Sonia Simone’s Shame

Sonia Simone "Expert" Opinions

Sonia Simone and Naomi Dunford are BFFs :: they bonded early {and often} over their mutual love of other people’s money. In a 2008 post on Sonia’s typepad blog :: celebrating her one whole year anniversary in blogging … she gave a shout out to the unlovely Ms. Spider Dunford …

The now-infamous Naomi Dunford found Remarkable Communication right around the middle of September and showed up for the first time in my comments. She proceeded to start a little blog on home business marketing that instantly trounced mine for traffic and subscribers, but I love her anyway.

She “loves” her :: in the real way … not in the fake {I’ll leave you whenever it’s fucking convenient for me} way that Naomi “loves” her own children.

Brian Clark showed up in the comments on a post called Make Something for Its Own Sake, getting me all flustered and pleased. Copyblogger linked to that post, which was even nicer.

Oh aren’t we all just an adorable french for trade union family? What blight futures we’ll all have together :: lying to other people about the impossible … and stuff.

I screwed up my courage and sent Brian Clark a tweet to ask if he might maybe some day, if he got sick or broke his fingers or something, maybe want a guest post? To my happy shock, he asked me if I’d be willing to write for Copyblogger regularly. More cheer.

Yeah :: nothing says “cheer” like free labor … for a lady bully … a Sonia bully … good times.

Welcoming Seth Godin :: who is as sloppy as he is bald …

Seth Godin was my first commenter, on a post called The Joys of Eclectic Blogging. I will confess that this cheered me up quite a bit.

Seth squidooed a comment on the anniversary post as well …

Bit by bit, drip by drip.

Great work triumphs.

Good to have you here. Makes it better for the rest of us.

Something’s dripping alright {I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean … but please assume that it’s terribly offensive}.

Dave Navarro’s “hey don’t forget about me just because I’m lifetime B-team” comment …

Hey, I’m here, you didn’t even have to bait me. :-p

Congrats on the 1,000 RSS!

This is how 21st century business gets done I guess :: like 20th century Sicily or something … fucking barf … 2.0.

The next year Sonia and Naomi released a how-to frauduct bullshitily branded Marketing for Nice People

The Real Secret to Making Your Business Work (we’ll give it to you for free)

How’s that for a traditional sleazy/squeezy headline? But really, no kidding, this actually is the secret.

… said the first lines of the sales page.

How’s that for traditional sleazy? Pretty perfect :: especially the part where your main selling hook is … “we’re not like them.” How could a couple of gals who so readily admit to the general existence of sleaze :: be themselves … totally sleazy? Unfortunately for the masses of uninitiated :: the answer is … quite easily.  I listened to some of Marketing for Nice People :: worse than the counterproductive and silly “business” content … was the horrid amateur hour audio quality.

That year {and in years following} :: Sonia was so pretend successful making money online … that she was keynoting BlogWorld events about making money online. Fake it until you {sort of} make it :: then still fake it … but less so. It’s a popular Copyblogger A-teamer axiom … or something. And Sonia never missed an opportunity to plug Naomi … referencing her fellow faker religiously.

Sonia knows that Naomi {like almost everyone else in the biz} is not successful :: she lives score to score … and she’s never taken so much as a fucking whiff of wealth or independence. Sonia and Naomi had to pool their resources in order to learn how to be proper assholes by buying Frank Kern’s Mass Control {speaking of somebody who only started making money by telling other people about all the monies he’d already made … the blind leading the blinder}. Sonia tells a story in Marketing for Nice People about how when they first met :: Naomi couldn’t afford to make a $50 donation to charity without maxing out her credit card … very little about that ever changed. Only the lies evolved and made progress.

This video starts at BlogWorld with Sonia :: sandwiched by Brian Clark and Darren Rowse :: lauding Naomi for being such a fine example of the “strategic fuck up” … quite asspirational. It ends {after a major malfunction of the fourth wall} like everything in Scamworld ends :: with horror and sadness and lives destroyed … in this case that of small adorable children.

There’s no leaving now.

When Naomi :: backed into a scammy spider corner … accused The Salty Droid of sending her death threats … Sonia {along with the rest of the copybloggers} gladly promoted it. When Naomi used the viral traffic from the fake death threats to ask for money … Sonia called it a great example of rising above. When I posted Alison in Plunderland :: Sonia {along with the rest of the copybloggers} said nothing … because the truth doesn’t pay commissions.

But when a customer brought up the whole nasty situation on BrianSoniaDarrenChris’ paid Internet Marketing forum Third Tribe {where Naomi had also been heavily promoted} :: Sonia finally had to take a stand … against the fake robot.

I understand your feelings, but all I can tell you is that I have seen many lies and distortions of truth about many different people on the SD site. And when reasonable people try to make a comment to correct the facts, they are flamed and insulted until they go away.

I can’t give you more specifics, partly because I don’t read the site any more. It damages my productivity, it makes me second-guess myself, and it undermines the work I do to help people. It is entirely toxic to me, and it would be even if they didn’t insult me and people I respect.

There is another site that has been set up to smear Dave — that site is also filled with things that are untrue, and things that are partly-true but highly distorted.

As you say, trust is what it’s all about. The Jason Jones site is not trustworthy.

I don’t need anyone to love Dave or Naomi or what they do, but we also need to realize that there are people out there who will tell outright lies, and short of expensive, time-consuming lawsuits, it’s essentially impossible to make them stop.

Additional Important Point:

The Third Tribe forums are a confidential spot where we can discuss business matters frankly. You may not post what anyone has posted in these forums outside the forums without that poster’s permission.

What we discuss in Third Tribe stays in Third Tribe unless you’ve discussed it with the individual. Otherwise, no one would feel safe to ask a question in the Q&A, no one would feel save opening a thread to figure out a business dilemma.

Oops!

The first rule of fight club :: is that the first rule of fight club is fucking impossible to follow … 2.0.

Sonia’s just trying to “help people” … and I’m stopping her with all my meany pants lies. If “helping people” means fraud :: and cartels :: and Naomis … then so be it. If it means promoting Frank Kern :: Jeff Walker :: and Mike Filsaime … then so be it. If it means whitewashing horrible blunders :: and forever repressing dissent … then so be it. Everything :: and whatever … “helping” in the name of the lord god of cash flow.

SickMachineSonia has got to get hers … fuck you and whatever children you might have if you get in her way. But here’s old school Sonia looking back at us from the past …

Is that really you Sonia? Holy shit … WTF?

I see something in your eyes just there Ms. Simone :: something not normal for Scamworld eyes … something like humanity almost. Maybe it’s something from before they chewed you up :: and crushed you :: and ruined you … something not hateful. Which is why I’ve decided not to call you petty names :: or say that you’re fat {you’re not} :: or do any of the other stupid shit I normally do to get the attention of the sociopaths next door. Cause I think you’re different Sonia Simone :: I think you already know how much reason you have to hang your head … so low … in shame.

>> bleep bloop

257 thoughts on “Sonia Simone’s Shame”

  1. I don’t know. Sonia was friends with Naomi but does that mean she’s a scammer? I’m not so sure. Are we going after everyone who is guilty by association now?

    1. @spidey, Really? It’s not just a personal friendship with Naomi that is damning for Sonia. It’s promoting Naomi’s fake “business expertise”. It’s promoting Frank Kern et al. It’s CopyBlogger and its floppertunities. It’s sneaky lying in the Third Tribe forums. If Sonia can find a shred of decency (she must have one somewhere) it’s probably not too late for her to leave this scammy life and get an honest job. She’d probably sleep better at night too.

    2. @spidey,

      I don´t think it´s guilty by association. I think it´s two factors:

      1) People continuing to endorse people after they have done bad (or allegedly bad) things.
      2) People keeping silent about things. I wrote recently about how the silence can be damaging.

      If it was guilty by association, I would have been raked over the coals multiple times already. I used to work for Dave and there is a lot of internet evidence that could be used against me.

      I think these posts are based on peoples actions after certain things were revealed, rather then what they did/thought beforehand.

      This is where, for many people, the moral dilemma lies. People have done stuff that is wrong or are supporting those that are wrong. Yet they are also smart people that we can learn from. I still recommend the occasional product from Dave Navarro despite not agreeing with actions. I also warn each people to be careful about recommending it to their audience due to the circumstances around it.

      For me, this is where I get confused (and subsequently decide to just get out of the IM industry.) I think that Sonia is smart and can teach us a lot of useful things. I dislike Naomi, I dislike the CB community as a result and I dislike how Sonia Simone supports Naomi. Facts. This is a perspective that a lot of my peers share. But, I think that some of her articles are incredibly relevant and that she isn´t a bad person. People just don´t know what to do/how to react here. I mean, I´m only speaking out because I think trends in the industry are bad, rather then speaking out against specific people.

      I also agree with Sonias sentiment that people were getting attacked in the comments. For a few days there, everyone was getting accused and it was pretty hairy. Also I know from experience that people were afraid to speak out against people because of this. There was a site claiming there was death threats contrasted to a site where it was a free-for-all when it came to insults. People were confused and it was easier to say nothing.

      I´m saying this as a (former) insider to share the common thinking. I think that it could be really helpful if the commenters here could give suggestions on what people can do in situations like these. The confusion and conflicted loyalties are very real when you are embedded in a community.

      1. @Jade ::

        I liked your post JC …

        http://jadecraven.com/2012/06/14/on-standing-up-for-what-is-right/

        I’d have to disagree that these are smart people that we can learn something from. Some of them are smart maybe. Dave is smart. Sonia is smart.

        But “being smart” is worth dick all to your customers :: or friends :: or family … all by itself. Life’s about what you do. People who make massive moral mistakes like this :: in the very areas where they claim expertise … aren’t ever worth listening to again in that area. Trust is good and everything :: but that’s too risky … negligently risky.

        Sonia’s not an expert on any of the things she talks about … or she wouldn’t have called Frank Kern an expert for a 50% commission. That’s a fact.

        Also keep in mind that :: unlike you and most of the other folks who wandered in here during the death threat shitstorms … Sonia was making a much more general reference to this site … where this discussion about blogging about blogging syndicates had been going on for more than a year before the Naomi stuff started. She’s not talking about those few days of craziness where things were :: admittedly confusing … to people new to the story.

        Of course :: it wouldn’t have been new to people if the copyblogging probloggers hadn’t pretended that this site didn’t exist … and censor all comments from its cheeky author.

        @spidey ::

        Are we going after everyone who is guilty by association now?

        Have “we” ever stopped doing that? It’s all about the associations … otherwise it’s nothing. Welcome to The Salty Droid.

        1. @SD,

          True. I was just giving the perspective of someone close to the situation as a lot of people talk to me about how they felt.

          I wouldn´t know what goes on in the third tribe as I ditched that before all this went down :)

          Totally agree about the what you do statement. That´s why I´m doing this. Not to attack specific people (although gosh knows, the motivation is there sometimes) but to… talk openly about what is wrong with stuff so, hopefully, it can be fixed.

          Normally I´d be involved in this discussion more but I´m on holiday. Ironically, my first holiday since Vegas and I haven´t felt this relaxed since then. It´s like for the first time, there is a world outside of this mess – one where none of it matters. It shows how much of my identity is tied up in that community – and I´m no longer a part of it. Imagine how those that are really into it feel. (the naive D-teamers)

          1. @Jade,

            Just read your post. As I (understandably) can’t reply there, I’ll do so here.

            It sounds like an awful time; the only good thing about it is you got out of that “community”. I can understand why Anthony Navarro’s site seemed aggressive, even though I’m sure it isn’t; we’ve moved so far toward secularism we seem to mistrust religion and religious terminology – something Naomi knew, and clearly exploited…she came within a whisker of fooling me with it.

            I’m glad you’re out of it…and being awesome. Hope you have a fantastic break.

          2. @Jade, I appreciate the candid post you shared and your remarks. If you need a laugh look up “the purpose driven cult” and substitute the crowd you describe for the religious stuff. I think there’s a fair amount of common ground!

        2. @SD,

          @Jade seems like a nice person.

          In her newer “drama Llamas” post, I find her waffle-ish arguments about how Simone, et. al. maybe aren’t so bad to be not persuasive.

          I think Jade has not ever fully woken up from the “make money online” spell. That makes me sad.

          However, I think Jade has a valid point about regarding nastiness. There is, on this blog, a measure of nastiness directed at anyone that the majority of the commentators deem to be a “scam” or a “fraud”. Of course the individual that has the most say in that area is you, Mr. Droid, because you write the articles.

          But as I try and come up with additional points to make Jade’s case about the nastiness of this site and how that is somehow bad, I find I cannot.

          Bottom Line is this: There is a lot of bad language and very mean things said on saltydroid.info . And maybe sometimes there’s a little too much. And maybe sometimes (in the comments) some random person tangentially involved in IM might get unfairly implicated. And maybe sometimes all of that hurts someone’s feelings. We should try to be careful, but…

          But that doesn’t matter so much. Free speech is free not pretty. The Sonia Simone’s of the world, conscience or no, are still out there and they’re still perpetuating the unsubstantiated claim that they can solve your problems once you give them your hard earned $$$.

          @EVERYBODY
          There must be a line in the sand. When we allow rampant frauding and scamming to go on in our midst and we don’t stand up to it, we become part of the problem.

          “[You] Can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you’re only kidding.” — They Might Be Giants

          If you live in Utah, get Shurtleff fired (and thrown in jail) and don’t allow Swallow to be elected.

          EverthingIsConnectedToEverthingElse.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

      2. @Jade,

        While I do take your point about how some commenters were treated, my memory is you were treated reasonably (although not uniformly) well? (Please feel to correct me if I’m wrong – it’s often different if you’re the one at the sharp end of the comments). I was also fairly conflicted at the time; I’d been drawn in via the “spider” posts and had been well and truly smitten with the whole Third Tribe approach (to the point of considering how I could find the cash to join).

        I’d suggest those entrenched in the community take a break – don’t post anything…anywhere. Find out more – read the dissenting voices, even if the tone’s upsetting. Leave it a while and come back to it, and see if your feelings have changed.

        It’s what I did. There may be better advice, but doing the above helped me see past the acerbic hyperbole and understand what this site is about. And it helped separate the person from the persona; the droid might be cutting, but Jason seems to be driven by a desire to protect the vulnerable. And I’ve seen him weigh in a number of times to protect commenters or occasionally the subjects of one of his blog posts (Linda springs to mind) from unfair comment, even alienating core members of his audience at times as a result.

        That’s quite some distance from being a “hate blog”…and it means his message needs to be re-evaluated accordingly.

        1. @Dr Geek,

          I was treated fine. Others – including people I know hated stuff that went down but were too scared to say anything – weren´t

          This has been called a hate blog by others and thats how new people view this. Its all about framing.

          Leaving for a bus now – can post more in about 12 hours :)

          1. @Jade ::

            Who wasn’t treated fine?

            @Ali?

            Because I protected her … and she made her bed. I noticed that she was at BlogWorld … and I wasn’t.

            Anyone who wants to participate in this discussion reasonably … will be treated reasonably.

            The whole “hate blog” thing is so 2010.

            1. @SD, Some people have a time machine, or are stuck back there waiting for the Doctor to come get them…

            2. @SD,

              *whispers* Tim Brownson did get what those of us who have lived in Glasgow could only term “a TOtal doin’ ” when he posted here. I understand you had your reasons, but I guess that’s to whom Ms Simone is referring…

            3. @Dr Geek,

              Regarding Tim Brownson: I always thought he got “a TOtal doin'” as well. And I’m not sure how I feel about it. I mean–yeah, maybe he deserved it or whatever, but did castigating him really help?

              Maybe it’s just that the guy kept not going away and, by his many words here and actions elsewhere, Tim made it so easy for @SD to rip him a new one.

              Note to anyone in the “coaching” “industry”: Find Real Work. And Soon.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

              1. @Wyrd ::

                I don’t get why that Brownson situation should be confusing to a regular reader :: and I certainly don’t want to talk about it again … but troll control doesn’t happen all by itself. Most of the people I caught during that ShitStorm got mercy … and Tim was the representative head on spike that made it into the parable.

                Did it help?

                Fuck yeah it helped … it did exactly what it was intended to do.

            4. @SD,

              I don’t think either Wyrd/L4MR or I would bat an eyelid at a similar situation now, but this was when we 1st discovered the blog, before we became regular readers…so perhaps we can see why “D-teamers” had such strong reactions to that incident.

              (I shall mention this no more)

        2. @Dr Geek, the whole Third Tribe thing was already starting to feel like a cult when I was loosely attached. Time away only reinforced that feeling.

          Every time I look at links in their posts and testimonials on their product pages I can’t help but think of how incestuous the whole thing is.

          I’m glad I never spent any money on it.

      3. @Jade,
        The suggestion is so simple a 5 year old child can grasp it. Do not associate with known and demonstrable liars and fraudsters who ruin people’s lives for their own benefit.

        Is that really so hard to understand you need to ask yourself what you need to do?
        Really?
        Really, really?

