265 thoughts on “10 Internet Marketers Doing It Right”

  1. A good “Internet marketer” is someone who’s using basic marketing to sell something useful, not someone repackaging basic marketing into “Make $3000 selling junk to people” for $(1)27

    If you’re not sharp enough to figure out what the IM product peddlers are peddling without needing their products, then you’re probably not up to the task of running a real business.

    I picked up a copy of Marketing for Dummies and got more from a skim than I got from years of reading IM blogs.

    1. @MKR,

      Yes! One who teaches their students to produce within their specialities
      and not “fake IM expertise” for an affordable price is some good stuff!

      1. @Johnny James, What do you do when your students don’t have any expertise anyone would pay to be trained in and no realistic way to acquire any? Tell them to write fiction? fanfiction.net is full of proof that most people can’t write well enough to compete with a room full of monkeys banging on typewriters, let alone write anything people will pay for.

        (On the other hand there’s “Twillight” which shows that people will in fact buy monkey-typewritten word salad.)

        Anyway. Most people do not have the knowledge, the discipline or the imagination required to be in business for themselves. The ones who do may want or need specific services or training, but you can’t start with a random pool of people with no previous business experience and tell them that they can be paid for any random shit they know how to do.

        They can test their ability to become visible in the marketplace using a free blog as home base, and approximately all of them will discover that they can in fact not attract a crowd of more than 10-15 people because they’re trying to compete with about.com, E!, or a university professor writing about the topic on Scienceblogs and their potential audience already has more content than they can handle. Which will at least not cost them $10,000 they don’t have while being boiled by Prosper, even if the experiment will eat up some free time.

        1. @Melkor,

          Very good points there. Since my own success came from concentrating on my own expertise or knowledge. Expertise for your market and Knowledge for your multiple business models in that market.

          Ive never met someone who couldn’t at LEAST take advantage of $10 keyword domain names or managing jobs using scriptlance. I’ve really never even really super really met anyone who couldn’t at least build a movie review site if they were passionate about movies. Never met someone who took photography who couldn’t sell their photos on Istockphoto.

          But yes, if you do have passion, you have power in your words.

          So my opinion is to figure out where the passion is. If no passion for anything then as you say, it would be more mathematical business like the keyword domain names.

          If you are an affiliate marketer, a good affiliate marketer has passion in his posts. They need to be producers of extreme value.

          If you have 10 original ringtones for $20 and it’s not selling, then I would add ringtones for that same price.

          This is what I have always referred to myself as “product driven.”

          “Sales driven” is when you get more manipulative on your sales page.

          I agree that this mentality is diseased.

          The more value you create, the better mutherfucking conversion rate! Haha

          But unfortunately, some people only have “passion” or as Salty says “No grey matter.”

          And what Salty said is true:

          “The sad thing is Susan :: even when the people who need to know this information do see it … they aren’t always able to hear it because they’ve been slowly brainwashed by quacks.”

          1. @Johnny James,

            A word of warning: This will not end well for you.

            You seem to think that the “lots of true things” that Salty says don’t refer to you, but….

            ….I don’t think you really want to give anyone the chance to finish that sentence.

            1. @Yakaru,

              Im not sure if my failure to understand the general intellectual algorithm here is a product of my willingness to give you guys the benefit of the doubt or you are proud to be against entrepreneurship?

              Or you assume all I do is “teach Internet Marketing?”

              Do you guys generally have a problem with all entrepreneurs who use the internet to advertise? Or do you think you sense a hyper capitalistic tone in my reply to Melkor?

              I am not a hyper capitalist at all.

              As I said, I believe in being product driven, in other words creating your product, service or performance, making a portion of it available for free before purchasing and knowing what it is you are purchasing. The same model you probably use for a variety of services and products.

              So if it was a crap product, it would not sell.

              Scammers and boiler rooms are not to be trusted amongst both consumers and “marketers” or “whatever you want to label entrepreneurs” like myself.

              Now would you like to finish your sentence now? LOL

            2. @Johnny James,

              In answer to your questions (in order):

              1. That’s not a question, so it shouldn’t finish with a question mark;

              2. I have no idea what your product is, but your writing is too ungrammatical for it to have anything to do with writing;

              3. No, and you would not have asked that question if you had have read the site a bit more;

              4. No, not until you identify your product. But until then, based on past experience on this site and the general tone of your comments, I assume that there is something quite shady about your product.

            3. @Yakaru,

              #1. My question mark was again to give you the benefit of the doubt. My tone of voice would have ascended three whole steps higher at the point of “neurship?” if I was standing in front of you because I am mister nice guy.

              #2 & #3: “if you HAD HAVE READ the site?”

              And I am the one who is grammatically challenged? My speeling iz empecabal.

              No, writing or “marketing” is not my forte.

              #4. Oh, ok I get it. Kinda..

              And if it matters, aside from how I made my MiLiOnS I do teach a workshop and the methods I am asked to cover by my students is product creation, software creation, app creation, audio & video creation, Photoshop, HTML, Youtube and Affiliate management.

              Thank you for answering my questions.

        2. @Melkor, E! and/or a university professor… damn, I should have looked there back when I wanted to do-it-yourself refinish my scratched alloy wheel. Thanks for the tip!

  2. For the un-initiated, please allow me to translate (except I’m not @SD and I don’t speak with his voice and this is just my opinion):

    The Salty Droid is throwing down the Gauntlet of Challenge:

    For any and all that have come to the blog in the recent past or long past and made claims of good Internet marketers, now is your chance to get that onto the record! Come one, come all and show us the good internet marketers.

    1. Don’t be vague. Name specific marketers and say exactly why that marketer is “doing it right”.
    2. Don’t bother listing anyone that’s already been given their own article on this site. (“but why not?” you might ask. Because: no fair minded, truly reasonable person can read through the various misdeeds of these folks and the ugly cartel, lying-scam-fraud things that they do and reach the conclusion that they’re “doing it right”.)
    3. If you’re (non-)argument is something like “I tried before, but you wouldn’t listen” or “you were rude”, etc, just don’t even bother posting. Please. There, see, I asked nicely. I said “please” a lot.

    If any combination of one or more posters can get Salty Droid to come anywhere close to acknowledging “yes that person is a marketer that’s `doing it right’ 10 or more times then that combination of posters wins bragging rights. Wheee.

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd, Rand Fishkin seems like an ok guy. What he’s doing right: offering a useful service at a fair price, not really being pushy, not developing a incestuous cult.

      1. @MKR, Exactly what sort of “useful service” does this Fishkin guy provide? There are a lot of folks who do the soft sell, the whole “if this isn’t for you, don’t buy it” thing. The problem is, what they’re selling is STILL about something-seven-dollars worth of fluff wrapped in a pretty ‘inspirational’ package.

        1. @Holy Sh-, An independent spidering of the Internet so you don’t have to rely on the trickle of information from Google’s Webmaster Tools.

          It’s a service used by companies like Home Depot and Disney, not the 3T bandwagon.

      2. @MKR,

        RF is mostly hype.

        He preaches drinking the inbound marketing koolaid without giving real data. He gives anecdotes – “look at this piece of content on some website! Isn’t it awesome! Content is king!”

        He preaches to noobs. He makes them think that all you have to do is 1) create “great” content and 2) market it.

        Those two things requires an incredible amount of time – so much so that the successful websites/blogs have armies of writers, designers, developers, marketers, et al doing the work. The average Joe who RF is preaching to is in for a rude awakening trying to do it all.

        RF glosses over outbound marketing – advertising, cold-calling, and so forth – because, in my opinion, it’s not in his interest. Meanwhile all the big successful companies spends billions on that form of marketing, so it must be somewhat effective.

        The subtle reason Rand’s approach of “inbound marketing is king” works is that his own audience is the type that lives online and is rabid for search engine placement.

        So to the follower it seems like a strategy that makes sense.

        But the reality is that in most industries, the noobies’ potential clients/audience don’t live online reading blogs and Tweets and absorbing “great content”. If I try to market to plumbers or construction contractors using Rand’s approach of creating rich blog posts, videos, and viral Tweets, 99.999% of my prospects are not gonna see it because they are living non-internet lives mostly.

        But to RF, it’s easy: just create viral content! You know, because so many noobies have such amazing video and literary talents. I mean, the advertising and entertainment spends ungodly amounts of money everyday using the best talent to create ads, movies, and music – yet the majority flop. But the average IM noobie with 78 dollars to his name can create viral content by merely not giving up and listening to his audience!

        1. @jer44,

          Fair enough, you don’t think Rand’s advice applies to ‘boring’ industries. I can see your point, to a degree. But he doesn’t sell advice. All the hundreds and hundreds of posts and videos where he talks ‘creating great content’ are completely free to access. They charge $99 a month for a set of tools, the benefits of which are quantifiable. You get a certain number of web crawls, a certain number of campaigns, a certain number of keyword reports, etc. Even if Rand’s views on SEO were complete bullshit, it wouldn’t affect the functionality of the chargeable SEOMoz service, so I don’t really see how he fits in here. And, like Aaron Wall, his focus seems to be on established businesses.

    2. @Wyrd,

      OK, I’ll bite – how about the guy who runs this site ?


      Oh no, he’s a scammer – after all, he’s selling SEO tactics, which are available everywhere (and are total BS, right ?), he has a FREE product of “$57 value” in the top-right corner of his site, with an email signup box right above… OK, so that’s a no-go.

      Except – oh, wait – Jason did an interview for him !


      So surely we have to assume he’s not a member of the axis of evil after all, right ?

      But all the signs were there – now I’m all confused, it seemed so simple the way you explained it before… maybe the world isn’t made of black and white, after all ?

      1. @also waiting ::

        So you’re nominating Aaron Wall then?

        Interesting choice :: I don’t think Aaron considers himself an Internet Marketer … but I see your point. I’m actually quite surprised to learn that you’re an SEOBook reader … what with you being such a raging idiot and everything … cause I’ve noticed that sometimes AWOL’s posts are more complicated than some fat chick getting her hand stuck in a wine box.

        1. @SD,

          I’m sure a lot of people making money online wouldn’t consider themselves IMers. That’s doesn’t mean they’re not.

        2. @SD, I’m torn about Aaron.

          He’s smart, and I like his blog, and I used to be a member of his quite-expensive membership site. It was quite expensive, but also good.

          Then again, he’s the top-of-the-class landmark study for Copyblogger’s Teaching Sells product, about how you should stop doing things and get rich teaching other people to do things.

          1. @Sundog, You aren’t torn, you’re confused. Aaron Wall isn’t hustling grandmothers, nor targeting grossly uninformed newbies. He’s not knee deep (or any deep) in carteldom, and he’s not “A” team, or “B” team, he’s essentially “Team Wall.” He offers advisory to rational people, primarily established businesses, and without the emotional or lifestyle button pushing.

            Copyflogger’s referencing of Aaron also doesn’t constitute an indictment of him. If anything, it shows that they are attempting to play off of someone else’s legitimacy.

            If it’s the price, and you’re looking for a discount on his services, just tell him specifically what rate you think would be a “non-scammer” rate. If he goes a penny over, then you can say, “I knew you were a scammer!”

            1. @Bindar Dundhat,

              I don’t actually have a problem with his prices. But his affiliation with Teaching Sells makes me think he’s feeding the machine.

            2. @Sundog, Does the affiliation go both ways, or is the Teaching Sells crowd namedropping to trade on his legitimacy?

            3. @Sundog, “his affiliation with Teaching Sells makes me think he’s feeding the machine.”

              You mean from having been a *customer* 5 years ago? I thought buyers were victims, not scammers. How is he currently feeding the machine?

            4. @Bindar Dundhat,

              Bindar, he assisted in their marketing. Of an expensive frauduct. By LENDING his credibility to the project, and crediting their model for making him successful. Go look it up before you argue anymore.

              Maybe he hasn’t since then, but it happened. This is the internet, you can look it up.

            5. @Sundog, “This is the internet, you can look it up.”

              In other words, you have zero facts to back up your assertion.

              You are making vague accusations with no supporting documentation or links whatsoever.

              I spent time researching this before I even commented, and found nothing alarming. That’s why I’m calling you out.

              Explain: just HOW did Aaron “lend his credibility” to the “project?” Give specific confirmable details, and links.

              Are you referring to Brian Clark exploiting some comment that Aaron might have made years ago, while a (sadly) *customer* of “Teaching Sells?”

              If that’s it, then you are beyond ridiculous.

              Just to be clear for the benefit of newcomers here: my opinion of Brian Clark, Copyboggler, and “Teaching Sells” is NOT Sunday School approved.

              1. @Bindar Dundhat ::

                Dude relax … I think the Teaching Sells testimonial is a fair point. It’s front and center on the sales page … and it’s been the only testimonial on that page for years now. More people than can be counted on one hand have told me AWOL’s endorsement of Teaching Sells is what sucked them into Copybloggerland.

                He could get it taken down in an instant :: because he’s a bigger deal than Clark … and that’s how stupid shit like this works. It’s not dispositive of anything … but it’s certainly not “beyond ridiculous” either.

            6. Well, in that case – Aaron: how about asking Brian Clark to take that quote down (and time permitting, tell him to go fuck himself)?

              If he asks why, you can just quote me:

              “Because Bindar Dundhat thinks you are a total fucking asshole.”

              And if you should also run into Brian Clark’s ego (perhaps towering above the city, blocking the flow of water to the Hoover Dam, etc.), you can let it know that, too.

    3. @Wyrd,

      Travis Sago
      Pot Pie Girl
      Jamie Lewis
      Mark Ling
      Tiffany Dow
      Chris Carpenter
      Rosalind Gardner
      Norb Czufis

      I think one thing these entrepreneurs have in common is they were success stories on the Internet in either product development and/or affiliate marketing before writing about it or teaching it, therefore there is no “fraud”

      This is very important.

      Are you real? Or are you a recent cornell graduate who bought a bunch of already running sites off Flippa with your daddy’s money.

      The “gurus” in the list are very ethical, keep their prices extremely affordable and do not upsell you to death at all. Travis Sago in fact made his money doing article marketing and when he came out with his course the ENTIRE course was free of charge. He could afford to do this because he makes tons of money with article marketing.

