess we can keep eating popcorn and enjoy the show.

  +2

[Reply]



anonone Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:03 pm

@RT,

He has just re-written thelaunchcoach.com web page to say that he is closing down his site and giving away everything for free or for whatever people want to donate for it.

a1

  +1

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:18 pm

@anonone,

One last grab at the cash drawer.

“My fake-expert BS is still available. Last chance!

“How will an Internet marketing and launch coach professional like myself go on without the Internets? Nevermind that detail … here’s the list of crap available at my garage sale …”

  +6

[Reply]



ema Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:42 pm

@RT,

If this account is accurate (http://ittybiz.com/sometimes-the-bad-guys-win/), he’s already been involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

  -2

[Reply]



Silver Agave Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:39 pm

@Oh Damn,

Yes, I am on the Rock Your Day email list. Some blogger I read referred him. I never purchased anything, because it wasn’t clear what he was selling. Also because a friend told me if I ever invested money in something like that she’d punch me. Here’s the last email I received, about an hour ago:

I really didn’t expect to send a third email today. My apologies.

If you were to go to the link below, you’d see a message that said “account suspended.”

What that means is that way, way, way more people went to the site than I ever expected, and the server’s allotted bandwidth went “poof” in a heartbeat. In other words, my hosting account’s budgeted pageviews were used up all at once.

I’ll try and get that sorted out. :-)

In the meantime, know that everything’s okay. No more emails today, just keep your eye out and see when it all gets settled.

Dave

==================================
Hey everyone –

Apparently e-junkie has a free download limit of 200 per day and that was reached pretty quickly.

I’ll see what I can do to get a work-around that will allow unlimited downloads for those not wishing to set a price.

I’ll get back to you when that’s done and I have a new link – in the meantime, you can try tomorrow if you’d like.

Thanks –
Dave

==================================
Hello, friends.

I’ve made the decision to close the curtains on The Launch Coach due to personal reasons. It’s time to take a break from the internet for a while.

But I wanted to do something special for you before I go, as a way to express my heartfelt thanks for the years of support and as a way to get my training in the hands of as many people as I can before this site is closed.

At this time, you can have some (or all) of my workshops for whatever you’re in the spirit to pay.

For the next week or so, all my workshops are available on a donation basis.Pay nothing if you want. Pay something if you’re moved to do so. It’s all good. I just want you to get this training.

http://www.thelaunchcoach.com/goodbye-my-friends

The downloads will still be accessible even after the rest of the website and the workshop sales pages are be taken down. So rest assured that even when The Launch Coach closes its doors, you’ll still have access to the content you pick up today.

To all the wonderful people who have helped me build a brand that helped businesses around the world, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Thanks for everything – it’s been one hell of a ride.

Always yours,

Dave Navarro

If you no longer wish to receive our emails, click the link below:
Unsubscribe
3505 Birkwood Ct Raleigh, North Carolina 27616 United States (919) 889-8967

  +1

[Reply]



Sunshine Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:50 pm

@Silver Agave,

“Always yours” – Funny, that’s just what he said to his wife:

http://letterstodavenavarro.com/dave-remember-your-inscription-to-alison

  0

[Reply]



Sunshine Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:04 pm

@Sunshine,

Ack… I Didn’t write that.

  0

[Reply]



Anon Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:52 pm

@Silver Agave,

“Always yours” sounds familiar: http://letterstodavenavarro.com/dave-remember-your-inscription-to-alison

  +2

[Reply]



Joni Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:51 am

@Anon: No, it’s actually plausible that you can see an Account Suspended for exceeding monthly bandwidth. It depends on the web host. They’ll just shut your account down until you pay for the overage or purchase a larger package. Anything that violates their TOS, such as overuse/abuse of server resources, and of course not paying the bill. :)

  +2

[Reply]



Joe Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:08 pm

@Silver Agave, “Account suspended” is something I’ve seen on web sites where the hosting bill was not paid. When a web site gets too much traffic, the customary message is “Temporarily Unavailable” or similar. I don’t think I believe Naomi’s explanation.

  0

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:28 pm

@Joe,

It sounds fishy to me too.

  0

[Reply]



Gv Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:00 am

@Silver Agave, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot kinda BS URL is this:
http://www.thelaunchcoacxxxxxh.com/goodbye-my-friends

“goodbye-my-friends”????

What? Is he expecting a chorus of “NO….WAIT…STOP…COME BACK…we can’t play without your ball!!!”

I mean get real.

  +2

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:41 pm

@Oh Damn,

I was clicking through the website when it hit me …

“What about all the people that actually PAID for this stuff?”

It’s classic Internet marketing: sell something for $1997 and then, next week, have it as a FREE BONUS for people buying your buddy’s product

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 11:38 am



Jaime said:

I wonder if Naomi Dunford is enjoying her email today as much as usual. Or maybe she’s already gotten a VA to sift through it all and only forward the happy messages …

Riiiight.

  +5

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 11:58 am



BananaTaco said:

I feel really bad for the kids in this situation, because whatever these two rats are doing is going to affect them their whole lives. It’s not your fault kids!

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 12:27 pm



SpideySenses said:

The best thing Dave Navarro could do right now is to cut off times with Naomi and walk away. Say he was manipulated. Even if he doesn’t go back home, he needs to walk away from Naomi to save himself.

  +6

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 12:34 pm

@SpideySenses,

I have no evidence, but I bet that he already has.

That is kinda why I think he was the source of the chat transcript.

a1

  +1

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 12:28 pm



Wait said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Let’s put this into perspective.

Dave Navarro has some serious concerns regarding family members who may or may not be out to get him (easily proved).

Dave may or may not have left his family due to ultra-religious fanaticism.

Dave may or may not be fearful of his life and therefore keeping low profile.

Naomi Dunford may or may not be having an affair with Dave Navarro (not as easily proved and so far is speculation, but if this conversation is true, it sounds like they were not).

The two had a discussion about her giving him his company and him paying her for it through royalties (makes him in no way an accomplice to anything, especially since said transaction never took place) in which she reveals that the reason she wants to do it is to keep from paying taxes.

The deal never took place. It was all a conversation.

Many people HAVE benefitted from Dave and Naomi’s work, and people now have successful businesses because of Naomi’s consultations.

It sounds like Naomi didn’t want to pay taxes but this is no proof that she *didn’t* pay taxes. This is just a conversation. It may or may not be proof that at one time Naomi considered not paying taxes.

If this conversation did take place, it also indicates that both Allison and Jamie were privy to it. Allison, the one Salty Droid has been so concerned about this whole time, the Godly one.

If you have ever been in a real-life marketing staff meeting, this kind of conversation takes place all of the time (minus the transfer of the business stuff). It’s complicated if you aren’t familiar with it.

I’ve said all of this to ask this question … does this deserve the lynching that this group has given and the potential death threats to her life? I see this as making a mountain out of a mole hill.

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]



Deuce Monkey Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:11 pm

@Wait,

“I’ve said all of this to ask this question … does this deserve the lynching that this group has given and the potential death threats to her life? I see this as making a mountain out of a mole hill.”

Of course this woman doesn’t deserve death threats which I’m pretty sure no one has done. I don’t know though. stupid question.

sometimes a mountain needs to be made out of a mole hill… whatever the f that means.

  +4

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:19 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Deuce Monkey, so who will benefit from all of this? just curious.

LOSER!! ::   -9

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Deuce Monkey, my last post was deleted. I’ll try again.

Who will benefit from this? just curious.

LOSER!! ::   -9

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:35 pm

@Wait, you wrote: “Many people HAVE benefitted from Dave and Naomi’s work, and people now have successful businesses because of Naomi’s consultations.”

Name them.

You can’t.

  +6

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:38 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking, mine and several others that I know personally, but don’t think it would be in our best interest to post our personal information here. There’s something shady about all of this information gathering.

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:40 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Wait, I still wonder who will benefit from this? Who are you saving?

LOSER!! ::   -9

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:44 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Again, just curious. Please don’t blast me….

I’ve been following this for a couple of days because I am a customer of hers and I’ve met others who have been customers of hers and I was expecting to see how I got scammed. This was somewhat less than I expected.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:54 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

I don’t know why my posts are disappearing and reappearing and why my name changes to anonymous. Either the site is having problems with traffic, or it is being moderated somehow in some way that I don’t understand. If moderation, I’m sure it is for a good reason.

LOSER!! ::   -7



Deuce Monkey Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:54 pm

@Wait,

I only know that Naomi won’t benefit from this. Go start your own blog where you benefit others.

  +6

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 1:58 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Deuce Monkey, what did I do to deserve that?

LOSER!! ::   -10



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:01 pm

@Wait,

Oh, I’ll bite on this one.

People like Debbie: http://saltydroid.info/scamming-two-debbies/

People who are susceptible to being scammed out of their money by greedy, psychopathic narcissists selling Steal Underpants=Make Profit! schemes, blanketed in language that sounds business-y.

Think those people deserve it? Because they’re stupid? Try again, they’re not stupid. They have been hoodwinked, with their strengths (hope,generosity, wanting to believe good things happen to good people including themselves) having been manipulated. That’s what these criminals do. And if you want to victim blame or declare that these people purchased a product at market rate, you need to read up a little more on how these ponzi schemes work. Otherwise you’re complicit with what these people do. Which is rob people.

tl;dr version- Humanity benefits when things like this are spotlighted. Which might not be quantifiable in market/sales reports, but when humanity wins, we all win.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:12 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

I’m not making the connection between not paying taxes and scamming people out of money. People who sell actual products on the web do the same thing. I guess I need it spelled out for me. I’m just not seeing it.

LOSER!! ::   -8



Silver Agave Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:23 pm

@Wait-

(I don’t why my last comment posted as anonymous.The site’s gotten kind of wonky- this comment tried to have me posting as Dr Mario, the last one tried to have me commenting as Wait.)

Not paying taxes is scamming everyone. I’m not going to get into another argument this week with a libertarian.

  +5



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:33 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

^ not a libertarian. I agree that failure to pay taxes is bad, but soooooooooooo many successful people, especially politicians do it, and continue to run a successful business or campaign. I don’t prefer to buy from someone who doesn’t pay taxes, but I also don’t consider that person a scam artist. And, again, this was only a conversation. I’m wondering if this is it or if there is more coming? Where is salty droid?

LOSER!! ::   -8



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:41 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

For example, Wesley Snipes didn’t pay his taxes but I would still go see one of his movies. If I cared about Willie Nelson, the fact that he didn’t pay his taxes wouldn’t stop me from going to one of his concerts (unless he was in jail for it). Marc Anthony didn’t pay his taxes either and he’s still raking in the money. Just some context. I probably see this a little differently because I am standing farther away from it than you are, or maybe I’m closer to it. I don’t know. Either way it looks different to me than it does to you. I’m not criticizing, just trying to show another opinion.

LOSER!! ::   -8



Dale Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:50 am

@Wait said:

“I agree that failure to pay taxes is bad, but soooooooooooo many successful people, especially politicians do it”

“Marc Anthony didn’t pay his taxes either and he’s still raking in the money.”

What utter bullshit. Let’s take a look at that.

You momentarily feigned agreement that a crime is uh, “bad” and then you attempted to justify it with the classic ["that's not what actually I think, this is what I really think" transition]…”BUT”…followed by examples of people who have been “bad” and yet, because they were able to make money, their being “bad” is “no biggy.” (YES, that’s what you did.)

Your idea of “successful” is in tune with people who think that bad behavior is ok if it doesn’t keep them from the money. Those people number very highly in the sociopath camp. That’s also a common denominator among “Internet Marketing” scammers.

I conclude, based on this, along with your consistent glossing over of the many well-articulated and highly persuasive replies that others have made here, that you are either a lost cause or an agenda-driven troll.

I’d put the odds at .01% and 99.99%, respectively.

  +2



NotsoFast Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:00 am

@, I don’t think it’s because they were hoodwinked. Some people are just dumber than others.

  0



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:13 pm

@Wait, you got scammed because you paid someone to tell you to set up a blog/do basic SEO/or whatever she told you; you could have found better info for free in libraries and online. Heck, Google has a free PDF that contains everything in her SEO School, with more timely, more effective suggestions too.

But the real scam here is how Dunford’s scamming Navarro. She’s barely got it together at all, but Navarro is begging for scraps. Would “The Launch Coach” have made any sales if his bio said, “I’m a project manager at Lockheed Martin who desperately wants to quit, but I still can’t get this launch thing together enough to hit the red button.” Would Dunford ever have made a dime without wannabes like Navarro buying into the Ponzi scheme?

No offense, but your saying “I benefited and so did people I know” is hard to buy. I get that you don’t want to hurt a real business by dispaying it here, but don’t expect people to buy vague claims. (Meet halfway: tell how she helped you as detailed as you can and give numbers, before & after. I’ve never seen anyone do even that.)

At best you weren’t marketing much before and started to pay a little attention to it. That shouldn’t have cost her outrageous fees– it’s not rocket science. I don’t disparage your business– which I suspect you already had, and operates far outside the IM/consulting/coaching “industry”– so much as disparage Dunford’s bizopp claims that she has letter after letter from people who started at zero and quit their jobs thanks to the income she taught them to earn.

She can’t even get Dave to that point!

Also, I’m not information gathering when I ask for the proof. The FTC REQUIRES bizopp sellers to provide 10 contact info of past purchases. It’s not coming from her or any IM guru, so when people say they’re succeeding in the comments, it’s fair to ask.

People protest, oh, IttyBiz isn’t bizopp, it’s marketing advice. But:

*When it costs more than $500 and you expect to make that money back from doing what it says, it’s bizopp.

*When you are selling not to established, registered business but to stay-at-home moms, hobbyists, and cubicle drones, it’s bizopp.

*When the sales language and promises made by Dunford and her lot like Frank Kern, Eben Pagan, Teaching Sells, Clay Collins, James Chartrand, etc etc, are all about starting a business, living the dream, and quitting your job– that’s bizopp.

I’ve never since bizopp that’s not a scam. (Funny how Brian Clark has tried to reposition Copyblogger as a “software company.”)

Unrelated, but the posts are seemingly appearing & disappearing due to crushing traffic. The hosting here is donated by a free-speech nonprofit with limited resources and an important mission. Because you won’t read about this stuff anywhere else.

WINNER!! ::   +14

[Reply]



Silver Agave Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:30 pm

@Slowly Waking,

Thanks for explaining that in a way that I could not.

  +3

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking, yes, I could have gotten most of the information online for free (and I spent plenty of time gathering information before becoming a customer of hers) but not in one place and not in the limited amount of time I had. I knew I could but I didn’t want to because I didn’t have the time, so because I could afford it and for the convenience it offered, I paid her for it and I benefited from it. Everyone can grow their own apples, but not many want to take the time to do so. Consulting pays good money for that very reason.

She didn’t teach me how or advise me to pretend to be an expert at something I’m not. I don’t mind if you don’t believe me when I say I benefited. I wasn’t offering that for consideration of truth, simply as a factor in why I am so curious. It doesn’t matter to me if you believe me. Again, I won’t make this about me.

I do very much appreciate your detailed post and the way you described everything. You seem more credible than others because of it.

Finally, affiliate marketing is not the same as ponzi-schemes. I don’t think you said this, though. So maybe I’ll go find that one, or maybe not. I don’t think I’m going to get my answer. I still don’t see how what salty droid posted has anything to do with her value as a consultant. Again, I don’t like that she felt she couldn’t or wouldn’t pay her taxes, but that doesn’t qualify as reason enough for all of this grandstanding by this site, or the potential harm it has caused.

LOSER!! ::   -4

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:00 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Oh, crap, _cartman_, I have your email address! Yikes, indeed!

Just wanted to add that I am about to head to a funeral, so I won’t be answering any more questions for now but I’ll try to sign back on later. I’ll be honest and respectful as long as everyone else is.

LOSER!! ::   -8



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:13 pm

Okay new rule…anyone who gets my email…has to send me holiday cards… :)

Just kidding…don’t worry….half the world has my email….

  +5



Bonnie Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:37 pm

@Wait,

“Again, I won’t make this about me”

Now you’re starting to sound like Naomi.

WINNER!! ::   +7



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:10 pm

@Wait,

The VAST majority of their “teaching” is untested, unverifiable bullshit.

They also say that bs from one market applies universally. Any true marketer knows that’s nonsense.

The simple fact is that most everything Naomi and Dave teach is hearsay, guesswork, and second-hand experiences. ALL the fucking money is made selling hopes and dreams!

They sell YOU the customer to go apply their nonsense to “other markets”. 99.99% of the customers FAIL because it doesn’t work. The .01% that earn any money do so by following the pattern of selling bullshit.

WINNER!! ::   +13



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:28 pm

@Wait, to start, you mentioned below that you do WordPress design professionally; here you say Dunford helped you with the SEO & design of your site. That raised my eyebrow.

