The White{Trash} Papers
James Arthur Ray :: and his herpes infested tongue :: has been refusing to answer questions for several months now. You might think that’s because he’s a spineless fucking coward and the hypocrite of the century … and you’d be right.
But Death Ray has been doing his own O.J. style “investigation” into the deaths he knows he caused. This week saw the release of two “white papers” which are the first work product from that fake-hunt for truth. “White Papers” is a strange way to describe what turns out to be letters from your criminal defense attorneys to the Sheriff about how you are super innocent in spite of all of the horrible FACTS. But James Ray is not a man attached to words and their natural meanings …
Quantum Physics = The energy of numerology + a can of spray on tan + “a rate of vibration”
Whatever! Shut up idiot.
Our friend RWRenfrew is much less ridiculous :: and described the situation with the letters quite accurately on our own comments ::
“Law enforcement has so much corroborated evidence from witnesses that speaks to Ray being at fault, that they cannot take those letters from defense lawyers as being correct.
The ‘white papers’/ letters from defense to the prosecutor was an attempt to build a case for not bringing charges against Ray at all – they wanted to present information that would convince the prosecutor he could not prove a case against Ray and could not win if he did.
Keep in mind that the prosecutor and law enforcement have collected far more information than defense lawyers have at their disposal. To date, there have been no charges, so there is no question of discovery – in other words, the prosecutor has not turned over evidence to the defense as it is premature when there is no indictment. Once a case is filed by prosecutors, each side serves interrogatories (written questions) on the other. Each side will also demand ‘discovery’ from the other. This is standard procedure.
Discovery demands by the defense would include copies of all evidence gathered by law enforcement including copies of all police reports,autopsies, items seized, etc. They need to see what the prosecution has in order to build their case.
Prosecutors will demand all books and records of Ray and his company, as well as all communication including e-mails and diaries, calendars, etc., from both Ray and his company, among many other things.
Bottom line: Defense attorneys wrote the first letter to prosecutors at a time when they did not have the benefit of the police reports, search warrants, witness statements, etc., that were made public by court order. As a result, they did their best to make a convincing case to the prosecutor working with what they had.
As an aside, defense attorneys write this kind of letter to prosecutors pretty routinely.”
Exactly! And now I don’t have to say any of that boring shit myself.
Death Ray paid a fortune to have these letters drafted by exorbitantly high priced attorneys. The same attorneys who are going to suck up every last penny of his money so that the victims get nothing but misery. Three cheers for farcical justice!
As much as I loved these letters :: they were in need of some improvement. Namely :: they came to the conclusion that Death Ray was something other than a horrible fuckwad. I beg to differ … and so … presenting The Salty Droid’s mark-up of the first white paper {the long one}.
I hope the good people over at Munger, Tolles & Olson will accept some of my changes before their next draft :: and I hope you people have the sophistication {and proper software} to find humor in a sixteen page satire of a legal mark-up. Oy Vey! What was I thinking?
>> bleep bloop
-------------More fabulously hilarious writing ::
- Sentencing in Single Sentences James Arthur Ray :: frumpy parasite :: is going...
- Objection! I strenuously object! {indignantly throws some papers and stuffs onto the floor}...
- The Ray Delay James Arthur Ray’s trial for the reckless and horrible...
- The Haunting of Angel Valley Business has been slow lately at the Angel Valley...
- James Arthur Ray :: Always Be Closing Final days in the trying trial of semi-professional manipulator...
:: read one now before you die of stupid.
It would be cheaper for Ray to just go with “The Twinkie Defense.”
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Nicely done. Death Ray legal team attempts to finagle an escape from justice = FAIL.
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Brilliant.
It still would’ve been funny as it was, though. “No amount of thinking will turn a pizza into a salad”….right. How much are you guys getting paid? Or maybe that was the best quote they could find. Certainly the most sensible thing I’ve ever heard from Ray.
Looks to me like they’ve unwittingly shot themselves in the foot. Really funny is their insistance that Ray “only played God on one occasion” – not realising that it’s in the witness statements that that “one occasion” lasted for SIX HOURS. Expect that to be worded differently in future.
Also this:
“The evidence would show that Mr Ray and numerous others who sat through the sweat lodge had no idea of the problems suffered by some of the participants (like about half of them) until the ceremony was over….unfortunately no one there was an emergency until it was too late.”
That is probably true. He didn’t have the faintest idea what was going on and, from the witness statements it’s clear it was completely up to participants to notice whether or not someone was breathing, to decide whether their symptoms were deadly or only apprently deadly as ray told them to expect. The vast majority of them had never done a sweat lodge. They thought it was normal but just shocking and scary watching people pass out and making gurgling noises. It was pitch black, crowded, difficult to move. They’d been told they would go into an altered state, and interperted their symptoms as “normal for a sweat lodge”. They’d been told to focus on themselves.
Many came out totally disoriented and yet somehow they managed among themselves to organize helping each other, checking on each other. For some reason Ray did not consider that as being part of his job. Some participants seem to have taken decisive action that saved lives, one saved one and lost his own life trying to save another.
But, as Ray’s lawyers make clear, Ray does not consider that kind of thing part of his role.
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I like the way that Cassandra Yorgey calls a spade a spade: “White Papers” = “Flaming Bags of Crap.”
Well said!
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Yakaru Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
This also isn’t bad, from a former prosecutor:
“…(The law) is not defined this way, but it allows for extreme stupidity to be criminally prosecuted.”
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/01/14/20100114sweatlodgeresponse0114.html
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I wonder how long until Death Ray releases his book titled:
“How I would’ve done it.”
With the subtitle:
“Had I been responsible for the deaths of 4 people while they were attending my seminars, which I’m not, I would’ve done it like this. Hey, it’s not my fault. I only encouraged people that had been starved and dehydrated for days prior to decide, of their own accord, that it was in their best harmonic interest to go back into a sweat lodge and bake to death. How was I supposed to know that they could’ve died? Not that I’m admitting to anything or anything like that.”
