Sweating Sacrilege
The Salty Droid is fucking HUGE with the Native American Shaman / Asian Monk type demographic :: everyone who is anyone in the world of ancient mysticism is reading/channeling this blog. Okay :: maybe not :: but at least a couple of them are … it’s called street cred … and I’ve got some. Great comment last week about the Death Ray situation from @InjunSamarai reflecting this perspective. I chatted him up some this week to make sure he wasn’t just bullshitting us {because there are one or two bullshitters around here} :: but he seems like an interesting dude with something to say on this topic. Sweet!
Not everyone likes to read the comments :: special thanks to all the trolls and nut-jobs :: so here’s a reprint of @InjunSamarai’s useful contribution. {It’s been slightly shortened … and I’ve removed all the bits about how awesome I am … because we’re all well aware of that fact. The original comment is here.}
Having apprenticed to a master shaman for over 20 years and having hosted over 120 traditional sweat lodges and countless informal ones, for over 1,200 guests WITH NO INCIDENT I do have some light to shed.
First: A little background – James Ray hosts a modified Lakota Lodge – “White Style” and is considered by many of us the same as a person who wore blackface in the 50’s… He is a mockery, an abuser, and a charlatan. So much so that any tribal person associated with him is considered an outcast… – ostracized back to the casino…
Second: Money has no place in our culture (that whole nonsense about us using beads for money is something the whites ascribed to us because they couldn’t understand our paradigms of non-ownership). …ideas of ownership don’t even merit discussion… – money has no place in our culture.
But beyond that – Exchange, barter, trade have no place in a sweat lodge ceremony – traditional or informal… You wanna contribute, bring some wood… Show up early, help set the lodge… Money is an insult here…
The hosts: A sweat lodge is hosted by two people, plus apprentices. The Water Pourer and the Fire Keeper. Here’s how this works…
The Water Pourer lays the lodge – ALWAYS – this means they pick the branches, decide the exact orientation, and oversee the building of the lodge – ALWAYS – this is their responsibility. Most Water Pourers won’t conduct a sweat in lodge someone else built, unless in special circumstances the builder ‘invites’ them to do so. You can’t pay to use someone elses lodge, that’s absurdity.
Next – the FireKeeper picks the wood, and lays out stones (called: elders, ancient ones, grandfathers, etc… it’s not about the name, it’s about respect for the anceints) for approval. Having kept fire for so many years I can tell you this: FINDING, PICKING, and PRESENTING stones is skill which takes years to learn. It is not to be taken lightly, or else people can get hurt, and it is the responsibility of the fire keeper that the stones don’t hurt people…
But it is the responsibility of the Water Pourer to pick the stones after they have been presented… Make sense? For a lodge like the one this guy hosted, you’d need to heat about 100-150 stones… That’s a lot, way too many. Usually 30-35 is the most a good fire keeper can manage, unless you cycle the stones back into the fire or build multiple pits… The reason for this is that in order to heat that many stones you need a fire so big you wouldn’t be able to get close enough to it get the stones out, plus you’d need to present over 200 stones for the Water Pourer to inspect… At just 10 pounds per stones (10 pounds is small), you’d be presenting over a tons of stones for inspection…
The time involved to would take hours even days for the Water Pourer just to Inspect them all… It’s somewhat absurd. Even thirty stones can take a few hours to lay out and inspect each one…
Why?
You see, good stones are special… Preferably twice heated wind blown granite removed without stirring life… Meaning, you need to hike around, find really dense granite in 5-20 pound chunks with no critters living on, under, or in it. It should be sunbaked and windblown. Then you need to bake it once or twice before it enters a lodge with people in it… Why?
Well I tell you, a good fire gets those stones glowing, red hot… It’s a very cool effect when the red glow of the stones lights that dark lodge up, but that red hot stone is going to get banged around nomatter how hard you try to set it down gently, it’s going to get jostled and dropped, and then splashed with water… So before they are ever presented, we heat them red hot, then smack them into other stones, don’t confuse irreverence with roughness. You need to be rough with those stones days before the people arrive… This takes a lot of time… For a lodge this absurdly big it would take weeks just to get the stones ready… Months to gather them…
Ever seen a red hot stone explode? It’s pretty cool… Much more violent then you might expect… I’ve seen stones blow so hard that they send flaming logs flying out of the fire pit! Better if that occurs without guests around, eh?