      It is important not to get caught up too much on labels and how a human being might refer to himself at any given moment, rather than what he actually does.

      Also, some of these guys used pen names for the first few years in a niche like cooking or something, and use their real name when teaching after really genuinely doing awesome stuff, so when you research their real name, all you get is the teaching and you assume that teaching marketing or selling marketing products is all they do to make their money.

      For instance, pot pie girl. She teaches affiliate marketing, sure. I think her book is $19 if Im not mistaken. “Pot pie girl” is her name from her cooking site where she made a lot of money prior to teaching marketing.

      I have also noticed SD speak with some of these guys and gals and he seems to get along with them for the most part if Im not mistaken.

      1. @Johnny James ::

        You are barely competent to speak for yourself … so don’t be speaking for me.

        My full list is in the post.

        If you want to continue making reference to your “success” online … then paste in links to your sites. Otherwise I’m going to kindly ask you to shut the fuck up about it. Or maybe that wasn’t kindly.

        1. @SD,

          Perhaps the gentleman in question *has* found a way to make money online. Because I would gladly pay him to fuck the fuck off…

          Et voilà, he’s made money online.

      2. @Johnny James, It’s true about mr. Lewis because first he made and sold his Make Dirty Movies With Any Girl You Want product with the The Angus Maximus “Getinthepants” System…

        and then only after he made it did he make the course with the “PROVEN, SHORTCUT METHOD TO GET LAID WITH ANY GIRL(S) & MAKE TONS OF MONEY FROM IT … GUARANTEED” which included “The Official “How To Make Her Do Porn” eCourse”

        And he reminds us about how he did the product for real first by making dirty movies with “400 different girls” here:

        So it’s good that he tests out his ideas before he makes people make money with them.

      3. @Johnny James, <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060617100810/http://www.bangflick.com/&quot; target='new'.This is the money-maker you can do from the The Angus Maximus "Getinthepants" System where you can learn about:

        “UNLOCK the 6 hidden avenues that you can market your movies entirely FREE and make astonishing high-margin profits day-in, day-out EFFORTLESSLY. Cash in on this multi-billion dollar industry. I’ll show you my personal blueprint on how to earn hundreds a day with 30 minutes of work. “

          1. @Jack,

            Yes, pretty funny stuff as he does parody. He is the bomb! He also has done alot of parodies of “get rich quick” and “get revenge on your ex” similar to the onion which was hilarious stuff as well. Jamie Lewis also invented Sonicproducer.



            Sure thing, I suppose lets start with Travis Sago. http://www.bummarketingmethod.com/

            Now that has always been free. Again, the guy is not apart of any syndicate and doesn’t upsell you. I do have an open mind and if you can point out something that would educate me, that would be great and thanks.

            My question to you is what exactly is the problem with those marketers. Especially if Doctor Mario takes comedy videos literally. Is this what is going on here when assessing the cover of a book? (Or a sales page)

            1. @Johnny James, OK. In addition to realizing how incredibly stupid and gullible and scammy you must be, I can assume a few things from the comment you made:

              1. You understand that the video you call parody WAS used on his sales page for making dirty movies to make money.
              2. The making dirty movies to make money was a product sold down through Mike Filsaime’s PayDotCom
              3. The product was not supposed to be a parody…it was a real sales letter for a real product sold through PayDotCom.

            2. @Johnny James, It’s amazing how to make nearly $200/day using the http://getpaidtodraw.com/ ideas from mr. Lewis talking about thousand-dollar checks in one day and also little hundred-dollar payments each day:


              And then it sells for $5,000 on the Flippa site:
              https://flippa.com/140036-established-money-making-website-going-cheap-only-5k where it says the site made mostly $200/month.

              I think maybe he should have paid an artist over in the phillipines to make the drawings to get paid for and then split all the big money with them instead of making the $200/month site. Pretty much sure that makes me a financial genius for figuring that one out.

            3. @Johnny James,

              You do understand, presumably, that almost all current ‘internet sales tactics’ were originally honed in the early days of the porn-online business?

              …and that is still where the most money that makes up todays absurd ‘internet wealth claims’ was/is coming from?

              I too have a cooking site, under a pseudonym, that ‘provided the foundation of my mega-fortune’
              (but it is…. whisper…. a front for the real money-maker where I film sexual torture and death for your viewing pleasure–for a small monthly subscription of course)

              Cupcakes, who knew there were such riches to be mined in that itchy nitch?
              Well, obviously Belcher cottoned on real quick with his discovery of the fortune-making potential of the humble hot-dog.

            4. @Johnny James,

              Congratulations, your idiotic comments defending this Sonic Producer guy got me to stop lurking and leave a comment.

              How purposefully obtuse can you be? You use the fact that a guy ranks well on Google for the term “making beats” to push his shitty-ass software means that he isn’t a bottom-feeding scammer.

              Let’s lay this out one by one:

              The guy pays someone to make a warmed-over version of Audacity with some shitty built-in beats and sells it for $30 to some poor saps that he’s convinced “can become real music pros” — you know, despite the fact that they can’t, they won’t with his software, Garage Band is free a d 10x better, etc.

              He also bundles shitty-ass ringtones and MP3s together for $30 — again with the added benefit of saying “hey, I’ll show you how you too can make millions selling your own awesome (read: shitastic) beats.

              He happens to rank well on Google, probably because he stuff keywords out his ass.

              Oh, and for good measure, he has some shitty YouTube videos where his affiliates uprank stuff and leave comments. If we’re judging quality by YouTube comments now, you need to stop arguing.

              Even if we assume the guy isn’t a low-life scum-sucking scammer (which Lanna and Dr. Mario and Wyrd have proven that he is), the guy still isn’t selling anything of quality. Just because it isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it isn’t a crappy product.

              Moreover, you argue:

              “Teaching how to rank on ezine articles for $30.00 with examples of your work should be outlawed?”

              Yeah, I don’t think anyone is saying this should be outlawed, but I will say that people that teach how to rank on ezine articles for $30 are scammers, are lame and are leeches on man kind. I’m saying using ezine for anything proves you have no talent and nothing to offer the world. I’m saying that people with REAL talent have a hard enough time getting noticed and that when you start calling people who put their stuff on ezine are SEO scammers and are offering nothing of value.

              Right. I’m going to go to ezinearticles to get my information. Right.

              See, I’m actually a professional online journalist. I have a real job at a real publication with real health care, real paid vacation and real job security. I’m not a millionaire by any means, but I make nearly six figures a year writing actual content. Something tells me the effort I put into my work (and I work my ass off) is still less than what would be required to make even 1/4 of my salary doing ezine shit.

              But hey, keep drinking the MMO and MLM kool-aid.

            5. @Christina,


              I was referring to his success with beats365 which he started in 2004, he then created sonicproducer 4 years later in 2008 after dominating the hip hop beats industry because he sold HUNDREDS of beats for $30.00 while all the other beat makers sold $50 EACH BEAT.

              Everyone in the marketing space knows that he was a musician who did music for commercials on TV.

              He’s made it public hundreds of times. This is what you do, you take what you know and you go into business for yourself.

              He took his enormous sound catalog with original compositions and published them in 2004 called Beats365. it was featured all over the net and magazines because of the success.

              And to further destroy your argument, he’s like robin hood with everything he does. As he said, and as you can see on the site, he sells each MP3 for $0.02.

              Thats $30 for hundreds of them!

              His secret and what he teaches is to provide more value than the market.

              He has previews of them on his site so people know what they are getting.

              “Ringtones.” Where did you get that?

              NO WHERE did I say ringtones, except as an example and no where in this thread.

              The quote from the clickbank blog was in regards to his first million dollar website, beats365.

              You are full of it.

              I can’t believe I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt.

              Where did you get that he paid someone to redo Audacity?

              Is this what you guys do here is just blatantly lie?

              And how long do you think you will have your job? You might not have it tomorrow.

              Remember that someone, a human being incorporated at one time and built the company you work for.

              Your a dime a dozen and you are expendable.

              1. @Johnny James ::

                How many times are you going to pretend to storm off … and then not storm off? Huh Captain Ignorance?

                Go back to masturbating already.

                Your first comment here told me everything I needed to know about you. You’re a half-stupid regular reader who knows Kimoto but not Naomi? No. Never mentioned Kyle … but Naomi is an entire act of the play.

                Not only are you stupid and useless … but you are disingenuously posturing.

                So show me your successful money making sites … or fuck the fuck off.

            6. @SD,

              Hey SD, sorry dude. If Naomi is on the same plain as Kimoto, I would definitely support you on that and even help spread the word. I found the transcript but it sounds as if she is just a low level fake, not a high level psycho like Raygoza or Kimoto.

              I also would not charge Zimmerman with Murder 2, I felt it was Negligent homicide because of the pursuit.

              It’s that type of thing.

              Thanks for your time.

            7. @SD,

              No problem SD! And thanks for letting me “troll” if that’s what you call it.

              I didn’t mean to. If it’s any difference I do like to debate and try not to lose my temper.

              Thanks for having me around and Ill read some more of YOUR stuff. You make me a believer. I however still feel there is a massive difference between the guys you mostly talk about and JL, Ty Choen and Tiffany Dow. Also, “Twinkles” has to be careful that he doesnt get to conceded after his success with his music. Thats the thing, he is so humble and does that “verge” coaching for $3.00 an hour on CB so you can refund his actual hands on work from the class. It’s weird how giving he is.

              Ok! Sorry and Ill comment only in agreement from now on.

              Thanks again.

            1. @Doctor Mario,

              This is him making beats with the software he built:


              This is him using an M3:


              Note there are 68,891 views, 208 comments, mostly all positive and a very high ratio of likes.

              Anyone with a brain can see he is not just “using onboard sounds.”


              I also see this comment:

              paid for the subscription to your beats365.com website a few years ago when I started a studio club for inner city youth at my school. Now other students have also subscribed and realized their dreams of making quality music can come true.

          2. @Jack,

            Wow, real scam!


            Not. lol


            I think the guy chose his niche was music a long time ago and those are pretty insignificant comedy videos or at the best maybe a case study or something for a student.

            1. @Doctor Mario,

              Ok well I am done here. It is obvious that you and friends are anti-intellectual property all together.


              Affiliate programs are legal. Almost every company online has one starting with Amazon. Itunes has one.

              In your ideal world, Intellectual property has no value.

              So when a musician like Jamie Lewis sells 1000 beats for 2 cents each with beats365 or a music software with sounds and beats for $29 he is guilty of what? because affiliates promote it?

              Guess what.

              BestBuy, one of the companies on that “ethical company” list has an affiliate program. They also have a ton of complaints and their service absolutely sucks. That Ceo is a jerk to just sit back all day while he pays people only $7 an hour.

              Your argument is ridiculous.

              Good night.

            2. @Johnny James, To be fair I think it has to be that the fake-seo-screenshot idea made for the Miracle-Profits sales page must be the funny and hilarious parody again.

            3. @Jack,

              I apologize–you’re right, it is an ad. It seems Google uses less demarcation to delineate between the ads and the non-ads than it did way back before I cruised with ad-block on almost all the time. It used to be that all the ads had a clearly marked box around them and the text “Sponsored Link” next to it.

              Then again, “organic” used to just mean “Of, relating to, or derived from and organism.”

              If I tell Google one of the ads tied to “make money online” is flagged as a scam by my web filter, do you think they’ll stop taking that client’s money?

              Probably instead they would just shrug and think “well, if someone is searching for that, then what do they expect?”

              Is there any way to estimate or even guess how much of Google’s overall revenue comes from ads?

              If so, is there any way to estimate or guess how much of that ad revenue comes from ads for obvious scams?

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            4. @Johnny James, It seems like you and mr. Lewis could be some sort of twins when I saw you told us about:

              “And if it matters, aside from how I made my MiLiOnS I do teach a workshop and the methods I am asked to cover by my students is product creation, software creation, app creation, audio & video creation, Photoshop, HTML, Youtube and Affiliate management.”

            5. @Johnny James, I found out about that you must be the biggest Jame Lewis fan found about to webworld to make-model your name from his pseudo-name Jamie James sometimes he uses.

              1. @Jack ::

                Would explain him coming in here talking about Kimoto & Raygoza … posering like a real reader but citing only suckholes from The Verge article where Lewis had made a lame appearance. D-bags only read about themselves.

                Also explains him name dropping Ivy Capital in the convo … which only a certain type of insider knows about.

                So what of it @Jamie Lewis? Have you lost your goddamn mind?

                Gosh that would be funny.

          3. @Jack,

            Wow, these are pretty good videos:



            Hundreds of videos of him playing music and selling it.

            1. @Johnny James :: You are an idiot.

              The only reason Jamie Lewis can make decent sounding music in those videos on Youtube is because he’s using a Korg M3 (and its onboard sounds). The M3 costs around $1500 … ~30x the cost of his fake-ass-Fruity-Loops “software” … which, btw, has nothing to do with those sounds you are hearing.

              Those “positive” SonicProducer reviews on Google are typical IM-affiliate-scammer “reviews” … where they have a non-disclosed financial relationship with the product provider. Those “reviewers” get paid if you click thru & buy that “software” thru their affiliate site (a fact which they don’t openly disclose) … so obviously their opinion is trustworthy & unbiased, right?

              Actually, no. That is not only a scam … it is illegal.

              But good job picking your “legit marketers” examples n00b.

              Since you mentioned me (by accident), I just now took the time to read all the nonsense you were writing, and I would unequivocally say every lame-o marketing “guru” you named above is a 100% total bullshit scam.

              You are obviously in the scam cult yourself to even think that crapola is in any way, shape, or form related to actual business.

              Also, the fact that you think your continued idiocy is still an LOLing matter is really the nail in your brain’s coffin … obviously, you are brain-dead, and as such, deserve no more time wasted by me (or anyone) reading the diarrhea you are spewing in digital-commentary-form.

              Please continue circle-jerking your pals in unicorn-land and layoff the comments here.

              I do hope you buy everything that is ever hawked by those “entrepreneurs” you so admire, tho. I’m sure that will work out for you grrrrrreat!