I’m sure it’ll sell like O.J.’s book and also be featured on Oprah as “the real secret”
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At first glance, I thought they mustn’t have been real lawyers. A death waiver? I don’t know enough about the legal system over in America, but fairly sure you can’t absolve responsibility from death with a T&Cs page. Total waste of the reader’s time.
Then I read the mentions to the nurse. Firstly, they argue that JRI wasn’t negligent because they had a nurse on site, and it’s implied that this is evidence of JRIs proactivity in preventing accidents/death. Later, we learn that they in fact “accepted” free labour from one who also happened to be a JRI follower.
Even the legalese can’t cloud the fact that JRI wouldn’t have actually spent a few hundred dollars on a nurse (overheads are high enough…what with oranges and watermelons to provide) – they just got lucky when one was crazy enough to volunteer.
Nice spin on the reality that a megalomaniac “accepted” unpaid labour from a cult follower. I take it back – they’re lawyers through and through!
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Juris Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Some are missing the point here. The letters are designed to minimize damage from both a criminal and civil liability standpoint. Yes, Ray doesn’t want to be indicted. However, his attorneys are also gearing up their defense in the civil suits that will arise from the deaths and injuries. What might not mean much to a district attorney deciding whether or not to prosecute will mean something to a personal injury law firm weighing the benefits of investing six to seven figures of the firm’s money into a contingency fee case.
Remember that despite O.J. Simpson’s criminal acquittal, he was still found liable in the subsequent civil case for $33 million in damages.
At this point, you will probably see assets (like the house) being liquidated to pay the attorneys and to transfer the remainder outside of the U.S. into jurisdictions where they cannot be touched to pay civil damages.
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SD Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
Two counter points to that:
1. It’s too late to put off the civil attorneys. If they wanted to do that … then Fabiani and the other PR whores should have done something within the first couple of weeks. There are already five plaintiffs attorneys on the case … and I’d say they all know that JRI insolvency is a risk … and are committed to going through anyway becuase this situation is so horrible and disgusting {and because of the free press … but let’s not be cynical}.
2. I’ll bet the house is the opposite of an asset … and that it ends up on Citigroup’s hefty REO list.
Notice: The criminal attorneys get a free pass from me. But whoever takes his civil cases to trial had better adjust to me kicking their ass a couple times a week. And I know EXACTLY how to make overachieving lawyers feel insecure and neurotic … as it’s one of my downtime hobbies.
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James Ray blaming the facility for this is like blaming the rental firm that provides the folding chairs for parties. He was in charge, he called the shots, and it was HIS event, period. Nice try at spin, but what rational person is going to believe all that rhetoric?
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Cassandra Yorgey Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 10:32 am
I’d say it’s more like renting a charcoal grill and then saying it’s the rental company’s fault that you decided to chop up people and cook them on the grill… I mean, they should have put cannibalism PRECAUTIONS on that grill.
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Via :: http://twitter.com/GenuineAmyHall
“Lawrence’s behavior changed as the course progressed, and in the hours before her death, grew particularly childlike, to the point where she could no longer dress herself. Over the span of a few days, she began to forget basic things such as her favorite song, tried to command the family dog with her mind and spoke of a fear of death.
On her last day alive, co-workers recall she became increasingly erratic and placed dozens of calls to Turning Point officials. The normally shy and quiet woman then stripped off her clothes, screamed at and shoved her supervisor, burst into song and dove out the window.
An autopsy found no drugs or alcohol in her system, and she had no history of mental illness.”
Sounds familiar yes? :: http://bit.ly/4Xd3a9
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have you thought of this Reply:
January 21st, 2010 at 8:59 pm
they found no drugs…but do they test for HU201 and JWH018?
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Hi Droid,
After reading all of this… and noticing that JRI is blaming Angel Valley for the deaths… I can’t help but wonder why JRI has Spiritual Warrior scheduled for 2010 AT ANGEL VALLEY. (They killed them last year… so let’s give them another chance?)
Yea! for Australia, paving the way and making self help seminars responsible for the injuries they cause. Maybe now the US will step up and do the same thing!
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SD Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Ha :: good point Amy. I guess he’s already forgiven them for putting “arsenic” on the grandfathers and ruining his life. What a cool guy.
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rwr Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 1:32 am
What kind of person would think ANYONE would sign up to attend, knowing what Ray did to the dead and injured?
A narcissist?
A sociopath?
… Satan?
(Apologies to Dana Carvey)
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Joe Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 1:55 am
You gotta wonder. But if you look at his twitter account, he’s still got a lot of supporters who don’t seem to give a flip about what any of his detractors are saying.
Just consider some of the “disgraced” preachers out there who have come back and picked up many of their old followers.
Oddly, notoriety sometimes makes people even more appealing to certain segments of the population. Hard to figure.
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SD Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 2:16 am
I’ll bet Angel Valley would shoot him dead on site. It sounds from the paperwork like they’ve refused to say a single word to him since he chickenshit hightailed it out of there {and then immediately started blaming them}.
What is strange to me is that the fancy pants PR whores haven’t taken those products down yet. It should have been crisis management step one. Lots of the TV stories have used the fact that the death causing products are still listed as a pretty effective “burn.”
It’s ludicrous because that is NOT how he makes sales anyway. You sign up for the non-free seminars at another seminars. Not from home :: over the web :: when you are in your pajamas and right mind. He still has “supporters” maybe … in the platitudes department. But people don’t buy tickets to a game that might get rained out … too much of a hassle. And if it’s a $4000 game … forget about it.
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I was wondering the same thing..Why would Angel Valley open themselves up to any more liablity or want anything to do with this guy since James Arthur Ray is throwing them under the bus..
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Joe Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Maybe there was already a previous contractual agreement, but JR’s promotion had yet to take place.
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rwr Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
No court would penalize them for breaking such a contract, if one exists. Indeed, Angel Valley could argue that James Ray, through his actions, unilaterally abrogated any contract between them.
