Utah’s Shit in a Box

Band of Bastards

This fucking freak is gonna eat your granny :: hard … not in the sexy teen vampire way … that plus the Utah Arts Festival in this week’s Salt Lake City Weekly.

Phone Predators is the third of three Eric Peterson articles about how the “this is the place” founded by Brigham Young {for his multitudinous wives} has become “the place” for flagrant fraud against the vulnerable.

Let’s be honest :: it was actually in last week’s issue … and you already missed the Utah Arts Festival {it was lovely}. I was gonna try to be a good fake robot and post about this cover story right away :: but instead I posted nothing {literally} … and it was far more popular than my last couple of {really important} Utah stories combined. So there’s that.

Anywayz :: this third story is more about the business of doing fake business than it is about the extremist corruption of Mitt Romney’s dirty boyfriends which allows that fake business to go on unchecked … and in the wide open. Let’s skip right to Jason :: because you know that’s what the non-mormon version of Jesus wants us to do …

Since 2009, Jason Jones has chronicled the legal troubles of numerous companies operating in the online-business-opportunity (OBO) industry on his website, SaltyDroid.info. Jones says the media has failed to grasp how some companies in the industry gang up and work like packs of predators feeding on individual clients to extract the most money possible out of them.

“It’s hardly been reported on at all how much these guys work to share names, how much this is like an enterprise and not some random association of thousands of bastards,” Jones says.

The media has failed to grasp a few {/all} other relevant details about Scamworld as well :: most especially their own clear complicity in the scam … speaking of thousands of bastards.

“This is just a lie. You can’t regulate fraud.”

Says Jason :: who I guess hates liars … because haters gonna hate and stuff.

Utah’s former U.S. Attorney Brett Tolman disagrees …

Returning to the private sector, former U.S. Attorney Tolman began cultivating telemarketing clients and helping them understand that surviving in the industry means being willing to be scrutinized by state and federal regulators—not hiding from them—and not counting on political donations to buy them protection.

“I was making a pitch to a lot of these companies that they should start to become real strong and grown-up companies and businesses,” Tolman says.

Oh hey Brett Tolman :: partner at Ray Quinney & Nebeker … what’s up boy? Gr8 to finally have your name here. You prolly just heard about me for the first time cause you’re sloppy :: but I already know all about you and the fucking bullshit you’ve been up to … helping them do harm for a big taste of the action … sucking the scum off the scum suckers {making you even grosser than they} while wearing your Sunday’s best. I can’t believe you just admitted to this shit on the record :: it’s a real fucking gift to me … so thanks for that.

“This is a $4 billion industry, and it’s not going to go anywhere,” which means that if it’s going to survive, it has to deliver on its promises, Tolman says. Part of the problem, he says, is that some companies have the wrong idea about how to deal with regulators and the state Attorney General’s Office.

Yeah :: part of the problem is that some of these companies try to buy off officials :: and “deal with” the regulators :: without giving a juicy cut to the lawyers first … and that’s just rude.

I’d love to hear some of Brett Tolman’s brilliant lawyerly advice in the comments below about how this “industry” …

… can “grow-up.”

Maybe instead of charging Debbie $10,000 for the sage business advice :: “rank number one in Google for Nike and Netflix” … they could charge only $8000 and recommend that Debbie do something more realistic for a secretary in her mid-fifties who knows nothing about the interwebs and wishes she’d have saved for retirement … like replacing Jimmy Fallon as the host of Late Night?

Maybe instead of 300,000 chargebacks :: Jeremy Johnson could keep within the more “grown-up” limit of say 177,777 chargebacks?

Maybe Mentoring of America could do the “grown-up” thing and give back the $450 million they took to help less than one percent of their victims achieve insignificant success … while the rest got nothing but regrets?

Or maybe Brett Tolman should just keep his dirty fucking mouth shut while he waits for his karmic comeuppance? You can’t buy a soul … but you can certainly sell one.

Former boiler room insider Crawford Lindsay wasn’t the editor of the BYU Law Review like hypocrite scum sucker Brett Tolman :: he prolly didn’t even go to college … but that hasn’t prevented him from seeing the clear and obvious truth that Brett Tolman has 4 billion reasons to ignore …

“These guys were selling shit in a box,” Lindsay says of the coaching packages they sold for various coaching companies. “I’m just as guilty, but I was told by the owners that [our customers] were being taken care of. It took me a while to realize, ‘Wow, I’ve probably sold millions of dollars worth of shit in a box, and I can’t ask one [customer] to show us how your business is going,’ ” he says.

