Spider Shit Storm

spiders with pathologies

Dave Navarro and Naomi Dunford are having an affair … they’re shagging … they both betrayed their families for a bunch of shagging …

… or something.

I guess :: that’s what everyone tells me … but thankfully I didn’t witness it myself.  Oh and also … I don’t give a shit.

Every person I asked about this situation immediately started in on the shagging. Haven’t you people ever noticed how I write about fraud rings?

I told Dave Navarro that I was coming to his cybertown :: and asked him if he’d like to talk about it first.  Not something I usually do :: but I am of the opinion that Dave isn’t qualified to be a heartless bastard … still being in possession of a heart.

Dave told me that he’s a Salty Droid reader … and that he would have something to say. He then proceeded to offer up his whole :: I’m not having an affair … Anthony is a crazy fundamentalist Christian … blah blah blah

dot dot dot


Once I made it clear that my questions would not be about Jesus :: or whose bed he wants to sleep in … the conversation ended.

How can you possibly be selling that which you are not capable of doing?

That question can’t be answered :: and no one ever tries.

The article series was planned to go …

Hello Naomi

Hello Dave

— ShitStorm

But Naomi Dunford went fucking insane after Hello Naomi and accused me of conspiracy to incite and commit mass misogynistic murder :: so a few detour posts had to be written. Now the Spider ShitStorm is presented to the most readers ever assembled at the fake robot blog {which is really saying something}.

I’ll hold most of my analysis until next week after we’ve had our discussion :: but here’s a couple of things to notice as you read this conversation between Dave and Naomi …

  • Dave doesn’t quite understand how things work yet :: Naomi does.
  • Naomi never stops lying
  • Naomi is playing Dave :: Dave is a typical B-team n00b
  • Naomi knows Dave’s not qualified :: Dave knows Naomi’s not qualified :: everyone knows everyone’s not qualified.
  • Naomi is a horrible person :: a fraud :: and a criminal.
  • Naomi is A-team :: known {now and forever} as NotPretty Frank Kern

Ms. Dunford and her trolls have been demanding “evidence” :: so I hope they enjoy this as much as I’m gonna …



Naomi Dunford :: Hey. You there?

Dave Navarro :: here! just got on the computer

Naomi Dunford :: Did you get my email?

Dave Navarro :: just now I did. I was busy watching tv and derinking generously. what can I do fo ryou? (excuse my typing)

Naomi Dunford :: Are you sober? There’s no wrong answer, but I need to know. Oh, never mind. You said you were derinking.

Dave Navarro :: Oh, yeah, just a little relaxed. 2 beers LOL

Naomi Dunford :: Could you talk seriously for a bit?

Dave Navarro :: Yes. 100%. What can I do for my favorite Canadian?

Naomi Dunford :: There’s no way to say this without you screaming WTF, so try not to scream WTF, OK?

Dave Navarro :: Ok

Naomi Dunford :: Do you want IttyBiz?

Dave Navarro :: O_o What precisely do you mean?

Naomi Dunford :: It’s a long story.

Dave Navarro :: I feel myself sobering very rapidly. Is everything ok?

Naomi Dunford :: I want out, but I want to keep the platform and some money. I’ve been wanting to sell forever, but haven’t wanted to go through the hassle of prettying it up. Plus, I don’t really want to sell it, because I want to keep the platform. So I was thinking, “I wish I could just give it to someone and keep half the product sales or something.” 6 months of thinking ensued, and tonight I said, “Could I just give it to Dave?” Jamie looked at me like I wasn’t insane for the first time in a year, and we realized we were on to something. /over

Dave Navarro :: Oh, wow. Spiraling a little bit here, because this is insane and cool and wow and … ok, let me think :-)

Naomi Dunford :: Think away.

Dave Navarro :: Ok, first off, let me ask you … what are you planning to do without Ittybiz (I mean, what exactly are you trying to change?) (my typing is a little slow now since I’m trying to get it all right. Typing is the first thing to go after beer hits me)

Naomi Dunford :: I want to stop being in charge. I want to stop the emails coming to my inbox, I want to stop having the hiring of VA’s being my issue, etc. I can still post and show up for the Speak calls and stuff. Also, confidentially, I’m not looking forward to paying my taxes this year. This would deal with that nicely. /over

Also, confidentially, I’m not looking forward to paying my taxes this year.

Dave Navarro :: Oh, wow. Um, let me let this sink in … because this is a bit huge …

Naomi Dunford :: Yeah, well. I’m not a fan of small measures. Do you want me to ramble inanely while you think, or do you want to just think?

Dave Navarro :: Please ramble. I want to hear the internal conversations that are bringing you to this offer

Naomi Dunford :: Sure. First, I don’t know how much money we make. Between $100K and $200k I think. Not sure, though, because when PayPal went batshit on me, I lost access to one account. Although that account was mostly consulting. I just don’t want to do it anymore. I want to speak, and maybe do calls, and JVs. But I don’t want this big THING hanging over me. Ironically enough, I don’t want a business. It’s the business part I hate. I want to be able to make my decisions based on something other than, well, business. (In case you were wondering, I am not under the influence of intoxicants of any kind.) My thinking — and I’m not a detail person, so this would need to be worked out — is that we create a separate PayPal or something and start funnelling shit into there. Then you can just pay me out the way you’ve been doing with HtL, etc. Publicly, for the first while, it will look like nothing changed except you came on board with IttyBiz. Then we can transition into either it just being you or a “team” of which I am publicly a part. /over Basically, I want to get on with saving the world, and this is holding me back.

Dave Navarro :: Whew. Don’t take my silence the wrong way, I’m just wrapping my brain around this.

Naomi Dunford :: No worries. Just, does it sound like something you might be interested in at least?

Dave Navarro :: Oh, it does. It does.

Naomi Dunford :: OK. (getting smokes, brb) back

Dave Navarro :: So … let me think here … so what you’re saying is that a) you are looking for someone to take over the technical stuff and all the day-to-day business stuff, so you can just focus on being Naomi Dunford :: b) you are committed to showing up for SpeakEasy calls and keeping content flowing into it c) you just want to be you, do stuff, and get payments? d) Without all the VAs and support desks and whatnots

Naomi Dunford :: Pretty much, yeah. And not have the tax liability. If I get rid of it now, I can probably get away with pretending like it never happened. (IttyBiz) My payments from you would be more than enough to satisfy their anticipation of my personal income.

Dave Navarro :: Ah. So receiving payments from me would make everything easier from an accounting perspective.

Naomi Dunford :: Yup. And since you’re in the US, there won’t be any historical receipt drama/sale of biz shit. Because technically, it’s not a business. It’s a website.

Dave Navarro :: Ok, I’m a bit confused on the tax liability part. Where’s the issue there?

Naomi Dunford :: I made a fuck ton of money and don’t want to pay tax on it.

Dave Navarro :: You just need purchases to funnel through U.S. first? But wouldn’t the $ you get be the same regardless? Sorry, I’m a bit fuzzy

Naomi Dunford :: I don’t mind paying tax as of today. I don’t want to pay back taxes. OBS alone would be 25K. Like, from the fucking launch month alone. As far as the Canadian government is concerned, I am a moron who will only make $25K a year. If I declare $45k this year, they’ll be delighted. Does that make any sense or should I start at the beginning?

Dave Navarro :: Yeah, please start at the beginning because from this end it soundd like “Hey Dave Navarro ::, take half of my money and this is lopsided in Dave Navarro ::’s favor” So I am a bit confused :-)

Naomi Dunford :: OK. In 2007 I start a website but do not register a business. I make a fuck ton of money under the table and have never once issued a receipt. In 2007 my income is negligible 00 maybe $5K from working with Men With Pens, then JCME. That’s a nonissue. Then, in 2008, I make big money. I still don’t declare it. I’m still fine, because Jamie was officially getting student loans at the time and as far as the gov’t is concerned, we’re just another set of young parents, struggling to make it on student loans. 2009 is now and I still haven’t declared anything. If I get out now, IttyBiz never had to have been my business in the first place. I declare my $5k from 2007, I declare my student loan money from 2008, I declare what you pay me for the remainder of 2009. You get IttyBiz, I get half of the sales of my products and stuff, I save about $150k in tax. /over

Dave Navarro :: Ah, now much becomes clearer

Naomi Dunford :: Everybody wins. Except Stephen Harper, Canada’s esteemed leader. I get to go build schools in Cambodia and maybe your wife stops hating you so damn much.

Dave Navarro :: So … what you’re saying is that what happens technically now is that new Ittybiz payments go to my US PayPal account, and then I pay you and you cheerfully declare the new income

Naomi Dunford :: Pretty much, yeah. Any new stuff on IB is yours, so you can do what you want with it, although I’d rather you didn’t sell it for a few years at least.

Dave Navarro :: Um … how much in monthly Ittybiz product sales are we talking here right now? Just to wrap my brain around?

Naomi Dunford :: I seriously have no idea. Speak makes between 6-8k. (We bled a LOT when I fell off the earth.) Advertising makes 900. That could be doubled in a heart beat, if I got of my ass. Advertising would be yours. Affiliate stuff, if we allow for peaks and valleys, maybe1-2k, although a lot of that comes when I promote your stuff. Naomi did a new design (I’ll get you the link) which is already paid for and could be about a week from going live. It has a much sexier store, which is nice. (Naomi Niles, from Intuitive Designs) You could have the list, as long as I could use it when I needed it. That’s about 8 or 9k, although a lot of that is people on like, 5 lists. http-www.intuitivedesigns.net/ib (That’s the new site, before tweaking.)

Dave Navarro :: (holy fuck that’s hot)

Naomi Dunford :: (I KNOW!) Oh, and we have Megan Morris on a 6 month contract to improve everything and make it not suck so much from a user standpoint. We’ll be adding upsells to the free marketing courses, lacing back posts with affiliate links, stuff like that. /over

Dave Navarro :: Ok, clear me up on what work stuff you would need me to take over to make this happen. Like day-to-day stuff that you’re trying to escape from. Because this still feels scarily skewed in my favor. brb, bathrom break

Naomi Dunford :: Sure. It probably is scarily skewed in your favor, from a long term perspective. My biggest problem is that I simply do not have the capacity to split my focus. Never have. And now I’m totally bored of it. I want a reasonable salary, I want to still be able to do JV shit with you/Sonia/Brian/Charlie to keep things interesting, but I just don’t want to think about it, you know? So I’d want you helping me through the quagmire that is my inbox, even if simply from a motivational standpoint. I’d want you to create a system so that shit is not coming into my inbox and is going into yours instead. I’d need help with random SpeakEasy admin (“Help! My profile says I’m married but I just got divorced! How do I fix it?!”) I’d need you to take over all the little things like getting the Speak audio up, getting the emails out saying “there’s a Speak call this week”, I’d need you to make a coherent posting schedule if that’s what you were into. That sorta thing. I’ll stop babbling till I know you’re back. Oh, and stats: feeds: 5400 alexa 58k

Dave Navarro :: ok, here but thinking – Alison just asked my why my face turned white all of a sudden. brb

Naomi Dunford :: kk. Take your time.

I make a fuck ton of money under the table and have never once issued a receipt.

Dave Navarro :: ok, I’m back

Naomi Dunford :: hey

Dave Navarro :: So, this sounds pretty damn incredible and I’m skewing to yes but I need to let it all sink in

Naomi Dunford :: Sure. Take your time.

Dave Navarro :: Let me ask you this

Naomi Dunford :: Well, not too much time or I’ll give it to Johnny Truant. Shoot. (Kidding, btw.)

Dave Navarro :: Could you write all this down – the very specifics of what you would do and what I would do, so that there’s no assumptions, no confusion, and no drama and get this to me via email, so I could look over it tomorrow when I’m 100% clear headed? Because to a degree, taking this on may be a quit-my-job-ASAP type of thing to support and I need to make sure I’m 100% on top of being capable to support things the way that you need them supported This offer sounds very amazing to me but it seriously is a game-changer thing for me it’s not something I can just take on the side on account of me struggling to balance Launch Coach and Lockheed at the same time

Naomi Dunford :: Understood. And yes, I can do that, but I have to be honest. I don’t know the details because I haven’t thought about them. I haven’t thought about them because I don’t care about them. And I’m not likely to start caring about them any time soon.

Dave Navarro :: LOL, yeah, I was thinking that as I typed

Naomi Dunford :: This means that I can give you something to give you an idea of what I’m thinking of, but I can’t go into too much detail because I don’t know it. Obviously I’ll have to get you more detailed information about income and stuff, but part of this is going to be not really knowing what the fuck has been going on so far. If you take over, I can give you whatever support you need, but under the assumption that there might be shit I don’t know. One thing I’d love it if you’d start thinking about right away… I (read: maybe we) have an ad running on Zen Habits in three days and I don’t know what the fuck I’m advertising. Since HtL is the most saleable product at this point, we might want to use that. Or we might want to just build a list. So maybe you can start thinking about that.

Dave Navarro :: (still here, jsut talking to Alison brb)

Naomi Dunford :: HI ALISON!

I get to go build schools in Cambodia and maybe your wife stops hating you so damn much.

Dave Navarro :: (LOL – she was like “isn’t this the person who had her PayPal acct shut down because they thought she was laundering money?” ) (trying to explain all of that to her)

Naomi Dunford :: (Ahh. OK. For the record, they were proven to be wrong. If it helps.)

Dave Navarro :: (Yeah, she was just like, “well, if you’re sending her all this money from here sales, won’t that raise a red flag?” and I’m trying to explain how everything’s trackable via PayPal)

Naomi Dunford :: Best of luck with that. Not a conversation I’d be very good at having. Explaining isn’t my strong suit. :-D

Dave Navarro :: So earlier, when I was talking details, it was mainly details of stuff you already have to juggle (and hate) for Speak and such that you want to hand off.

Naomi Dunford :: I guess, yeah. Plus future direction.

Dave Navarro :: So that you’re not “Dave, I thought you were going to handle X and Y and Z” and I’m not like “Y and Z?? I didn’t know”

Naomi Dunford :: We’d probably need to discuss the details of it, but it’s not like there’s that much admin. It’s just that I suck at admin. What would probably make the most sense from a timeline perspective is this… I send you an email with the concepts, probably fuzzy on the tactics and strategies. You ask me a bunch of invasive questions which I answer to the best of my ability. We create a document ironing out the details as best as we can.

Dave Navarro :: Yeah, that sounds good

Naomi Dunford ::OK.

Dave Navarro :: Can I say? WOW.

Naomi Dunford :: I’m thinking you’re probably a little overwhelmed, yes?

Dave Navarro :: Yes

Naomi Dunford :: :-D I don’t know if I’m more excited about this, or about imagining the look on your face. Tough call.

Dave Navarro :: LOL

Naomi Dunford :: Is A still there?

Dave Navarro :: Yes

Naomi Dunford :: Cool. Apologize to her from me for hijacking her night.

Dave Navarro :: She said “Tell her that’s ok, Dave would have spent the evening talking to somebody about business anyway”

Naomi Dunford :: Yeah. Jamie’d say the same thing. Now, I know fuck about the bureaucratic side of biz, but based on my very limited knowledge, this would mean you would own IttyBiz.com and all of it’s assets, and they payments you’d be sending me would be royalties, very similar to affiliate payments. Should be relatively painless. OK, I’ll let you get on with your night. We should probably talk soon, though, if about nothing else than the Leo ad.

Dave Navarro :: I guess I need to actually get a business checking account now. I’ve been using my personal :-p

Naomi Dunford :: :)

Dave Navarro :: Though I now have an officlal LLC

Naomi Dunford :: Congrats!

Dave Navarro :: so it’s just a matter of filing for my damn tax ID number Yeah, I think we can iron this out very soon

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet.

Dave Navarro :: So 3 days on the Leo ad?

Naomi Dunford :: One of the benefits is that people are used to getting shit service, so it’s not like you’d need to walk out of Lockheed on Monday.

Dave Navarro :: Worse comes to worst we can give him a HTL banner

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet. I’m pretty sure he’d be cool with changing it if we felt like it.

Dave Navarro :: Yeah, the thing about my schedule is I’m really under the gun for the next 2 weeks, I have 2 mdules to finish up, and I’m trying to get all these people scheduled for the teleseminar. Sonia said yes

Naomi Dunford :: Gotcha.

Dave Navarro :: And since Sonia AND Chris Garrett said yes, I’m going to make a power play for Brian Clark monday

Naomi Dunford :: Ni-ice.

Dave Navarro :: I just sent him a Copyblogger guest post and he was all appreciative

Naomi Dunford :: I think he’s dying. Or having a mid life crisis. Hey, how old are you?

Dave Navarro :: Dude, Sonia MENTIONED the HTL book & it’s driven $8500 in sales. I HAVE to get him on this shit Turned 33 in June

Naomi Dunford :: So you’re not due for yours for a while.

Dave Navarro :: I’m OLD in this space

Naomi Dunford :: :D Dave Navarro :: So BTW< right now here’s the roster

Me You Martine Sonia Chris Garrett Charlie Gilkie Laura Roeder

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet. Does MM have to go right after me?

Dave Navarro :: If I can get Clark in, I’m going to make an end run fr Chris Brogan (oh, any order you want)

Naomi Dunford :: :)

Dave Navarro :: (I know I should put distance between you two)

Naomi Dunford :: I can’t stand the sleazy bastard.

Dave Navarro :: (I know Martine rubs the wrng way sometimes, but for the time being he’s got just a little more pull than me and I want to leverage that) (yeah, he smacks of desperation marketing at times)

Naomi Dunford :: Hey, man. Whatever it takes. He sold 11 OBS in a day and I happily took the money.

Dave Navarro :: Yeah Once this teleseminar is over, I hope I’ll have a shitload more influence

Naomi Dunford :: Anyway, timing wise, I don’t need immediate takeover, and I realize that as it stands, if I were to sell IB, it would be worthless without me backing it up. So the public wouldn’t even know for several months.

Dave Navarro :: OK, so going back to your earlier convo

Naomi Dunford :: We’d definitely ease you in so you could tie up whatever loose ends.

Dave Navarro :: You said “don’t sell IttyBiz for a few years”

Naomi Dunford :: Mm hmm.

Dave Navarro :: Honestly, I don’t see why I’d want to do something like that, it’s a valuable proplerty *property And with you backing it up – by dropping in and being seen there, it can be a huge springboard for other things

Naomi Dunford :: It’s just in case you sexed it up and could score big money for it. I’m not opposed to that in theory, but I’d like to keep it so that I can use it as a platform when I need to.

Dave Navarro :: Oh, shit, platform is EVERYTHING there’s no amount of money that could make having to start a new platform worth it

Naomi Dunford :: The book deal, the press surrounding the non-profit, all of it can be massively improved by spinning it around the blog.

Dave Navarro :: besides, you and me together are good stuff. We can spin this shit for years

Naomi Dunford :: Exactly. Assuming all went well, could you give me a ballpark timeframe for full takeover? a day? a month? a year?

Dave Navarro :: Platform makes making all future money easier oh, let me think … ok, I have like, a month of money in the bank

Naomi Dunford :: More than I got. :)

Dave Navarro :: yeah, would have been more, but Alison’s widom teeth / my wisdom teeth / crown sucks up 3K

Naomi Dunford :: Motherfuckers.

Dave Navarro :: Well, my own damned fault. Should have had it done earlier anyway, ballpark I need 45 days to get through these last 2 mdules and the teleseminar If all goes well with the teleseminar, I’m hoping to make $5-$20K if I can play a really big game so I kind of need to be truly invested in that

Naomi Dunford :: Sure.

Dave Navarro :: because this is the window to make my reputation – i fuck this up and I start back at square one So, 30-45 days from now, when the modules are done and I’m in launch mode, and I have scads of money coming in, I can see giving my notice (holy shit, this is scary, I keep wanting to say “maybe I can give my notice, but I need to show some balls and be straight up and do it)

Naomi Dunford :: How long is your notice?

Dave Navarro :: Well, 4 weeks is standard for a senior manager, but I really don’t want to give that long. But there’s a lot of people who could get pinched if I just up and walk out, since I’m a key player in getting paying deliveries out on time. I’m thinking maybe I could tak something like 2 weeks in office and then last 2 weeks at home, or they can suck it and take 2 weeks w/nothing

Naomi Dunford :: Cool. OK.

Dave Navarro :: And at the same time I have to figure out wat to DO about healthcare and shit I dont’ even know where to start but really, I’m expecting a nice payday from this teleseminar so that makes me breathe easier

Naomi Dunford :: What’s the offer? Do they buy all the pieces or individually? Thoughts on price?

Dave Navarro :: Well, I was thinking $47 for the calls/transcripts downloads, based on the survey. Then an upsell for a premium version, maybe they get the email course plus a physical CD and some bonuses, and that’s $127

Naomi Dunford :: When’s the launch scheduled?

Dave Navarro :: Well, I want to record all the calls by 3rd week of Sep, then do the launch first week of October

Naomi Dunford :: Are you going to cap the buyers?

Dave Navarro :: I have some good ideas for pre-launch content that will make it easy for people to promote

Naomi Dunford :: (The reason I’m asking i because it might be good for the ZH ad in Oct.)

Dave Navarro :: Ah. Wasn’t planning on capping, but using scarcity as in “this is $47 no, or $97 after it’s over” I’m not sure how many I can move because I’m not sure how much the plaers will promote

Naomi Dunford :: Do they get $ or just the ones they sell?

Dave Navarro :: I was thinking people could promote befor the launch, and then they have an excuse to mail again the day their session goes live

Naomi Dunford :: But they don’t get a cut of the base price?

Dave Navarro :: Um, everyone (speakers and regular affiliates) get $ based on their affilaite sales. No up front $

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet.

Dave Navarro :: They get what they promote Yeah I mean, this is a pretty sweet deal for them here’s how it goes 1) I look at their sites, and see what they’re selling the hardest 2) I arrange a 1-hour phone interview with them where I grill them on concepts of the product, so the listener is like “holy shit, I’m learning all this useful stuff” 3) Then, they can promote, saying “wow, there’s this great interview on X” 4) Then, the call goes into the membership site, where people can download … and lo and behold, there’s a link to that person’s product right there (my affiliate link) – so that these people who just got warmed up by the call can be more likely to buy, and everybody wins. The experts give 1 hour of their time, and I do the heavy lifting, And more importantly, all these people who don’t know me already, like Laura’s audience and Chris G’s audience … now they’re on my buyers list

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet.

Dave Navarro :: Yeah. And I do this … maybe every quarter moving forward The More Buyers Every Month Mastermind

Naomi Dunford :: Gotcha. Good setup.

Dave Navarro :: So like if you promoted, you’d get $23.50 per person and if they upsold, like $63.50 or whatever

Naomi Dunford :: It might be good for the ZH ad at an inflated price. It’s a good line-up. Have the ZH people pay $97 maybe, after their own autoresponder of launch content.

Dave Navarro :: You lost me – I’m currently having it go out at $47 – how would I get them to pay $97?

Naomi Dunford :: They go to a different page. Like if you were price testing.

Dave Navarro :: Wouldn’t they be pissed to see it at $47 from everyone else?

Naomi Dunford :: But they wouldn’t. Because they’re strangers. It would’ve already launched to everyone else.

Dave Navarro :: Oh, you mean after the event is over?

Naomi Dunford :: Sort of. I might be crazy, though. I just think, you’ve got 10 hours of expert interviews, you can probably get more than $97 if they hadn’t just been surveyed to give $47.

Dave Navarro :: Well, I do plan on jacking the prce to $97 immediately after the event, because it gives the experts that excuse to give one last mailing

Naomi Dunford :: Sweet. So you could get them into the autoresponder starting October 1st, and by the time they reach the end of the sequence, the price has already gone up everywhere. You’d only have to sell 20. Plus you keep the names.

Dave Navarro :: I’d only have to sell 20?

Naomi Dunford :: To make back the ZH ad money.

Dave Navarro :: ZH ads are $2K?

Naomi Dunford :: Yup.

Dave Navarro :: Holy fuck!

Naomi Dunford :: He only takes one advertiser now.

Dave Navarro :: So wait … would it be wrong for me to ask if there was any way for you to get Leo into this program? Or is that not kosher with the connection you have with him now?