Also, below you said to Enlightened, “I hate that you had that experience but I feel that isn’t characteristic of her customer’s experiences. I don’t think I would have done that in the first place.” Maybe not, but you’ll kick someone who’s down and trying to deal with a major mistake openly in the comments? Yet you have no idea what her customers’ typical experiences are. Certainly not from Dunford, who would never give a shred of evidence of her “successful clients” in the IttyBiz 1000 salespitch, or comply with FTC regulations because she’s “not a details person.” You also don’t provide any specifics, as you “don’t want to make this about me.” Oh, it’s not; it’s about Enlightened and people with the same experience s/he’s had. They far outnumber you. If you’re real, which I don’t believe. I mean, if I ask for specifics, at least make some up! “no, i’m too ‘umble, it’s not about me”

Now, the first paragraph of your response above sounds like gurus’ pat rationalization for charging $600/hour repeating stuff anyone can find for free, “because they’re paying for the convenience of you finding it!” If true, librarians would be billionaires.

The second paragraph is waffle.

In your comment below, your description of local chamber-of-commerce meetings, yeah, I’ve done those too. Cool story.

On Ponzi schemes: affiliate marketing’s not a Ponzi scheme. (It’ll die out when all states tax it, and it’s a lousy business model when commissions get cut; but see my comment about Bonobos elsewhere on the page.) The Ponzi scheme is selling advice on making money online to people who turn around and try to make money online using what their teachers know how to do, which is scam people selling lousy make-money-online advice. Dave bought into that Ponzi scheme– Naomi would have been in Dave’s shoes, flaming out after buying Frank Kern’s Mass Control for $2 grand, if she hadn’t found Dave and people like him to sell her (shorter, cheaper) Online Business School to, and then turned them into her own affiliates as she went up the IM scammer ladder. Older posts on this site outline how the Syndicate coordinated their launches and prices (which is illegal) based on the understanding that the MMO market has a churn every six months to a year, when new customers get suckered in as older customers give up. Every “make money online” course, every SEO course, every traffic stent course, is a rehash of an older course. Partially because nothing’s new under the sun, partially because most customers never see the rehash. The ones who do are too beaten-down by cult tactics and silence to ask for the refund. (That’s one reason gurus say “take massive action!” Because they know customers who fail implementing their fraudulent advice will blame themselves when it doesn’t work.)

Anyway, because you offer no specifics, and because of your responses below, I think you’re having a good time trolling with kid gloves on, for a change of pace. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to explain for the lurkers.

WINNER!! ::   +16



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

@Wait,

It sounds like Naomi didn’t want to pay taxes but this is no proof that she *didn’t* pay taxes. This is just a conversation. It may or may not be proof that at one time Naomi considered not paying taxes.

Not for us to prove, that is the CRA’s responsibility…she made the claim, and she either paid or did not pay taxes…how the CRA views her conspiring to commit fraud [[that's a charge under the Criminal Code of Canada...her issue...she's Canadian]] …

does this deserve …[[sneep]]… the potential death threats to her life? I see this as making a mountain out of a mole hill.

No she doesn’t; that said, did you see death threats? Hold up…you see what as making a mountain….her claiming threats, or you claiming that the threats are real?

FACT…

When push came to prove, she showed nothing! She quoted NOTHING! NOTHING!…in Naomi’s second post she MUTED the threats significantly and paraphrased them [[you know...the death threats...the issue that the post revolved around]]…and posted another email as “proof” that those threats existed, and were “invoked”….and used someone else’s tragedy to claim victimization for herself…

Now stop insulting people, and if you believe in the threats contact the appropriate Authorities, or shut up. I’m not going to debate something that is not even directly quoted…

WINNER!! ::   +17

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:26 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@_cartman_, I agree that it is nothing for you to prove and I’m not asking for proof of whether or not she paid her taxes. I am sorry if you misunderstood, but I referred to the threats as “potential” death threats.

“No she doesn’t; that said, did you see death threats? Hold up…you see what as making a mountain….her claiming threats, or you claiming that the threats are real?”

I know nothing about the threats. I only wanted clarification of what you say she’s done, because like I said, I have more of an interest than most of you here.

LOSER!! ::   -12

[Reply]



KG Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:39 pm

@Wait,

(Yikes. Salty, I think you’ve gotta fix your reply button because when I went on to comment, cartman’s name came on with his email address. I don’t think you want that).

Anyway, Wait. I was wondering how you can say you have benefited from ND’s material, then take a neutral position on these issues. You write: ” does this deserve the lynching that this group has given …”. Perhaps not a lynching, but how to you reconcile buying a product from this person, and then reading what she thinks of you as a customer?

I’m curious about that paradox.

  +6

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:45 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@KG, if you are used to her style, you would know that is her personality and you would understand why I’m not offended. I imagine it’s the same here. She will tell you straight up she doesn’t care and she would say it on her blog or over the phone. I don’t have to be loved by the grocery store owner I buy oranges from either.

LOSER!! ::   -11

[Reply]



Enlightened (Formerly Confused) Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:18 pm

@Wait, & the others – I have made money off of the teachings they both put out – the material is useful – but the way I made the money is based off uneducated tactics and emulating success I never truly had – that’s what I was taught to do and that’s wrong.

I never felt good about it and it caused me to feel lost the entire time. So even though the material may be useful to people and help them make money – are they making money the right way? Are they emulating success they don’t even have in order to sell people unicorns? Are they going in circles trying to be like the A-team?

Because I was and it sucks. And now I’m more lost than ever and I wasted years – and thousands – trying to find success that was never really there.

WINNER!! ::   +12



KG Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:37 pm

@Wait,

If a grocery store owner treated me like dirt, I would want to give my money to another grocery store owner who had nice oranges and respected her customers.

I can understand “personality”, and a way of communicating that is over the top that some people like. Salty for example.

If you can read the above interchange between ND and DN (assuming that it is true), and take away the excuse as to it being “her style”, then it is apparent that you cannot clearly see that she doesn’t give a shit about you, about her customers, about following the law, about the Canadian government, etc. If you can read that, and not clearly see a narcissistic person, then I wonder what you actually got out of the product you purchased from her.

Are you making money from it? in the 10 – 50K range? over 100K? Are you a better human being because of what you bought? What have you learned from this person that has directly improved the quality of your life or the life of those you love?

Truly, I’m just curious.

WINNER!! ::   +8



SpideySenses Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:39 pm

@Wait, You said “. She will tell you straight up she doesn’t care and she would say it on her blog or over the phone. I don’t have to be loved by the grocery store owner I buy oranges from either.”

If she didn’t care she wouldn’t have posted her death threat and Dave Navarro sob stories on her blog. She does care. She’s scared and she cares a lot.

  +3



Wait Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:54 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

I’m trying to reply and I just can’t because of site issues. @spideysenses, you have a limited experience with her so there’s no way you can understand. @bananataco, you insulted me so I’m not responding to you. I haven’t insulted anyone, so at the least, you could respect that. @enlightened, you and I had very different businesses apparently. I hate that you had that experience but I feel that isn’t characteristic of her customer’s experiences. I don’t think I would have done that in the first place.

In my city, we have a very closely knit group of social media players. We have monthly lunches and we meet for drinks every two weeks. We share our experiences and we use each other’s “pull” to meet new customers. Same thing happens in the business world, such as chamber of commerce meetings. Naomi did the same for me. She helped me tweak my blog, my style of writing, suggested social media etiquette, improved the SEO of my blog, helped me set a price for my services (I do wordpress design and tutorials). If one of them refers a customer to me, they get a small percentage of that profit, because I otherwise would not have that customer. Pretty standard stuff. No, I don’t make gobs of money, but yes, I pay my taxes. And I am doing something I like to do.

I don’t doubt that Naomi was tired of Ittybiz. I got tired of my previous job, but I didn’t hate the customers . I just had bigger aspirations and it sounds like she did, too. Another victim to all of this grandstanding.

LOSER!! ::   -10



Grover Lembeck Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:26 pm

@Wait,

It isn’t even that she didn’t pay her taxes, it’s that she is clearly attempting to transfer the entire tax bill onto Dave’s shoulders, while acting like she’s doing him a favor.

I don’t do business with people who have contempt for their customers, either. Sullen or somewhat obnoxious, personalty wise, I can handle, but she steps way over that line.

Your posts strike me as being very similar to earlier attempts to change the subject- you’re trying to make it about taxes and personality, when it’s about scamming people and taking advantage of the vulnerable.

I also have to add, after reading 20-30 posts on her blog, I don’t think I’d care to do business with anyone who thinks that it’s filled with useful advice. It mostly seems to be advice on how to be a creep.

WINNER!! ::   +14



also waiting Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:56 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

I’m just going to speak up in support of what “wait” is saying. I’ve been a long-term reader of Ittybiz and Dave’s site, I’ve bought a few of their cheaper products and I was signed up to the Speakeasy for a while. I too am here because I’m curious about the way in which I’m supposed to have been scammed, and find the “evidence” posted here entirely underwhelming.

No, I don’t approve of what they’re discussing, and I find the way that Naomi’s last two posts are written sensationalist and OTT – but that’s what she always did – dramatise her own circumstances to illustrate the points she was making. At heart I think that’s the problem – she’s a writer, not a businesswoman. And clearly that’s got her into trouble. I’m still not persuaded that she’s evil, though. Someone said here something like “she made a shit-ton of money she didn’t expect to, and didn’t handle it well” – my guess is that hits the nail smack on the head.

None of this affects the value of the products (hers or Dave’s) though – the advice in them is sound and has been helpful to me and others. The information was sometimes presented in a tongue-in-cheek, somewhat shambolic low-tech way, sure – but the content was good. Many people I think related to the home-spun nature of it all, oddly enough.

Sure, you can get the information cheaper or free elsewhere (lots of it on – yes – Copyblogger) – you can also pay ten times the price. People *choose* to buy from her because they like her (yes, really) not because she forces them to. They enjoy the larger-than-life character she portrays on the site, just as people seem to enjoy saltydroid – which personally I don’t.

I also agree absolutely with “wait” that many of the things she says are tongue-in-cheek. Just as a trivial example, her “USP” is “internet marketing advice from a woman who swears a lot”. Except, when you listen to the Speakeasy calls, she doesn’t. The droid is nothing like his online persona – Noami is closer but still not actually the character she portrays.

All the personal stuff is very sad and hugely complicated, but not relevant. And for what it’s worth, I think saltydroid is off with his target of the whole “Third Tribe” – they make it clear over and over that the ideas they are suggesting *aren’t* some kind of magic formula. They’re hard work, they’re slow, they require a great product and you have to be a decent person about it. But they *can* work, and they *have* worked for plenty of people.

So – yes, Dave and Naomi blew it, one way or another, and this whole fiasco is making damn sure they have no chance to fix things. But I still don’t see where there was a scam, or how the products they sell/sold are affected.

LOSER!! ::   -5



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:23 pm

@also waiting ::

I too am here because I’m curious about the way in which I’m supposed to have been scammed, and find the “evidence” posted here entirely underwhelming.

That sounds like a personal problem. Maybe you should consider the possibility that your ignorance of the Interent is going to make it hard for you to compete against people who aren’t ignorant.



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:50 pm

@also waiting, well, if she’s a writer and not a businesswoman, but portrays herself as a businesswoman and sells business advice, isn’t that fraud?

Like I said above, this is mainly about Navarro getting scammed. I’m horrified at the gulf between Navarro’s public face and his actual situation shown here, and the callousness with which Dunford tries to dump her tax problem on his head.

But I think the crux of your objection is here: “None of this affects the value of the products (hers or Dave’s) though – the advice in them is sound and has been helpful to me and others… the content was good.” Aren’t all students above average? Isn’t every driver a safe driver? We tend to judge people we know (esp. ourselves) gently. IM scams like Dunford’s use blogs and the intimacy of the internet to make them feel like your friends, and then charge outrageous prices for shoddy products and services. We don’t mind, because we feel like part of the club. “Maybe she’ll tweet my web site if I don’t ask for a refund, even though I already knew everything in Online Business School!” I’ve read comments similar to yours in the last few days, and none have offered specifics on how her products have benefited you. So: what was the increase in your profits? ROI based on purchase price? Or did she just give some generalized suggests and make you laugh a little? Did any of your friends quit their full-time jobs? What are their business models, expenses, profits?

Look, the whole IM-MMO market is based on ideas stolen from direct mail advertising. In that field, once you’ve read Claude Hopkins’ Scientific Advertising and John Caples’ Tested Advertising Methods, you know all there is to know. Copyblogger’s posts (which I hold my nose at, how many lists of 10 stupid things and vacuous comments can you stand?) are all variations on themes in those two books. The rest is hot air. Nobody can justify charging for “business advice” spun from those books– and nobody legit is actually charging a few hundred bucks to help people start real businesses because real business is hard.

I think you’re using a dangerous low standard of value in evaluating her work. At the end of your comment, you sound like you were paying mainly for her personality and outrageous style. Fine, but that’s different than quitting your job and making Internet monies. It’s also a waste of cash.

“Many people I think related to the home-spun nature of it all, oddly enough.”

That’s the danger. It makes the MMO scam accessible to people who would normally be immune.

WINNER!! ::   +19



also waiting Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:44 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking,

To my knowledge Naomi never claimed to be an expert business coach – she claims to offer internet marketing advice with swearing and stories about hookers. The only place where I feel short-changed is on the swearing, but it’s not a deal-breaker for me.

I don’t know if the way she portrays herself is fraud, I’m not a legal expert. For me the question is, “do the products do what they say on the tin” – and the answer is categorically Yes.

So as requested, some specifics:

I gave up my day-job, a couple of years ago – inspired to some degree by Naomi and others – but not to make money primarily from a website, that’s something new I’m trying this year.

I spent maybe $100 on a few months membership of Naomi’s Speakeasy, during which I downloaded and listened to about 20 hours of audio content. I also spent $50 on their “How To Launch” eBook.

More significantly, I’ve been signed up to the Third Tribe this year – 8 months of $50. This membership has been incredibly useful to me – I literally wouldn’t have succeeded at marketing my product without it. Hours and hours more of useful content and advice via forums, Q&A calls etc.

Specific areas I got help with were: launch strategies, “white-hat” methods of building an email list, techniques for publicising and promoting my product, sales page design and – yes – SEO. Which reminds me, I’ve been using “Scribe”, too – that’s $30 a month for a year, so another $360.

So, that’s a total outlay of $910, if I added it up right. I recently launched my first product (an eBook and video, but *not* about making money online !) and sold $5000 worth in two weeks, of which I paid out $2000 in affiliate fees. This was just to my email list, I’m hoping it will sell steadily once it’s live on the main site.

I’m very happy with that result – I have plans for several more related products in the future, and am confident that over time they’ll generate a steady income stream from my site, especially as I build the traffic.

And, I’m absolutely confident that the methods I’ve used (and was recommended to use) are ethical, and offer great value. I’ve had a great reaction from people who’ve bought the products, and my return rate is 2%, at this point.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen “get rich quick” schemes online that turn my stomach, but that’s not what Naomi and the “Third Tribe” are doing – exactly the opposite in fact, that’s the whole point.

LOSER!! ::   -8



SD Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:14 pm

@also waiting ::

Hi … thanks for nothing. Link to your money making site … or shut your cake hole. I know someone else requested some general deets … but I reject them. Link to your site … or shut your cake hole.

This whole fucking scam is about false testimonials … and I won’t have them here. If you don’t link to your site … then you are liar.

And btw :: if you think Naomi’s “advice” was helpful or useful … then you should start looking for another job because you are an Internet n00b who can look forward to nothing but failure.



Slowly Waiting Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:43 pm

@also waiting, this nesting on this thread’s getting unworkable. If you want to continue it, best to start a new, unnested comment below. But I’m starting to repeat myself, so I kind of just want to hear Salty’s next bit.

Thank you for the specific numbers. You still don’t say what exactly you do, though, just that it’s not making money from a website? But you’re doing launches? How does that work?

Also, what’s your business structure? LLC, S-Corp, C-Corp? Don’t give us your EIN, though.

More importantly, what’s your market? Not MMO. But what is it– barbeque, entertaining, travel, home decorating, the ever-popular dog training? Gurus always claim some precious “niches” they guard like a magic ring, but there’s only a few niches out there. One of the problems with what Dunford sold (esp. in Online Business School) is that very, very few markets support “infomarketing.” The ones that do require specialist knowledge, sometimes specialist degrees and certifications. Most people don’t have these, and scammers of course frown on education. Do you have these kinds of qualifications, and do they apply to your business? You sold a PDF and a video– for how much? Download only? How many customers did you have? One of very unethical guru techniques is to charge higher prices in order to maximize profits. I’ve heard from multiple gurus about higher *perceived* value. Adding a video often makes it look like you’re offering more value. But is your video some cheap shit thing you threw together on your iPhone, or did you hire a professional crew and editor? Is the video actually a more efficient way of learning than reading a manual? For instance, if you’ve seen Ikea’s assembly manuals, they’re about as simple as can be– because that provides the best user experience. Because those are shades of ethics, and good business practice.

You wrote: “I’m absolutely confident that the methods I’ve used (and was recommended to use) are ethical, and offer great value.”