    3. @spidey, What @Jade said. PLUS…you have to remember that a lot of good people buy into the crap they read…from Naomi and Frank et. al. — and start seeing what they did to sell the crap. Then they assume that’s “business as normal.” That’s “how you do it.” That’s the “big difference between them and me.” So they mimic it…selling — you guessed it — the stuff created by the Naomi/Frank types.

      Thus, they become complicit because they are contributing to spreading the problem.

      Seriously, knowing how Frank and others like him work, making affiliates guilty by association (please…only after they’ve heard the truth and continue to promote the crap) is one way to cut off the hands and feet of the beast while you’re hammering on that god-awful ugly drooling greedy head.

      So…long answer short: yeah. It IS about “guilty by association,” depending on the association and the knowledge of the person doing the association-ing.

    4. @spidey, Guilt by association! Specially more so when the evidence mounts against spider twat and she still thinks it`s ok!

      I need more lemon pledge, miser superman.

    5. @spidey,

      It isn’t guilt by association when Simone endorses a scammer like Naomie. There’s a difference between being friends with someone and telling other people–people who trust you–yes, this associate of mine can be trusted as well.

  2. After the whole faecal arachnid maelstrom, Sonia Simone had a few comments about time wasting sites and “hating unicorns” on the Copyblogger podcast, which made me think a certain fake robot may have got under her skin a little.

    My introduction to “Scamworld” came via the Third Tribe types, I was caught by their “we’re not like everyone else” schtick…I think there are quite few in that world who perhaps aren’t evil at heart, but who have over time developed over-active “denial glands”.

    Bravo, M’sieur Le Droid for choosing an approach these people can’t shake off as “haters gonna hate”.

    (on a more superficial note, which program did you use for the photo editing? As a new Mac convert, I wants me some of that ;-)

    1. @Dr Geek ::

      Welcome to the cult!

      It’s Photoshop Elements 10 :: it’s in the App Store and it’s much more reasonably priced than the fuller versions of Photoshop … which I also have but don’t like anymore because I like Elements so much.

    2. @Dr Geek,

      If you’re in the market for a Wacom tablet or other imaging hardware, they often come bundled with older versions of Photoshop Elements. For the list price of PE 10, I got PE 6 and a Wacom Bamboo Fun tablet (with pen and mouse tools).

      I finally watched the video. Shame on me for not recognizing that frame around Naomi’s big dumb head! Now I’m wondering if other photos I thought just had a filter applied were really layered over Albright paintings. So many IMers would qualify for a “That Which I Should Have Done I Did Not Do (The Door).” Who is “Into the World There Came a Soul Called Ida” being saved for?

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/oxfordshire_church_photos/4763380489/
      If not Naomi, who?

  3. Like you, I do believe that Sonia has a soul. It’s there in her voice, in her eyes, and in her writing. And I think she’s been suckered into this crowd of users via an undersized sense of self (so unlike the sociopaths).

    The only thing is, once you’ve seen behind the smoke and mirrors, you’ve got a decision to make. And rationalizing away wrong doing in the name of loyalty doesn’t apply when innocent people are being bilked and suffer from the manipulations that you are helping to promote.

    Nothing is perfect. Nobody is without fault. And it takes a good friend to be loyal once they’ve seen those sides of a person. Fine. But when this personal loyalty thing is played out on the stage of people’s dreams and income then it becomes something else.

    Wake up, Sonia!

  4. Big Lulz. What untruths and lies?

    Bitches be claimin’ you a fake ass liar but they never talk about specifics…

    1. @Liar and Swindler ::

      Yep :: let’s hear those fucking specifics … because if I have made any errors in the reporting of the facts that underly my opinions … then I’ll fix it … immediately. The facts have to be right out of respect for the people who read this blog.

      I don’t need anyone to love Dave or Naomi or what they do, but we also need to realize that there are people out there who will tell outright lies, and short of expensive, time-consuming lawsuits, it’s essentially impossible to make them stop.

      Sonia needs to realize that while lawsuits may be expensive and time consuming :: they can only end in smallish monetary awards … there’s never going to be any “making it stop” … unless she’s planning to bring a shotgun.

      Did lawsuits stop Crystal Cox?

      And I’m :: maybe :: kinda :: just a bit more sophisticated than CoxPorn.

      Another thing that Sonia might want to realize :: is that if she’s going to publish statements about me being “a liar” … she should prolly have some specific examples in mind in case I’m the one who starts the expensive and time consuming lawsuit.

      1. @SD,

        Of course, it’s probably less expensive if you happen to have mad Law Skillz…know anyone like that, Mr Droid? ;-)

        (Thanks for the photo-editing advice too – I’ll check it out, thanks;-)


  5. I see something in your eyes just there Ms. Simone :: something not normal for Scamworld eyes … something like humanity almost. . . . Cause I think you’re different Sonia Simone :: I think you already know how much reason you have to hang your head … so low … in shame.

    Well… I hope your right. For my part, I’ve got Jayne Cobb in my head sarcastically saying, “Let’s not go excluding people. That’d be wrong.”

    I mean, I agree–she doesn’t look like a sociopath. But I’ve never been all that great about telling if someone’s “evil” or not by their facial expressions. The way I figure it, the worst of the bunch are the best at hiding their sinister-ness.

    When I hear her speak (in the video and in the audio clip) she even sounds like a less sassy/foul-mouthed version of Naomi.

    But you’ve investigated her for a long time and I haven’t, I’m just reading. So maybe you’re right.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd ::

      Well :: saying “I think you might me a human” isn’t exactly a compliment. In fact :: it’s the worstest and meanest thing I could possibly say.

      Me and NeighNeigh … we’re matter / anti-matter. I get her … she gets me. Listen to how Irwin says “droidian douche bags” …

      http://saltydroid.info/main-street-marketing-machines-fusion-shitstorm/

      … hating this place :: that speaks his language :: is out of his emotional league. I’m just a fucking bastard about this … that resonates with him.

      Same with the way Koenigs talks about me to the Tony Robbins minions …

      http://youtu.be/-9yu7HF8j4E

      … yeah I’m a “poisonous-specter” or whatever … but it’s all very matter-of-fact … “goody-goody with bee in bonnet” is just one of the costs of the game.

      The course of their lives was prolly pre-set … in the most known deterministic way known to the science of intelligent life. IMO … they literally can’t help being bastards. I think it’s okay to feel a little bad for them … it’s super unlucky to be born with such a strange disability … and they’re never happy … and they can’t love … and they’re restless … and perpetually bored … and narcissistic … and alone. Much less fucked to be born with no legs.

      But if you have a soul :: and you trade it in for fucking rot … that I don’t get. And your dead soul will never get it either … and you’ll start to look more and more like a Macbeth character … or The Picture of Dorian Gray.

  6. Copyblogger was my gateway into this sick bizarro world. At the time, I had just started using Elance to search for freelance writing jobs and found Copyblogger, Problogger, and Men with Pens through Google “how to make money writing online” type searches.

    Of course, I had no idea that these guys were all working together as a syndicate. I thought they were legit writers, not biz-op scammers.

    I remember perfectly Brian Clark’s introduction of Naomi and Sonia. He made some crack about how profane they were and I followed a link to one of their websites, I can’t remember which, and read a post about how scary it is to quit your 9-5 and go it alone.

    And I swallowed the whole routine, hook, line and sicker–the fun loving, rebellious, “fuck you” attitude, the casual profanity, the carefully crafted vulnerability, the idea that there were people out there bucking the usual way of doing things and having success, the feeling that something big–something accessible to all of us–was happening on the internet.

    It all seems so ridiculous in hindsight, but the lesson here is that this stuff is POWERFUL for people who are looking for answers. Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought that all of these seemingly loosely connected personalities and websites were organized and united in their effort to deceive me.

    Did I buy any of their products? No. Not online anyway. I’m far too tight with my money to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars of unproven systems. But I did buy one of Seth Godin’s books and three of Dan Kennedy’s at Barnes and Noble. I recognized immediately that Kennedy was a fucking scumbag. Godin, I thought was legit up until a few months ago.

    Today I’m happy to report that I do make money writing content for a newsletter at a rate of $100 for 500 words, far more than you could ever hope to make from a freelance slum like Elance. But here’s the deal–the guy I write for has a legitimate offline business. The only thing “internet” about our relationship is that I met him online and we mostly communicate over email. That’s it. No biz-ops, no blogging, no affiliates.

    Bottom line–you aren’t stupid if you got taken in. As the droid puts it, you were the victim of asymmetrical information. In other words, you didn’t know what you didn’t know. So don’t beat yourself up. Now you do know better thanks to Jason. And so do I. And for that, I’ll be forever grateful for his work.

    1. @Mad Max,

      “… the feeling that something big–something accessible to all of us–was happening on the internet.

      It all seems so ridiculous in hindsight, but the lesson here is that this stuff is POWERFUL for people who are looking for answers.”

      That feeling is NOT ridiculous. It’s powerful because it’s real. And that’s what makes the scam work. You feel something in your guts, something real, and you wisely trust it, but you don’t know where to go from there.

      Enter the scam.

      But what happened a few months ago that made you start to doubt Seth Godin?

      1. @Peter Crowell,

        What made me question Godin? His interviews with Brian Clark, quoting one of Dan Kennedy’s books, etc…

        If you’re running with these guys or lending them credibility, you’re part of the problem.

          1. @Peter Crowell,
            Dan Kennedy has to be one of the most overrated “gurus” I’ve ever known. (No one even close).

            Listen to this intrepid interview with Yanik Silver:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPEkcWmAE2I

            Honestly, after listening to this 10-minute interview, did you learn anything worthwhile?

            1. @Dan Kennedy Overrated,

              Thanks for the video. Well, I learned that people are starting businesses at an age when they previously would have retired. That’s interesting if true.

              But I’m not convinced by @Mad Max’s contention about Seth Godin, or his logic about guilt by association. That standard would incriminate people like Hugh MacLeod. MacLeod is just an incredibly insightful cartoonist with a distinctive style. While Godin, as far as I can tell, is just a guy who has walked his talk, and now he’s preaching possibility. I’ve learned a lot from him about the publishing industry and I’ve watched a lot of what he’s predicted come true.

              I’m a self-published writer and I believe strongly in the power of the internet to help spread ideas, and the power of digital technology to enable creative projects previously unapproachable.

              The IM scam is repugnant. Marketers teaching marketers how to market marketing to marketers. I’ve never understood how it persists.

              But I don’t like to see the lines blurred between IM scams and people really trying to do good work.

        1. @Mad Max, I don’t know about why all the hatered for mr. Kennedy when he let many people get to understand about the money-genius workings of T.J. Rholeder in the Bonus Gift #5 of this one

          “Bonus Gift #5 (included with “Deluxe” Seminar Box only): Dan recently spoke at T.J. and Eileen Rohleder’s 10th Anniversary Marketing & Moneymaking Convention. This event was restricted to 100 of their best clients, each paying $5,000.00 to be there.”

          It’s like mr. Kennedy is just giving away $5,000-money-bills for free so how can somebody be mad at him about it?

          Actually, it’s me that’s mad at him, because it’s like he’s trying to tell people that they can try to negotiate the price of success when what they have to do for real is:

          “Find the price. Decide to pay the price. Then pay the price.” (As long as the price is much more than $50 – because $50 stuff is worthless all the time I’m pretty sure now).

            1. @Dr Geek, I think maybe that one’s OK, because so far I only know about $18 and $50 being harmful to success from when my new mentor sent me the email telling me this one:

              “P.S.: If I only took what’s cheap or free —- for example if I only bought $18 bookstore books and if I only helped myself to the vast quantities of free advice online – even if I got the best of the best, I would still miss out on 95% of the NETWORKING opportunities that you get from live events. Because learning happens in communities and conversations, not just at home and online.

              There is NO substitute for human contact. Oh, and the people you meet at a fifty dollar seminar are not gonna get you where you want to go.

              Find the price. Decide to pay the price. Then pay the price.”

            1. @Wyrd, I think the parsing-problems happen sometimes if you read using SBAR instead of SBARQ. I think the example probably can help with understanding some of the comment I made:

              “(ROOT
              (SBARQ
              (WHADVP (WRB how))
              (SQ (MD can)
              (NP (NN somebody))
              (VP (VB be)
              (ADJP (JJ mad)
              (PP (IN at)
              (NP (PRP him))))
              (PP (IN about)
              (NP (PRP it)))))
              (. ?)))”

            2. @Jack,

              Ok, granted I did take a class in compiler construction as part of my Bachelor’s degree, but that doesn’t mean I did very well at it, much less remember any of it.

              We focused on context free grammers — LR, LALR. We used flex and yacc to help with converting from the grammar to C code.

              We didn’t get as far as building a symbol table though much less actual code generation.

              But the next time I try to parse one of your comments, I will try it with SBARQ (once I figure out how), and I’ll let you know how it goes.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

        2. @Mad Max,

          I think he was quoting a different Dan Kennedy. I was shocked to see him quote Dan Kennedy but when I looked into it, it’s another guy by the name of Dan Kennedy in the music industry.

          1. @Mike JK,

            While it doesn’t rule out his having quoted GKIC Dan Kennedy somewhere else, you are right about Seth Godin quoting McSweeney’s/The Moth Dan Kennedy’s book “Rock On: An Office Power Ballad” in a post called How many record execs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

            Poor McSweeney’s/The Moth Dan Kennedy is so haunted by GKIC Dan Kennedy that he spends only 2.5 lines of his Amazon author bio to talk about himself and uses 7.5 lines to say he’s not GKIC Dan Kennedy and isn’t legally responsible for any of GKIC Dan Kennedy’s books!

            But Seth Godin did allow himself to be interviewed by Brian Clark, so he’s dead to me.

    2. @Mad Max, I see that Naomi Dunford has not tweeted last year. Dave Navarro complained that the Droid’s attention killed his IM business. Are they selling less frauduct? Who knows. Spotlighting Sonia Simone and any other members of the ‘A’ team all helps people in bad situations from being sucked into something worse. Hopefully more and more of the ‘A’ team will actually will actually see the light, or even be put in a situation where no one believes their lies any more – either is good. Revealing the true nature of the ‘authority’ sites such as CopyBlogger has rightly been the priority. I agree with @Mad Max that it is almost impossible for even a relatively sceptical but uniformed individual to know how it really works.

      There is a deadpan and effective coverage of the IM world by a BBC correspondent Joylyon Jenkins…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b018xy2b/The_Internet_Millionaires_Club/

      The droid, and others, such as Jolyon Jenkins, have a huge task – uncovering the IM world stone by stone is probably the best and only way to win.

    3. @Mad Max,

      As someone that was part of it – they weren´t syndicated as such. They´d just talk amongst similar people in their tier to make sure their launch schedules and content didn´t collide. They cross promoted the heck out of each other but that is because the conversions are so darn good. People were already familiar and just needed a reason.

      I reckon the problem with a lot of the affiliate stuff is a term called Storyselling. People use a compelling story to sell the product, leaving out all of the other stuff that went into their success. They don´t talk realistically about the product. I should know – I used to check out every product on the marketplace as part of my work and the affiliate stuff is kinda bonkers.

      1. @Jade,

        The problem is the fake social proof. When you keep hearing the same names over and over, you begin to attach credibility to them. Afterall, why would you keep hearing about these people if they weren’t experts in their respective fields.

        For example, I’d never heard of Dan Kennedy until I went job hunting on Elance and stumbled across post after post from IMers seeking a “Dan Kennedy style copywriter.”

        As much as this guy’s name comes up, you’d think Dan Kennedy was a world class copywriter. But is he? Not by any objective standard. What blockbuster sales letters has this guy written. Nothing outside his own frauduct universe.

        Now check out this experiment I did just 2 seconds ago: I punched top copywriters into Google and it vomited forth this link on the first page of results.

        http://marketcopywriterblog.com/2010/10/26/ultimate-copywriters-roll-call-100-top-international-copywriters-and-content-bloggers/

        Check out who’s in the top 5. That’s right, Brian Clark and Chris Brogan.

        100 Top International Copywriters and Content Bloggers

        Psychotactics
        About: Marketing Psychology Ideas from New Zealand marketing strategist and cartoonist Sean D’Souza
        Great post: How To Make Your Client Remember Your Website …Forever!
        Twitter: @seandsouza

        Chris Brogan
        About: Learn how human business works with Chris Brogan, business consultant, speaker and best-selling author of Trust Agents
        Great post: 40 Ways to Deliver Killer Blog Content
        Twitter: @ChrisBrogan

        Copyblogger
        About: Tips for copywriters, bloggers, and content marketers from Brian Clark, Sonia Simone and a host of guest bloggers
        Great post: Too many to choose, but check out How to Write Magnetic Headlines, and Sean Platt’s guest post, The Eminem Guide to Becoming a Marketing Machine
        Twitter: @Copyblogger

        Bob Bly’s Blog
        About: The of Blog Robert Bly, veteran copywriter and author of The Copywriters’ Handbook
        Great post: The 3-Part Winning Formula for a USP
        Twitter: @RobertBly

        ABC Copywriting Blog
        About: Blog of Tom Albrighton, UK copywriter and principal at ABC Copywriting
        Great Post: Freelancers: It’s Not About You
        Twitter: @ABC_Copywriting

        Are either of these guys world class copywriters? Of course not. They’re nobodies outside the IM scam world. They couldn’t sell a legitimate product if their lives depended on it.