My feeling is that it shows on Ray’s site, unknown to Angel Valley.
Of course, someone could call them for comment.
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Joe Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
I can see why JR might want to have it there: limited options. Given what happened, what other venue would want to touch him now? I still think that Angel Valley had some other pressure exerted (previous contract or something we aren’t aware of). I’m sure they’d prefer not to be connected to that kind of publicity.
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If you weren’t a droid and I wasn’t getting married I’d so do you. I love what you are doing on this site, kicking these scammers and con men like Ray right in the fucking nuts. Please let me know if this lowly Buddhist can help in the kicking of said nuts.
Cheers!
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me first Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 12:39 am
i saw the droid first im first in line! lool
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Joe said, “But if you look at his twitter account, he’s still got a lot of supporters who don’t seem to give a flip about what any of his detractors are saying.”
The interview with Kristina Bivins bears this out. She was so badly affected by the sweat that she had an overnight stay in the hospital afterwards (she was in shock, had dangerously low blood pressure, and was apparently hallucinating because she claims that after she was dragged out of the lodge, she called to JAR, and he came over to her and held her hand for a long time). And yet where was Ms. Bivins the next weekend? At a World Wealth Summit event. And, she’s been in contact with JAR several times since the tragedy as well.
So yes, sadly, some people will continue to drink the kool-aid …
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rwr Reply:
January 21st, 2010 at 8:44 pm
The number of followers on his Twitter account doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story.
A lot of Twitter followers are bots and people selling something, especially MLM, LOA stuff and, ironically, ways to get followers. Then there are legions of porn bots.
Also, since Ray has rarely made any tweets since October 8, a lot of the people who would have unfollowed if he did keep posting, have not.
Some are diehards, but the majority likely are not.
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Do you know why they’re calling these White Papers,which is a marketing term? The great thing about these documents,besides presenting us with your superb editing skills,Mr. Droid,is that we can see how stupid Ray really is.
Yeah,rational people know he’s not a mystic or spiritual guru,but what about his claim,”I have been initiated into 3 shamanic orders from the Incan culture”? Or his “Practical Spirituality” book in which he states that other spiritual teachers are “cosmic foo foos” because they weren’t rich!(These are on his website.)If you have heavenly “facts” like that,you damn well consider yourself a spiritual guru!
In real Indian sweats, EVERYONE EXITS after each round to cool down and drink WATER. There’s no one telling you to go back in if you don’t feel like it.
Btw,our telephone company in Oklahoma is SouthwestERN Bell.
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Thanks for the added and truthful corrections in the white pages. Thanks for staying with this story and for the updates. He is clearly a sociopath with no conscience, still taking NO responsibility for his reckless disregard for human suffering and deaths of so many people—deaths that effected the lives of so many others (wives, husbands, parents, children etc of these people that are gone).
Has he truely scheduled more death lodges? Are you kidding me? Is that legal with charges pending? OMG—-he’s nuts! And has got to be stopped. If there is ever a time when a letter written to the court to voice an opinion would be beneficial, please let me know. If I can help stop a man who knowingly leads people blindly into this greedy, money grubbing scam game he plays with people who are trusting — then I wanna help, however minor it may be.
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Neil Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
By the way , how could people help, apart from spreading links to SD etc.
Is there something concrete, legal or helpful that “mother fuckers” could do? It’s just that SD seems to be right in the middle of a fight.
Help is always useful in a fight, whether you are bold or meek.
Spread the fucken word.
What I find exceptionally odd, is that the occasional commenters , who label people that agree with Salty/Jason/Bob/Terry, as liberals.
I had to Google that motherfucker, because where I come from,
SHAFTING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT RIGHT. If that makes me a liberal, then I reckon…….
You Are A Fanny
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Hippo Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
I am a frequent commenter on Findadeath.com, and we have a five-page thread on this topic.
It’s not much, but it helps.
Anorak.uk and Rumor Rat are also posting updates to this story.
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Hippo Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
To Kate:
All I know is that he appears to be accepting reservations to 2010 events, including another Death Lodge in September.
Now, maybe that isn’t happening and the information is just there to keep up appearances, I have no way of knowing.
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I don’t know how practical this suggestion is – someone with legal knowledge might correct me – but anyone wanting to do something positive might want to write to the San Diego police and ask them to re-open Colleen Conaway’s case.
San Diego Police Department
Headquarters
1401 Broadway, San Diego, CA 92101-5729
or
citizensreviewboard@sandiego.gov
They say they would only do that if new evidence appeared. Well –
Emerging pattern of systematic abuse
Psychological abuse of participants in seminars
Activities specifically designed to induce “altered states”
No screening of participant health
Inadequate monitoring
No safety procedures
Withholding and falsifying information
Possible fraud
….just to name a few.
A polite inquiry into the current situation might make them realise they may face more questions in the near future.
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colleens brother in law Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 7:18 am
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, Please contact the san diego police…..There is a greiving family in northern minnesota that would sure appreciate a second look by law enforcement….
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Yakaru Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 10:57 am
Anyone wanting to write can find the basic facts collected in one place, plus the letter I sent off, here -
http://spiritualityisnoexcuse.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/justice-for-colleen/
The more people who right, the more likely the investigators will start considering the media attention they may well be receiving in the future and weighing up how easy it was to close the case, against how much effort they will have to expend on explaining themselves to the world wide media later.
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Hippo Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 11:45 am
To Yakaru:
Outstanding letter, and an excellent, concise description of the facts.
Maybe one of the lawyers here could answer a question for me–I am remembering that California passed a “Prior Bad Acts” law of some kind in an attempt to convict Michael Jackson of child molestation. Now, this didn’t help with Jackson, but I am wondering if this law is still on the books and if it could be useful in prosecuting James Ray?
Before Colleen died, there were some injuries at other seminars, but I don’t know if those had to have taken place in the State of California? There were some broken bones, and a gentleman from a 2005 Death Lodge claims to have suffered permanent brain damage leaving him unable to work and homeless. If this man was making a six-figure income, and is now un-employable and homeless due to a James Ray seminar, surely this is significant.