Anyways, when you present the stones to the Water Pourer, it means they are all tested and approved, the Water Pourer just picks the best of the best… Imagine trying to prepare over a ton of stones! It can take hours to find even one stone, then hours more to pack it back to the lodge site…
Why is this so important? Well, sunbaked granite is just one of the types of stone we use, there are others but those are the ones we look for most, this process insures the stones are safe and free from toxins… Sulfurs, arsenic, asbestos and other sciencey named stuff I know nothing about, I just know : : : “That stone ain’t right – and – this one is” How do I know a good stone? Because you have to apprentice for years just to tend the fire, years and years more before you pour the water – A fifty year old water pourer is young, not unheard of, but young nonetheless… I know because the elders (the humans ones) taught me how to spot the bad ones, I know because 1,200 people survived lodges I tended fire for without anyone ever even fainting or getting sick…
We can spot the bad stones because we were taught to spot them, not because we send them to labs for approval… Traditional means handed down generation after generation, if someone skips the apprenticeship, it’s not good… You can’t fake this stuff… People’s lives are on the line…
Okay, I go on: The fire keeper is responsible for the wood, the fire, and presenting the stones, heating the stones, and bringing them into the lodge… The wood is a whole ‘nother thing, lots of special stuff goes into it and the making of the fire… It’s a special kind of fire that is built in a special way to force the heat downward into the stones instead of upwards into the sky… It’s a really big hot fire, and it’s actually pretty dangerous because you have to get deep into the center of it to get the stones out… The whole thing is dangerous, not to be taken lightly… But that’s outside the lodge, the people in the lodge are kept far from the dangerous parts… Seriously, a well built fire is easily as hot as any smithies.
But that’s the fire keepers job, and it takes years to learn to do it well – The Water Pourer is responsible for everything else. The Water Pourer is 100% responsible for the lives of all the people in the lodge (even responsible for the fire keepers’)
The fire keeper has to do so much, because the Water Pourer needs to be able to keep the people safe, to focus on the people.
The sweat lodge isn’t about death, you’re not really supposed to go die there. You can die where ever you want, no problem – but for the most part we all agree not to die in the sweat lodge… The Water Pourer and the Fire Keepers won’t let you get too close to death there, that’s part of their job…
You see, sweating is part of our culture, people love the big mystical traditional Lakota sacred sweat, and that’s fine. But for us, we sweat all the time, it’s how we deal with the heat of the dessert summers. Some people use air conditioning, we just spend the mornings and evenings in 160-180 degree sweat lodge and then the 110 degree days feel cool all day… It’s not always such a big ritual, it’s just a normal part of life…
It’s something safe, normal, relaxing, and fun… It’s something we do all the time and by following a few basic guidelines injury’s are really rare…
This person James Ray has done something very bad here, and is now making it even worse.
Okay, so here a few basic traditional guidelines and how this person “James Ray” went against all of them – While claiming to be the keeper of the tradition:
1. A lodge has 10-16 participants (>16 is a tremendous amount of people to watch out for, more than 20 at one time would be “sacrilegious”) 20 is considered a “huge” amount of people
2. Money, barter, exchange of anything other than work and physical contribution is strictly forbidden “Sacrilegious” (pretty much a standing rule for all the North American Tribes regrading sweats) – sort of like charging a guest in your house to use the bathroom…
3. Synthetic Materials are somewhat “Sacrilegious” (standing in stark contrast to the ancient quality of the elders) – but sometimes private lodges are covered with tarps when not in use if the people don’t want to put the stuff away… So it’s sort of mixed bag… I never heard of anyone having tarps on a lodge while it was being used though…
4. The Water Pourer Not Building or overseeing the lodge being built, also once again “Sacrilegious” – building the lodge is the privilege of the Water Pourer, it’s something someone earns after years of doing it, it’s considered an honor.
5. Dieing in the or around the lodge somewhat “Sacrilegious” (always considered the responsibility of the Water Pourer to make sure no one dies) – these people died we don’t want them to feel like they committed sacrilege. They died in good faith trusting their Water Pourer and Fire Keeper. It’s the Water Pourer and Fire Keeper who are responsible.