        But Google tells you otherwise.

        And that’s how insidious this stuff is. It perverts even a simple request for information.

        1. @Mad Max,

          For what it’s worth, Dan Kennedy has done absolutely giant campaigns for Weight Watchers and other infomercials. Still a scammy shithead, but good at writing infomercials.

          1. @Sundog,

            I stand corrected on Kennedy. Still, he’s only worked with a handful of non-IM entities, but in the funhouse world of the internet, he’s oen of the world’s best copywriters.

            1. @Mad Max, Yeah, he gave birth to a whole bunch of the folks featured on this blog, both in the Syndicate and Copyblogger world. So they crow about him.

        2. @Mad Max, spot on! And why does Google tell you otherwise. Because Google LOVES this stuff. It makes them bazillions. For every $ made by an IM pyramid marketer, Google (and others including Facebook and not so awesome affliate marketing companies) make five times that amount. It is the great scam industry – and the ”we are so ‘do good” companies who should be quashing it are in fact the merry old leaders, the top of the A team.

        3. @Jade,

          The problem is the ones that teach only MMO. In my opinion, that is the Illegal part.

          It gets deeper too, psychology wise as well. For instance, my old JV manager used to tell me that “the ones that do good in society and help people, philanthropy, etc” sacrifice their ethics to get there and there is no other way. They are either without grey matter like SD says or they had bad upbringing and schooling.

          Since I was the guy creating products, and he was the one getting the JV’s he was always upset at me that I wanted to stay compliant and ethical, make sure the customer comes first.

          He wouldn’t shut up so I put him out of business.

          Imagine if every movie Hollywood put out cost $400 and was the same movie, telling you how to watch more movies.

          Their “release schedules” coincide with each other so that “everyone gets their turn.”

          The problem would lie in the fact that the movie is $400 (It should be $20 per ticket because that is the market) and then that the content has no value since it simply “cheats” and promotes more movies being bought.

          The customers may thank the movie creators since they will be able to watch more movies, but the whole thing is bullshit at the end of the day.

          Now if the movie was $20 and the movie is good, then thats another story.

          Wyrd, the gas station thing is not accurate man. Your not pin pointing the problem which is they are fulfilling high ticket orders by showing the student how to do the same thing they are doing.

          1. @johnny james,

            Imagine if every movie Hollywood put out cost $400 and was the same movie, telling you how to watch more movies.

            Make money stuffing envelopes! Thousands sit in their pajamas earning money for their kids’ college tuition or for a dream vacation. For $5 and a SASE, you can learn the secret too!

            This headline/ad is from forty years ago. From it, you can learn 80% of what Dan Kennedy teaches.

            If you don’t know the secret to making money stuffing envelopes, ping me at:

            theres1borneveryminute

        4. @Mad Max,

          I know. In this respect, it´s bullshit and it´s why I can´t stand it. The fake social proof scares me. If not for that, though, is it still bad?

      2. @Jade…

        You seem like a nice and good person.

        They´d just talk amongst similar people in their tier to make sure their launch schedules and content didn´t collide.

        Why did they do that? Why did they check with each other to make sure their launch schedules didn’t collide? They wanted to make sure that they didn’t release an “info product” at the same time as someone else in their tier. Why?

        What does competition mean? It means that you do things to undercut the other people that are selling the same kind of thing that you are. If you are doing things like making sure your launch schedules don’t collide then you aren’t really competing with the others are you? And if you promote the heck out of each others “products,” then once again, you’re not really competing with them to get the most sales are you?

        But, @Jade, it is criminally illegal to act as part of an inner circle like that covertly whilest publicly representing yourself as an individual.

        There are words that describe that activity. They are “cartel” or “syndicate”.

        Imagine if all the gas stations (or is it petrol stations?) in your area all secretly agreed to charge a certain price, then also each gas station advertized the awesome benefits of every other gas station, but yet publicly they all maintained the appearance of acting as separate entities.

        In that case, those gas stations could charge a price “as high as the market will bear” for gas.

        Competition is a foundational, bedrock-y thing-y without which the free market can’t function.

        @SD: Maybe a side article on economic theory would be useful?


        Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Wyrd,

          I see your opinion but I also think that it´s just like girls arranging their weddings so there aren´t any conflicts.

          I know that people would hold off on promoting stuff so as not to ´burn´ their audience. I also know several people who wouldn´t promote stuff that it was shit.

          Does this still make it a syndicate? From my perspective, the people were aware that a large percentage of their sales came from a similar audience. And that if there are too many choices, people will just avoid making a decision. The Paradox of Choice was often mentioned in relation to this.

          I think it´s lazy marketing. Sometimes it was because the product was shit and wouldn´t be useful to anyone outside of the tribe. With Dave though, it was because there was so much effort going into understanding new communities and reaching out to people in them. It was easier to cater to the CB peeps.

          I see that it´s incestuous and dodgy – especially when the broke people at the lower rungs all try to sell to each other. But I don´t think the conversations organizing schedules were intended to screw over people.

          I appreciate you being straight and fair with me, too. I know that thsi type of convo will change how some people approach selling.

          1. @Jade,

            Girls arrange their weddings so their guests are not discomfited by a clash which makes them choose.

            “Marketers” arrange their launches to maximise both direct and affiliate income. Which comes from those they purport to serve. Without making it clear such an arrangement exists.

            See the difference? Weddings are arranged to help guests. Launches are arranged to maximise profits…or, to put it in other terms, take as much money as possible from your “community”‘s wallet.

            This is the trouble with this community. The behaviour is so ingrained (and universal) the good people involved have difficulty grasping just how wrong it is.

            I blame the “teachers”

          2. @Jade, “I know that people would hold off on promoting stuff so as not to ´burn´ their audience.”

            Let’s revise that for accuracy:

            “I know that people would coordinate covertly with their competitors to promote stuff so as to MILK their unsuspecting audience to the MAX.”

            The fact is, Jade, they have no problem ‘burning’ their audience at all, ONCE they’ve gotten every dime they can squeeze out of them. Illegal, conspiratorial cartels like these (and they are illegal) are all about chewing people up and spitting out as little of their remains as they can. It’s a manipulative, constant churn.

            You have some seriously misplaced feelings of reverence due to the incorrect perception that some of these scumbuckets actually helped you. They didn’t help you at all. They took advantage of your vulnerability, and fooled you into helping them front their people-grinding machine. They used *you* to use *others.* You should not feel reverence or any sense of obligation for that, you should feel angry.

            And, don’t for a moment think the (for now) “absence of prosecution” equates to a ‘clean bill of health’ for these people. It is simply justice delayed, and sometime after these scumbags have hit rock bottom on their own, that justice is going to show up unannounced, and take them down to a whole new level of rock bottom that they really and truly deserve.

            Wake up, Jade. Two words: CLEAN BREAK.

  7. I think you hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph, Salty. I suspect this is a big part of why Copyblogger is moving more towards products like software and hosting.

    In all the time I was in the MMO space, Sonia’s one of only two people who told me not to buy something and to save my money.

    This reminds me, though, of something you said a very, very long time ago about corporate employees getting pushed to a point where they cease to give a shit about where the money comes from as long as they get out of their job. I wonder if they look back and regret some of the choices and “friends” they made.

    1. @Sundog, your reference to Copyblogger moving more towards software & hosting products reminds me of the Godfather saga theme of trying to go “legit.” :)

    2. @Sundog, While they can try to park their ill-gotten gains elsewhere, those still remain ill-gotten gains. And, they will still be living with their own ingrained nature. Does a leopard change its spots? Wherever they go, their game will go, too.

  8. Oh, and “Marketing for Nice People” is brilliant in a George Soros crashing an entire monetary system in order to profit from it sort of way.

    I know for me it had huge appeal. Sales never seemed like a good fit for me because I’m not a smooth talker and I don’t have a killer instinct. But marketing by just being yourself? All upfront and honest-like? Woweee! Count me in.

    It would be a mistake to assert that these people don’t have talent. They do. It’s just that their talent is making you believe they’re something that they’re not.

    1. @Mad Max, Yes. Chameleons are talented. Instinctively. Good thing they aren’t life-threatening. These bozos are masterfully talented chameleons who are life-threatening.

  9. Speaking of Dave and Naomi abandoning their families for blogging…they don’t blog anymore.

    What are they doing? Are they still sending out emails or should we assume they’ve reinvented themselves under other identities?

    1. @Sundog,

      They didn’t abandon their families for blogging. They abandoned them to sell and go into business together. Blogging didn’t really have anything to do with it.

      1. @spidey, I *yes* signed up for Naomi’s email list a long time ago and didn’t unsubscribe until recently, thanks to Salty. I’m glad to say I never produced or sold an “informational product” or course, but I did look into it. Never could commit because it felt funny, but I couldn’t say why until I learned more.

        Anyhow, as little as I paid attention to her non-stop, rambling, wine-soaked babble, I did pick up that she’s a bona fide email newsletter girl now and that they’re hitting it hard to make more money on courses and magic consulting. They sound desperate.

        I guess it’s because there’s no obvious dissent online when you’re emailing people directly. ;)

        1. @Not A Kool-Aid Kid,

          Ah, we have quite a bit in common. And yeah, I figured that might be the plan.

    2. @Sundog,

      I wrote a while ago about how they burned the first few tiers and predicted that they would have to start again. I wrote it before all this mess went down. Someone should have really kept me on his team because I was right in how everything played out. :)

      So – they ´closed their program to affiliates´. No-one big will promote them now and people would comment on any blog post or twitter comment they made. That is the real reason they don´t do it rather then the reasons they have said.

      They rely on pure email, mostly worded by Dave. I unsubscribed to all newsletters because they were painful to read but I´ve read some posted here. With emails there is no place for people to voice their dissent. It´s mostly newbies.

      I know because I recommended someone check out How to Launch book. She loved it, signed up to their list and wanted to hire him. This is after warning her. The current sentiment is that they don´t have time for this BS of he said/she said. They just want to work with someone that can help their business.

      I believe that this drama has hit them hard and that in many facets they´ll have to start over. I also think that Naomi has phrased everything in such a way (such as alluding to write copy for the ´hate blogs´ that people outside of Copyblogger land will dismiss this site and they´ll form, and grow, a new community.

      1. @Jade,

        Thanks for filling us in Jade. I too got off the email lists, and then wondered if they’d just gone to ground.

      1. @SD,

        This bit of repugnant gloating on the IttyBiz site appears to be recent:

        http://ittybiz.com/3-for-1-part-1/

        ‘Good morning, my lovely!

        Shall we start with a quick and unrelated peek at my inbox?

        OF COURSE WE SHALL!

        One time years ago, in my salutation, I started an email with

        “Sweetness!”

        I got a furious email from a woman who said that if a married man received that kind of a salutation, his wife would think we were having an affair.

        “My lovely, ok. I can see that. Honey is fine I guess. But ‘sweetness’? That’s just vulgar.”

        (That’s a direct quote, by the way. I’ve kept the email. How could you not?)

        So, to save you the expense of divorce court – and myself the inconvenience of an Alienation of Affection lawsuit – I’ll start with the decidedly un-vulgar “my lovely” and we can all stay married.

        (Aside: What kind of a woman emails her married lover to sell him marketing consulting? “Sweetness! Thanks for last night! Now, you don’t by any chance need any help with your branding, do you? There are only 6 slots left!”)’

      2. @SD,

        Well, ok. The main sadness, IMO, is not any single recent newsletter, but just the frequency of the recent posts and their subject lines. Naomi and Dave are trying to do an “Emergency Turnaround Clinic”. And that’s just so typical for this sort of thing. If the theory that they are struggling badly is correct–then isn’t that just the perfect time to offer advice to others on how best to turn their business around?
        Below is included the May 21 newsletter, but better is just the subject lines and sent dates:

        From: Naomi Dunford naomi@ittybiz.com via aweber.com
        To: me
        Subject: Is THIS the plan? Seriously? (now with more fairies!)
        Sent: May 21

        If an asteroid is flying through space, it won’t ever stop.

        It just keeps flying and flying until something stops it.

        If it’s hurtling, it’ll hurtle.

        If it’s trucking, it’ll truck.

        If it’s drifting, it’ll drift.

        Forever and ever and ever, until something happens to change it.

        We in the industry refer to the agent of change as “the
        Interplanetary Space Fairy”.

        The Interplanetary Space Fairy comes in the night and does
        something magical to the asteroid and makes it move, or change
        direction, or stop.

        (Yes, there is totally nighttime in space.)

        =-=-=-=

        I’ve been noticing a trend among ittybiz owners.

        OK, yes, I’ve been noticing it primarily in myself.

        But that’s only because I’m around me 24 hours a day.

        You do it, too, I promise.

        Let’s say there’s something you should be doing.

        Actually, no.

        Let’s say there’s something you WANT to be doing.

        Hmm. That’s not quite right either.

        It would be more accurate to say that you want the results of
        having done it.

        Maybe it’s optimizing for search engines.

        Maybe it’s following up with old customers.

        Maybe it’s getting off your ass and making some damn money already.

        You find the task overwhelming, and when you consider beginning
        work on it, you say:

        “I’ll get to it later.”

        (This is usually preceded by a guttural sound that, if spelled,
        would look something like “ARGUKH”.)

        Now, I’m not coming out against putting things off. I’m actually a
        huge fan of the practice.

        (Some of my best friends put things off!)

        I’ve found since childhood that in many cases, if you put something
        off for long enough, someone else will do it for you.

        Anecdotal evidence supports this.

        When I sit in the corner and whine for iced tea for long enough,
        yes, eventually Jamie or Dave or one of the ninjas will get one for
        me.

        The problem arises when I try to apply the same logic
        indiscriminately.

        If I sit in the corner and whine for a Facebook ad campaign, I
        don’t generally get the same result.

        The problem with overwhelm

        It seems that we, as ittybiz owners, have collectively agreed to
        agree that the feeling of overwhelm is normal.

        And we’re right.

        We’ve agreed that it’s natural.

        And we’re right.

        We’ve agreed that the only reasonable solution to overwhelm is to
        ignore what we should be doing and find something funner to do
        instead.

        Not so fast there, tiger.

        Because here’s the thing.

        If it’s too hot to clean your oven, but the temperature will drop
        20 degrees tomorrow, sure. Grab a beer and take a load off.

        But if you live in Hawaii, it’s not going to get any easier
        tomorrow.

        Or next month.

        Or in 2015.

        Nothing is ever going to change.

        Same with ittybiz overwhelm.

        And if you find it overwhelming today, you’ll find it overwhelming
        tomorrow.

        When we start playing the “But it’s so overwhelming!” card, we
        don’t stop to ask ourselves:

        Do we have ANY evidence to support that it will be ANY less
        overwhelming at ANY time in the future?

        We do not.

        “I will wait until it’s less overwhelming,” sounds perfectly
        reasonable.

        The perfectly synonymous “I will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this
        until the overwhelm fairy comes in the night” somehow does not.

        But isn’t that what we say? If we’re honest?

        May I offer some suggestions?

        If this is you, I offer two possible courses of action.

        (If your overwhelm stems from lack of a solid plan, we have a class
        for that in a few weeks, so sitting around and waiting for THAT is
        a valid exemption. It’s called Your Next 6 Months – watch for it.)

        1. Every time you suffer from overwhelm-related procrastination,
        say these words out loud in front of a mirror:

        “I will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this until the overwhelm fairy
        comes in the night.”

        Stand there and look at yourself until somebody blinks.

        This is not to shame you or guilt you into action. This is to
        assist you in reclaiming your status as an adult and taking full
        responsibility for your plans and actions.

        If your plan is to do nothing, look yourself in the eye and say so.

        2. If that doesn’t work, make a list of five to 10 things you’ve
        been putting off due to overwhelm.

        Find a supportive person, online or in real life. (If they’re
        online, schedule a quick Skype chat with them, ideally video so you
        can see each other’s faces.)

        Read them your list, one item at a time.

        After each item, pause for them to respond.

        They should respond, “What is your plan for dealing with that?”

        You should say:

        “I will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it until the overwhelm fairy
        comes in the night.”

        Repeat with each item.

        If your plan is to do nothing, look someone else in the eye and say
        so.

        On plans and acting like a grown-up

        If you have a plan, own it.

        Preach it.

        Shout it from the rooftops.

        If you wouldn’t be comfortable shouting your plan from the
        rooftops, perhaps it’s time for a new plan.

        =-=-=-=

        Totally Unrelated Side Note!

        =-=-=-=

        In the last week we have received several questions about the
        Emergency Turnaround Clinic, our sliding scale tuition (or Pay What
        You Can) course. I shall answer them here:

        Q! When does ETC open again?

        A! It’s always open. It’s home study. If you’re broke and need
        help, you can start at any time. Go here to start today:

        http://ittybiz.com/emergency-turnaround-clinic/

        Q! Dude, I feel so guilty because I don’t have much money to pay.
        What do people normally pay? Am I a bad person?