So you’re a registered business, paying taxes at federal, state, and local levels, fairly paying people who do work for you, and you have all the legally required documents and disclaimers in place on your web site? Your address is in your emails? Good, because those are things Dunford et al. tend to leave out. Remember what I said about perceived value. And consider that the lines of ethics are very, very blurry– perhaps you do use them ethically, but your Third Tribe teachers have not. Also, the price tag you quote seems terribly high to me, especially considering it’s just “information” and not things tailored to your specific situation. How would $900 of personally-tailor consulting, from a person in your community, redefine your standards for “value?” And you realize that their continuity programs are set up for their bottom line most of all. Scribe, for instance, is weak sauce after you do this for on-page (PDF). But it’s awfully nice to have that money coming in at Copyblogger every month.

For some reason you’re perceiving what they offered you as high value, when everything you’ve implemented that has worked for you (if you’re being straight, it’s still not specific enough for me to say because what you’ve written sounds like an affiliate marketing pitch, or something from freshman comp) is on the net for free, if only you’d found the right sites instead of Third Tribe sites. And this…

“Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen “get rich quick” schemes online that turn my stomach, but that’s not what Naomi and the “Third Tribe” are doing – exactly the opposite in fact, that’s the whole point.”

…is so wrong. Yeah, they say they do it differently than some of the older folk, and like to point it out: making fun of the yellow highlighter and the bullet points and the headlines. But there’s no difference in Dunford, Kern, or any of the B- and C-teamers. They put a dimestore Valley sheen on old-school infoscamming.

Read some more of this site. I’d point you where to look, but you’re here already, and I don’t want to charge you $600/hour finding it for you.

WINNER!! ::   +8



also waiting Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 3:57 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD,

Suit yourself. 

I reject your “evidence” because you haven’t quoted a source. There’s no reason for me to reject it – it’s entirely plausible that it’s legitimate, just as my figures above are perfectly plausible.

There’d be no point linking to my site, the product isn’t available from it yet, I only sold it to my email list so far. I could email you screen grabs of PayPal accounts, but you’d say I faked them.

And yes, absolutely – when I started my site 3 years ago I was a complete noob about blogging, writing and making money online. I started searching for info, and found Copyblogger, and now here I am, fully confident that blogging is a great way to supplement my income.

Naomi and Dave’s products did exactly what I paid for – got me past being a noob and on the road to being successful. And that’s why this “campaign” of yours is doomed – you won’t find the evidence of sleaze and corruption you think you will, because it isn’t there.

Lastly, thanks for the name-calling and troll tactics in reply to a polite, quiet reply – it helps confirm my first impressions of you. Makes me wonder if you aren’t really closer to your online persona than you’d like to believe.

LOSER!! ::   -12



Carol Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:12 am

“@Wait,” You are so full of lies and bullshit, people can smell the odor over the internet.

“and now here I am, fully confident that blogging is a great way to supplement my income.”

Yeah, rrrright. Reading your your comments, it’s easy to see that you are just another Naomi-troll, here only to promote your deceptive spiderbitch.

To be clear: you are a lying, devious dirtbag, here ONLY to promote and cover up for your deceptive fiend, the spiderbitch.

This foolish comment of yours was hilariously arrogant, too:

“And that’s why this “campaign” of yours is doomed – you won’t find the evidence of sleaze and corruption you think you will, because it isn’t there.”

The WORLD has already found the truth, troll. It’s too late. The spider is out of the bag.

And no mere “customer” could with any authority, nor would they, go out on a such a ridiculous limb for a vendor, and certainly not to the absolutely manic extent you have. Liar!

You are beyond pathetic, and absolute scum.

  +3



_cartman_ Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:07 pm

@KG,

hahaha…if you would have gotten it sooner you could have sold it :)

  +3

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:03 am

If this promotion only went out to Also Waiting’s own “‘white-hat’” email list, why was $2000 in affiliate fees paid out? And to whom?

  +4



Carol Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:20 am

@Lanna, Good point. “@Also Waiting” is obviously lying. It doesn’t add up. Funny how the few trolls who tried to defend their spider are caught lying. Obviously, they learned how to do ONE thing from the spider: LIE. Sickening.

  +4



also waiting Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 11:44 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@lanna @Carol

Thanks, your comments made me smile :-)

Fair question – I miss-spoke before, the product was actually sold to *two* private lists, mine and my single (current) affiliate. But it’s not on sale in public yet.

I’m not defending Naomi really, as I said before – she’s blown it, in my eyes. And there’s no way I condone tax evasion, despite the fact that big business does little else, as far as I can tell. That doesn’t mean I think she’s evil, though, or that she or Dave were scamming anyone.

I’m defending the concept of making money through a blog, and selling or buying advice to get started at it. Nothing wrong with it, it works (for me, so far) and there’s no scam to uncover. That’s what my sweeping claim was, by the way – I wouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t more sleaze to come, on reflection – it’s there to find in most places if you look hard enough.

Anyhow, I made my point, said my bit – enjoy your vicious little website, and don’t be too disappointed when the global conspiracy fails to materialise.

LOSER!! ::   -10



BananaTaco Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:31 pm

@Wait, she has LIED her motherfucking face off from start to finish to everyone, including herself. And here’s a thing, I WOULDN’t go see a shitty ass Wesley Snipes movie *because* he’s a tax evading parasite prick.

Some people do have a moral code you giant bag of dicks.

  +5

[Reply]



Glad I Was Broke Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:16 pm

@Also waiting,

What is your product?

  +1

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:09 pm

@Wait,

I was reading your comments with great interest until I read this:

“Allison, the one Salty Droid has been so concerned about this whole time, the Godly one.”

Why would you call this woman names? I feel great sympathy for a woman who has been walked out on by her husband leaving her with three sons and no support. Why would you say something so obnoxious about her?

You are not some neutral party seeking information. You are here to carry water for Naomi Dunford. That was a really cheap shot at a woman who did not deserve it.

WINNER!! ::   +25

[Reply]



Bonnie Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 4:54 pm

@Barbara,

Amen to that! Exactly what I was thinking!

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Donk Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 6:39 pm

I just read that post and you are spot on Barbara. Has to be the spider or someone close to her. The spider is my bet.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:05 pm

@Donk,

I think you’re correct. As soon as I saw that breathtakingly cruel comment aimed at an innocent, injured party I knew this was no unbiased commenter.

She was attempting to pose as a fair and equitable person but she couldn’t maintain her mask. She just had to slip the knife in, thereby tipping her hand to one and all.

So all that nonsense about Naomi’s great products, abilities, helpfullness, was just that; nonsense.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Donk Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:15 am

That comment might also give just a sliver of substance to the notion of them having the affair as well.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Wait Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 7:34 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

To all of you, I stated my reasons for not giving personal details and I am sorry if you do not understand affiliate marketing and the services Naomi and Ittybiz provided for me. I also feel bad for you if you feel it is your job to be vigilante against hard-working people in a profession you simply do not understand. You obviously are not in the same business as I am. I will not apologize for defending my experiences with Ittybiz, as it was all well above par, and nothing like the people who post here say that it is. Furthermore, I have not insulted anyone, regardless of how hard you try to make it look like I have. As far as Allison goes, according to the transcript above (if that is what it is and it is authentic….I seriously have my doubts now after seeing how you have reacted), she knew about the conversation. I don’t see how you can leave her out of the stone throwing that you have started. You revealed that information, not me. I make no judgments against her, or anyone else for that matter. It simply doesn’t add up that the fans here and Salty Droid defend her so passionately and then release information that damns her. If anyone has committed tax fraud, this makes her part of it. Finally, I have had a long weekend. A close family member passed away and I have been dealing with that as well as the hurricane toppling trees on my house. I chose to come back here and leave this last comment but it was so not worth it, especially since I asked nicely to be shown respect. I refuse to lower myself to these ugly standards. If you have no class, you are exactly where you need to be, among your peers. You, my friends, are the lost causes, but I will still pray for you. And I will hold my head high and be proud of the fact that I left with my dignity.

Now, blast away while I go do something constructive.

LOSER!! ::   -6



Enlightened (Formerly Confused) Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:55 pm

@Wait, Maybe we have different businesses. I think there are plenty of people who start with a business – like selling apples – and can use Dave and Naomi’s products to sell more apples online.

But the problem everyone is saying is neither of them ever had a business selling something real online and their experience is all regurgitated stuff they’ve learned elsewhere, just prettied up with their ‘personalities/swearing’.

The other problem is while those selling apples – maybe someone like you who is claiming not to have a MMO niche – MAY indeed see the value, how much more value could you have gotten if you hired a real expert with real world experience (one selling apples around the world).

And those with no real business end up listening to their ridiculous advice and start creating a business out of thin air based on experiences they have.

Dave regularly spoke about how you didn’t have to “be an expert” to create a business around your expertise. He said “if you’re a 5 in web design, you can teach the 1′s and 2′s.”

This is a fucking problem. Why is someone who is a 5 in web design teaching 1′s in 2′s about web design – shouldn’t they be fucking creating websites for clients?

That’s the whole point here. I see it every day, someone who has a retail store is selling eBooks on how to create a successful retail store. Well if you were so successful, why are you on Twitter 24/7 promoting your eBook about it?

Or a raw food expert helping other raw foodists learn how to create a brand out of being a raw food expert. Shouldn’t she be sharing her raw food advice for people who want to go raw?

It’s ridiculous. And this “third tribe” / hipster syndicate has created this dream. Just today I fell into a blog by a girl who coaches creative businesses. Yet she’s never had a creative business besides selling her coaching and products. How does that work?

Just my 2 cents.

WINNER!! ::   +27

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:08 pm

@Enlightened (Formerly Confused),

you get a thumbs up from me. I’m sick of “coaches,” especially life coaches. I’m sick of “Teaching Sells,” because all these assholes think they can teach and charge outrageous prices when they don’t know shit about teaching and real teachers are out there getting their benefits cut, stuck with the Third Tribe’s spoiled idiot spawn in their classrooms. Besides, 99.999999% of people don’t want to pay 5-level prices to learn to be a 1 or 2-level web designer, they just WANT TO PAY TO GET THE FUCKING WEBSITE! The “teaching”/infomarketing model’s only good for the infomarketer WHO IS A SCAMMER BTW WTF

Time for a break! I’m glad Salty’s back.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Teaching Sells Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:54 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Slowly Waking, Aaron Wall is a Teaching Sells student. Seems to have worked out pretty well for him, he even gave a testimonial that is used on the Teaching Sells homepage. Not sure if that came up during Aaron and SD’s interview. I assume it would since SD is pretty thorough in checking connections.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



Michael Martine Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:10 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Teaching Sells,

So is John Jantsch of Duct Tape Marketing, the biggest small biz marketing how-to site on the web.

Lynda Wyman runs the most well-respected software training site in the world at lynda.com. I think it predates Teaching Sells but it definitely shows the characteristics Teaching Sells teaches. It’s an extraordinarily excellent model most cases but can easily be turned into a frauduct when there’s no real difference or benefit when you complete the training. At least with software, that’s obvious: hey, when I open up Photoshop I can make this happen, etc.

I mean it’s not like Teaching Sells invented any of that, they packaged it up nicely and (now) charge a lot for it. If I wasn’t an early member and got in at a super-great early price I wouldn’t join it now. I’m too DIY for that, I’d figure it out elsewhere.

LOSER!! ::   -5



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:45 pm

@Teaching Sells ::

Teaching Sells is and was bullshit … my unambiguous and unequivocal opinion.

@Michael Martine ::

Maybe if you don’t want to finish our litte email convo … you should stop commenting here. Just a word of advice which I’m sure you won’t take.



Jaime Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 8:09 pm

@Enlightened (Formerly Confused),

You highlighted a serious issue that’s obvious everywhere in the IM realm and the “blogging about blogging” world. Great examples, too.

You can bet $$$ that anyone selling a secret to making money knows it’s absolutely easier to sell the next person the idea than carry it out themselves.

If the idea was any good in the first place, they’d DO IT!

Let’s not get started on the idea of “business coaches” – what a load of crap.

  +6

[Reply]



Joni Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:58 am

@Jaime, It’s not unlike those scammers selling winning lotto tickets or Miss Cleo (anyone remember her?). If she’s psychic, why can’t she pick some wining lottery numbers for herself.

All this is nothing more than 21st century snake oil. People have been attempting to scam others since the fish walked and they’ll continue to do so as long as there are gullible or desperate (or both) folks out there willing to drink their Kool-Aid. Sad but true.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:55 am

@Joni,

and the reason this site and the people on it are uniting to make it impossible to do this

This blog is also about stopping new scammers from getting started

showing low level scammers they’re being targeted just like everyone else

Nobody is safe till the indictments are handed down

WINNER!! ::   +9



Anonymous Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 9:33 pm

@Enlightened (Formerly Confused),

Many great points…

Simple fact of business: If a business actually has a COMPETITIVE advantage over the competition they would never sell it…especially for chump change
===

Dear also waiting & waiting,

It’s obvious you both are friendly with Naomi and feel she is worth the money…to that I say: ignorance is bliss

Wait – you said the following about your girl naomi: ‘her “USP” is “internet marketing advice from a woman who swears a lot’

That is NOT a USP…that’s her persona…her act…her schtick

I would love to know what you both sell…Im certain you can describe your product without jeopardizing you operation

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:23 pm

@Enlightened (Formerly Confused), I came across a resource yesterday for independent authors and it’s written by someone who hasn’t authored a single book. She blogs therefore she’s the expert.

The problem beyond “teaching sells” is how so many people are buying into the dream that they’re not taking the time to research credentials to determine how the experts are qualified. Is someone who writes $12 web articles qualified to charge $1600 for a copywriting course? Probably not, but no one is challenging it either.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Mr Kirk's Nightmare Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:24 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Enlightened (Formerly Confused),

There’s a flaw in your logic. If that was the case, why would anybody hire marketing or advertising agencies, most of whom are staffed by people who have never run a non-marketing business?

Perhaps you should go knocking on doors around Soho or Madison Avenue, telling them it’s time to shut up shop because they’ve have no right helping people sell products, because “they’ve never run that sort of business”?

LOSER!! ::   -9

[Reply]



Shorty Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:03 pm

@Mr Kirk’s Nightmare,

It’s obvious you don’t have much experience w/ real marketing/PR firms. Professional marketers can provide you tons of credentials, including degrees from top schools and having worked on successful campaigns with measurable results.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Mr Kirk's Nightmare Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:31 pm

@Shorty,

You’re showing your ignorance. Having worked for several London digital agencies, I can tell you they don’t give a fuck about “degrees from top schools”. That’s because you can’t teach marketing in a classroom.

Business undergraduate degrees are considered a joke, taken by students who weren’t smart enough to do a real subject.

Some corporate marketers will take Chartered Marketer qualifications, but it’s very rare agency-side.

The direct marketing agencies have measurable results, this is much is true (branding agencies, not so much – but they are bigger scammers than anyone on this blog as a rule).

But how do you think they get those first campaigns to use as case studies? That’s right… by blagging it.

For the hard of thinking, here’s how it typically works:

1. Cold call as many business as you can, promising them amazing results.
2. Fuck up, sweep them under the carpet
3. Finally get lucky, and use that luck as a case study
4. Congratulations, you’re now a legitimate advertising agency

Anyhow, you didn’t answer my point. Which was that you don’t need “experience running a business selling apples” to help a company who sells apples. In fact, it can be a hindrance because the best ideas normally come from people who aren’t too close to the product.

In a similar manner, it’s quite conceivable that Naomi & Co could have helped people, despite having little experience in their field. Although I couldn’t vouch for it, as I’ve never bought any products from this “Third Tribe” (who are the first and second tribes, by the way?)

As a side note, turning up with no experience whatsoever and charging people a fortune to tell them how to run their own business has a long and illustrious history. In my day though, such people were called “Management Consultants” and they worked for Arthur Anderson.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   +2



Shorty Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:50 am

@Mr Kirk’s Nightmare,

It’s you who show your ignorance. Digital agencies in London? Even if that’s true, we’re hardly talking about companies on the level of BBDO or McCann Erickson (just two of the firms I’ve worked with) are we? I’ve worked in corporate communications for years and of the many marketing/PR experts I have in my address book–VPs at leading ad agencies and Fortune 100 companies–none of them have ever cold called or followed your “typical steps” because they STARTED at reputable companies and built reputations with actual work in the industry. My guess is you couldn’t make the cut for to get into uni, worked at a couple rinky-dink agencies doing rinky-dink online campaigns and now you think you know all about marketing. Do you position yourself as a guru? I would not be surprised.

I didn’t address your other point because it was such a misrepresentation of @Enlightened’s post and showed a lack of knowledge about how successful companies use marketing and ad agencies. I don’t know of any company that would hire a marketing consultant or ad agency that didn’t already have experience creating or executing campaigns for similar products. So @Enlightened is 100% right that you should have experience selling apples before you hire yourself out to help others sell apples. You don’t have to have owned an apple store, but you should have worked in their marketing department or have some related experience. It’s common sense, which yes, I realize is not so common.

What is disgusting is fake marketing gurus who take advantage of inexperienced people who have dreams, but not the experience to sniff out a scam artist.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



Mr Kirk's Nightmare Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:09 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Shorty,

You’re probably right, but I can’t help being curious.