Note: It really doesn’t mater what the courts say, it is the responsibility of the Water Pourer to keep the lodge. No one else can be at fault. The Water Pourer is the person 100% responsible for everything that happens in and around that lodge, that’s just how it is. No inspection or evidence required: “Who’s the Water Pourer?” that’s all you need to know… The Water Pourer is responsible for everything that happens there.
6. Not inspecting the Stones before heating them, “Sacrilegious”
7. Using stones someone else gathered without them being present: “Sacrilegious”
8. Not letting people open the back of the lodge: “Sacrilegious” <– this is an interesting point here because Mr. Ray said opening the lodge is sacrilege, but the truth is “Preventing people from opening the lodge is sacrilege” the lodges are designed to be opened by anyone, at any spot, at any time.
9. Not gathering, preparing, or even inspecting the wood “Sacrilegious” Can this guy even distinguish Cedar from Pine?
These are simple basic things and this guy has broken almost every normal guideline of a powerful ancient tradition, while simultaneously telling those who followed normal practices they were being Sacrilegious…
What I offer here is this: If a person impersonated a doctor and people died because of what they did, that would be homicide and thus subject to the death penalty. This is no different, this man clearly had no idea about our traditions, impersonated someone who did, and killed people in the process by breaking nearly every safegaurd we normally use…
Worse than negligent, he was impersonating a Sacred Water Pourer and people died under his care, this matter should be subject to death penalty. it is identical in every way to a person impersonating a doctor.
Finally: The Samurai Way… I understand that Mr. Ray combines cultures into a Modern American Hyrbid focused on being OUT OF BALANCE.
According to Samurai tradition, this makes every person in that lodge his Patron. According to those same Samurai traditions: it is the duty, honor, and sole responsibility of the Samurai to protect his patron.
Having failed in his sacred duty and stood idly by as his patrons died, there is one and only one way to restore his family name. He must publicly, and personally commit seppuku… His statement that he is a master of the Bushido tradition necessitates this. Sadly, it is the only ethical solution.
The courts will need someone to blame in order to exonerate him, so already his council has decided on the targeted scapegoat, “The Native American People and their traditions are to Blame”… So as this O.J.’s out, at least the readers of the Droid can reflect back on this entry and remember “James Ray has absolutely nothing to do with Native American or Samurai Traditions in any way.” No matter what the courts decide.
Nice :: Seppuku FTW!
>> bleep bloop
-------------More fabulously hilarious writing ::
- Objection! I strenuously object! {indignantly throws some papers and stuffs onto the floor}...
- James Ray Trial Tweets :: April 6th Legal arguments about admissibility of prior sweat lodges...
- James Arthur Ray :: Manslaughterer James Arthur Ray :: aka Death Ray :: arrested...
- Who’s Your Daddy? Oh Noes!! In terrible news for fans of stealing...
- James Ray Trial Trucs :: April 22nd Michael Hamilton :: owner of the Angel Valley Fake...
:: read one now before you die of stupid.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-24
[Reply]
Tom Porky Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
@VOR,
I am aware of a Dec 1st FTC change but know nothing about FCC Dec 1 changes. Since you are so wise could you please fill us in on those FCC changes!!
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
the voice of reason Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-20
[Reply]
McFly Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Lighten up, VOR. It is SD’s blog, and even if you think the James Ray stuff is repetitive, it is still topical to somne, and his choice. Also, there is nothing to prevent you from commenting on the other topics you are interested in. Remember that when you add a comment to an existing post, it moves it back into view. It’s not like anything is being swept under the carpet or forgotten. And knowing how these internet marketers operate, you can expect Salty will be writing about most of them again when they do something else outrageous.
WINNER!! ::
+14
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I am a new reader – since yesterday, of SaltyDroid and am glad for this post, or I would have missed it otherwise.
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Hey SD,
Check out the description of a sweatlodge here (Thanks Cassandra Yorgey and RWRenfrew): http://bit.ly/71w44h
Somehow, her description is not as reverent or detailed as @InjunSamarai. I wonder if she is “authentic” or if Ms. Jaclyn is another plastic shaman?
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
@Dave –
I think you comment merits a peak behind the scenes. When this tragedy took place, the tribal elders asked everyone to keep quiet until they had a solid read on what the authorities were going to do…
Now, after almost four months and no criminal charges, the Lakota Nation has empowered a brother named Long Black Cat to push for resolution and file federal charges against James Ray and Angel Valley…
With this decision, they sent out a new message (in writing) to any and everyone who cares, “Speak Up! Any where, any time, any way possible – keep the focus going, do not let this tragedy fade without resolution.”