Shit in a box :: full disclosure … there’s no box.

>> bleep bloop

74 thoughts on “Utah’s Shit in a Box”

      1. @Sundog, A bit creepy, but with a backstory about why the reporter pretended to be the participant instead of following DefCon protocol to get the Press badge (apparently she was to catch participants committing crimes – ala “Chris Hansen” – which is very-much nonsense).

        Note when the one referenced Creepy Chris Hansen from To Catch A Predator with the line, “To Catch A Reporter”.

      2. @Sundog,

        If it were anyone but a “secret filming” reporter, I’d agree. But here the phrase “hoist by your own petard” seems somewhat apposite.

  1. Yet again, the blindness of those who will not see is astounding. Is there a way to get them to stop referring to this as an “industry”? The very word confers an unwarranted legitimacy. What can we do to stop them?

    Trying to regulate this Scamdustry is like trying to get along with meningitis…without antibiotics. (unnecessary, painful & ultimately fatal)

    The Salty Droid = Antiscamicillin.

  2. Josh Reynolds comments on the article and comes across as a former insider willing to come clean and name names, dates, and specifics about the “industry” and the officials who love it. I presume you’ve met?

      1. @SD, Some stains don’t come off, true, some crimes can’t be forgiven. Poor choice of words on my part.

        Still, talking would at least lighten his shade a bit, if not his guilt. Although it would perhaps be lending him too much credit to think that he’ll bring you anything new in his attempt to make up for it.

  3. In Utah, more than anywhere else I’ve lived, the ability to project the air of having your shit together so much that you have a comfortable life of ease and luxury counts for so very, very much. Consequently, these boiler room operators and other scam artists get a foothold. If you scratch hard, you’ll find that the guys making the money are also pillars of their local wards and stakes. Because money talks.

    Seriously, though, Utah is the scam capital of the universe, and it’s not just “Internet marketing.” One need only look at Utah’s senior senator, Orrin Hatch, and his decades’-long promotion of the “nutritional supplements” market, including protection from FDA regulation, to see what I mean. There’s a reason so many multi-level marketing schemes are based out of Utah (NuSkin, SendOutCards and Stampin’ Up! come to mind here). People are looking for get rich quick schemes because being rich is what it’s about in Utah. So you can serve the Church, doncha know.

    1. @mirele,

      IIRC, aren’t Mormons expected to donate at 15% or 20% instead of the usual 10%/tithe?

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd ::

        You wouldn’t think the FTC would have to fight the church to get back the millions in other people’s money that Jeremy Johnson transfered to their coffers … but that’s just what’s happening.

        1. @Wyrd, Actually they use the Tithe system and give ‘10% of their increase’ to the church.

          @SD, That’s pretty sad. You would think they’d gladly offer up the money. If anything would be great PR! Maybe they should sign up for a Dan Kennedy course. Ha! Do you have any articles or links to share?

        2. @SD,

          This isn’t the first time that’s happened, either. You might want to Google “Bonneville Pacific,” where the principals in the massive fraud (which ended up in bankruptcy) had given nearly $2 million to the LDS Church in ill-gotten gains. The bankruptcy trustee succeeded in clawing a lot of that back from the church in a settlement. (I would imagine, given the number of frauds out there, that this happens more often than we know, it’s just kept quiet.)

      2. @Wyrd,

        Actually no. It is 10 percent. There’s debate as to whether it’s 10 percent gross or 10 percent net.

        Now if your child goes on a mission, you’re expected to contribute to that, but the way it’s done is a tax dodge. You give the money to the church, which doesn’t actually credit it to your child’s account, but it’s used for the missionary work. But they keep track. You get a receipt at the end of the year for your good works, the church gets your money and your kid goes on a mission.

        That said, there are some whackjobs out there who give more than 10 percent, but they’re f*cking nuts. Most people have a hard enough time scraping up 10 percent.

  4. Utah presents this image of “industry” and this whole “wholesome” image about mormons and whatever, when they are nothing but the exact opposite of what they portray themselves to be. When I say “Utah” I don’t mean everyone in the state, I just mean these assholes and the assholes in the Attorney General’s office that turn a blind eye to these guys. BTW, in Spanish slang, the “blind eye” is the anus, so feel free to infer many different meanings from what I just said.