        A! Dude, that’s why it’s Pay What You Can. Situations like yours
        are what Emergency Turnaround Clinic is there for.

        People usually pay between $20 and $100, but we’ve had a lot lower
        and a lot higher.

        And you’re not a bad person. If you were a bad person, you wouldn’t
        be asking the question. Bad people pay have their assistant pay a
        dollar from their beach home in Maui and cackle all the way to the
        bank.

        You’re probably afraid to even go into your bank. You’re totally
        fine.

        Q! I’m broke now but I won’t be later. Can I pay more then?
        (Alternatively, I took the course and now I have a little more
        money. Can I pay more now?)

        If you like, absolutely. There’s a top-up page for people who have
        taken ETC and have a little more to spare now. It’s sliding scale,
        too – if you want to throw in another $5 or $20 or $31.62, you can
        do so at any time.

        http://ittybiz.com/etc-top-up/

        On that note, happy Monday. For my fellow Canadians, please go
        forth and celebrate Victoria Day with the customary consumption of
        a 2-4 of Labatt Blue.

        xx
        ND

        IttyBiz | 4441 Six Forks Road, Ste. 106-343 | Raleigh, NC 27609 | USA

        To unsubscribe or change subscriber options visit:
        [ another aweber link ]

        I’m going to try pasting in a screenshot of my email. But I’m not sure if it’ll work.
        http://www.flickr.com/photos/7412504@N02/7415780640/sizes/l/in/photostream/

        1. [continued]
          huh. Ok, so it went in, but small, but you can click for the full size where you can actually read it.

          Anyway, if you squint a bunch, or if it you click through, you see the subject lines and send dates go like this (except in reverse order):

          Subject: Is THIS the plan? Seriously? (now with more fairies!) on May 21

          Subject: Ends tonight – Half off Online Business School Coaches’ Edition on May 26

          Subject: This newsletter has actual news in it. You should read it. on May 27

          Subject: Registration is open NOW – Your Next 6 Months on May 29

          Subject: A few seats left – would you like one? on May 31

          So two days after the opening of registration they still have “seats left”. It isn’t exactly going like gangbusters.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @SD,

            I have not been subscribed long. I signed up maybe the middle of last month?

            I was wondering “whatever happened to Naomi?” I looked on Twitter first and I didn’t see anything. But with IM, there’s always the free newsletter, sales-funnel, upsell thing. So I signed up. I felt a little dirty for a bit, but then I got over it. I guess Naomi would be proud.

            The most recent email I received is dated June 8, btw. I missed that one before. It looks to be a general newsletter. It’s subject line is “Advice! Choose a default”.

            Furry cows moo and decompress.

            1. @Wyrd, The free newsletter->sales funnel->upsell thing isn’t exactly unique to IM. Gamefly, GOG and Valve send me weekly emails about new titles and old titles going on sale, my computer vendor sends me a weekly email newsletter about their shiny new ‘puters and this weeks specials, Amazon emails me about books they think look like the ones I’ve bought previously. The Verge emails me about new articles after I opted in to their alerts.

              I don’t think you can use the existence of an opt-in form and a newsletter as a signpost for being scammy.

            2. @Melkor,

              Yes, almost all businesses have the free newsletter. It’s not specifically scammy in and of itself. My bad for confusing the issue.

              The cookie-cutter standard IM-MMO page is really what I was thinking of. The give-us-ur-email-addy box is always right there on the first page. Usually on the right hand side*. It’s almost as big a potential scammer warning indication as the $47/$97/$1997 style price tag.

              * [ ittybiz doesn’t have the email sign-up box on the front page. But they do have a picture-link that is in the special top-right hand area of the page for signing up for the newsletter. And, they say, “(we have cookies)” It takes you to a page with a brief sales letter to convince you to give them your email. ]

              Also, on non-scam sites, the asking to sign up for the newsletter is usually done as part of the close of a sale rather than right up front.

              And, please, before you reply to tell me that this is not always the case–that there are non-scam sites (maybe even many) that ask for your email right up front: I know already. I know.

              I am not making the assertion that every website in existence that asks you for your email address right on the first page is a scam.

              I am only making the much easier to defend claim that many or even possibly most of the sites that do that are of the IM-MMO scammer ilk.

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            3. @Wyrd, That’s just a function of heat-map tracking, Google has the same placement of their signup boxes on Gmail and blogger. So deos http://www.gamestop.com/ – iEntry pitches the newsletter signup, sales happen softly on the back end.

              You’re trying to pick out design elements common to all effective marketing as some sort of signal which is extremely futile, the scam isn’t in the design but in the content. Mark Shurtleff looks like a human being, even if what’s on the inside isn’t human.

              Danny Sullivan is considering calling himself a digital marketer to separate himself from scammy IM’er but that would be a dumb fucking move since Ryan Deiss owns that domain name and has been calling himself a digital marketer for years.

              It’s why the scams are effective, because there isn’t a reliable mechanical signal that says “scam”. At least, not before the Droid’s finished stamping warning signs all over them.

            4. @Wyrd,

              ‘k..

              Let me try again.

              1. For the moment, for the sake of simplicity, please ignore any past assertions I have made in this thread.

              2. Let’s try this. How about: When I land on a web page that is a blog that
              * is written by someone I’ve never heard of and
              * is specifically on the subject of Internet Marketing or Make Mone Online
              * has very little content, and what little there is largely consists of links to some B- or A- teamers I have heard of and
              * the overall page design looks like it was “new” circa 1997 or else it has all the glitz turned up to 11 and
              * there’s the standard prominently displayed, very tacky looking email sign up box on the right hand side of the page (but not necessarily the top),
              THEN
              in that case, I can be reasonably certain that I have found the page of someone in the C-Z tiers who has been the recipient of some of that awesome IM-MMO “coaching”.

              Here are some examples:
              * http://www.icantinternet.org/2010/10/sterling-jay-from-internet-business-mastery-friends-or-frauds/
              * http://www.masonworld.com/

              * http://www.blogmarketingacademy.com/starting-an-online-business-despite-information-overload/

              That was what I meant.

              Now, does this mean that I can use this to magically detect all scams? Of course not! For one thing, there are many scams that aren’t part of IM-MMO. Also, it’s possible that a really effective IM-MMOer will break the trend of cookie cutter page design and be not obvious.

              I tried to make an off-hand observation. You have chosen to grill me for it like as if I gave false evidence at a murder trial. I think you like to argue even more than I do.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            5. @Wyrd, Insomnia makes me weird and nitpicky, true.

              And your heuristic fails on two of the three sites – I’ve never heard of Mason before either but someone willing to tell you about how he’s currently failing is at least being reasonably transparent about why giving him money is a bad idea,the other is the publisher of http://www.pcmech.com/ which is a legit tech-for-noobs site.

              They probably have read material from the Syndicate, you can hardly move online without being exposed to one arm of the 3T/blogworld/Syndicate octopus if you’re even vaguely interested in the subject. ‘Course, the blog academy thingy is based on the notion that you can teach someone else how to take advantage of market conditions that existed when you started your own site but does not in fact exist anymore which is a fair bit over a few lines, roughly the same ones Trump crossed with his “how to get rich by inheriting your dad’s fortune and connections” book.

    3. @Sundog, If I had to guess what they are doing to buy their pork and beans, I’d guess they are working temp jobs and scrambling, while putting on an online facade that hides that reality. Kind of like the legions of posers who claim to be “world class copywriters” when they get home at night and hop on their computers, after working a fast food drive through window or similar during the day.

  10. For those giving Sonia the benefit of the doubt… don’t.

    I ultimately figured out she was a piece of crap when she told me she was running a guest post I supplied. Of course, it never ran. And when I followed up, she ignored my emails.

    Total douchebag move.

    And I’m glad to see her featured on this site.

    But in retrospect, it was a blessing as now I know the other side to CopyBlogger – and I’m glad my writing was attached to that online sewer.

    1. @Sonia sucks out loud ::

      Here’s a pro tip :: don’t do :: or accept … guest posts without a compelling reason. People wanna talk about what you got to say … make um link to the site you’re building.

  11. Hey whats up! My first post. (I am an avid SD reader)

    I’ve got a question for SD or any other guru expert who would like to oblige.

    Basically, here it is..

    I can understand how the following people are BAD.

    1. James Arthur Ray
    2. Raygoza
    3. Kimoto
    4. Johnson
    5. Aaron Christner

    Raygoza:

    A. Extremely aggressive boiler room sales
    B. Empties the lifesavings of elderly
    C. No content or real life products for people

    Kimoto:

    A. Would target people who were denied for a credit card
    B. Would call them breaking the do not call laws
    C. Would aggressively sell them a “credit card” for $200.00
    D. They would receive a DEBIT card in the mail.

    Now for these “gurus”

    1. Anik Singal
    2. Naomi Dunford
    3. Sonia Simone

    What would their “ABC” look like?

    Forgive my lack of understanding. Im sure the abc will be fruitful
    if you guys would like to humor this.

    1. @Johnny James,

      I recommend searching for those names on this site. You’ll have your answer soon enough.

      1. @Mad Max,

        Believe it or not, I spend alot of time here and have read everything on them. It’s still unclear to me what they have done, and I can’t find anything on them elsewhere on the net either.

        The reason I am interested in Naomi Dunford is that she is a woman and is featured a few times. More than once so I figure she must be big time.

        Anik Singal, That is interesting. Anything other than the fact he sent out that testimonial contest?

        Im actually working on an expose of my own and wondering if there is something Im missing.

        Thanks man.

        1. @Johnny James,

          If you spend a lot of time here, then you know exactly what Naomi Dunford has done — wrecked an entire family and left a bunch of kids without a daddy for starters.

          Try harder.

          1. @Mad Max,

            Dude plenty of people are guilty of things like that. That’s personal.

            I saw that BTW.

            Business wise, what did she do that hurt others?

            What about Mr Indian Anik?

            1. @Johnny James,

              I said for starters. The rest is right here. All you have to do is master the search box. Is that too difficult for you?

              “Believe it or not, I spend alot of time here and have read everything on them”

              No, I don’t believe it. Because if you had, you wouldn’t be asking.

              Your act is fucking tiresome. You are accomplishing nothing here.

          2. @Mad Max,

            Sorry if I offended you. :(

            I just figured that since you replied to my post you were interested in my question.

            1. @Johnny James,

              Ok how did my comments get voted down that fast?

              Now Im pissed. lol

              Ill take that as she promoted Frank kern and wrecked a family then.

              Anik?

              A. Hypey copy
              B. Billing ????
              C. Fulfillment ?????

            2. @Johnny James:

              “Believe it or not, I spend alot of time here and have read everything on them. It’s still unclear to me what they have done, and I can’t find anything on them elsewhere on the net either.”

              That statement is so patently ridiculous, it is a 100% certainty that you are indeed a troll.

              When trolls flail around here, it’s a heads up that they are also flailing back in their own scammy lairs.

              Keep reading though, and you’ll get a taste of things to come.

        2. @Johnny James,

          Anik?

          I can repeat his series of lying-to-promote-fraud-products-then-say-dont-buy-fraud-products emails for you…then go ahead and sell more fraud products again…

          It’s from:
          http://saltydroid.info/lethal-commission-impossible/#comment-71636

          But I know about how you don’t like to search in boxes or click on things, so I made it appear for you again here below:

          “When I found out about how I could make some easy money online I got up onto mr. Singal’s list, but mostly he just sends me puzzle-mails that I still can’t figure out yet.

          Here are some I’m trying to cut out pieces of and put together to try
          to make some sense from them:

          First I found out from mr. Singal about making big-money
          by clicking buttons when he sent me this:

          “Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM
          12 Clicks from Install to Profits.”

          It was about a free money formula somebody
          named Philip Monsour wanted to tell me about.

          But I told mr. Singal it was too many clicks for
          me, so he sent me this one a few days later:

          “Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 8:21 AM
          If the sound of making $6914, $16,936
          or an impressive $21,211 a month for
          spending just 2 minutes and 7 buttons
          sounds like something you need.”

          In that one I found out about a man
          named Mark Hardy who made up an Instant
          Cash Empire by stealing a computer disc
          at a bar and then giving me the secrets.

          Also it’s when I thought maybe mr.
          Singal wasn’t telling me the full story about
          making $21,200 with 7 buttons and started to
          lose my confidence in him.

          I think he figured out about me and maybe other
          people not trusting him anymore, because he went ahead
          to build-up our trust for him by making us a video
          for us exposing the lies about the simple-click-money
          software and the liars who sold it to me.

          It was one of the more confusing puzzle-emails to
          understand but I went with my gut idea of trusting
          a person who told me he’d been lying to me to see if
          the puzzle-trail had an end somewhere. Plus he told me
          to go ahead and make a little less money faster when
          he sent me this one:

          “Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 5:59 PM
          If you could put up a site in about
          60 seconds and then NEVER touch
          it again – would you care if it made
          $33 a day or $548 a day?”

          It turns out that lot of people got tired of
          the one-click software that made too much money
          for them and mr. Singal wanted to tell me about it, too:

          “Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:42 PM
          My friend Justin Michie, feels the SAME
          way that most of you do. We’re tired of
          the “one click softwares that make you
          millions.”

          But I think they got a good vacation from it, because
          20 days later I got another puzzle-mail from mr. Singal
          that didn’t make sense to put together with the other
          puzzle-mails:

          “Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:12 AM
          There’s a new software that makes jv affiliates and link
          swapping as obsolete as the floppy disk.

          Imagine cash flowing into your accounts while you kick
          back on vacation?”

          In that one I found out that the Instant Cash Empire guy
          who made the 7-button Instant Cash Empire software had made
          me some more push-button software with his “weirdo programmer
          pal”.

          “Completely automates everything you need to do to make money online – a push-button solution to a truly unlimited income…Creates an infinite amount of niche sites at the push of a button… and they’re already monetized”

          It made me want to rethink about my understanding of infinity and also find out more about Mark Hardy – who I found out is just a PAID ACTOR and is really some people named Andrew & Chris Fox.

          It made me mad that mr. Hardy was just a paid actor and was thinking of giving mr. Singal some of my mind every time he sent me one of his new jv-affiliate emails that were obsolete now, but he did his old-trick of making me trust him more by telling me he had been lying to me when he sent another email later on about bad-people using Paid-actors:

          “Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:13 AM
          I’m pointing fingers..
          That’s right, I’m pointing fingers at
          the ones that KILLED INTERNET
          MARKETING.

          The lies. The actors. The actors who
          make fun of actors. It’s just TOO
          much.”

          None of it is still making any sense to me yet, but the more I think about it the more I think the only way to make sense of putting all these puzzle-email pieces together is that maybe somebody hacked into mr. Singal’s account and started sending out bunches of random emails.”

          Your thinking about mr. Singal reminds me about what my Grandma used to say to me:

          “Jack, there’s a sucker born every minute…and in case there’s a time when there isn’t…you can always hit up Johnny James again.”

          1. @Jack,

            Thanks Jack.

            Just wondering for opinions on him.

            I don’t understand the swipe either. Yep, I saw those articles and the comments.

            I need to find some bad bad stuff on them. Not just how Naomi is a nasty person.

            I want to find that “grey matter inefficiency” if you know what I mean.

  12. Hey Salty,

    Just a quick hello to comment on your video…

    Is it me or you went “meta” on us? . . . with the pause in the video and the photoshop editing, the sad music, the dad being erased away . . . that was very creative.

    Nice work, man

  13. I like in the video how she says, “Don’t tell lies.” So what is it when you say you are a marketing expert and yet no company has ever hired you to market a service or product for them? The only corporate job she has listed on her LinkedIn is Director of Member Communications which doesn’t sound like the kind of job where you do much marketing…

    1. @Shorty, Is all marketing corporate? There are any number of freelance marketing consultants listed in my home town alone available to design brochures, signs, and ad campaigns from classifieds up to newspaper page spreads and the business schools keeps churning out new classes of “creative types” every year where one or two out of every 30 grads get a job at an agency and the rest flip burgers for a living (excuse me – works as a barista) and get the occasional freelance job for a solo professional and the occasional small business.

      I’m sure the agency does a stellar job at a stellar price, but the plumber who opened shop down the street went with the much cheaper freelancer to design his marketing materials. Doesn’t seem to have hurt his business any, his truck is almost never here. Would that sort of work show up on LinkedIn?

      Still… has she ever undergone any formal training at any point in time? Her major was in history which I was not aware qualified you for a job in marketing and I don’t seem to find any indication that she’s spent time doing face-to-face selling in any capacity…

      1. @Melkor, I’m well aware there are freelancers, but Sonia was described elsewhere as having left corporate marketing to start her IM biz. And yes actually, one should totally list freelancing in your past work history on LinkedIn assuming one did actually get some gigs!

        1. @Shorty, Yeah, if your back-story claim includes being a corporate employee one should be able to point to a corporation that’s willing to acknowledge that you’ve worked for them, assuming your job performance wasn’t such an embarrassment to everyone concerned that you’ve all agreed to never speak about it again. Has anyone said anything specific about where she’s worked, or has that been quickly glossed over?