I feel like this is worth mentioning, because Ms. Jaclyn’s post is dated January 22nd, 2010… She posted her extremely detailed description just after the word “Speak Up” was passed around the community…
Now, with regards to her validity, all I can offer is my opinion: Her description is a very detailed and precise description of the traditional “Sweat of the White Buffalo Calf Woman” which was created 19 generations ago and passed down, master to apprentice in a largely unmodified form all these years… In many circles this is modernly referred to as “The Lakota Style Sweat”
Ms. Jaclyn’s description is very detailed and precise and on every level compliments the shorterned version I shared (remember, it usually takes 8-12 years of continual apprenticeship before one pours water, there are endless little details, and I feel she does an excellent job of sharing things in a style which makes them easy for someone unfamiliar with the traditions to understand)…
One thing she describes is the “Rock Cradle”, I didn’t describe it because it’s somewhat hard to describe, and to me it’s a really sacred element… In my book, if she knows about it, understands it, and can build it, she’s someone I’d trust.
Here I will share my description of this Sacred (somewhat secret) element to you: What she calls the cradle, I call “the raft” (because it looks like a wooden raft), it’s the one element that makes certain James Ray’s sweat was not in accordance with anything traditional… The size and scope of his sweat would make it physically impossible to make a proper cradle. It literally could not be done and still be able to get the stones out of it…
The cradle, or the raft, is hardwood branches lined up like a raft, then the rocks go on top of that (the stones are suspended in the air above the ground)… If you build it correctly, you create a very special and unusual fire, an extremely impressive ‘Mystical’ fire to behold…
Here’s why: the raft creates an airspace under the stones, a channel of air is set in the middle of the stones, then the fire is built all around… Sacred woods can then be placed under the raft to purify the stones as their smoke infuses them. But here’s what makes the fire so special – when built properly, it creates air currents which cause the fire to swirls outward, and then downward under the raft before coming up through the stones and out the top…
In all you’re life you may never see flames turning and going downwards anywhere else. It is very difficult to do correctly, because the wood burns and the fire, plus the air currents change shape, so the air channels you create must evolve as the fire evolves.
Done correctly, this creates a hoop of fire swirling upward, outward, downward, and then underneath itself, back into the middle, where it creates a cyclone swirl coming out the top, they then swirling into the sky…
When perfectly laid, this looks like a flaming ring of fire with a flaming swirling plume coming out the top, sometimes upwards of fifteen to twenty feet!
Imagine a 3 foot diameter tornado of fire raising 20 feet out the top of a pile of stones, the slightest wind can cause that plume to be very dangerous…
This effect is captivating and adds to the sanctity of the event, it is a totally captivating and awe inspiring fire to be around (a sacred fire), then add the fire keepers to your mental image, clad only in loin clothes disappearing into that fire… A fire so hot it holds you at bay ten feet away. We wear water soaked loin clothes, because any clothing could easily catch fire and burn us.
You see, as we tend to this massive mystical fire, we must enter it to get the stones out one by one… You can imagine the visual impact of this, 8 foot diameter fire, lapping fifteen feet in the air, and naked except for a loin cloth your fire keeper emerges from it with a red hot glowing stone…
The visual impact and seriousness of that action is part of the sanctity of the event… As if to say, “You are safe here, we know what we are doing, we respect these sacred elements and dance with them humbly.”
Here’s why this matters so much to me (pride of craftmanship aside) James Ray’s sweat would have required fire almost 8 times as large as a normal one, a full truck load of stones… How could you get a stone raft (cradle) to support a truckload of stones? How could you create a sacred fire of that size and be able to get anywhere near it? it would literally melt flame retardant suits…
Imagine, if you will – a fire 8 times as large, a tornado of flame 25 feet in diameter lapping 100 feet into air… We’re not talking about loosing arm and chest hair here, we’re talking about a flame that would tear flesh from bone… A tiny shift in the wind could kill everyone within 50 feet of that fire, let alone the fire keepers who could never enter it to grab the stones… it is simply not possible to do what he attempted to do without putting people in serious risk of death…
You could not do what he did without seriously risking the safety of everyone involved. His negligence, arrogance, and disregard for human life caused these deaths.