              Your pal,

              @Doctor Mario

            2. @Doctor Mario,

              Yes I know he is using an M3, and he fucking rocks at making beats with that or with the software he built LOL

              I hate to break it to you but an M3 and Sonicproducer are two different things.

              If you had watched those videos you would see him actually using his sonicproducer software LIVE so it’s kinda hard to brand it a scam because it seems to work pretty good.

              So what was your point about $1500? Were you saying he sells his software by showing an M3 demo and saying the actual physical keyboard is in the software? LOL

              What are you talking about? And yes, I am aware of the affiliate disclaimer laws.

              When you can do a search for sonicproducer in youtube and see all the people playing with it and the good reviews since it is so affordable, an argument that it is a scam is insane.

            3. @Johnny James,

              I’m a little confused about what Dr. Mario’s saying, too. Are you saying we’re seeing him put stuff on the screen, but he’s actually playing the music on the Korg?

              ‘Cause at first I thought you were saying this was just a sequencer that output a MIDI file without specific samples attached, and that we were hearing the MIDI file as executed by the Korg with its onboard sounds. Or that Sonic Producer’s samples sucked, and it only sounded okay because we’re hearing Korg’s samples.

              But then I saw where:

              Download your Beats as MP3 or High Def Studio Quality 44.1K WAV FILE!!

              No MIDIs? How do you integrate this with ProTools?!

              Also, another question: Does the Sonic Producer always produce that buzz I hear in the video?

            4. @Lanna,

              Sonicproducer is software that makes beats and you use it with your mouse as seen in that video.

              I do not know if it is midi capable. I do see it is $29.95 and that is pretty affordable for what I see it doing there no?

              The issue was that in that “scarface” video where he plays the drums with one hand, that was a separate method to make music, and Doctor Mario had told me:

              “Your an idiot, the only way he can make music like that is because the M3 does it for him” or something along those lines.

            5. @Johnny James :: Point me to one link of someone using Sonic Producer / positively reviewing Sonic Producer that isn’t either…

              (a) Put out by Mr. lewis himself
              (b) Pointing an affiliate link to the software

              It’s not like Sonic Producer is the only player in the ~$30 range … there is also DubTurbo & MAGIX …

              However, there are also plenty of 100% FREE (and open source) alternatives with at least as many features, better support, and better (IMO) interface.

              So, taking something that is free / open source, then lightly adjusting it, then clogging up the web with scam-affiliate marketing, fake-reviews, spam-sites, etc … and using that as a reason to justify charging $30…

              … then you coming here pointing to that as an example of a “good” marketer … well, your n00bness is only further proven. Thanks.

            6. @Johnny James,

              “software that makes beats”
              But that’s not really a product category, is it? It’s either a sequencer or it’s not. I mean, it’s not a vocoder.

              “you use it with your mouse”
              It doesn’t work with a USB controller?

              “I do see it is $29.95 and that is pretty affordable for what I see it doing there no?”
              GarageBand was free with my MacBook, and it does the same thing. It even connects with a USB controller so I don’t have to mouse around everything. Honestly, for about the same price you can get a Casio keyboard that does all this and more. And you pay it once and don’t have to be online to use it.

              “a separate method to make music”
              Yeah, so the M3 does sequencing, too. And it’s built on the OASYS platform. So you’re saying that Jamie Lewis has a physical sequencing gizmo, from Korg, using technology that originally sold for $22,000 a pop, and he felt the need to rebuild FL Studio as a SAAS product?

              Also, LOL, “twinkles”! I think Twinkles means orchestra bells there.

            7. @Doctor Mario,


              and tons of other ones.

              So what if “Mr Lewis” uploaded a video of him making music.

              You were the one who initially branded it a scam before watching the video DEMO which proves it works. You even said yourself “THE ONLY REASON HE CAN MAKE DECENT SOUNDING MUSIC” Well he makes decent sounding music in both videos, so I guess that is the end of this debate.

              Of course affiliate links will overtake some random person uploading his video to youtube. An affiliate has more incentive to promote his video that he uploads, and a the user will probably sell the beat or the music. But that isn’t really the case, there are tons of videos of random people using that, DubTurbo and SonicProducer V2 from what I see.

              The point being, he is using it right in front of you.

              : : Really?

              DubTurbo is owned by Norb Czufis, the software is very similar:


              Is this seriously what you guys do here? If you are being serious, and not just trying to prove me wrong for the sake of it, just say so and I might have to unfortunately disregard everything I have read here as being ridiculous and I will leave you guys amongst yourselves.

            8. @Lanna,


              “software that makes beats”

              I think you are being nit picky here. lol

              “It doesn’t work with a USB controller?”

              Again, I am not sure if it does or doesn’t.

              Your Value example of Garageband was also interesting since:


              Looks like those people are dirty scammers too.

              Selling separate plug ins for $60.00, guides and stuff when the software came free with a laptop??? How dare they.

              Your last comment does not make any sense at all.

              Thanks for the debate and good night.

            9. @Johnny James :: n00btastic!

              That video you posted includes a *broken* affiliate link (http://SonicProducerSoftware.org)! Good job.

              Like I said, post me ONE video of someone using that software who is NOT also trying to promote it as an affiliate.

              Like you say, yes, sure, it “works” — a little worse than free open source software — but whatever.

              The point is, it is a pyramid scheme. The only reason people buy it, use it, and “review” it is because they are trying to make money by selling it.

              The only reason we are putting any effort to “prove you wrong” is because you chose this example as a good “entrepreneur’s” business. It is not even close.

              It’s obvious you can’t see that. So, it’s obvious you are an idiot and/or duped into the pyramid/MLM/MMO/IM/Scamworld of Unicorn-moneyz.

              That is all.

            10. @Johnny James,

              My last comment referred to the video YOU posted, wherein Twinkles says, “Let’s add some twinkles” and then turns on an orchestra bell sound. I think he also says “channels” instead of “tracks” in that video bunch of times.

              OK, I had to go through Twinkles’ home page piece by piece to give it the dressing-down it deserves. (Yes, Johnny, we look critically at various products and services here.)

              First, the unicorn bullshit the regulars here will recognize.

              You can make money with our step-by-step system!

              We will show you STEP by STEP how to SELL YOUR BEATS and market yourself so you can make SERIOUS Money!

              You don’t need to know anything about anything. The zero-to-hero testimonial:

              I had no idea what I was doing when I first started making music, but thanks to their instructional videos on the site I was on my way to making my own beats in no time.

              I haven’t had any professional or financial success, but it’s still awesome:

              A year later I am still using this software and am truly amazed at how it has been consistently improved beyond expectations.

              Imaginary prices $399 and $199 are crossed out. Now only $34.99!

              Don’t worry if you’re suicidal and homeless. There’s a special page to help you:

              You can also purchase . . . with PayPal . . . even if you are broke, homeless, sick or depressed . . . [and] do not have a Bank Account.

              Remember, it’s just like paying college tuition:

              …INVEST in yourself….
              . . .
              I want to Jump Start my Music Career
              . . .
              I wanna Make Killer High Def Quality Beats and be taken SERIOUSLY by Professional Producers!!

              Awesome return policy:

              We include an industry leading 60 DAY MONEY BACK SATISFACTION GUARANTEE!

              That’s actually a terrible ClickBank return policy:

              ClickBank will, at its discretion, allow for the return or replacement of any defective product within 60 days from the date of purchase.

              Alots of money romping and playing and making money online:

              You can also make alot of money online nowadays, but you need AT LEAST a Bank Account and/or a PayPal account first.

              You’re not buying a product, per se; you’re joining a cult or something:

              Join Now!

              Product support will be provided by other users/members/scam victims:

              You’ll have access to an exclusive Members area that’s JAM PACKED with everything you need!

              We are fake-experts at one thing, so we are now fake-experts at all things:

              If you have any financial questions at all, email me

              Now a few audio nerd things I noticed.

              Why’s there a live-sound bass bin in the logo? This is studio audio.

              or Studio Quality WAV!!
              . . .
              High Def Studio Quality 44.1K WAV FILE!!

              Uh, no, not really. 44.1K is generally termed “CD quality.” “High Def” sampling rates start at 96k and go up to 192k. “Studio Quality” is at least 48k. You want your mastering engineer to have some leeway when he or she compresses it down to 44.1k.

              16 Track Sequencer

              Really? GarageBand, which comes free with Macs, lets me put more tracks in their sequencer than that! As for value, I don’t need any of the extra sample plugins or training for GarageBand. It just works.

              Full 4 Octave Keyboard

              “make MASTERING the 4 Octave Keyboard a BREEZE!!”
              I really don’t know what’s meant by “Full” here. I would consider a “Full” keyboard to mean 88 keys, which is 7 and one third octaves. The Suzuki method teaches little tiny children how to master the 7-and-a-third octave keyboard. I think someone old enough to have a credit card can “master” the “4 octave keyboard” pretty easily.

              16 Track Volume Controls

              I think Twinkles means “faders” here. Also, no pan pots?

              12 Programmable Drum Pads

              Ah, but they’re on the screen, so you don’t have any touch-sensitivity like with a drum pad USB controller or even, ahem, the $60-and-up Casio keyboards.

              This is a video Professional Studios who charge THOUSANDS do NOT want you to see!
              . . .
              You’ll get your very own personal MUSIC PRODUCTION MACHINE with all the bells, Whistles and cutting edge performance you’ll find in a professional studio…OPEN 24/7 for you to be pounding out beat after beat! CRAZY!!

              Where to start? Professional studios are not in the business of “making beats.” They’re making full-fledged songs and albums. Chicago studios with impressive client lists are charging $50 a hour or $400 a day. If you have your shit together, you can get a whole album mixed and mastered for under $1,000.

              (Twinkles seems like a D-teamer, so I’ve specifically not used his name or his frauduct’s name.)

            11. @Johnny James, It was nice of Jamie Lewis to educate tryggvie with the Attorney-threat-letter:

              “Hey is that the same MattB from Ewealth? The last email I got from you was an apology in 2007. What happened? Sue, I have a feeling that the story that her daughter Corkie was “run over” was BS. This is after seeing the refund request which was for an entirely different reason altogether. Shame on you for that, I actually believed it as well as the customer service people. And yes I am a real person. Thanks. Tryg, you got the letter from our attorney? As long as you have affiliate links you are in violation bud. Take them off and youll be fine. Make money off my name and Its on. As for my customers, let me know if you guys need anything, im pretty hands on.

              I don’t know about if he means affiliate links on the site at all. I guess he went about to the Mike Filsaime lawsuit-fun school.

              I guess he forgot about sending the money-threat-letter to the man who made this video claiming mr. Lewis is using fake-seo-screenshot-tricks (from 2’25” to 5’00”)

            12. @Jack,

              I thought you were onto something until 4:59 in that video.

              First off, the guy doing the video has no credibility as he says “I like to find good offers for my list” as he is an affiliate.

              You can see the article is indeed ranking #1 when he does the search but he clicks on the second result and states the second result is his article. LOL

              Regarding the lawyer letter, Im pretty good with details and I can see very clearly:

              “As long as you have affiliate links you are in violation bud. Take them off and you’ll be fine.”

              Ok so it looks like the guy was violating the terms of his affiliate program!

              You initially began talking about this particular guy and seem to really have a beef with him. I guess because he does comedy videos, article marketing and built beats365 and sonicproducer and did well with them.

              Good luck to you and everyone else. Thanks for your time.

            13. @Lanna,

              It’s sort of been said already, multiple times, but, I wanna say it again anyway:

              You write some of the best comments.

              Scammy sales page selling some frauduct price? *shrug* Who cares.

              @Lanna’s point-by-point dissection of said scammy page: Priceless.

              There are some things money can buy. For everything else, there’s sarcasm.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            14. @Jack,

              LOL! Your a funny guy.



              So Rosetta Stone, $500.00 software.

              Yay or nay? I have a feeling from what you mentioned about the sonicproducer sales page (Which “mr lewis” did not write since he sold the site in 2010, and the new owner released V2.0, rather you mistakenly used it as an example of his character) it will be a big fat HELL NO.

              So hell no to Rosetta Stone and Hell no to Final Cut Pro. ($1000 and up)

              Also, no to Itunes.


              I saw this on the Clickbank blog:

              “My original plan,” he explains “was to sell each MP3 for $5.” It soon became clear, however, that his plan wasn’t working. He quickly “adopted the model that Napster used, where you get a whole package.” When he started selling bundles of 500 MP3’s for $30, Lewis soon realized he had found a profitable business model. “It just took off,” he says of his online music business. Providing so much value was a bold move, given that Lewis’s competition was selling each MP3 for $50 each.

              Do you see that his most successful site ever was a collection of his music?

              Do you see what I am saying? Or are you a fever induced cartoon nightmare.

              I also would like to add Mr Ty Cohen to the list of marketer guys who do it right.

              And I guess my final question would be in your ideal world, no one is to be paid for their work?

              You cannot sell your music or audio?

              What about audio books?

              Teaching how to rank on ezine articles for $30.00 with examples of your work should be outlawed?

              The idea is becoming clearer. Heck you may make me a believer yet.

              However, someone with as much talent as the people I have shown you do not deserve to be lumped in with scammers like Raygoza and Steven Pierce. There is no point to your wide sawed off shotgun style output. Go sniper and you will get alot more done here.

              When you have made hundreds of thousands of dollars doing music and music lessons that is a bit different than Raygoza. lol

              There is nothing wrong with a “join” page that explains the “good deal”

            15. @Johnny James, I also want to thank you for giving me more of the memories of my grandma like the saying she told me about, “Jack, never let the facts get in the way of finding the truth.”

            16. @Johnny James,

              As Dr. Mario said, you pointed us toward Sonic Producer as an example of Twinkles work, so don’t blame us for doing as we were told and looking there.

              I think I’ve sold a couple copies of Final Cut Pro and collected my commission on them, so I’d be a total hypocrite to say it’s a scam.

              The rest of what you’re saying seems to be a giant strawman, so let’s just say I am a fever induced cartoon nightmare (and also a gay man wearing a female sock puppet).

            17. @Lanna,

              Im not blaming you for looking there, it’s just weird how you would try to knock a music software created by a guy who dominated the “hip hop beats” search on Google for 4 years straight with his own music.

              I mean isn’t the whole theme here that people sell less quality than that for $2000?