          I’m not on LinkedIn, so I couldn’t tell if her profile listed any such minor gigs on the more informative logged-in side, but if she’s been writing about small business/freelance marketing for years she should be able to produce at least some clients from outside the TT/CPblogger circle she’s done work for…

          1. @Melkor, by glossed over, would you happen to mean describing the development of her expertise thusly, “Somewhere along the line I got good at seeing what folks were really good at, and helping them put that into words.”? That is a quote from the About page of her Remarkable Communications blog. Her LinkedIn profile doesn’t list any non-IM jobs other than the Director position, so I would guess her earlier work history isn’t relevant either.

            1. @Shorty, That’s not even glossing over, that’s tossing her life between leaving college and entering the “IM world” down the memory hole.

              To be fair, one doesn’t necessarily need specific formal training to be good at communicating on behalf of yourself or others – the Droid didn’t attend blogger University for a degree in being all up in scammers’ bizniss – but if your claim is that you’re good at communicating marketing messages, it would be nice to see something like “after working Donny the Dogwalker on developing his presentation to potential clients he now books all of his available time 6 weeks in advance and bills clients 30% more on average” where Donny hasn’t since stopped walking dogs and started teaching others how to start a dog-walking business as part of your company…

            2. @Melkor, “To be fair…” Seriously? There is no need to throw scammers a bone and preach a who-needs-formal-training or bypass-education message. That is the scammer mantra! Did you get that out of an ebook or some “automatic system?” Contact paypal immediately!

            3. @Billy Ray Nah, I got that from William Shakespeare who never went to school to become a most excellent playwright, and Blind Boy Fuller didn’t study music at Juilliard.

              (The Droid will probably point out that his operator is trained as a lawyer, and lawyerin’ is all about communicating effectively but law school to professional public relations does not strike me as a common career path.)

              The point is however that if you don’t have formal credentials you had bloody well better have actual customers operating a real business that isn’t a camouflaged part of your own that can point to a specific, measurable impact your consulting and training has had on their operation. Which “Somewhere along the line I got good at seeing what folks were really good at, and helping them put that into words” doesn’t even begin to address. Which clients? What words were specifically a result of your help? How did that lead to a measurable improvement in customer acquisition, customer satisfaction and your clients brand?

              Sure the about page is an elevator pitch, but your pitch should just be a lead-in to specifics, not be complete in and of itself, existing in a vacuum designed to suck money into your wallet with no intervening work on your part.

              I’m not being fair to throw the scammers a bone. I’m being fair to preempt the next obvious line of defense about not needing formal education and get straight to the specifics where a real self-taught communications professional will have real specific answers.

  14. It’s all in Spider Shit Storm!

    I thought I read that one a long time ago but when
    I saw the transcription I knew it would be an eye opnener.

    THATS the ticket right there, the piece of the puzzle.

    And wtf yeah, what a MESS! And that poor guy Dave,
    that whole thing is pathetic.

    I guess Im kinda wondering how Salty got the transcript!

    But Carl, I guess I don’t blame you to be suspicious.

    1. @johnny james, Tons of people wondered how he got the transcript. If you’ll go back and read comments you’ll see that for yourself. There was a lot of speculation and ultimately Salty said he wasn’t going to reveal his sources. For a long time reader, you seem to be missing a lot of information.

      1. @FormerFriend,

        Thanks for getting back to me.

        All I was wondering is if someone can do a ABC for me as I did for Raygoza and Kimoto.

        There are about 50 other gurus I can do a COMPLETE run down of their crimes in 10 words or less.

        If we work together a little more functioning it may be productive.

        Instead you guys are posting his email swipes and taking the time to explain Im not a good reader, maybe Im not.

        What would you think? I don’t understand that Anik Email either.

        Vote this down again. LOL

        1. @johnny James ::

          So you are one of the many {/zero} avid readers who missed the Spider ShitStorm huh?

          Your ABCs for Raygoza and Kimoto are incorrect … and your request that other people make things simple for you is way lame.

          Don’t show up to book club being all like :: “what’s this book about?”

          Anywayz :: here you go … all 50 gurus in one word or less …

          Syndicate.

          1. @SD,

            “book club” + “Syndicate” reminds me (and apologies if this has already been mentioned): I ran across a very brief pop culture reference to The Secret the other day in the TV series Supernatural. (note that Tammi is a demon)

            Elisabeth: This can’t be-
            Tammi: What did you think it was? Make believe? Positive thinking? The Secret? No, it was me. You sold yourself to me, you pig! All I had to do is bring one good book to book club and you ladies lined up to kiss my ass.

            It aired in 2008, but I was doing other stuff then. Plus I hate commercials.


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

            1. @Mad Max,

              I understand that SD owns this site. I own sites too.

              When someone posts on my site with questions like mine, I would welcome them.

              So far, and note I said (So far) this type of justice is broad brush.

              FASCISM. As Salty mentioned in the post Assange post, the marines that shot the photographers “Must be handled carefully.”

              Ok, so negligent homicide? or Murder?

              if this site handled gun laws, would Zimmerman be given the death penalty?

              Please, prove to me that yall aren’t just bat shit crazy. Im being cool here.

              Why would you vote down my posts? Im a supporter who wants the facts, ABC. You are telling me you would rather argue with me for hours and NOT discuss the issue?

              LMFAO

              Change my mind, instead of arguing with me for hours guys, perhaps lets be productive.

              This shows me nothing more than that you have something to hide for the fact that you have no “steak” and no sizzle.

              Thats why I wanted to post. I wanted to make friends, not enemies.

              if you have such demons inside of you, thats your problem.

          2. @SD,

            The man himself!

            Honestly, Im on the fence. I am a libertarian too.

            I think you can understand that reading your work it is amazing & genius.

            But I do not think I have proper perspective as I do not know if you are entertainment or serious. I myself am in the industry and have recently grown curious as to if these guys are as bad as Raygoza or if you are fresh out of scumbags after Operation Empty Promises. You feelz me?

            I have spent hours on end debating with my hyper capitalist scumbag JV manager speaking a very similar language as I see you speaking, but somethings just don’t make sense to me. For instance, the transcription of Naomi and Dave proves a few very important things, 1. Unethical “sounding” speak regarding pricing (But the pricing is $47 -$97 correct?) And if it is business to business, that’s not in the realm of Raygoza.

            2. Her tax swindling. (Alot of people have that same conversation with their accountants.)

            I don’t understand why you target certain people and not target others.

            Im not here to troll or to give anyone BS, but it’s my curiosity to find out the truth.

            I don’t spend all day investigating everyone’s business so I don’t know certain things that you may know.

            I do however have inside perspective in another way, as being in the industry, selling all sorts of cool products online.

            I mean, the way I see it you target the high pricepoint seminar gurus and big time players. There are a couple small timers thrown in there here & there.

            Wondering about why you don’t go after the big time mainstream scammers that use fake names.

            Thanks for your time.

            1. @SD,

              Haha I like your style actually.

              I’ve had years of actual experience with the main characters you write about and alot of it is BAD. They are my enemies now, same as you.

              LOL

              So it’s not like I disagree with alot of what you say, just a little confused.

              Im confused over the “Association thing” for one.

              How in the FUCK do I know if my JV is in another niche and does crazy shit.

              Then, how do I know if that crazy shit is taken out of context?

              I still think the ABC thing is a good quick, clean way to figure out which side I want to be on. Especially without debates and mud slinging that goes nowhere.

              No offense, but I mean you could be a narcissist who doesn’t know shit. Ive never debated you before.

              Or perhaps you are driven by god and are a dude I should support.

              Which one is it.

            2. @Johnny James,

              You seem kind of lazy, and your words lack authenticity. But what do I know? Maybe I’m wrong.

              Maybe you’re on The Verge of a major epiphany.

              Might be you’re verging in the direction of having a clue. There’s even a damn movie. It’s only 15 min though. I was hoping for a feature length documentary. But perhaps I’ll get my wish in the fullness of time.

              You can lead a blind man to the light. But you can’t make him see if he keeps refusing to acknowledge that, in fact, he is not blind, he just has his eyes stubbornly shut tight.

              or something.

              No offense, but you calling @SD narcissistic seems kinda… … lame.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            3. @Wyrd,

              I have more than a clue and I agree with 90% of SD’s targeting, but why 15 articles on this retard Naomi Dunford (Who I have NEVER heard of) and none on Ivy Capital? LOL

              I just can’t figure out why you guys have the time to debate me when you could have said

              “He did this & this & that.”

              Is that too hard for you?

              Are summaries against the rules here?

              And I never said SD is a narcissist. I simply do not know, I can’t judge the man, never met the man, all I know is people here take the time to reply and be all cute and can’t have a productive discussion.

              Im already over the fence from my experience knowing that Russell Brunson is a piece of crap, but being in the industry and seeing the lack of perspective here and the RAGE, it tends to leave some skepticism in my mind.

              Im trying to figure out if this is a “hate” forum or a “truth” forum.

            4. @Johnny James,

              “Im trying to figure out if this is a “hate” forum or a “truth” forum.”

              My, my aren’t you so very CONCERNED!

              Here’s a hint: No one here gives a shit what you think. Salty has done all the work. All that is required of you is that you READ and form your own opinion.

              If you are unwilling to do this simple thing, and instead demand that you be breast fed like an infant, then you are kindly invited to fuck off.

              Oh, my goodness. I am so very sorry. Was that hateful? Well, then I guess this is a hate site. Toddle off now and tell all your pretend IM friends.

            5. @Mad Max,

              Hate sites are under alot of scrutiny for good reason.

              I don’t have an opinion yet.

              I never posted here before, but now after posting, yes it does feel like Nazi Germany a little bit here and this poses another contradiction why a libertarian would be running a site where people vote my first post down 5 times when I acknowledge everything the message here is. Sorry if I proposed a template, it could have ended up a productive formula for all “newcomers.”

              1. @Johnny James ::

                You’re too stupid to use words like libertarian :: capitalism :: and Nazi … so don’t.

                Let me tweak my advice to you slightly …

                Read a book.

                … yeah … that seems more appropriate.

            6. @Johnny James,

              Yeah, I know. Hitler was always proposing that people read and think for themselves rather than demanding that others do their work for them.

              It was one of the Nazi Party planks.

              But you’re right. What’s happened to you here is no different than being systematically starved in a work camp, then buried in a mass grave.

              The upside is that you’ll have one helluva story to tell if you ever manage to escape this virtual concentration camp.

    2. @SD,

      Well thanks for letting me post on your site.

      I can see I drove you guys up the wall so Ill leave ya alone now.

      You are probably very nice people in real life but have
      had your share of trolls and are pre-emptive about it.

      Thanks again!

      1. @Johnny James,

        For $47 I will sell you a push button system that gathers and distills all information from this site into bite-sized, 1st grade literacy level bullet points.

          1. @Johnny James,

            [@Mad Max, LOL!! You guys have a great sense of humor.]

            It’s amazing how I do that … carrying around all this hate.

            1. @Mad Max,

              Well you’re not carrying it around after giving it to me! Haha

              You guys KNOW you like my pot stirrin!

              Let me know when you want some more.

          2. @Johnny James, Oh for fuck’s sake… You’re still here? I’ll give you $47 to crawl back under the rock from whence you came.

            1. @Anna,

              Yes and I was just looking through Kimoto’s complaint.

              32. Defendants’ telemarketing typically is directed at consumers who have poor credit records. Defendants give these consumers a two-part pitch. The initial pitch begins with a notification that in connection with a prior credit application the consumer is eligible for a credit card. These “credit” card packages are often sold under the names of Advantage Capital, Capital First, and Premier One. Although there has been no previous contact between the sponsors of the purported “credit” card and consumers, the Defendants use the ruse of a preexisting credit application to help them obtain information about consumers’ income and bank accounts and to frame the pitch as an offer for credit. In this regard, the Defendants promise consumers a MasterCard or other major credit card that will ultimately help them improve their credit; tell consumers their payments will be reported to credit bureaus resulting in future offers for other credit cards; and justify the advance fees by telling consumers that they are necessary to eliminate interest and renewal fees.

          1. Guys, the following I hadn’t read. Even though it is none of my business and I do not promote the idea THIS should be anyone’s business, I can see how you would resent my skepticism. Also, no offense SD but your stuff really isn’t factual, it’s creative!

            I dig Creative man!

            But look, you can’t blame me when I read your stuff for 48 hours straight and I still don;t get actually WHAT happened. LOL

            I read this and now understand the story. I guess were both pricks to each other.

            This site is about Dave Navarro. This site is for those who love Dave Navarro and his family. Our hearts are torn that Dave has decided to leave his family, effectively abandoning his wife, Alison, and their three boys, Jacob, Joey, and Jonathan, to pursue (in his own words) his own ‘selfish’ ambitions.

            David has refused to talk via the telephone. David is not responding to fervent pleas via email or text message. All of his friends and family who love him and support him have been closed off and shut out. We have no idea if he is living out of a hotel, a second apartment, or a Waffle House. We have no idea of Dave’s whereabouts.

            It is our hope, and our prayer, that he will see this website and be reminded of, if not fully realize, what he has left behind. It is our greatest desire that he will leave his selfish ambitions and return to love and care for his family while balancing his responsibilities of being able to provide for his family, with that of being a proper husband, father, and brother.

            Dave has a family who loves him. Dave has a family that will support him. Dave has a community of followers whose least desire is to see him fail, self destruct, or sabotage his life or his career.

            Please leave a message of encouragement for Dave that we will welcome him home again and do what is necessary to heal the divide he has caused. Please also write a letter of support to Alison and her children if you can, to let her know that she is in your prayers.

            We love you, David, and we need to know that you are okay, and that you will keep your promise to love, to serve, and to protect your family, for better or for worse, in good times and in bad times.

            Please David, talk to us, and let us know you will be willing to come home. We will do everything in our power to heal this family.

            The Navarros:

            Anthony, Laura, Alison, Jacob, Christine, Steven, and many, many more…

        1. @SD,

          @Johnny James ::

          You didn’t drive anyone up anything :: you are my every day … yawn.

          So true. So very, very true.

  15. Because I´m on holidays (and meant to be avoiding work stuff) I wrote a post with a whole lot of info here: http://jadecraven.com/2012/06/21/on-drama-llamas-and-holidays/ It has information – specifics – that people seem to want. It also talks about why people are confused. It seemed the easiest way to convey a lot of information in a short period of time.

    If I was at home, I´d normally stay and engage. I think that this conversation is good. I need to protect myself from this to have fun so just wrote about everything I would have said over the course of a few days in the comments here. In terms of specific rights and wrongs, this is all I know. The rest of what I know is why people behave the way they do. I hope it helps explain the other side somewhat.

    1. @Jade, I think the point you’re missing is that these people DO support Naomi. There’s such a thing as a lie of omission, as silence equaling agreement with someone’s position. You may not agree that the IM lifestyle is detrimental as a whole because certain things are “helpful” or “good” in your experience, and that’s okay.

      But the problem is that they’re selling a lifestyle based on lies and misrepresentation. Dave was a friend to you during a dark time and so you have a lot of loyalty to him. That’s understandable. But that doesn’t change the fact that the $4000 he gave you was earned on lies and is $4000 that his kids don’t have now that he’s touring the world with Naomi.

      I’m not knocking you personally. I think you’re very brave to speak here and to speak out against certain people. I’m glad you decided to get out of the IM lifestyle, but continuing to support the validity of the products of people who’ve been shown to be liars and cheats, people who abandon their families like they’re so much excess baggage, that doesn’t help you or the people who you advise in any way. BP sells a “good product” that meets industry standards but I’m still not buying from them because they’re morally bankrupt. Do you see the parallel?

      1. @FormerFriend,

        I see the parallel. I´m just the type of person that gets too emotionally involved in stuff and can´t seperate things. Same in my personal life.

        I had to get out of the industry because I couldn´t tell what was ¨good¨ or ¨bad¨ and it was doing my head in. I sympathize too much, try to see other peoples sides and can´t make definitive judgements. Even now, after all this stuff, I don´t know what is right or wrong in all of this.

        It´s a personality trait that has consistently led to getting screwed over. So I totally see where you are coming from. I wish that I could be black and white with my feelings. I can´t. And I kinda think that´s a good thing as it shows I have a concious, you know?

        1. @Jade,

          Let me help:
          Lying = bad
          defrauding people = bad
          dishonesty = bad

          honesty = good

          Or even simpler:
          ANYTHING to do with Internet marketing = lie/fraud/bad

    2. @Jade ::

      This whole “industry” is a lie :: ALL of it … until you let yourself understand that you won’t be able to understand anything else … and that dissonance will aggravate all the other problems in your life.

      I’m not sure why you say this about @Barbara …

      I believe that her comments, at the time, lessened the credibility of the original posts.

      … because it’s way wrong … and how the hell could you even think you’re qualified in any way to opine about it? There are 500 posts here … and 40,000 comments … you popped in for a brief moment when trolls almost outnumbered normal commenters … and haven’t been back since.

      You have literally NO IDEA what I’m up to here :: which is totally fine … but @Barbara was the bomb so you can stuff that particular useless opinion in a sack.

      1. @SD,

        If I was anyone else, I would have said her comments were the bomb.