He did not treat the fire, the stones, the lodge, or the people within that lodge with even a semblance of sanctity.
From the moment he conceived of these high dollar retreats he disregarded human life… His disregard for tradition and his disrespect to all of those who honor these traditions are serious things, but those offenses pale in comparison to his utter disregard for the safety of those people who entrusted him with their lives.
With regards to Ms. Jaclyn, her words and timing tell me that she she totally understands this, she sounds reverent and detail orientated, if she hosted a sweat in my region, I would go… It would be nice to let someone else be responsible and while I relax and enjoy the sweat, confident that I and everyone else there is completely 100% safe under the watchful eye of someone who truly honors life…
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Militant NDN Reply:
December 14th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
@Injun Samurai, Mystical fires! Please! You’ve watched Dances with Wolves one too many times and it fried your brain. You’re full of shit. Get over yourself. You’re just another white wannabe who knows NOTHING!
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
I’m glad you answered that question @Injun :: cause I’ll admit to knowing diddly-squat about this topic until last week.
[Reply]
Militan NDN (Tom) Reply:
December 14th, 2010 at 10:58 pm
@SD, You still know didly squat. Are you really that stupid to think that anyone calling himself “Injun” would be legit? How many people go around calling themselves an offensive ethnic slur? Only a white man uses a handle like that and only a pathetic, wannabe white man makes up bullshit about mystical fires. You don’t check out someone claiming to be an expert on anything Native American by talking to him. Your indoctrination prevents you from seeing a fraud. You find out his legal name and his tribal affiliation and you CONTACT the tribe he claims to be (mis)representing. It is irresponsible journalism to post his bullshit on the internet. There are already enough charlans and hucksters out there pretending to know about ‘traditional sweats’. Samurai Injun is a BIG, BIG fraud. If you knew any indigenous ppl, you could have asked them to put the skin-dar out on this fake ass bullshit artist. You fucked up, droid.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
December 15th, 2010 at 3:20 am
@Militan NDN (Tom)
“How many people go around calling themselves an offensive ethnic slur?”
Uhmmm … lots? It’s kind of like a whole cultural phenomena … look it up.
I’m sorry I’ve violated your restrictive skin-tone policies … but I try not to racially profile commenters unless I think it’s required for the safety of the the other passagers.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
December 15th, 2010 at 4:30 am
@Militan NDN (Tom),
Sure it’s difficult to tell if someone is authentic with this stuff, and I’d be open to other statements about injun’s authenticity purely because of my own lack of knowledge of the subject.
But you’re claiming knowledge without offering anything to back it up, without declaring what your interest in the matter is, and without sharing what exactly makes you qualified to call him a fake.
Most of injun’s comment above was purely his take on someone else’s writings, not even his own ideas. So are you also saying that that other person is also a fake? And why?
If “Samurai Injun is a BIG, BIG fraud” how about you back up that statement with maybe a fact or two? Or suggest what other motivation he had in posting here? I mean it seriously – I don’t know the guy at all, he might have some financial operation going and trying to establish himself as an expert somewhere for financial gain.
But you can’t just call someone a BIG BIG fraud and expect everyone to simply take your word for it.
I will call you an idiot for failing to back that up in the first place, and if you can’t back it up now with some decent hard facts, I will call you a BIGGER BIGGER fraud and a complete fucking idiotic concern troll who is probably in love with Death Ray.
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Sweet! Voting buttons. So long FGCT/VOR/punk/troll.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
One can hope!
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Hey @vor, get your own blog, maybe you’ll be able to siphon off some of Salty’s readers.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
He can haz all the ones that are mostly interested in hearing someone talk about themselves … and how fucking faux glorious they are. I know there is a strong demand in the market right now for self-deluded narcissism.
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The pic at the top of this post really highlights the absurdity of all this. It shows the traditional, historic sweat lodge, as intended. Then, you see the James Ray sweat lodge. What a contrast! By comparison, the James Ray “poser” sweat lodge looks like some kind of cheesy, discount made-in-china swimming pool toy. On top of all that, to think those people paid thousands and thousands of dollars to participate in the make-believe version. It’s both amazing and sad.