Naomi Dunford :: I thought about it, but I don’t know him at all. I mean, we’ve emailed a few times because when someone says, ” I want to send you two grand”, you listen. But I don’t know. I could always ask.

Dave Navarro :: (Sorry. Leaving no question unasked.)

Naomi Dunford :: Hell, we could let him use an aff link for the ad if he wanted. :)

Dave Navarro :: Because I think if I could get ONE big name – like a Brian, or a Leo or whatnot, this could take off like crazy

Naomi Dunford :: If we made it publicly JV between us, I could probably get Brian, Darren and Leo.

Dave Navarro :: Holy shit, can you offer me any more silver platter shit tonight?

Naomi Dunford :: I told you — I like doing the fun stuff. :)

Dave Navarro :: Because Darren/Leo/Yaro are on my “what would you attempt if you knew you could not fail” list

Naomi Dunford :: Let me think about this for tonight, because if I could get involved, then maybe I could tie my portion into the Cambodia thing. And that would get asses in the seats, too. Would have to think about feasibility on that, though.

Dave Navarro :: ok. because seriously, if you could help me get traction on getting these names in here, that makes quitting that much faster.

Naomi Dunford :: And if you had the charity angle, you could get away with no affiliate payout.

Dave Navarro :: Hmm … well, all the current speakers are expecting their payout

Naomi Dunford :: No worries. We’ll figure something out. I could give just my portion and it’d still be pretty hot. I’m not married to the Cambodia thing on this, though.

If we made it publicly JV between us, I could probably get Brian, Darren and Leo.

Dave Navarro :: Listen, you may already know how much I hate “The Secret”, but for real, I was sitting there 2 days ago saying “something is going to happen to let me quit my job fast and get the big players’ attention.”

Naomi Dunford :: And I’m not trying to steal it from you, either. Just so you know.

Dave Navarro :: So on one hand, I hate when this positive thinkign shit works, but then I love it

Naomi Dunford :: See? Shit will happen if you let it. :)

Dave Navarro :: no, I don’t care if you hijack for your Cambodia stuff – basically here’s the deal By myself, I have limited influence Anything that makes things bigger, I am 100% for

Naomi Dunford :: OK. I’ll see what I can think up.

Dave Navarro :: Anything that makes the angle bigger I still can’t wrap my brain around this

Naomi Dunford :: (Jamie just came in. He says if you think you’re really getting screwed, he’s not averse to small, unmarked bills in the mail.) Alright, I think I’m going to go to bed. Can we keep in touch?

Dave Navarro :: ok, me too. Feeling like magic has happened yeah – what’s the best way for you? You need to talk tomorrow? because shit, you’re already my biggest income surce right now anyway – you get my full attention

Naomi Dunford :: Ahh, yes. Speak sweet nothings to my ego. :) I don’t need to do tomorrow. Generally, nights are a whole lot better because we still have no child care.

Dave Navarro :: ok. I’ll try to keep the computer up and running – if you don’t see me, then can you send me a text message to make my phone ping me? then i’ll know to go to Google chat

Naomi Dunford :: Sure. And nothing’s that urgent. I just want to know that shit is happening so that I can focus on the Cambodia thing.

Dave Navarro :: ok, cool. And I’ll write up some questions to send to you too

Naomi Dunford :: Cool beans. Megan’s off in Pittsburgh (!) this week so I can’t use her for her admin prowess, but I can try and get you earnings data.

Dave Navarro :: ok. going to try and sleep, though I doubt that will happen tonight now this is just too crazy

Naomi Dunford :: OK, cool. Send questions. I’ll need hand holding on what information you’ll need. Go, feign sleep, we’ll talk soon.

Dave Navarro :: ok. rock on

>> bleep bloop

787 thoughts on “Spider Shit Storm”

  1. @Every-Shill-Trolling-for-Naomi

    I haven’t had the time & energy to skewer trolls here in real-time as I’d prefer, especially with the server issues … but catching up on the comments, I really can’t believe the “logic” of Naomi’s remaining shills.

    YES, this transcript does verify that Spiderbitch had big plans to illegally avoid paying taxes.

    BUT … SO WHAT???

    YES, lot’s of businesses illegally avoid paying taxes … and, while it is not the best practice – esp. for someone peddling business advice – you are playing deaf-dumb-and-blind if you imagine that as the primary issue!!!

    For the surprisingly large number of people here who have echoed something like:

    “Well, sure, I see she’s scamming on her taxes, but where’s the proof that her content has scammed me?


    {thanks to @Behind the Facade & @SD for saving me typing)

    Here are two people presenting themselves as knowledgeable, experienced, successful “internet marketers.” Selling high-priced “advice.” And yet, in their own lives:


    Dave Navarro: ok, I have like, a month of money in the bank

    Naomi Dunford: More than I got. :)


    And you can too!!!

    If those two lines of chat aren’t damning enough evidence for anyone & everyone to steer clear of this shitballs & their dubious “business” advice … I don’t know what is!

    Here are some analogies for the mentally challenged {/because I know you’re reading this …/}

    If you are defending Donefor as nothing more than a tax cheat, let me ask you…

    Would you pay big bucks for:

    … a fat-ass personal trainer or fitness coach?
    … a decaying-toothed, foul-breathed dentist?
    … a schizophrenic, maladjusted psychotherapist?
    … a 5-times divorced marriage counselor?
    … a tool-less, shop-less, brainless auto mechanic?
    … an ugly, smelly, herpes-face prostitute?
    … etc etc etc etc

    If you answered yes to any of the above questions … please do continue to support Naomi Donefor & her frauduct peddling scam. You are an idiot, and there are few future joys waiting for you. Your life will continue to magnify the pain, suffering, and disappointment you have felt as long as you keep grasping for illusions.

    For anyone on the fence, I truly hope these super-simplified analogies have helped you understand that this transcript is NOT ABOUT TAX EVASION (tho that is “icing on the cake” as the IMers are fond of saying when recording their conspiracies … er :: “business” meetings).

    The real takeaway here, unless you are a total fucking n00b … is that Naomi Donefor is selling advice on that which she is not capable of doing.

    Why would anyone buy the high-flying, unicorn-riding dream lifestyle Naomi’s pitching, when she CAN’T EVEN GET DAVE TO THAT POINT! {as so appropriately noted by @Slowly Walking}

    Remember, too, that this pattern is not a rare exception, but the rule for this “market place”.

    As @Lanna so thoughtfully noted, the bigger picture to which this enlightens us is the fundamental process by which B-Teamers are fleeced by fellow wannabe’s trying to climb to Syndicate A-Team Status.

    1. @Doctor Mario, being successful at business and having lots of money in the bank are not the same thing. Plenty of successful business people are bad at personal finance. And also, plenty of successful people in general don’t always have lots of cash in the bank – it can all be going to things like the cost of raising a family (especially with school age kids), your mortgage, medical bills (like dental work for example).

      I’m sure everyone here is awesome at it though, and could save up a month of living expenses for an entire family as easily as they take a deep breath.

    2. @Doctor Mario,

      Let’s answer those in order:

      “… a fat-ass personal trainer or fitness coach?”

      No. But that wouldn’t actually be fair of me, because their physical state tells me nothing about their ability to motivate me to get fit

      “… a decaying-toothed, foul-breathed dentist?”

      No. But that would be unfair too, because dentists don’t drill their own teeth

      “… a schizophrenic, maladjusted psychotherapist?”

      No, but how would I tell ?

      “… a 5-times divorced marriage counselor?”

      No. Fair point, but see below

      “… a tool-less, shop-less, brainless auto mechanic?”

      No. But see below.

      I understand your point perfectly, but you are missing the *real* point. Naomi, Dave and the rest of the Third Tribe are offering advice on HOW TO SELL STUFF.

      NOT how to run an efficient business, or pay your taxes, or have a great marriage, or be a good employer, or anything else.

      They’re teaching: how to figure out what customers want and need, how to make products that solve those problems, how to attract people who want those products and how to persuade them to buy them.

      These things, they have both succesfully done. And their products do a decent job of passing on their experience. In your opinion it’s over-priced. That’s just an opinion. I think Apple’s stuff is over-priced – I still buy it. I think the coffee in Starbucks is over-priced, but I don’t carry a flask so when I want a coffee and somewhere to sit – I pay for it. (Actually, I don’t – I go to a scruffy little bookshop that also serves coffee instead. Whatever.)

      My point is – Dave and Naomi are good at selling stuff, and that’s what I wanted advice at, and that’s what they gave me, and it worked. The fact that their personal lives are a mess doesn’t bother me, and the fact that Naomi struggled with the finances and management of her business gives me pause, but doesn’t devalue the value of her products – which were good, not great, by the way – either. If she was my financial advisor, it would be a different story – but she’s not.

      Oh, I forgot –

      “… an ugly, smelly, herpes-face prostitute?”

      No. But I’ve never needed to pay for sex.

      1. @also waiting,

        So Dave and Naomi are good at selling stuff…and their courses are designed to teach you how to sell stuff

        So they are just good at selling stuff

        let me clue you in…

        she’s not good at selling stuff

        She’s not even that good at scamming

        Lying is not selling

        Hyping and making shit up is not selling

        The second there’s a lie involved it is no longer selling but DECEIVING

        Please don’t use the word selling when what it is you are offering is all BS

        Also don’t discount the fact that you don’t no any better

        Lets expand on that a bit more

        talented ‘sellers’ sell high value products and services…want to know why…because they have TALENT and get to choose the absolute best

        You don’t know what value is and wouldn’t know BS when you see it…and coming here when there is PLENTY of actual details of the teachings of these two and claiming its real is dishonest and dangerous to those who dont know any better

        The courses put out by these two are dishonest and not to be trusted

        and lastly they are thinly disguised BIZ OPS…read franks post above

        The Attorney Generals of a majority of the most populated states have a simpler view of what falls under bizop disclosure requirements, which are also REGULATED by the states, in addition to the FTC at the federal level.

        Here’s the bottom line question:

        Is there any implication that a product OR service will increase the buyer’s sales OR help generate more income than the price paid?

        “Implication” can come in the form of obvious words, testimonials, or other references that would lead the average person to come to that conclusion. It can also be in the form of photographs or videos. (Someone standing in front of their mansion referring to their “new lifestyle” but not mentioning specific income would still get in trouble because the implication is there.)

        Marketing and sales materials by their very nature are tailor-made for falling under regulatory requirements.

        The compliance requirements are quite onerous, by the way. FIRST, before any sales can take place, the seller must register with each state in which he/she intends to sell, by filling out all the paperwork required by each AG’s office, and they will naturally investigate you and want personal information in case they decide it necessary to later come after you.

        Then, there are disclosure requirements, which require that you disclose ACTUAL statistics proving the results you claim, clearly showing the percentage of people who achieve those results, and you can hide/minimize NOTHING. This is not the place for advertising.

        After that, you must provide a specified number of actual references (actual buyers) whom potential customers may contact to investigate you and the offer. These must be legitimate buyers that paid for the product/service.

        Lastly, ALL details must be spelled out in writing for the customer. The offer and all terms and conditions, with nothing hidden or obfuscated.

        The customer also has the right to change their mind and receive all their money back even after agreement.

        Bonus tidbit: yes, failure to follow these requirements can, and has, resulted in prison.

        I can think of a number of “internet marketers” who should have NO reason to sleep tonight or any night, after they read this.

        there’s a great line in it:

        It just takes ONE complaint or report to trigger an investigation. Multiply that times every state you do business in, and the nightmares could be many. And THEN there’s still ALSO the FTC.

        I’m sure the authorities don’t see what they put out as education and harmless

        They’re obligated to use full financial disclosures in order to sell this stuff
        want to know why they dont?

        they have none to show where this info actually sold anything but to you

        That’s right…the only thing sold was you

        1. @ Anonymous,

          I don’t agree that what the Third Tribe is selling are Biz Ops, or that they suggest anyone sells Biz Ops

          1. @also waiting,

            These are your words: ‘My point is – Dave and Naomi are good at selling stuff, and that’s what I wanted advice at, and that’s what they gave me’

            Read this again…

            The Attorney Generals of a majority of the most populated states have a simpler view of what falls under bizop disclosure requirements, which are also REGULATED by the states, in addition to the FTC at the federal level.

            Here’s the bottom line question:

            Is there any implication that a product OR service will increase the buyer’s sales OR help generate more income than the price paid?

            The part about this that you don’t want to see is they do prey on peoples desire to profit

            Yes they don’t come straight out and call it biz op but Dave and Naomi CERTAINLY do meet that definition.

            You want to split hairs…call the FTC or the attorney generals office and ask if you sold any one of the products they sold and they will tell you that this is INDEED a biz op

            you can spin it anyway you wnat but their main attempt is you see money in your future so you buy…

    3. @Doctor Mario,

      She also attempted to get her “friend” Dave to take on $150,000 in tax liability, don’t forget. She said she was giving him her website, but essentially tried to sell it for $150,000, without letting him know how much it would cost him.

      To me, that is as damning as their own blogs, where they recommend that people act deceitfully as part of “marketing” whatever “products” are being offered. If the products were worth a tinkers dam, no deceit would be necessary.

      Selling stuff and lying about stuff are not the same thing, even if many folks seem to confuse the two on a daily basis. They are recommending people lie. There is no excuse for lying just to get someone to buy something from you.

      1. @Grover Lembeck,

        I think Naomi’s ham-fisted attempt to dodge her tax bill was ignorance, not being devious. But I could be wrong.

        “They are recommending people lie”

        Where, please ? I’ve listened to hours worth of content from Naomi and the Third Tribe, and no-one has ever recommended anybody to lie about anything.

        In fact, OVER AND OVER I’ve heard 3T people say things like “first of all, you need a great product. There’s no point in selling a crappy product” – or “you MUST provide value”. Over and over and over again…

        Show me something from Naomi or Dave’s site where someone says you should lie.

        1. @also waiting,

          This discussion has come to the point where you need to log off the website, sit back, and turn on your brain for a few minutes.

          We’re back to repeating the same thing {at least} three times.

          Someone trying to dodge taxes and pawn off a fake-business IS being devious.

          Saying your successful when you’re not, and selling products based on fake success IS being devious.

          “Great product” by what standards?

          What are people buying, and at what cost, for what reason?

          How is the value determined?

          Where does the information come from: experience or untested ideas?

          Anything these idiots sell is PROBABLY plagiarized or just made up out of thin air. 100% of the people paying money for it simply “don’t know what they don’t know”. They have no way to gauge the validity of it.

          From what I’ve seen, being on the inside and outside of IM for many years, is that most of these people don’t want to go through the work of becoming an ACTUAL expert at anything except selling BS.

          They all want to pretend they’re “marketing experts” – even when they’re not selling marketing or sales related material.

          The dialog is as follows:

          “I need a way to make money … I know, I’ll create a book on dog training …

          “Should I actually work as a dog trainer for a while? F#CK NO! I’ll just do some article research, read a few blogs and forums then put together a product to pawn off on unsuspecting dog owners.”

          Replace the product and target audience for ANY other and the internal dialog is the same with these bozos.

          But for A-Team, it’s different. They know selling ebooks to dog owners is a bunch of crap because the these shitty products don’t survive the system.

          Negative reviews, difficult SEO, and simple lack of focus/action by the “product” creators (because deep inside they know what they’re doing is nonsense) makes it basically impossible to earn enough to quit any day job.

          Instead, A-Team sells the shovels, priced at 5-10X the typical dog ebook.

          1. @Jaime,

            I’m pretty sure that if anyone bothers to read all my posts they’ll find the only thing I’ve repeated is the question “where is the scam”.

            Whereas I’ve repeatedly been called a liar, stupid, arrogant, sad etc etc and told over and over that it’s impossible to make money selling info products unless you’re a scammer – with no “proof” except Naomi & Dave’s tragic personal lives and half-arsed attempts at tax-dodging.

            The value in *my* products comes from over 10 years experience of the techniques I’m teaching. Maybe I’m the only member of 3T who that’s true for ?

            Maybe, but probably not. Not unless they’re all lying about what their products are.

            Anyway, lunch break over, back to work…

            1. @also waiting,

              There are exceptions to the rule. It may be that you happened to find a way to sell something online in spite of the material presented. I’d say that credits you more than anything.

              1) you stuck with something for 10 years (that’s a big deal)

              2) you want to share your real-life experience with people

              3) you stuck through a learning curve of putting something online, selling it, and providing quality customer support (I’m assuming)

              That’s not how Naomi/Dave earned money or “fame”. They don’t have 10 years of experience in business. They don’t really have businesses at all, actually. That’s the scam. Why is that so hard to understand?

              And yes, I’d say you’re an exception within the 3T crowd.

        2. @also waiting,

          “In fact, OVER AND OVER I’ve heard 3T people say things like “first of all, you need a great product. There’s no point in selling a crappy product” – or “you MUST provide value”. Over and over and over again…”

          THAT’s the point! You are buying the same stuff over and over and over. Where is the value in that repackaged garbage? Does it become more valuable the hundredth time it is said…the thousandth…the millionth…?

          1. @Not an immer,

            You misunderstand me. There are something like 20 or 30 “seminars” on the Third Tribe site, each lasting over an hour and covering a different topic. Peppered through them are reminders of the kind I mentioned. The redundancy is pretty low, although of course there are recurring themes

            1. @also waiting, welcome to the Salty Droid. There are hundreds of posts on scammers, bolstered by people’s experiences and logic & reason in the comments. The redundancy is pretty low, though there are recurring themes, like:

              1) you’re getting ripped off
              2) wake up
              3) get out

  2. Been seeing Naomi’s letter reblogged through the interwebs, so I did what inquisitive people do: googled the back-story. Now I’m here.

    I’d like to see how this one plays out. The hating-successful-females angle she takes sounds some melodramatic bullshit. But, I suppose it is a good smoke-screen if she has been engaging in tax fraud. And, she does seem to be rallying support with her screed. Too many people reblog her story without even considering that it might just be a bunch of llama drama. The internet is a place of great sad/stupidity.

    1. @Human_9038CL9,

      Sad to see anyone else get hurt but these bloggers backed a scam artist who cried wolf

      News flash to all these bloggers – this isn’t going away and ONLY goes deeper.

      Do your research before you trade your rep for a woman who has stolen from woman just to fatten her bank account

      Naomi is getting called out because she creates and sells PHONY get rich courses with all her accomplices

      BTw there is only one kind of get rich quick course…phony

  3. I’ve been leaving comments at blogs where people had rushed to Naomi’s defense yet knew very little of the actual story. One stunning piece of hypocrisy I’ve encountered several times goes something like this:

    “Oh, we just love Naomi with her daring sexy talk of cocks and balls and shaking her scantily-clad thang in men’s faces! You go gurrlll!”

    But when I mention the truth that can be found at The Salty Droid website suddenly these same admirers of Naomi’s soft-porn ramblings turn into the new Victorians:

    “Oh, I can’t read at that terrible robot’s site! He used the F word!” (swoons)

  4. In his toolbox, Dave writes:

    Becoming Incredibly Productive

    I built my 5-figure-a-month business while holding down a day job, driving a long commute, and raising three crazy little kids … and I had to ramp up my productivity to make it happen. Packing in all the things you need to do isn’t easy, but I’ll show you how to make it easier – and to accomplish more than you ever thought possible.


    Wonder if it goes something like this:

    1. Quit real job
    2. Get fake job
    3. Abandon crazy little kids

    I do hope the mother takes a large percentage of his “5-figures-a-month” in alimony and child support because somebody in this story deserves to live the “dream” — but it’s certainly not Dave Navarro.

    1. @OUCH,

      he never made 5 figures a month while working at that job or while raising and living with his kids…he lied about every part of that

  5. @Cosmic Connie,

    I just found your blog and will become a faithful reader.

    “@NewHere, @No Name No packdrill, Here’s where I’m puzzled. Salty may or may not have more information about Naomi and Dave N. But in my view he has already shown ample evidence of ongoing scams that are separate from the tax evasion issues. ”

    See, as much as I’d like to agree, I haven’t found any evidence of ongoing scams here.

    Apart from tax evasion issues, what I’ve seen evidence of is:

    – Naomi sells overpriced marketing-related content to people.
    – Naomi admits in the published chat that she doesn’t like the “business” part of what she does.
    – Naomi doesn’t know how to manage her money.
    – None of the above is evidence of an ongoing scam.

    Personally, I find it laughable that people would buy her stuff and Dave Navarro’s stuff. I’d much prefer they spent their money on books from reputable authors who led successful businesses, but who am I to decide for them?

    1. @NewHere,
      I’m not sure how specific the legal definition of “fraud” is. However, Naomi definitely makes either explicit or implicit claims that aren’t true. She claims to speak with the authority of a well seasoned, successful business person. In realty, her expertise is in writing ad copy–which would explain why she’s so very good at selling people on the idea that she’s the victim.

      (The views of Iam3r are not necessarily the views of the majority of the SD readership) Personally, I see Naomi as someone who still believes that her actions are perfectly proper and reasonable. She wants to put food on the table, etc. But she seems to have no qualms about lying lots and lots in order to make that happen. Why does she do that? It’s confusing and causes me to distrust her. I don’t think Naomi is a very good judge of right and wrong. I get the sense that, like most people in this situation, she’s conned herself along with everyone else.

      1. @Iam3r,

        This. You can sell advice without being successful, but you can’t sell it on the basis that you were successful…when you were not

    2. @NewHere,

      If you had people you care about who were wasting money on this stuff, you would see it differently. The end results are the same as Madoff or Nigerian-princes or any other scammers. It might go more gradually, but eventually all the marks’ money is gone.

      I have a friend who can’t afford to scale up a legitimate business because of spending on this stuff. Another is in foreclosure and still sees putting together an info-product as the best income solution, but still doesn’t have even a website up after three years of talking about it. A third has long since lost home, spouse and savings and remains committed to finishing an e-book started over ten years ago.

      Like you, “I’d much prefer they spent their money on books from reputable authors who led successful businesses,” and often I recommend these. My recommendations goes unheeded. I offer them free marketing advice based on what I’ve learned as a freelancer, at marketing agencies and at Fortune 500 companies. I my advice is ignored.

      I don’t have the appropriate (fake) credentials, and I don’t promise unicorn dreams.

      Twenty years ago most people didn’t view gambling as an addiction. They couldn’t even imagine internet addiction. We need to recognize unicorn-chasing as an addiction so people can start to get the help they need.

      1. @Lanna,

        I understand your point better now. Thanks for explaining.


        “I have a friend who can’t afford to scale up a legitimate business because of spending on this stuff. Another is in foreclosure and still sees putting together an info-product as the best income solution, but still doesn’t have even a website up after three years of talking about it. ”

        I agree these people need help. I am finding it difficult though to make the jump from this terrible situation to Naomi and Dave being scammers.

        It’s hard for me to call someone a scammer just because she offers online resources promising to help people earn money from the Internet, even if these resources are of questionable value and coming from unproven authors.

        See http://www.aliventures.com/happy-birthday-naomi/ for an example of person who is apparently benefitting from Naomi’s learnings.

        I hope more information surfaces to make people realize they are wasting their money with these so-called gurus, but based on what has been made public so far, I can understand clients and fans not buying into this whole idea of this being a scam.

        1. @NewHere ::

          Why don’t you shut up already and read a couple hundred other posts then? This isn’t page one of this book just cause it’s page one to you.

        2. @NewHere,

          What the Droid said.

          The link you provided? It drives home every point we’ve been making.

          *How can you teach what you don’t know?*
          Ali’s website has a huge grammar error in the “Start Here” and AP Style errors peppered throughout. She’s left out the critical writing step of research (probably because she believes in just lying anyway like her BFF Naomi). Who is she to coach people on their writing?

          *What are your professional credentials?*
          Ali completed degrees at nice schools and had an entry-level job checking links and writing client manuals. Where is her experience writing for papers, magazines, websites, etc.? Proofreading experience? Copyediting experience?