Can somebody clarify?
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stoic Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
I will follow your lead and will also be writing from the UK. Great letter, and a good example to follow.
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I was caught by one of these freaks and I know that they are very deliberate in their action and deny them when they are caught. I find it absolutely shameful that they have the gall to attempt to maintain an innocent facade when they know they have done shocking things to affect other peoples lives. I have no sympathy for them or the consequences of their decisions and actions. I believe all of these self appointed experts are going to face severe scrutiny in the future and this is just the beginning.
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I remember reading that:
“Senator Amy Klobuchar is asking both the U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to investigate the circumstances related to the “Spiritual Warrior” program run by motivational speaker James Arthur Ray. Klobuchar serves on both the Senate Judiciary and Commerce committees”
Hopefully they are looking into the San Diego incident also
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http://klobuchar.senate.gov/newsreleases_detail.cfm?id=319599&
Here is the link to the letters that Senator Klobuchar wrote to the FTC.
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Droid well done.
You point out several things most people seem to be missing in this…
I thought I’d toss in my perspective from the other side of the tribal lines to let you know how many of us are seeing this…
Having apprenticed to a master shaman for over 20 years and having hosted over 120 traditional sweat lodges and countless informal ones, for over 1,200 guests WITH NO INCIDENT I do have some light to shed.
First: A little background – James Ray hosts a modified Lakota Lodge – “White Style” and is considered by many of us the same as a person who wore blackface in the 50′s… He is a mockery, an abuser, and a charlatan. So much so that any tribal person associated with him is considered an outcast… – ostracized back to the casino…
Second: Money has no place in our culture (that whole nonsense about us using beads for money is something the whites ascribed to us because they couldn’t understand our paradigms of non-ownership). …ideas of ownership don’t even merit discussion… – money has no place in our culture.
But beyond that – Exchange, barter, trade have no place in a sweat lodge ceremony – traditional or informal… You wanna contribute, bring some wood… Show up early, help set the lodge… Money is an insult here…
The hosts: A sweat lodge is hosted by two people, plus apprentices. The Water Pourer and the Fire Keeper. Here’s how this works…
The Water Pourer lays the lodge – ALWAYS – this means they pick the branches, decide the exact orientation, and oversee the building of the lodge – ALWAYS – this is their responsibility. Most Water Pourers won’t conduct a sweat in lodge someone else built, unless in special circumstances the builder ‘invites’ them to do so. You can’t pay to use someone elses lodge, that’s absurdity.
Next – the FireKeeper picks the wood, and lays out stones (called: elders, ancient ones, grandfathers, etc… it’s not about the name, it’s about respect for the anceints) for approval. Having kept fire for so many years I can tell you this: FINDING, PICKING, and PRESENTING stones is skill which takes years to learn. It is not to be taken lightly, or else people can get hurt, and it is the responsibility of the fire keeper that the stones don’t hurt people…
But it is the responsibility of the Water Pourer to pick the stones after they have been presented… Make sense? For a lodge like the one this guy hosted, you’d need to heat about 100-150 stones… That’s a lot, way too many. Usually 30-35 is the most a good fire keeper can manage, unless you cycle the stones back into the fire or build multiple pits… The reason for this is that in order to heat that many stones you need a fire so big you wouldn’t be able to get close enough to it get the stones out, plus you’d need to present over 200 stones for the Water Pourer to inspect… At just 10 pounds per stones (10 pounds is small), you’d be presenting over a tons of stones for inspection…
The time involved to would take hours even days for the Water Pourer just to Inspect them all… It’s somewhat absurd. Even thirty stones can take a few hours to lay out and inspect each one…
Why?
You see, good stones are special… Preferably twice heated wind blown granite removed without stirring life… Meaning, you need to hike around, find really dense granite in 5-20 pound chunks with no critters living on, under, or in it. It should be sunbaked and windblown. Then you need to bake it once or twice before it enters a lodge with people in it… Why?
Well I tell you, a good fire gets those stones glowing, red hot… It’s a very cool effect when the red glow of the stones lights that dark lodge up, but that red hot stone is going to get banged around nomatter how hard you try to set it down gently, it’s going to get jostled and dropped, and then splashed with water… So before they are ever presented, we heat them red hot, then smack them into other stones, don’t confuse irreverence with roughness. You need to be rough with those stones days before the people arrive… This takes a lot of time… For a lodge this absurdly big it would take weeks just to get the stones ready… Months to gather them…
Ever seen a red hot stone explode? It’s pretty cool… Much more violent then you might expect… I’ve seen stones blow so hard that they send flaming logs flying out of the fire pit! Better if that occurs without guests around, eh?
Anyways, when you present the stones to the Water Pourer, it means they are all tested and approved, the Water Pourer just picks the best of the best… Imagine trying to prepare over a ton of stones! It can take hours to find even one stone, then hours more to pack it back to the lodge site…
Why is this so important? Well, sunbaked granite is just one of the types of stone we use, there are others but those are the ones we look for most, this process insures the stones are safe and free from toxins… Sulfurs, arsenic, asbestos and other sciencey named stuff I know nothing about, I just know : : : “That stone ain’t right – and – this one is” How do I know a good stone? Because you have to apprentice for years just to tend the fire, years and years more before you pour the water – A fifty year old water pourer is young, not unheard of, but young nonetheless… I know because the elders (the humans ones) taught me how to spot the bad ones, I know because 1,200 people survived lodges I tended fire for without anyone ever even fainting or getting sick…
We can spot the bad stones because we were taught to spot them, not because we send them to labs for approval… Traditional means handed down generation after generation, if someone skips the apprenticeship, it’s not good… You can’t fake this stuff… People’s lives are on the line…
Okay, I go on: The fire keeper is responsible for the wood, the fire, and presenting the stones, heating the stones, and bringing them into the lodge… The wood is a whole ‘nother thing, lots of special stuff goes into it and the making of the fire… It’s a special kind of fire that is built in a special way to force the heat downward into the stones instead of upwards into the sky… It’s a really big hot fire, and it’s actually pretty dangerous because you have to get deep into the center of it to get the stones out… The whole thing is dangerous, not to be taken lightly… But that’s outside the lodge, the people in the lodge are kept far from the dangerous parts… Seriously, a well built fire is easily as hot as any smithies.