WINNER!! ::
+7
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I for one am grateful that my country’s indigenous people’s ceremonies haven’t been ripped off as badly as the USA’s. Mind you there is a lot of spearing the the legs, circumcision with sharp rocks, and skin slashing in ours that I can’t see any “white tribal leader” trying to milk for cash
[Reply]
Fanny Spanker Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
err dude… why is there a guy gravatar on my post. It’s the wrong sex for a start
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This goes to the heart of the James Ray case. He claims he was running a sweat lodge and what happened was just bad luck and the responsibility of someone else (the person he hired to build the sweat lodge (sic))
This detailed description of what constitutes a legitimate sweat lodge ceremony blows that story out of the water. A sweat lodge is not a New Age sauna/income opportunity for personal development gurus. Ray was no more qualified to run a sweat lodge than you or I would be to conduct a Catholic Mass.
Sacrilege is the right word and in this case a sacrilege that lead to death.
WINNER!! ::
+14
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I for one am not tired of this topic at all. This is a fascinating case, and I am learning a lot.
It’s Salty Droid’s blog, and he can post what he wants. Those who find it boring are free to go elsewhere.
I like a good discussion as much as the next person, but I would prefer to debate the actual issues.
Muchly debated. What do you think?
+3
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@InjunSamarai,
Thanks for the great explanation!!
In the picture, the people entering James Ray’s lodge appear physically unfit. Isn’t part of your tradition, care for your body? Seems this would be necessary in order to tolerate the stress of a sweat lodge. Very important not to be dehydrated going in. Also important to know how to control breathing and heart rate. I would be interested in reading your thoughts on this.
[Reply]
Duff Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Some of the people who died were very fit according to news reports, including one woman who was a regular surfer.
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This guy needs to appear before a court and be judged on his conscience like NOW. Like most of those secret dickheads, they have a limitless supply of stupid. The ozzie guy seems to be running real short on success and limitless money so hes madly trying to find idiots to join him for a year of stupid for a stupid price for certain. I guess thats what happens when you owe the authorities stupid money for not paying your honest debts and publicly claiming to be a world expert on stupidnessitis. These guys should hold a rompernet weekend on stupid and see who survives. They are all a bunch of losers who cant keep their slimy hands out of the money jar, not only their own but everyone elses also. Ray…bad luck, what a fucking wanker.
[Reply]
To Jojo:
I agree that James Ray needs to be in court, but not to be judged on his conscience. He has to answer for his behavior.
Even if he cared nothing for the participants of his seminars, if he had BEHAVED APPROPRIATELY, none of this would have happened.
I would venture to guess that a lot of people don’t actually care about their clients, but they act responsibly, do the right thing, and nobody gets hurt. That’s just protecting their own self-interest in the long run.
Which is why this case is so interesting. It’s obvious that James Ray didn’t give two shits about these people. However, if he wanted to keep being adored by his followers and making zillions of dollars, he should have protected these folks to protect HIMSELF.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
@Hippo :: Great point.
Convince others that you are a God … rule the world.
Convince yourself that you are a God … you’re effing doomed.
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And speaking of James Ray, OMG, there’s an interview from January 24 in New York Magazine where he just spins everything in his favor. It’s online.
His level of bullshit/denial is amazing.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 9:41 am
The interview is here
http://nymag.com/news/features/63259/
But it’s so tepid you’d think he was accused of riding his bicycle on the pavement or walking on the grass. Of course he keeps trying to identify himself as a victim – “it’s been hard for me and for the families”, and wants “some sort of closure” for the incident.
Rereading Samurai’s statement it hits me again how symbolic all Ray’s “sacrilege” stuff is. The participants were prepared to act honorably, regardless of the consequences. Ray was exploiting this to prop up his own authority.
Interesting to hear that even if no one had died, the only person who was commiting “sacrilege” was Ray himself.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 10:04 am
To Yakaru:
I do love the way he keeps “trying to get to the bottom of” what happened.
I know that none of this is funny, but that assertion almost makes me laugh.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
It would be high comedy if it weren’t so appalling. And why give an interview with your lawyers butting in every two minutes to stop him answering a question. Either give an interview or don’t. The New Yorker should’ve asked him proper questions and refused to publish it if he doesn’t answer.
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Check out this article about “James Ray” finally “opening up” (yeah, right). Talk about spin!