              And then you admitting that you are an affiliate I am again at a loss.

              Were talking $30.00 and it’s one of the biggest results for “make beats”

              Weird, that’s all. As in (WEIRD!)

            18. @Johnny James,

              Nope, I’ve never done any affiliate marketing. The fact that I say “commission” and you jump straight to affiliate marketing shows how sucked into MMO you are.

            19. @Lanna,

              Yes, you had joined the affiliate program for Apple if you received a commission.

              This makes you an affiliate for apple. Obviously, this has nothing to do with MMO.

              Unless you stood at a highway off ramp with a sign hanging from your neck selling video editing, I would say you are an affiliate marketer who is a little confused.

            20. @Jack,

              When I type `make money online’ into Google, when I’m not logged in to Google, the second result “surveymoneymachines.com” is blocked by the filter at work and categorized as “Scam/Questionable/Illegal”.

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            21. @Wyrd,

              Surveys are a scam. I learned this the hard way in 2004.

              Once you sign up, they have you register for hundreds of “survey offers” that are paid by major companies, pepsico, etc.

              This is what they instruct you to do.

              Then after you sign up (it takes a few days)

              You start to try to fill out surveys for money.

              Half of the surveys disqualify you after you start. If you are lucky you might make $7.00 an hour.

              Similar to working at Mc Donalds or the “posh” lifestyle of $25,000 a year.

            22. @Johnny James,

              Unless you stood at a highway off ramp with a sign hanging from your neck selling video editing

              Well, it was near a highway off ramp, but it was inside a building, and the thing hanging from my neck said “Technology Sales Manager” and had keys to about $200k of software and hardware attached to it.

              You can’t make money online. You can make money selling video editing software in retail stores. (But not a lot. Independent retailers’ margins on Apple products are super-slim.)

      4. @Johnny James, Mark Ling recommends false testimonials, and he promoted as an ‘example’ of making money online a website that tells users how to extend the life of bettafish – the site supposedly making $400 a month! As if. And that was the only example he ever came up with. On the back of that, he rips of thousands of people, by selling a process that will ‘teach’ them how to be similarily ‘successful’.

        More on that discussion here: http://www.affilorama.com/forum/affiliate-hangout/does-affilorama-really-work-t14056.html

        In that discussion, you can spot the liar versus the cynic versus the conned. There are no other participators.

        The IM industry looks for people in vulnerable situations – or in Mark Ling’s words: ‘Find people with a desperate need.’ – and then takes them to somewhere worse.

        With your list – were you just trying to expose your competition to the light of truth? Or are you one of the list? – in which case, not very clever…

    4. @Wyrd, Actually, there is no ‘gauntlet of challenge.’ The post is all-inclusive. SD has been investigating for years now. His post contains zero names because, well, there really are zero names. Trying to fill in those blanks would be like saying, “Which people are operating honestly in the scam industry?”

      1. @Churchill’s Pocket Watch,

        Yes, I see that now. My bad. But I did mention at the start that “I’m not @SD and I don’t speak with his voice and this is just my opinion”.

        Still it’s produced some interesting debate, fun sarcasm, and more information about “make beats” than I could ever hope to absorb.

        But it’s not fair to say “zero”. Don’t forget about “{awkward crickets}” the Noble Internet Marketing Turtle of Truth!

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

    5. @Wyrd, I’ve been reading Glen Allsopp of ViperChill.com for about 2 years. All his entries on that blog seems to be for the most part reflections of his experiences building niche affiliate websites. The posts are usually pretty lengthily, and also only occur about once per month it seems. I believe he recently released a WP plug-in called “Optin Skin” which designs opt-in boxes for WordPress websites.

      I’ve never bought anything of his and never plan to, I just like interesting reads.

      What are your opinions, anyone?

      1. @Rootsmash, http://www.viperchill.com/backstage-pass/

        “I cringe at the term “internet marketer” as a way to define myself…”

        Glen is about as far from the people SD profiles as a person can get. He doesn’t do like the 3T crew and lace every piece of content with “if you want to do this right, you can buy this thing over here.”

        I don’t know about the products, but I like the site.

        1. @MKR,

          Well if you look at the page below, he recommends Copyblogger, Problogger, Ittybiz, Shoemoney, Tony Robbins and more.

          So you might have to re-evaluate your opinion and say that he’s much closer to the people Salty profiles than you previously thought.

          He even pays ND a great compliment:

          “Though I think I’m the only marketer in the world who can’t get on Naomi’s radar, I can’t doubt that I love her blog. I came across Naomi through Copyblogger and I love her unique, NSFW (not safe for work) approach to writing about marketing.”


          1. @Mark ::

            That’s strike one two three four five and six :: I’m not much of a baseball fan … but I think that’s more strikes than you get.

          2. @Mark, That’s unfortunate. The advice there is usually pretty good, but I couldn’t recommend someone who’s so deep in the tribe that they talk them up even when they don’t need to.

            That’s what irritates me about the whole thing. Some of the advice on their blogs isn’t bad, but it’s steeped in squeeze pages, harpoons and nets.

  3. Is there a reason why these offerings are priced $27, $47, $97, etc.? There must be some psychological thing, because they are useless otherwise.

    1. @mirele,

      It’s interesting, isn’t it? I’ve only been following the IM-MMO subject in a non-mark capacity since roughly this time last year. I haven’t any gurus espouse on just exactly what’s so special about that “7” at the end.

      Of course the more general notion–the part where it’s a little less than a full, even dollar figure (e.g. $30, $50, $100) is to make it look less than it is. That’s a classic sales/marketing thing that almost all stores do almost everywhere almost all the time since forever. almost.

      But why the “7”? Whose idea was that? I dunno. It’s kinda cool in a way though: it’s another one of those secret tells that lets you know you’re in Scam-world.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd,

        The ‘7’ comes from the early days of endless split-testing–two identical sites, one where the price ends in ‘9’, for example, and another where the price ends in any other number.

        Which one snags most buyers/sign-ups?

        The testers–and good marketers keep a very close eye on the test results–found that bored human beings dicking about online like the number ‘7’ and clicked on those offer prices more than any other. It works better, no other reason required.

        If you’re really bored you can get into the cultural and esoteric reasons why bored humans might like the numbers ‘3’ and ‘7’ more than any others. Those numbers feature heavily in gambling culture too, probably for the same reason of appeal to bored humans.

        1. @fried egg, And as Ed Nash found…it’s a necessary fact to know that every single offering’s price can be based on a split-test done for completely different offerings. Also, I found an alternative explanation floating about in my mind that most good marketers don’t just go about using 3’s & 7’s but know that they need to do more real testing not the fake 3, 7 lollipop-candy ideas.

          1. @Jack, Oh. Wait, when I went to actual read things about testing from Mr. Nash it seems he says all about the opposite of the magical 3 & 7 faker-folk.

            1. @Jack,

              Yeah, but any half-savvy person, good marketer or not, will accept that what worked well last time may not work well the next.

              Relying on acknowledged experts–good for a general principle to get you started but fuck-all use in any specific real life situation, the outcome of which has much more in common with the vagaries of gambling odds than with any step-by-step, painting-by-numbers blueprint for success in any field.

    2. @mirele,

      It evolved into the industry standard. Some smart people had looked into studies and found that it had done well. Everyone else just followed because it was easier. I believe that they should have done their own research and possible testing but that is too complicated for most time poor people.

      It´s almost becoming the norm in Kindle pricing to have an ebook at $2.99 http://www.teleread.com/paul-biba/the-value-of-ebooks-is-2-99-the-new-value/ What is driving the pricing trends there, though, is the cut that Amazon takes if your book is outside the 2.99-9.99 range.

      1. @Jade, (and all) —

        It was Ted Nicholas (a guy who a LOT of IMers follow) who pretty much laid out his own testing of the whole “price ending in 7” thing. The guy is responsible for several billion in sales from his copywriting, sold his own “How To Incorporate Your Business” company with his own copy, etc. He teaches split testing relentlessly and claims that’s how he built his own fortune with his businesses and copywriting…always testing everything and never stopping.

        Long/short of it: he’s reported that he has no reason why (though he does state some suppositions he has but not fact…) any price ending in seven always out-sold anything he priced differently. Since the guy has written copy for a lot of different industries (he’s NOT a “primarily IM guy”), and claims he’s tested it on billions of dollars’ worth of promotions and 7 always came out on top, anyone who followed Ted followed that.

        Funny thing is…he also always said “don’t just take that and run with it because you need to test always, too”

        The Kindle pricing thing, by the way, is both a matter of Amazon taking a much smaller cut of each sale in those price ranges **and** the fact that the Amazon Prime lending program pays commissions even on Kindle books that are loaned for free to a friend with a Kindle…but only if the book is priced in that price-range.

        1. @Head Honcho,

          Thanks for that :) I forgot about the Amazon prime thing. Was trying to emphasis that in IM, it´s usually a matter of following trends blindly rather then doing your own research.

          1. @Jade, …and in THAT point you’re absolutely right. A LOT of people do sadly seem to just mimic what “that guy over there” did without even knowing why.

            Seems to me this is how “B” and “C” team players get themselves in so much deeper. With patience and testing and the money they spent on goo-roo juice, they could have increased their odds of actually selling stuff that matters and making money doing it but…nah…that’s too much trouble.

            Which ‘splains, I think, @SDs feelings about the “B” team.

  4. I used to sell baseball cards in high school & when priced at $1 each (even if they were listed in the book at 25 cents to $4 each) there was a lot more sold since the price was simple & known upfront…very much low friction.

    In terms of ending on 7, I think it has to do in part with popular religions leading to an affinity for the #7 & it also being pitched as a lucky number.

    Pricing that is a round number at a higher pricepoint tends to signify quality, whereas the ending in 7 or 9 & going with a smaller number makes it feel like it is less than the slightly larger round number (there is a reason many sodas and such had a price stuck at 99 cents for a long lllllllllllllong time). And the people selling sugar water push way more product than just about any other marketers does.

    1. I think that says it all.

      Thanks, @Doctor Mario, and thank you, kid-zombie-who-likes-turtles. :-)

    2. @Doctor Mario, I don’t know why… But I can’t stop laughing at that video… It’s killin’ me!

      Furthermore… This is me considering the relevance of it within the context of it on this page and post.


      A hefty tip of the cap to you, good Dr.

      1. @Lanna,

        Have you tried under his other name, “Jiminy”?

        Failing that, just follow the sound of the whistling as he lets his conscience be his guide…

        1. @Dr Geek,

          If he’s letting his conscience be his guide, that’s probably why he’s not on Warrior Forum.

  5. Well, after just discovering that Salty Droid is himself a lawyer. Which is probably the biggest rip off artist industry in America, pillaging many for mega thousands in frivolous lawsuits, I now know he himself is not to be trusted.

  6. Brad Callen, with his iwriter website, seo elite and keyword elite products. He is an Internet marketer doing it right, fantastic products.

      1. @SD, What don’t you like about Brad’s products?

        They’ve helped me get high search rankings and make money online. Not sure I follow why you think my post was such a joke, and why you needed to be so rude about it.

        You could at least be a little nicer to your readers, sheez.

        Makes me scared to make a comment here that is anything but supportive of your opinions. If someone dare say something other than what you agree with, they get their head bitten off.

        1. @hmm ::

          What’s wrong with Brad Callen? Let’s count the bullshits together …

          1) Brunson’s boiler room

          … okay then … that’s enough counting to satisfy me. How about you? Or do you think I should go on counting after item one there?

          I’m sorry that you’re scared to comment here :: but I’m scared that the whole wide world is going to keep ignoring grannies getting their hearts gouged out by a bunch of out of control high school dropouts snorting adderall … so I guess we’re even on the being scared front.

          1. @SD, Brad doesn’t have a boiler room.

            I’m interested in why you think SEO Elite, Keyword Elite and/or Iwriter is bad. Or are those products ok, but you don’t like other marketers that he may have promoted in the past. I can’t even remember him ever promoting Russell, though he might have years ago before I bought any of his stuff.

            Russell is a different person from Brad. Russell doesn’t have a boiler room either, he used to offer private coaching (if that’s what you mean by boiler room) that he used to sell to people over the phone (which I agree was annoying to get that call), though he doesn’t have it anymore as he focuses now on teaching people how to set up local web businesses offering web services to private clients/businesses, and his teaching of info-marketing is limited to a couple of his lower priced products, but no 1 on 1 coaching available anymore.

            1. @hmm ::

              I hope you and Brad “fucking joke” Callen are very happy together doofus :: here go buy it from Perry Belcher …


              BTW :: since you told us about your make money online success … I guess we are going to be seeing some links to your sites? It’s kinda like one of the only rules around here :: that and don’t victim bash … oh and don’t be Ross Jeffries.

              Links … or slink away.

            2. @salty

              You are impossible to reason with. And I don’t see the point in your link, that is showing that someone else (not brad Callen) is affiliating to his product. People like me don’t show our links because we don’t want you and your wolf packs to start ringing us up on the phone terrorizing me and my family just because I have a different opinion to you. I know you mean well, as there is a lot if crap out there, but there is also a lot of good too as I would never have been successful online if I had had to figure it all out on my own. Out of interest, for an ecommerce store owner like me, if you think I should not be using SEOElite for seo, and Iwriter for article writing, then why should I not use those products in particular and what should I use instead? I use market samurai too, any reason why I should be avoiding that? Or are they good guys?

              1. @Hmm ::

                Are those links? Because they don’t look like links to me … and the other choice was slinking off.

            3. I make money on the interbutts. I wonder if Mr. Hmm would feel safer if I linked to what I make money from, so he can see that SD isn’t going to drive a lynch mob to everyone who makes money online.

              All from eBooks

              Why don’t I fear the lynch mob? Because it’s imaginary. SD is a simple, honest android trying to make the world a better place through acerbic exposés.

              There are some IM books in my collection, but they cover the one or two things in IM that you couldn’t get from a good book on business.

              One of those ebooks does have a recommendation for Problogger from before I realized what was going on. I’m about to push an update to remove that (takes 12-48 hours to appear).

            4. @sd, I guess that’s the lawyer in you avoiding my question by asking another.