          *Doing work for the other slimeballs Salty profiles doesn’t count as credentials.*
          Ali’s written for all the other scuzzy bloggers Salty’s profiled, including but not limited to Problogger, Copyblogger and Men with Pens. Oh, and this guy, who hasn’t been profiled yet but looks like the poster boy for the sticky dirt on bus seats: http://sidsavara.com/

          *What are your teaching credentials?*
          I know enough about teaching to know I don’t have a degree in pedagogy. Doesn’t look like Ali does either. Nor does she list any past experience as a writing instructor or tutor before she made the leap to “coach.”

          *Where are the results?*
          Ali’s friends say nice things in her testimonials, but there’s no mention of tangible results like book sales, product sales, increased blog traffic, more blog subscriptions or insane numbers of blog comments. (Salty can coach you in that, I think.)

          *”How I Make My Living as an Online Writer (And How You Could Too)”*
          Is Ali really making a living, or is she on the dole? Could I give all my money to Ali so I could live on the dole, too?

          *The cost never ends.*
          “Most of my clients go on to book regular sessions.” So, they continue to suck hard despite Ali’s expert advice? Good thing she’s still available for more coaching, for just $79 a session.

        3. @NewHere, that’s your successful site? No offense to the young woman with the blog, but it’s D-team. A writer’s coach? Because they’re hiring writers? When nobody pays to read? As newspapers and publishers crumble?

          And what kind of writing has she done? MFAs with Pushcart Prizes infest Brooklyn like Gambian rats, but she’s a “paid blogger.” Paid by the upstream scamblogs in her sidebar: Problogger, Copyblogger?

          Book deals landed, MS from Columbia Journalism School, bylines in magazines I’ve heard of, then I’ll listen.

          The scam is that Dunford blows happy smoke in the ears of people with little to no chance of turning their passions into viable businesses. So good & trusting people do what they’re told and morph into nicer, less effective clones of the A-team. Just like Navarro, without the flameout.

          They teach the thing they cannot do.

          And they teach it to one another, an incestuous economy of coaches coaching coaches, ebooks bought by ebook authors, all paid for by Lockheed Martin. Look at the comments: of 11, half are Dunford and the author, the rest people with their own coachy “businesses.” Where are the aspiring writers who need coaching? They’re in Brooklyn, writing!

          This young woman deserves no scorn. She likely went in the scam-mill hoping to fund her creative writing career, and came out writing nothing creative at all. Now she writes Naomi-themed fiction about success, and business, and productivity. Sadly, she might even believe it.

          1. @Slowly Waking,

            Great comment, teaching the thing they cannot do is the entire scam in a nutshell.

            And your phrase “MFAs with Pushcart Prizes infest Brooklyn like Gambian rats” will have me chuckling for quite awhile, nicely put.

        4. @NewHere,

          I want to defend Ali here because she wouldn’t be awake in her time zone.

          She has learned from Naomi, but has an entirely different business. No, she is not on the dole. I’ve been on the dole while pretending I had a business, so I can tell.

          She does paid blogging and coaches writers. She is also working on her first novel, has qualifications at a uni level (I don’t recall what, exactly) and works primarily with writers.

          Yeah, we are D-Team. And some of us have made errors in judgement.

          I just wanted to say focus on the people that have done wrong at the B-Team rather then tearing the small fries apart. I can tell you that so many previous supporters of Naomi now dislike her, but no-one will say anything lest the A-team comes down on them.

          Ali is a good person. Instead of criticizing her, find more dirt on the people that have done the real wrongs. There is more out there if you hunt hard enough.

          1. @Jade Craven ::

            You’re fun Jade Craven … brave and nervous at the same time.

            We’re not going to be criticizing Ali … or any D-teamers. But since some chuckle head brought her up … she is kind of a good example.

            What’s worse than taking nice people and tricking them into doing bad things? Nice people take it very badly when they discover their own badness.

            It’s awful … Naomi is awful … EVERYONE on the A-team is awful.

            I’m sorry Ali … blame the chuckle-heads.

          2. @Jade Craven, I respect you for how you’re dealing with all this publicly, and Ali deserves no scorn. That said, criticism’s not scorn. Especially when a good person can cheerfully lead someone to the A-team’s clammy, tentacled embrace.

            You say her business is different than Naomi’s. Which of these sets isn’t like Naomi’s stuff?

            ***Aliventures’ Ebooks***
            “The Blogger’s Guide to Irresistible Ebooks”
            “The Blogger’s Guide to Freelancing”

            ***Hypothetical How-To-Write Blogger’s Ebooks***
            “The Writer’s Guide to Bodice-Ripping Scenes of Smoking Hot Passion”
            “The Sports Blogger’s Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Useful Insults, Based on Geography, Mascots, and Historical Feuds”

            One set’s focused on writing that civilians actually read and write, not just IM recruits. I mean, when this: http://www.aliventures.com/make-a-living-writing/ is on the front page, you know you’ve landed in the Bizarro world of people writing “great content” for “linkbait” so they’ll reach some huge payday in the guru’s distant future.

            Write the novel, get it published, THEN your advice is worth a few bucks. Pay your dues. I do believe she’s a good person. But she’s not (yet) experienced enough, she’s not able to guide people through a real writing career. Being on the D-Team at all is an error in judgement.

            1. @Slowly Waking,

              As a former member of Third Tribe I can tell you they’re selling a dream but very few are profiting. 3Ters are paying for membership, info products and webinars but still can’t afford take a vacation, attend a conference or quit the dayjob. They keep buying and not doing, which is the point. Instead of saving their money for future independence, they’re spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in hopes of becoming rich now. I’m happy I caught on before I went totally broke. I wasn’t going to be one of the people who give up food before giving up 3T.

          3. @Jade Craven,

            Glad to see you realize that the posts here aren’t all about tearing people up…

            People get pummeled because they want to ignore their part in this problem

            you admit it and for that I say shame on you but also good for you

            Be a pillar

            Thanks for your candor

      2. @Lanna,

        Your examples say more about the people themselves than the idea of selling things online.

        Not implementing (no website, not writing the book) is more about distraction and/or procrastination. It really has nothing to do with the scam of “selling the dream”.

        Maybe the problem, from your perspective, is that they are susceptible to scam-sellers. But even if these people were given legit advice from actual business owners, it’s highly unlikely the situation would be any different.

        These issues apply to both online and offline. You know the type, all talk with no action? Big hat, no cattle? It’s universal.

        The business owner who crippled his enterprise should have asked “is this working?” after 3 months. I don’t know the big picture with this example, but again it says more about him than the scammers.

        There is no easy solution to fixing the entitlement mentality, procrastination by habit, or paralysis by unending distraction. Hopefully these folks are learning from their mistakes, but if they’re ignoring good advice time and again … who’s /really/ to blame?

        1. @Jaime, yes and no. You’re close to blaming the victim.

          The Third Tribe, the A-Team, all these scammers create an echo chamber of lies. Inside, you do what they say and get no results. Procrastination’s not the problem. It’s hard to escape from in the same way depression’s hard to escape from. That’s why calling it “internet addiction” makes sense– sometimes you need a wake-up call, but sometimes you need cognitive behavioral therapy.

          The entitlement mentality’s at work in the scammers, not the marks.

          1. @Slowly Waking,

            “I’ve had this book idea for 10 years, but I’ve never written it…”


            “I’ve wanted to build this website for 5 years, but I’ve never done it…”


            “I’ve been doing this in my business for several months and it’s losing money hand over fist…”


            “Thanks for the experienced, credible advice, but I think I’ll ignore it…”

            These statements speak about the person. Anyone reading my comments on this blog know that I’m not defending the scammers. This was just an aside; an observation that any reasonable third-party could make.

            1. @Jaime, I know you’re not defending the scammers. I’ve found your posts valuable and thought-provoking.

              In this case, I think you’re presenting is a caricature of the scammed. The reality’s much more complex, especially given the cult-like nature of the Third Tribe, the Syndicate, the rest.

              But, like you say, an aside to the main conversation.

            2. @Jaime,

              I like “big hat, no cattle.” It’s much nicer than “shit or get off the pot.” However you say it there’s definitely a difference between dreamers and doers. (One personality-typing system calls them “Visionaries” and “Change Agents.”) The dreamers who sit at home and dream have no one to blame but themselves. As for the ones who read free library book after free library book because they feel like they have to get all the information before starting, they’re wasting time but not money.

              When the Syndicate and their ilk get their claws into the dreamers, though, they start wasting time and money. Lots of money.

              They discover a whole new group of friends who don’t ask them pesky questions about how far along their projects are. Their new friends just encourage them to “educate” themselves by reading overpriced e-book after overpriced e-book. It’s like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ldQggHj78I [I know, it’s weird. It’s British.] Since the Syndicate’s so incestuous and affiliate-cross-promote-y, the opportunities to buy never end.

              Not only are they susceptible to scam-sellers, but the more they listen to the scam-sellers, the *more* they ignore legit advice from actual business owners. If I say, “Creating a successful niche affiliate site is a lot of work. You’ll want to get on Google’s Keywords Tool to see how much traffic your niche gets, and then hop on LinkShare and Commission Junction to see how much your target vendors pay out. Then think about how long it takes to write . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah,” why listen to me when Naomi says niche sites are set-it-and-forget-it and make a bunch of money quickly?

            3. @Jaime,

              The video seems to have embedded itself instead of linking, covering up this text introducing the video:

              They discover a whole new group of friends who don’t ask them pesky questions about how far along their projects are. Their new friends just encourage them to “educate” themselves by reading overpriced e-book after overpriced e-book. It’s like this:

            4. @Jaime,

              Whoa, I didn’t know it would embed itself. Here’s the text introducing the video.

              They discover a whole new group of friends who don’t ask them pesky questions about how far along their projects are. Their new friends just encourage them to “educate” themselves by reading overpriced e-book after overpriced e-book.

  6. I am a regular reader at this blog, and a fan of the robot. But your stance that a person cannot make legitimate money online is just ridiculous. You don’t have to chase the unicorns to make money online.

    1. @Donk, That’s not what the douchebags are selling people on, and that is the biggest problem. Besides that, the fact is that most people simply aren’t equipped or are incapable of chasing non-unicorns as well. For the vast majority, Salty is unquestionably right. That makes it a pretty good rule of thumb if your objective is to spare people pain.

    2. @Donk ::

      What percentage of people can have real :: lasting :: success on web?

      What percentage can’t?

      Tell a person “you won’t be able to make money online” … and you will almost always be right.

      Tell a person “you will be able to make money online” …. and you will almost always be wrong.

      I hate being wrong.

  7. @New Here: Sorry, I’m not buying the Ali success story. Benefiting? Maybe. In the same manner the rest of that niche is benefiting from their frauducts. All you have to do is look in the sidebar to see she’s also a Copyblogger and Men with Pens drone.

  8. I’ve been lurking in Salty’s site for the last few months, read this on and off and I agreed with most of his exposes. Hence, my refusal to buy anything or everything produced by Brian Clark (or being 3Triber for that matter). But anyway, I have another writing business, I have a decent job and I’m not keen on being an IMer.

    I WAS also in the mailing list of Naomi’s (but didn’t buy anything from her). I never viewed her as a scammer but I just can’t get myself to buy her products. But what finally pushed me to unsubscribe was when I received an e-mail about death threats vs her and that women bloggers were being victimized, etc. I ALMOST retweet it and e-mailed then whole thing. HOWEVER….being a journalist (cynical, had to hear both sides), I investigated the matter first, and was really mad after learning that the mean sites she cited were not really “mean” ; second – there’s no death threat and third this was not a misogyny issue at all!!!

    Now, I’m not supposed to comment here because I figured I’m not an affected party at all. What pushed me to comment was when I read all those hateful and unfair comments about Ali Luke and I want to say a few words in her defense.

    Yes, Ali believed in Naomi, she considered her a mentor. Whatever. That’s her opinion. That may sound stupid to you but I believe that Ali is intelligent enough to decide for herself.

    I consider Ali my (young) mentor, a writing coach I consult from time to time. I chose her to be my (occasional) coach because I wanted some help to improve my travel blog. I consulted her because I like what and how she writes (this to me is the first and most important qualification of a coach), she really made a living out of freelance blogging. No, she didn’t became a problogger via Adsense. And she didn’t earn money writing for Copyblogger or Men with Pens (disclosure: I also guest posted once for MwP). She just guest posted there. She earned her dues writing for blogs that actually hired staff bloggers – like Dumb Little Man and Pick the Brain. Ali also has good academic credentials for a writer (AB English (Honors), Cambridge and MA in Creative Writing at Goldsmith College).

    So yes, @slowlywalking, I believe Ali earned her dues. Given her experience, writing style and credentials, she has every right to write, publish and sell ebooks on being an effective blog writer (I bought one e-book and one writing course – they’re both good and reasonably priced). She has every right to coach people who want to improve their blogging. That she is a nice person, is of course, a PLUS (after all, would you deal with an asshole no matter how good he is? I won’t.).

    But that’s beside the point. The point here is I think she’s selling products and services which can stand scrutiny, she has the creds and earned her dues, and it’s cruel and unfair to drag her into this.

    BTW, I emailed her this link and she told me that she’d rather not comment.

    1. @Prime, hateful & unfair?

      I mentioned twice that she deserves no scorn. As SD said, “We’re not going to be criticizing Ali … or any D-teamers. But since some chuckle head brought her up … she is kind of a good example.” After all, she asks publicly for money.

      If you’re a happy customer, good. I would ask for more credentials, partially because they’re so easy to come by in the field. My first writing teacher had a book out from Bloomsbury, one from Counterpoint; my second had a run editing a magazine in New York and eight books out. (And you mention not hiring assholes– unrepentant asshole Harlan Ellison has a long track record as a magnificent writing teacher from his years at the Clarion Workshop and his Odyssey Workshop. I once met a former student’s daughter; she credited Ellison with turning her father’s career around, so that he now is a New York Times bestselling author of fiction. Most aspiring writers need an asskicking.) My teachers all openly admittedly they could not help with the business side, so we focused on the writing.

      But her site focuses a lot on the business. Naomi lite. I hope she takes this as constructive criticism, as it’s intended.

      1. @Slowly Waking,

        Her site focuses on the business of writing for a blog – because it is a new industry. There are people who make a legitimate business and/or career out of blogging because most businesses now use blogging for marketing. Even the mainstream media, which I’m a part of, uses blogging as a way to disseminate reports.

        I appreciate the fact that Ali is offering something that focuses on the business and not just the writing side of it. I already explained that she has the creds to do it. You obviously don’t want to accept that she has the creds. I may not agree with that opinion but I respect your right to write that opinion. I also, frankly, do not like the tone of arrogance in your comment. But it’s ok, I respect that. We’re all adults here.

        And since you brought up credentials and being an asshole…. well, based from my 15 YEARS of experience as an (award winning) journalist, being mean or an asshole has nothing to do with being good with your job or vice versa. Most of the nice people that I worked with may be strict but they’re not assholes. They are decent and give positive criticism.

        I don’t care what you say about ass kicking. Assholes are assholes and most of them are not good in their jobs and use their so-called talent as an excuse for treating people like shit. I had the misfortune of working with some of them.

        BUT…..I was lucky enough to get the chance to be mentored by some of the most well respected journalists including an award-winning INVESTIGATIVE journalist who now teaches at THE Columbia School of Journalism; a business journalist who writes for The Financial Times; and a former senior editor of Dow Jones Newswires. They have one thing in common – they are nice people who get mad at me sometimes for fucking something up but they are nice, decent, good (excelled!) in their job as journalists.

        And since you talked about credentials, I find it odd that you comment here but decline to use your real name. I used my real name because I believe in what I’m saying and stand by my opinion.

        Ali doesn’t read these comments (or Salty’s blog for that matter). She told me why and after reading all these comments here, now I understood. Some comments are worth reading. Some are just trash. I think she’d rather save her time and just don’t read anything.

        1. @Prime, did you see my reply to “I was here before” below? I said I hoped to move away from her and generalize to the big scam at hand. And I do, so this is the last I’ll say anything even tangentially related to her, and you can have all the last words if you like.

          First, this: “I already explained that she has the creds to do it. You obviously don’t want to accept that she has the creds. I may not agree with that opinion but I respect your right to write that opinion. I also, frankly, do not like the tone of arrogance in your comment. But it’s ok, I respect that. We’re all adults here.”

          Haha, thanks for condescending to accept my arrogance. I think you’re finding arrogance I don’t intend. Like I said, if you hired her and were pleased, fine; I wouldn’t because I would ask for more experience from an editor or reader. I have better creds at this point. Look, you do too, if you’re an award-winning journo with 15 yrs down. So what’s to keep you from buying all her ebooks, booking a couple sessions, then turning around and repackaging everything she’s done, making slight improvements and enough changes so it’s not worth it to sue, and then running her out of business with your superior cred? NOTHING is stopping you– but your ethics and core humanity. Unfortunately, some people lack both, and a common “teaching point” from IM scammers is to do just what I described.

          And that leads to the ultimate problem with the business model and the advice behind it: low barriers to entry mean increasing competition and decreasing returns… a problem the Financial Times et al. struggle with now. If newspapers and book publishers haven’t found a workable solution, I’m not sure why Naomi Dunford etc should get my ear. I’ve seen more than one pro journalist struggling to come up with a way to have a job in five years. Sometimes they mention being more “entrepreneurial,” “making your name your brand,” and once in a while one quotes some IM guru as though the happy-smoke “thank you economy” is going to pay for investigative, long-form journalism at the Baghdad bureau. It’s harrowing.

          Next, our aside: what I call assholes, you might just call strict. That author’s daughter *loved* Harlan Ellison, but he’s definitely an asshole. The writing workshop cliche “kill your babies” began because writers love their every precious sentence. The main point is that some people are highly demanding, highly-qualified pros. Other assholes, like Naomi Dunford, treat people as disposable, like she did to Dave Navarro.

          Finally, the reason I don’t use my real name? I got scammed by some of these fuckers, and I don’t trust them not to have my home address/emails/CC#s and retaliate in some way for openly saying what I think of them. Far-fetched, but these are bad, bad people, and I don’t need the worry. Whatever shred of value I can offer has nothing to do with me being “Sam Rodgers” as opposed to “Slowly Waking,” my consistent handle. I try to make up for it by writing heartfelt, detailed posts with as much civility as I can muster. Yeah, it fluctuates. Some people say it’s trash, but everyone’s on a different point on the path from scammed misery to beautiful, beautiful freedom.

          I hope you get something from the exchanges here, even the ones you don’t like. Take care.

    2. @Prime,

      Ali has obvious grammatical errors on her first page. That seems odd for a “(AB English (Honors), Cambridge”.

      Color me not suprised that she’d rather not comment on Naomi’s death threat allegations.

    3. @Prime ::

      I am also sorry she got dragged into this … but she did. She is offering herself and her service in commerce though … so it is appropriate … and to be expected.

      Her site is a clone of the badguy’s sites. They are going to eat her like they ate Dave. Eating people is all they do.

      Read back over the archives of the James Ray trial :: and see how many of the people in the Death Lodge had stuck with the James Ray program due to their genuine love of the other truly good people in the group.

      It was hard to step over Kirby or Liz and leave … because Kirby and Liz were so beautiful and lovable. James Shore died because he wasn’t going to leave other good people to die … he already semi-hated James Ray.

      You feel better about doing bad things if you see other good people doing bad things. It is an essential part of the trick … a very cruel part … which they know they’re doing but you don’t know they’re doing.

      Always wrap your turds in bacon :: or no one will ever bite.

        1. @Prime, I hope you read SD’s entire reply, and are selectively choosing to ignore the bulk of it (this isn’t really about Ali’s website), because you seem to be missing the important bits. If I knew you were doing it on purpose, as a evasive rhetorical technique, I’d feel much better about your participation in this conversation.

  9. I’ve been trying to think of a way to react to this entire shit storm of a conversation over the past few days.

    The conversation here has been earth shaking. I’m a moderator of Third Tribe, I’ve guest posted with @Michael Martine, I work with Johnny Truant on The Badass Project, Chris Brogan has been an affiliate on an ebook of mine, I’ve bought training from Frank Kern and Kevin Nations, I bought How to launch by Naomi and Dave…

    …and I agree with a lot of what’s being said here.

    I work with actual clients, none of which are in the MMO space but in the commercial space.

    I coach students too who are looking to “Make money online” but what I teach is how to make money using the internet as a lead generation source, to sell actual products or services to businesses on the other side.

    In the past two years, I have gone from making absolutely nothing to making 6 figures, and am on track to make 7 next year, and all of it is from applying techniques different techniques I’ve learned from a good portion of the targets of your articles.

    Now, do I believe that Third Tribe first and foremost a place where it’s founders get to make a revolving income, simply because people believe they get to have one on one access to “experts”. Yes.

    But I’ve also met incredible people on the inside. My membership is also free because I was the first person to say “WTF is wrong with this community?” which got the entire community thinking (and ultimately caused people to leave)

    Do I believe that the primary target market are people who are vulnerable and many of the products are built to expose that vulnerability for the creators to make more money. Yes. (but what product isn’t)

    Do I believe that everyone has their community’s best interest at the forefront of their mind? No. Not even a little bit, I’ve pushed and scraped to become one of the “cool kids” for the past two years, and while I’ve been told “I want you to win” from one of the “top guys” the amount of reciprocity from the big names has not been given back.

    Doesn’t matter, and it doesn’t stop me.

    There’s a high level of personal responsibility that needs to be taken here when buying into anything.

    There is a lot of good advice that’s out there, but it’s not one size fits all, and the only application doesn’t have to be selling information to other marketers. (Yes I do that, but it’s only one portion of my business)

    When I first got started, I had literally gotten fired from my job over a pair of pants and had nothing to start with.
    I read, and I read religiously. I found Copyblogger, I found Chris Brogan, I found Rae Hoffman, and I used everything I read combined with my own acting experience to develop *_my own_* approach.

    I don’t have a big following. I am happy when my website get’s 100 visitors a day. I don’t participate in the circle jerk mentality. I don’t blindly follow everyone’s advice. I take it for what it is and integrate it into myself. You can’t use other people’s words and expect to get other people’s results.

    Scams or not, I’ve learned a lot from what these people have to offer. Doesn’t mean I don’t think there’s a lot of bullshit. A lot of it is.

    But there’s also some merit to becoming a 5 million a year company like Copyblogger Media in 5 years, and there’s a lot to be said about many of the other bigger names creating multi million dollar businesses as well. If Chris Brogan wasn’t able to get actual measurable results, he wouldn’t be consulting with the likes of Disney and Sony, who could spot a scam artist from a long ways away.

    There is a high level of personal responsibly that needs to be taken when it comes to making your own future.

    That being said, I do appreciate what you’re doing here Salty, because it shows the other side of the coin which is absolutely necessary. Too many just believe what they’re told, without thinking about the other side of the argument. You bring balance to the force.

    1. @Tommyismyname,

      I like the basic principle of what you’re saying, but my BS detectors go off when people make income claims – especially yours.

      Zero to 6 figures in two years? Selling information? What are the reviews/results from actual customers? More details please.

      Also, I think it’s strange that you’d be comfortable associating with Third Tribe, Copyblogger, and other parties mentioned in light of what you stated. Does this represent a change of heart?

      1. @Jaime,I work with clients in the commercial space who pay me on a monthly retainer, as well as teach an information course that helps freelancers get more comfortable charging what they’re actually worth, as well as refining their services to actually provide transformative value to the person they’re working with, not just charge more money for a polished piece of turd service.

        My comfort level because I do believe there is value in what many of these people teach, if you’re willing to take action. Copyblogger teaches copywriting techniques for free, there is nothing scammy about saying a good headline is the first step to selling stuff. Magazines and newspapers have been doing it for years.

        Once you start getting into the paid products, you have to always look at it as a potential waste of money. I’ve met some very awesome people in Third Tribe, and managed to get a free membership after stirring the pot, to get people to make the most out of it for themselves. I never went into 3T thinking it was going to solve all of my problems, and I don’t believe every claim that’s ever made. I also don’t throw my dry clean only shirts into the washer and dryer expecting they don’t shrink.

        That your BS detectors go off when someone makes an income claim is perfectly reasonable, and it should. That means you’re not a sheep. Just keep in mind, I’m not trying to sell you anything, and I’m not really coming to the defense of anyone in this conversation. I believe there’s merit on both sides and I’m glad that Salty is able to get people to think.