  5. I hate that these guys play the role of “good Mormons” while scamming in their real life. I don’t think it is fair to characterize all Mormons this way though.

    Also my opinion is these Utah posts are not as popular is because when the corruption is at the level of people who create and enforce laws … you feel helpless.

    1. @RT, Agreed. On both counts.

      If the scam artist is a Catholic, born again, Jewish, Pastafarian or whatevs… That doesn’t get brought up. They’re just a scammer. But if they’re Mormon… They’re now a Mormon Scammer.

      Horrible people are found in every religion and non-religion.

      One might say that it’s a matter of percentages. But that’s doomed to be subjective based on personal experience alone. People are people…

      Except those shiffty Mennonites!

      Scammers every one, I tellzya!

      1. @Just Sayin… ::

        That’s really not true. I talk shit about fake christians all the time {see eg Ryan Deiss}.

        The Mormon angle is important in the scam … it can’t be avoided. A certain kind of closed off religious thinking tends to make people more susceptible to scams … and more likely to perpetrate them. IMO :: it’s about the way a repressed dissent environment changes the way your brain functions.

        Evangelicals or Mormons — yep … prolly a relevant factor.

        Presbyterians or Buddhists — nope … prolly moot.

        Different religions are different.

        1. @SD,

          1) I know you don’t single out Mormons and I agree it is appropriate thing to have in the mix of conversation. My point was that whenever I hear someone in the news who did something wrong, if they’re a mormon, it’s front and center. Whereas I rarely hear someone’s religion come in to the context of news or whatnot. Not necessarily you personally.

          2) It’s sad that most consider -and appropriately- the Mormon’s as closed off or ‘closed minded’ thinkers. I find it sad because ironically, personal agency (the ability to discern for your own self and choose right from wrong) is a central tenant of their faith. Ha!

          There are few religions in the world where the leaders tell people to ‘study it out in their own minds’ … to ‘think for themselves’ … and claim the right to ‘worship according to the dictates of our own conscious, and extend that same right to every person to believe according to their own dictates’ … But despite that being the call from the very beginning and echoed from the top ranks today, we find many people borrowing on the ‘traditions of their fathers’ with little to no thought for the reality that it could be wrong. With no desire to challenge a notion, the mind becomes stagnant and prone to self-deception.

          Which is why I find it odd that much of the culture of the mormons has become so black and white because the religion itself… if they read their own books and followed it… is designed to prevent ‘blind sheep’ syndrome. Weird.

          3) You’re right that it is absolutely on par to bring it up… and use it! Because they SHOULD be holding themselves to the “higher standards” they publicly lay claim to. But if they are not… then there should be consequences. Wolves have long since operated in sheep’s clothing and I think the church would do well to have its members held socially accountable to the standards they have committed themselves to.

          4) I think the scam world gravitated to Utah and mormons because well

          A) they’re gullible and naive in their youth -and in adulthood- and are easily manipulated. Line up on line, precept upon precept they become scammers without recognizing how far they have come. They are great marks for the IMers pitch (financial security, helping others, yadda yadda yadda), they drop like fly’s.

          B) This previous element is exacerbated by the fact that they are money motivated, because unlike any other faith, the leaders are unpaid. You have to be ‘self sufficient’ in order to be able to dedicate time to service in the church… and when you only follow the path that has been laid out before you without questioning it, then you are also incapable of truly questioning your own motives, as such… capable of doing all the wrong things to make it happen, blinded by the goal.

          C) At this point, they are effectively two faced. And most aren’t even aware of it. Normal members of the church rarely see them in action in their work and only see their ‘church face’. They get validation of all the good they are doing in their church service, further quelling thoughts of disingenuousness. Scammers don’t just flock to charities for the marketing, they do it to soothe a troubled soul. So with their church members and leadership only seeing their ‘good side’ they thrive…

          Sadly, the members labor under their delusions, because as Yoda said so eloquently: Hard to see, the Dark Side is.

          So rock on.

          We’re coming for you Utah. Zion Needs Cleaning.

          TL;DR Their religion is relevant to the conversation, especially because their religion is founded on the responsibility for every individual to exercise their personal agency: to learn how to discern good from evil… yet ironically they don’t. They are a naive and money motivated people, making them easy prey for the scammers ways, becomingscammers themselves. Their service in the church and charity works helps them to continue living the lie. It needs to end. Now.