        But people were talking to me about it, via email, asking if stuff was true. They said that because of the comments and the tone of the site, they weren´t sure. At that time, I was so angry that I wanted certain people to get into trouble for what they had done. I wanted the community to speak out. But people were scared and unsure and no other site was writing about it. People in that community – the people who were losing their money – were doubting whether stuff was true.

        I haven´t commented since but I´ve been reading. Every post and that´s why I´m writing now. The shit that goes on makes me sick and I see how it connects to the bigger stuff. My concern is that people will dismiss the stuff they read here of fear. I don´t want that to happen.

        I don´t know what you are up to. I know it´s big. I´m mostly commenting so you can see the mindset of the people who need the most help.

        I chose to get out of the industry rather then deal with the dissonance. It just makes me wonder how much of all marketing is a lie? Does it mean that people should avoid other careers in marketing or sales because some people are unethical? I really love the field of digital marketing and know that bloggers borrow some practices from it.

        Seriously, though, I appreciate your patience with me. I irritate myself with my ´everyone has good qualities´ mindset as I inevitably get screwed over.

        1. @Jade,

          All marketing IS a lie, but it has become an almost acceptable collusion between seller and consumer–as in “I will pretend to believe your inflated implication that X product will seriously enhance my life if you will continue to distract me from the realities of this nasty, brutish, short and ultimately futile life that I am currently enduring.”

          Well it cheers me up anyway, and rather more effectively than the religious lies of distraction which require a similar collusion between seller and consumer. A good novel will do the same service–and novels are, by definition, lies too.
          There is no rule of life that says you have to crusade for either side. Really smart people have really flexible minds –and use them, thats how they get to be so flexible.

        2. @Jade, what IMers and MMOs do is not marketing…it’s a con job. Legit marketing and sales does not involve lying. IMers and MMOs pretend to be legit by saying good things like “I walk the talk” and providing tons of “endorsements” from their cronies. That’s one of the things that should set off your scam-dar. Good guys don’t walk around proclaiming how good they are.

          Compare how an IMers e-book is promoted versus a real expert’s book, like “Marketing that Works: How Entrepreneurial Marketing can Add Sustainable Value to Any Sized Company” from Wharton’s Prof. Leonard Lodish and Howard Morgan and businessperson Shellye Archambeau. There is no website with squeeze page, no limited time offer, no inflated price point, no bundling with consulting or other products. Hmmm, now why would a marketing expert…someone who works full-time studying marketing (not part-time because the bulk of his time is spent on the beach or buying luxury cars), is recognized by other professionals who are not friends, and skilled enough to have never been homeless living in his car (sorry, but it seems like 80% of scammers have an I was homeless story), not use these base(ic) tactics?

          There are good careers to be had in marketing and sales, but you won’t learn about it from those profiled by SD.

          1. @Shorty,

            I´ve thought about this a lot and I think my concern is that there are some people who employ internet marketing techniques that could get lumped in with this.

            I believe that information products can be valuable, and that you can ethically make money online. When you look though, these people don´t do a lot of the similar things that the other people do. I agree with a lot of the things you said about inflated price points and social proof.

            From what I´ve read though, bundling with the consulting is a tactic to make people choose the middle option on a sales page. I think that may be savvy selling rather then a bad thing, but I guess that this is a concept that is abused by morons.

            1. @Jade, that’s your red flag right there…if people use bundling as a strategy to manipulate customers into purchasing the middle package, they are not marketing/selling…they are scamming.

              In a previous job, I worked for a company that sold television programming. The bundles of programming were designed to appeal to different types of customers (I.e. sports fans vs movie lovers), not to trick customers into perceiving greater value than actually existed. That right there is the difference between legitimate marketing and grifting. You’re going to need to unlearn some of what you think you know about sales and marketing to make a real go of it. You’re asking the right questions to get there though!

            2. @Jade, I have a few ‘information products’ lurking on my hard drive and I’ve yet to come across one that wasn’t painfully overpriced. Even if the people selling it were making their best efforts to be transparent and honest and vulnerable about it.

        3. @Jade,

          Does it mean that people should avoid other careers in marketing or sales because some people are unethical?

          No. I spent the last few weeks working in the digital marketing department at a place named to the World’s Most Ethical Companies list. Actually, I might be spending July and August working on digital marketing for another company on that list.

          Jello Biafra said, “Don’t hate the media, become the media.” Salty paraphrased that in one of the older posts. The same is true of marketing. Don’t hate the marketers, become the marketers. Use your marketing superpowers for good, not evil.

          I’m not suggesting that you must seek out a company on that list or that every client must support a cause in which you strongly believe. But you can certainly use your digital marketing skills on behalf of an organization that doesn’t make you sick.

    3. @Jade, I found this one in your post:

      “The guilty by association thing isn´t helping anyone.”

      It’s the reason why I like to buy discount-puzzles missing 1/2 the pieces, because when you think about it, who needs having the whole puzzle anyhow?

      1. @Jack,

        To me, sometimes it feels like blaming every person in a school class just because one person does something bad. It´s the smaller connections I worry about. It feels like some people can be lumped in with this for making a small error in judgement.

        If you analysed all the smaller connections, just about everyone that operate a business online would be guilty. That´s how far all of this goes. The influence extends far beyond the IM community.

        I guess I´m curious as to where we draw the line?

        1. @Jade, You are presently consumed by major denial, and clearly are determined to not hear that there is no Santa Claus.

          You draw the line at the intersection of awareness and conscious association.

            1. @Dr Geek,

              Don’t feel so bad… if there were a Santa, he’d probably be in on the sick machine up to his eyeballs. How better to market the toys?

    4. @Jade,

      (I hope you’re keeping your promise & reading this AFTER your holiday)

      I believe you’re a good person Jade, but I think this post shows your rehabilitation from this world isn’t yet complete. Not that you’re harming people, but the prevailing ideas of the community are still strong in you, and they’re not letting you see the big picture.

      This isn’t a criticism; not only you were in deep & got a big dose, you *know* the people involved, so you have difficulty separating the good people from the bad acts (the bad people, like Ms Dunford, are easier to identify). And a lot of the people aren’t bad, they’re being drawn into bad acts. (FWIW I’ve had dealings with @Ali, and I’m certain she’s a good person. But SD didn’t bring her up, made it clear she was more victim than anything, and @SlowlyWaking [Hi @SlowlyWaking, hope all is well with you] stated repeatedly she “deserved no scorn”. Might the difficult time you were having, coupled with your illness, have clouded your perception of the comments?)

      Take care, Jade. I think you’re still working through things, but you’re on the right path.

      1. @Dr Geek,

        Who is @Ali ?

        That is the second reference to her I have seen in the comments on this post.

        1. @RT,

          She’s someone who would qualify as bein a a lower point on the pyramid, NOT a scammer, who somebody pointed out as an example of a Dunford-based success…SD was sorry she was brought into it (wasn’t a target, just an example of someone following the 3rdTribe path to “success”). I don’t want to drag her in to his again, so won’t mention her name.

      2. @Dr Geek,

        Hell yeah. I agree with everything you´re saying. In retrospect, the physical stress trigged a massive depressive episode. Also, I was feeling so stressed because of my personal involvement in stuff. Even just remembering and typing this is increasing my heartrate.

        I remember crying and feeling so bad. I remember feeling awful because it was my fault that some people were being brought into it. It has clouded everything.

        I don´t think I can rehabilitate, as you said. I don´t think it´s possible (but that is just my opinion). That is why I chose to stay personal friends with some people and just focus on digital. I don´t think people fully understand what it is like when you are part of the industry.

        People often choose small business as an alternate to a dissatisfying career. Some people, because it´s their only opportunity for income. For some people, like myself, this is their complete social outlet. It´s different now but over the past year, it has felt like my personality has been taken away from me. I lost my sense of self because it was so tied up in this one community. That´s why I´m commenting here right now. I don´t think normal people can see how the community extends beyond the money.

        It has only been on this holiday where I am rediscovering the person I used to be, way before I got sick. I went from completely screwing up to being useful, to being a screw up. For a while, the CB community was the only place I felt like I had value. Even now, I know I can write a guest post and get enough positivity to make it feel like this freelancing struggle is worth it. But for the post parts, guest posting and fake social proof is all a lie. And that means that my life, for several years, was a lie. I don´t want to believe that every good thing I did during that time was part of a lie.

        (Ended up having a relaxing weekend. The past two days have been massive tours and I´m in a good headspace now.)

        Appreciate your comments.

        1. @Jade, also want to give support, you have been very honest, obviously trying your best to do the right thing. I personally relate and sympathize with your struggles, confusion, anxiety, disillusionment, identity crisis and whatnot. Hang in there, that’s all I can say. You are already so far ahead of those you once looked up to who are so deep into deception they are incapable of questioning anything least of all themselves.

          1. @Regrets, Thanks. I know the questioning is going to piss people off. I just know that everyone visits here and freaks out, yet no-one is willing to ask how they can be better.

            I think I´m an extreme case in how I sympathize with people who have done the bad things, though. Trust me, I wish I could just hate people and cut them off. It would make life so much easier and simpler.

    1. @Acai Berry Scams 50% Off,

      So just who is Grandma Mary?

      https://andreavahl.com/social-media/grandma-mary-exposed.php

      Edu-tainment–it’s what you do when you want to sell people something, but do it within the guise of teaching and having fun.

      And, btw, I am all in support of comedy–yay comedy! The Salty Droid uses humor so that the awfullness of the consequences of the scamming are not so overwhelming.

      But what Grandma Mary aka Andrea Vahl is doing is using comedy to put people at their ease so that she can better facilitate the parting of individuals from their cash in exchange for pretend learning.

      At the end it’s all “touch the hem” and cult of personality. Guru style training pretends to live up to that proverbial “Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” thing. But in reality the message (that your emotional sub-conscious psyche hears) is always: you [the mark/customer] need Me/Us [the guru/circle-jerking-false-social-proving-network-of-gurus]. Without Me/Us, you are nothing.… and then Vader holds out his hand and says, “Join me,” or something, and that’s how you get the B-team.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Acai Berry Scams 50% Off ::

      What I find particularly unfunny about that schtick :: other than the complete lack of jokes or funny stuff … is that she’s pretending to be an old person … the prime meat in the victim pool. Terribly tasteless.

      Someone told me Andrea was nice :: so I snooped her until I found some pics of her with Alexis Martin Neely … and so now I don’t care if she’s nice.

      1. @SD, Yeah. That song and dance is dark.

        An appropo future headline for Alexis: “The not-so-great white shark.”

        Here’s “The Startup Princess” herself (how so very unicorny…):

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYpb7lTHQU

        Nothing quite like a fee-charged unicorn party at Disneyland to instill in people the fantasy notion that they can turn hot air into gold.

          1. @SD,

            Alexis Martin Neely? Yet another one I had not heard of. And she’s been on ABC. I have so much still to learn. (Like how not to end sentences with prepositions and how not to write sentence fragments and how not to use so many parentheses.)

            So she gives out legal advice? And also she’s the startup princess?

            Btw–the dude in this video–this is exactly the kind of pushy, over the top sales pitch I hate. And some folks might accidentally mistake this for journalism.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C67tjB7hBSo
            video link (in case it doesn’t auto-magically display in the post)

            Furry cows moo and decompress.

      2. @SD, Gotcha. I sure do ache for Andrea though, because she’s getting used by Social Media Examiner and the Copyblogger cult. I know, I know! It’s all volunteer work in exchange for “amazing social proof and visibility,” with an implied payoff at the end of the rainbow after they’ve exploited her genuine charm and expertise at teaching the more odious of Facebook’s stuff or she grows weary. It just makes me sick and sad. I like her. A lot.

        Odds are good that I couldn’t persuade her to scratch beneath the sparkly unicorn/everybody wins surface at this point in time but I’m definitely open to the opportunity if/when it arises.

        And I’ll just let you boys know that I understand and agree with Salty’s message, now that I’m detoxing from my proximity to the poisonous blogging-as-a-business Kool-Aid club, so you may kindly sheath your fangs if they’ve just popped out. Mind your manners. ;)

        One final note with all this MLM function blogging stuff – I keep being reminded of that ancient saying “Beware strangers bearing gifts.” Trojan inspired list building giveaways!

      3. @SD,

        How much importance do you place on pictures when it comes to deciding whether people are good or bad?

        If someone I knew asked to have a photo with me at an event, I may have trouble saying no because it seems rude. It can be incredibly hard doing due dilegence on every person in a community. I know because I did it for Dave (with some people – none mentioned here) and there were several times when I couldn´t tell. I don´t think I could thoroughly research all the people I might run into before I go to a conference or meetup.

        I´m being genuine in asking this. I´m worried that there is stuff out there that may come back to bite me. I know I provided a testimonial for a product I no longer believe in and am too scared to ask the person to remove it.

        @not a cool aid kid

        What people don´t see is just how powerful that social proof can be in other fields. People have gotten book deals based on a high profile post. I would get a lot of opportunities based on the people I knew and worked for in the past – stuff I wouldn´t have gotten on my own.

  16. Hey Jason and friends, it’s been a while !

    Remember me, I made this site ?

    http://saltydroidhelp.wordpress.com/

    Because you upset me so much when I commented here way back during the “shit storm” ?

    Well, I’m here with a status update, even though I know you won’t care.

    I’m still a 3T member, I’m still a Copyblogger and Sonia Simone fan, and since I last posted here I’ve made over $30,000 online.

    NOT by selling MMO information, but definitely using the information and ideas from 3T, Copyblogger and elsewhere.

    And no, I still won’t offer you any proof whatsoever of that. But hey, neither does Jason, so that makes us about even, I think.

    People, this is a hate site. There are some bad people being exposed here, and some people who just ticked Jason off, and some people who did absolutely nothing except express an alternative opinion, but it’s all just a house of cards. All sizzle, no steak, as someone said up above.

    Don’t waste your time on all this nihilistic BS, get out into the sunlight and enjoy life instead !

    And now I’m going to take my own advice.

    1. @still waiting ::

      … and you’re still a liar I see.

      Maybe you should start reading the bible or something.

      1. @SD,

        Glad to see you’re still following “The Sequence” !

        (Folks, it’s all here – Jason just used Step 1 – “If you give details anonymously, you’ll be called a liar”

        http://saltydroidhelp.wordpress.com/2011/09/08/salty-droid-comments/

        Anyhoo, pre-empting the inevitable, the reason for that post was just to show – Jason says “You can’t make money online” – and he’s wrong.

        It’s not easy, it’s not quick, and I’m still not making enough to live on – but I will, eventually.

        Because my site is built on all the stuff that Clark, Rouse, Simone et al preach – “don’t be an asshole”, “don’t lie”, “give great value”, yada yada yada.

        Go and do something more fun instead.

        And… cue the down-votes !

        1. Oops ! I’ve just realised that “still waiting” wasn’t me, last time. I was “also waiting”. But so, it would appear, were several other people. Ain’t anonymous commenting a bitch ?

          Ah well, my bad. The song remains the same…

          also waiting

          1. @also waiting ::

            Thanks for that important clarification … I’d hate to get all confused about which fake earnings claims belong to which fake person.

            1. @SD,

              OK, that *was* quite funny.

              But seriously, why would I come here and post false claims ? What would the point be ?

          2. @also waiting,

            Thank you for posting my comment to your site, and for your response:

            George says:
            11/06/2012 at 3:55 pm

            People should make up their own minds. Admin – whoever admin is – has probably been a subject of Salty Droid’s attentions. The real problem with Salty Droid is that it pricks the bubble of credibility of confidence tricksters – and they hate it, and are smarting – the damage – inflicted by humor, rather than bullying, is permanent.
            Reply

            admin says:
            26/06/2012 at 12:34 am

            I’m sure that’s true in some cases. Not mine though.

            And I’m pretty sure all bullies think what they do is funny, just like Jason. It’s not.

            And for the record – here is my response:

            A bully picks on the vulnerable and weak and makes fun of them. Jason picks on manipulative exploitative con men and women and makes fun of them in order to expose them for what they are. Many people are sucked into IM by these fundamentally unpleasant people with a ‘nice’ ‘friendly’ veneer. Jason calls a spade a spade, and does it extremely well. You are on the side of the lie disseminators. Shame on you.

            Currently awaiting moderation. Would be grateful if this can also be approved?

        2. @still waiting, “It’s not easy, it’s not quick, and I’m still not making enough to live on – but I will, eventually.”

          What happens when the bottom of the ‘information product’ market drops out in that very same ‘eventually’?

          1. @Holy Sh-,

            Who says it will ? The demand for the stuff I’m teaching hasn’t gone away in the last 50 years, why would it now ?

        3. @still waiting :: You want to act like this whole implementation of “Step 1” is some meany-bully tactic, but actually, let me show you why it is most definitely not.

          You sez …

          since I last posted here I’ve made over $30,000 online.

          By my estimates, the last time you posted here was ~Sept 7th, 2011 … the day after “Speaking of Spiders was published.

          Between then and today, that is ~10 mos. To be exact, that is 9 months, 16 days :: or 290 days :: from your last comment.