              If I should not be using SEOElite and iwriter, then what makes those products bad? What should I use instead?

              1. @Hmm ::

                I don’t answer questions on demand for random losers straggling past :: my opinions are all here … if you want them you can fucking read them.

                But you’ve got no links {natch} … so you’re a liar cordially invited to shut your hole.

  7. In tribute to @JohnnyTroll :: @also waiting :: and in a less shitty way @JadeCraven …

    Any man who knows a thing
    Knows he knows not a damn, damn thing at all

    … and totally in the sick beats category …

      1. @also waiting ::

        Nope :: sorry charlie … but I don’t know shit about shit.

        I got questions … not answers.

        BTW :: thanks for calling me “pot” :: and “black” … maybe you’re finally starting to feel how much fucking hipper and better I am than your current slime gods.

  8. @sd I see you support Aaron Wall (as evidenced by you being interviewed by him and your lack of attacks on him when his name gets mentioned here).

    Just wanted to point out that his product is the biggest rip off I’ve spent money on this year. $300 a month for a site containing nothing but info that is readily available for free elsewhere, for software that is much worse than cheaper alternatives like seo elite and market samurai, and a so-so forum that hasn’t been as much help as the digital point forum (which is free).

    1. @Ash ::

      I don’t support Aaron Wall’s products :: I haven’t used them … I’m not in a position to judge their effectiveness … cause I couldn’t give a shit about SEO or any of the other search engine manipulative crap that people who aren’t fucking highlarious need to rely on to get traffic. If you are a tiny bizness without revenues :: I would most def recommend that you NOT buy anything of Aaron’s … even though I don’t know if it’s quality stuff or not. Because keeping it small and tight until you can actually afford stuff is what the webz is supposed to be about.

      Other hand :: I don’t write about crappy products … and I don’t care about them. My AppleTV works like shit … and it’s my third one … fucking ripoff … but not a SaltyDroid situation. I write about circling jerking cartels and hyper manipulative cult types. I don’t think Aaron participates in those. If I found out otherwise … my tone toward him would significantly change.

      2. “site containing nothing but info that is readily available for free elsewhere” … bullshit … that’s obviously bullshit. Cause I do read Aaron’s blog :: and it’s super sharp :: and mathish :: and has a sort of deep perspective that you can’t find other places on the web. I never could have understood Google’s role in the scams without the stuff I learned reading Aaron’s blog. I’m not the easily impressed sort of robot.

      3. I did that interview because people needed to hear Jason. After more than a year of watching Aaron :: I felt sure that he wouldn’t use my appearance to try and move product … or to try and imply my endorsement. Which he totally hasn’t done.

      1. @SD, its not bullshit, his blog (which is free) is considerably better than his paid product. I was talking about his $300 a month paid product

        1. @Ash ::

          It was bullshit. There’s lots of ways I could be a critical dick about SEOBook … but “this is vanilla stuff available everywhere” ain’t one of them. If you aren’t sophisticated enough to get that … then you certainly aren’t ready to be paying for anything on the web. At least wait until you’re not a total n00b before you start making big purchases.

          And like I just fucking said … I don’t care about crappy products. Did you get cult manipulated into buying an SEOBook membership? Were you promised that you’d be able to quickly achieve financial success simply by signing up for SEOBook? Were dozens and dozens of masterminded affiliates promoting the product simultaneously without disclosing their affiliations? Did Aaron sell your name on to a boiler room … or sell your name on to someone else who utilizes boiler rooms?

          Or you just bought something stupid that you didn’t need … because how is that my problem?

      2. @SD,

        Pretty sure we just got the condensed theory of the Salty Droid

        And like I just fucking said … I don’t care about crappy products. Did you get cult manipulated into buying an SEOBook membership? Were you promised that you’d be able to quickly achieve financial success simply by signing up for SEOBook? Were dozens and dozens of masterminded affiliates promoting the product simultaneously without disclosing their affiliations? Did Aaron sell your name on to a boiler room … or sell your name on to someone else who utilizes boiler rooms?

        1. @Sundog, Well there we have it then. He doesn’t care if the product is good or not. He only cares about whether lots of affiliates are promoting it (which I have received several emails promoting SEO book in my time, just not all at once in a single week), and whether or not there is a phone call offering private coaching.

          Many of the great products that I have purchased do not have a boiler room, no high ticket upsells, and are a LOT better than SEOBook.

          No it’s not your problem, if you want to keep shitting on respectable marketers who peddle great products, while turning a blind eye to rip offs, then you’re a total buffoon.

          1. @Ash, You’ve offered nothing but your (anonymous) opinion about a product, and there is no proof whatsoever of any nefariousness in the operation of Aaron’s business.

            On the other hand, there are plenty of known scammers still in need of attention, and not enough hours in the day.

            The truth is, your real agenda is actually the promotion of unicorns, and this is a no-unicorn zone.

          2. @Ash ::

            No it’s not your problem, if you want to keep shitting on respectable marketers who peddle great products, while turning a blind eye to rip offs, then you’re a total buffoon.

            Oh so your complaint wasn’t really about SEOBook then :: it was about me shitting on “respectable marketers” … pretty much the standard troll complaint.

            I’m so surprised … you really had me fooled there with your super stealthy obviousness.

            Good lying is all about internal consistency :: here read about the math and apply it to your life …


            … try and do better next time.

            1. @SD, the outrageous thing about Ash’s complaint was that anyone who is unhappy can cancel the same day or next day & ask for a refund and get it in full. A person only pays the full amount if they want to keep the subscription open for the full period. Cancel & send a refund request for the unused portion & you get it.

              The people who suggest having their site reviewed by people with a decade or more of experience should be free deserve what they pay for. Let me go call up my free doctor and lawyer and so on. No SEO doesn’t require a license, but having a broad-based perspective does take time + experience + sometimes eating some brutal losses that go well into 5 or 6 figures (hopefully never 7 though, as bankruptcy is #fail). :D

              Out of curiosity, I just searched our payment archives for the name “ash” and the only conversion we ever had for our community tied to that name was a person who took a free trial right when we launched it & canceled 2 months later WITHOUT being charged a cent. So are you lying about your name, the amount you spent, or did you use someone else’s credit card to pay the $300 there “ash”? I mean, I also looked up “ashley” too & that doesn’t show any hits in the last 14 months either.

              So you are either a liar, or you signed up under another name AND were too timid to ask for a refund & yet welcomed the opportunity to ANONYMOUSLY slag someone off on other sites.

              Speaking of those “higher quality products” you talk about created by people who (Salty mentioned) sell their customers into boiler rooms, one of the folks you highlighted also had their IP address come up as leaving rage hate comments on my blog & lying claiming I was delivering Trojans.
              Maybe you are that person? :D

              We intentionally have chose to use a 3rd party payment processor that makes refunds easy for consumers (Paypal offers the sellers like zero protection on virtual products/services). Other than when some douchebag from Vietnam stole a ton of credit cards and put about $20,000 worth of fraudulent orders through to try to get affiliate commissions (a little slice of hell & a waste of a day of my life) we have had a super low chargeback rate…so low that until that Vietnam guy did that crap Paypal wouldn’t even want to hold any reserves on chargebacks and would still allow us to withdraw 100% of what was in the account if we wanted to (though we always keep some buffer to ensure employees are paid & any misc. charges that come up are more than covered).

              (Since the Vietnam guy did that I refunded about 95% of the fraudulent charges that went through and was reverse charged on the other 5%ish because a few had to be reverse charged before I noticed the pattern of fraud that was going on & somehow Paypal was asleep at the wheel with their security features). Now even though I did all those refunds Paypal is still sitting on $20,000 for 6 months.

              Of course I could have noticed it sooner, but until you get chargebacks it is hard to be certain of fraud, especially given that they were rotating IP addresses & accounts & so on. I think Paypal should have noticed & called me about that BEFORE I started doing all the associated cancelations and refunds. I noticed the pattern when I was about to pay affiliates and something looked suspicious…then I had to track patterns among IP addresses, referrers, and all sorts of other bits of information to guestimate which conversions were scams. I had no less than 5 databases open at the same time to cross reference things & scrub out the fraud.

              My hit rate on the ones I canceled was 100% (nobody complained about me canceling their account out of the blue) and I couldn’t have missed more than a few (in terms of further reverse charges coming in). Funny thing is on one payment Paypal flagged it as suspicious and wouldn’t let me do anything (like refund it) while they were reviewing it. The damn payment got a reverse charge the next day & then Paypal said the payment was cleared & good to go. Another $20 reverse charge for the #fail.

              Some people who claim to dislike Salty for allegedly being full of hate BUT at least he is not an anonymous asshole.

  9. Hey Salty,

    Let’s be fair and list the top 11 to 15 also, ok. Here they are …. Most have a sexing home in Utah

    11 ……..
    12 …….
    13 ……..
    14 …….
    15 ……..

    Crickets are throwing a party now.

  10. It is quite apparently obvious based on reading through the posts here that @SD has some sort of mental issues. I pity his wife having to put up with this sort of crassness.

  11. @Dingod Look, I think we all know that Jason has some sort of problems based on how he carries himself and his tone, but that was very low of you. Mental issues are nothing to be ashamed of (and that’s not saying he definitely has mental issues, maybe he is just an angry aggressive type of person, that doesn’t mean he has mental issues).

    He is angry because he has been ripped off and he has seen others get ripped off.

    Lots of people like him are getting ripped off these days. Ok, maybe he isn’t all there, maybe he is, who knows. Either way, it’s not like these guys are qualifying who they are selling to.

      1. @Jack ::

        It’s funny how obvious piece of shit Brad Callen gets shilled for … then trolls start trying to attack me by attacking Aaron Wall {which makes no sense given the absolutism of my non endorsement policy} … then random proxyed anons start talking to each other pathetically about Jason’s mental health.


        Reminds me of when Aaron Wall said he no longer recommends SEO Elite …


        … and then he got a big troll storm full of shills and assholes … who it seemed … all turned out to be Brad Callen …


        But I’m sure it’s all just a coincidence … because surely even a fucking idiot like Brad Callen can understand how badly that silly game will end for him here.

  12. @dingod Who in society doesn’t have mental issues these days. We’re all stuck in the rate race here and are angry about it, and angry about the marketing tactics being employed online. It’s great we can have a voice, and Salty is a great voice for us.

    Yes he’s psycho aggressive, but I guess that’s just his personality type. At least he’s taking a stand and being himself.

  13. Wow, I never knew that about Brad. Why didn’t you link to this earlier rather than hurling psychotic abuse at me?

    I’m still going to use his software till I find something better as it has all my tracking for years in it now and has been very useful, though that kind of thing he did to mr wall is just plain nasty, not to mention stupid. I guess I can’t trust anyone.

    What about Jeff Johnson, he’s a good guy right? He has an upcoming launch and always seems to know his stuff. Or is that another case where I just am missing something?

  14. Oh wait, before you abuse me again, I just found your post on him. And that he’s part of some syndicate, I’ll watch your syndicate video that is on that page.

    1. @Hmm,

      The reason why it’s bad is because they can (and do) artificially rig the prices to whatever level they think they can get you to pay.

      If they were truly in competition with one another, then one of them would go and charge a super low price (like maybe $10) for the same sort of thing that the others are charging $500 or $5000 for.

      But, because it’s a syndicate they won’t do that. And even if one of them did, that person would find themselves ejected from the syndicate. So they wouldn’t be able to pull sales from all the other lists anymore, just from their list. The low price combined with the loss of syndicate connections would mean their profits (and therefore their fraud empire) would evaporate overnight.

      The most ironic part of the whole mess is that Frank I. Kern seems to have coined the term syndicate, but he doesn’t seem to know where it comes from or what it really means. It is actually not “french for trade union” but instead it has always been near-synonymous with “cartel” and a secret group that covertly fixes prices.

      The greatest trick they ever pulled was convincing throngs of people that this kind of behavior isn’t immoral, even as they fleece those same people for all they’re worth, and more, and still more.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Hmm ::

      Oh My Fraking God :: you haven’t read The Syndicate posts … and yet your in here recommending people and griefing me and testimoanilaizing about your suckcess? Is this the only post you’ve read? BECAUSE IT’S FUCKING BLANK!!!

      Wow, I never knew that about Brad. Why didn’t you link to this earlier rather than hurling psychotic abuse at me?

      Well :: let’s see … maybe it’s because I can’t tell you everything I know in one comment?

      Mother of Moses people are dumb!

      1. @SD,

        When I first came here, I thought you were excessively grumpy and more than a little impatient.

        How little I knew.

        Now I can’t believe how patient you manage to be.

        How you manage to cope with the dumb points made by newbies, trolls and even the odd thoughtless comment by those of us who should know better without blowing your motherboard is nothing less than a miracle of modern engineering.

    1. @namename ::

      That story really was “top drawer” … as they say in the land of the Queens.

      I’d do a post about it if it was embedable :: but it isn’t … so I guess they don’t want me talking about their content.

  15. @sd and all

    There’s something that I never really understood about this whole SEO mess… My understanding is that SEO kind of takes care of itself if you’re working hard, have a solid brand, and people are interested in what you do… But it takes hard work and long term commitment (and SD is a good example of that… No SEO involved, just a real community)

    If no one is interested in your brand… Gaming SEO doesn’t even make sense…

    Next, please enlighten me here….

    One of the con the IM people lie about (and I learned this reading SD) is saying: if you rank first on Goggle for a keyword, you’ll make money… HOW? Let’s say I rank first on the keyword Nike… So what?

    I don’t understand this unicorn reasoning… It doesn’t make agony sense to me…. Please explain.

    1. @Wide Eyes,

      The iPad wrote “agony” at the end… I guess it’s sticking with the whole IM genre

      1. @Wide Eyes, Depends on your monetization model – the lies-to-children version*: say you’re an Amazon affiliate, or a Wal*Mart affiliate and you blog about a specific Nike shoe, and happen to come up first on searches for that shoe model on Google** you can expect the bulk of Google traffic searching for that particular model Nike shoe to stop by your blog and then click through your affiliate link to buy the shoe earning you a commission. Google considers the affiliate an unnecessary step in the sales process and that’s a fair point for mass market brands, but for a lot of smaller, specialty niches and products the affiliates will be part of the branding strategy to generate market attention the company and brand couldn’t possibly afford to generate on their own or hire an agency to do for them.