          By the way (TL;DR stands for Too Lazy; Didn’t Read … it’s a polite way of giving someone a synopsis of what you said… used prevalently on Reddit)

        2. @SD,

          I agree that it is relevant to the issue at hand. There are aspects of the religion that make some super naive and marks for the scam and the missionary experience could surely annihilate all fear of rejection and make a psychopath more dangerous.

          My comment was just to state that all or even a majority of Mormons are scammers or bad people would be a gross misrepresentation.

      2. @Just Sayin…,

        That door to door missionary thing they all do has to be the best ever training for hard selling, it will eventually kill any fear of rejection (which is what keeps most people from doing the hard sell) stone dead.
        And as a by-product, kills any residual conscience stone dead too.

      3. @Just Sayin…,

        I think part of the issue is that the Mormon community is so trusting it lays itself open for this kind of affinity fraud. I’ve seen it over and over and over again. It’s quite distressing. But the church leadership doesn’t give a $#!+ because it is getting that all-important tithing money.

    1. @MaxBenign, So Brent’s never actually internalized any of the ethics classes he’s taken? Why am I not surprised?

    1. @Johnny James ::

      Uhm … fuck off?

      Paste in links to your successful websites … or you’re not welcome here.

    2. @Johnny James ::

      So your non-proxyed IP matches up with the circumstantial evidence … you’re Jamie Lewis.

      It’s so fucking pathetic and hilarious at the same time.

      What you got to say for yourself you waste of human skin? Make it something good … Sean McAlister started off with “I wanted to get caught” … I think you can do better {by which I mean stupider} than that.

      1. @SD, “I didn’t think I’d get caught” work for you? In retrospect, the Jamie Lewis obsession should have made it obvious.

        1. @Johnny James, Why? Why come here and -not- try to hide your identity? I don’t know about you personally, but I do know you run tight with a villainous pack.

          I read the warrior forum thread of your IM with Jamie… While I don’t like some your tone (ie. If you don’t like my style, cancel! … Makes you sound weak) I applaud the fact that you at least handled the responses and criticism in a -relatively- professional tone.

          Then I read your posts here, and you sound like a belligerent teenager.

          I watch that video of you touring your house, and it makes me sick to think someone so young and immature has (if real) access to that kind of money… Dude… Look in the mirror and ask yourself when are you gonna grow up? Listen to yourself. It may be hard, it was for me, but ultimately worth it if you ever hope to be anything more than a joke who people take advantage of because of your money. Hookers and blow are a no go for long you MUST know?!

          Your immature, misogynistic, descriptions of the paintings in your home and all the crude references made me seriously question the validity of a God who could allow a person with the personality of a 13 year old make so much as to have what you do?

          Either it’s all fake… Or humanity is fucked.

          @SD… Is there a prize for guessing the number of shattered dreams it took for him to amass that ish?

          @Jamie Lewis… If you are ‘legit’ then why do you endlessly promote ‘1 click push button commission avalanche robotics on autopilot syphon system’ software hacked from rich dudes who didn’t deserve it but now you have to get it in the hands of the people who need it, before they hack your site and the offer is gone FOREVER!!! Type bullshit?

          What do you have to say about Jeff Walker coaching Andy Jenkins on falsifying product claims?

          What do you think about mike Koenigs coaching Tony Robbins’ team on how to lie?

          What do you think about Mike Filsaime being a gnome?

          What do you think about Frank Kern teaching market manipulation strategies?

          What do you think about Stephen Pierce being counter sued by a mob of angry clients?

          What do you think about Matt Bacak outing his own?

          What do you think about Perry Belchers felony conviction and currently breaking the terms of his parole?

          What do you think of Dan Kennedy’s message that customers are a necessary evil that is best treated -and conditioned- like a herd of animals?

          I’ve got more questions, but that’ll suffice for now.

          I might just take you up on your $1 trial.

            1. @Jack, Not exactly public… But I’m sure Jamie’s heard about it. Mehbe not. Jamie is one of those guys who the gurus keep around for a good laugh(ing at him), buying them drinks and girls (why waste your own money on booze and escorts?), milk off his list, etc. But when it comes down to it, they don’t return his calls, they don’t tell him nothin… Cause he’s really just another b teamer who the ‘community’ has convinced him he’s an a-teamer, right with them. But sadly, what Jamie Lewis has yet to realize is that it doesn’t matter how big his list gets, it doesn’t matter how many micro-niches he’s ‘quietly raking it in’ with… He’s just another resource for his ‘friends’.