What qualifications do you have, exactly, to have reached such obviously lofty positions?

LOSER!! ::   -8



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:38 am

@Barbara ::

Yep! That was a give away for sure. Expecially because I’ve only said Alison’s name one time …

Now here’s Dave arguing over custody with Alison like Anthony and Roseanne in the 80′s :: with spider blight Naomi Dunford in the background … talking about fake death threats and craziness with no respect.

These Naomi trolls are the worst!

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:45 am

@SD,

Not only did the viciousness of the comment reveal Naomi behind the mask but the insult of deliberately misspelling Alison’s name. What a childish fucking bit of business from the slime that is Naomi.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 12:47 pm



destemper said:

Wow, pretty enlightening stuff. The thing is, Why would Dave leave after this conversation? Clearly this happened before he left his wife and kids, right?

  +1

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:00 pm



anonone said:

Well, so far, neither of the principals in the chat have claimed it didn’t happen or is inaccurate.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Frank Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 3:07 am

@anonone, Trying to deny it would do two things, both negative. It would: 1. Draw more negative attention, and 2. Make them look even worse, given that this can be confirmed by third party logs.

  +3

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:22 pm



Syndicate H8r said:

i·ro·ny1    [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
noun, plural -nies.

1. Bragging about not having a paper trail on paper
2. Being a success coach who admits she sucks so bad at business that she has to sell her “how to make easy money” system

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



MrGray Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:01 am

@Syndicate H8r,

I am English. I am predisposed to love irony.

Thank you.

  +2

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 1:32 pm



Hal (the original Hal) said:

I’m getting the same crazy stuff as cartman. Mobile site interface on and off, other people’s sign-ons (who’s Gus?), site is down, site is up, etc.

Are you getting a denial of service attack or something?

‘Cause if it’s only caused by a sudden surge in real traffic, you may need to beef up your hosting.

This is just a B-Team implosion, imagine what would happen if were someone from the French for Trade Union.

  +2

[Reply]



Dale Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:21 pm

@Hal (the original Hal), No hacks. The server is getting a BOAT LOAD of traffic right now. The tech people had to make temporary modifications to keep it holding up, and there are some glitches due to that. That’s why voting is mostly nonworking and there are some other issues. You can also install and try another backup browser and that may help. But it’s all due to a major influx of traffic. This site is getting slammed with visitors.

  +6

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 2nd, 2011 at 3:27 pm

@Hal (the original Hal), B-team implosion (upgraded to A-team) hijacked by Dunford’s hijacking of the good intentions of women against violence, sexism, and brutality. She’s not got tons of followers, but that tweet spread wide.

The hosting’s on a charitable 501(c)(3) group’s server: http://home.dod.net/

  +5

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 3:05 pm



Just Jake said:

I am amazed at how small Naomi’s income is. Over three years she’s got 400K?

Even giving her the benefit of the doubt that it represents net income (rather than gross income) it’s the equivalent of a job paying 100K with benefits.

Nice, but not extraordinary. Not worthy of hero*-worship, treating people like crap, and ruining her reputation forever.

Jake

* Should that be “heroine” worship? My feelings get hurt when she accuses me of sexism.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]

# 2 September 2011 at 4:36 pm



Iam3r said:

* Dave is closing his site. I downloaded the “modules” he’s now offering for free. From what I have skimmed, it looks like there might be a few good tips here and there, but if I had, had to pay money for those things, I would’ve been one really ticked off victim-consumer. I also spotted a grammatical error on the top of one–and remember this was just from a quick skim.

* As for Naomi, at the time of this writing it is possible to write comments on the IttyBiz facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/IttyBiz . Perhaps some individuals her on saltydroid.info might want to post a link there that leads back here with the very enlightening discourse between Naomi and Dave. Just a thought.
–
(an oldie but a goodie): “I want the truth!” / “You can’t handle the truth!”

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



tsk tsk Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 1:44 am

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UIpXhd7KrswJ:questiontherules.com/conference-signup/+questiontherules.com+blogworld&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

And look at this on wayback machine

questiontherules.com/qtrcon2010/

  +2

[Reply]



Grover Lembeck Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:46 am

@tsk tsk,
I’ll bet Silent Bob is not happy with Lee Stranahan (am I spelling that right? If not, well, do the rules of spelling and courtesy really matter? Wow, that website alone got me to Question the Rules!)

At least now we have a pretty good idea how Kevin Smith got into re-tweeting this.

  +5

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:01 am

@tsk tsk,

Funny how they describe dave navarro:

Dave Navarro – Launch Coach Extraordinaire

Dave was SOOOOO good he launched himself right out of the business

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



Enlightened (Formerly Confused) Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:42 am

@tsk tsk, what’s funny is one day Lee Stranahan sent out an email begging people to coach with him because his life was a mess, NO JOKE. I can’t remember the exact email (I’ll see if I can find it) but it was all about his family was being evicted from where they live and all sorts of nonsense basically saying he was broke. Would anyone want a business coach who can’t find a steady place to live? UM NO.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Joni Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:22 am

@Iam3r, that FB page makes me ill. I cannot believe all the gullible women she’s hoodwinked.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Cosmic Connie Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:41 am

@Joni, Well, I’m doing my part. On my own Facebook page I linked to your very reasoned blog post, for which I will provide the link again for the benefit of those who haven’t seen it. http://joniverse.com/2395/itty-bitty-shitstorm

  +2

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:05 am

@Iam3r, Someone on Naomis Facebook page pointed out that this transcript is from a chat in 2009 and things could have changed.

Right. They could have. But we do learn a few things:

* Naomi is very manipulative
* Naomi will lie to suit her purpose
* Naomi was teaching stuff she was failing at in real life
* Naomi, whether she paid her taxes or not, had at least a moment where she seriously considered criminal behavior.

What interests me the most is that Dave declined this wonderful and generous offer. If it didn’t sit right with him I’m wondering how he got to the point where he trusted Naomi enough to give up his life and go on the run with her.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



FormerFriend Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:31 am

@SpideySenses,

He didn’t decline. The deal fell through after he opened an LLC under “Ittybiz”. He fell for it completely.

WINNER!! ::   +10

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 3:26 pm

@FormerFriend, Tell us more…

  +3

[Reply]



Allyn Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 7:21 am

@Iam3r, so the Launch Coach is free now??? and just 120 days ago, people were paying how much for it?
Wonder how pissed off those “customers” are now!

  +4

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 1:34 am



Foreigner said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

This Droid may be salty, but he is not very sharp. I’ve never read such hateful crap like on this site. I hope that you get what you deserve some time in the future … you and all your brownnoses and asshamsters, which can’t get enough of putting even more oil into the fire. If justice is somewhere out there, it’s going to get you sooner or later.

PS: Please excuse my grammar – english is not my native language.

LOSER!! ::   -8

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 12:11 pm

@Foreigner, boy there isn’t a shread of hypocrisy in your post! LOL!

  +3

[Reply]



Shit Storm Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:47 pm

@Foreigner,

have you any clue what you’re talking about…the people being called out on this site have stolen, lied and conspired…that is all proven here in tremendous detail

I think you need to just admit to everyone that you’re on the B-team and what little money you make selling these frauducts is QUICKLY drying up

Lets see how smart these marketers are when stealing from noobs is near impossible…and soon becoming impossible

How you could defend the dishonesty of these people is beyond comprehension

  +4

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:48 pm

@Foreigner,

@Foreigner,

asshamsters

dude…serially….I don’t know what you do in your country….but that’s just wrong….leave the furry little rodents alone….

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 11:56 am



How not to sell said:

From http://ittybiz.com/how-to-sell-to-anybody/

Who will by the Spiders stuff:

“Meet Auntie Vera. Auntie Vera is angry. Very angry. She has a highly dysfunctional relationship with commerce. She takes all but a very few commercial transactions personally. She yells about junk mail. She screams about sale signs in the mall. She spends a lot of time bitching in social media.

Something inside her feels ashamed that she bought something in the first place, so asking her to buy again is like backing an animal into a corner.

She’s about 0% likely to buy and 100% likely to complain her Congresswoman.

The reason you pull your punches when you’re selling stuff is because while Auntie Vera represents between 1 and 3 percent of the buying public, she’s also the loudest. By far.

On some level, we think Auntie Vera is the majority. She’s the majority of who we hear from, so we think she’s the actual majority. She squawks when we sell, so we don’t sell. What we don’t pay attention to, however, is that she was going to squawk anyway.”

Hmmm… I think Naomi may have a lot of Aunties now… like her part about complaining to her congresswoman.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

@How not to sell,

On some level, we think Auntie Vera is the majority. She’s the majority of who we hear from, so we think she’s the actual majority.

we think…we hear…we think

ohhhh boyz….did Naomi did the foolies on me…I was thinking…I’m sooooo mad at Vera…..then I remembered Melonchuk wisdumb…there’s no “I” in we

Jeff [[injecting poison]] Walker…meet Naomi [[how not to sell]] Dunford….

and speaking about transparent BS

Is this for a “legal defense fund”?

Maybe. He may get enough money to sue these guys to Neptune, or he may do the much more sensible thing and blow it all on cocaine and prostitutes in Columbia.

http://ittybiz.com/so-what-do-we-do-next/

ummm….a “defense fund” is when someone is a defendant in a case…

WINNER!! ::   +12

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm

@_cartman_ ::

… oh not she didn’t!!

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:48 pm

@_cartman_,

“Do everyone a huge favor here and DO NOT GET PRECIOUS because you only have ten bucks and you feel weird and offensive paying only ten bucks”

So she wants us to not feel guilty *only* sending poor Dave ten dollars and says he’ll be sooo grateful. Maybe because it’s the last ten dollars Dave the Huckster makes online?

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:55 pm

So Naomi removed all comments about the scandal from Itty Biz and has a non sales sales page on the blog. http://ittybiz.com/so-what-do-we-do-next/

It’s a good one because she says they’re giving products away but hints at needing money for a legal defense fund so Dave can sue. Sympathy donations FTW!!!

  +6

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:58 pm

Meant to say she removed comments from the Itty Biz Facebook page. Sorry.

  +2

[Reply]



Naomi Dundford Dave Navarro Hooker And Blow CRA Tax Evasion Fraud Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:29 pm

Using Dave Navarro to benevolently give away freeline content. Naomi is so benevolent with her tax evasion CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) backed taxes fraud.

And apparently Naomi Dundford admitted Dave Navarro spends his money on hookers and blow. Naomi Dundford Dave Navarro Hooker And Blow Tax Evasion Fraud. Naomi Dundford Dave Navarro Hooker And Blow Tax Evasion Fraud Naomi Dundford Dave Navarro Hooker And Blow Tax Evasion Fraud Naomi Dundford Dave Navarro Hooker And Blow Tax Evasion Fraud. Canada Revenue Agency.

Here’s a link to where Naomi does more freeline fraud tax evasion and Dave Navarro does hookers and blow with his fraud internet moniez (Naomi Dundford fraud tax evasion internet moniez scam scam): http://ittybiz.com/so-what-do-we-do-next/

Scam Naomi Dundford CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) tax evasion fraud freeline “pretend to be a good person” link:
http://ittybiz.com/so-what-do-we-do-next/

I did the seerch enginz optimeyezations. Can I have internet moniez now? No taxz pleaz! Just like Naomi Dundford tax fraud CRA scam con artist. Itty Bitty bullshit.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:35 pm

@_cartman_,

I clicked through andread her BS post and had one question when i read his entire list of ‘products’

with all that knowledge he sells in his courses why is this guy BROKE?

Seems with all that brilliance he wouldn’t be destitute

  +4

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 12:41 pm



Comment King said:

http://janetfraser.id.au/blog/2011/08/30/death-threats-and-hate-crimes-naomi-dunford-shares/comment-page-1/#comment-6457

Please comment now..

  +4

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm

@Comment King,

Thanks. I’m trying a one-woman campaign to counter Naomi’s lies and I left two comments at that site. I highly doubt either will be posted but I said:

“Janet,

I’ve taken the time to read more on your blog including The Crone on comment moderation. Having read that post I doubt my prior comment will be published. But I’ve also seen that you link to Against Pornography, and that gave me hope that you’ll at least listen to me, if not publish my comments. (my feminist credentials here) I have a virulent hatred of pornography and what it does to women around the world.

One of the first problems I had with Naomi Dunford was her constant sexual teasing. She spoke of “shaking my scantily-clad thing in their faces” and bragged of “saying cocks and balls 23 times, you wouldn’t believe the traffic I got”. Her writing was filled with unnecessary sexual innuendo, stories of visiting sex shops, etc. in a blatant effort to stimulate men in her audience. As a feminist I deplored this type of juvenile sexual come-ons but just ignored her, there’s far worse on the web.

Then along came a man, The Salty Droid, who pointed out some of her shady business practices and she immediately appealed to feminists for help by accusing him of making death threats that he never made. This woman is no friend to feminism or women. She is using you and others like you by using deceit. Please explore this issue further before deciding Naomi is a victim. She is not. She is a victimizer. Thanks for listening.”

Now I highly doubt my comment will be published but I’m horrified by feminists jumping on the bandwagon of this deceitful woman’s false charges.

WINNER!! ::   +14

[Reply]



whatthewhat Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:01 pm

@Barbara, Here, here! You have put it so perfectly. I truly hope your comments get out there so other people can gain some of your awesome perspective.

  +6

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:19 pm

@whatthewhat,

Thanks. Sadly, Janet Fraser chose not to publish my comment. I asked her politely to explore the issue further and she declined. Why?

Because it makes a better story and drives more traffic to her blog to disseminate the lies of Naomi Dunford? Because it’s more fun to jump aboard the fake death threats express than to look for the truth?

I am very disappointed in this woman and others like her who make no effort to educate themselves but take the cheap and easy way out.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



whatthewhat Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

@Barbara, That is disappointing that she would post your comment. Generally speaking, I can’t say it’s a bad thing that some of these people who don’t know who Naomi is went straight to her defense. I have to say that I would probably do the same thing if I heard nothing but “threats against women on the internet” because women DO get harassed on the internet.

However, if someone, like Janet, does have a blog and posted their support for Naomi, I think they have a responsibility to AT LEAST mention that the situation isn’t as clear as they originally thought. It makes me a bit angry that when someone like you posts this really well expressed and well thought out idea that needs to be added to the conversation and do some good, you get censored. The ideas you expressed (regarding using sexuality to titillate & then calling on feminists for help against false misogynistic threats) are something that needs to be discussed and discussed openly.

And relating this directly to her scams, I think it is important that people who are her customers or are considering being her customer have an opportunity to see these crazy manipulative tactics. Think about it, what type of personality does someone have to publicly and falsely accuse another person of making death threats against women for being successful.

@_cartman_ Now I owe you a Christmas card too!

In general, I’m getting a little tired of people (other sites, not so much here), that they looked at this site and are dismissive of it because Salty Droid swears and calls people names, therefore he doesn’t have credibility with them. Grow up. (I know that sounds rude but I mean it in the least rude way possible, and I can’t think of any other way to say it). So, grow up. Yes, swearing is offensive to some people and other people don’t care. But saying “the sky is fucking blue” doesn’t make it any less true.

If any of those people just skimmed through the interview he did on SEOBook this site makes perfect sense.

  +6

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 7:06 pm

@Barbara,

Now I highly doubt my comment will be published but I’m horrified by feminists jumping on the bandwagon of this deceitful woman’s false charges.

I don’t know about the feminist that wouldn’t publish your comment, but some “feminists” have their own agenda when retweeting Dunford.

Like $997 mastermind programs…cuz you know…men are hogging the limelight…and women donate more and stuff…and they’re filming at the beach…so it’s all grate…

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5596952/WE%20Mastermind/Video2.mp4

  +6

[Reply]



Uncle Ralph Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 7:33 pm

@_cartman_,

Wow. That video really shows how widespread the b.s. is!

“Over 30% of the world’s population has access to the internet. Do you realize how huge this opportunity is?”

What bullshit propaganda. That statistical come-on is about as meaningful as saying:

“100% of the world’s population has access to their own wallets. Do you realize how huge this opportunity is?”

Packaged deception.

  +5

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 12:59 pm



RT said:

Another good one to leave a comment as an update on the story:

http://www.circusserene.com/index.php/2011/08/ive-no-idea-what-to-title-this-post-but-its-about-naomi-and-it-feels-important/

  +4

[Reply]



Barbara Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm

@RT,

I left a comment there, I doubt it will appear but thanks for the link.

As a woman I am enraged that Naomi is using feminism as a shield to hide behind. You are NOT a feminist Naomi!! You are what feminists rail against. You use bullshit vomit-inducing sexual come ons to drive traffic to your fraudulent site in order to bilk people. Then you squeal VICTIM!!! The big bad MENZ are out to get me!! They’re going to KILLZZ me! Help feminists help! Damn your lying eyes Naomi, you are a disgrace to your gender.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Silver Agave Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm

@Barbara,

Yeah. It’s frustrating seeing her benefit from playing the gender card, while simultaneously setting things back in her writing, where she claims she’s just being herself. The book “Female Chauvinist Pig” takes on this exact phenomenon.