        ‘Course, the affiliates are volunteering to become commission-only sales people and if the product owner doesn’t spend some resources on training them they’ll be nothing but trouble. In the interest of moving product they will probably violate FTC regs and in the right niches the FDA and the SEC regulations as well, and disclaiming responsibility for what your affiliates claim doesn’t work nearly as well as some people think it does. (Nor does deciding that working to help create actual branding for a real product is too much like work and instead form a cartel to sell Mass List Launch Control Formula Marketing 30.0, mostly thanks to a certain Droid)

        There’s a Mr. Aaron Wall who’ve got a whole site about the why and the how of SEO, if you want more than the lies-to-children version.

        Or you’re not an affiliate, but you have Adsense and earn a cent or fifty when someone clicks on the ad. But to make that pay more than a few cents a year you need traffic on the scale of the Droid, not merely what a hobby blogger can expect from his readership of 2. The con isn’t in saying that if you rank number 1 you’ll make money, the con lies in saying that it’s easy, that it can be done with the methods the IM guru teaches, or that it’s possible for an individual who knows jack shit about SEO to pick up Ryan Deiss’ frauduct about it and learn enough to rank for a keyword with any income potential at all.

        *lie-to-children: the example that is not actually true, but is aligned with reality in such a way that it prepares you to learn the real-but-complicated version.

        **this will not happen in real life, bear with me. The chances of some random joe schmoe blogger ranking for a product keyword without a hell of a lot more work than J. Guru lets on is somewhere north of the chance of Mighty Chthulu arising in the Pacific tomorrow.

    2. @Wide Eyes,

      No, SEO doesn’t magically happen. In my pro bono work for nonprofits, I’ve seen websites run by very marketing-savvy and media-savvy people, but those people were in their 50s, 60s and 70s and weren’t Web- or search engine-savvy, so they weren’t doing basic SEO and their nonprofits weren’t being found on the Web. Once I came in and explained, OK, here’s how to do a Google AdWords keyword search, here’s where the page’s Title shows up on the Google search engine results page, and so forth, then they got it. Now they’re using keywords, Titles, Descriptions, etc., and now it’s easier for people to find these nonprofits on the Web.

      And SD is definitely using SEO. @SD could be making up smart-ass titles, but he’s got “Internet Marketers” and “Prosper” in the titles, and he’s filling the WordPress categories with names.

      So, ranking first for Nike. Some ways to monetize that ranking and the traffic it delivers to your website:
      1. Sell Nike products on your website and earn profit on the markup, like Zappos.
      2. Post affiliate links for an online retailer on your website and earn commission from each sale you send them.
      3. Display ads for Nike and similar products on your website and earn cost-per-impression (CPM) and/or cost-per-click (CPC) ad revenue.
      4. Build up your website’s ranking and sell it to someone who wants to use it for 1., 2. or 3.

      The ridiculous parts are ranking first for a brand name like “Nike,” with no prior SEO experience – and limited Web experience, and ranking and making your money back before the bill on your “investment card” is due. If you happen to have blogged about running for the past five years, and you’ve built up a decent audience and organic search engine ranking for running topics, then you might be able to rank high for “Nike Lunarglide review,” and, with a thorough review recommending the product, make enough ad revenue to cover your $145 for the Lunarglide shoes and then some. (Nike is not accepting new applications for Affiliates.)

      1. @Lanna, Most smart SEOs tend to target non-branded queries (instead of “Nike” they do like “running shoes” … or even better, head into the tail with keywords like “running shoes for men with large feet”) & versions of branded queries where the brand itself is not targeting (a lot of volume is built up around the the customer service a lot of big companies don’t offer & things like deals and discounts, so things like “nike shoe coupon” or “coupons for foot locker” or “repair air jordan shoes” might have some easily accessible traffic). Another option would be to rank for out of stock models and highlight if they are available on eBay & what other shoe models have a similar look and/or fit.

        Years ago one of my clients outranked their own manufacturers that they resold for on their name. But that was years ago in Microsoft Search & Yahoo! Search, and that was a rather small brand. It is virtually impossible to outrank official sites like Nike for their core branded keyword at this point. About the only opportunity for that is if Google runs in an overly aggressive anchor text penalty that penalizes Nike for having too many links with Nike in them. I know that sounds ridiculous, but they recently did that to Viagra.

    3. @Wide Eyes,

      “There’s something that I never really understood about this whole SEO mess… My understanding is that SEO kind of takes care of itself if you’re working hard, have a solid brand, and people are interested in what you do… But it takes hard work and long term commitment (and SD is a good example of that… No SEO involved, just a real community)”

      1.) If your competitors and you are both putting in lots of effort then any point of differentiation can lead to significant results.
      2.) search is a winner take most market…ranking 1 or 2 spots higher can make a huge difference in the economics of it. look at the old leaked AOL search data. rank a bit higher & get a bit more exposure = get more free traffic that leads to more links = self-reinforcing impact
      3.) just because you put effort in brand building doesn’t mean you will target all the appropriate keyword modifiers
      4.) if SEO was entirely unneeded I doubt Microsoft would have an in-house SEO team

      “If no one is interested in your brand… Gaming SEO doesn’t even make sense…”

      Well…tell that to all the people uploading spam videos to YouTube & spam note pages to Facebook & spam pins to Pinterest. They have no brand, don’t even take the traffic direct to their own sites in many cases, & still in many cases make money based on the rankings of those pages. Am I saying that is a solid longterm SEO strategy that will work forever? Not in the least. But I am saying that those people have no brand of their own that they are leveraging (they are leveraging third party brands) & some of them are still seeing results.

      “One of the con the IM people lie about (and I learned this reading SD) is saying: if you rank first on Goggle for a keyword, you’ll make money… HOW? Let’s say I rank first on the keyword Nike… So what?”

      The problem with many traffic sources is a lack of intent. This is why there are traffic exchanges that never make a sale, pop under banners sold for a fraction of a cent each, and on and on.

      But if you have intent the value is much higher. Look up the click price for mesothelioma lawyer or auto insurance or credit card in Google’s keyword tool. Some of these are $20, $30, or even $50+ clicks.

      Traffic + intent = value.

      If you don’t get how or why search traffic is valuable look at Google’s market capitalization. Most their revenues & market capitalization are driven by their search marketshare (and their brand that helps them maintain that search marketshare).

      I should also add that I wouldn’t suggest going after keywords like credit cards or auto insurance to anyone new to SEO. Those words take a long time & deep spend to build up to a competitive position (at least in saturated markets like the US and UK).

  16. What about all the affiliate marketers, who don’t make or create MMO products (make money online).
    Who have websites that provide real content and promote a real product that can be found at most large shopping outlets?

    They have no hype and don’t boast about making hundreds of thousands,but always strive to make enough to pay for something they want. Like a new PC, or Trip.

    A lots of Marketers are average and the average are the ones who never fell for the scams. Maybe we were/are just too poor LOL.

    As an Affiliate Marketer.. I want to make enough to pay for a new pair of glasses :P also a trip home. < That is the truth lol.

    I am also going back to University to complete and education and focus more of my skills on topics I enjoy. That is what Affiliates lack…. Working their skills around a niche they enjoy and not to just turn a quick buck.

    Great website Mr Droid… It was long overdue. Glad to see scum being called scum, but not the Industry Itself.

    1. @Phoebe, unless you differentiate in some way, affiliate stuff can be hard because the areas that are really profitable have lots of competition. But if you do what you really like then a lot of the points of differentiation can come to you quite naturally.

      But a lot of web businesses are just affiliates with a different spin on the model…Groupon, Daily Candy, etc. … even Yahoo! Sports has affiliate links in it.

      Affiliate marketing is just a business model though…it is neither good or bad, but just a tool. It can be used in shady ways like criminal cookie stuffing right on through to value added reviews and so on.

      1. @aaron wall ::

        Of course :: natural differentiation won’t help you if you can’t write. Knowing a lot about bird watching … isn’t the same as writing with internet eloquence about bird watching.

        If the search engines keep getting better :: journalists and writers keep losing their jobs :: and some of the massive money spent on TV commercials and other old school stuffs continues moving over to the web … then the Internet is going to become the most competitive platform ever created.

        IMO :: it’s already much easier to get a book deal than it is to build a popular website. You can get a book deal by tricking one dummy … the webz is much more demanding than that.

        1. @SD, to get a book deal you don’t even really have to trick anyone. There are a good number of publishers who will publish dreck so long as you promise to buy enough copies of your own book / salesletter / credibility building device.

          And just as getting published can be bought, so too can a top sales ranking on the best selling book lists.

          Did you see the recent ‘This American Life’ & Poynter pieces about your boys at the Chicago Tribune investing in & working with a company named Journatic. Journatic uses a combination of pulling data from sites like Legacy.com, AI, 3rd world writers paid pennies per piece, US editors to give it a quick one-over, and fake author bylines baked into the software. Then this gets published on an official news site :D

          The issue with the search engines is not just that they keep getting “better” in terms of subjective relevancy or such, but more that they keep getting better in terms of monetization. Today for the first time I saw a “Live Chat” button directly in the search results.

          The other issue aligned with increasing their monetization & control over the SERPs is the continual displacement & re-representation of 3rd party content. That forces people to have to invest more to differentiate (having to compete against a zero-cost scrape job of their own labor!!!) all the while having more of the value and traffic never leave the search engine without heading through a click toll booth.

          The last big issue is that as big players become increasingly exploitative, search engines respond by punishing smaller players more & increasing the barrier to entry while promoting big sites more. That feeds further exploitation by the largest players. This in turn provides the cover needed for the search engine to justify scraping together more forms of vertical search & displacing almost the entire result set.

          Agree that it is harder to create a legitimately popular website than have a book published. But as you know (in perhaps deeply more intimately that I could know…given the area you study), there are also lots of ways to give the perception of popularity where little to no exist.

            1. @SD, there is also a start up named Narrative Science. It uses AI exclusively. It can even write an editorial slant to the hometeam or such if you want it too. They started in sports and finance, since those have lots of numbers to generate stories from. These offerings are always pitched as extending the market of journalism, buft of course in that role they pitch themselves against non-competition in order to train and refine their process. And then over time it will eat into other areas too.

              Also a lot of big newspaper sites like SFGate & USAToday have vertical content from eHow focused on areas like real estate and travel.

              And on this front there is loads and loads of stuff that is going on that doesn’t get seen or mentioned publicly. That Journatic was creating content for years now before finally getting any coverage.

            2. @aaron wall,

              I had heard a sci-fi story on Escape Pod along those lines, but I didn’t realize it had creeped that far into the real world.

        2. @SD,

          Robots writing stories…that’s my area.

          Looks like this discussion thread has played out…but I’ll throw a comment in anyway.

          I am quite familiar with Narrative Science…and the underlying technology.

          Turns out they can take raw data and turn it into a narrative story that can fool humans…but not the Google robots.

          Within the last year (post-Panda) there was a large-scale test by a publisher (that monetizes via CPA in the EDU-Affiliate space) trying to supplement their original content (created by their rather large journalist staff) with AI-created stories.

          What they found was a clear difference in how Google perceived and ranked the AI-based content vs human-based content.

          Google could clearly tell the difference between the two and will out-rank well written human-based content (though not necessarily badly written SEO-based content…even if coming from a human).

          In the battle-of-the-robots…Google still wins!

          1. @Case,

            I kinda work in this area too (information architecture for publishing, amongst other things). We did some research into robotic copy when we redesigned FT.com and it didn’t pan out for the FT. Users (i.e. readers) were not interested in breaking news (which could have been written by robots). What they wanted was thoughtful commentary from the Financial Times writers. The editor at the paper always something like “People might hear about a story first on the BBC or the Guardian (I’m based in the UK) but they’ll come to the Financial Times for the analysis”.

            Robots weren’t that good (at the time) at writing in-depth analysis and editorials. This was in 2007 so maybe things have progressed since then. I still think it’s too early to fire the writers! :-D

  17. You can’t make money online, but you can start a Revolution.. way to go…well done droid. we approve.

  18. “Revolution said:

    You can’t make money online, but you can start a Revolution.. way to go…well done droid. we approve.”

    I should have added in the comment I posted earlier in this thread that I have made 10K online over the past 3 years.

    If you cannot make money online, how did someone who is poor do it?
    This is without “selling a dream” to people and telling them they can make money online.

    I never once sold a make money gimmick or promoted that trash to anyone.

    I unsubscribe from bloggers who send me emails promoting it. They just used my email for a profit list they can try to make money from.

    I have purchased things online that helped me with creation of websites, and this is because I do not know how to create JavaScript. < no scams there.

    Also purchased website plugins < no scam there. The people creating and selling these products make money online. Example : UberMenu for wordpress.

    Not to keep rambling on… I have made money online despite the thieves and gnomes who push scam products.

    Providing a service ( needed ) can make you money online.

    I am now creating a website that is 3 yrs on the backburner. Will this make me money online? Who knows…

    The very first blog I created made money , It was about video games.

    How did I make 10k? Promoting Food lol. This Food is from a real brick and mortar store. I just did some advertising for them online. Everyone has to eat and some people like it straight from the ocean. :P

  19. @Phoebe,

    I’m a little confused about what your point/argument is. Based on what you have written it seems that part of what you are arguing is that you haven’t purchased any products/seminars/materials from scammers. You list a few vague descriptions of things that don’t seem related to any of the products/seminars/etc from the people we talk about here, and then say you made money from websites where, as best I can tell, you sold video games and some sort of sea food. And you are taking offense at the claim that you can’t “make money online” because you have made some money selling video games and sea food?

    I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something, but I”m not sure where you’re going with this one because it’s hard to tell from your description what your actual business model is and what you actually sell. Are you offering yourself as an example of an “Internet market doing it right?”

    1. @What the what,

      You pretty much explained my response for me. The constant remarks in the comments for this post is, “you can’t make money online”. All I was saying is that yes you can make money online.

      I never said it was easy and that is what scammers will tell you.