              He’s the kid you don’t like, but keep around cause he buys stuff and he takes massive amounts of abuse -bro jokes- and thinks it’s all because he’s a part of the crew.

              Jamie… Wake up! Grow up! Get a real ‘life coach’ … The opposite of what Tim Brownson represents.

              BTW… Where is old Matt -sweating from stage- Bacak? Seems he disappeared off the affiliate stack rankings and he’s been ‘too busy’ to tour the circuit… Hmmm… Weird.


              I hear Brendon DouchHard is still doin well. But turns out his book ‘The Charge’ is really about getting hopped up on vyvance and spouting anything that comes to mind -insert random NeuroScience report- Genious!

              Fuk… I really hate this ‘industry’

            1. @Oops, Ah ha ha ha!

              @Jack… Nice.

              @ Jamie Lewis… WTF?

              @ Jamie Lewis’s Mom… WTF? Get a hold of your kid before child protective services comes knoc Oh wait, he’s how old? Eeesh!

    3. @Johnny James aka @JamieLewis,

      (Thanks goes to @Oops for posting that video below

      Oh, you! Now I recognize you.

      I actually read all of Joe Flatley’s Scamworld [theverge.com] article. And I even watched all the videos.

      Your scammy I-can-make-millionz-and-you-can-too! video appears just under the paragraph that reads

      An Internet Marketer can go on for years like this, continuously rehashing and re-releasing slight variations of the same product. After the launch, there is usually some sort of self-congratulatory video release, where the frazzled-looking marketer addresses a webcam, talking about the amazing success he’s had.

      Oh yeah, Jamie! I can’t wait to quit my job and go werk 4 u! That way, I can have the mucho fun of slimily spamming around the internetz and talkin’ about “sick niches”.

      You say “Never buy a guru product again.” Yet, YOU’RE SETTING YOURSELF UP AS A GURU!!

      No, it’s not a page “like that”. Your main landing page is a page like that

      I would love to post in a picture. But I can’t. Because your site is marked as “Scam/Questionable/Illegal” by my web filter.

      You claim to make $6000 a day. You claim to have a whole staff of helpers. You tell people “Imagine your friends faces when you drive up in a Mercedes AMG.”

      You are doing nothing but hard core, scammy sales. It’s icky to to watch. You say “It’s coaching, but without the coaching.”

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd,

        The (corrected!) link to your site. I don’t mind linking to it. Because I can’t honestly believe anyone surfing in from here is going to buy, and all the links are “no follow” protected AFAIK

  6. You know what’s a really scary scamdustry? The Federal Government’s student loans ‘programs’. Lots of real, accredited degrees are granted to foreigners whose governments pay full price to the greedy school administrations. These foreigners fill up the state schools that are the birthright of Americans. Meanwhile, many Americans use these government loans to enroll in useless, fake majors that prepare them for nothing. And the government doesn’t care if it loans money to people who take worthless courses. What’s worse: most of the 2-year ‘colleges’ that soak up this government money are teaching subjects that, in past years, were taught in high school. How scammy is it that the federal government is insinuating itself into education?

    1. @Orenthal,

      I’ve got to admit, you’ve nailed this form of trolling. Well done you {or not}

      1. @Dr Geek,


        No offense Orenthal, but this blog which is narrowly focused on the scams which it is about may not be the blog about the scams you wish to read about. Just a thought.

        1. @, Orenthal is not as off topic as u think, The .edu industry and call centers are primarily based in Utah and follow the same upsale model as the MMO industry, except the Government is providing the grants that the call centers
          are pushing for Online Universities

        2. @, Orenthal by a stroke of luck is pretty fuckin close to the truth, The . edu industry and a majority of its call centers are based in Utah, The .edu model is almost identical to the MMO model except they push government grants to get credits at online universities ( i.e. Unversity of Phoenix)— The Universities pay the internet marketers and Call Centers

  7. THIS WHOLE STORY BY ERIC WAS WEAK AND CHOPPED HE GOT COLD FEET! Brent Tolman is THRIVE LEARNING INSTITUTE’s attorney and he pads all their pockets!