        I read both sides because that’s the only way I can gain a fully balanced perspective.

        1. @Tommyismyname, Sure you not really here to raise your profile and to drive some traffic back to your blog? ;-)

          1. @I’m Perry Belcher and I’m BACK!,

            lol, no guarantees, but I’m not sure that this would be really the sort of attention I want to bring on myself.

            I’m “the enemy” here by default, and I’m not saying my own tribe is perfect… so… not sure if it’s really raising my profile at all :-P

        2. @Tommyismyname, You caught my interest when you said you teach an information course “that helps freelancers get more comfortable charging what they’re actually worth.” That was a big issue for me when I started freelance writing many years ago. I finally got to the point where my fees were more in keeping with market rates.

          But the market is changing, and the issue of what a freelancer’s services are “worth” has taken on new significance in recent years. These days, more and more potential clients are opting for the Writers-R-Us services where they pay absolutely bottom dollar for what is often sub-par writing. (Read Steve Salerno’s September 4 post on SHAMblog for an example of the results of this mindset.)

          Many folks don’t want to shell out for expertise and years of experience and actual writing skills; they’d rather go to a cheap labor pool where people furiously compete for the opportunity to write a keyword-rich but basically nonsensical article for a penny a word or less, or an entire nonfiction book for $300 or less. Writing skills have been devalued, like so many other things today.

          Not knowing anything about your course, I would say that it’s a good thing to encourage freelancers to charge rates that are fair to them, as long as you’re not encouraging them to gouge their clients, of course. Obviously there has to be a balance. My point is that in in today’s marketplace there is so much cheap and crappy labor available that competent freelancers often face a real challenge. I wonder how you address this issue. (Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I’m curious.)

    2. @Tommyismyname,

      How will you make seven figures this year if you’re happy when your website gets 100 visitors in a day? In order for that to work, you’ve got to net $27.39 per visitor. You really do that?

      You started two years ago. And you’ve been charging people for your advice for the best part of those two years. How do you justify charging people for coaching, when you had no real track record of success, and you were nothing more than a rank beginner yourself?

      And what legitimate business did you launch this year, unrelated to MMO, that will multiply your income by 10x?

      1. @, To clarify, my money comes from coaching and client work. To date, both have been through word of mouth references.

        I blog so if there are any doubts about the legitimacy of what I’m saying, I have an archive for prospective clients to read through, but the reference has come from someone I’ve worked with previously. In short, my blog is not a “lead generation” source. My customers are.

        I started two years ago by scraping the freelancing boards on Get a freelancer and elance for jobs that would pay enough money to get my rent. I did not sell information, I sold actual work and results (which is where my track record and word of mouth customer base has come from)

        I have a couple of businesses this year, one is coaching for freelancers to make more money off of their services (because many do undercharge for their work, and get taken advantage of by the person who needs the service), the other is a software that aims to simplify the multivariate split testing process of Facebook advertising.

        1. @Tommy Walker,

          So, you coach freelancers on how to make more money. That’s a “making money” niche.

          And, you have a software product that advertisers use to split-test on FB. Tell us– what % of your customers are the kinds of small advertisers who are struggling to make money online?

          Your businesses look like classic examples of businesses that take advantage of the victims. You sell to struggling freelancers, and to (yes, association with Naomi make you guilty until proven innocent) struggling beginner Facebook marketers.

          1. @,

            I know, I said that already…

            “I coach students too who are looking to “Make money online” but what I teach is how to make money using the internet as a lead generation source, to sell actual products or services to businesses on the other side.”

            Many freelancers are seriously undercharging for their services, and getting taken advantage of on the other side.

            Perhaps I should clarify though, the freelancers I work with are not struggling. I make a point through my own lead generation that they already have businesses that are sustained, they’re looking to scale up without killing themselves. I do have minimum requirements, and don’t work with just anybody, and have been upfront with people if I don’t think they need my service.

            Pricing isn’t about “push until the market pushes back” that’s stupid and greedy.

            Pricing is more about “How much money will you save, or earn the company that you’re working with?” If you can’t answer that question, than you don’t know you’re own value, and you can’t just make up your own price based on nothing.

            As far as the software is concerned, it’s still in development. As far as my customer base is concerned, I’ll only be targeting businesses who are already advertising on Facebook and need a tool for easier ad management and testing, not noobs who will rely too heavily on the software.

            My businesses do look like the classic examples, however I am very selective about who I target, and how I get my leads. I don’t make a huge deal about how awesome I am, and how much I’ll “change your life”, and my coaching so far has been all word of mouth. There’s a lot about the “product launch” system I disagree with, and much of which I have tried and will never do again, because it didn’t work for me, and I didn’t like it.

    3. @Tommyismyname, listen to yourself.

      “Do I believe that the primary target market are people who are vulnerable and many of the products are built to expose that vulnerability for the creators to make more money. Yes. (but what product isn’t)”

      Most products sold on earth.

      Your rationalization of immoral behavior is common among infomarketers, so I’m not surprised you picked it up along the way.

      1. @Slowly Waking,

        I’m not rationalizing. I’m not even disagreeing that going after a target market with an exposed vulnerability is immoral, but it does depend on how you go about it.

        To your point about the immoral behavior and vulnerability targeting being applicable to only info marketers, I would like to walk through a few other industries and see if that statement still reigns true.

        Fast food, they promise you convenience, they promise you happiness, everyone in their commercials are smiling, thin happy people. Eat fast food as often as you see the commercials and you’ll become overweight and have more problems with your health beyond obesity.

        Any ab machine ever marketed, super cut models that have abs you could grate cheese on. If you buy it, but don’t use it the way it’s intended, you will remain flabby.

        Weight loss, eat this food, get these results. If you stray just a little, no results for you.

        Tobacco, at one point advertising would tell you which doctors recommended what cigarette. Later they would sell you on a lifestyle that made you more awesome and cool to be around, yet, even knowing that smoking can lead to cancer, heart problems, and fatal damage, people still buy AND many tobacco companies sponsor recovery programs as well.

        My point isn’t about justifying immoral behavior, it’s about being able to think for yourself and take action.

        To be successful running your own business, online or otherwise, it requires discipline, not blind trust, and definitely not making excuses.

        You can lose weight by eating a balanced diet, you can quit smoking by making the decision to not do it any more, you can run, you can push yourself to be something more, and yes you might need someone else to help you along the way. Just because you hire a personal trainer doesn’t mean you get thinner. You have to work at it.

        That goes for both sides.

        1. @Tommy Walker, that’s a lot of empty catchphrases.

          “it does depend on how you go about it. ”

          “My point isn’t about justifying immoral behavior, it’s about being able to think for yourself and take action. ”

          “To be successful running your own business, online or otherwise, it requires discipline, not blind trust, and definitely not making excuses. ”

          Definitely not!

          You sound like an infomarketer. But when you hang around infomarketers all day, read infoproducts, and model their behavior, you end up being just as full of shit.

          Think for yourself and take action, so you don’t spend the rest of your life scamming. You say you make six figures? You’ve got 400ish Facebook fans. If you make $120K and half buy your stuff, each one’s ponying up $600. Typical results: are they gonna make that back?


          Or are you just a tax on somebody’s hopes & dreams?

          1. @Slowly Waking,

            I don’t use my blog, or my Facebook page as a lead source. I don’t follow many of the practices for product launches. My money comes from client work, and coaching, I’ve said that already.

            There are more ways to make money than you are opening your eyes too.

            If you think “thinking for yourself and taking action” is an empty catch phrase, you need to redirect your energy here to spend more time on Elance or Get a Freelancer putting the time in with proposals.

            1. @Tommy Walker, did you just give me business advice? On where to get clients?


              since that’s what I’m here for

              Take a break from the cult, open your own eyes.

    4. @Tommyismyname,

      Lets just start with this comment:

      “Do I believe that the primary target market are people who are vulnerable and many of the products are built to expose that vulnerability for the creators to make more money. Yes. (but what product isn’t)”

      Your true worth to your client is determined how much more you give in value than you take in payment.

      There is no value if the sole purpose of your product is to exploit the clients vulnerabilities

      To get a clear prospective on the word client let me give you a CLEAR definition

      Client- under the protection of…think of a lawyer…the client is under the legal protection of the attorney

      how are you protecting someone when you build a product to EXPOSE a vulnerability

      products are created to serve people

      Your compensation is determined by not only how many you serve but how well you serve them

      tell me how you put your client under your protection, how ell you serve them if your idea is that every product is designed to EXPLOIT the buyer

      Here’s a simple fact that you have all convinced yourself of…you matter

      You haven’t a clue what business is all about if that is how you see creating a product…you all pat yourself on the back and tell everyone about each others ‘expertise’

      You matter to those that are getting those pats in order to get pats back…and to people who DON”T KNOW ANY BETTER

      1. @,

        I see your point, and I personally only work with established business owners who have been at business for at least 2 years with an established income, so I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying applies to me specifically.

        I agree, products are made to serve people.

        Compensation should absolutely be determined by how well you serve them, but I would also suggest by how much value you bring to the table.

        Let’s say for instance I created the “automatic checkout” you find at the grocery store (I didn’t) and I was trying to figure out how to price the thing.

        I could look at it from the perspective of how much time it cost me to make, develop, parts etc… and price it from there…

        or I could let my grocery store client know that this product will replace at least a cashier and a bagger, never call out sick, never requires insurance, won’t ask for holidays, doesn’t cost time and resources to replace (just give me a call) etc etc…

        Asking them questions that find about how much it costs to have have a part time bagger, how much money they spend on insurance, how many sexual harassment lawsuits they’ve had and so on is not exploitation.

        When you find out that one employee can cost triple what they’re paid, pricing that machine that is in accordance with how much is being saved in the long run helps the company take their investment more seriously. And for you it’s a much more sustainable business.

        Many freelancers I’ve talked to charge about 1/6 what they’re actually worth. If you charge 2,000/month and bring the client $12,000, how are you ever supposed to be taken seriously? Furthermore, if you want to make $12,000 yourself you have to 6 times the amount of work with 1/6 the mental bandwidth to do it.

        The idea isn’t to “expoit” the buyer, only help them realize the problem is bigger than they might realize. Doctors do this to help you see the full extent of what your actions have been. Lawyers do this too.

        I pat myself on the back, and very much run the risk of being kicked out of my own tribe for what I have published here, but like I’ve said throughout, there is a level of personal responsibility that needs to be had when it comes to whatever you purchase.

    5. @Tommyismyname,

      Chris Brogan was hired as a consultant by The Walt Disney Company?! Oh, wait no, actually he was invited by blogging moms to speak at a convention that was held at Walt Disny World, not to provide business advice to Disney executives as your post implies. That kind of exaggeration of credentials/experience is a perfect example of why your fellow tribesmen are considered scammers.

      1. @Shorty,

        Good point, I was mistaken. My memory did not serve me correctly. He was also invited by Disney to participate in a few other things, but not consulting.

        Thanks for pointing that out :-)Sony is a client though.

        1. @Tommy Walker,

          I was picking up what you were putting down.

          You made some good points.

          I checked out Chris Brogan based on your touting of his track record.

          You blame your memory. Really?

          You brandished those two credibility boosting facts about Chris Brogan with such an air of authority.

          Chris Brogan was your man in a white lab coat.

          You used his name and Walt Disney’s to make me question your argument less.

          In marketer parlance, you attempted to make me transfer my feelings about credible sources to you.

          You misled me.

          I hate you.


          P.S. Telling freelancers to charge what they’re worth is laced with MMO.

          What are you really saying? Think it over as you carefully read each word and you’ll know I’m right behind these words.

          More than half of the dolts you instill with that mantra aren’t worth more than $40 an hour. Telling them that they are is telling them what they want to hear, isn’t it?

          Real coaches don’t do that. Real consultants don’t do that. MMO coaches do that.

          Listen, the more you deny it, the more you know it and the more you know I know it.

          Frankly, now is the time for you to have the heart to have a heart to heart and gaze at the man behind the man in the mirror.

          Really Tommy. Have a look at him before it’s too late.

          1. @You got got …,

            Yeah, should have double checked those, I do blame memory, but he is a NYT best selling author… (though not nearly redeeming enough.) I’m focused more on my own business than Chris’

            I didn’t say it wasn’t MMO, but it’s about charging what you’re worth. My methods use more direct advertising than “Write a bunch of content and convert people into sales…” That’s too haphazard, and there’s no good way to benchmark success.

            My coaching students however are good at what they do, and I am selective about who I work with.

            You’re right, many aren’t worth more than $40 an hour, but I also do my best to not attract them.

            I tell my clients and my students what they’re doing wrong, and how they can fix it. just blasting information at them and hoping that they “get it” doesn’t help anyone.

            If you read my original comment, that would be the major criticism of my tribe.

            I play both sides of the fence here, because there is value on both sides. Ultimately I may not “fit” in either place, and could very well get kicked out of the other side. Regardless, I think both sides need to open their eyes a little more.

          2. “Good point, I was mistaken. My memory did not serve me correctly. He was also invited by Disney to participate in a few other things, but not consulting.

            Thanks for pointing that out :-)Sony is a client though.”

            Haha. Oh man. You started off so charming, too. Then the bullshit starts churning. It’s automatic at this point. You’ve been infected. I don’t even think you know it, yet.

            There is something particularly sad about a bad guy who genuinely wants to be accepted by the good guys.

    6. @Tommyismyname,

      Hi Tommy,

      As a fellow 3T member, your analysis sounds pretty damning. I’ve been busy arguing some of the things you say aren’t true over the last couple of days. So, I’m curious about two of your points:

      “Do I believe that the primary target market are people who are vulnerable and many of the products are built to expose that vulnerability for the creators to make more money. Yes.”

      You mean the Third Tribe specifically ? Or just MMO sites in general ?

      “Scams or not, I’ve learned a lot from what these people have to offer. Doesn’t mean I don’t think there’s a lot of bullshit. A lot of it is.”

      You mean stuff that’s deliberately misleading ? And causes people harm ? Or just too much “hot air” ?

      1. @also waiting,

        As a Triber, I would encourage you to use your real identity here. There should be nothing to hide.

        I’m not meaning to be damning, so I do apologize if it was taken that way.

        Partially I think that applies to Third Tribe, and partially I think that applies to MMO in general. Within the tribe, we’ve had various discussions about the community, why people leave, what people are getting out of it, etc… If you’re not participating, and you’re still paying your membership fee, and what you’re complaining about doesn’t change, the founders make money regardless. Whether you choose to take action on stuff, or not, the founders make money. They’ve set up a business model that works for them, if you reverse engineer it, you can do it too and it can apply to many different fields, not just MMO.

        The point of my comment is that really all of it is exactly what you make of it. Third Tribe is a wonderful place when you use it to the fullest, forums, seminar content, Q&A sessions etc… but if you’re only participating at a fraction of what’s there, well… it’s not going to work out too well. But it was built as a place where different business owners at all levels could meet up, and some may have had very different expectations going in than others.

        To your second point, no, I don’t believe any of it is deliberately misleading or causes people harm. I do think there is more hot air than there was before, but I also know on the other side there’s a lot of “This takes work” being told. But getting people to the point where you are telling them “This takes work” might be able to be more straightforward.

        I feel like the launches are more hypey than necessary, but overall I know I’ve learned a lot, because I chose to really integrate the stuff into what I was already doing. If I didn’t already have a business and experience, who knows if I’d feel the same way.

        I’m intentionally not taking sides here though, because I think both sides offer something valuable.

        At the end of the day the only person who will improve my business is me.

        1. @Tommy Walker ::

          I appreciate you using your real name … otherwise I’m not impressed.

          So you worked at Best Buy or its equivalent :: and now you charge money to tell other “freelancers” how to charge more money.

          And that makes sense to you?

          Cause to me it sounds like brainwashed stupidity.

          You say you don’t use the Internet to generate leads :: you use “word of mouth” :: yet you say you are “targeting” only real businesses. How pray tell do you “target” “word of mouth” lead gen?

          I have gone from making absolutely nothing to making 6 figures, and am on track to make 7 next year, and all of it is from applying techniques different techniques I’ve learned from a good portion of the targets of your articles.

          Lawyers are the highest paid members of the service and consulting industry. In fact :: law is one of the highest paying professions … period. There are high barriers to entry :: and a legally enforced monopoly. The profession has existed since nearly the founding of civilized civilization … and during those thousands of years it has been framing {and marketing} itself as indispensable to the operation and function of government and commerce.

          Partner’s in the country’s top ten law firms can expect to make barely seven figures a year on average :: but the vast majority of lawyers will never even come close to that. 99% of the people who set out to become big firm partners :: getting all of the necessary credentials and experience :: will fail to do so.

          Yet you :: allegedly pants stealing Tommy :: are going to make seven figures consulting next year? Without much of a web presence … with zero points differentiation … with only a small to negligible social media following … without any formal education … and without any experience in consulting our marketing? Just via “word of mouth” referrals? The law firms mentioned above certainly don’t rely on that … they spend tens of millions and hire agencies swarming with qualified creative geniuses and Don Drapers who themselves have hundreds of years of experience in their profession.

          You got the web in 2008 :: and now in 2011 your selling people on the idea that you can tell them how to make more money on the webs or whatever.

          It’s fucking nonsensical bullshit.

          1. @SD,
            Re; Tommy Walker

            Is it a red flag if I Google the guru and cannot find him (or his website) on the first ten pages?
            Dude wants to teach me how to earn income online and has nothing indexed in the first 120 listings and counting… of the SERP’s.

            I’m not even going to mention the 7 figure thing.
            BUT…one would think if you were that good, you wouldn’t have to hire a private detective to find you online.

          2. @SD, Lawyers are just as snake oil of a business as well, oldest profession or not.

            You’re right, I got fired from a crappy retail job, and worked my way up for two years. My first real client was a technology firm looking for SEO advice, my first long time retainer client was a regional restaurant.

            Each had the resources to pay, and each had a deal where they would pay based on performance. People with money know other people with money, and the word of mouth came in from other businesses asking how they were able to do it.

            It worked because I worked my ass off to make sure it happened.

            I don’t position myself as a guru, have never called myself that and speak out against that.

            As far as lead gen goes, how I plan to scale my business up next year is also primarily through direct advertising for lead gen, selling services at a higher rate to people who can easily afford it and can easily identify the need, makes this a fairly simple process. (and quite similar to what any Don Draper would do)

            It took a long time to get there, but quite honestly it can be done without a website, big shot lawyers were doing it long before the internet.

            That said, I’m not de-meriting what you’ve said here, in fact I don’t find any of the things you say hard to believe. My claims are my own, and it would be foolish to think this would be some place to hawk product. That’s not why I’m here.

            My only point is that it’s important to see both sides of the equation, and do something in a productive direction. Nobody, including you, will solve people’s problems for them.

            1. @Tommy Walker,

              You don’t realize it yet, although one day you will, but you’ve bought into the packaged fantasy that you can simply jump over a large portion of society and “skip to the head of the class” by paying your dues with no more than pure desire and cunning.

              Unfortunately, what you miss along the way to the goal are all the small but important details, experiences, and necessary wisdom acquisition that are essential to reaching *and maintaining* the very goal you seek.

              As you posture and position yourself and attempt to converse on the same level with those legitimately above you who have actually attended to those things, you may think to yourself that you have “arrived,” and you are now “one of them.” However, those people will know that you have not earned a place on their level, and will simply humor you.

              They will further capitalize on your own delusions by stroking your ego, taking what benefits them, and giving you as little in return as possible. Ironically, deep down you will think that it is you who is exploiting them, which in some sense could be considered karmic reward.

              Even if by accident you found yourself in some postured position of temporary authority or stature, remaining there without benefit of the earned experience you chose to bypass would make it virtually impossible for you to remain there for long.

              Eventually, you may look up and realize you’ve spent 20-30-40 years trying to avoid spending 20-30-40 years earnestly working to become what you only pretended to be, and which ultimately failed you.

              Then, you can sit back in your second-hand rocker and read Perry Belcher’s ghost written autobiography, “What I Wish’t I’d Done Different, and How You Can Wish’t You’d Done Different, Too.”

            2. @Sam,

              Maybe that’s my point. I do client work. I market for actual companies and take on clients that are in the B2C space with actual results.

              I also teach freelancers how to make more money, using techniques that I have personally used to make more money from my actual client work.

              I said this earlier, but I’ve tried posturing myself to be one of the “cool kids” but I show up as a blip. Nobody pats my head, and I don’t go out of my way to be impressive to the A-Team (in fact I’m fairly certain I’m a thorn in their side)

              “Unfortunately, what you miss along the way to the goal are all the small but important details, experiences, and necessary wisdom acquisition that are essential to reaching *and maintaining* the very goal you seek.”

              This isn’t something I miss, it’s something I revel in and push myself to gain the necessary experience to move myself and my coaching students to the next level.

              “They will further capitalize on your own delusions by stroking your ego, taking what benefits them, and giving you as little in return as possible.”

              I don’t disagree with this entirely, in fact at times it’s made itself rather apparent, but there is a difference between the people and the information they put out.

              I’ve learned very valuable copywriting information that I have been able to put to work for my clients and see measurable results. I’ve been pointed in the direction of other resources that are undisputed legends of the field, and because of all of it, have become better because of it.

              But don’t get me wrong, my clients pay me, I care about getting better for them, and nobody else. Beyond that, I’ve made very valuable connections with others on the “D-Team” and as far as social proof is concerned, am on the “D-team” myself. I and enjoy the community very much.

              However, I speak out, quite loudly at times, that there is no such thing as skipping the front of the line, and that 20-30-40 years from now you’re going to wake up either being satisfied or wondering where the hell you went wrong.

              Without actually doing work, you’ll end up wondering and push every day to make sure that doesn’t happen.

              1. @Tommy Walker ::

                Here you are kissing Naomi’s fat ass …

                Naomi Dunford from the most awesome foul mouthed marketing blog ever issued a challenge. She asked “What do you do” for some, this might be a difficult question to answer. For me? Not at all.

                Bring it Naomi!

                Good stuff :: do you advise your “clients” to sycophant the A-team sociopaths as well?? Does that help them build powerful Facebook followings like the one you don’t have?

                I have two types of customers, Internet marketers who want to step up their game and regional businesses that want to find and communicate with their customers online quickly.

                I say regional businesses because large corporations have too much infrastructure and not a lot of flexibility. I’m not sure that many large businesses have the level of adaptability or willingness to listen as regional or small businesses.

                Yes :: I also find that “large” companies {which is to say companies that exist and have actual business} tend to shy away from paying untrained ex-retail employees for “consulting” which they are clearly not qualified to provide. Oh well :: there’s always the n00bs to exploit. Right Tommy?


                I’m just trying to be fair to both sides. The side where you’re not a qualified consultant … and the other side {which I haven’t figured out yet}.

            3. @SD

              Let me translate what I think Tommy Walker has been saying here all along. His whole schtick of charging your ‘value’ I believe comes from Mr. Kevin Nations who Tommy name checked as someone he got some coaching/training/frauduct/whatever from.

              Here goes…

              @Tommy Walker Says;

              “Kevin Nations taught me to over charge people for stuff.”

              That is basically Kevin’s M.O. (he most recently taught it to Irwin and now they are ‘business partners’)

              Now Tommy is just reteaching the same thing to his freelancer niche.

              I met Kevin Nations exactly once.

              Literally, the first thing out of his big shit eating grin hick mouth was him bragging about how he grossly over charges people for his stuff.

              It was bizarre.

              I could be wrong about Tommy, but I doubt it…

            4. @Tommy Walker, Listen here, Tommy.

              Now Tommy, everyone knows that Madge Crikey (that’s me) makes the best hamburgers for 386 miles. That is an actual fact determined from over 40 years of record keeping. Mr. Crikey calculated the average distance from what different folks have said they’d drive to eat my hamburgers over the years, and he re-checks it now and then just to make sure it’s still accurate.

              Now, there’s something to be learned here from hamburgers.

              First off, my hamburgers only ever have a price once each July at our Bridge Club fund raiser. I didn’t set the price, I let the eaters decide the price. It turned out to be $4 including potato salad. Sure, I could have told folks the’d have to drive an average of 386 miles to get their hands on a hamburger like mine, so it really ought to be worth $30, even without the potato salad, but you know what? That’s horseshit.