      What the what, what IS your argument? I mean kids have made money posting their video game channel on youtube for thousands of viewers. I am just stating that “selling a dream” to people is nasty and that they should not see making money online as a scam, but something that takes real work like a job.

      Have no Idea why you are upset at me for just stating facts.

      1. @Phoebe,

        I can only speak for myself, but I’m counting down until you defend a scammer who’s been called out here. You’re looking for some acquiescence that perhaps some hardworking, lucky people can “make money online,” and if you get an inch you’ll take a mile. I’ll bet Sonia Simone taught you everything you know about using “storyselling” to market fish filets in an “authentic” way, and we shouldn’t lump her in with all the bad people.

        If that’s the case, let’s just get this over with.

        Otherwise, I have no idea why you’re upset at being told you’ve accomplished the impossible.

        1. @Lanna,

          How many times have I said on here scammers are scum??? can you actually read what I have said here. I mean because I don’t use foul language does that mean I like them?

          I have heard of this Sonia person by reading this website. I learned a lot by reading what other people have gone through and all the money they were cheated out of.

          You sound like a sad woman who lost her mind in a cult. I have no Idea why people are so mean to other people in comments here. I can see why people who are hard working in making a small website work, refuse to speak up, because this is the treatment that they get.

          I don’t mention names of people who have made it with their businesses online, because even selling handmade soap on eBay will get you called a evil scammer here it seems.

          I don’t have the money to even be in a scammers circle of “friends”. The person you should be watching out for is the one in the mirror. You have the mind of someone weak and ready to snap at any moment.

        2. @Lanna ::

          I’ll save you the suspense of waiting {it’s not good for your weak mind} :: here’s our friend @Phoebe in June

          I like ProBlogger because he was always honest about how he made his money and how hard it was to make. he told bloggers that making money online was not some easy get rich quick solution.

          The man made money with other websites before he made a blog about ProBlogger. I don’t get why people are on his case. Maybe it’s because rotten people are connected to him?

          @Phoebe ::

          … you can’t make money online.

          1. @SD,

            I have actually searched your website on ProBlogger and couldn’t find anything on your website, or online in a search.

            Nobody corrected me by explaining some of his scams here…

            I would love to see some links.

            This is what I got from Rowse years ago…

            ” How to make a blog” just basically how to setup a wordpress website and focus on a topic. Pretty basic stuff you learn from a writing class in college. It was free I never spent any money on it lol.

            I would like to read more about his scamming though @SD

            Most readers here would love to think I am taking up for scammers… because they hate scammers… who doesn’t?

            If you are angry take it out on the people who hurt you not someone who is not into selling MMO products.

            Weak people fall for scams because they are greedy at the core. Then they make a huge mistake attacking me who never once promoted a make money product to anyone.

            yea i said it WEAK because they never learned their lesson the first time and now they attack me… it’s like a witch hunt here even on people who promote groceries on sale lmao

            1. @Phoebe, You couldn’t find anything? That’s funny, because it took me about five seconds to find this: http://saltydroid.info/?s=Darren+Rowse&x=15&y=2 I especially recommend “This is also relevant to my interests” where in Darren Rowse says blogging is a “six figure type situation”. Sounds like your 10k in three years wouldn’t qualify you in his eyes as an internet marketer, so I’m surprised you’re so eager to adopt the label.

              So you think people who fall for scams must be weak and greedy (really??? Have you really READ any of the stories here??) and you don’t think you’re either of those things, so you don’t have to be concerned that your mentors, who mostly come across as very nice people (and I’m sure their dogs and children love them) are part of a syndicate (oh, yeah, they call it a ‘tribe’ in this case- all warm and fuzzy) that feeds people into a sick machine that grinds them (and their families) into tiny, bloody bits.

              I really recommend that you continue to read here, Phoebe- everything (including the comments, so you know who Lanna is, for instance). It sounds like you are dangerously naive about the people you follow and whose products you buy. And you don’t have the kind of chops that would let you research them yourself (as Lanna has done so often and brilliantly). You also don’t seem to know that most, if not all, of the ‘products’ you are buying have free alternatives that won’t get you on a boiler-room telephone list.

              * Disclaimer: yeah, I know, Phoebe’s comments are classic D-team shill and she’ll no doubt expose herself in the next few comments, making me feel like a fool once again for getting sucked into this game. But this is for the REAL Phoebes out there, who, like me when I first started reading, just can’t understand why Salty’s targetting this or that person who you’ve had contact with and just seems so NICE. Believe me, there’s a good reason. He’s right and you’re wrong.

  20. I have said what I wanted to say under this posting. I agree with Salty Droid on how he is aggressively taking the lead in exposing criminals online.

    To the people who keep responding to me and speaking like “angry sheep”, who have been fleeced by the snake-oil salesman. I”M NOT THE ONE WHO TOOK YOUR MONEY!!!!

    I would advise you to direct your anger to the people who hurt your wallets.

    Stop attacking people in comments and speak about what you have been through personally.

    I for one got tired of the crap and unsubscribed from many many websites. People that were trying to sell me 1k tutorials on things you can find free on Google searches.

    I started doing what I wanted and stopped listening to people who were already rich selling a dream. I got so sick of it I dumped all my websites and got very depressed.

    I now do things different. I don’t read websites by people who are MMO bloggers. I read about everything pertaining to how to run a real business.

    I refused to be a statistic and could have easily fell for it, but like I have mentioned here in the comments. I am POOR.

    Stop hating on people who have never sold anything other than a seafood dinner to someone online

    I’m done responding to this particular post. Maybe I will write more about my own personal experiences soon.

    How many of you ever stopped someone from making a mistake wasting their money to scammers? I know I have talked to 3 friends personally about the online scam world. Have YOU? ( to the people trying to connect me to scammers i have never heard of until i found this website get a life )


    1. @Phoebe,

      Geez, you’re right. commenters here are really nasty. One of them said this: “You sound like a sad woman who lost her mind in a cult.” And the person that nasty and unnecessary insult was aimed at had just correctly identified a concern troll.

      Maybe that commenter might like to take it back and apologize?

      1. @Yakaru, How would you fill when someone runs out of know where and point the finger at you to call you a scammer? I responded in the same manner she was responding to me.

        1. @Phoebe,

          “I can only speak for myself, but I’m counting down until you defend a scammer who’s been called out here”.

          That’s what @Lanna said…she’s waiting for you to DEFEND a scammer. She didn’t say you were a scammer. No one here insulted you. I said I didn’t understand where you were coming from. @Lanna said she believed that she expected you to defend one of the people “who’s been called out here.” [Which, by the way, you actually did do back in June]

          You are the one slinging personal attacks. You’re the one who said she sounded like a sad woman who lost her mind in a cult. You’re the one who said she had a weak mind. And by the way, both of your attacks or bollocks.

          Show me where @Lanna called you a scammer.

          1. @What the what,

            *attacks are bollocks (not attacks or bollocks, that would just be silly)

  21. Thanks for posting the link.

    I have said what I wanted to about this topic, and will take a friends advice, who knows nothing about affiliate marketing an online businesses.
    I will let the arguing go and just be OK with being call names and accused of being taught by scammers. Even though I learned about 90% of them after reading this website :/

    If I know I can tell someone about scamworld and save them money, It helps and the message is passed along. Isn’t that what this website is about? To expose real scammers and prevent them from hurting people?

    The comments I made here will be voted down even when I agree with the topic of the website… What’s the point to it after that lol.

    I’m done… have a good day all.. Spread the word and be safe online.


    1. @Phoebe, Maybe you get the down-thumbing because of stupid, insulting things you say like this:

      “How many of you ever stopped someone from making a mistake wasting their money to scammers? I know I have talked to 3 friends personally about the online scam world. Have YOU?”

      It’s just the biggest nonsense around to say something like it by poofing-it from made-up-ville.

  22. Chris Farrel ……….. hes doing it right so you are wrong. You haven’t written about chris farrel because he’s doing it right

    1. @James, Chris Farrell isn’t someone “doing it right”.

      He is a failed actor and DJ who never made any money online until he created his “Super helpful, easy going, softly spoken Brit” character and started to show other people how to make money online.

      His old website:


      One of his Dr Glitz gigs:


      ^^ If somebody more technically inclined than me wants to embed the above video for me, that’d be chipper.

  23. Chris Farrel ……….. hes doing it right so you are wrong. You haven’t written about chris farrel because he’s doing it right

  24. I’d like to nominate a friend of mine named Jermain, he’s run a site that teaches people how to play gospel and jazz music for ten years. And he’s made millions doing it.

    I do believe if you are ethical and serve your customers well, you can make a lot of money starting your own thing online.

    1. @Mr F,

      Nevermind, found it. Why does NittyGrittyMarketing.com redirect to the music site now? What kind of deep, dark, scammy secrets were happening on the Nitty Gritty site?

      I’m not finding anything on Jermaine himself, but I’d say he’s guilty by association.

      He’s two degrees from Mike Filsaime, which puts him three degrees from Utah boiler room/civilian waterboarding facility Prosper. Here he is in a video with Simon Leung, who was on the guest list for Mike Filsaime’s Affiliate Appreciation Weekend:


      This year The Verge writer Joseph Flatley attended Yanik Silver’s Underground Online Seminar for his “Scamworld” article. He took a photo with Anthony Morrison, who turns his leads over to Utah boiler room PMI, which regular readers know from the Scamming Two Debbies audio, wherein Chris Bartold scams Debbie out of $10k – nearly half her annual salary. According to long-time friend of the site Willie Crawford, Jermaine was “‘Marketer
      of the Year 2007’ at Yanik Silver’s recent Underground Marketing Seminar.”

      You’ll notice Mike Filsaime, Anthony Morrison and Yanik Silver are all “subjectories” below. Feel free to explore the articles about them and their douchebaggery.

      If Jermaine is so legit, why is he hanging out with these douchenoodles?

      1. @Lanna,

        Jermaine shut down the site 6 months after launching it like 4 yrs ago because, although he was sharing valuable info about how he successfully grew his music site, the customers were so jaded because of their past experiences. So he shut it down. He was smart. He didn’t want anything to do with that. His main site is http://www.hearandplay.com . I bought a few DVDs from him, got some free too, because my brother plays the piano at our church.

        So yes, there are VERY successful internet entrepreneurs out there, but they didn’t get there buying software or buying into every other gurus launch.

        I’ve bought a few myself including coaching, but I was coached by someone that isn’t involved in the big guru network. I come to this site often because it helps me to see the other side of the world I’ve been studying and involved in for 8 yrs.

        There’s a fine line, dark line, between aggressive marketing, and taking advantage of people.

        My philosophy now is, “If I had to lie, I shouldn’t be promoting, doing, or building it”.

        1. @Mr F,

          There’s a fine line, dark line, between aggressive marketing, and taking advantage of people.

          I guess. Personally I’ve never been able to see the difference. I don’t begrudge sales (much). But aggressive sales is always trying (aggressively) to turn into taking advantage of people.

          Aggressive sales/marketing has a mind of its own… like The One Ring.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

        2. @Mr F,

          Internet entrepreneurs or Internet Marketers? Nobody’s denying Jeff Bezos is a successful, ethical(ish) Internet entrepreneur. We’re talking about people in the Internet Marketing industry, and Jermaine seems to run in Internet Marketing circles.

          1. @Lanna,

            Makes sense. But without first coming to a site like SD’s its hard to know who’s who and what’s what when you’re getting started.

            When I worked for a telemarketing firm when I was 20 most of the customers would complain that their cards were being charged automatically every month without their knowledge.

            The commercials vaguely mentioned this, and our sales script mentioned that their card would be “conveniently” billed, “if” they like the product.

            The truth was, their card was BILLED TODAY!

            They were using a play on words, but I decided on my own that I wouldn’t say that. I just told the customers that their card would be charged today, and “trust ME, I know you’re going to LOVE it”.

            I was the top sales person in the company without lying, but a lot of other sales people stretched the truth and lied.

            I think this is human nature for us humans when our compensation is tied to how many sales we make. Even I “slip up” from time to time.

            This industry definitely needs “policing” though, and sites like this are a great help.

  25. What about Donald Crowther? I found out from him at http://www.jvwithdon.com that he’s a “High Integrity Person” I can trust to show me how to make money fast which is good for me to find out from him telling me about it, because I got worried when saw some products he promoted from Jeff Johnson, Jeff Walker, Mike Koenigs, Mike Filsaime Ed Dale, Brendon Burchard, Eben Pagan, and some other people I read about on the SD site.

    Jeff Johnson Traffic Voodoo Bonuses – DonCrowther.com

    Jeff Johnson Super Affiliate Coaching Club Prelaunch 2


    Mike Koenigs Instant Customer

    Main Street Marketing Machines

    Traffic Geyser

    Mike Filsaime Chris Farrel AffiliateDotcom Prelaunch Video 4

    Ed Dale

    Jeff Walker PLF 3.1 Prelaunch Video 1


  26. Or – what about Mark Ling at Affiliorama. He is one of the ‘good guys’…

    But he seems to have fallen with a bad crowd…

    Frank Kern…


    Andy Jenkins…


    Eben Pagan…


    Mike Filsaime…


    Damn. That site looks so wholesome and all. Mark seems like such a nice and helpful guy. His company being very successful in NZ according to Deloitte, etc. But he hangs out with the bad guys. So he can’t be a good guy. Sorry everyone. Need to start looking again. There must be someone.

      1. @Random stuff,

        I can haz lolz now?

        That’s funny.

        Thanks for the (presumably unintentional) humor, Affiliorama Terms Page!

      2. @Random stuff ::

        One of their affiliates ran a press release that mentioned me :: we had a lil’ conversation about how much I didn’t love that … and some changes were made.

  27. This in response to Mr. SD from hmm…8 weeks ago but in reference to Aaron Wall’s post on Google ad placement, it seems that almost 4 out of 10 searchers don’t even realize ads are being place on the search engine of Google which currently captures most market share.

    In that sense, that makes it even easier for marketers with loaded budgets in spammy niches to peddle their products.

    And oh…I must debunk you on something. You CAN make money online. Ask any big-box retailer or e-commerce operator. You CAN’T make money online legitimately with product launches and selling digital products.