But that’s the fire keepers job, and it takes years to learn to do it well – The Water Pourer is responsible for everything else. The Water Pourer is 100% responsible for the lives of all the people in the lodge (even responsible for the fire keepers’)
The fire keeper has to do so much, because the Water Pourer needs to be able to keep the people safe, to focus on the people.
The sweat lodge isn’t about death, you’re not really supposed to go die there. You can die where ever you want, no problem – but for the most part we all agree not to die in the sweat lodge… The Water Pourer and the Fire Keepers won’t let you get too close to death there, that’s part of their job…
You see, sweating is part of our culture, people love the big mystical traditional Lakota sacred sweat, and that’s fine. But for us, we sweat all the time, it’s how we deal with the heat of the dessert summers. Some people use air conditioning, we just spend the mornings and evenings in 160-180 degree sweat lodge and then the 110 degree days feel cool all day… It’s not always such a big ritual, it’s just a normal part of life…
It’s something safe, normal, relaxing, and fun… It’s something we do all the time and by following a few basic guidelines injury’s are really rare…
This person James Ray has done something very bad here, and is now making it even worse.
Okay, so here a few basic traditional guidelines and how this person “James Ray” went against all of them – While claiming to be the keeper of the tradition:
1. A lodge has 10-16 participants (>16 is a tremendous amount of people to watch out for, more than 20 at one time would be “sacrilegious”) 20 is considered a “huge” amount of people
2. Money, barter, exchange of anything other than work and physical contribution is strictly forbidden “Sacrilegious” (pretty much a standing rule for all the North American Tribes regrading sweats) – sort of like charging a guest in your house to use the bathroom…
3. Synthetic Materials are somewhat “Sacrilegious” (standing in stark contrast to the ancient quality of the elders) – but sometimes private lodges are covered with tarps when not in use if the people don’t want to put the stuff away… So it’s sort of mixed bag… I never heard of anyone having tarps on a lodge while it was being used though…
4. The Water Pourer Not Building or overseeing the lodge being built, also once again “Sacrilegious” – building the lodge is the privilege of the Water Pourer, it’s something someone earns after years of doing it, it’s considered an honor.
5. Dieing in the or around the lodge somewhat “Sacrilegious” (always considered the responsibility of the Water Pourer to make sure no one dies) – these people died we don’t want them to feel like they committed sacrilege. They died in good faith trusting their Water Pourer and Fire Keeper. It’s the Water Pourer and Fire Keeper who are responsible.
Note: It really doesn’t mater what the courts say, it is the responsibility of the Water Pourer to keep the lodge. No one else can be at fault. The Water Pourer is the person 100% responsible for everything that happens in and around that lodge, that’s just how it is. No inspection or evidence required: “Who’s the Water Pourer?” that’s all you need to know… The Water Pourer is responsible for everything that happens there.
6. Not inspecting the Stones before heating them, “Sacrilegious”
7. Using stones someone else gathered without them being present: “Sacrilegious”
8. Not letting people open the back of the lodge: “Sacrilegious” <– this is an interesting point here because Mr. Ray said opening the lodge is sacrilege, but the truth is "Preventing people from opening the lodge is sacrilege" the lodges are designed to be opened by anyone, at any spot, at any time.
9. Not gathering, preparing, or even inspecting the wood "Sacrilegious" Can this guy even distinguish Cedar from Pine?
These are simple basic things and this guy has broken almost every normal guideline of a powerful ancient tradition, while simultaneously telling those who followed normal practices they were being Sacrilegious…
What I offer here is this: If a person impersonated a doctor and people died because of what they did, that would be homicide and thus subject to the death penalty. This is no different, this man clearly had no idea about our traditions, impersonated someone who did, and killed people in the process by breaking nearly every safegaurd we normally use…
Worse than negligent, he was impersonating a Sacred Water Pourer and people died under his care, this matter should be subject to death penalty. it is identical in every way to a person impersonating a doctor.
Finally: The Samurai Way… I understand that Mr. Ray combines cultures into a Modern American Hyrbid focused on being OUT OF BALANCE.
According to Samurai tradition, this makes every person in that lodge his Patron. According to those same Samurai traditions: it is the duty, honor, and sole responsibility of the Samurai to protect his patron.
Having failed in his sacred duty and stood idly by as his patrons died, there is one and only one way to restore his family name. He must publicly, and personally commit seppuku… His statement that he is a master of the Bushido tradition necessitates this. Sadly, it is the only ethical solution.
Thank you Droid, thank you for what you are doing here, you are a good and honorable person.
Lastly, sorry for the long comment, I just thought you may enjoy some insights into the lives of the people who this man is hurting behind the scenes… Because as he deflects the focus onto our traditions, and as he wins in the courts, he will set new precedents around our traditions…
The courts will need someone to blame in order to exonerate him, so already his council has decided on the targeted scapegoat, "The Native American People and their traditions are to Blame"… So as this O.J.'s out, at least the readers of the Droid can reflect back on this entry and remember "James Ray has absolutely nothing to do with Native American or Samurai Traditions in any way." No matter what the courts decide.
[Reply]
Thom Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Thanks for the insightful and detailed explanation, I.S.!
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
These are important points, coz Ray got a lot ogf his authority from all this heavy “honor” and “sacriledge” stuff, and did all this ritual stuff telling them the ancient native spirits were watching from this or that area.
Important that it gets out just how much he exploited the authority and respect of the the Native Americans in order to cement his authority over his victims.