          Then you sez …

          I’m still not making enough to live on…

          Now, I’m not sure where you live, but by your own anonymous false income claim, you are making >$3,000 / month. More accurately, you are earning an average of ~$3200 / mo … or ~$103/day (assuming a 7 day week of earnings “online”).

          That would extrapolate to ~$29,000/year (after taxes :: depending on several factors)…

          … which is just a bit more than the median personal income in the United States, assuming the ~$51,413 household income / 2 = the median individual income ($25,706) … it doesn’t, but still, it is a good baseline … because…

          That would mean you are saying that, even though you are making more than the average American (on your own earning ~70% of the average American household) … “online” … yet this is “still not … enough to live on.”

          Obviously you are either (a) living a pretty fucking posh lifestyle … considering you have a day job (where you earn “enough to live on”) PLUS in your off-time you are earning more than the average American does in their whole work year…

          … or … (b) you are fucking lying.

          Forgive us if we resort to “Step 1” … but your samurai bullshido just begs this Step to be implemented by any sensible individual.

          Your self-contradictory “income claim” just reeks of IM-Syndicate style deceit.

          My {not} friend … you are a n00b, duped into a scam … and you are starting to follow the same scammer income-claim-inflation tactics (just to justify yourself to total strangers anonymously on a website).

          Welcome back! It is a pleasure to decode your nonsense.

          1. @Doctor Mario,

            The point of my claim is to refute the tag-line of this site. Jason repeatedly says that NO-ONE can make money online using the techniques offered by 3T, Copyblogger etc – and it’s not true. I said myself it’s not easy, but it’s possible – I’m doing it.

            Your attack of my claim deserves a reply, though.

            I should have said “I’m still not making enough to feed *my* family on purely from the website yet”. Overall my business is doing well, and I *do* make enough to live on, very comfortably. The website is finally becoming a significant part of that success, but it’s by no means a done deal.

            So, you missed

            (c) I don’t always type quite accurately enough

            Thanks for being one of the few reasonable commenters I’ve encountered here.

          2. @Doctor Mario,

            At first thought I was impressed with your writing style and said to myself as I was reading your post “Ooooh Snap!” “Doc Mario got em!”

            But then I saw “living a pretty fucking posh lifestyle”

            $650 a week is a posh lifestyle?

            So let me get this straight, you want everyone to work at Mc Donalds.

            The guy is starting a business which could be golf shoes for all you know.

            And you doubt him?

            1. @Johnny James & @also waiting / @still waiting …

              My point was that unsupported income claims by anonymous people on a website specifically geared toward bashing those very types of bullshit-tactics …

              … well? To call that hardly convincing is an overstatement. More like highly suspect.

              If you want to make specific income claims, put up or shut up.

              Post URLs.
              Name your business.
              Since those are scary … how about you just:
              Describe your business model, in detail, with things like :: sales figures :: average price per order :: total number of customers :: average client lifetime value :: etc.

              In other words… Do ANYTHING that would add one fucking iota of credibility to your claims.

              Or just shut up about it already [ed :: my preference].

              Cuz … hurr … durr … guess what!?!?

              I just made $97,632.48 online in the last 17 days … so probably thanks to the Frank Kern formula (MB + P + LSESC = $$) you guys should hire me as a consultant to teach you more about online suckcessmanship…

              … because in my online moneyz, I am making like 57x’s @also waiting (mathed on a per-week-basis).

              It must be sad to be n00bz … wishing you could earn just a tiny fraction of what I’m making! I eat your self esteem!!! Believe in me!! Trust my brilliance! Give me your moneyz$$$!

              See, very convincing right?

              That is what you sound like, only less funnier.

    2. @still waiting, Yeah, some of the stuff you find on Copyblogger and Friends is good. The good stuff can be found in Marketing for Dummies.

      The rest is rehashes of old content and sales pitches.

      1. This is I. Didn’t mean to post anonymously. For some reason the fields weren’t filled out, and I only noticed after clicking the button. :D

        1. @MKR,

          Yup, nothing is new, and everything is available for free if you’re prepared to look.

          Copyblogger is free too, of course.

          I’m content paying the subscription to get info a convenient package, just like I’m prepared to pay for bottled water and fast food. I’ve made my money back hundreds of times over, and saved hours and hours of trawling through the free stuff.

          1. @still waiting, Some of those IM products might legitimately be worthwhile, but the pushy, tacky garbage tactics they use keep me from being willing to support it.

            Copyblogger is at the low end of the skeevometer and still bugs me with its pitches.

            1. @MKR,

              Fair enough, but pushy sales tactics do not an evil cult maketh. There are people in 3T who are way to pushy for my liking, too. I just filter them out.

            1. @also waiting, “A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.”

              Strange: “Unusual or surprising in a way that is unsettling or hard to understand.”

              Sinister: “Giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen” or “Wicked or criminal”

              Wicked: “Evil or morally wrong”

              Sometimes SD is a bit of a butt at times, but he falls short of being a cult leader.

            2. @also waiting ::

              … thanks Margaret Thaler Singer.

              And 3T isn’t a cult … it’s an irrelevancy … just like you.

              Isn’t this fun? It’s like a dummy reunion show.

            3. @SD,

              I don’t understand. You think my name is Margaret ?

              {Burrrp}

              (That’s my “you are incorrect” buzzer)

            4. @SD,

              Ah OK, Google to the rescue, you don’t really think I’m called Margaret. Excellent.

              Yup, I’m irrelevant ! Just like your posts about Sonia and the rest of the Copyblogger crowd.

          2. @still waiting,

            Copyblogger is free? There must be some sort of upsell for people to be upset about it.

            1. @Johnny James,

              Copyblogger consistently and relentlessly sells a range of info products on their site, but the site itself is free, and the selling is low-key, by most IM standards.

              Which is why it’s so odd that Jason has got his metalized panties in a bunch over it. As you yourself said, it’s all pretty harmless in comparison to a lot of other stuff out there.

              Personally I picked up a load of good stuff from Copyblogger for free, which is why I trusted them to try the products, which is their business model in a nutshell.

              Move on, there’s nothing to see here…

        1. @still waiting ::

          … that’s your best comment today!

          Maybe you should start a blog about it.

          SaltyDroidCommentingIsNotFun4MeAgainThisYear.org

    3. @still waiting, Well, well. You are still consumed with nutty obsession. Funny how a mention of the Spider Bitch, Sonia Shamone or Turd Tribe has you scrambling back here like Pavlov’s dog. Feel free to look up that reference. We’ll be right here when you get back from aimlessly rooting around for clues on the “American Kennel Club” website.

      Times are obviously getting tougher for scammers and turd polishers like you. If you really want to protect your little bullshit farm, you might try to steer people away from Wikipedia’s “psychopathy checklist,” since it clearly identifies what you are.

      1. @Osmosis,

        Thanks for reminding me, I should add “They will call you a psychopath” to The Sequence:

        – but life’s too short.

        I’m curious. Why is me replying to a bunch of posts making my point made “psycopathy”, whereas when you drones do it it’s just normal ?

        Actually I’m not really curious. Have a nice life. Here. All the time.

        1. @also waiting, This ‘The Sequence’ thing sounds like some overwrought self-improvement schlock meant to protect True Believers from contrary viewpoints.

          1. @MKR,

            This is the The Sequence to which @also waiting or @still waiting is referring:

            Get ready for “The Sequence”

            There’s a fairly well-established sequence of replies given to all dissenting comments. Namely:

            If you give details anonymously, you’ll be called a liar
            If you give examples then if they include large numbers you’ll be called a liar and a scammer
            If the numbers are modest you’ll be mocked for being a loser or a noob
            If you do provide “evidence” in the form of a name or link, this will be scrutinised.

            Here are the options:

            If your content includes any “internet marketing” or “make money online” content, you’ll initially be branded a scammer
            If you protest and manage to convince people you’re genuine, you will be branded a lost soul and urged to close your site, get a real job and shut up
            If your content is in another area, you’ll be told that your success has nothing to do with the IM or MMO techniques you’ve been “scammed” for – or that you aren’t as successful as you say you are, regardless of how modest your claims are

            I post it here to save people the trouble of having to click over to @still/also waiting’s … blog.

            Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @MKR,

            “The Sequence” is my name for the amazingly consistent way all dissenting commenters are treated here.

            http://saltydroidhelp.wordpress.com/2011/09/08/salty-droid-comments/

            Anybody who feels it’s inaccurate is free to offer contradictory evidence. Jason’s first response to me here – “you are a liar” – and the responses to @Johnny James pretty much confirm the template, though.

            PS. I don’t teach self-improvement

            1. @also waiting, There’s a comment thread right over there where I gave an example of a good Internet marketer. I shared a dissenting comment.

              My statement did not agree with the prevailing wisdom. Do you see people attacking me for it?

            2. @also waiting,

              In the interest of trying to stay positive, thanks for breaking from the template. I mean–for some reason, you chose to follow it to the tee a few posts ago with your “since I last posted here I’ve made over $30,000 online.” claim.

              (Btw–writing that down makes it a claim not a fact. @SD has factual evidence of the scamminess of Naomi Dunford, Frank Kern, and many others.)

              But since then you’ve gone on to write things that deviate from the template. So thanks for that.

              I gotta say though–you seem really angry and antagonistic.

              I remember you from when you posted in 2011. I was new here then. IIRC*, you were not so antagonistic then, or at least you didn’t start of that way.

              Your initial angle back then which, IIRC*, was that the commentators were really harsh and mean. At the time, I thought that was a good point.

              Now, nearly a year later, I, will say: yes, the regulars on this site can be mean (to those they think are scammers or liars). Yes the site is one sided.

              But… SFW!? Where ever on this site did it say things are going to be fair!?

              This site The anti-scam, anti-marketing, anti-sales, get-the-fuck-outta-here-if-ur-trying-to-tell-me-to-buy-your-marketing-advice site on the web.

              So what?

              You say you’ve “made over $30,000 online.”? Good for you. {golf clap}

              I’m a fucking dyed-in-the-wool mother fucking skeptic. Look it up.

              I can be convinced that I am wrong on something. But it’s hard.

              You are not ever going to convince me merely by repeatedly claiming that you made money online.

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

              * I didn’t bother to look up that thread from last year to check for accuracy of my memory because you didn’t bother to check that “Margaret” reference before making your reply. I can totally out-lazy you. :-P

            3. @Wyrd,

              See my reply to @Doctor Mario above – the statement about the money I’ve made through my site is just to refute the tag-line here, not to brag.

              It *is* possible to make money online without being a scammer – I’m doing it. But, I’m sorry if that rings people’s alarm bells about me fitting some kind of “template”. And, I appreciate that you won’t believe me, but I don’t mind.

              I think maybe I am a little angry – 10 months ago this site was the first negative publicity I’d heard about Copyblogger, 3T etc – and actually, it still is. At the time it made me question the ethics of the advice I was taking, and the people I was taking it from.

              But all I saw *here* was anger, spite, unpleasantness and judgements about other people’s messy, complicated lives. Not any kind of damning indictment of Copyblogger or 3T.

              I found the few weeks that I read the site truly poisonous, to be honest, and was glad when I managed to disengage. I hope to “get out” again more quickly this time.

              Since then, I’ve satisfied me that there is nothing legally or morally corrupt about 3T or similar sites – they re-package widely-known information about online marketing, and make it available in a way I find convenient, and for money I can easily afford.

              So yes, it upsets me to see Jason attacking Sonia for – let’s face it – nothing much. And people like @Johnny James being subjected to the same “sequence” of responses to people who question the party line round here.

              And yes, being called a liar and psychopath annoys the hell out of me – go figure !

              I hope that answers your questions, and thanks for staying positive.

              You guys should consider the possibility that some of the people who comment here and seem to conform to your “template” are *actually* telling the truth.

            4. @also waiting…

              I posted this comment on your site – which has been awaiting moderation for a fortnight now!

              “George says:
              Your comment is awaiting moderation.
              11/06/2012 at 3:55 pm

              People should make up their own minds. Admin – whoever admin is – has probably been a subject of Salty Droid’s attentions. The real problem with Salty Droid is that it pricks the bubble of credibility of confidence tricksters – and they hate it, and are smarting – the damage – inflicted by humor, rather than bullying, is permanent”

              Why not approve comments on your own site? Go on. You know you can. Even if they are a teensy weensy bit negative?

              This site allows all comments & trolls like you are exposed for the hypocrites you are.

              You earned $30,000 in a year via IM – please deduct your frauduct expenses from this though. But of course that was a lie. Good possibility that you are part of the A team, and are desperate to comment here just to prevent the impact on your ‘customer’ base.

              Continue commenting and digging yourself into a hole and further damaging the ‘credibility’ of the wonderful ‘helpful’ world of IM. I think that is what you want? Yes?

              Or – if you have a shred of human decency – just approve my comment on your site. It is still there, you still can…

              http://www.imagecross.com/a/image-hosting-view-18.php?id=9137george-says.JPG

            5. @Random stuff,

              I just approved it, gladly. Sorry for the delay, I haven’t logged in there for nearly a year. I moderate comments to avoid the unpleasantness I see here – so far, I haven’t trashed a single comment there, fwiw.

              I approved a couple of others, you might like to check them out.

              I’m sure some of the angry comments here are for exactly the reasons you say – but not all of them.

              As for the total cost of my IM “products” in the last year – mainly 3T membership – it’s less than $600. In fact even less, because I’ve earned $30,000 since I first posted here, which is only ten months ago.

              Enjoy your site.

            6. @also waiting :: God Dammit!

              Stop it with your bullshit self-righteous posturing.

              hurr durr me make $30,000 in 10 mos. $30 thousand dollers ten munths thirty thousand 3-0-0-0-0 moneyz durr…

              Fucking shut up or prove it. You act like you are oh-so-different from these false-claim, fake-social-proof B.S. scammers targeted here. You pretend like you are oh-so-above the SaltyDroid site (while continuing to incessantly comment {read :: troll}).

              And you keep saying bullshit like “The point of my claim is to refute the tag-line of this site.”

              If that was really the point of your comments, then fucking refute it! Don’t just re-state (and re-state & restate) the vaguest possible, totally anonymous, 100% round-figure, completely unsupported {false?} income claim.

              It is obvious by your posturing & rhetoric that the real point of your claim has nothing to do with refuting the {tongue-in-cheek} tag-line … and everything to do with trolling for your 3T love nest {cult}).

              Listen, you don’t even have to tell us your exact business. Just outline, in detail (like I fucking said before):

              … your business model, in detail, with things like :: sales figures :: average price per order :: total number of customers :: average client lifetime value :: etc.

              Or S :: T :: F :: U!

              But you won’t. Because you know your “business model” is a sham. You know you can’t outline it here, because we will call you on it for being the fucking sham that it is. Or maybe it just is entirely a figment of your imagination?

              @also waiting :: you are a god-damned-idiot waste-of-breath excuse-for-a-fleshly-being. Nobody makes money online because that is not an “activity” you can “do” (unless you are using cloud computing to “print” digital money like the networks on which the Federal Reserve is hosting their servers).

              You don’t “make money” online because “online” isn’t a marketplace. It isn’t even a “thing” … it is a loosely defined concept referring to the complexity-system collectively known as the interwebz.

              You can use the interwebz as a medium of communication for making money in the real fucking world (a place with which you are obviously totally out of touch). But sorry charlie … there is no such thing as “making money online” … that is code-word for 21st-Century-MLM-Unicorn-Moneyz.

              Seriously @also waiting … Go ahead and try to @respond to me with some more rhetoric, posturing, and bullshit.

              Or maybe you can actually “refute” that tag-line with some god damn motherfucking proof!!!!

              Fucking n00b.

            7. @Doctor Mario,

              The more you post, the more certain I am that you’re Jason :-)

              I currently have $13,284.58 in my Paypal account, all earned over the last few months via digital products on my website. Out of 200 sales of my last product, I had one request for money back.

              See, it’s no more believable that way, is it ? I could post screenshots but you’d say they were fake.

              Sorry, I’m not prepared to post details, just like you won’t reveal your sources. I’ve seen the way good people are treated here.

              You’re right though, there’s not much point in posting any more, I’ve made my point, such as it was.

              (Quibbling about the semantics of online/offline doesn’t help your argument, btw.)

              This site *has* opened my eyes to the seedy side of the IM/MMO pyramid-stuff that *does* go on, and I don’t like it any more than you do. But that’s not I do; it’s not what a whole host of people I talk to do; it’s not what Copyblogger/3T espouses or sells.

              I don’t expect you to believe that, but I do think people reading these comments will.

            8. @also waiting :: n000000000000000000000000b!!!!!!!!!

              What part of:

              Describe your business model, in detail, with things like :: sales figures :: average price per order :: total number of customers :: average client lifetime value :: etc.

              Didn’t you understand?

              $13,284.58 in my Paypal account all earned over the last few months…

              Ahhh … clarity … err … ummm…

              …via digital products on my website.

              So I guess you at least kind of explained {read :: hinted at} your business model:

              Selling digital products, right?

              What kind of digital products? MMO? “How-to-something-something”? Ebooks? Software? Porn (jk, Paypal doesn’t process pr0n accts)???