I’m not amused by her most recent post of self-effacement, where she says:

“I can’t sell it because that would make me even MORE of a fat, ugly, slutty marketer.”

This is how children and teenagers insult one another. People here have called her names, yes, but she’s getting the same treatment that the scamming men do. It doesn’t make it right, but it’s equal. Why on earth are her defenders so outraged over the language on this blog, seeing as that’s indicative of how she communicates?

But that line? If I didn’t already know she was a very untrustworthy business person, I would want nothing to do with anything she was selling, even if it was Carrie Bradshaw’s Dream Mansion or whatever I’m supposed to be wanting these days. A

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:42 pm

@Silver Agave, It’s brilliant manipulation. You know what people see when they visit Naomi’s latest blog post?

“Legal Defense Fund.”

All the plump with righteous indignation feminists and wannabes see is that SD made it difficult for Dave and Naomi to sell. (Nice work, by the way, SD.) No one can be there to hold their hands and give them group hugs, poor things, but they can open their wallets and show solidarity that way.

Do you think Naomi would have even mentioned “legal defense fund” if she wasn’t looking for contributions? Me either.

  +4

[Reply]



Frank Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:00 pm

@SpideySenses, So is she asking the people who already paid her money, that she didn’t want to pay taxes on, to give her even more money so she can actually pay those taxes?

What fool would fall for that?

I’d also imagine there are laws and regulations regarding the collection, reporting, and permitted use of such “funds.” Maybe she’ll need another “legal defense fund” to help her clear up any problems related to this “legal defense fund.”

  +3

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:08 pm

@Frank, Oh she’s much more subtle than that. She’s giving everything away and merely mentioning a legal defense fund. She’s not coming out and saying “donate” but anyone who recognizes manipulation will probably get she’s subtly putting the suggestion out there.

  +3



whatthewhat Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:05 pm

@Frank, I couldn’t believe that post when I read it. It was so transparent. It has a very “teenager” level of manipulation to it. I mean, in one breath she says “I’m giving this away for free” and in the next breath says “and here’s a way to send money”.

  +3

# 3 September 2011 at 1:13 pm



KG said:

Simply fascinating. This is much better than watching T.V. It’s like watching a tennis match between this website and Ittybiz.com. Unfortunately I can’t add comments or ask questions on the latter website.

With her new post of: “So What Do We Do Next?”

I think Option #1 would be best for her, but with one caveat. Instead of the money going to her directly, she could ask her supporters who still believe in what she offers, to mail the cheque directly to the CRA, or to the builders of the school in Cambodia (they do not likely have PayPal though). That way she doesn’t have to be the middle man, the money could be used for a good cause, the supporters of this woman get what they want, (and if she hasn’t already paid all of her back taxes) she doesn’t have to go to jail. That’s a Win-Win.

What does she gain by giving away her products? Proving to her customers that she isn’t trying to scam them? Proving to her customers that she cares about them and is not disrespectful toward them? Clearing out all her inventory so it will be easier to declare bankruptcy if she hasn’t paid her taxes? Paving a way for a fresh start and doing things differently if she is indeed up to date with paying her taxes?

Inquiring minds want to know (at least I do). You have to give her credit. After all of the negative and critical stuff that has been exposed about her, she’s like the Energizer Bunny that keeps going and going. That’s tenacity.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



WHOcked-on-Fonix Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:15 pm

@KG, me thinks…http://www.sociopath.com/

  +3

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:02 pm

@KG,

I really, really doubt Naomi has any Cambodian school-builders actually lined up and waiting, KG. I think it’s all a ruse. However, if you truly want to help educate Cambodian children, Google found “about 3,050,000″ results for “school in Cambodia donate PayPal.” You could start runnin’ ‘em through CharityNavigator.org till you find one that’s worthy.

When I read that Dave opened up his stuff for free, I shamelessly ran over and grabbed some PDFs because I wanted to see what he thought was worth $197. So maybe the logic is to prove to skeptics like me that it is worth $197. In which case, it’s backfiring. Horribly. I’ll leave it at that because I feel sorry for Dave. I know a lot of Daves. That’s why I’m here.

As WHOcked-on-Fonix suggests, Naomi displays some sociopathic tendencies that make it difficult to assign logic to her actions using a conscientious mind. (For a good read, I recommend George K. Simon’s “In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People.”)

  +4

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 4:01 pm



also waiting said:

@ Slowly Waiting

A new reply thread, as requested.

I don’t think is really worth my while, but since you asked politely:

“You still don’t say what exactly you do, though, just that it’s not making money from a website? But you’re doing launches? How does that work?”

The business is based on services, but I’ve been running informational blogs for 3 years now. People asked questions that went beyond what could be blogged so at the moment I’m trying out selling info products to get some return for my time. So, I’m starting to use the website as an extra revenue stream.

“Also, what’s your business structure?”

I’m based in the UK – it’s a private limited company.

“More importantly, what’s your market? Not MMO. But what is it– barbeque, entertaining, travel, home decorating, the ever-popular dog training?”

With apologies, I’m not going to say. I’ve seen the way people are treated here, and anyone can sign up to the Third Tribe – I’d be pretty easy to spot in there. This is the only question I won’t answer, though. Not MMO, or SEO, or any of that stuff.

“Do you have these kinds of qualifications, and do they apply to your business?”

There are no relevant qualifications, but I have over 10 years experience and success, which counts for everything.

“You sold a PDF and a video– for how much? Download only?”

$50, download only.

“How many customers did you have?”

 135 sales so far.

“is your video some cheap shit thing you threw together on your iPhone, or did you hire a professional crew and editor?”

I made it myself – its a screen-capture with voice-over, carefully edited – the production standards are high. Only one adverse comment so far.

“Is the video actually a more efficient way of learning than reading a manual?”

The eBook and video cover similar ground – the video demonstrates what I’m talking about, the eBook is more structured and detailed.

“So you’re a registered business, paying taxes at federal, state, and local levels, fairly paying people who do work for you, and you have all the legally required documents and disclaimers in place on your web site? Your address is in your emails? Good, because those are things Dunford et al. tend to leave out.”

Yes – the UK equivalents, anyway. Naomi had addresses etc in emails, by the way – I don’t know what the other US requirements are.

“And consider that the lines of ethics are very, very blurry– perhaps you do use them ethically, but your Third Tribe teachers have not.”

I don’t see that. Would you like to provide some examples ? Are you a Third Tribe subscriber ? Have you read their materials, participated in the forums or heard the Q&A calls ?

“Also, the price tag you quote seems terribly high to me, especially considering it’s just “information” and not things tailored to your specific situation. How would $900 of personally-tailor consulting, from a person in your community, redefine your standards for “value?” ”

Remember the total cost of Naomi and Dave’s products only came to about $150. Third Tribe membership is more expensive, but the forums and Q&A calls do give an opportunity for personalised stuff.

“And you realize that their continuity programs are set up for their bottom line most of all. Scribe, for instance, is weak sauce after you do this for on-page (PDF). But it’s awfully nice to have that money coming in at Copyblogger every month.”

Sure – I can see how it works and read between the lines. Scribe is all about convenience, for me – and as I get better at SEO I imagine I’ll stop subscribing for it. All software is the same, though – the developer puts in time up front and if they’re successful, sell thousands of copies to win massively in the long run. I don’t object to that, if the software works. Can you recommend a free alternative to Scribe ? Not just using the Google keyword tool and three or four other sites – that’s what I used to do. Scribe is WAY more convenient. BTW I know other people who pay thousands of pounds a year to companies supposedly optimising their content who rank lower in Google than I do.

“For some reason you’re perceiving what they offered you as high value, when everything you’ve implemented that has worked for you (if you’re being straight, it’s still not specific enough for me to say because what you’ve written sounds like an affiliate marketing pitch, or something from freshman comp) is on the net for free, if only you’d found the right sites instead of Third Tribe sites.”

Really ? Care to post a list of those sites ? Actually, don’t bother – one advantage to the Third Tribe is getting everything in one place, without having to spend hours googling and sorting the wheat from the chaff. I read the free content on Copyblogger for years, and found it very useful – that gave me confidence that their paid stuff would also be good – and I was right. By the way, I’ve had my word called into question more times in the last three days on this site than in my entire professional career To date – I don’t appreciate it.

” “Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen “get rich quick” schemes online that turn my stomach, but that’s not what Naomi and the “Third Tribe” are doing – exactly the opposite in fact, that’s the whole point.”

…is so wrong. Yeah, they say they do it differently than some of the older folk, and like to point it out: making fun of the yellow highlighter and the bullet points and the headlines. But there’s no difference in Dunford, Kern, or any of the B- and C-teamers. They put a dimestore Valley sheen on old-school infoscamming.”

Again – please explain the scam to me ? They use salesmanship to make their products appealing – so does EVERY company selling ANYTHING. They offer full money-back guarantees and honour them. What’s the problem ?

“Read some more of this site. I’d point you where to look, but you’re here already, and I don’t want to charge you $600/hour finding it for you.”

Most of the content on this site turns my stomach. I googled for the “Syndicate” and all I got was links back here. To be honest, I’m pretty sure this is all tabloid nonsense from someone with a chip on his shoulder about online marketing, I’m not inclined to waste any more time here. And I wouldn’t pay anyone $600 an hour for anything – but I know plenty of companies that DO pay that to consultants.

Naomi’s site was full of bad language that made me laugh and believe she had a heart of gold, rightly or wrongly. This site is full of foul language, hate and cruelty that leaves me feeling sick to my stomach.

Thanks for replying like a human.

 

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -3

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm

@also waiting ::

… go fuck yourself liar.

Links or silence.

[Reply]



MM Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:45 pm

@SD,

If you’re looking for proof with names, Aaron Wall was a Teaching Sells customer, and gave them a great case study. The transcript of it is here:

http://tweetpea.me/Tammi/TeachingSells/teaching-sells-aaron-wall-seobook-transcript.pdf

Seeing as Aaron interviewed you, why don’t you ask him if he’s all a bunch of lies? Or do you think what he does is a scam pyramid business like all the rest of them?

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -1

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:38 pm

@MM ::

Seeing as Aaron interviewed you, why don’t you ask him if he’s all a bunch of lies?

Do you see what’s wrong with that sentence? I was the one answering the questions … that’s how interviews work.

And I think I might remember telling Aaron one or ten times that Brian Clark is fucking bullshit who should be purged from the system. Matt Mullenweg … mother of wordpress … also gave a testimonial for Clark. I also might remember complaining about that … but I think I’ll keep using wordpress.

And also … piss off.

[Reply]



MM Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:59 pm

@SD,

Now you’re just being mischievous with semantics. You know what I mean. I’m sure he wouldn’t begrudge you emailing him a quick question. “Did Copyblogger make that testimonial up?”

What you told Aaron is irrelevant to my question. I didn’t ask what you said to Aaron.

You keep claiming all third tribe testimonials are false testimonials. Anybody who gives evidence to the contrary is shouted down unless they wish to give their website details over to your angry mob.

So… here’s evidence. Here’s a real testimonial for a major Third Tribe product: Aaron Wall.

Either denounce him as a Ponzi scammer, ask him if his testimonial is a fake, or how was it you said? Ah yes… “Shut your cakehole”

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -1

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:45 pm

@MM ::

Yeah put your site up so we can see your fucking success. Like if Aaron came here and left a comment saying he was successful because of Teaching Sells … then I would go look at his site … and tell him that Teaching Sells has absolutely nothing to do with his success. And that you can’t really know why you are successful … and that trying to extrapolate it and put it in a box is dangerous.

But if he came here anonymously and said :: “I made a million bucks last year all thanks to Brian Clark” … then he’d just get a big fuck you! Cause there’s no way to have a conversation about that … and it will be presumed a lie.

I also take every opportunity to tell people not to give testimonials … even real ones. Don’t trust other people with your name. “Testimonials” are almost always BSey and devoid of actual informational value.

A shady testimonial is one thing :: a shady plot to work together to prop each other up is totally another.

And why ask these questions here on the Naomi ShitStrom?

Did the devil have your tongue last week when we were talking about it?



MM Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:18 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD,

So what you’re saying is, in essence, that even if one of the commenters who is talking about their product DID post a link that backed up their claims, you’d tell them that Naomi’s help has nothing to do with their success. Because they can’t extrapolate

Riiiight.

Thanks, that’s pretty much told me all I need to know.

LOSER!! ::   -7



_cartman_ Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:38 am

@MM,

You keep claiming all third tribe testimonials are false testimonials. Anybody who gives evidence to the contrary is shouted down unless they wish to give their website details over to your angry mob.

Statements are not evidence, testimonials are not proof. A testimonial from the John & Jane Doe’s of the world, such as; “so and so is a rock star in this and that….and taught me so much”, doesn’t mean a thing.

I can tell someone that if my blinker doesn’t work in my car, my tires are low in air [[I'm fucking with you..I know it just requires a top up with blinker fluid]]. Does that mean I should be teaching mechanics? Anyone who knows less then me [[which is why they came to me in the first place]], will accept my mechanical prowess, so their testimonial [[even if 100% sincere]] doesn’t make any of my statements of knowledge, factually correct or successfully utilizable [[except to those who will make money teaching others my wisdumb]]. It just means that there will be more car owners who regret that _cartman_ is teaching the new wave of mechanics [[what...that was not nice...I have a testiMOANial]].

[[100% true testimonial:_cartman_ are a good teacher...and you poopie heads who try and take him down is just dumb...and trying to inject poisons into brains of others is wrong...so says Walker [[not texas ranger]]…and Tony Robbins is our savior….touch his ham….and _cartman_ plays with balls of yarn…and yarn is cool!]]…see it’s 100% true…it says so.

Because they can’t extrapolate

Fundamentally correct,but more importantly, success has to do with numerous factors, ALL of which are governed by initial and ongoing conditions [[market, economic, global, star alignments and dates...what you tried to start a business when your house was in Leo...are you nuts]], and thinking outside the box is better suited as an axiomatic way to “approach” any dynamic system [[change the initial conditions or ad more variables and formulizing [[or compartmentalizing]] becomes impossible, as the system reaches an ever expanding “chaotic” state who’s variable are not accounted for]]. Of course that’s not beneficial to a society of pseudo-intellectual experts, that were “married” to their expertease….

and speaking about marriage….

[[channeling expertease ceremony]]

Which imbecile is giving away the bimbecile?…Ohhh okay…Frank Kern….the Gawdfrauder….

Who’s the flower girl….okay then…Deiss…you stand there…close your mouth…you’re drooling again…yes okay…you can tend dem rabbits later…

Do we have the syndicate ring boys…Pagan, belcher, fleeceme…et all….you’ll stand there…

okay then…lets begin…

Dearly Beloved,

We are gathered here today in front of Brendon Burchard and in the presence of these syndicated testiMOANializers, to join this bimbecile, to her newly appointed expertease in the bonds of wholly fraudumoney.

If there are any objections of why this union should not take place…please visit Mike Filsaimes help desk and file an objection, or forever hold your peace.

sorry…times up….

Do you Maria a. Andros, take this title of Video Marketing Queen in the bonds of wholly fraudumoney….to lie…con and scam…and provide kickback testiMOANials…so long as you shall live…

Marie: I does…

By the powers investered in me [[by me, and validated by the syndicated testiMOANializers]]…I now pronounce you video marketing queen [[crowning the queen with imperial margarine container crown cut out]]….go forth and prosperply!!

I hear that Mike [[The Gnome]] Filsaime would like to make some toast….go ahead Mike…

Mike [[holding up a glass of shampain]]: Maria…I knew you when you told your first ebay fabrication…I was there to witness your first $1Million dollar real estate tale…you scammed through the SMTB and VCF program..and the other one that doesn’t exist…[[wink...gnomic laugh]]…to see how much you have grown in your fraudulent ways, brings tears of joy to my eyes…you’ve done me proud…fraud on girl…fraud on…

Ladies and gentlemen…it’s the grate Jimmy Davis…the floor is yours [[someone help him up]]..I was speaking metaphorically Jimmy….anyways…go ahead…

Davis: ummm….maria ….ummm..ummm.. like..ummm…like…um…fraud on….I am the grate Jimmy Davis…

very eloquent Jimmy…okay…Master mind in the reception hall begins at 6:00pm

[[/channel]]

That was nice…but I forgot…what did she market online that qualifies her as “marketing queen”…ohhh that’s right….she marketed her lies of being able to teach you to market…all backed by fraudulent claims and testimonials…

Now I have a date….where’s that ball of yarn….

WINNER!! ::   +14



also waiting Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:46 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD

Thanks for replying like a bot. Sorry, droid. Whatever.

LOSER!! ::   -10

[Reply]



also waiting Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD,

Hm, spidey didn’t say that, I did.

Post a verifiable source for the exchange quoted above, or go fuck *your* self

LOSER!! ::   -7

[Reply]



NewHere Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:50 pm

@also waiting

153 ebooks???!????
And YOU THINK YOU GOT GOOD ADVICE FROM NAOMI?