              This is a world full of options we live in Tommy. Folks wouldn’t just be comparing my hamburgers with other hamburgers. Some of the young folks might be comparing my hamburgers with a big sack of Laffy Taffy. I also could have lied and said, there AIN’T no other place to get ANY food for 386 miles, but that’s horseshit, too. I want folks to buy a hamburger again next year and still like me.

              Another thing about hamburgers, Tommy. You might think it’s a simple matter to cook a hamburger. Why, you could even watch me and take notes, and then try to sell your own Madge Crikey hamburgers.

              But you know what though Tommy? They wouldn’t even come close to the Crikey Burger. See, you wouldn’t know about the special place that I go to get the best hamburger to start with. You also wouldn’t know about or have access to the Crikey Family Grease. It’s the same stock of prize grease passed down from Mr. Crikey’s great grandpa Earl, and it’s seasoned from history itself. (Course now it’s clean filtered and heated every time we use it.) That special grease is like gold Tommy, and Mr. Crikey put a padlock on the cabinet we keep it in.

              Tommy, what I am telling you is that impatience and a rush to the finish line makes folks miss the finer points that make all the difference. If someone tried to sell the secret of the Crikey Burger to other people, they’d still miss a few other special things, even with the secrets I’ve shared with you here (first time ever in Crikey history, hope they forgive me by the time I get upstairs).

              You’re young, Tommy. I’m young too, compared to the pyramids. But Tommy, you need to take some time to learn to really cook hamburgers. Not just tell others how to cook hamburgers. Course, I’m just using hamburgers as an example. It could even be polish sausages or pigs in a blanket.

              The main thing is for you to stop talking and start learning, and find a real, experienced wing to put yourself under until that wing says, “You’ve got it, Tommy, now fly!”

              But quit being in such a damn hurry to tell other people how to fly when you haven’t gotten your pilot’s license and flown around enough yourself. I’ll see if I can find you the address of the place where I bought myself the sign in my kitchen that says, “We don’t speak bullshit here” 40 years ago. It’s a good reminder to read first thing every morning while you’re eating your pancakes.

              That’s all I’ve got to say Tommy. Now I’m gonna go out on the porch and listen to Mr. Crikey play his harmonica.

            5. @Sam The Shrubbist,

              Have you heard of a fairly successful businessman called Richard Branson ? Have you read the story of his career ?

              Success as an entrepreneur is about determination, nerve, instincts and maybe cheek.

              Not about paying your dues or qualifications.

              And believe it or not, there’s plenty of room to do all that stuff ethically, even if you’re selling info products online.

            6. @ Madge Crikey,

              Thats a great post, I laughed out loud. But it bears no resemblance to the marketing pitch for the Third Tribe, or the ways they suggest you present things

            7. @also waiting,

              That was a very welcome example that you chose. I accept.

              It so happens that I have read every single word on every page of Richard Branson’s autobiography. Have you?

              If you have, then you know that his business was initially built on a foundation of major, intentional fraud. He confesses to this in great detail in his book. It was nothing short of a miracle that he did not go to prison.

              You see, at the time, much like where you stand today, he wasn’t all that interested in paying his dues or following society’s inconvenient “conventions.”

              As others here might imagine, the book was quite a let down. I later gave it away. The person I gave it to subsequently told me he felt very disillusioned after reading it and wished he hadn’t.

              I wonder what your purpose is here. I’ve noticed you scurrying around playing devil’s advocate with rigid determination, almost as if on his payroll.

              My advice, which your footprint here convinces me you won’t take, would be to advocate for someone other than the devil.

            8. @ Sam the Shrubbist,

              My point is, Branson is widely regarded as a great businessman, and is certainly successful. Few now would suggest he is a fraud or a scammer. Maybe you would.

              Regardless of his journey, he is now “legitimate” and respected. Deserved or not, he achieved success not through qualifications and “paying dues” – and I would argue that’s true for very many successful business people.

              We may not like it, and I’m not suggesting anyone should use fraud as a model, I’m just highlighting the flaws in your argument.

              “I wonder what your purpose is here. I’ve noticed you scurrying around playing devil’s advocate with rigid determination”

              “Playing Devil’s advocate” is when you argue for something you don’t believe in for the sake of it. I’m not doing that. I believe things aren’t as black and white here as you would all like to believe, that ethical marketing is quite possible and real, and that the people being attacked here don’t deserve the stuff that’s being said.

              I’m actually confused why this site and it’s readers are so vehemently opposed to “internet” marketing specifically – it seems you should all basically believe that marketing in general is evil.

            9. @also waiting, Richard Branson most certainly did end up paying his dues, after finally realizing the other way (which you prefer, probably in kit form) could have had a less than ideal impact on his freedom.

              It’s also not that most readers of this blog think that selling on the internet is evil, it’s just that most here don’t believe evil people should be selling on the internet.

              Maybe that’s why your promotion of them hasn’t really gone over very well.

              I wasn’t using “devil’s advocate” as a figure of speech, but as literal speculation as to your actual employer. I still think you should quit that job.

          3. @SD,

            “You say you don’t use the Internet to generate leads :: you use “word of mouth” :: yet you say you are “targeting” only real businesses. How pray tell do you “target” “word of mouth” lead gen?”

            When I read about Womma–Code it makes me wonder onto think that it would be hard to do it with having proper-disclosure:

            “Hidey-ho. I’m a paid talker for Wombats, Inc., and let me tell you about how great their…”

    7. @Tommyismyname,

      “I don’t have a big following. I am happy when my website get’s 100 visitors a day.”

      It must be so much that you learned from these people. It makes me want to think about what your net visitor value is from purchasing so many of the courses?

      1. @Jack,

        If you’ve noticed, I said I’ve learned copywriting from Copyblogger. And I did that for free.

        I’ve bought exactly two courses ever. Neither of which were from Copyblogger, both have worked out very well.

        @Sam I’ve worked in the online marketing field in varying degrees since 2005, totally solo since 2008. I started by working with the top player in the timeshare resale field (not any less scammy, I realize, which is why I left) in their SEO department. My linking strategies helped them rank high for well over 100,000 keywords, I left because the money was too easy, and I didn’t like what it did to me. I tried working for myself, but failed and lost everything, house, girlfriend, integrity, you know the story… and rebuilt.

        I don’t buy into everything that I’m told, and I’m glad this site exists.

        I don’t even think I’ve been active in 3T for at least a month, and quite honestly, it’s not even like I’m one of the “cool kids” over there, but that doesn’t mean I don’t stand beside the stuff that I’ve seen work for me, and has worked for my clients.

        That’s also not to say I don’t believe some of it (not from CB, but related) isn’t BS kit stuff. I personally hate the “product launch” method, and have never seen the value of cross promoting with 15,000 affiliates to clutter up everyone’s inbox, make a bunch of noise, just to convert a small % of sales…

        Your generalizations and black and white accusations based on affiliation is insulting. I’ve been giving credit where credit is due to both sides, yet the only quotes that have been extrapolated are the ones that out of context show blind support for a side I’ve publicly stated I don’t 100% agree with.

        Meanwhile, there have been very few here who are 1.) willing to use their real name or 2.) link out giving no real merit to your “support for real work”

        Furthermore, if we wanted to stick to generalizations, I could very easily say that the entire Salty Droid community base are a bunch of lazy people who didn’t take action and want to blame someone else for their own inability to have any real success, either that or they’re mixed with grumpy old curmudgeons who don’t think the only way to do something is the way they did it, and there’s no possible way that anyone else could possibly excel.

        That the droid itself has been gaining his popularity and readership by preying on those who feel vulnerable because they feel like they got ripped off because they couldn’t think for themselves while listening to information they paid for.

        But let’s be real…

        That’s not the case. The Droid community is made up of established business owners who are respected in their fields, who are joining Salty on his mission to expose all of the frauds for what they are. You provide well researched, and well thought out arguments, and there is merit to what you say.

        Salty himself does have a good mission, and it’s necessary for the people who do blindly follow to open their eyes and realize there’s more than just dreams and promises out there, and that it is entirely possible to be taken for a ride.

        But in the end, it comes down to personal responsibility.

        I’ve said my piece here, both for and against Salty and CB and would ask that you please just give credit where credit is due. You have the ability to think for yourselves, as do I.

        Simply showing support does not mean you blindly agree and buy into everything with the expectation it’s going to change your life. In the end, you’re the only person who is accountable to your own success.

        1. @Tommy Walker,
          I could very easily say that the entire Salty Droid community base are a bunch of lazy people who didn’t take action and want to blame someone else for their own inability to have any real success, either that or they’re mixed with grumpy old curmudgeons who don’t think the only way to do something is the way they did it, and there’s no possible way that anyone else could possibly excel.
          You just did say it. Pretty hard to be on both sides, Tommy.

          1. @Martypants,

            “Pretty hard to be on both sides”

            It’s the thing that people want to try to get SD community to resonate along with by using the apophasis to suggest-us to be stuck in the thinking of old-schoold Newton’s apple phases.

        2. @Tommy Walker ::

          If you think there are “two sides” to this story :: then you are on the wrong side.

          There is no counter argument to this site. Fraud :: lies :: and manipulation are both wrong and illegal.

          You can say I’m too mean :: or my characterizations too sweeping :: but the specific points being made here are backed with multitudinous facts and are all but incontestable.

          I’m not sure how you and @alsowaiting have so much time to comment :: what with having your big successful wannabe 7-figure “businesses” to run.

          1. @SD,

            Yikes, I am at Starbucks on my own laptop and using their free wifi and when I clicked to reply to your comment, it automatically filled in the username _cartman_ and a hotmail address that is definitely not mine. I don’t know if it matches _cartman_’s actual email, but thought I’d alert you to a potential problem.

            I also went and clicked reply to a few others and the info for another user automatically filled in.


            P.S. Because I was distracted by that, I have forgotten what I originally planned to say. I need a self-help product for memory. Or something.

            1. I’m having the same problem and used the NewHere pseudonym I came back to see several messages not written by me (which I only noticed when I saw the replies supposedly to me and couldn’t make sense of them).

              People, please pay attention before you post to make sure you don’t have other people’s credentials automatically populated for you.

        3. @Tommy Walker,

          Ok. Here’s what I find really confusing about everything you have been saying. On the one hand, you agree with part/some of Salty’s arguments that the individuals he’s writing about in the MMO field are targeting vulnerable individuals with products of dubious quality and empty promises that said vulnerable individual will be able to make money/quit the day job/earn 6 figures, etc. etc. (i.e., they are scamming and manipulating vulnerable people).

          On the other hand, these same people have offered products that you have found some value in?

          That’s what I’m reading here (I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, It’s just a bit difficult to correlate your one argument to the other because, to me, they cannot both be true.) I’m not sure whether you are being purposefully disingenuous or really do believe what you are saying.

          1. @whatthewhat,

            Clearly, Tommy Walker thinks that reading the “secrets” of the scammers somehow qualifies him as an expert. One visit to his very amateurish website with his wordy bullshit blog posts are all anybody needs to see that he is a know-nothing wannabe scammer, too.

            The complete lack of testimonials on his site indicates that at least he hasn’t gone the fake testimonial route (yet), but it also suggests that his so-called business is still in the fake part of the “fake it until you make it” instruction.

            The very few comments on his blog posts are mostly from spammers. It is fascinating when someone who claims to be an expert in community building can’t build one on his own website.

          2. @whatthewhat, he’s stuck in cognitive dissonance. Eating the cake he’s having from both sides of his mouth because you “have to look at both sides.”

            I’m a little in awe of his logical yoga, twisting reason into putty-muscled poses. In his gut he can’t reconcile what he’s been doing with what he’s been feeling, so he keeps coming back here, maybe after refueling on bizopp cant in some private membership site.

            He’ll get out eventually. Baby steps.

            1. @Slowly Waking, Sad to say, but Tommy won’t realize how profound that was unless you were to charge him a subscription fee to read it.

          3. @whatthewhat,

            I’m glad you bring this up. But it is hard to address, I don’t think all of the products are dubious, but some definitely are, and in any case I don’t think there is a lot of care or thought put into the actual targeting of the product.

            Build a list of 100,000 people and launch a product to everyone on it, it’s impossible to tell who is buying your product, or even if they can use it to it’s fullest capabilities.

            If you are starting at skill level 0, but the product is really for skill level 7 people to get to level 8, the people who are at skill level 7 will use it and level, and the people at 0 are left wondering what to do next, so they buy the next one and the next one…

            And the people at the top are too busy to pay attention.

            The skill level 0 people want to skip ahead to skill 8, and without anyone telling them that the product isn’t going to do this for them, they’re only destined to waste more money, without anyone telling them not to.

            I personally have found value with the few things I’ve bought. I also learned as much as I could through free resources like the internet and the library before I ever purchased an info product.

            Using it with clients in the retail and restaurant space, I’ve seen many of the principals work. I’ve also seen many of those same principals not work for others who thought simply buying it would get them to that point.

            But when something doesn’t work for you… it doesn’t matter who else it does work for, because well… they’re not you.

            With some minor adjustments to the targeting of certain products, there would be less of an issue overall, that’s really my point.

            The conversation above is appalling, not surprising, and if it’s true, needs to be brought to light, no question about that.

            1. @Tommy Walker,

              Here’s the big problem I see with the whole “if you’re skill level 4, just teach the 1s and 2s” schtick:

              Most fields that people want help with (software, dieting, marketing, business, relationships) have much great depth than initially appears. Unless you are sufficiently advanced, you can follow blind alleys that seem to be generating positive results, but will in the long term lead to disaster.

              Such as:

              -A marketing/sales approach that gets customers to start off with, but leads to a massive PR crisis later on
              -Building a piece of software which works well, but is impossible to maintain and needs a complete overhaul at great expense later on
              -SEO techniques which work well for 12 months, but then your site gets dropped after a manual review
              -A diet which causes you to lose weight for 6 months, but then gives you a major health problem

              What concerns me, and has done for a number of years is how little experience many of these people have running a business before getting into blogging.

              Very few of them have seen the natural ebb and flow of business, or had experience dealing with serious problems.

              They’ve thrown up a blog, had a year or two of apparent success which is mainly due to being in a rising market, and suddenly they are giving advice to others on how to succeed. The chances are, they don’t really understand why they’ve been successful, and they certainly don’t know how to deal with it when one of their customers hits a roadblock.

              One of the major areas I see this show up is how they handle risks.

              The transcript above is a great illustration of this. Ethical considerations aside, firstly how did Naomi think she was possible going to get away with a $150k tax fraud, and secondly why was she having this discussion via a text chat? It just screams “I haven’t thought my behaviour through”

              (If you’re going to do something which could come back to bite you later on, at least have the good sense not to leave a whacking great evidential trail.)

              And you, Tommy. Why are you posting here? What do you hope to gain from it?

              Amongst other things, you’ve:

              -Dived into a website full of people who are hostile to your argument, with only your own claims as hearsay evidence

              -Supported your argument with details about Chris Brogan which were factually incorrect, then blamed “memory”, when you are one click away from his website to check your facts.

              -Made income claims that you can’t back up with proof (why? how will that help your credibility?)

              -Probably managed to get onto SD’s radar so anything you do in future will come under scrutiny. Something which you might have avoided for a few years at least.

              How is this going to look when a client you’re looking to work with Googles you? Does it look like the actions of someone who weighs potential risks carefully?

        4. @Salty,

          Old post, and not my proudest. Yes, I was trying to kiss some ass, and ultimately it got me nowhere.

          Now, I wouldn’t normally do this, and chances are likely you’re going to cry “FAKE” on me, but this is one of my clients that I do manage on a regular basis.


          I’ve managed this community for 2 years, and it now has 84,000+ members. Started it from day 1 with 0 people attached to it.

          To further with the proof, here’s my linkedin profile,

          No the testimonials aren’t heavy, but they are authentic. I don’t focus much time on Linkedin.

          As far as my own community goes, I don’t need to have a bunch of people telling me how awesome I am in order to do my job effectively.

          I personally don’t subscribe to the narcissism that many online personalities need in order to “prove” what they can do. I would much rather focus my efforts on helping my clients and coaching students, and I am very up front and honest about that with the people I work with.

          1. @Tommy Walker,

            On the plus side, you’re not a lost cause because you keep coming back here and thinking out loud. BUT, it’s going to take some time and DISASSOCIATION to get all the b.s. out of your system. It’s just weighing you down.

            You need a re-set.

            Two words: CLEAN BREAK.

            Go join the Peace Corps and come back a new man, Tommy.

            I’m not kidding.

          2. @Tommy Walker, Tommy, I want to apologize for getting your hopes up, but for the life of me I could not find the address of that place where I got that sign in my kitchen that says, “We Don’t Speak Bullshit Here.” Mr. Crikey thinks it might have been in Milwaukee but I think it could have been when we went to Laredo. It’s been 40 years anyhow.

            Mr. Crikey and I talked about it last night, and even though our neighbor up the street is partial to it, we both agreed when we pass we want you to have that sign.

            So one day it will be yours. I just hope it isn’t this year cause Square Dance season is coming up, and Mr. Crikey also needs to finish rewiring his tool shed.

            I just wanted you to know I had not forgotten about you. That is really all I had to say.

      2. This has been a very interesting and enlightening exchange. I have to say, though, that @Tommyismyname lost me way back there when he mentioned eLance. Sorry. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

        Regarding Richard Branson, did you know he’s renting his heart-shaped island, Makepeace (aka “Make-a-piece-off-you”*) for $16,000 and more (per person) for a weekend stay? But if you really want the full benefit of being on the magickal isle, let me remind you that you can pay Joe “Mr. Fire” Vitale $50,000 for a Mastermind Weekend on Makepeace with him and his buddies. Who knows what might happen when you hang around big thinkers?

        I didn’t mean to hijack again; I just thought some comic relief was in order.

        So now back to the regularly scheduled programming. All I have to say right now is that on this post alone, @Slowly Waking has written a whole book’s worth of wisdom about the IM “culture.” It’s my hope that people — including or especially some of those feminist bloggers who “can’t see the scam” but only see the (fake) misogyny — are taking time to read those comments.

        * Thanks to the Burned By Fire blogger for that one.

        1. @Victor,

          We share the same concerns, and for the same reasons.

          Some people would say that “Geek Squad” at Best Buy is a scam because the instruction manuals clearly tell you how to do everything they’re doing, yet (this is only from experience) they’ll put in little “safe guards” to ensure they come back for more.

          This is wrong.

          Perhaps I dived in to get my own tribesmen to wake up to certain things that could be going on, instead of just saying “Oh god, what a horrible nasty place”

          My evidence is my own, and nowhere on my site do I sell service based on my income claims, nor will I. Even mentioning my own income was because of my own personal experience, but not to sell anything, this is the entirely wrong crowd for that.

          Showing some sort of check or paypal screen cap is easily doctored, and makes me no better than people like Shoemoney or the droves of other marketers who use that very same tactic.

          Beyond that, I don’t sell the promise of six figure salaries, and I never will.

          I should have checked my claims on Brogan, didn’t, now I look foolish, lesson learned.

          Being on Salty’s radar is welcome, if I can ever be accused of scamming people with the in depth research that’s put in, I’d like to know. There’s something to be said for accountability.

          It may not look like the actions of someone who weighs potential risks, but even knowing that I’m putting myself into a situation that could be a potential bloodbath,
          I’m not afraid to stand up for what I know to be true only for myself.

  10. Appearances:


    Does Naomi do money laundering consults too? Because any successful illegal business needs a good money laundering plan.


    If the facts of the matter are anything like the appearances then Naomi has some explaining to do.


    Not an uncommon tactic for people who just got caught in a big fat lie.

  11. I usually agree with most of the things said here and definitely believe that the crap out there exists. Salty has proved it many times.

    However, I’m sorry, I don’t buy Ali Luke is one of them. She’s well prepared and she has credentials.
    Writing guest post for Copyblogger doesn’t make you a scammer.

    1. @I was here before,

      I can’t say with any fact that this person is or isn’t but you have to admit she picks bad people to associate with

      …and if this site is about anything, and especially these posts…you better start paying attention to the people you align yourself with…not knowing is no longer acceptable

      Not looking into who you stand by – who you work with is not professional

      BTW these scammers are using those with solid reps every day…they need to

      They need to wrap your authenticity around their dishonesty in order to hide their crimes

      1. @Anonymous,

        I agree with you. One has to be very careful when aligning with someone in business.
        But still, are we The Spanish Inquisition? If someone has good academic credentials for a writer (AB English (Honors), Cambridge and MA in Creative Writing at Goldsmith College) and writing experience why can’t she ask money for teaching how to write?

        1. @I was here before, can we generalize and move her out of the example?

          Those are good entry-level credentials. Still, it’s dicey to say you’re an expert when your MA’s still warm. 2-5 years experience and all that.

          But Dunford & her buddies encourage people to set themselves up as experts without expertise. They call it “positioning.” In writing, it’s not so bad. Maybe I lose some readers. It’s worse when the bridge I built falls on a schoolbus because my civil engineering coach is still in short pants.

          But when the barriers of entry are this low, it’s terrible business advice. Anybody can set up a coaching site. How many writing coaches can one market bear? Yet here’s Naomi, getting scores of surplus MAs to go all-in coaching/ebooking what they know and love. They were told it’s a “thank you economy” so they all tweet each other and Naomi stays on top of the pyramid, until later on a big player moves in and gobbles up the market.

    2. @I was here before ::

      Writing guest post for Copyblogger doesn’t make you a scammer.


      But it’s a likely indication that you’re a scammer :: a victim :: or both.

  12. I read all of this stuff for the first time last night. I wasn’t sure what the hell to think, so I slept on it (for a few hours, anyway) and today…I’m still not sure what to think of it.

    I’m a customer of both Naomi’s and Dave’s. I run a small online business based on my credentials (degree, experience in my field, and extra accredited training) selling a service that is not marketing.

    I do not make a lot of money, but I do make a small living. I attribute some of my success to the marketing basics I learned from Naomi and Dave. I’m sure that perhaps what I learned was very, very basic since I am totally new at this, don’t have a mentor to turn to, and am basically on my own. Perhaps it was even overpriced, but I feel it did help me.

    However. Reading this chatlog and the ensuing comments pointing out the really big red flags here, made me feel a little sick.

    Am I a complete rube?

    Have I picked up unethical, not-kosher marketing attitudes and techniques from Naomi?

    I really thought my moral compass was more finely tuned than perhaps it is. It makes me afraid to think what kind of influences I might’ve uncritically picked up from following their advice.

    I feel like a moron.

    1. @hrmmm,

      Finding out that something it’s what you thought it was can be jarring.

      But, you are not a moron. And you shouldn’t feel stupid.

      A lot of people who read this blog (and others similar) do so because we’ve also been woken up by reality.

      As to whether sleazy tactics have worn off on you, and you’ve employed them… just review what you’re doing and what’s been written publicly. Is everything 100% true and genuine? Then you’re probably safe, especially with credentials and experience under your belt.

      1. @Jaime, I’ll be conducting a fine-toothed review of everything I’ve done in my business, how I’ve treated my clients, and how I’ve marketed my services, in response to this.

        As bizarre and nastily-worded as saltydroid is, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the information exposed here, though it wasn’t exactly pleasant reading.

        I did notice for the past couple of years how incestuous the online marketing guru kingdom seems to be – all the same people giving each other testimonials, guest blogging for one another, doing JVs together – but I also just assumed that’s the nature of the business of online marketers marketing their own online marketing businesses which sell online marketing advice to other aspiring online marketers.

        Thankfully, I’m not one, so I figured it needn’t really concern me.

        But it should, I see now. Questionable authority, questionable “social proof,” inflated prices, and…turns out, it’s turtles all the way down to tax fraud and horrible business ethics.

        I really want to make money in my own business. I don’t run a charity, though I do really care about my work and my clients. But I am also really concerned about my character and whose influences I unwittingly take on. I’m a critical thinker when it comes to the area I’m trained in, but on this? I think my brain failed utterly.

        I don’t give a gold-plated shit if Dave left his family. That’s his concern. I don’t give a gold-plated shit if Naomi fucked him. That’s their concern. I don’t really need to know anything about Dave’s tragic family history.