    1. @aura lav, SD explained in the Rick Calvert thread:
      “’… you can’t make money online’ is figurative not literal. When you see it :: it doesn’t make sense … so then you have to think about it. If you think about it … you might figure out this scam before it’s too late to salvage your life/soul. That’s why it’s such a great tagline.”

      It’s meant for the people who are lost in scamworld, who might not even realize they are lost. They are being told left and right that there is some magical way to make money out there, using the Internet, if they could only learn the secret. The tagline is a hammer thrown through the screen.

      the Salty Droid is way too smart to say something like that and mean it literally. You should know that.

  28. Hurrah. I’ve found an Internet Marketer doing it right.

    There is an article in yesterday’s Guardian (sorry I am the type that reads old news) which begins…

    Grant Shapps, the Conservative housing minister tipped for promotion to the [UK government!] cabinet this week,

    and continues


    So he is doing it right! He is doing it so right that he has managed to become a minister (albeit just to keep the property market scam going), and might even become a member of cabinet.

    The fact that he breaches Google’s code of conduct surely does’nt matter, as we all know how Google conducts itself (huge fines for selling harmful drugs, promoting scam MLM organisations, etc…)

    @SD – please put Michael Green aka Grant Shapps at the top of the list.

    No hold on! Wait a minute! This guy is selling plagiarising software and not using his real name. He can’t be doing it right. As people doing things right generally like to associate their real name with the products that they are proud to sell. He is breaking respectable codes of conduct.

    @SD – please don’t even think of putting his name on the list.

    Sorry for wasting everyone’s time. I was sure I had one. Back to the drawing board.

      1. @Random stuff, Seems to me that ‘Michael Green’ well-known, longtime IM scammer will simply be taking his well-earned place with the bigger dogs at the trough of poor old Blighty’s casino economy.
        The writing was on the wall back when Maggie Thatcher declared that there was no longer such a thing as ‘society’ just a deregulated free-for-all.

        1. @pigs trotters, You must be right. I’m still shocked. “Never trust a politician” is a well known saying – however there is no poetry in politicians being blatant out and out scammers.

        2. @pigs trotters, Yup. Though I am still shocked. “Never trust a politician” is a well know saying, however there is no poetry in a politician being a blatant out and out scammer. It beggars belief. I am still hoping, perhaps blindly, for a comeuppance.

      1. @Conflicted Pandas, more incredible by the moment!

        This man is not just untrustworthy, he is sleazy and not very intelligent, if all the points in the article are to be believed – and they seem sadly more than credible to me.

        And he’s a UK MP. Help!!!

    1. Aaaand Grant Shapps is to be investigated by Advertising Standards:


      (Hope they stick that advertising probe right up his proverbial).

      From the Guardian article:

      “The Plashing Vole, a blogger, complained to the regulator last month that HowToCorp, started by Shapps and his wife in 2000, was an internet marketing firm which had seen the Tory MP “posing as ‘Michael Green’ and/or ‘Sebastian Fox’ to flog … business guides, software and SEO scripts”.

      The writer also asked the authority to look into whether the “testimonials” from customers on the website were real: “After a bit of digging, I decided that the enthusiastic endorsements by happy customers of HowToCorp might be just as fictional as Grant’s alter egos.””

      You go, Plashing Vole, whoever you are.

      1. @Conflicted Pandas,

        Aaaand Grant Shapps…. is conducting a PR offensive in the Sunday rags (Express), going for the sympathy vote with his ‘I beat cancer’ story.


        1. @pigs trotters,

          Sociopaths generally do that when they’ve got nothing else left. It’s their “go to” move.

          Of course I don’t actually know that Grant Shapps is a sociopath. I’m just speculating.

        2. @pigs trotters,

          There was an item on Channel 4 news yesterday that the Advertising Standards Authority had recieved various ‘assurances’ from HowtoCorp that they would clean up their act.
          Stench of fresh paint–whitewash.

          The reporter had attempted to track down the people who provided testimoanials on the site, no joy at all, and doorstepped Shapps in the Commons buidings-no response from the Tory Party Chairman.


          Hopefully the tabloids will pick this up, they do love a bit of muck-raking, particularly if it involves some toff bashing too.

          I will speculate that this one won’t die just yet, despite the attempted whitewash.

          1. @pigs trotters,

            OOps, correction; the doorstepping was at the Tory Party Conference in Birmingham, not the Commons–and I can usually spell ‘receive’ properly.

            1. @pigs trotters,


              “How To Corp, the website brand founded by Tory chairman Grant Shapps, has been taken down from the internet, taking with it a series of potentially embarrassing details about the former life of the prominent Conservative MP and his alter ego, Michael Green.

              Since last week a slew of websites have disappeared, removing all traces of Michael Green’s offer to make $20,000 (£12,500) in 20 days “or your money back” and details of phone lines offering expert internet marketing advice for $297 an hour.”

          2. @pigs trotters,

            I don’t think it’s going away. I saw a tweet from Helen Lewis of the New Statesman the other day, needling somebody at the Tory party conference with regards to “Michael Green”. I didn’t save it, but it was along the lines of “Oh, your party has people who are who they say they are. Michael Green shifts uncomfortably in his seat.”

            So it’s spread from what looked like the Guardian’s niche cause to something one of the editors of the Staggers is keeping an eye on. I remain hopeful.

  29. This website is pretty cool. It uncovers some interesting stuff about guys I have been following for some time. I agree to some extent to the BS and can attest to alot of it not actually working or being ponzi schemish. And I work with a bunch of lawyers that have shut down ponzi schemers, so I totally get what you are doing and commend you for it.

    However, some of it is decent and worth looking at and does work. I mean Kajabi is way over priced and hypey but works well. Videoboss is really good stuff and teaches you to make good videos. And if you compare that against having to pay for some video degree from some university, it is damned cheap. There is a reason they call it a B.S. degree. ;) So, if you want to cast stones at these guys I think you need to lump in all education systems and every bookstore and library on the planet. And there is where we disagree. Some things like Frank Kearn’s teachings are good at teaching you how to think like a marketer. I wouldn’t condone scamming people, but you have to think like a merketer, a business person in order to make it.

    The way I look at it is that you have to separate the good stuff from the crap and sometimes you have to wade through the crap to find some diamonds. Also, I blame the universities that have for years provided crappy education and inadequate stuff that doesn’t keep up with the trends. The internet marketers fill in those gaps where universities are too slow to adapt.

    I guess my point is that I disagree that everything on the internet is a complete fraud and that the guys putting stuff together are all fraudsters. Tony Robbins for example. Yes, it is over hyped, the shit he claims to have done for others. But I have seen him live and he does get you motivated to get things done. I can’t claim to have gotten an island yet, but the inspiration helped me start a business and work hard and get some income.

    So, what I am saying is don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. So what if these guys work as a syndicate to market each other’s stuff? Marketing isn’t a bad thing. Yeah alot of their stuff (mike filsaimes stuff especially) is worthless crap. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t learn from the process to sell good products that people can actually learn from or benefit from. Syndicate marketing is a tool you can use to do good or bad. At least Kern is open to teach it so that you know the crap he is spouting. That is worth something. Don’t you think?

    1. @Johnny B. Good,

      Some things like Frank Kearn’s teachings are good at teaching you how to think like a marketer.

      I wanted to inform you that you had two typos there. The first is that his last name is spelled “Kern”. The second is that you (must have inadvertently) wrote “marketer” where you should have written “narcissistic, spawn-of-the-devil, evil bastard”. It’s a common mistake that often happens when people try to defend the indefensible.

      I wouldn’t condone scamming people, but you have to think like a merketer, a business person in order to make it.

      Then I guess I’m just not going to be able to “make it” then. Maybe you shouldn’t either.

      But I have seen [Tony Robbins] live and he does get you motivated to get things done.

      I have no doubt he can get you “motivated”. SFW? Basically, he gets you “motivated” and you feel really snazzy for a little while. Whilest you’re in that state, you’re more likely to make rash “take action!” decisions… like, for example buying more of his crap so that you can continue to be “motivated” by Mr. Robbins.

      True, not everyone that feels “motivated” will buy more of his crap. True, some of those that get “motivated” will manage to change their life for the better. But, if Tony Robbins was really all about helping people, then he would have a day job and do the motivation on the side at little or no cost. But Tony Robbins is really all about the betterment of Tony Robbins. And his “motivation” is as likely to hurt someone as it is to help them. And Tony Robbins really doesn’t care about that one bit. And I’m not sure you do either.

      Your post is really just a long-winded rationalization of behavior that some part of your brain knows isn’t so good.

      In psychology and logic, rationalization (also known as making excuses[1]) is an unconscious defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are logically justified and explained in a rational or logical manner in order to avoid any true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means.[2] Rationalization encourages irrational or unacceptable behavior, motives, or feelings and often involves ad hoc hypothesizing. This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).

      To your success.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Johnny B. Good,

      “So, if you want to cast stones at these guys I think you need to lump in all education systems and every bookstore and library on the planet.”

      Thanks for using the “I think these things are scams, so my thing isn’t a scam” logic for close to approximately the billionth time on the Internet. It’s on that we hear many time from the ponzi-players when they say, “if you think my ponzi’s a scam, just look at Social Security!”

  30. Hi Johnny,

    Nice long comment there- good read. Glad you work with putting ponzi poop to rest, but couldn’t you come up with some better names to cheer for?

    I mean u listed people who are all poopoo. There are real people, moms, dads, teens who make extra income and sometimes 100% of their bill money using THE INTERNET. Remember that Kid who made the Coupon website, another kids who made templates for social network profiles, oh and the neo-pets fanpage, etc… That money that was generated had nothing to do with people being scammed. Advertisers rushed to them because they had pageviews out the waZOO!

    I think there needs to be more people who are represented in online marketing who are not MMO creators. People who do not sell items that have any connection with make money online.

    Most Affiliate Marketers and Publishers are not into MMO. The majority of ONLINE sales come from Publisher websites to promote products from Stores like Target, Walmart and the Biggest- Amazon.

    There are many people out here who know people who are “doing it right”, and not out to sell someone a diet pill and a dream of being rich.

    As for Motivational, and these Fake Guru Coaches and Trainers= If you cannot see your potential and have faith and motivation from within, then you will fail no matter what others tell you. Pay someone to tell me to get off my ass.???? WTF :P

    ( will come back tomorrow to see how many thumbs down i get) i luv u people dam :)

    1. @Phoebe,

      Youre right, you can make money with adsense like that neopets kid. In fact in 2009 I worte a few articles with adsense on it.

      I just discovered the time i spent on that only just now gave me back my money I would have made with a $10/hour mcdonalds job.

      So now the articles are on autopilot. But every moment in time they can just disappear from results, then the income stream goes away.

      In any case, its much harder then (back then) it seemed to be easy. if anything, Working from home is a bigger drudgery than working in a cubicle.

      1. @jon, @Phoebe – you can do it right. By setting up a proper business with a unique or competitive proposition. Setting up a blog niche website that makes revenue: one in a million chance. Even the mainstream press have problems making their websites gain advertising revenue: that’s why they have moved to subscription models.

        I did an experiment with a friend, who has a successful online business – side line was alot of visitors.

        I set up an OpenX webserver: generated 3,000,000 ad displays, for the least shifty looking ClickBank products I could find, with ok adds, suited to the visitor demographic, and tried a couple of other affiliate networks

        Total revenue: $250.

        From @Johnny B. Good…

        “Some things like Frank Kearn’s teachings are good at teaching you how to think like a marketer. I wouldn’t condone scamming people, but you have to think like a merketer, a business person in order to make it.”

        Thinking like a merketer? Meercats are good merketers. Maybe Frank Kearn is the IMer who teaches Meercats.

        It’s easy to get caught up in the hype. I am glad @Jon you are seeing the reality. IM products represent theft of time as well as money. Information that a wanabee IMer is looking for is available for free – however being a wanabee IMer is the first mistake.

        1. @Random stuff, Mainstream websites are in a loosing battle everyday. They are being slapped by websites like Mediatakeout.com and Infowars lol. Mainstream media is hollow a bold fake liar in nasty suits with lips.

          Adsense keeps those YouTube partners fed pretty good. I’m also a partner ( wish i knew what to do with it )

          Never knew anyone who had this much ad-space showing and blew it like you did. if I had the access to that I would have never used something from CB lol.

          This year I will do more writing, and creating. I will do more than I have ever done online in my life.

          Most affiliates fail. That is why scammers make a killin’ selling their dream to them. They stop thinking for themselves and think that their is a easier way without hard work.

          I do not plan on being just an Affiliate Marketer. It’s too easy to loose it all if a network shuts it’s doors.

          I am taking it further and getting incorporated and spending time with Entrepreneurs in Boston and N.Y and actually move away from just the affiliate circle.

          Business is shitty but I got hip-boots

          ( I would advise any online marketer to re-invest out of being just an affiliate )

  31. @discover here,

    any suggestions on how to get listed in Yahoo News

    Oh you’re just not harping on the keyword often enough yet. But a probably bad tip is you can use copy and paste to spam the keyword easily.

    E.g.: Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News Yahoo News …

    That will more clearly show the quality of your commentating.

  32. Marie Forleo is one marketer who is doing it right. She’s actually more of a personal development expert as she used to be a life coach, and almost all of her stuff is free. She has even been endorsed by oprah and has fantastic youtube videos. She occasionally endorses others for a commission, but very rarely and only does that after thoroughly going through their courses to make sure they are top notch. She runs her B school once a year and helps female entrepreneurs to reach the next level. She’s absolutely amazing, look at her videos, and her facebook page I can’t find anything bad about her and have gained a lot from her.

    1. Marie Forleo – in her own words: “I often say if Tony Robbins, Richard Branson, Oprah and Jay-Z had a love child, it would be me.”


      ….Sarah Dean: maybe have a bit of a cruise around this site re Tony Robbins et al.

      And then come back with a new comment on Marie Forleo….?

      1. @Random Stuff – because we all know that SD is a hard-hitting fact-finding weathered journalist, right? Speaking of sheeple…..

    2. @Sarah Dean ::

      Is the “it” you refer to in “doing it right” scamming? Because then :: yeah … I totally agree with you. Marie is so bad that it’s funny … and then not funny.

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