Look, I created one ebook with info people constantly asked me (I have a degree in that area) and put in a website with ZERO promotion. So far, over 800 copies have been sold at $25 (money goes to charity). I don’t have time or desire to build a list or attract traffic and still sold over 800 copies in about 6 months.

How can you justify to yourself the money you spent on Third Tribes, Itty Biz and other stupid online marketing stuff?

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Doctor Mario Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 4:55 pm

@also waiting ::

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA … You said:

“Naomi’s site was full of bad language that made me laugh and believe she had a heart of gold”

“heart of gold” ???

Are we talking about the same Naomi here?

You know, Naomi Dunford? From IttyBiz?

We CAN’T be talking about the same person … you must be thinking of someone else.

Did you notice how there is this big ole’ blog post above these comments?

Did you read that? There’s this looong chat transcript … it’s pretty awesome!

Naomi, you say?? Heart of gold, you say??

My friend, maybe you should check the post {/and your fucking sanity} before you write long diatribes about your fake “business” and 135 sales of $50 shined-shit-balls.

Why don’t you post your tax returns for the $6750 “business” income? You can blur out sensitive data.

Or your URL? should be pretty easy, I’d think … what with you being an online “business” and all?

Or iz u scurred cuz u iz liar?

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



also waiting Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:58 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Doctor Mario,

I forgot to reply to this.

““heart of gold” ???
Are we talking about the same Naomi here?
You know, Naomi Dunford? From IttyBiz?
We CAN’T be talking about the same person … you must be thinking of someone else”

Well, the actual quote was:

“Naomi’s site was full of bad language that made me laugh and believe she had a heart of gold, rightly or wrongly.”

But to answer your question – yes, absolutely. People keep telling us new-comers that “Salty only swears and says offensive stuff for effect, underneath he’s a good christian”. Well, I don’t buy it – I think salty is the authentic personality, not his “writer”. But maybe that’s because I don’t read this nasty little site regularly. You don’t read Noami’s site so you find my interpretation of her unbelievable.

It’s a stalemate, so I’ll say it again:

This site is full of foul language, hate and cruelty that leaves me feeling sick to my stomach.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



No Name No packdrill Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:05 pm

@also waiting,

when you are dealing with fundamentalists no response from you is going to change their minds. Best to leave now and make your own way on the internet…believe it or not it’s a huge place and this corner of it is unnoticed by 99.9% of it. While I come here regularly for entertainment and information, I retain my critical thinking skills and laugh at Salty’s hypocrisy in some areas and admire his skills in others.

Go play by your own rules, like all successful people, including Salty, do. That includes not having to explain yourself to a fake robot on a website.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -2

[Reply]



Not an immer Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:46 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Not much entertainment or info if everyone here did that, right? And 90% of the comments here are from make-money-onliners trying to salve their own consciences…rip people off during the day, comment here at night. Even those who contribute valuable info to the robot probably don’t miss a beat in their own shilling.

LOSER!! ::   -10

[Reply]



Walt Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:38 pm

@Not an immer, And you arrived at your non-facts and total speculation how? Maybe you should change your name to something more accurate: “Most definitely an immer,” because that’s what your lingo says.

Insinuating that lies and plotting fraud is not criminal because you generalize that others do it is hardly justification to ignore the laws of society. Not that you would care.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Not an immer Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:51 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Walt,

I don’t think you understood my comment. Of course its wrong- it’s wrong when spidershit does it and it’s wrong when all of you do it (even if none of you have even her limited success). Just because you guys stink at scamming does not make any of you better than her. If you bought any of that garbage and tried any of those tactics to make money- you’re as bad as her and Dave. And coming here and acting holier than thou does not excuse any of you either.

And of course I can sling the lingo- that’s our culture now. THAT doesn’t stop until all of you quit your day-internet-scamming jobs!

LOSER!! ::   -15

[Reply]



Walt Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:18 pm

@Not an immer, I misunderstood nothing. Your attempt to defer Naomi’s sins by bestowing blanket, unknown sins on others (“you guys”) makes your non-argument a ridiculous rationalization. You are clearly attempting to trivialize bad behavior. For what reason, one can only guess.

What anyone else has done or has not done does not change whatever Naomi has done, nor does it make it less wrong or more acceptable. Everyone will have to deal with whatever their own sins might be, but Naomi refuses to do so, and here we are.

I believe in being honest with customers, paying your taxes, and not treating others as though they are stupid cattle only fit for you to use and abuse.

You can continue to rationalize, but you’ve made your non-point, and no restatement will ever make it valid.

  +6



SD Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 7:28 pm

@Not an immer ::

90% of the people here are scammers? You just pulled that out of your ass.

There is some of what you describe though … not among the commenters … but a lot of readers like to read this site telling themselves they’re not like the people featured here. I already made of graph of it …

http://saltydroid.info/graphic-language/



Shelly Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 6:46 pm

@No Name No packdrill, What is a fundamentalist? Someone who is against crime? I’m not bringing religion into anything, and I am against cheating on taxes and lying to customers. I guess that makes me a “fundamentalist.”

You’re just trying to make everyone who obeys the law and has any ethics out to be the bad guys. That’s crazy. Sounds like you’d empty the jails and imprison the law abiders.

I can’t believe anyone not covering for someone else would make such an outlandish comment.

  +1

[Reply]



No Name No packdrill Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:42 pm

@Shelly,

Fundamentalist : strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs

as in

All people that sell how to make money products on the internet are scammers.

It would be nice to think that reasonable people would engage critical thinking skills and work through what they are being presented with and add a good pinch of salt.

- Information presented by Salty will always be slanted to appear to support Salty’s cause (he was a lawyer FFS, of course it does)
- Not all information that Salty has will be presented because it would harm his cause
- information will be drip fed because just like those awful marketers on the internet, he is building to a climax where he will reveal his most revealing information to support his cause

Fundamentalism would have you believe that there is ONLY black and white. If you don’t agree with Salty you get voted down no matter how considered and reasonable your argument and opinion is. There is no respect for dissenting opinion and the growth it brings in this place.

In the real world, not everyone that disagrees with one part of what Salty says disagrees with everything he says. That’s how it is possible to think that being a tax evader is wrong (even though it is a national sport) but also think until proven guilty it’s kind of irrelevant to whether selling a book about how to make money as a blogger is actually a scam.

Which Is why I was telling @also waiting it’s a lost cause coming here and trying to explain her position (I think it’s a her) because the fundamentalists are not going to swallow it.

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



Had To Speak Up Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:07 pm

@No Name No packdrill, Oh Puh-lease. Your “she” is not explaining a “position,” she’s attempting to shill for the dubious spider described above. Just as you are.

  +1

[Reply]



No Name No packdrill Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 11:06 pm

@Had To Speak Up, thanks for proving my point re fundamentalists not respecting a reasonable and dissenting opinion

@_cartman_ :)

  +1



Had To Speak Up Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 11:59 pm

@Had To Speak Up, Your arrogant repetition of your own obvious agenda proves a much bigger point. Thanks.

  -1



Had To Speak Up Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:01 am

@No Name No packdrill, Your arrogant repetition of your own obvious agenda proves the REAL point here. Thanks.

  +1



_cartman_ Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:23 pm

@No Name No packdrill,

Fundamentalist : strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs

Beliefs are not proven, that’s why they are called beliefs. Ironically, much like the income statements and suckcess stories relied on to buy into the unicornian dream.

See it was thought many many years ago around the 1960′s Thales thought the earth was flat, but sometimes in the ’80′s bugs bunny proved it was round by throwing a baseball and it came back with all the flags of the earth.

That is why on Easter we look for rabbits, because bugs bunny showed us the way.

WINNER!! ::   +16

[Reply]



KG Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 11:01 pm

@_cartman_,

Hilarious. I loved that Bugs Bunny episode. Who’d have thought that Bugs was the original Easter Bunny?

  +3



Iam3r Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 11:30 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@No Name No packdrill,
I like what you are saying here. I voted you up, but currently your comment is still standing at -2.

That’s a sad fact as it sort of proves you correct. I wonder if very many of the folks that voted you down actually *read* what you wrote. Oh well.
–
Sometimes the truth hurts.

LOSER!! ::   -4

[Reply]



Truther Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:07 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Iam3r, I’d guess you and “No Name No packdrill” co-exist together inside someone we all know’s rectum, since you both churn out the same bullshit.

LOSER!! ::   -7



NewHere Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:11 am

@No Name No packdrill,

“In the real world, not everyone that disagrees with one part of what Salty says disagrees with everything he says. That’s how it is possible to think that being a tax evader is wrong (even though it is a national sport) but also think until proven guilty it’s kind of irrelevant to whether selling a book about how to make money as a blogger is actually a scam.”

Ditto. I’m glad I’m not the one who thinks that way. I’ll wait for more info, maybe SaltyDroid has not finished exposing the truth and will get to the proof of scam as opposed to evidence of an attempt at tax evasion.

I have never bought and will never buy (or even download for free) stuff about how to make money online. However, I know of people who justify spending money on such things as “following their dreams” and “not having time to look for the same information freely available on the web, having to separate the wheat from the chaff on their own” (interestingly they think they can separate the wheat from the chaff when they decide from whom to buy ebooks/consulting sessions/etc., but that’s their money and as far as I’m concerned they can spend it they way they want).

  +6

[Reply]



NewHere Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:59 am

I meant “I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that way.”

  -2



Cosmic Connie Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:15 pm

@NewHere, @No Name No packdrill, Here’s where I’m puzzled. Salty may or may not have more information about Naomi and Dave N. But in my view he has already shown ample evidence of ongoing scams that are separate from the tax evasion issues. Maybe we just have a different definition of “scam” and will simply have to agree to disagree about it.

Regarding some of the defenders of Naomi (and the detractors of Salty, and the people who say they are just trying to figure it all out): maybe some or all of these folks think that in order to qualify as a “scam,” it has to be a classic Ponzi scheme, something on the level of a Bernie Madoff who scammed many people out of billions of dollars over many, many years.

Our friend @Joni, for example, who wrote the reasoned blog post that @Dave and I and several other people praised (but who subsequently decided that there’s too much hate here on Salty’s blog), asked this on paranormal thriller novelist Annie Sisk’s blog: “Where was SD when Madoff was tiptoeing around?” Overlooking the fact that Salty specializes in specific categories of scammers and New-Wage con artists, AND that Madoff was under EVERYONE’S radar for decades, and was running his scams before Salty was even born.

And obviously I still don’t see eye to eye with other female bloggers on the misogyny issue either, but that’s probably worthy of a separate comment…

WINNER!! ::   +7



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 8:24 pm

@No Name No packdrill,

Here is a fact:
All people that sell how to make money products on the internet are scammers.

You don’t want this to be a fact because you make your money selling how to make money shit

You fight this fact with all your might because you know you are knee deep in selling the phony dream

You prey on peoples hopes for a better situation and sell them on a phony make money online “idea”

How do you live with yourself

how do you live with all the deception that is in selling make money online crap

You deny it all you want but the only people who believe your point of view are fellow make money online peddlers

  +6

[Reply]



Slowly Waking Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 8:33 pm

@Slowly Waking, that wasn’t me! First caught in the IM web, now in the shattered commenting system here.

Yet I find I agree with what you say. Fascinating.

  +1



TIDBIT Reply:
September 8th, 2011 at 10:49 am

Love this blog, but have to agree…We’re all puppets. We just choose different puppetmasters.

  -1

[Reply]



KG Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 5:13 pm

@also waiting,

You write: “They offer full money-back guarantees and honour them.”

Could you personally get your money back if you chose to? Do you know of anyone in this business model who was dissatisfied with the product/consultation they purchased and was refunded?

I think I’m missing something. Either what you are saying is false, or you do not have all of the information.

Clearly there are many people on this site who believe they have been scammed. That suggests to me that there was no refund for the products/consultations/etc. that they purchased, because if there was a full refund, this internet scamming topic would be a non-issue. (Except for James Ray of course, who offered no $10K refund for his fake sweat lodge experience, and trust in him lead to death for 3 people and serious injury for others).

It appears that a woman customer that @Barbara mentioned, paid $600/h for her consultation with ND, was dissatisfied, and did not get refunded. The only thing that ND did was ridicule this woman on her website. (I’d post the link, but I’m not computer savvy – you’d have to read the posts above @Barbara).

  +4

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 4:16 pm



MM said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

This is a very entertaining soap opera indeed.

However I fear unless our esteemed SD has some better dirt than what he’s already delivered, Ms. Dunford could well win the day.

In spite of all the self-righteous harrumphing on this blog, the general mood on twitter seems to be pro-Ittybiz. I haven’t seen many people retweeting this post at all.

And what does the smoking gun really contain at the end of it? That she doesn’t like taxes and is thinking up ways to avoid them? The only people who will find that shocking are tax collectors and employees.

Anyhow, she may not owe any at all by now. The chatlog was from 2 years ago.

Of course, if she plays this correctly, she could end up with even more fans than she had previously. A vocal minority will hate her even more vociferously than ever, but I doubt she care.

So – SD – whaddya got?

(oh, and I noticed Perry Belcher is online and alive again. I thought you’d run him out of town http://perrybelcher.com/ ?)

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



BloggyBloggerton Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:33 pm

@MM, – Sad to say, I think you’re right…in a way. However:

Both Dave and Naomi are selling high ticket advice (frauducts) about which they have no real experience / qualifications. Not to mention they are both basically broke, which is quite ridiculous given the products they sell and image they portray.

Naomi doesn’t even want / like business!!!

It’s like a struggling minor league baseball player (who can’t hit home runs) selling information products about how to hit home runs? What a joke, right?

The problem (and the reason I kind of agree with you) is that I don’t think most people will care. It’s kind of like how poor people still vote Republican (for economic reasons). They don’t want to “kill the dream”.

She’ll probably end up twisting this to her advantage, just like Kern twisted his “FTC problems”. I mean it’s clearly CLEARLY proven that Kern got his start selling frauducts. He admitted it on video. Yet, how many people really care? Again, they wanna keep “the dream” alive.

If they admit Kern (and many others) are basically scammers, then they have to admit this “get rich quick Internet millionaire lifestyle” isn’t real.

All that being said, I DO think this blog IS waking some people up. And hopefully Salty can chisel away (little by little) at some of the brainwashed people out there.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   +4

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 7:17 am

@BloggyBloggerton,

Politics? Really? I mean, I agree with much of your comment, but equating this with “those Republicans” is just naive.

  -2

[Reply]



BloggyBloggerton Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:24 am

@Jaime, – Fair enough. After I hit submit, I realized my analogy probably didn’t have enough context. Oddly enough, I’d vote Republican (Ron Paul).

However, There is a massive part of the population that identifies themselves as Republicans. (I’m talking Neo Conservative Republican – - Bush / Cheney / Etc).

Clearly, these wealthy Neo Conservatives DO NOT “serve” the middle class (at least not economically). They serve the “elite”. Yet, I think a large portion of the middle class and even poor wants to imagine themselves as part of the club (or are striving to be in the club).

“Some people call you the elite. I call you my base.”
- George W. Bush

By the way, I don’t think most Democrats are any better.

——————————————

Anyway, that’s where I was going with the analogy. If you disagree with that politically, I’ll let you have the last word(s). I’m not going to argue the point here.

  +2

[Reply]



Stupid people Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 8:40 pm

@MM,

If after reading everything here, people are still fans and customers of Naomi, Dave, and the other fucking idiots in their circle jerk, they deserve to be taken for all they have.

Sometimes, even if you beat the shit out of people with reality, they still wanna buy the dream. Stupid people!

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:45 pm

@MM,

In spite of all the self-righteous harrumphing on this blog, the general mood on twitter seems to be pro-Ittybiz. I haven’t seen many people retweeting this post at all.

looks like alexa says otherwise….her traffic peaked for part one [[curiosity no doubt]], but has been going down ever since….her loyal followers have been spamming the shit out of twitter, but to no avail….part two link less…part three died before it was born….

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=r&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=7d&u=ittybiz.com&amp;

NOTE:The above link is to a dynamic graph that will continue to change as Alexa updates reach stats, so the seven days [[Aug 27- Sep 2]] it shows today is going to continue to change until none of what is shown on that graph will be relevant to this comment

WINNER!! ::   +11

[Reply]



SpideySenses Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:40 am

@_cartman_,

A quick glance around Twitter this morning shows some people aren’t buying into Naomi’s shit and are responding in kind. It’s only a couple of people so far but it’s restoring my faith in humanity.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



I'm Perry Belcher and I'm BACK! Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 9:22 am

@MM, Well, I’m not really, but the fucker is back on Twitter too http://twitter.com/#!/perrybelcher He’s already got 8,000 sheep following him.

  +1

[Reply]



last laugh Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 10:40 am

@I’m Perry Belcher and I’m BACK!,

And if you believe the 8K followers I have a bridge to sell you.

  +4

[Reply]



I'm Perry Belcher and I'm BACK! Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

@last laugh, LMAO – done! When can I pick it up?

  0

[Reply]



Cosmic Connie Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:04 am

@MM and @I’m Perry Belcher and I’m BACK!: First of all, @MM, I will give you the benefit of the doubt in regard to your statement in another comment that you are just trying to provide some balance here. However, as others have noted, the tide may be turning against Naomi. That may change tomorrow, and then it may change again the next day. As @_cartman_ reminds us, it is a dynamic process.