        But knowing that the people I relied on and in some senses modeled my business after are (alleged) tax cheats, and admit to being pretty shitty business owners to boot? That concerns me quite a lot.

        Did Naomi receive anonymous death threats? I don’t know. It’s the internet; seems likely. Is she a shady character with totally questionable, if not outright illegal, business tactics? After reading this? Seems likely.

        Ironically, I still have a couple of consultations sessions booked with Naomi. I don’t even know what I’ll say to her.

        I’m really just thinking onto the keyboard at this point. Anyway, thanks for the shouler-pat.

      2. @Jaime,

        Thanks. I just typed a long, hysterical comment that didn’t go through, but here’s the beef:

        In the very near future, I’ll be going through everything I’ve ever done in my business with a fine-toothed comb.

        I don’t want to turn out to be an asshole.

    2. @hrmmm,

      the best sceret these scammers have going is that they find a few obvious marketing tips…ones a more experienced person would just laugh at. What they do is polish it up and dress it up and then add some BS to hype it up and charge outlandish prices…you have a business so you applied it

      You are not the target…the target is the person who wants to quit a dead end job and believes this polished turd with be their lottery ticket

      Naomi describes building niche sites like this as an example”

      Naomi: ‘you just build them and set and forget and they quickly bring in a bunch of money’

      all lies and designed for that target market (not you)…nobody should follow that advice

  13. @anonone,

    I see your point, I honestly do. But I think you’re missing the point where Dave was behaving in a way that was exactly opposite of what he’d always espoused and shown to everyone around him.

    -His sister, with EMT training, who has seen her fair share of psychological and drug-related breakdowns, thought he was spiraling out of control.

    -His brother, who was converted by Dave, was reeling from what he perceived as a mental break similar to what their dad had. (Keep quoting what Anthony said about Roseanne’s affair if you want, but trust me, you have no idea how the Navarros perceive their dad.)

    There are other things you don’t know, observations by friends and family, that factored into the choice to have Dave evaluated. It wasn’t a light decision made to control someone, but an attempt to help someone who was clearly off the rails.

    SD knows who I am and I’ve given him the info about this particular part of the story, so if you trust him, trust that he has his reasons for being slightly biased. It’s not about Anthony being a fundamentalist wacko or whatever – it’s about family and friends being worried sick over someone suddenly having a break from reality brought on by stress, drugs, or cult-like conditioning.

    And if you don’t think Dave Navarro had a break from reality, you’re not paying enough attention to this story.

    1. @FormerFriend ::

      I deleted @anonone’s BS … because it violates a previously promulgated rule of mine … and my authoritah will be respected. This site is about scammers :: not worried brothers.

      This has nothing to do with “fundamentalism” :: except in the fragile little mind of one Naomi Dunford.

      It’s too bad our mental health and justice systems aren’t better set up to deal with our very real cult/manipulation problem.

    2. @FormerFriend, EMF training costs about 100 bucks, takes 2 days for Level One and has never been proven scientifically any more than Reiki, Homeopathy or Healing Touch.

      So whereas I really get your point, and I’m not disagreeing, that in and of itself is a irrelevant.

      I’m curious to know what other training she has had, because I suspect that normally her ‘training’ would be ridiculed here if she were defending the case for the accused.

      1. @Anonymous ::

        This whole fucking line of conversation is irrelevant.

        I’m curious to know what kind of ‘training’ you have … oh wait no I’m not … cause you’re not part of the story just like Dave’s brother and sister aren’t.

      2. She was an EMT – emergency medical technician, ie a paramedic, in Florida for quite some time. She saved people’s lives on a daily basis, often after drug overdoses or situations involving self-harm. She knew about and feared an amphetamine reaction in her brother based on some particular behaviors.

        I have no idea what “EMF” is in the context you’re referring to, but I can tell you life-saving techniques taught at and in conjunction with hospitals and emergency rooms hold a little more water in this kind of situation than “Healing Touch”.

        All that said, I think I’m breaking SD’s rule about talking about the Navarro family under an anonymous name. I’ve said what I wanted to say in defense of their actions, though, so I’m going to go my way. Hopefully everyone can get back to the black-and-white fraud/scam nature of the article and leave the family’s concerns out of it now.

        1. @FormerFriend ::

          That rule doesn’t apply to you because you know something more than the NOTHING all the rest of the “fundamentalist” idiocy is based on.

      3. @,

        He said EMT training, emergency medical technician. You learn patient assessment,airway management, splinting, advanced CPR, how to control a hemorrhage and a whole host of other skills.

        I don’t know what you’re talking about, EMF electomagnetic field training? Is that what you’re claiming Dave’s sister had? Some reiki bullshit? You are so wrong.

      4. @Anonymous {aka} @Tim Brownson ::

        Oh and guy … guess who else used to be an EMT? Yep yep!

        I seem to remember it being almost all science. But what do I know? Of course … I do have a science degree and stuff … but I’m not a doctor like Harlan Kilstein … or a “life coach” like you.

    3. @FormerFriend,

      Apparently, the mental health professionals evaluated Dave and immediately realized that his brother was lying to try to get him involuntarily committed. Police don’t just show up to take you into custody on a whim.

      So it speaks to Anthony’s lack of credibility, something that Salty apparently can’t stand to have questioned, so he deletes any comments that do. And it isn’t irrelevant to the story as long as Salty is promoting this “they thought” Dave was on drugs, mind-washed, in a cult or whatever and using Anthony as a source.

      Being in a cult, getting a divorce, living in different places are all still legal in the U.S. But lying on an affidavit to try to get someone involuntarily committed should be, no matter how “worried” you are about them.

      1. @anonone,

        You’re reading this the way you want to, and that’s clearly your prerogative. But I’m telling you: no one lied to the police. No one lied before a judge when they revealed their concerns. Dave wasn’t “immediately” released.

        I also don’t see anywhere where SD says that Anthony is his source. Again, you are making assumptions without facts and I believe you’re still stuck on the “fundamentalist wacko” instead of seeing how worried his family was for his well-being.

        No one is arguing the legality of up and leaving your wife and kids, going into hiding, driving erratically, smelling like a homeless person, having wild, bloodshot eyes, or yelling at your kids for no reason loudly and in public, startling so badly at a fast food restaurant that you try to hide down in the floorboards, or getting confused in a very familiar restaurant and almost leaving via the emergency exit – twice. But all taken together after knowing the “normal” Dave, it speaks volumes as to the stability of his mind. The Dave everyone sees now is not the Dave that was, and enough people were worried that Christine and Anthony were convinced that this evaluation was worth the possible schism in their relationship with their brother.

        I think you’re also ignoring the likelihood that Dave and Naomi have blown this out of proportion to such an extent because they are seeking just this sort of reaction from people to put up a smokescreen between SD’s blog and theirs. You believe Anthony is the source of SD’s information, and that’s pretty much what they’re hoping – because enough people will dismiss him for being a “wackjob” that maybe, just maybe, they can start selling “products” again.

        I’ve talked to Christine about this. You can believe Anthony is a wackjob all you want, but Christine might be the most stable, loving person on this planet and anything she stood before a judge and said about her brother was the truth. It comes down to belief, trust in the people you know, and putting two-and-two together using logic AND emotion. I think they made the right call trying to get him help, but obviously YMMV.

        It really is a moot point now, but if you want to continue arguing it, I’ll be happy to share an email address with SD and he can get that to you if he thinks it’s appropriate.

        1. @FormerFriend,

          Okay, I sincerely appreciate your perspective and insight, even if I can’t verify it or believe it. You are also writing what you have been told, not what you have seen.

          Anthony’s “letters to Dave” website pretty much defines who Anthony is, and not in a good way. He has no credibility, IMHO.

          I won’t write anything more on this topic.

          1. @anonone,

            You’re making an assumption when you say that I didn’t see some of this myself and that I’m just believing what I was told.

            FWIW, in the Letters site, Anthony was using the same “language” to talk to Dave that Dave used with Anthony every day for the last dozen or so years. So by that standard, Dave was just as much a wacko as Anthony.

      2. @anonone,

        “Apparently” “Apparently” “Apparently” “Apparently”

        You really like that word, “apparently,” as if it somehow insulates you from culpability for the absolute bullshit and phlegm you’re attempting to flick on people that have more innate decency than you’ll ever be able to muster in your lifetime.

        You are pathetically obvious and a truly lousy excuse for a human being.

        1. @Lie Detector,

          Apparently, you accept hearsay as fact. I don’t, which is why I use the word “apparently” as in, apparently, you are a terrible lie detector.

            1. @Lie Detector,

              I have only one question about the whole Dave drugs thing.

              If he allegedly had a speed habit, why was he so goddamn fat?

  14. “Now he’s gone back to school to get his Tech Geek PhD, a degree in Computer Programming. ”

    I had to read the shit out of her website, and this line particularly got me. I’m pretty sure a bachelor’s degree isn’t a phd, a PhD is a fucking PhD.

    Amazing stuff, thanks for fighting the good fight.

  15. This is a fight between right and wrong..

    It doesn’t matter what you’re calling it, biz op, make money online (MMO) or get rich quick it’s wrong


    It’s creation is designed to exploit the deep desires of people who don’t know any better

    They coerce by painting a picture of wealth, carefree lifestyle, quitting a job and the like

    It’s deception pure and simple…and some very good people are getting hurt…in VERY LARGE #’s

    That’s the point here with this post…nobody is getting a free pass

    You sell fantasy wealth courses and you will get called out on it in a very harsh way

    You sell as an affiliate you will be called out on it in a very harsh way

    If the harshness is what offends then I suggest you think of the harshness these online grifters use on their victims

    This ends with indictments…whether you sold $700 worth of frauducts or MILLIONS

    Millions are being ripped off…the sad fact is there’s thousands just like Naomi who shill for the A Team

    This ends with indictments…nothing less

  16. More gems from Naomi’s website:

    “I could write some really awesome sales copy here but I’m not in the mood. It costs $129. Basically that’s two hours of non-stop Naomi.That’s about twenty bucks cheaper than getting it by the hour. I generally charge $75/hour. Kind of like a low-to-mid-range prostitute in a major urban center.

    Because I don’t want the Marketing Mafia to come and take my membership to the club away, I have to put in one of those “A pox on all your houses if you don’t BUY RIGHT NOW” sales gimmicks. Therefore, the first 8 people who sign up — as in the money is in my boob job fund jar and you’re written in with pen — get it for $99. Everyone else doesn’t.”

    See, she could write some really awesome sales copy but she’s just not in the mood. Okay, then…basically it’s just an online version of a mugging. And see how she elbows you in the ribs and winks about the “Marketing Mafia”? You’re in on the joke too! You’re an insider like Naomi.

    Naomi again:
    “Hello, my favorite people. The real Dave Navarro, not the lame-ass fakers who play guitar or football, (there’s fame in the name, dudes. Fame. In. The Name.) interviewed me!”

    Yeah, that’s right, the Dave Navarro of internet blogging is so much more successfull than the guitarist for Jane’s Addiction.

    “You should head over to tell him his new site is sexy like fake Dave Navarro’s third wife, Carmen Electra. When Dave isn’t interviewing me, he’s giving advice on How To Make Much More Money And Work Fewer Hours. Kind of like Tim Ferriss, except achievable by someone other than Tim Ferriss. I will also be eternally indebted to Dave because he took out his big-ass bat of Daveness and kicked the asses of the nasty Digg trolls who talked smack about my post.

    Speaking of Carmen Electra – yeah, I bought her strippercize DVDs? Total waste of money. You’d be better off buying porn and dancing along. How do you like that, spam folders? Carmen Electra and porn, all in one email.” Twice!”

    Yadda, yadda…strippers…porn…bullshit bullshit…sexy big-ass boob job…prostitutes…

    And this is what feminist bloggers are defending?

    1. And it wasn’t bad. Very organized. Very mind-mapped. Dave is a good presenter. However, he offers nothing new and nothing you can’t get elsewhere — for FREE.

      Like most info products, his content is totally forked and totally regurgitated. And in this case, totally worth the price he’s asking.

      I “see” his intelligence. I “see” his entrepreneurial spirit. Too bad he abandoned his true support system for a manipulative fart in the wind like Naomi.

      Oh, and the 2 other reasons I posted:

      1. I expect the Dave Navarro, Jane’s Addiction, Carmen Electra stuff was about SEO.

      2. Naomi Dunford wrote about what she charges for her time:

      “I generally charge $75/hour. Kind of like a low-to-mid-range prostitute in a major urban center.”

      In his how to write short copy video, Dave reports charging $250 for two hours and claims that’s a discounted rate. He normally charges $500 for two hours.

      Fine. Some (amazing) copywriters really do make that for critique work.

      During the presentation, Dave slips up and shows that at one time he was charging $97 for two hours. He explains it away and makes a big deal of explaining (again) how he’s totally worth $250 per hour — and you can too!

      Stop being silly, Dave.

      1. @I Watched Dave Navarro’s Free “Course” On Writing Short Copy,

        I didn’t watch the videos, but I flipped through the flow-charts and PDFs. Dave’s stuff IS well organized and nicely formatted. He would do very well as a project manager somewhere. Somewhere like, oh, say, Lockheed Martin?

        1. @Lanna,

          I agree.

          On the other hand, he might have followed the IMer dream and hired a Filipino to do it at $2/hr.

    2. @Barbara,
      Naomi’s sctick–the non-selling sales pitch: “I could write some really awesome sales copy here but I’m not in the mood. It costs $129…….”

      …..is a straight lift from Kern’s laid-back style of writing copy. That off-hand bragging, slacker style appeals to the queasy ego of the mini-scammer by making them complicit, and so, by association, on a par with the big-dog scammer Kern.
      It only works on those who aspire, in some dark corner of their hearts, to be Kern–and those poor dupes are blind to the fact that they are the one’s being scammed.

    3. @Barbara,

      What turned me off from 3T is how incestuous it all is. The same names are giving up the same recommendations and testimonials. No one quite gets how it’s just some sort of club where everyone is recommending everyone else’s shit and they’re not getting real, honest to goodness reviews.

      I don’t want to read a review from someone who received a free course or membership. I want to hear from the people who paid the full asking price. I want them to tell me it’s worth the money.

  17. Some of Naomi’s “free” advice for her blog readers:

    “You have to stop viewing writing as an art and start viewing it as a product.”

    “Every time I try to type the word “result” I accidentally type “reslut” instead. The Freudian implications of this are, well, Freudian.”

    The following is from her advice on how to write a press release:

    “The press is people who get paid to relay information.”
    How To Find Your Story
    Ask people. Preferably ones who love you. See what they say. Ask them outright. Say something like “Yo. What’s interesting about me?” Other people, unless they are incredibly stupid, will almost invariably have a better view of your story than you will because they are not a part of it.”

    Here’s Naomi’s wisdom on dieting and book purchasing:

    “Anyway, I can’t claim to have read this book, but here’s a quote from In Defense Of Food: An Eater’s Manifesto.

    “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.”
    The awesomeness of this statement cannot be overstated. It’s like diet haiku. I will purchase this book for this one line alone.”

    Naomi on her most successfull search terms on search engines:

    ” The scared shitless post continues to get a lot of search engine traffic, but here are my favorite of late:

    “my friends thong” – Is this a plural, possessive, or both?
    “paint off a cat” – I don’t have a clue, either.
    “pootang” – No comment.
    “magical powers for money” – This one I love. This may be a tagline someday. I’m not totally sure what it means, but I love it anyway!”

    It’s really difficult to believe that based on this sample some people actually paid this woman for writing advice.

  18. Naomi on Public Relations:

    “Public Relations is arguably the funnest part of marketing. (Yes, I just said “funnest”. It’s my blog. I can say what I want. Besides, people pay me good money to write stuff. I’m a professional, dammit. I don’t have to prove anything to you.)”

    “Giving things to the destitute and then alerting the media is a good way to get press.”

    You mean like pretending your sending seventy girls to school in Cambodia but there is absolutely NO RECORD of your ever having given a dime to a Cambodian school? That’s the “funnest” part? Maybe if you’re Satan…

    1. @Yvette,do a Command-F search on the word “source,” people have covered this already in some detail in the comments.

      1. @Slowly Waking,

        BS. People have said vague stuff about Skype records, Google chat logs etc. Others have said stuff like “the are only three possibilities”.

        That’s not proof or provability. Like I’ve said before, I think the transcript sounds credible, but unless it’s backed up with evidence it’s worthless.

        1. @also waiting,

          What we’ve already covered is that Salty won’t reveal his source. Journalistic integrity and all that.

          We, the community, think it’s a Google chat log because Dave mentions Google chat.

          People have mentioned “three possibilities” of people with access to Naomi’s computer and people with access to Dave’s computer. Given anyone with the password can log into a Google account from any computer, who knows?

        2. @also waiting, On a public forum, it ultimately only matters to each individual reader what he or she believes.

          You have stated that you think the transcript sounds credible.

          The Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of credible is simply, “Offering reasonable grounds for being believed.”

          Since it sounds credible, and thus has reasonable grounds for being believed, then it cannot be “worthless.”

          This also means it has fulfilled the very purpose of a public forum, and that is, it matters to you, since you made your own determination that the transcript sounded credible.

          1. @Phyllis,

            Sure. But I also believe my own posts to be perfectly credible, and yet have been repeatedly called a liar. Whereas I never said salty was a liar – although I do think he presents assumptions and opinions as truth, along with many others here.

            Both his and my post are worth nothing without proof, but perfectly credible. There’s no basis to think that either of us are lying, but no way to prove it either.

            1. @also waiting,

              ‘But I also believe my own posts to be perfectly credible’

              just as you believe Shittybiz to be a credible and rep-licable business model.

              That’s the trouble with unexamined beliefs—some discerning judgement, earned through experience, is required to sort the crap from the truly credible.

            2. @stoic,

              Nope, Ittybiz doesn’t offer a business model, it helps people sell stuff more effectively. The presentation is quirky and aimed at a niche, but the content is sound

            3. @also waiting, My observation is that Naomi/IttyBiz does have a business model, a simple, obvious one that can be summed up in one word: BULLSHIT.

            4. @also waiting,

              Do you hear Dave Navarro or Naomi Dunford claiming this conversation NEVER happened?

              Do you hear them defending this as not accurate?

              Dave left his house and didn’t take his computer…guess where this information comes from

              Dave and Naomi can hire an attorney and take salty to the cleaners if this never happened or salty misrepresented the facts

              Here’s a fact…for those who want to STOP salty – you better pray he lied…pray he misrepresents because that is the only way to stop him

              Nobody challenges salty in court because the skeletons would come tumbling out of the closet

              Not because he is a legal heavyweight, who knows maybe he is but because they know it will all go record

              I’m sure with all the money the A team makes they can pool their money and hire a high powered attorney to stop salty…IF he were lying

              They won’t do it…because the truth will go on record

              Here’s another fact: The amount of money Salty could raise for legal defense if he wanted would be significant

              There’s a great deal of financial power in Salty’s corner

            5. @also waiting,
              Its a business model, you’re just not far enough down the funnel to realise that yet–but it looks like you’ll get there.

  19. @Lanna, here’s that new comment thread. In a comment above I overshared about my sordid IM journey. Lanna asked why I kept going after doing Module 1. Sorry it’s long, but pixels are cheap.

    To readers on the fence about IM being a vehicle of God or Satan: you can tell if I’m full of self-deception from the tone. Compare it to some of the people writing about why they think their six figure business is the bee’s knees. Which resonates more in your gut? Anyhoo.

    Why did I keep going after Module 1? Module 1 is always a lousy Camtasia vid on GoDaddy’s hosting. Why keep going after Module 2, then?

    Because by then I had made so many small compromises, waking up in a “community” of dazed scam victims didn’t freak me out. 99% of us had no chance of building a successful business offline or off. 100% were getting Kerned. But we were all there together, so we would each be the lone person who succeeded.

    Every step was a baby step. My first: “Gah, I’m a wreck. I’ve got to buckle down and make more money. I’ll do some research.” A weekend at the library led me to skim that awful book by Tim Ferriss, who gets just eviscerated in the most hilarious pan here. Money quote: “Some of this junk might actually work, but you’re going to be embarrassed doing it or admitting to your friends that you’re trying it. This is a man who, after all, weighs his own feces…”

    So I hoped this junk, like Ferris’ “muse” idea, would work; because it was embarrassing, I wouldn’t tell anybody until I got it up & running. My long backpacking trip through Europe let me see myself in his chapters on “geoarbitrage” and “mini-retirements.” So I could also see myself in his chapter on the “muse,” sprinkled with enough Princeton dust and Valley glitz that I knew it could be real. It’s like those aspirational magazines: Dwell, with gorgeous slick homes you’ll never live in, but wouldn’t it be nice?

    After enough baby steps I wound up paying seventy bucks for Desperate Buyers Only. This seminal IM “ebook” explains how to sell to people through their deepest open wounds. (At this point, those deepest in IM are protesting, “But that’s just what marketing is!”) Somehow, Ferris guided me to Google, who took me by the hand to an article here, a link there, and I’m at her sales page. Several steps were surely fakes, flogs, whatever, but I didn’t know enough then.

    It took a month, maybe three, to get there? I don’t know that I’d read another sales letter at that point. I still had some open wounds from my life collapse I shared in that earlier comment. I recall being outside cutting a fallen tree limb, chainsaw in hand, her bullet points that hit their marks stuck on loop in my head. Some of these ideas get in there, and when you’re emotionally spent they can hijack the script. When it got loud enough, I stacked the wood and ran inside and bought the damn thing. The sales letter worked.

    Months later I heard Ken McCarthy, the man who gave Frank Kern the keys to the infomarketing kingdom, say about copywriting, “bullets wound.” Meaning, “Write those sales letters with hundreds of bullet points about people’s fears, frustrations, and failures because one of them will be a direct hit! Did I mention Netscape?”

    I nursed a little skepticism. I never bought anything by Frank Kern, Eben Pagan, the Syndicate. I stayed away from the high-ticket stuff (which they imply is why you’re not making money yet– take massive action, with a massive pricetag). I tried to keep my integrity and not sell things I didn’t believe in. For instance, I never sold Online Business School as an affiliate; though tempted by the only blogs I saw that seemed to make money, I never set up a “make money like me” blog. I felt smarter than a lot of the IM space, like the Clickbank crowd. Clearly those were scams– I would find a better way.

    Unfortunately, that skepticism made it easier to go further up & further in. “Well, this part of Juarez looks pretty bad, but I’m street smart. Let’s see what that noise was over there.” Eventually when none of the really bad stuff I feared– like credit card fraud– happened, I let down my guard more.

    The Third Tribe, or people like them, were there. (I’m not sure who all’s officially in.) McCarthy and his crew clearly knew more about marketing– and I didn’t yet know most of the 3T stuff was dumbed-down versions of Kern, Jeff Walker, Yaro Starak. But the 3T were younger and not as square as the first two. They were dumpy/dorky/approachable enough. Their cross-pollination of each other’s blogs made it easier to accept as legit. Havi and Naomi, Naomi and Clay, Clay and Johnny, I didn’t yet realize that all those vapid “me too” blog comments were for SEO because someone said blog comments got you traffic.

    As I learned, you can’t start a business dabbling around. I had been getting by on my freelance work, but I lost clients to the recession. So I decided to scale back and go all-in with the online business. At this point, I’d been in for probably 9 months or so. I had several web sites, including a service-based site with a few customers who complimented what I was doing. Most people are nice, I doubt they thought too hard about it.

    I’d been groomed to go all-in by blog posts, ebooks, audios. Things like, “You have get in a situation where you’re forced to succeed,” “you have to get out of your comfort zone,” “you have to reprogram your subconscious so your subconscious knows success is its only option, or else it will sabotage you,” whatever that means. I never cut off my family like Jeff Walker suggests, but I sure as hell didn’t talk over my decisions with them. “They don’t understand the Internet, they wouldn’t get it.” My few attempts at getting friends to join up with me– just on techie stuff, like SEO, WordPress development, and AdSense– were met with the skepticism comfort allows. So I started working full-time on this stuff, alone with my “community.”