But ESPECIALLY, look at the B.S. comments that are obviously from Ray supporters/insiders. There is some serious VICTIM BASHING! Unbelievable.
I hope everyone reading this will go there right now and help balance out those sickening one-sided comments:
http://nymag.com/news/features/63259/
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
To Vomitus:
Gosh, I only saw ONE pro-Ray comment, all the rest were against him.
I wonder if some folks have removed their comments? When I checked, there were about 15 comments blasting James Ray, and only one supporting him.
I was going to write something, but all of the major points had already been covered.
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Vomitus Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 11:52 pm
I’m glad to see that. It was pretty obvious the fan club was there initially.
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Any Native American ceremony will vary from tribe to tribe. Tribes are Nations; some are closely related, others have little in common. I’ve been in different sweats run by people from different tribes. Each one is different in the details. But one thing for sure, none are stressful. Just the opposite. You feel good from it. You’re supposed to.It’s not an endurance test. You don’t have to be in shape,you just have to know your limits. That’s why between rounds everyone comes out to sit around, go to the bathroom if necessary, and drink water from a bucket with a ladle. Oh,yeah and joke and Laugh! No Indian event is complete without Indian humor. Aye!
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is this a joke, or are you basing your comments on facts
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You mean the part about humor or the sweat experience? That’s from first-hand experience at several sweats. If you’re wondering about Indian humor, go to a powwow and see for yourself. The master of ceremonies is hired for his jokes and people joke and laugh a lot. Indians love to laugh and tease. The myth of the austere, serious Hollywood Indian was publicly debunked years ago in Vine Deloria’s “Custer Died for Your Sins”.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I wanted to echo Jean D’s sentiment…
Salty is the first major media person who really stopped and said “James Ray is talking about sacrilege, but in a traditional sense, wasn’t almost everything he did sacrilegious?”
This post is was meant to address that fact, that in a traditional sense (he claimed to be a traditionally trained Shaman), James Ray was utterly sacrilegious on every level…
But Jean brings up a really important aspect, that I tried to touch on in what I wrote: “The Traditional Plains Style Sweat is far more the rarity than the norm…”
The Lakota Nation, as they take this to Federal Court are trying to make that point clear to everyone, “You can sweat however you want. No restrictions or regulations can possibly apply to this tradition because it is so vast in its expression. The only Universal that must apply is accountability for your actions, not ritualistic adherence.”
Personally, having hosted and taken part in hundreds of sweats, I’d estimate 9 times out of 10, a sweat is casual, playful, entertaining, and refreshing… The big fire, the big ritual, the traditional sweat we do maybe 4 to 10 times a year, but we sweat much more than that… often times it’s very casual and informal, I even know Native Americans with Swedish style outdoor wooden sweat lodges and others with indoor American Style Suanas, very casual…
With regards to health and fitness, from first hand experience, I have hosted traditional sweats with people well into their 80′s, obese people, invalids, people sick with cancer, and many other maladies… Under the watchful eye of a good Water Pourer and Fire Keeper, the most strenuous part for them is sitting on the ground(literally)…
A Water Pourer once told me “The sweat can only ever be as hot as the weakest person in the lodge dictates.” There are so many ways we regulate the heat, you’d be really surprised by our ability to precisely control the environment…
The sweat itself is such a common thing as to be universal… The spectrum ranges from a massive ritual with huge amounts of preparation to a Wednesday afternoon during lunch casual sweat at the local gym…
Now, for perspective sake: Imagine this scenario – remove anything indigenous, remove any aspect of ritual, remove any prayer, worship, or sacredness and change the setting to the Steam Room of a local Gym… James Ray leads 64 people into that steam room, they each pay $10k for his expertise and guidance, he tells them that he will take them to the brink of death, but will make sure they are all safe… He cranks the heat to its limits, the room is overcrowded, people start vomiting and fainting, screaming for their lives, begging to be carried out of the lodge… He tells them it’s part of the healing process, he promises them they’ll be okay, he tells them that on the other side of the pain is the healing, they just need to push through…
In that Steam Room, the situation worsens, 20 of them are now unconscious, unable to leave under their own power… People are begging him to help them carry out the unconscious people… He tells them that loosing consciousness is part of the process as he stands near the door (the only one in there getting fresh air), he tells them that leaving is sacrilegious, he refuses to help carry out the unconscious people, he refusing to end the exercise…
Finally he opens the door and twenty people are taken away in ambulances, three are dead inside the sauna…
James, calm in his conviction that he is still the expert says: “Well clearly the Steam Room was faulty.”