To me the big issues aren’t the alleged tax evasion, or whether Naomi and/or Dave owe back taxes, or how much they owe. To me one of the main issues is the general framework of deception on which Naomi appears to have built her business, and the way that Dave got caught up in that whole web.

And the other main issue is the disgusting way that Naomi threw in the “misogyny” red herring.

Some have tried to excuse Naomi by saying that the incongruity between her “online/business persona” and her real personality is NBD. But when the reality of Naomi’s life is so much at odds with what she is teaching, I think it is a pretty big deal.

Perhaps Naomi started out with good intentions (here I go again, giving the benefit of the doubt), but then she got caught up in the whole IM Syndicate-ish culture. When you think of her business ethics (or apparent lack thereof, as demonstrated in that transcript with Dave), and when you consider that this kind of thing is S.O.P. for many in the IM industry — and that many good people apparently get screwed all the time because of stuff like this — it isn’t just “an entertaining little soap opera” or a “storm in a teacup,” as @alsowaiting put it in another comment.

And in my view, Perry Belcher’s re-emergence just proves that the public has a short memory (something I’ve been saying all along, though generally in the context of James A. Ray and other New-Wage hustledork/scammers). I guess if the scammers are in it for the long haul, the critics have to be too. After all, one monthly flea and tick treatment for your dog or cat doesn’t keep all of the bloodsuckers away, no matter how powerful and effective it is in the short term. You have to keep it up.

PS ~ I realize the above was an imperfect analogy, because fleas and ticks, as much as we dislike them, have a utility in nature and a legitimate place in the ecosystem. But I hope it got the point across anyway.

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]



Anonymous Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:34 am

@I’m Perry Belcher and I’m BACK!, like the classic pedophile, peeps like Perry Belcher just can’t stop scamming people. It’s a real sickness.

  +3

[Reply]



What about the battered housewife? Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

Does anybody remember the post that ND ran a couple of years ago asking for donations for a battered woman? I can’t remember the details but she rallied her readers and asked them to donate so this woman could get away from her abusive husband once and for all.

I’m reasonably sure that people donated to her and then she passed on the money.

I know she made a big deal out of how much money she raised, just wondering if there ever was a victim in all this other than the fools like me that sent some money.

  +5

[Reply]



_cartman_ Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

@What about the battered housewife?,

Do you mean this one, or was it another?

http://web.archive.org/web/20081220091828/http://ittybiz.com/?

  +5

[Reply]



What about the battered housewife? Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

@defend-experts, Yes thanks that’s the one.

I’m wondering if that will rear its ugly head in up coming posts?

  +5

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 4:36 pm



also waiting said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@NewHere

135 in 7 days, yes. In 6 months I imagine it’ll be somewhat more.

@No Name

That’s the conclusion I’m reaching

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Glad I Was Broke Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 9:19 pm

@also waiting,

Dude, what is your product?

What are you afraid of? You don’t have a website, so it can’t be hacked. You run a legit business, so you don’t need to worry about taxes or any legal ramifications.

  +3

[Reply]



Caine Reply:
September 3rd, 2011 at 10:38 pm

@also waiting, Your comment comes across as “responding” to people you know just for show.

  +5

[Reply]



also waiting Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 3:48 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

If you guys had actually read my posts, you’d have spotted that I *do* have a website, and I *do* sell info products (just started) but they aren’t MMO-based or even related to online stuff at all.

I actually hadn’t considered that it might be hacked, if I posted a URL, but now I have and that makes me even less likely to post it !

I *don’t care* how my posts look to Saltydroid’s drones, my purpose in posting was to get a little balance. Since I’m going to stop now, I imagine they’ll get buried soon, but hey – I gave it a shot.

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure neither Naomi nor Dave would recognise my name.

Like I said – enjoy your viscous little site, but don’t be too disillusioned when you realise it was all a storm in a teacup.

LOSER!! ::   -6

[Reply]



Caine Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:13 am

@also waiting, You brag about what you refuse to prove that you are bragging about. Are you living in the Matrix? You should change your name to “Bullshit T. Excuse.”

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



MM Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:28 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@also waiting,

SD has pretty much admitted in reply to one of my threads that even if you did post a link to your site, he’d tell you it had nothing to do with Dave & Naomi because you “can’t extrapolate”. Save your breath.

By continuing to be reasoned, and receiving very little but abuse and personal attacks in return, you have shown that both the author of this site and many of the commenters have no interest in “balance”.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 7:40 am

@MM,

Yes, he’d say it’s unlikely you could put your “business in a box” in such a way that a complete newbie could run with it in similar fashion.

The idea of selling your {successful} business model is stupid anyhow. Real business leaders don’t spend years of their life perfecting something to just hand it over in biz-opp format.

Myself and others here are just saying that you are, in fact, a liar. You are not successful. You have no business to package and sell (again a stupid idea, but you can’t do it if you wanted to).

I’d bet my left kidney that you don’t earn enough monies using the Internet to escape your day-job.

WINNER!! ::   +9

[Reply]



MM Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 8:15 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@Jaime,

I’m sorry, I must have missed something I posted.

Please could you help me by pointing out where I said I was earning monies using the Internet? Or that I have a business to package or sell?

In fact, at what point did I talk about myself at all?

I’m also confused as how to you could have come to the conclusion that I’m a liar, given that I have done nothing but point out uncontroversial facts.

Namely that:

1. Salty was interviewed by Aaron Wall
2. Aaron Wall did a case study for Teaching Sells (which I linked to).
3. Perry Belcher is back online

I also offered some commentary.

Last time I checked, lying was claiming something was true when you know it isn’t. Where have I done that?

You do realise that in the text of your reply, you perfectly validated my point: that whenever someone tries to reason with the denizens of this blog, you just resort to personal attacks and namecalling.

Now, let’s move on to this concept that real business owners don’t perfect a way of doing business and then hand it over in a business-in-a-box format.

Are any of the following real businesses in your opinion?

McDonalds
Coca Cola
7-Eleven
Domino’s Pizza
Snap-on tools

They all license their “how to run a business like ours” knowhow to other people, in the form of franchises or IP licensing.

Of course, those are well established franchises with a good track record of successful franchisees. And there a LOT of scammy bizopps out there.

However, where do you draw the line?

LOSER!! ::   -5



Lanna Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 9:54 am

This probably won’t show up in the right place, but it’s in reply to MM’s question, “However, where do you draw the line?”

You made the comparison between these scammy bizopps and those established franchises, so, just for shits and giggles, let’s try drawing a line between those who follow and those who break or evade the laws related to selling business opportunities.

Have you seen a written disclosure requirement from anyone Salty’s profiled?

WINNER!! ::   +10



Anonymous Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 10:38 am

@Lanna,

I can’t speak for the other ‘targets’, as I don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through SD’s entire archive, so I’ll take your word for it. If that’s the case, and they are selling bizopps without disclosure, they deserve to feel the full force of the law.

However, in the (admittedly limited) number of his blog posts I’ve seen, the targets don’t appear to be selling that.

Just looking at Dave Navarro’s catalogue, we have:

(http://www.thelaunchcoach.com/online-marketing-toolbox)

“Creating products that sell”
“Building a responsive list”
“High-conversion sales pages”

Unless I’m missing something, non of those appear to be offering a business opportunity, i.e. a complete package which purports to allow the purchaser to start up in business.

They appear to me to be advice on marketing. Whether or not they are valuable is up for debate, but I can’t see how they are bizops.

So if they’re not bizops, why would they need disclosure?

  -1



Lanna Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

@Anonymous,

One, sometimes – like with Dave’s stuff – you do have to read between the lines. “Creating products that sell” implies you don’t have product – at least not one that sells. “Building a responsive list” implies you don’t have customers yet. Without products or customers, you don’t really have a business. Hence, he’s offering a bizopp.

(I help market startups, but they have to have a product/service to sell before I talk to them about how to market it. He’s not just giving “advice on marketing,” he’s selling them a business wherein they sell “audio, video and text content that people want to buy.” Like Domino’s, both the product and the marketing are being dictated from on high.)

Two, the brochure tells; the letter sells. Or the website tells; the sales page sells. What we’re seeing is Dave’s brochure website, not the sales page or the emails the list gets when he does a launch. For an example of one versus the other, take a look at this woman’s stuff:

Respectable brochure site: http://www.julietaustin.com/
Sales letter page: http://www.clientattractingwebsites.com/

Scroll down to where Michele says, “I didn’t have any clients and was feeling very stuck and discouraged.” At least Michele had a service, but without clients we can’t really call it a business.

(Michele also says, “When I first sought your help I knew absolutely nothing about marketing or what an effective website would look like.” As _cartman_ demonstrates below with his auto-repair advice, someone who knows nothing will accept poor and even incorrect advice as the truth.)

(BTW, Julie’s price, just like Dave’s, is $197. Is that the new magic number? For the Third Tribe?)

Three, and this is a little indirect, but the manipulation that these people pull is what makes them so despicable. If they were just charging $197 for $5 worth of marketing advice, people would buy once and not come back when they were disappointed. And some of the clear-minded people who comment here have had that experience, learned from it and put it behind them.

The lion’s share of the market is from repeat customers, though. Karin Hiebert posted an article here recently that sort of explains them and their logic – here’s the link:
http://karinhiebert.com/james-ray-survivors-lou-caci/

On the other side of the game you have the folks with sociopathic tendencies who exploit customers with troubled pasts, like Dave, and customers with money trouble. As they take more and more money for each e-book or video course, the people who started off with no money turn into even more desperate people who are in debt. They’re promised success is just over the horizon, if only they buy this next online workshop. And they keep chasing the unicorn dream up and down hill after hill.

The FTC has a nice video outlining some of the manipulation tactics used:
http://www.ftc.gov/multimedia/video/cases/empty-promises_hanks.shtm

  +5



Frank Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 12:32 am

@Anonymous,

The Attorney Generals of a majority of the most populated states have a simpler view of what falls under bizop disclosure requirements, which are also REGULATED by the states, in addition to the FTC at the federal level.

Here’s the bottom line question:

Is there any implication that a product OR service will increase the buyer’s sales OR help generate more income than the price paid?

“Implication” can come in the form of obvious words, testimonials, or other references that would lead the average person to come to that conclusion. It can also be in the form of photographs or videos. (Someone standing in front of their mansion referring to their “new lifestyle” but not mentioning specific income would still get in trouble because the implication is there.)

Marketing and sales materials by their very nature are tailor-made for falling under regulatory requirements.

The compliance requirements are quite onerous, by the way. FIRST, before any sales can take place, the seller must register with each state in which he/she intends to sell, by filling out all the paperwork required by each AG’s office, and they will naturally investigate you and want personal information in case they decide it necessary to later come after you.

Then, there are disclosure requirements, which require that you disclose ACTUAL statistics proving the results you claim, clearly showing the percentage of people who achieve those results, and you can hide/minimize NOTHING. This is not the place for advertising.

After that, you must provide a specified number of actual references (actual buyers) whom potential customers may contact to investigate you and the offer. These must be legitimate buyers that paid for the product/service.

Lastly, ALL details must be spelled out in writing for the customer. The offer and all terms and conditions, with nothing hidden or obfuscated.

The customer also has the right to change their mind and receive all their money back even after agreement.

Bonus tidbit: yes, failure to follow these requirements can, and has, resulted in prison.

I can think of a number of “internet marketers” who should have NO reason to sleep tonight or any night, after they read this.

It just takes ONE complaint or report to trigger an investigation. Multiply that times every state you do business in, and the nightmares could be many. And THEN there’s still ALSO the FTC.

WINNER!! ::   +8



_cartman_ Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 10:19 am

@MM,

<


Now, let’s move on to this concept that real business owners don’t perfect a way of doing business and then hand it over in a business-in-a-box format.

Are any of the following real businesses in your opinion?

McDonalds
Coca Cola
7-Eleven
Domino’s Pizza
Snap-on tools

They all license their “how to run a business like ours” knowhow to other people, in the form of franchises or IP licensing.

They didn’t perfect “business in a box”, they have a “backend” [[so to speak]] that handles constantly changing market conditions. Franchisors do not handle marketing, local trends, inventory distribution, promotions, PR, legal, etc. The franchisee handles the more simple [[relatively speaking]] aspects of the business, while the franchisor constantly works with the data in an attempt to maintain some level of success in a a chaotic system where stagnation leads to leads to ultimate demise.

Not sure how you can state it’s in a box, when most of the business is WAY outside the box, that franchisees do not see or handle.

  +5



Jaime Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

@MM,

I knew that eventually some idiot like yourself would bring up franchises as a “business in a box”, somehow equating them with Internet scams.

Who REALLY owns the franchise? Choo chooo … Here comes the clue train… and the next stop is YOU.

A franchise is held accountable to the franchise creators in every form, right down to the haircuts of the employees (Mcdonalds).

Not only that, the franchise pays dues and royalty fees to the corporate owners.

People set up a franchise (which is freaking expensive) because of the billions of dollars in brand name recognition. Oh, and PROOF the damn things make money!

If a franchise location is unlikely to earn a high ROI, the corporate office won’t allow it to be built in the first place!

Other franchises not requiring a brick-and-mortar location have to deal with reviews and performance of current owners when marketing to potential buyers.

The list of contrasts could go on for several pages. Anyone comparing these categories is simply gasping for air while sinking deeper into their own shit.

  +4

[Reply]



Lanna Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 12:56 pm

@Jaime,

I think @MM stopped listening when I drew the line at income disclosures. But just for good measure, let’s toss in that franchisers vet their applicants very thoroughly. Your management team needs to demonstrate industry experience (and success), and you need to turn over personal financial statements demonstrating you not only have enough to buy the franchise, you have enough to operate it and afford your living expenses for a couple years with no profit coming it.

  -1



Glad I Was Broke Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 9:21 am

@also waiting,

If you don’t care how your posts look to other people, why should other people care about your posts?

Just asking…

  +1

[Reply]



also waiting Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:43 am

@Glad I Was Broke, 

I didn’t say I didn’t care what *people* think, I said I didn’t care what the saltydrones think. I know I’ll never change their minds. Don’t care. But there are others who will read who may have a more open-minded viewpoint.

Someone said I’m bragging somewhere, without proof to back up my claims. I’m not bragging, I’m just answering posts that asked for people with a positive experience of Naomi & Dave’s products. I’m one person that’s true for. I realise refusing to identify myself makes that meaningless, but without posting a verifiable source for the conversation in this post, salty’s evidence is also meaningless.

Notice that I’m not calling him a liar. I do think he is biased (duh) and he clearly has an agenda (which may or may not have anything to do with “justice”) as he sees it from his twisted viewpoint.

I’m also biased, but here are some more points, for what it’s worth.

I spend $80 a month on Scribe and Third Tribe membership. If I sell two products a month from now on, I break even. That, to me, is a no-brainer.

Again, I’m not bragging. It was disingenuous of me to say I made thousands of dollars in a week, because it took me a month to create the product. So far, I haven’t (quite) made back the money on my investment in time – but I will. And after that I’ll have a regular income stream, with scope to improve.

Finally, the product I’ve made isn’t selling my business model to anyone – it shares some specific techniques to do with my trade that other people can implement themselves. Will they make as good a job of it as I would if they paid me to do it ? Probably not. But many will be able to do a decent job and crucially they don’t *want* me to do it for them, they want to do it themselves – and, it makes sense for me to help them make a decent job of it – and charge a fair price for the information.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   -1

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:58 pm

@also waiting ::

That sounds slightly closer to sad honesty … so I’ll try to be slightly less of dick to you now.

I spend $80 a month on Scribe and Third Tribe membership. If I sell two products a month from now on, I break even. That, to me, is a no-brainer.

That’s just so wrong that it’s silly. An $80 fixed cost when you basically have no business? If you think that’s a “no-brainer” then you won’t be able to succeed on the web … because your understanding is quite retrograde … and web tech progresses very swiftly so it’s quite hard to catch up. Cancel those memberships right now and start saving that money for the rainy days ahead.

So far, I haven’t (quite) made back the money on my investment in time – but I will. And after that I’ll have a regular income stream, with scope to improve.

No you won’t.

You want to believe this post is about tax avoiders so you don’t have to face the truth of the situation …

You are never going to make money online.

If you want to make money online the way these buffoons do :: then you’ll need to start by disregarding everything they say {cause they have no idea what they’re talking about} :: then you’ll need to suck up to the B-team so you can suck up to the A-team so you can aggressively market lies in conjunction with the 10 other biggest liars.

If you succeed at those fun steps :: you’ll find me waiting for you.

So good luck with that.



also waiting Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@SD,

WHY won’t I make money online ? I have a great product, it sold to 135 happy people in 7 days. When I start promoting it in public it will sell more. Slower, but continuously.

Next time things are a little quiet in the main business I’ll put together another product on a different technique, promote it privately to my list (which will then be larger) and sell hopefully more than 135 copies, then launch *that* product in public and sell more copies. And so on.