    The community was incredibly helpful. It was a continuity program with a forum, a hundred-odd members, and a video course. I “met” people and read their posts, saw their “businesses” being cobbled together. The vast majority I could tell even then were utterly clueless about business and tech. Nobody ever said aloud what many of us were thinking, lest they get ostracized or break the spell.

    The video course was not as helpful. It was a webcam/Powerpoint affair that, after a few modules on web hosting and setting up an autoresponder and WordPress (which some of my peers never did figure out), gave an overview of infomarketing online. Lots of action steps, little detail. Write ebooks, find niches no one’s found but don’t fear competition, use his “secret tricks oh my God I can’t believe I’m telling you this” like buying exact match domains. The guru, a student of Naomi Dunford named Clay Collins, did long weekly calls where he met questions with credible-sounding answers. An early video was, “Why Picking a Market Can Be a Pain in the Ass: And Why You Should Chill the **** Out :-)”. The First slide read, “For Some This Just Isn’t About Money. It’s about identity. It’s about mission. It’s about spiritual decision. And it is, by necessity, about money.” He charged $97 a month, had a pressure-sales launch with limited spots that sold out almost immediately. Relive it here: he at one point used this video (sorry, it’s an 88.4 mb FLV, and clicking will download to your hard drive. It shows him sitting in his chair talking about studying people who take businesses from $0 to $10,000 in 2-4 months. At 01:53 he says, “I’m not trying to produce a bunch of millionaires, I’m just trying to get you, you know, 5-10K a month and to help you live a life of massive freedom.” There’s more, but it’s hard to watch. I apologize that it’s not another video of Marnie Stern). He also lifted from David Deida a lot. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

    His mission, as he admitted in a later sales letter, was to prepare his next product, the “Irresistable Offer,” based on the launch for Project Mojave. He spoke variously of the “freedom business” and the “mission business,” “finding your purpose.” It sounded like Rick Warren, and his delivery often reminded me of a traveling preacher. But his About page moved me: he wrote an emotionally-charged piece about his grandfather’s orange farm. An appeal to the soft eco heart: he knew his targets.

    Lanna asked about what kept me going. Clay’s promises should have sent me running. Obviously I figured out once inside Project Mojave that this was bullshit– he turned out a few striving clones for testimonials, but the typical experience we already know. Back to square one, only 3 months to 5 years older.

    Part’s the baby steps. You took no leap, so being somewhere strange doesn’t feel strange. Part’s the community. You feel connection to flickering pixels that stand in for strangers, and they approve of the strangeness just by keeping their doubts quiet. Best not to ruffle feathers. Part’s the blitz: once in the sales funnel, you are bombarded by a scheduled series of launches. (“Launch” is a military term because you are under attack. The tough boys behind IM love those powerful metaphors.) You’re getting blog posts, emails and videos left and right, so you respond by reflex and base instinct. If you want to understand, sign up for an launch’s email list. Part is the goal. We go into the IM scam with a goal in mind, a certain emotional outcome. IM is not the goal, just a means, but eventually abandoning IM feels like abandoning the goal. Further up and further in, you feel like you have fewer and fewer options so IM HAS to work or your hope is dead. It’s throwing good money after bad, one of our charming, sad flaws. Meanwhile, the gurus all tell you to focus on your goals. Think about those great things you’re going to end up with so you’ll get the powerful emotional drive to get them, probably so the gurus can “anchor” themselves to your goal. Whatever. That overestimates the gurus. Really it’s just that you get on this path to mend a wound. Maybe it’s my life’s sudden collapse; maybe it’s a worry, like with your kids’ future, or safety from threats to your womanhood. Naomi likes playing both those cards. Maybe it’s just that we’re getting older every day and some of the loose threads in our lives look like they’ll always stay untied. That’s life. Maybe the wound gets center stage in our minds and runs on a loop, going way past Module 1, taking us step by step to places that are beneath us.

    Whatever it is, know that Naomi and Clay and Frank and Eben, Ken McCarthy and Dan Kennedy and all their buddies work manic overtime to dig deep down into your wounds and see how much money’s in the meat.

    1. @Slowly Waking,
      I’m sorry this happened to you. But thank you for posting about it. I think it’s important for people to understand the process by which these things happen.

      When I became a skeptic in the formal sense, one of the things I learned was that the mindset of:
      “Well I’d never get scammed. Only dumb people get scammed. They deserve what the get.” is WRONG.

      The reality is that anybody that has even an iota of trust and humanity left in them can be scammed. (In other words, the only way to never be scammed would be to actually trust *no one* *ever* and have absolutely no one close to you in your life.) Short of that icky, total cynic option, the only way to reduce the chances of being scammed are to keep a close, tight hold on your wallet, and to keep abreast of as many scams and scammers as you can–sort of like how an anti-virus program routinely updates its virus definition files.

      Btw: I didn’t get scammed out money by any of these IM folks, but I did have a certain low level of trust in them and their advice that I now know was misplaced. And, although I don’t think I’ve ever lost huge piles of cash to any scammers, I have certainly suffered in my time by trusting some person or organization that turned out to be bogus. This has happened both before and after I became a skeptic. Like I was trying to say above: anyone that’s ever capable of trusting anyone else is also capable of being scammed. It’s just one of the sucky aspects of life like cancer or car wrecks.

      1. @Iam3r,

        Online there are the big 3- Porn, gambling and MMO. All follow the same marketing rules.

        You prove this in your post. Substitute gambling or porn, and it is the same story.

        When people recognize this, the MMO group’s marketing will fail.

    2. @Slowly Waking :: Incredible!

      Thanks a lot for this articulate first hand account of how this human-meat-grinder sucks you in & spits you out {minus some moneyz & momentary-self-respectz}.

      Is it just me … or has anyone else noticed how the Trolls have been carefully avoiding @Slowly Walking’s heart-felt personal stories unfolding here in elaborate detail?

      Interesting how, when someone here is speaking elegantly about genuine personal experience of how this Marketing-Cult effected their life … the Trolls are totally silent (while still generally remaining the most active commenters here)

      How about it @Waiting & @Also waiting (& @other-remaining-Naomi-Trolls shilling here) … How do you respond to someone like @Slowly Walking???

      Perhaps your responses have not been forthcoming … because this story hits a little too close to home?

      Helluva Shit Storm here. Or Shit Tsunami? … thanks @Hal (the original Hal) for the terminology upgrade.

      Nice job Naomi :: you win the prize for “Best Self-Promoted Interwebz PR-Train-Wreck EVER!!!”

      The ironic thing here is that Donefor … online PR self-mutilator … is supposed to be a trusted “Marketing” and “Selling” expert. I think her response here pretty much proves otherwise beyond any shadow of a doubt to any unbiased critical observer.

      More like the What Not to Do “Marketing” and “Selling” expert. I’m sure the actual expert-scammer core members of the A-Team Syndicate are carefully studying this one with clenched sphincters.

      Total LOLfest.

    3. @Slowly Waking,
      Thanks so much for taking the time to write this. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

      The part about not talking over decisions with your family reminds me why IM scams can be so hard to recognize from the outside; they take stuff legitimate business advisors say and exaggerate it. Plenty of the entrepreneurial advice I’ve read as I’ve ramped up my own freelance business has said to tune out the naysayers – the people who have nothing but doubts and objections – until you can show them proof of your success. That doesn’t mean cutting them off. It means listening to genuine constructive criticism, tuning out the “but- but- but-” conversations and sometimes talking about something different.

      When I’ve been approached to join up, I’ve definitely met it with skepticism. Not “the skepticism comfort allows” because as a freelancer I definitely don’t have a comfortable income yet. Just skepticism. I’ve tried to keep the lines of communication open. I’ve expressed interest in what they thought of the programs. I never really get any solid information on what they’ve learned (probably little) – just that it was awesome or powerful or some other vague BS.

      I’m kind of thinking aloud and not sure how to proceed. I don’t want to waste my billable hours or income on this stuff to try to prove to them it’s fake. Besides, if I fail, then it’s my fault, right? I wasn’t doing something right. It couldn’t possibly be that the success promised is impossible. Offering alternatives like Google’s resources or MarketingExperiments.com hasn’t helped, either. Anybody got any ideas?

      1. @Lanna, @everybody, thanks. Our friend the Amazon S3 bucket of chicken has this new update:

        Access Denied


        Our 5K-10K a month video is down! Big surprise? Maybe someone’ll put it on youtube.

        Anyway, what to do about people sucked in? Ask them to help you with it and press them when it doesn’t work, taking no excuses?

        Or just repeating the simple question, “How’s that working out for you?” Breadcrumbs on the trail.

        I’m thinking out loud too. It depends on the person, your relationship… but all these scams wilt in the sunlight.

        Anecdotal success testimonials are correlation without causation. (Especially when the stated success is, “I feel like I got Great Value.”)

        But that’s hard to see on the inside.

        The cocooning is dangerous. PD advice is to surround yourself with positive inputs, put up motivational pix of the junk you wanna buy, listen to these 30 hours of content in our membership site. You spend so much time on it, you don’t have to intentionally cut anyone off… and even if you only listen to the content now & then, it gets it in your mental playlist. Gets in the loop.

        But you can’t drag them to a cognitive behavioral therapist.

        You can also be “in the loop” socially– if all your Twitter pals and blog readers are doing the same stuff. Though I never really had friends in MMO– here’s my web 2.0 profile— I didn’t start to get out until I made new connections in real life. Correlation’s still not causation, but how nice to have friends getting you out of the house!

        Has anyone confronted a loved one? I mean, besides the story in Salty’s post.

        What’d you say?

        How’d it go?

        I’ve got to go furniture shopping– I’m halfway moved in to a new place in a new city. But I’ll check back in late tonight.

        Thanks again, everybody.

    4. @Slowly Waking,

      That’s a great, sad post and I can’t argue with it.

      Thankfully none of the emotions you describe resonate with me personally because I don’t have any “open wounds” like the ones you describe, I guess. Not right now, anyway.

      Jaime said I may be an exception to the rule of people signing up for these things, and perhaps that’s true. I hope it isn’t, and I believe it isn’t – because otherwise this site would be flooded with anonymous posts saying “OMG this is so true !” Whereas actually there is a fairly even balance of regular readers who clearly think *all* IM sites are scamming, and others who don’t. I’ve only seen two or three posts saying “this happened to me” – yours is the most powerful.

      I hadn’t seen Clay’s site before – reading his About page was uncomfortable for me – in the same way that I was uncomfortable about Naomi’s “Birthday Present for Jamie” email, and her most recent blog posts. Writing like that plumbs a much deeper, more emotional vein than other things I read, and I do see that they would be especially powerful to readers with “wounds”.

      I still don’t believe that Naomi or Clay are deliberately setting out to exploit the most vulnerable people – but that’s probably because I always want to see good in people. I think they genuinely believe their products will help people in tough circumstances, rather than deliberately setting out to exploit them – but of course there’s no way to know, and I can imagine what you guys will say.

      There’s a similar “bubble” effect here to the one you describe in the Project Mojave or 3T forums, but of the inverse, entirely negative kind, and I think the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes.

      Your post has made me look more critically at the industry, and although I won’t be cancelling my subscriptions as a result (since I don’t see Copyblogger or 3T targeting people with problems) it has opened my eyes to a different side of the story.

      1. @also waiting, thanks for your comment.

        You might be an exception– you said earlier you had a preexisting business? Most don’t. We all get wounds & scars eventually, and I guess it’s sad, but let’s not linger. I’m actually quite happy right now, moving, starting some cool new things, and tomorrow night I’m having dinner with someone rather fetching, things are good.

        The reason you’ve only seen a few “it happened to me” posts is that most victims don’t want to come out, even anonymously. It’s hard. I’ve been here off-and-on a while, and I hadn’t yet told (most) of my story. Sorting things out takes time– I was glad in going through my old “Project Mojave” downloads that they felt like relics from the distant past. Sometimes random commenters ask, “Who would fall for this shit,” so people don’t want to say, “Me!” I do recall a person many months ago who said he was on the brink of suicide after racking up so much debt. I don’t know what happened to him. I also don’t know what happened to most of the people I “met” doing IM. It’s easier to let your hosting lapse and lick your wounds.

        There’s also that self-help language that gets twisted into blaming the victim: “taking responsibility for yourself,” “only you can improve my business.” [haha i meant to write “your” business, but this is how it is for gurus!] You can find this line of speaking in some comments on this page, comments I am rather in awe of. So when the business fails, whose fault is it? Clay Collins, who can’t teach his way out of a brown paper bag, and based his teachings on a made-up “movement” of internet marketers quitting their day jobs? No, victims blame themselves.

        For the rest of your comment, I like seeing good in people too. But we all have the potential for evil. I got less and less comfortable the closer I got to these people. Now, with distance, I’m impressed at what is a nigh-superhuman level of either self-deceit or cynicism.

        Cynicism makes sense. Life’s hard, sharks in the pool, money swaps for power and fame, talent and beauty. But if it’s self-deceit– if he and Naomi actually believe all they say, at the same time as they’re foisting shit training on people and (in Naomi’s case) trying to foist tax liability on a trusting friend, well, that might be worse. I would think it increases their ability to fuck up the world.

        You did say a couple things I’d disagree with about truth & the industry, but let me leave you with this:

        Note how some people who do work with online business, like Conversion Rate Experts, seek corporate clients. Their sales page says, “Unfortunately, we can’t work with companies that have annual profits of less than $500,000; there just aren’t enough of us to go around.”

        Compare Naomi, courting not business but individuals. She sells the itty-bitty business, you can do it when the kids are distracted. She charges fake high prices to make it look like she’s in demand, but gladly takes anyone’s money and ridicules them on her blog when they back out. If a business with $500,000 annual profits tried to retain her services, how would that go? Her entire business is designed to sell to individuals, to n00bs. So was Clay’s. So are Frank Kern’s.

        It’s a symptom of the Internet. They were early adopters, taking bizopp scams online. When I was a kid, I remember having a sleepover and watching a Tommy Vu infomercial. We thought it was hilarious! Partially because we were cracking racist jokes, but we thought everything was ridiculous: the beach babes, the income claims, and especially the fact that his whole system’s based on forcing orphans and widows to sell their houses at cut rates. How stupid, how could anyone fall for that! Then as an adult, rebranded for my MacBook, I fell for it.

        My child self would be very disappointed.

        You have GOT to quit Scribe and the Third Tribe sites! Come on, put that $80/month into a separate online savings account. After a few years you can take a nice vacation in the tropics. Think about it…

        1. @Slowly Waking,

          I think you’re right about the targeting of Naomi & Clay’s blogs – again I’m inclined to see the good and assume they were “writing what they knew” and hadn’t considered the possibility that they were effectively making those least able to use their advice the most likely to buy into it.

          I hear you about cynicism – but I just don’t see life that way. Perhaps I need to move more in that direction, though. As far as the number of comments – maybe you’re right about the reason people aren’t speaking up – I can imagine it’s hard. But based on Salty’s stats, tens of thousands of people at least have read these posts and comments. Of course only a few people have supported the Third Tribe, too. So it’s tough to call.

          One thing I can promise you – I will think very carefully about the marketing of my own products in this light. I don’t write in the emotional way that N & C do, and my products are effectively to do with a high-tech hobby, so I think it’s unlikely people who are hard-up would buy – but I will be aware of this.

          And, I’ll carry on carefully weighing the value of my subscriptions.

          Thanks again for your post and your honesty.

          1. @also waiting, see the good, but browse through ittybiz.com and projectmojavesite.com on Archive.org. Tons of damning evidence there. I linked two of their sales letters in the next post, and reading them now turns my stomach.

            I’m not cynical at all. I believe in love and beauty and human goodness and meaning behind it all. But I also believe in evil, because it’s real. These gurus brought evil into my life when I already had enough to go around. If they brought it unwittingly, holy shit! Like a kid playing with a shotgun.

            People gotta work, businesses gotta market. Just do it well, treat your customers well, and spend less time in the world of marketing hoohah and more with your family and friends. That’s all I ask.

    5. @Slowly Waking, just wanted to chime in with many others to thank you for your post. Totally resonated even though my details are very different. My weakness was copywriting courses and I bought thousands of dollars of them, thinking that maybe the next one would finally be my ticket to a six figure income working at home yada yada.

      For a long time I could not understand why I couldn’t make it work, I had good writing skills and seemed to understand marketing principles fine. It was my conscience telling me it was ethically and morally wrong to use manipulative tactics to exploit people’s emotional vulnerabilities to sell crappy, worthless products, but it makes me sick now to think of how hard I tried to silence that truth and kept trying to build the “skills”. Your story is sad but strangely comforting because I see now that someone with intelligence, youth and a work ethic could get as sucked into this sticky web as I did.

      There are different categories of scams, some are blatantly illegal like advertising a fictitious car on Craig’s list and stealing people’s money… and others are way more subtle, with “two sides”, lots of gray areas, questions, ambiguities and either-or relativity, arguable points and so on. Yuck. These are almost more dangerous because it takes so long to learn the lesson. By that time you have lost not just money but time and self respect.

      Thanks again for sharing your story.

  20. I visited this site for the first time last week after Naomi’s post on death threats piqued my curiosity.

    Yes, I’m outing myself as a (recovering) fan. I’ve never bought anything from Naomi, but I have more than one of Dave’s products.

    In the last 5 days, I’ve read through maybe 15 posts on this site. With a sickening feeling.

    I’ve been here before.

    A few years ago, a very close friend of mine recruited me into Mary Kay. Her mother has sold MK for years. My friend was supposedly making money, but I really got involved because I knew it would help her and I could make some money on the side. But the more I got drawn into the MK universe, the more I knew it was a scam. When I actually went to one of their conferences with my friend, I woke up. It just didn’t add up. All these women, including me, were being sold a pipe dream.

    And I was letting it happen again with the internet marketing crowd.

    Before I came across these posts, I was already seeing the truth. I repeatedly reminded myself: My business is not internet marketing. Their strategies are not my strategies. That is my competitive advantage — I have a hard-earned skill. I have legit experience in my field. I have a unique model. Whether clients prefer my model to the traditional approach is what will determine the success or failure of my business, not how many backs I scratch.

    My friend, who still sells MK for a living is not a bad person. But I do believe her recruiting tactics are unethical. She is so “in the fog” as they call it.

    And I see how many of my blogger friends are in the fog of internet marketing.

    1. @Been there before,

      Yep, MK is a scam, as is MonaVie and Kangen water systems. MonaVie is based in Salt Lake City, Utah, the scam center of the universe. I’m sure your friend isn’t a bad person but I’m also sure she isn’t making a huge income selling crap skincare and drugstore cheapie makeup at inflated prices. But, actually that’s a good thing…less people scammed.

      1. @Barbara,

        Unfortunately, the way they “make their money” is through recruiting. They payouts for bringing in newbies with little idea of how the structure works is much greater than any profit made off physical products. Most of which are bought by the “consultants” on credit, only to sit in their basements until they get tossed.

        Oh, wait…I think that could be similar to some other scams we’re talking about…

    1. @ringo estrela, True Believer by Eric Hoffer comes to mind.

      And also Bob Cialdini’s Influence, Joost Merloo – The Rape of Mind and maybe Blair Warren’s The Forbidden Keys to Persuasion

    1. @Cosmic Connie,

      You and yours are in my thoughts and prayers, Connie, and all others in that sad situation. Bless you.

    2. @Cosmic Connie, Hey CC – hope you guys and all critters are safe – will be thinking of you. Got an extra room, and lots of yard space here if you need it.

    3. @Cosmic Connie ::

      Maybe you should just keep driving … as far from Rick Parry as possible. Go west young man :: Texas is for bastards.

      1. Thanks to everyone for your good wishes. We’re back for now… looks like the fires are contained as of now (that’s what they’re telling us, anyway), but I am not ready to unpack the bug-out bags quite yet. There is still a lot of smoke around here! One moment it’s clear-ish, the next moment very, very smoky. And scary. They’ve evacuated the horses from the property around us, so that does not bode well.

        And oh, @SD, I would love to get far, far away from Rick Perry, and if by some gawd-awful turn of fate he becomes president, Ron and I are seriously thinking of moving to Canada or even further away. Perry notwithstanding, going west sounds like a good idea in general. I’ve been having these dreams for the past ten years or so that we were moving to Utah. But that does NOT seem like such a good idea, all things considered.

        I need to go catch up on some sleep now, but before I do I have to go read the latest spidey post. Laters!

    1. @jingxiamnh,

      If you just discovered this blog through “Google,” why are you promoting China’s state-controlled, censored search engine “Baidu” in your link, you dim-witted fuckwad?

      Fuck the government of China!

  21. I’m curious as to how you got hold of an online conversation between Dave and Naomi. You’re talking about them giving proof, where’s your proof that they said all this? How do we, your readers, know that you didn’t write this yourself?

    1. @Mel,

      SD has something of an established reputation for providing solid evidence of misdeeds, including legal documents, recordings, videos, etc.

      Most unbiased, logical people would look at the significant timespan of his work, its breadth, the totality of that work, his consistency, and the complete absence of any prior proof that he has ever had previous evidence proven false. They would also note that the U.S. government has sought his testimony as a result of his research supporting this blog.

      He also has a law degree and the capabilities that go with it, served our country in the armed forces, and receives no income whatsoever for what is obviously a sincere mission to help people. The proof is in the action, and it’s all out in the open.

      From all this, it is easily deduced that SD has an extremely high level of credibility.

      On the other hand, he is being questioned by someone (you) who operates a for-profit web site called “twohourbusinessplan.com” which would lead people to think they could have a viable business plan in two hours, but then you say this, buried in the text:

      “Can I really make a business plan in just two hours? Yes and no. The audio’s are around 45 minutes each. The workbook will take as long as it takes. You certainly can do it in two hours, but I’d suggest spending a bit more time to review it and make sure it’s what you really want.”

      That doesn’t really sound like a two hour business plan, even though the site is called “Two Hour Business Plan.”

      I won’t even get into the “bonuses” which you have attached astronomical “values” to, seemingly grasped out of thin air.

      You really have no business questioning SD as much as you need to be questioning yourself. That goes for a lot of people who’ve been throwing mud around here lately.

  22. As a side note – for the incessant trolly-birdz chirping “Where’s the source” …

    You obviously have never heard of filing a defamation lawsuit ::

    defamation is a false and unprivileged statement of fact that is harmful to someone’s reputation, and published “with fault,” meaning as a result of negligence or malice.

    If @SD posted something here that was veritably untrue, don’t you think these frauds would be filing suit faster than you can say “call my attorney”?

    1. @Doctor Mario, You may wish to look up the dictionary meaning of ‘incessant’ but I’ll save you the trouble:

      From Dictionary.com the definition is “adjective
      continuing without interruption; ceaseless; unending:” My source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incessant

      One comment asking where the discussion came from does not make me ‘incessant’.

      Your accusation that I am a troll I find quite amusing. Maybe I should ask for proof that SD has no defamation claims past, current or pending?

      SD is asking us to accept that his information is factual, and insisting that others provide proof that their information is not fraud – but it’s not allowed to ask SD for proof?

      1. @Mel ::

        I didn’t accuse you of anything. I accused an incessant group of trolly-birdz chirping something {incessantly}.

        But since you are taking up their call … you may wish to ::

        (a) Read the rest of the comments leading up to your own — before you self-indulgently assume you’re the first trolly-bird to chirp this.

        Because actually you are the 6th :: after ::

        @Maybe I missed it

        (b) Read a few posts on this blog before talking about what @SD is “asking us to accept” …

        After some time here myself, @SD hasn’t asked me to accept anything. By my read, these are just a bunch of funny blog posts by a fake robot hobbyist (followed by a ton of emotionally raw & unfiltered commentary).

        He’s not writing a peer reviewed dissertation, @Mel. He’s poking fun. And treading a thin line between legal, protected speech & libelous defamation.

        I never accept that @SD’s information is factual :: and neither should you or anyone :: IT IS A FUCKING SATIRE BLOG!

        Do your own homework.

        But I do imagine that @SD does quite a bit more fact checking than most of us … what with his legal background & obviously precarious hobby of baiting the interwebz-demons.

        If he didn’t, I’m sure he wouldn’t be able to afford this incredibly amusing & justice-inflicting hobby w/o going broke over all the “defamation claims past, current or pending.”