This all has nothing to do with traditional ritual, that is what my original post was about, to contrast how far from traditional ways this man is… What he did was no different than leading people into a Steam Room at the local gym, then cook them to death after they fainted.
Nothing can ever reverse what he has done.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Very well put.
The thing that is often missing from media discussions from this is that Ray was building up his position of authority over his victims by identifying himself with respected traditions and using his phoney concept of “sacrilege” to kick heads.
Now he is trying to do it again in a different way, by saying it was a normal, routine “traditional” sweat like his injun mates do, which went mysteriously wrong. In other words, he’s effectively dragging the whole concept of the sweat lodge through the dirt, hoping to use it for cover.
As Injun Samurai points out, the last thing Ray wants is for it to be seen stripped of the spiritual smoke screen.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Great points.
Let me add that the steam room should have a very low ceiling :: be pitch black :: have no ventilation :: and it should be insanely lined with plastics.
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Hippo Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
To Injun:
You brought up an excellent point–the lodge can only be as hot as the weakest participant.
So where did James Ray take a detailed inventory and health history of each person so that he would know exactly what would be appropriate?
Oh wait, he didn’t do that. He made a sweat lodge out of a Wal-Mart swimming pool, and just improvised as he went along.
Then three people died and he can’t figure out what went wrong, so he takes three months “trying to get to the bottom of it.”
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That’s right Salty..Sweat Lodges don’t kill people..People kill People..
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Uh oh Salty Droid, @Injun Samarai I accidentally gave a thumbs down instead of a thumbs up. Sorry about that! I liked that you clarified the variations in sweats. It’s so true that people like Ray will dream up anything to control,hurt and kill people. Look at the history of guys like him, posers of different traditions. They find a way to round up victims.
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Hi All,
I enjoyed the traditionally trained posters. It felt good to read, and reopened my heart to Gratitude and Life. The Water Pourer is ultimately responsible for all the people in the Ceremony. I am grateful for every one of them.
All but a few Lodges I participated in, were Great. There was a couple that were sickness inducing. Those 2 Lodges were led by very angry people, who were sure of their spiritually advanced abilities. They hung out with some famous Indians and were not trained by Medicine men or women to pour Lodges. There was NO shamanic training either.
I’ve been to 50 or 60 Sweats over the last 10 years, maybe more. I prefer Sun-Dancer led Inipi’s , personally.
Many cultures have Sweat Inducing ceremonies to become purified.
I am thankful for the few healing Sweats I’ve poured, wild and woolly as a couple of them were. I’ve no sense of Ray being shamanically trained.
Shamans’ journey, extract negative energies,conduct soul retrievals, counter-sorcery, help beings cross over, and do Depossession. My experience has been they are integrally, consciously knowing, they are a part of all life. I am tickled to be able to Sweat in my own back yard this week.
Hopefully Ray will be honest enough to accept responsibility or own his poor connection to Great Mystery or Spirit, which led to people dieing, under his leadership. In stead he has great attorneys and spin. Maybe after the trial, he can or will choose to be truthful.
blessings
Jack
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I find a bit of solace knowing that something from the heart still occurs between two people trying to meet on a spiritual level.I have come to embrace that to truly benefit from my actions I must give them away. Then I will have something that can’t be stolen.
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We have been taught these rules: Keep your mouth shut, your ears and eyes open. Wade Crowe, enrolled with the Yanktonai Hunkpati Dakota Sioux of Crow Creek, South Dakota.
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I’m new to the Salty Droid and I’ve got to say, I love this blog! I’ve never heard of James Ray but quite frankly, the guy shouldn’t be allowed to get away with what he’s done. And although I’m not Native American, I can feel outraged at the principle. It’s time individuals were punished for THEIR own actions, instead of being allowed to blame cultures and other influences.
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Nobody calling himself “Injun Samurai” is a legit NDN. Everything he’s posted is bullshit. It’s shocking to see how easily these gullible nons are fooled by any white guy who can present himself as an expert from a Western perspective. Believing frauds like James Ray and believing wannabes like “Injun Samurai” is the same type of hyper-credibility that killed 3 people.
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