SI, what do you make of this quote from the witness statements-
“James Ray told her his sweat lodge would be very extreme. He mentioned that his sweat lodge would be more extreme than the Lakota who are a crazy tribe.”
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
P.S., Droid, that is a fucking priceless graphic!
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rwr Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 12:54 am
IS: Thank you for taking the time and effort to educate us on the preparation and conduct of REAL sweat lodges. You’ve provided an eloquent and beautifully written explanation of the roles and elements involved.
I doubt that any thinking person, even those with no knowledge of what goes into a real sweat lodge, would think that Ray’s pathetic rip off had any connection to anything authentically Indian.
Thank you, again, for the significant contribution you’ve made here. I hope to see more of your writing on The Droid’s site.
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SD Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 7:53 am
@Injun :: That was awesome … thanks a lot.
I {much like James Ray} didn’t know most of that stuff. I think I should probably bump it up and turn it into a full post … please tell me some of your particulars. saltydroid@gmail.com
James Ray saying he’s “not a guru” or “shaman” after touring the world saying that he’s a guru and shaman makes me think of this gem a legal doctrine … which I do believe he’ll be running square into once the civil cases get going …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel
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Duff Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Thank you for bringing in this much-needed perspective. James Arthur Ray is a plastic shaman if there ever was one.
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Injun Samarai Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Thanks for the warm reception, it can be easy to miss the genuine care here amidst the volatile topics…
I have two things I feel should clarify:
First: I speak on behalf of no one. I offer no affiliations, no ties, and represent no opinion other than my own. (is my muzzle showing? just ignore it…)
For the official “Native American” statement regarding this matter: All Nations Native American Indian Council Elder – Arvol Looking Horse has issued a public statement which can be read here: http://firewitchrising.blogspot.com/ <– lengthy page – use find "James Ray" to get the statement…
Second: I speak from my own heart…
I want to make something resoundingly clear: The victims of these tragedies have done nothing sacrilegious… They are victims of a terrible crime and no justice system can reverse what has been taken from them.
Traditionally, the WATER POURER is 100% responsible in ALL WAYS, there is no room for trial, James Ray is responsible simply by fact that he was the one pouring the water – but this situation has nothing to do with traditional ways… There will be a trial, and he will try to put TRUST on trial instead of himself..
For him, this was a game of make believe, it still is. In his mind he was pretending to be a WATER POURER, pretending to be SAMURAI, pretending to put people's lives in jeopardy… He sells an illusion, and now must be held accountable for the consequences of that illusion.
His tremendous self interest insists that he never realized how dangerous his game of make believe was…
His false affiliations are moot. His heritage is moot. His teachers are moot. His background is moot.
It is the right of every living being to pray, conduct, and even create rituals however they want, it's his right too.
Certifications, Credentials, Liscensure, Affiliations – these things are all meaningless papers designed to afford the bearer absolution from responsibility for their actions…
What matters in this is not the ritual, not the affiliations – what matters here is that he solicited and accepted stewardship of the lives of these 64 people.
He promised them they would not die, and yet they did.
So let him become the poster child for all those leaders and teachers who seek absolution behind whatever certificates, or affiliations, or apprenticeships they've got…
Let him be the example: "Nomatter who authorized you, nomatter who trained you, nomatter what certificates you have – YOU ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROMISES YOU MAKE."
It is our sacred right as sheeple to trust one another… Let James Ray stand as the example for what happens when a leader betrays the flock…
We the Sheeple will tolerate failure and shortcomings, but we will not tolerate betrayal.
Who died there in that lodge? These weren't strangers, they were sheeple just like the rest of us, the same as those burned by Andy Jenkins' promises of SEO Mastery and Fanciful Formula Five… The only difference being: Jenkins ruins lives, Ray ends them.
Make no mistake about it, TRUST is on trial here… James Ray will attempt to prove in a court of law that leaders are not responsible for the trust they solicit.
This will be a big case, because it is the first time TRUST faces the death penalty for homicide. Testimonials, Credentials? This is about consequences and we must show our leaders that we hold them accountable for the promises they make.
This is the Samurai question… No one forced him to solicit and accept stewardship of their lives… He did so of his own free will… He must now accept responsibility for his failure as their steward…
Witnessed Seppuku is the ONLY Justice befitting this crime. Anything else can be no better than next best…
Perhaps I've digressed and no one likes a filibustering injun… so I'll wrap up my comments…
@Yakura – anyone who's been to a SunDance would never desire to be known as "More Extreme" than a Lakota – to be called "More Extreme than a Lakota" would be an insult, not a compliment… http://www.lakotawritings.com/The_Sun_Dance_Ritual.htm
@Droid – Did you notice – "Estoppel" includes "placing a halt on the imbalance of a situation." It would be delightfully ironic should the courts halt the imbalance of this inharmonious individual… I will contact you as requested shortly…
@james ray – "If you are able to obtain a Kaishakunin of Native American decent, your Seppuku on American soil will be protected under the 1978 Religious Freedoms Act. If you cannot find one, contact me via the droid and I will make sure you are given the chance to properly restore your families honor. Perhaps, this is your one chance to be remembered with honor. But remember, if you wait until this comes to trial – NO ONE can or will be Kaishakunin for you, it would be forbidden – some of us still honor the traditions of the ancients. My words are sincere, not to be taken as a jest, this is not a matter which I take lightly. If there is truly a Spiritual Warrior within you, then you hear what I am saying in truth."
[Reply]
Anita C. Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
SO well said. Thank you for putting the truth forth so clearly.
It is absolutely unbelievable that this man has not been arrested — he is so liable for these deaths, as well as whatever other damage he has put upon innocent people.
Totally and proven innocent people have been executed in this country — I do not necessarily wish that upon JAR, but with this amount and clarity of evidence, why is he not being held accountable? CERTAINLY, his organization must be stopped and there should be NO more gatherings that, counter to their hype, would actually be harming more people.
He needs to be called on the carpet and removed from his self-imposed pedestal.