        1. @Doctor Mario ::

          I wouldn’t say I’m treading a fine line with defamation actually. In fact :: I hope that I never approach that line … because it’s far below where a robot of integrity should be aiming.

          If the above transcript was a total fake … I still wouldn’t be liable because I have a good faith belief that it’s not a fake. In America :: you have to know that it’s false … or should have known that it was false … depending on what you’re talking about. Just being wrong is not enough.

          New York Times vs. Sullivan was one of the most important Supreme Court cases ever … IMO … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan … and people who want to be bloggers :: who are also Americans :: should read all about it and feel confident in their right to express themselves.

          @Mel ::

          I never talk about my sources :: because these are scary situations … an because people like Naomi Dunford and Harlan Kilstein lash out insanely. Other people give me the infos :: I handle the lash outs.

          But I’m not asking you to trust me :: you can look at it yourself and make your own determination about its authenticity.

          1. @SD :: That is very illuminating stuff … excuse me for being a legal n00b there. Maybe I’m not the only one wondering — so could you perhaps indulge me/us with two quick questions on this matter?

            1.) What exactly would it mean to publish something with “reckless lack of investigation”? … i.e. – a situation where you “should have known that it was fake,” in spite of your “good faith belief” that it was not.

            … and …

            2.) What if {hypothetically} someone somehow proved that something published was fake, and asked you to publish an “equally conspicuous” retraction — what would happen then? Would you be legally compelled to do the retraction? Would the retraction protect you from legal action?

            Clearly … blog comments = appropriate venue for legal advice … but as you point out, this is definitely relevant to the many {opinionated} bloggers reading.

            1. @Doctor Mario ::

              1) It’s like intentional ignorance … you’re not investigating because you know the truth won’t suit you.

              2) A retraction can help limit your damages even if you’re found to have been defamatory. Plus :: if you find out your wrong a retraction is just the right thing to do … especially for a blogger. Admitting you made and honest mistake will build credibility :: hiding an honest mistake could totally ruin your credibility.

        2. Sigh.


          Some familiar names:


          Two hour business plan (you canz do it!):


          Can I really make a business plan in just two hours? Yes and no. The audio’s are around 45 minutes each. The workbook will take as long as it takes. You certainly can do it in two hours, but I’d suggest spending a bit more time to review it and make sure it’s what you really want.

          Maybe she should change that web site’s name to this:




          Bring your own kool-aid!

            1. @SD, I received hate email from my comments on that post. it was a real eye-opener, and funny in a kind of twisted way.

          1. @Researchatron 5100, yup, that’s me. Or it was… I sold the website/business early this year.

            And yes, I’m on Copyblogger as a guest poster, in the comments, and on Ittybiz etc.

            I’ve bought products from both Ittybiz and Dave Navarro and learnt a lot from both of them.

            I don’t agree with what they’ve done, but that doesn’t negate the fact that I’ve learned from them.

            1. @Melinda,

              I saw your comments on IttyBiz that you said you received hate mail because of, on the ItyyBiz blog with this clever writing by guestblogger Johnny Truant:

              “So I says to Naomi, I says, “Why don’t I use your stuff and your advice to make money online….And you can coach me through it. Turn me into a millionaire.”

              “And she says to me she says, “Shit cocksucker motherfucker doubleshit.”

              “And if you want, you can and should follow along. I think Naomi is going to leave comments on for at least selected posts, and I asked her if she’d leave comments on for my posts, and she said, “Fuckstick asswipe doucherocket!”

              I truly do not understand how you, or anybody, could have continued taking these people seriously as a source of business advice. That had to be one of the most childishly stupid pieces of writing I’ve ever read online.

            2. @Melinda,

              John Wayne Gacy (the mass murderer who went around dressed as a clown and killed dozens of young boys) created and sold paintings of clowns from his prison cell.

              You could apply your same argument by saying, “I don’t agree with what he’s done, but that doesn’t negate the fact that I’ve enjoyed his clown paintings.”

              You might also argue that the hand that received your payment for one of his clown paintings was not the SAME hand that he used to murder all those boys.

              Unfortunately, you can’t support one hand without also helping the other.

              Think about that.

        3. @Doctor Mario, sorry, I did think your comment was aimed at me. I read about a third of the way through the comments and decided I didn’t need to read any more angst. At that point I hadn’t seen anyone asking where the discussion came from.

          It was a completely innocent question – I was wondering how SD would get hold of something like this. Sure, probably a stupid question, no-one is going to reveal their sources. What struck me is that this had to come from someone close to Naomi or Dave, someone who has access to their computer.

          Regardless of what’s gone before, I find it sad that someone who had been/is close to them would publicise personal discussions.

          1. @Melinda, in this case the decision to “publicise personal discussions” is better termed “whistleblowing.”

            1. @Slowly Waking, No, whistleblowing is telling the authorities, those who can do something about it. Putting it here smacks of vengeance.

            2. @Melinda,

              Putting it here is using the exact same tactics of publicity that Shittybiz relies on to promote its scam.

              Using the emotionally loaded term ‘vengence’ for an acceptable expose of some very murky and ethically questionable business practices betrays your own complicity in those same murky tactics.

              If you could avoid being so driven by Naomi’s ramping up of the emotional drama, you might see that for yourself.

            3. @Melinda, one problem in the IM space is that telling the authorities doesn’t result in jail time for the criminals.

              If you look at past FTC actions (one of which nabbed Frank Kern, a hero to Dunford and many others), they often rely on broad-ranging sweeps to nail whole categories of scammers. I think “Operation Empty Promises” is the most recent. But those sweeps happen because they just don’t have the resources to nab smaller operators one by one, especially when vast swathes of elected officials openly state the only purpose of government programs is to be cut.

              I hope everyone who has been scammed will report their experiences, with supporting documents, to the FTC, state attorneys general, and the local and national media. I did. However, until those people begin to match the speed and flexibility of the scammers, SD provides a much-needed corrective. And a much-needed bit of relief for victims like me.

            4. @Stoic said:

              “Using the emotionally loaded term ‘vengence’ for an acceptable expose of some very murky and ethically questionable business practices betrays your own complicity in those same murky tactics.”

              Well said, Stoic. That reveals Melinda to be another grandstander and enabler, and not someone interested in the truth.

      2. @Melinda Brennan,

        From your about page …

        “My Qualifications

        I hold accredited coaching qualifications from New Insights Coaching as well as Professional Certified Coach credentials from the International Coach Academy. I am also qualified to use Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) and Time Line Therapy (TLT), both very useful therapeutic tools for helping you figure out what you want from your WAHM business venture.

        I’m President and Area Leader for the Canberra Chapter of the International Coach Federation and a member of the Christian Coaches Network.”

        … so, basically, you no qualifications whatsoever.

        Why aren’t you coaches embarrassed by how little you accomplished yet feel the need to tell others how to do? It’s a impossible to comprehend.

        What’s the internal dialog that started the train wreck you call a career?

        Does it go back to the standard “those who can’t do, teach”?

  23. Oh, thanks for reminding me, I’d forgotten that everyone is guilty by association. I’ve updated my post on How To Comment to include it:


    And here’s the text to save you the click time.

    You’re already guilty

    You may not realise it, but if you have anything to do with internet marketing or “making money online”, you are already One Of Them and Part Of The Problem. Even if you’re a deeply ethical person who worries daily about what you do – you’ve already been brainwashed.

    In the Salty Droid’s opinion.

    Here are some examples:

    – If you’ve promoted one of “those” products – you’re guilty
    – If you’ve ever guest posted on one of “those” sites – you’re guilty
    – Hell, if you’ve ever even commented on one of those sites – you’re guilty
    – You may even be guilty if you once bought an IM or MMO product – well, if you didn’t think you were scammed when you bought it, that is
    – You’re probably guilty if you ever even thought about buying one, because you’re starting to Think Like Them…

    Let’s be honest – there’s plenty of really aggressive, unpleasant marketing on the internet, just as there is in the real world. And some of the people doing that marketing are almost certainly sleaze-balls – just like the real world.

    That doesn’t make everyone a monster, though.

    Except according to the Salty Droid and his “satirical”, publicity-seeking conspiracy-theory-based website, it does.

    (It’s ironic really – again – because although Jason says himself in that interview (http://www.seobook.com/salty-droid-interview) and over and over again, on his site

    Jason Jones: “Well, I don’t believe that you can make money online, number one. And no one’s ever been able to convince me by showing anyone who’s doing it.”

    – and then, immediately afterwards:

    “I don’t have some aversion to making money from it. I don’t think it’s evil to make money off of the Internet. And I’m kind of getting close now. Now I have a big audience, and if I wanted to try to do something non-exploitative, I have some ideas that I think could work. And I’m definitely not against turning it into something.

    It’ll be weird now if I make money online, because my primary message is that you can’t make money online. But it is like that. It’s like, “Yeah!” If I end up making some money doing this it’s because I built up a mass audience.

    But that’s almost impossible, so much that you should not be thinking about that. If that’s one of the specs in your business plan, “Build up mass audience,” then forget it. That’s not a realistic goal.”

    So as far as I can tell, the Salty Droid’s message in a nutshell is something like:

    “YOU can’t make money online. I can, but you can’t. If YOU do it (or even try) then you’re part of the scam, and I’m going to tell the world. But when I do it, well that’s different”

    Or something. Anyway, just remember – you’re guilty.

    1. @for suck’s fake,

      How strange that not one of the big dogs of IM–who have been thoroughly and hilariously eviscerated here in the past—have thought it wise to set up a piss-poor imitation of a dedicated page in opposition to the Droid’s entertaining blog.

      It takes a Third Triber?(whatever that is)to make such an elementary mistake.
      Doesn’t say much about the quality of teaching/mentoring you have bought into.

      1. @stoic,
        Interesting tone to your comment. I am left wondering if it is a veiled threat. Evicerate means disembowlment. Perhaps you are making a public service anouncement that dissent is not allowed and a mistake?

        1. @curious,
          Not to curtail your wondering but it might help some if you engage the brain.
          My comment used the past tense ‘who have been ….eviscerated here in the past’, and yet none of them is currently either without their bowels or definitely dead.

          How can that be?

          I hope that this clears up your wondering about veiled threats and the even more dubious ‘death threats’.

          BTW, I am not in the habit making threats, veiled or otherwise–if I want to attack you I will do it openly so that you are in no doubt that you are being attacked. Its that old army training, kicking in.


          The trouble with buying into the instant success fantasy peddled by Shittybiz and its ilk is the ensuing inability to distinguish between reality and the fevered fantasies dreamed up in one’s own head.

    2. @for suck’s fake ::

      I don’t know who you are … but you are definitely one of the most interesting & highly committed shills trolling here in a long while.

      Most people, when creating a spinoff blog site to contrast the Salty Droid, put in much less effort than you have. It is clear, you are really invested in your argument & weblog battle against this site.

      That is why I submitted a very elaborate & thoughtful comment there – that may be moderated away – so I will post it here :: in this web-zone of actually-free-speech.

      “Dear Sad Salty Droid Commenters ::

      I think [@for suck’s fake’s] site … while exemplifying the hurt feelings of its author(s) … is actually a worthy read for anyone thinking of going to an inflammatory interwebz site & making successful comments {before supplies run out!}

      The thing is :: it’s pretty obvious from everyone’s tone [there] :: i.e. – “I had to look up troll” :: that you are a bunch of interwebz n00bs!

      @SD is obviously not … nor are those at the top of the scam-pyramids he targets … hence his hilarious interwebz savvy writing style. It’s what the kids r n2 these days & stuffz.

      It’s not like you are commenting on a supposed “neutral” major media outlet. saltydroid.info is a mega-biased, “offensive,” shit storm stirring web-phenomenon. One must keep this in mind when commenting. Obvious-101 duh-fest x1000.

      Even the site’s author takes on an assumed character role – of a vulgar fake robot! funny! – to post the blog entries. This should give you a major clue as to what type of social environment you may be dipping into.

      However … to talk of the “irony” that the “[Salty Droid] site is groupthink at its worst” … is a bit of a giant-fucking-overstatement.


      Lest those with hurt feelings [go to your little site] – grouchy – and miss the whole point of the Salty Droid:

      Here’s some differences between @SD :: vs :: @Scammers that appear in his {targeting} section.

      #1.) @SD is a satire comedy site :: @Scammers are “businesses” taking people’s savings.

      #2.) @SD openly admits his bias :: @Scammers play anonymous “defend the monkey” — while simultaneously attempting to conceal their {financial} ties to those profiled.

      #3.) @SD encourages dissenters to be ridiculed & mocked :: @Scammers silence dissent entirely by disabling comments & banning people from their chats.

      #4.) @SD has an established reputation for providing solid evidence for his claims :: @Scammers rely on unverifiable claims & ILLEGAL testimonials to sell frauducts

      #5.) @SD is huhlarious! :: @Scammers … are not.


      I’d like to say I’m sorry that so many people [come here] and get all butt-hurt about being anonymously flamed in the comment section … but I’m not.

      Because honestly – if you didn’t expect that to happen – well …

      Ultimately, I actually agree with what [the silly saltydroidhelp.wordpress] site is doing. Interwebz battles can be dangerous psychological territory for online n00bs & the obsessive or unstable.

      Here’s my add-on advice to add to [that other] site:

      … If you have to look up “trolling”
      … and you are offended by a weblog filled with swearing & cursing
      … and you disagree with what you’re reading on that site
      … and you’re mad enough that you feel a need to say something about it
      … you better be DAMN sure you’re prepared to step into the arena with that bullseye on your forehead.

      Take a breath – and think – “What good could come of this? … What bad?”

      If I was you, after weighing my options, I’d probably just stay quiet. Or go find a site with a contrasting view point that matches your own – and join in the discussion there.

      This applies to all inflammatory websites. Not just the Salty Droid.

      At least it is a good opportunity for you n00bs to learn about the working of the complicated tubes that power the interwebz-universe.”

      I hope you post my comment on your own site too @for suck’s fake … or find yourself falling prey to that “groupthink at its worst” which you are so fast to condemn.

      1. @Doctor Mario, The salty droid is an overall good site to have; even a must.

        But I am afraid that this site slowly gets out of hand.
        I am not talking about the posts, but the comments; there’s a herd here – And it’s blind.

        I agree with most posts and think that those who were marked as scammers are indeed scammers.

        But comments like “You will never make money online” (Which was written by TheSaltyDroid) is idiotic, not accurate, too personal and can never be measured.

        There are people behind those comments, I think everyone here should think a second before they submit comments like that.

        1. @987 ::

          I’m actually thinking about changing my tagline to that :: in fact :: fuck it :: I just did.

          You can’t hunt unicorns without killing unicorns {not a death threat}. Know what I mean??

          “bleep bloop” wasn’t a very SEO friendly tagline anywayz … so I’m sure this will make AWOL very impressed.

          1. @SD :: NOOOOO!!! My unicooorrrrnnnn!!!!!

            I can’t make money online??? In tagline … must be true … too personal … feelingz … hurting … raaaaargh

            Now you’re going to make me quit my blog spamming & life+business coaching career {/in a huff} … and go back to my day job at Best Buy … thanks for nothing, robot :-/

        2. @987,

          I don’t think Salty is inferring that it is utterly impossible to start an online business. Obviously, if you have the brains, talent, dedication, and a great idea, and you start a company like Amazon, Facebook, etc, then you will make money online. The tagline isn’t meant to persuade Zuckerberg that he’s in the wrong business.

          The point is that *almost nobody has that combination!* Read that last sentence a few times. You could walk up to almost every human being and say “You will never make money online” and you will almost always be right. You could also say “You will never be President”, or “You will never become an overnight millionaire on the lottery”. Obviously a few individuals have, but almost everyone else just clings to it as a vague hope that they secretly know will never be fulfilled. There’s nothing wrong this this, per se.

          There IS something wrong though, with ruining what is real for the sake of an illusion. Draining your life savings, maxing out your credit cards, quitting your job – these measures are often painted by scammers as signs of an entrepreneurial spirit. What they omit to say is that entrepreneurs only behave this way when they know they have an edge. If you have an amazing idea for an online business, I could understand your taking these risks. But buyers of info products DO NOT have an edge. Becoming an Amazon affiliate does not give you an edge; selling get-rich-quick info does not give you an edge.

          Since I mentioned the lottery, try to think of online success as a casino game. The house (Google, Netflix, Amazon, eBay, any established company in your field) has an edge. Players come to the table clutching a copy of Frank Kern’s Mass Control. They slowly lose everything, because the game is stacked against them; they have no way to erode the house’s edge. SEO will always be an uphill battle. PPC costs will endlessly gravitate upwards. True viral popularity will never come. These people, it is safe to say, “will never make money online”. Very, very occasionally, a new player with a well-executed and brilliant idea will come along and upset the order of things. But those people don’t need to read this blog, because they’ve never bought Mass Control. They know that you must bring something unique and original to the table.

          To anyone reading this: You will never make money online. You will never be President of the United States. You will never become an overnight millionaire on the lottery.

          1. @208-577-6210, Bingo. Salty is NOT saying an absolute “Nobody can possibly ever make a living via the internet.”

            However, statistically speaking, ALMOST nobody will. In fact, even those who by all accounts have some advantages (brains, money, connections) are still likely to fail.

            When you are trying to help those “almost nobodies” (which are the majority), you don’t water down a nearly universal truth with a bunch of qualifiers and “buts” that the scammers will only exploit to justify their own sleazy existence.

          2. @208-577-6210,

            You are being unfair to casinos- they post the odds, and the odds of beating the house are far, far better than the odds of making money as an “internet marketer”.

            Of course, the “internet marketers” are failures no matter how much money they make online. Much thanks to the Droid for publicizing their efforts to make THAT crystal clear.

            1. @Grover Lembeck,

              That made me laugh, because you’re quite right. I apologise unreservedly to casinos everywhere.

              An American roulette wheel has a house edge of 5.26%, so you lose only:

              $5.10 for every $97 staked..
              $26.14 for every $497 staked..
              $105.04 for every $1997 staked..

              and for the price of Mass Control, you could have a nice long game of roulette, losing just $157.64 from your $2997 stake.

              I think if there’s one lesson we can take away from this, it’s that playing roulette is the key to overnight riches and we should all do it as much as possible.

    1. @for suck’s fake,

      I read what you had to say and I could not disagree more. First of all, I’m relatively new here myself. I came here following the James Ray story. I was gratified to find a community of like-minded individuals who felt, as I did, that Ray murdered four people.

      But unlike the majority of people who have recently rushed here after Naomi’s bogus “death threats” post I did my homework before I ever once commented. I read many, many back blog posts by Salty Droid. I did my own indepenent searches on individuals named that I didn’t recognize. I read all the comments and soon could recognize the more valuable commenters at the site. I took the time to learn the culture, to see what type of language was acceptable, to try and understand the shared jokes and assumptions, etc.

      I didn’t rush in shouldering experts aside, claiming to know more about topics others here were far more knowledgable on than I was, correcting people right and left, contradicting others. But that’s what I’ve seen happening lately.

      People who begin by saying ” I’ve only read a couple of comments here BUT…” and who then tear the site apart based on their admitted very limited grasp of the issues.

      Or, “I don’t have time to read through all of this BUT..”

      I have an idea. If you cannot be bothered to even READ THE FUCKING SITE then how about you shut the fuck up? And quoting Yvette was priceless. Seriously…Yvette?!

      “They call me Troll;
      Gnawer of the Moon,
      Giant of the Gale-blasts,
      Curse of the rain-hall,
      Companion of the Sibyl,
      Nightroaming hag,
      Swallower of the loaf of heaven.
      What is a Troll but that?”

      from Skáldskaparmál by Bragi Boddason

    2. @for suck’s fake, “It’s too long to put here.” Lame, obvious, manipulative. You are without question truly psychotic.

  24. Please give me the Cliff’s Notes of the Naomi saga and the comments.

    I may pay 37 USD for a PDF out of it.

    Or not.

  25. You know what’s funny?

    The spider’s fast shrinking fan base has probably commented more on this post than any post ever on the spider’s own ickybiz blog. Granted, it’s probably only 2 people with 46 split personalities between them, but still.

    And amazingly, that’s even with what may be disappointingly less cursing here, and without posts about urinating under the kitchen table, getting your child high, lying tips, or sophisticated techniques like using the word “thong” to get visitors to your business blog.

  26. @Carol,

    “Lame, obvious, manipulative.”

    Not meant to be. The last time I posted the text too and got a “tl;dr”. If you really want me to post it I’ll be happy to.

    “You are without question truly psychotic.”

    Interesting. From Wikipedia:

    “a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a “loss of contact with reality””.

    Do me a favour – read the first page on my site and tell me exactly which bits you think are out of touch with reality ? Oh wait, I forgot – you think posting a link is lame, obvious, manipulative. Well sorry, I’m not going to re-post it, because then I’d be called a spammer. Hm, I’m starting to think I can’t win – oh wait, THAT’S THE POINT, isn’t it ?

    Well, here’s the link anyway.


    Bear in mind it’s only about the “commenting culture” here – not the content of this site. It’s about people like YOU.

    1. @for suck’s fake ::

      Hm, I’m starting to think I can’t win – oh wait, THAT’S THE POINT, isn’t it ?

      Yep :: well if I’m winning … you can’t be winning … it’s kinda what winning means. And I’m pretty sure that’s the point :: isn’t it?

      1. @Carol,

        OCD – Obsessive Compulsive Disorder – replying to comments, you mean ? Like all the regulars here ?


        Winning in his own comments section – a triumph. Enjoy the hollowness.

        1. @for suck’s fake, I don’t think we’ve met before, and from what I’ve noticed, I’d say you are 100% psycho. Toodles.

  27. so Dave’s stuff has appeared in one of the larger online business torrent sites. someone linked here. then this comment:

    “Turns out dave doesn’t do many of the things he claimed and is actually a broke Guru who is faking it till he makes it

    what a surprise

    This is the reason nobody here wants to pay for any of this stuff”


  28. Wow. This post really hit a home run! Spot on, and nearly 800 comments, too.

    Made a LOT of people completely rethink who they listen to and associate with.

    What an eye opener!

    1. @anon ::

      How did you get hold of such an orignal question? Was it in a book or something?

      Seriously :: I’m interested. Contact my secretary Debbie with your answers … she can be reached inside the depths of your mind.

      I hope this helped.

      1. @SD,

        wow. you’re sugar sweet aren’t you? i guess that comes from spreading hate without cause.

        what was that you said in your about page … “hurting without adequate provocation” … so tell me smartie, what exactly provoked you to make such an ass of yourself bitching about others to such an extent?

        lemme guess, sour grapes??

        You got to go to a big college didn’t you? So if that small guy who didn’t have that chance, became a cook instead and sold his recipes online & actually made money, you would call him a fraud till kingdom come. And the guy who spent time & energy working with the cook on building his side income would be a devil incarnate.

        You know who you are? The opposite end of Ryan Diess. He makes a fool of himself making everything sound like the end of the world. You make a fool of yourself by making everything dark and ugly.

        Hahaha. Bring on the dislikes foolish. You’re the kind who does the easiest thing possible.

        Criticize everyone while sitting on a pile of dough yourself. Oh and the number of personal attacks you’ve made on a whole bunch of people – VERY MATURE.

        1. @anon ::

          Can you please go trolling on the newer Spider Shit Storm Redux?

          We already covered your whole current line of thinking with several other trolls on this post … way back in Sep 2011!

          But I am sure the SD readers could use you & your trolly troll friends on that newer post here.

            1. @SD, So very true. In a civilized society, decorum dictates that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the fucking asshole trolls. That’s why I would never tell that troll to eat shit and die, but rather, to consume guano and expire.

        2. @anon, You sound more than a little obsessed, and more than a little bit of a douchebag. The stink of your slimy agenda can be smelled even over the internet.

          The jury of public opinion issued its collective verdict on this rotten egg months ago. Maybe you need to have your head examined, or better yet, just get a new one, because the one you have now is a lemon.

    1. @anon,

      I’m just curious.

      How did you manage to submit the same inane question twice?

      Coz that is rather odd.

  29. Omg that is the longest. Fuking post blog I have ever read about someone stop analyzing Dave and get a life

Comments are closed.