All the while I continue to build my traffic, recruit affiliates and cross-promote the products. My customers are very happy, some will buy more than one or all of them.

Over time this will build into a great revenue stream. I know of at least one other person who makes 100% of his living in this niche already, using exactly the same approach. His customers love him. Where’s the scam ?

The “A” and “B” team have no connection with my niche, so there’s no point in me sucking up to them, btw.

You’re just expressing a very negative opinion, not an inevitable fact…

LOSER!! ::   -4



NewHere Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 5:46 pm

@also waiting,

“I spend $80 a month on Scribe and Third Tribe membership. If I sell two products a month from now on, I break even. That, to me, is a no-brainer.”

Do you really believe that you need to continue to be on Scribe and Third Tribe to continue to sell two products a month? Why? Are your “gurus” telling you that everything about selling changes so much every month that you need to update your knowledge every day in order to sell mere TWO products a month?

To me, you sound brainwashed.

WINNER!! ::   +7



NewHere Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:03 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@NewHere,

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough – my point is, that’s the worst case.

If all I ever sell is two products a month, I’ll be breaking even, but no, it won’t be worth doing another product. I fully hope to sell way more than that though, obviously !

Will I continue my subscription to Scribe and Third Tribe ? Who knows ? If they continue to be valuable, then yes. My point is, the money invested is tiny.

Put it another way – if my participation in them helps me sell only three copies a month *more than I would otherwise have done*, it’s worth it ! Of course I’ll never know for sure, but I have a brain, I can think critically and make judgements – to me, I see value in the subscriptions at this point.

Most people spend more than that on their gymn membership every month, FFS ! Do you call them brainwashed because they do that rather than doing sit-ups in their back yard ?

LOSER!! ::   -5



also waiting Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:06 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

Clearly I said that, not NewHere. Bizaro comments system.

LOSER!! ::   -6



Jaime Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 5:51 am

@also waiting,

You don’t need to pay anybody $80/mo because they’re simply rehashing old information or things that can be found for free online.

Seriously.

I’m a business owner. When I look over at my bookshelf, I see these books:

1. Influence by Cialdini
2. Buzzmarketing by Mark Hughes
3. Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes
4. 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing by Ries & Trout
5. Jay Abraham’s republished Mr. X book

The last one is usually sold for around $250, but can be found cheaper on ebay sometimes. The rest are available for $15 or less.

Using those 5 books I’ve taken my business from 0 to ~1M/yr in gross revenue in 4 yrs. It’s not a 100% online business, but the reason for the growth is proper marketing and my brain.

The only thing that you should need beyond books like those is a local, knowledgeable CPA and a couple EXPERIENCED business friends to bounce ideas around {not paid friends or masterminds involving n00bs}.

All the “nuggets” to give you ideas can be found for free. Stop paying people to look for nuggets.

If the mush between your ears is ideal for running a business, you’ll start creating your own nuggets.

WINNER!! ::   +10



also waiting Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@ Jaime

Thanks for the link, that looks like a great site. Although ironically it’s *covered* in “sign up here”, “subscribe” links and pop-ups and claims of $10 million worth of research – exactly the kind of thing most people here seem to be so allergic to. I’m definitely going to check it out, though.

“See, all the “secrets” being sold to you are complete bullshit. They really are. And all the hucksters selling them have no business pretending to be experts.”

No – the “secrets” I’ve been told (which aren’t labelled as secrets within the Third Tribe, even though it’s a popular Copyblogger headline strategy) correlate exactly with the first few things I looked at on that site.

“I’ve seen the most basic products earn money with bad landing pages, terrible writing, and so-so products simply because the person delivering the information was a REAL expert.”

Fair enough. But I knew that before I went into this – I wanted to make do the best I could with it. It’s an interesting point – when I started reading Copyblogger, I had no idea of making money online, I wanted to publicise my brand using a blog. So I wasn’t looking for any of the stuff on Marketing Experiments or the like. Over time, I came to see it would be a possibility and became more interested. It’s a natural progression to get the information from the place I’m already reading and trusting – that’s the “content marketing” model in a nutshell.

I *still* don’t see it as a scam, though. Copyblogger posted three years of free content, all of which is still there in the archives. Sure, at the end of it, they could have said “to find out how to implement all this, go to http://www.marketingexperiments.com/” – but why would they do that ? They’re just providing free marketing there for another company. I don’t see it as unfair that they get some return for their investment of time and information.

@ anonone

“Try Audible.com. Lots of great recorded biz books from actual experts, and not expensive”

Thanks, I’m already a member – I never found the books I was looking for, though. Only one of the list Jaime mentioned is there, for example.

@ SD

“You won’t be able to make money online.”

Watch me. Oh, you can’t – I’m anonymous. Curses. Well as I said, I’ve already made $5000, and I’m going to make more.

@ Barbara

I didn’t understand your joke, let alone your point. I have a great memory for audio – I learn best by listening. All the activities I mentioned are mindless, it’s a great time to learn. OK scratch that, sometimes if I listen when I cook I screw up the cooking. Ah well.

LOSER!! ::   -7



also waiting Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 9:06 am

@Jaime,

First of all, thanks for being the first person here to offer some genuine help rather than criticising, attacking or insulting me.

Next – thanks for the book recommendations, I’ll certainly check them out. Here’s the thing about books, though – they take time to read. Time when I can’t do anything else – when I could be doing any of the countless other things that need doing in my business.

Whereas lots of the online content is available as audio, so I can listen to it while I’m driving, cooking, walking the dog or whatever. And I’ve found that many of the  books I’ve been recommended aren’t available as audiobooks. (Hopefully some of those are though, I’ll try and find them.)

Next – $30 of that $80 is for Scribe. It tells me stuff I want to know quickly, easily and conveniently. I know all the SEO concepts it uses already, but I choose to use it. It just saves me logging into two or other three sites to do the same job.

I do have some experienced, successful contacts who run their own businesses – but they’re very different to mine, and none of them want to do the online info-products. However they DO all experience the “boom or bust” roller-coaster of being dependent on clients booking in, meeting deadlines, paying invoices – and we all want extra, more stable income streams to supplement out core business. They’re also busy running their own businesses and aren’t always available to offer help or advice when I need or want it.

Do you see my theme ? Convenience and accessibility. How many of those books you mention specifically deal with online sales, with building sales pages, the practicalities of hosting info-products yada yada yada ?

I can post a question in the Third Tribe forums and get a range of informed answers from other online business people, usually within 24 hours. I can pick and choose the answers, use the ones that make sense to me, and often get a heads-up in stuff I’d never have thought of on my one, all for half the price of an hour with an offline business coach.

I’m not being scammed, and crucially – neither are all the other people logged in to those forums. Some are already very successful, some are just starting out, one or two I wonder if they really will succeed – but who am I to judge ?

The vast majority are getting exactly what they are paying for, and are happy with the deal – like me.

You’re right – as we gain experience at all this stuff, you start to see the patterns, and figure it out for yourself, and at some point I won’t need 3T any more. Right now it’s exactly what I need.

  +3

[Reply]



Jaime Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 9:19 am

@also waiting,

I understand your point re: convenience. The only book that will take you much time to read (and apply) is Influence.

That Jay Abraham book is written in a format that’s quick to read, digest, and apply.

You want a free marketing education that can earn you a million dollars? Go here:

http://www.marketingexperiments.com

Click on Research Directory. Have your mind blown.

See, all the “secrets” being sold to you are complete bullshit. They really are. And all the hucksters selling them have no business pretending to be experts.

“secrets to landing page design … headlines … layout … email tactics … blah blah blah”

Even if a that link above wasn’t available, you could apply the principles of basic A/B testing to find what works yourself. (You’ll need to do that anyway, resources just provide shortcuts and ideas.)

Everything you need to make money online is free except 1)hosting 2)domain 3)credit card processing.

I’ve seen the most basic products earn money with bad landing pages, terrible writing, and so-so products simply because the person delivering the information was a REAL expert.

“Well, I’m not an expert at anything!”

Then the get the f#ck out of the info-product business. Got start an e-store, sell physical products on ebay or amazon. There’s a ton of things to do online. I won’t say you can quit your job with them (most won’t), but you can add enough income to add to your retirement funds — not blow it on coke and hookers.

WINNER!! ::   +12



anonone Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 10:22 am

@also waiting,

Try Audible.com. Lots of great recorded biz books from actual experts, and not expensive

  +3



SD Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 3:44 pm

@also waiting ::

Here’s the thing about books, though – they take time to read. Time when I can’t do anything else – when I could be doing any of the countless other things that need doing in my business.

Ha!

And thus ends my thinking it’s worth my time to speak to you …

But let me just repeat one thing though before I start giving you the silent treatment :: cause you really seem to love repeating things …

You won’t be able to make money online.



Barbara Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 4:12 pm

@also waiting,

Seriously? “Books take time to read.” That’s your excuse for swallowing Naomi&Co.’s garbage? Because it’s so simple that you can drive, cook, walk the dog or whatever and let this golden shower wash over you?

Any real learning takes real concentration. You can’t learn anything of value doing the “countless other things that need doing” that you speak of in your comment. You remind me of a Bible quote, which is amazing since I’m not a Christian but your excuses are so hollow.

“Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel” (Matthew 23:23,24)

Would you like fries with your camel?

  +5



987 Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 5:34 am

@also waiting, there are audio versions of all the books listed.

  0



also waiting Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 6:16 am

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@987,

“there are audio versions of all the books listed”

Great ! Can you post links ? I didn’t find them using the search on Audible

LOSER!! ::   -4

# 3 September 2011 at 5:14 pm



MazeMan said:

So she is going to give-away her newest product and Dave is going to sell all of his products for whatever someone wants to pay. Hmmmmm.

After being exposed on this blog as frauds, who would want any of their frauducts??

That is a little like saying, “Here, you can have a fat crap sandwich for…FREE!! Or you can pay a little bit for some more crap sandwiches. Either way, once you’re done, you’ll be just as full of crap as we are!”

For some reason, I think I am going to take a crap…I mean take a pass.

WINNER!! ::   +8

[Reply]



Lawrence Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:09 am

@MazeMan, You are spot on. Free bullshit is still…bullshit.

  +3

[Reply]

# 3 September 2011 at 5:25 pm



Just Jake said:

The top right corner of ittybiz.com brags about “24,002 monthly readers.”

24K uniques. That’s all?

Sad, really.

Oh, so sad.

  +3

[Reply]



422 Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:04 pm

@Just Jake, I get the impression that Noami’s site is a lot like Maria Andros. “Fake it till you make it”.

  +4

[Reply]

# 4 September 2011 at 9:52 am



422 said:

Yay I’m posting on the 422nd post.

So yea, Salty I think you should include “Naomi Dumbf*(k” as part of this woman’s new magical motto. No brains, no looks, no personality, no money, no future…total NOT-package.

  -3

[Reply]

# 4 September 2011 at 11:01 am



422 said:

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

btw Naomi “stick a fork in it” Donefor needs to stop getting her hair cut at the dog groomers and graduate up to the flowbee. Your hair’s so short we can see what you’re thinking…in which case there’s not much of that going on. LOL. Btw Naomi’s fashion sense reminds me of those backwards cults like the Mormons or Amish people. Where on earth does she ever get her clothes? Out of the thrift stores? Better yet, the garbage dumpsters?

Just like her hero, Frank Kern, she does need a good flea dip bath. Btw, is it true that Dave Navarro was committed to an institution by his brother? That seems to be a classic control move by fundamentalist family members. Dave’s background is really sad, wow, the guy seems to be a magnet for abusive control freaks, including Naomi, who is clearly manipulating the guy and trying to get all she can out of him till she’s done.

Perhaps the spider singled Dave out, filled his head with pipe dreams to the point where he left his family behind, thinking he could finally live the dream life. Always the same game, just a different name.

LOSER!! ::   -5

[Reply]



FormerFriend Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:33 am

@422,

FWIW, Dave’s brother (a Christian) and his sister (a Buddhist who was a paramedic) both thought he was on drugs after he abandoned his wife and kids based on his behavior. They sought to have him evaluated with an eye to involuntary commitment if it turned out he had a personality disorder/cult leanings/drug abuse. He doesn’t have some “crazy fundamentalist family” as has been widely spread on the net.

Muchly debated. What do you think?   +4

[Reply]



422 Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:01 pm

@FormerFriend, yea Naomi Donefor probably lied about all that jazz too. Getting up and leaving your family and small kids can make the rest of the family think you may be smoking crack or mentally unstable, very true.

But having someone involuntarily committed against their will is not cool. Certainly, there is no excuse for Dave’s selfishness, but wouldn’t it be better to send him to a drug rehab if they thought he was on drugs? Seems like psychiatric institutionalization would lead to him being given more drugs. Obviously, there are more pieces to the whole story. Sad story.

Dumbf*ck has spread lies that this blog has made death threats against her so she is probably also lying about the thing about his family. One thing’s clear, though, Dave seems to be a dream come true for these scammers. Hope the guy can come to his senses and remember all the people who love him and mean well for him, especially his children.

Dave wake up before it’s too late. Cut your ties with these vultures before you get swallowed up whole and you find yourself living with huge regrets for the rest of your life. Go back home to your wife and kids while you still can.

Fix this with your kids while they’re still young. Nothing sucks more than being in a convalescent home, old, sick, hanging on to your last days on this earth and you’re all alone with no one to care.

  +3

[Reply]



Name Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 6:10 pm

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

@FormerFriend, Lol seriously about the crazy fundamentalist family? Have you watched his nut bar brother’s video or read his website? It speaks volumes.

No comment about the situation as a whole because it’s all a big mess, but there’s no mistaken big brother is a little off.

LOSER!! ::   -8

[Reply]



SD Reply:
September 5th, 2011 at 4:10 pm

@FormerFriend ::

Agreed. People believe the parts of Naomi’s lies that conform to their perviously held views.

Anthony being a dangerous fundamentalist is exactly as much a blatant lie as me being a death threatening misogynist. Your younger brother bizarrely abandoning his job :: wife :: and kids … is a very personal matter. It’s where you’re in the right to be passionately moralistic :: it’s a moral situation. Anthony took it to the web because that’s where Dave was :: and he was refusing all other forms of communication. Dave’s son Jacob tried the same thing.

I know this place is full of skeptics and atheists and what not … but I’m getting pretty fucking sick of the Christian bashing.

@Name ::

So the situation as whole :: which is what’s being presented and discussed here :: is too complicated for your wee little brain … but you’re ready to weigh in with a personal judgement about someone’s whole life based on one website they put up in confused desperation? And … and … and … you offer that as a counter to someone who has first hand knowledge about the Navarro family?

Go fuck yourself … use a bible if you want.

[Reply]



Iam3r Reply:
September 6th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

@SD,

“I know this place is full of skeptics and atheists and what not … but I’m getting pretty fucking sick of the Christian bashing.”
Actually, I agree. And I apologize for whatever Christian bashing I took part in myself.

I applaud you for steering things back towards your site’s real focus.

  +3

[Reply]



Name Reply:
September 8th, 2011 at 6:44 pm

@SD, LOL. You are a funny guy.

  0

[Reply]

# 4 September 2011 at 11:25 am



ThisIsCrazy said:

What’s sad about these idiots is their hatred of work. What’s scary is that they teach their gullible students to have the same hatred.

Dave quit a job at fucking Lockheed Martin?!! To do this bullshit??? Are you kidding me?

I’m all for moving on and reinventing yourself, but quitting a great job because you hate work and are in search of a “lifestyle business” is unimaginably stupid.

I feel sorry for his wife and children for sure, but if this is who he is, maybe he’s ultimately doing them a favor by leaving??

So you hate work but want to be rich? Good luck with that…

WINNER!! ::   +13

[Reply]



422 Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

@ThisIsCrazy, they obviously work very hard to scam people. I’d venture to say that Perry Belcher and a few others are scam-workaholics who plot 24 hours a day on how to bilk someone out of their hard earned cash. I can see Belcher sitting in a prison cell, writing his next “business” plan out on toilet paper. It’s not that they hate to work, they just hate to do honest work.

WINNER!! ::   +7

[Reply]



Dale Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 11:58 pm

@422, Great comment.

Diehard scammers are ALL about short cuts, and not wanting to stand in line with everyone else. They will do whatever they can to lie, cheat, or scam their way to their goals. They work long and hard at being scammers.

Perry Belcher was a perfect example. SD once referred to Belcher as someone who lied by reflex. He is a textbook, classic sociopath. Your visualization of him plotting his next scam on toilet paper from a jail cell is both humorous and sadly prophetic.

(Belcher’s current racket, for anyone who hasn’t heard, is hustling “miracle insecticides” to suffering consumers off of a bunch of typically Belcherish web sites under the identity of one of his Austin crew. “It’s not YOUR fault!” and “Thousands of testimonials on file!”)

  +5

[Reply]



Not an immer Reply:
September 4th, 2011 at 4:55 pm

@ThisIsCrazy,

What’s really sad about these idiots who buy into this stuff is that they have so little imagination (or maybe self-confidence) that they actually believe that success can be copied, without any original thought- just repackage, rinse and repeat.