    THE sad thing is the voters and the public are so lazy and dumb we can expose these crooks, politicians and attorney’s for what they are and it still wont matter because we do nothing!!! the public people are lazy!

    For example John Swallow that guy has more dirt than a 10yr old rug in tossed in a Singapore Alley but he still want the primary votes here in utah 68% to 32% of course reyes is probably greedy himself! BUT ANYONE IS BETTER THAN SHURTLEFF and SWALLOW! SAD AMERICA FUCKING SAD!!!

    WE may need to get the governor’s office involved too…. Oh wait he was playing gold with a bunch of lobbyist “FACT”

    1. @Crazy Utah ::

      I don’t think he got cold feet :: being among the tiny {but hopefully growing} number of dissenters against a multibillion dollar devil is a tricky proposition.

      No one story could ever tell this whole story :: at least he got that jack ass Tolman on the record about this … great first step.

    2. @Crazy Utah, You seem to have a personal problem with Thrive, The truth is Prosper and PMI have in house coaching, they are the most self-reliant, they have been around the longest and control the highest producing lead sources and they each gross about a million every week. Thrive and Applied Knowledge are independent coaching floors they provide fulfillment for many of the shittiest sales floors in Utah, they don’t feel like they are at risk because they are not the ones making the hard sales.

      1. @Pro ::

        Yeah but :: my interpretation of Eric’s article {plus some other stuff} is that fulfillment coaching centers know they aren’t getting a fair taste of the money considering how much of the bullshit and backlash they take … so they start doing their own upsells. But then the sales floors get pissed about not getting all the money :: and then boom … turd fight.

        It’s a risky move :: because it’s true that if you stuck strictly to fulfillment your legal exposure would be much lower … and telemarketing rules might not even apply.

        But more importantly :: if the “coach” is selling :: the whole manipulation sequence is destroyed … and it puts everyone at much increased risk. I don’t wanna be explaining their own bizness to them :: but the “coach” is the cooler … his job is to bore and sweet talk the mark off the edge until they slink away silently … destroyed and blaming themselves. The best kind of cooler coach is one who has no idea he’s the cooler … and lets himself get convinced that he’s “helping people” … which he prolly is a little bit because most of the marks will have almost zero knowledge about the webz or real estate or whatever unicorn thing. “Coaches” can’t have selling incentives … and they should get paid enough that they don’t think about it.

        Stupid fucking conmen :: don’t even know how to be conmen … cause why should they have to learn “the profession” when there’s zero enforcement anyways. Pathetic.

        1. @SD,

          The best kind of cooler coach is one who has no idea he’s the cooler … and lets himself get convinced that he’s “helping people”

          That makes sense. Because only a certain percentage of the population are sociopaths. The way non-sociopaths get wrapped up in all this is drugs (adderal) or self-delusion/self-deception or some other process by which crazy-stupid ideas that used to be on the fringe become main stream, become “normal”. Like “Life Coaching” or aligning ones chakras or Law Of Attracting Suckcess.

          And then, hey, if it doesn’t work… well then, I guess they just didn’t pray hard enough.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @Wyrd,

            I think the process is almost always to let them in on the con slowly so their rationalization can catch up with reality, instead of causing cognitive dissonance.

            Day 1: Congrats! You’re getting paid $8 an hour to fill out paperwork and watch a pep-rally video about our company! Also, your new boss will take you out to lunch! And at a nice place like Chili’s. Isn’t it great here?

            Day 2: You’re gonna be coaching people on using Facebook. You have 600 friends from BYU on your Facebook, so we know you’ll do great. Here’s the script. If you run into any difficult questions, escalate it to Chris and he’ll handle it.

            Day 40: You did great with that Facebook coaching! We’re so proud, we’re gonna move you up to Real Estate coaching, which pays $10 an hour! Here’s your script. Don’t worry about the part where you say that you’ve made thousands of dollars flipping real estate. That just gives them the confidence in you that they need to succeed!

            Day 389: You’ve been doing so great with coaching, we’re going to move you up to Senior Coach, like Chris. You’ll be handling difficult questions and making $15 an hour!

            Day 625: You’re so great with our customers, we want you to do sales! See all the BMWs in the parking lot? All belong to the sales team. Here’s your script . . .

      2. @Pro, actually I don’t like PMI or Prosper either! They are just as bad. They don’t work with people.. They just up sell the shit out of clients for more software and stuff to finish the first thing they bought!