              Out of 200 sales of my last product, I had one request for money back.

              Who the fuck asked you about your refund rate?

              What about the rest? That I actually asked about?

              Since it is in Paypal, is it really that hard to post your sales figures? Month by month?? Or week-by-week??? or fucking ANYTHING????

              Or what about your average price per order???

              Or your total number of customers????

              Or the average life-time value of a client?????? (probably this is hard since I guess you have 0 repeat customers, since you’ve been selling “digital products” for only 10 mos…)

              God dammit @also waiting … you are the least believable, most garrulous, unreasonably self-righteous person I’ve ever encountered on the interwebz … and that is saying a lot.

              Who the fuck are you trying to convince???

              Unless it’s yourself, I can’t imagine you are doing a very good job. Even if it is just yourself, I’m surprised you can buy your own bullshit (when you can’t even answer one simple fucking question)!

              I was much happier over the last 10 months when you went into your “fake online business” hole and stopped trying to mind-fuck me with your never-ending self aggrandizing bullshit!

              Seriously PU-or-STFU.

            9. @also waiting,

              I carefully read all of your comments. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but you exhibit a number of signs that strongly indicate you would benefit from professional counseling, and sooner rather than later.

              There are community based services that can help you. Make sure they don’t steer you to a social worker. You should insist on seeing a licensed psychologist, or better yet, a medically trained psychiatrist. If you can’t relate to the first one assigned to you, ask for a reassignment.

              Stay with it, and keep working through things. Sometimes it takes months or years to deal with issues, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck.

            10. @also waiting, I think now that you said about Dr. Mario being Jason Jones that it makes it the definitive proof that you are and have to be MoneyMakingBrain (did you make sure to bring about your Super-IP-Detector?)

            11. @also waiting,

              Thanks for responding to my comment.

              also waiting wrote:

              the statement about the money I’ve made through my site is just to refute the tag-line here, not to brag.

              I did not suggest or say that you were bragging. And, google defines refute to mean

              Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.

              What I said was
              Wyrd wrote:

              Btw–[your] writing [“since I last posted here I’ve made over $30,000 online.”] makes it a claim not a fact.

              You can’t really “refute” with mere claims. We could go back and forth forever and ever–with you claiming to be not-fraud and with commentators on this site claiming that you are. It’s all just empty pixels of text unless someone shows evidence.

              And, let’s suppose you did post a link to your site. And let’s suppose that your worst fear comes true–that many folks here, that may or may not include me, decide to verbally trash and castigate your site. …

              So?

              Would that harm your profts? Presumably, if the site has comments, those comments have a moderation process.

              But back to your previous statement

              also waiting wrote:

              the statement about the money I’ve made through my site is just to refute the tag-line here, not to brag.

              Actually, I’m not convinced that it was intended as refutation. Rather, I suspect you were intentionally priming the “The Sequence” so that you could point your finger at folks here and show them that they had a tendency to respond in a repetitious fashion.

              also waiting wrote:

              It *is* possible to make money online without being a scammer

              Yes. On this site though, folks tend to argue semantics on that point–saying that it’s not really “make money online” that works, but rather: you have some sort of venture where you are providing some sort of good or service, and at least part of that venture occurs on the Internet.

              There’s a reason for this stance: it’s because it’s the diametric opposite of at least the tone if not the actual words of IM-MMO scammers. They do claim often and repeatedly that you can MAKE MONEY ONLINE. And their implication is that it’s easy and fast. These days, they don’t always come right out and say “get rich quick” or “make easy money” anymore. Or rather, they do say it but only just enough to get you in the door so to speak. Once they’ve got you on the free list, they’re almost in your wallet so they change it up. They say: “this is not a get rich quick scheme!” And then a moment later they are talking about “developing passive streams of income.” and they make it sound so easy.

              See? Your rational brain hears the “this is not a get rich quick” but your emotional sub-conscious (the part that actually drives decisions) hears the wish fullfilment promise of money-for-nothing or, if not that then: work hard now for an easy income later.

              also waiting wrote:

              I think maybe I am a little angry

              That’s understandable.

              – 10 months ago this site was the first negative publicity I’d heard about Copyblogger, 3T etc – and actually, it still is. At the time it made me question the ethics of the advice I was taking, and the people I was taking it from.

              That was some good questioning that you did there. I would ask that you look some more again in the future.

              First, I’d like you to check this out, and it’s on this very page:
              link: saltydroid.info/sonia-simones-shame/#comment-84517
              Mad Max wrote:

              Copyblogger was my gateway into this sick bizarro world. At the time, I had just started using Elance to search for freelance writing jobs and found Copyblogger, Problogger, and Men with Pens through Google “how to make money writing online” type searches.

              Of course, I had no idea that these guys were all working together as a syndicate. I thought they were legit writers, not biz-op scammers.

              I remember perfectly Brian Clark’s introduction of Naomi and Sonia. He made some crack about how profane they were and I followed a link to one of their websites, I can’t remember which, and read a post about how scary it is to quit your 9-5 and go it alone.

              . . .
              It all seems so ridiculous in hindsight, but the lesson here is that this stuff is POWERFUL for people who are looking for answers. Never in my wildest imagination would I have thought that all of these seemingly loosely connected personalities and websites were organized and united in their effort to deceive me.
              . . .
              Today I’m happy to report that I do make money writing content for a newsletter at a rate of $100 for 500 words, far more than you could ever hope to make from a freelance slum like Elance. But here’s the deal–the guy I write for has a legitimate offline business. The only thing “internet” about our relationship is that I met him online and we mostly communicate over email. That’s it. No biz-ops, no blogging, no affiliates.
              . . .

              What you had a few months ago is called cognitive dissonance [wikipedia.org] — “a discomfort caused by holding conflicting [ideas]”. Temporarily, you had to try to hold onto the idea that copyblogger and/or 3T might be bad at the same time that you were also trying to believe that copyblogger was selling you good, important, relevenat info worth buying.

              I would love to say lots more, but time is pressing. One last note

              also waiting wrote:

              @MKR,

              Fair enough, but pushy sales tactics do not an evil cult maketh.

              Based on my own life experience and all the stuff I’ve ever researched regarding cults, I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. At least partially: maybe it’s not the case that every pushy salesman is fronting for a cult, but it most certainly is the case that every {financially successful} cult has a pushy salesman at the front pushing people through the door. How else would they get new members with which to continue the cult’s parasitic existence?

              There’s has never, ever been one time that a pushy salesman convinced me to buy something that I turned out to be happy with afterwards. Pushy sales is manipulative, that’s why there’s law about being able to change your mind up to three days after the sale or something.

              Pushy sales gets used to push things that people would not otherwise buy. Sometimes what you wind up buying is a whole new {fucked up/broken} lifestyle and personal value system.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

    4. @also waiting,

      Im not going to Judge until I know more.

      We are in SD’s house so I respect him for having me.

      I have spent some time researching Copyblogger, from the outside yes it looks very harmless.

      If the $400 package is extensive and doesn’t fall short, it could be acceptable.

      Regarding price points, billing and refunds, obviously Raygoza should be in jail for the rest of his life.

      Daily rates are also legal as these are as well: http://www.universalattractions.com/artists-roster

      The top artist on that roster is $100,000 for 3 hours.

    5. @still waiting,

      Why do people like you always come here and say “Don’t waste your time on all this nihilistic BS” without realize realizing they’re being hypocritical, having already thought it worth spending the time to comment, and then always follow it up with “get out into the sunlight and enjoy life instead” (hoping that will cancel out their negative vibes) and then realize that they’re not out in the sunshine themselves, so they then always add “And now I’m going to take my own advice”, but then always keep on commenting?

      Just wondering.

      1. @Annonymous,

        This is my first visit in about a year, and I don’t plan on staying long.

        But yes, guilty – I spend far too long in front of my computer and need to get out more.

        But there are people who obviously live *here*, and that’s tragic, imo.

        1. @also waiting,

          Get out more — I know the feeling. Last week I moved my whole envelope stuffing enterprise to the dog park.

          Speaking of things that make you go woof …

          What did the hungry Dalmatian say after his meal?
          “That hit the spots!”

  17. Someone wondered if Amy Hoy’s “Unicorn Free” was a SaltyDroid reference …

    http://unicornfree.com/

    … but it’s only fake free of unicorns … one of blandest of all possible ways to sell a unicorn.

    Says she …

    @soloconsulting not to put too fine a point on it, but if you read his site, you’re basically rotting your brain.

    @soloconsulting he’s a psycho stalker and a scumbag. you know he threatens me by email?

    http://twitter.com/amyhoy/status/215505726230110208

    What’s with this particular batch of losers and their fake threats? I don’t even remember speaking to this one … but I found it … August 19th 2011 …

    Subject: Do you like fake robots?

    hi amy.

    it’s funny cause way back before i turned into a robot … i was teaching myself the ruby on rails … and think you had a different blog back then that i thought was really cool. i was gonna talk to you but i never did.

    and now here you’ve floated into my fake robot life. if i was still capable of being disappointed … i’d be disappointed.

    anywayz :: here i am … welcome me!

    Is that a threat … or have I once again been grievously defamed? When will someone who is not a broke ass loser defame me? Please … I’m asking nicely and everything.

      1. @Jack, Well, if she was all up in Dunford’s inner circle and had never really read the Droid, only the strawdroid Dunford made up to make herself look good that email could seem a bit sinister.

        But how you get from “vaguely sinister” to “Stalky McStalkerton issuing threats” is for someone who knows a competent lawyer to sort out during examination if he wants to bother when he’s got a spare moment.

          1. @Jack, Well, she seems friendly enough but a bit noncommittal, like she hasn’t quite made up her mind who her audience is yet.

            1. @Melkor, I think so far she knows the audience for her is “the world” and then probably she will segment that part some more.

        1. @Melkor ::

          But you’ll notice that email was sent before the start of the Naomi posts :: and I’ve never spoken to her … or about her … since. Although that’s obviously going to change now.

          I always ping first parties to the story before I start on something new {I think it’s called reportering} … give people a chance to tell me I’m wrong. I canvased a wide swath in this situation because I was thinking it would be precarious.

          Some people are silent … and that tells me something. Other people respond reasonably and give me the info I’m seeking … and that tells me something. And a small percentage go bat shit … and that tells me most of all.

    1. @SD, I don’t want to jump to conclusions to fast, so I’m spending most of my time right now reading about her at a blog she made about her name:

      http://amyhoy.com/

      I think from reading the first post she made she seems pretty friendly, really.

      1. @Jack,

        void main( void ) {
        printf(“Hello world!\n”)
        }

        Context free grammar FTW! :-D


        Furry cows moo and decompress.

      2. @Jack ::

        I can’t quite remember :: but I think right before the NaomiApocalypse Ms. Hoy was launching some lame unicorn coaching thing for multi-thousands … then MensWithDumbPens launched a multi-thousand dollar thing right after.

        The mini-syndicate wanted so much to be like the big boy syndicate :: cause $297 isn’t ripoff enough to make such a low conversion proposition sustainable … but some psycho stalker went and fucked that all right up.

        Anyway … if anyone remembers the name of the launch … or has any of the sales copy … I’d appreciate seeing it.

          1. @Jack ::

            So she’s paying Charlie Gilkey … sounds about right.

            Here’s her sales page :: I knew I remembered it being extra stupid …

            http://unicornfree.com/30×500/

            Only $2500 :: but as Amy points out in a totally non-scammer type way … at least it’s not a ripoff like Harvard.

            Here’s her also totally non-scammer type disclaimer …

            Unsexy Lawyer Note: Are these results typical? No. Are they guaranteed? No. But I do offer a 100% money back guarantee if you put in the work and still don’t feel the class is delivering all the power-packed education I’ve described.

            Sexy Lawyer Note: Nontypical testimoanial based advertising is no longer allowed {as of two years ago}. Disclaiming it is meaningless.

            Amy’s got robot problems.

            1. @SD,

              Naomi used to rave about Gilkey. But I´ve paid him for consulting myself and he is one of the very few people I actual still respect.

              I know you will have a different perspective but he is the one consultant that actually knows his shit. Naomi´s products were extremely basic but he goes into some of the higher strategy: http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-business-lifecycle-stage-zero/

              I will say that a lot of the pricing by the new wave of internet marketers is bullshit. Seriously, if you have little experience in business other then making a few sales from your blog then you are not equiped to charge hundreds of dollars an hour for consulting. Nor should you charge $600 for a basic infoproduct.

              The Damn Fine words course I think is different. I know that James´ hired someone to make sure that the students would learn as much as possible from the course. She invested quite a bit of money in the development. In that respect, I believe that people should charge more.

              Not defending her, just the pricing choices

            2. @SD,

              I can’t speak for her launch class, as I have no experience of it, but Amy does have a ‘real’ business – http://www.letsfreckle.com

              (I use it for tracking time on various jobs. It’s a great piece of software)

              1. Professor Yaffle ::

                Yep. And Andy Jenkins really does do lame work on lame movies. And Joe Polish did actually clean carpets. And Alexis Martin Neely practices law. And John Carlton writes ads.

                So? You certainly would never find yourself featured on this site for selling {functional} software as a service … but it’s no protection against featuring here either.

                There are lots of companies in the time management niche. I’m certainly going to be recommending that people who care about other people switch to something else that doesn’t have a vicious and heartless back-end … flowing unapologetically into the scamworld machine.

            3. @SD,

              Yep. And Andy Jenkins really does do lame work on lame movies. And Joe Polish did actually clean carpets. And Alexis Martin Neely practices law. And John Carlton writes ads.

              When they’re doing those things, they’re being more like a normal person–they have some skill (I mean presumably they’re at least semi-competent at their job) and they get paid for exercising said skill.

              But that’s just peanuts to what they can make if they can convince other people that they’re some kinda super expert that you just have to listen to.

              It’s all about the cult of personality. And also it’s about convincing people to give you all their money to have their wishes fulfilled.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            4. @SD, I can speak from first hand experience that Charlie Gilkey is a liar, a thief, and one of the most arrogant human beings I’ve ever had the misfortune of dealing with.

            5. @Jade, sorry, but I’m going to vehemently disagree with you re: Mr. Gilkey.

              He’s a philosophy major who knows a number of big words (and to his credit, actually uses them correctly). He’s also a veteran (and those are people for whom I automatically give a baseline level of respect).

              Beyond that, however, he knows nothing of business. Nothing. His skill is taking important and powerful ideas from things he’s read (written by people who have actual DONE some real work in their lives), distills it (think Cliff Notes), and spits it back with the aforementioned big words appended on the front and back. (he curses now and again to “keep it real”).

              Charlie is a good reader. That is all.

    2. @SD,

      I’m no lawyer, but if someone said something like that about me (and if I’d sent the same email you did), I’d sure be talking to one.

  18. I want to reply to the people saying “let’s not hurt people’s feelings even though they’re total scammers”. Better late than never, right?

    Because I’m sorry, but if you’re a criminal who fraudulently took people’s money through fake promises and “social proof” (fake experts recommending fake experts so everyone “in the know” seems to be an expert) then you need to shut the f up about how something makes you feel. Who gives a crap about how a scammer feels? Have you forgotten that that one scammer made a LOT of people feel even worse? F their feelings. Bash them until they’ve refunded every f-ing person they’ve ever ripped off. If not, then keep bashing until they do.

    I’m seriously getting tired of people moaning and bitching about the rights and feelings of criminals and scammers. They gave away their entitlement to rights and asking for empathy the moment they started doing crime and/or scams. How would you liked to be f’d out of your money or be a victim of a crime? Let’s see if you care then. They got it coming. Karma’s a bitch, but they gave birth to her so they’d better pay alimonies… know what I’m saying?

  19. Thanks for the heads up on a lot of this. I have been driking some of this kool aid and need to be more suspect. I think the line between being real and fake is whether or not they are helping people make money with real businesses or if they’re selling the crowd who wants to be ‘just like them.’ Sitting on the beach while people buy their ‘get rich selling shit on the internet’ stuff.

    I have had problems with Dan Kennedy’s organization at times, but Dan is much more real deal than not. Bill Glazer was a gouger of the worst kind. Squeezing as hard as possible, selling for as high a price as possible, then throwing in shipping charges high enough to pay for the entire production of your product. He’s gone now and I suspect that was part of it, the new people seem much more reasonable.

    I have made many hundreds of thousands of dollars in my real business using Dan’s teaching. I know of many others who would say the same. Have a whole bunch of people bought his stuff and done nothing with it? I’m sure they outnumber the people who did very well by a wide margin. I don’t consider that Kennedy’s fault. Is he guilty of associating with some of these charlatans? 100%.

    I think I just talked myself into the scumbag argument. I have bought some of these other people’s crap on his recommendation. Shit.

    Thanks, I needed that.

    1. @bigmuddy ::

      When you were buying other people’s crap based on his recommendations … were you doing so knowing that many/most of those people had paid to be part of Dan’s wicked expensive mastermind group?

      Even if you tried your hardest to me more “suspect” as you say … you’d never even get close to glimpsing the true depths and darkness of these associations.

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