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There are a number of people who appeared on the movie the secret who should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
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Boffo Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
You said it. A roster of opportunists. Plus “The Secret” itself…just another way over overstating “your thoughts have consequences.” That message has been around for eons, totally free of charge.
The general public just seems to love letting other people do their thinking for them, and paying for it. Sad, really.
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Ray’s lawyers are saying that Angel Valley destroyed the lodge and buried the rocks, so it will be impossible to get a conviction. But it wasn’t the Angel Valley people who did that, it was also the “dream team” and a few survivors.
“Barb spoke of dismantling the sweat lodge. “The tradtional way is to cut or untie the strings that held the wood together. It took a while to take it down…”
That was mentioned in that conference call, which reads back even more surrealistically than before.
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d15-Breaking-news-transcript-of-private-call-between-James-Ray-and-sweat-lodge-victims
A witness in the newly released docs also mentioned “Barb” as telling participants not to talk to police, but refer them to Megan and Josh Fredrickson.
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[...] is here. Heavy reading. For some light relief and the eloquently stated truth of the matter, see Salty Droid’s hilarious annotated version of the “white [...]
I heard through Steve Pavlina, another self-absorbed narcissist, that the “Leadership Transformation Council” is now cavorting in Puerto Rico. James A Ray used to be one of its founding members, but I now notice that his name no longer appears in the list of “Members in Good Standing”. Did his guru buddies give him the boot?
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
January 20th, 2010 at 8:46 am
To Doc:
Yes, I believe they did. Their own credibility, if any, depends upon them distancing themselves from Ray.
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Sorry, that should read Transformational Leadership Council
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The Transformational Leadership Council TLC http://www.transformationalleadershipcouncil.com has very strict criteria for membership.
You are only allowed to kill 1 person per year at your Transformational seminars. Anymore than that, is not allowed, unless no one finds out about it.
James Ray killed 4 people in one year, and that is not good PR for the Transformational Leadership Council. So they had to take him off the list.
They then put you on suspension for 1 year, or until criminal charges are suspended.
Once that is done, then they are again allowed one killing per year of their customers.
Of course, if your seminars are in Mexico or offshore, then you can kill as many customers as is your pleasure, no one will know about it.
Of course it goes without saying, you can injure, scam, rip-off, date-rape, drug, and have sex with as many of your customers as you want, as that is fine with the http://www.transformationalleadershipcouncil.com
But killing is not good PR, if it hits the media, and if you get caught.
Of course, if no one knows about it, then killing customers is fine.
Its called making a killing.
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James Ray trial begins! {In Droid Style I’ll paraphrase the bill for those of you who don’t speak legaleze:}
Native American Religious Regulations Act of 2010: proposed January 19th, 2010 jointly proposed and presented by Sen. Albert Hale:
“In response to the Sedona Tragedies, we propose to take away the rights of Native Americans and Whites and negate the 1978 Religious Freedom Act, 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 by introducing Liscensure and Certifications into Native American Culture…
Under this new bill: Whites, Non-Whites, and all Native Americans will loose their pesky religious freedom once and for all.
We are considering special “Casino Style Sweat Lodge Permits” where only we Government Authorized Indians will be allowed to profit from selling our traditions to whites.
This new regulation will help everyone, because for the first time ever – Properly Certified Shaman will be able to have the absolution from their actions they so dearly need, plus Malpractice Insurance!
Although Punitive measures are beyond the scope of this current bill, we look forward to regulating religious freedom on every level. Soon, if all goes well, things like: Home Altars, Burning Incense, Bringing Flowers to Graves, Even Praying Before Meals will all become standardized and require special ‘Prayer Permits’ which can of course be obtained for a reasonable fee…”
In later ‘off the record; discussions, it is rumored that deals are being made for “The Sweat Lodge Pills” a prescription version of Religious Freedom, which will allow western doctors to prescribe Religious Freedom in a properly regulated pill form…
So today, the Injun Samurai applauds both Sen. Hale and James Ray… We can rest easy knowing that all those seeking to follow in James Ray’s footsteps may never again have to worry about accountability for their actions… As long as they can afford the right Credentials, Licenses, and Insurances : : : nagging little problems (like homicide) will all go away…
Congratulations James! You did it! You managed to reach the Senate floor and successfully begin the process of taking away all people’s Religious Freedom!
Hopefully after your exoneration, you can go after our Freedom of Speech Rights, and then assholes like the Droid and the rest of us can be regulated into silence once and for all…
The future just gets brighter and brighter with every passing hour!
Reference:
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/other/story/Navajo-lawmaker-Ceremonies-should-be-held-off/QHYrB3V54kiS74rabiN2yg.cspx
Great Exerpts:
“Joe Shirley Jr., president of the Navajo Nation, said regulating ceremonies would respect his people’s sacred ways.” <–Because regulation is sacred!
"The dominant society has taken all that we have: our land, our water, our language,” Hale said. “And now they are trying to take our way of life. I think it has to stop." <– and regulation is part of our traditional ways, it always has been!
"Asked whether the measure would hurt businesses that offer so-called Native American ceremonies off reservations, Hale said it will make those businesses more credible" <– Translation: More Profitable! Religious tourism? Tax dollars? Insurance? Night classes? Certifications? Am the only one seeing how lucrative this will be?
Three people died, but the tragedy is just beginning.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
January 20th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
@Injun :: Great comment again.
I wouldn’t worry too much about that … as it will never pass and is unimaginably unconstitutional … plus a treaty violation. But it shows how completely ignorant the whole world is about what is actually going on here.
Note to Sen. Hale :: Colleen Conaway died AT THE FUCKING MALL!! How about we start regulating who can go to malls … it would probably be more useful anyway.
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[...] note that this is also the defense Ray’s lawyers are preparing for the Arizona deaths – that they didn’t realise people were dead, even [...]