        So they end up buying 4 different things just to complete the original thing they bought! Pretty Pathetic! These coaching floors shouldn’t be allowed to work with a floor unless they are bonded and properly licensed! Just like the coaching floor should be as well..

        The real problem is the Telephone Fraud Prevention Act is so damn broad the government and their lobbyists just play the games to pad their pockets!

        1. @crazy utah,

          Back in March when we learned about Mike Filsaime’s business dealings with PMI and Prosper, I said:

          IMHO, we’ve hit a point with “fierce rules” and lax enforcement where you are more likely to have negative experiences with telemarketing than positive ones . . . When telemarketing is outlawed, only the outlaws will use telemarketing, and they’ll keep using it until they’re indicted.

          I’m open to looser regulations and tighter enforcement. And by tighter enforcement I mean a neutral regulatory party looking into these Utah outfits – not one that’s beholden to the Utah AG.

        2. @crazy utah,

          actually I don’t like PMI or Prosper either! They are just as bad. They don’t work with people..

          They “don’t work with people”? Work with people doing what, keeping them happy until they have no financial recourse?

          So they end up buying 4 different things just to complete the original thing they bought!

          This logic is beyond belief.

          Pretty Pathetic!

          Yeah, I’m pretty much thinking the same thing right now.

  8. All I have to say is THANK YOU! I am a consumer advocate and this is what I’ve been telling people all along, well without all of the cursing to the consumers but I let it all out afterwards! These Utah Scammers need to go down. They’ve even got connections with the FTC to keep them in place. THIS IS BULLSHIT! I have seen peoples lives ruined because of these scammers. I have seen families torn apart, old ladies that cant keep their lights on.. I wanna go Tyler Durden on these bastards and blow them the fuck up!

    1. @CC,

      Steady now – in the UK a man has been jailed for jokingly saying he’d blow up airport (if it wasn’t open in a week’s time,at a time airports were closed by heavy snow fall) on Twitter. (google “Twitter Joke Trial” or the “Jack of Kent” blog for more info)

      So i might be best to avoid mentioning “going Tyler Durden” on them…

      That said, I’d love to find a way to (legally) hurt these companies & individuals. Cold we boycott their campaign donors’ companies (for the elected officials) and boycott their advertisers (for the coaching companies & sales floors)?

  9. I always wondered about Utah, with the heavy (and wealthy) mormon influence, and their fairly closed society. The perfect storm for crony capitalism methinks. Don’t know why they have to get all mucky with the multi-level, boiler room, rebilling, vitamin stuff crapola though.

    oh well, at least most of them gave up having multiple wives, even though they insist on their multiple streams of income. I think they should sell their magic underwear on ebay, at least the buyers would know what they’re getting…

  10. Hey Salty thought you might like this one…. These guys complain about corruption between politics, boiler rooms, The Coaching companies and Utah OBO sales floors….

    UTAH Protects them but not only do State officials have their hand in the pot making money off them and doing so at the expense of young business owners thinking it’s a good old indsutry when it’s not but other states that are normal thank god they won’t allow the corruption!!! KEEP EXPOSING the SCAMS



        1. @Crazy Utah ::

          That’s mostly just pathetic though.

          Look at all those weak ass civil penalties … who could possibly care? This is multi-billion per year “industry” … collecting nickels and dimes counts for NOTHING.

          I’d love to see some state Attorney Generals stepping up … because the FTC is fucking useless.

          1. @SD,

            The AG is useless too…. The Governor is Useless and they all shit were they eat!

            The gov has said nothing for a reason. The more you say the more you incriminate!

            1. @Crazy Utah,

              Just to be clear–we’re talking about the OHIO AG and Governor not the Utah AG and Governor, yes?

            2. @Wyrd,

              Oh no…. sorry the UT AG and Gov are worthless.. I mean look these people…

              They can sit in Utah and have nothing come down on them. But why are companies like Thrive and Apply Banned from states or get hit with sanctions, fines and legit cases from other states like ohio, illinois, az, fl among others?

              Well Utah is a “pay to play” state my friend… But thanks for having me clarify it all blurs from time to time…. just the way politicians like it haha

  11. I’m thinking about that these 3 who now go to head to U.S. jail for a 80 Million Pound/$125,544,000.00 boiler room scheme would be boiler-room D-Players in Utah.

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