Its shockingly idiotic to try and ban sweatlodges, James Ray has nothing to do with sweatlodges. the problem is not sweatlodges.
if he didn’t do a sweatlodge, he’d just do something else, he’d do his brainwashing for money in an igloo, or in the woods, or in his basement.
its bizarre how so much of the public can’t see what is going on with this.
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Stupid. And Ray didn’t just co-opt Native American teachings. He co-opted Stan Grof’s Holotropic Breath work and turned it into hyperventilation. He also co-opted quantum physics. Actually if they just banned people doing that the entire new age industry would collapse and the problem would be solved.
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CHARGES FILED AGAINST JAMES RAY AND ANGEL VALLEY!
Great news for anyone who cares, Federal charges have been filed against James Ray and Angel Valley…
http://www.sedona.biz/LAKOTA-LAWSUIT-SWEAT-LODGE.pdf
Yakura earlier mentioned the extremeness of the Lakota people – and being the warriors they are, they have banded together to seek accountability directly on those responsible for these tragedies.
Longblackcat, a LAKOTA WARRIOR has been given authority by the elders to take this all the way to the Supreme Court if need be…
Why? : : : There is a very solid chance James Ray and Angel Valley are going to dodge a homicide investigation, but they will not be able to dodge a full on Lakota onslaught…
How? : : : The Lakota Nation has now filed a federal case against James Ray and Angel Valley as a Constitutional Violation of the 1868 Treaty with the Lakota Nation!
1. James Ray will face a life sentence
2. Religious Freedom Rights of All people will be protected by precedent
What this means is – James Ray and Angel Valley will be held accountable for their crimes in Federal Court while simultaneously protecting freedom of religion! <– part of what the Lakota are doing is trying to protect all people's rights to pray and conduct ritual however they want by putting the accountability on the person, not the Ritual or the Credentials.
Legally – there are some subtleties to all this Treaty Violation stuff as being the cornerstone of the case, but in essence, making it a Constitutional Law case insures they can appeal any decision regional authorities make…
As the Droid Said: We the people demand Justice! …and The Lakota Nation has taken a formidable position to insure we get that justice — This is not going to OJ out on us!
…plus "The Lakota Nation have filed destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice against any and all persons involved in the dismantling of the lodge"
Note: The Lakota have adopted a firm stance that the Conducting Sweats is not a religious act and therefore cannot be regulated.
Essentially: They are saying that James and Angel Valley impersonated Lakota and violated the treaty in doing so, to the extent of killing three people, thus desecrating the Lakota ways regardless of any other circumstances…
James will have to prove he never mentioned the Lakota Traditions! Or he will be found guilty…
So in the words of Chief Crazy Horse: "If you must go to war, make sure it isn't against the Lakota."
[Reply]
love Lakota! Reply:
January 21st, 2010 at 6:30 pm
Yes SIR! It is ironic that James Ray is STILL going to face life. It’s so ironic on so many levels. Wow. Just wow. I’m happy today to have read this good news.
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One of the witnesses reported Ray as saying his sweats are “even hotter” and “more extreme” than those run by the Lakota “who are a crazy people”.
From the witness statements it is clear that most of the participants were doing their first sweat lodge and thought that this is how traditional sweat lodges are run. Ray was constantly evoking the Native Spirits present in different areas of the lodge. All this “sacriledge!” stuff he was carrying on with was all part of impersonating an Indian, and all to maintain his authority.
He took THAT part of his “responsibilities” very seriously, because it gave him authority.
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miracle cure all! Reply:
January 21st, 2010 at 10:47 pm
When you play with native traditions, be it Indian or otherwise, you play with fire.
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PsychoBabble Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 8:12 am
I posted a while ago that it makes as much sense for someone like Ray to run a sweat lodge as it would for me to rent out St. Peters in Rome and try my hand at a Latin Mass – and then charge people for the “transformative” experience. It’s that fucking crazy.
Yes, you don’t hire someone else to build a sweat lodge for you, you don’t charge people for participating, you don’t block people from leaving. That stuff is the psycho icing on the cake, but the whole premise of someone with no background, commitment or training running a sweat lodge was loony from get go.
Ray is really not that much different from a punk who breaks into a synagogue, spray paints it with swastikas and when caught then claims he was engaged in a legitimate act of self-expression. His behavior was that disrespectful.
[Reply]
Hi IS! So does this mean James Arhur Ray will actually be arrested on Federal Charges?
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[...] Not everyone likes to read the comments :: special thanks to all the trolls and nut-jobs :: so here’s a reprint of @InjunSamarai’s useful contribution. {It’s been slightly shortened … and I’ve removed all the bits about how awesome I am … because we’re all well aware of that fact. The original comment is here.} [...]
[...] homicide is a step more aggressive than the negligent homicide that was mentioned in the WhiteTrash Papers. I guess the Arizona authorities found those arguments so persuasive that they ratcheted UP the [...]
[...] = Public Relations Win?? [lawyer interjects] I think you’ll have to rely on the “White Paper” for that [...]
[...] unaware that the “more complete” set of facts about Sedona that Death Ray was trying to peddle have already been discredited as complete and utter nonsense, Schirmer is trying to get people to review the “white” [...]
[...] side” of the story is represented by the lame ass arguments made by his lawyers in the White Papers. Why? Those papers were drafted to try and convince law enforcers not to take action. They [...]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
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babzilicious Reply:
June 30th, 2010 at 10:48 am
@Logical Joe,
Oh LeeKuan, are you at it again?
The construction of the sweat lodge, how, who, when – none of that has any bearing on Mr. Ray’s responsibility in this tragedy. The buck stops with Mr. Ray. He did a final walkthrough of the lodge, and lo, he declared it good. And there was a 36-hour fast, and a 2-hour sweat, and 3 people died.
Here endeth the lesson, and your ridiculous attempt to take the blame off James Ray.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
June 30th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
@babzilicious, Again indeed!Lame-o! We have told you,LeeKuan,repeatedly, that the forensic studies RULED OUT the construction of the sweat lodge and other elements as being connected to the deaths and injuries. The Medical Examiner ruled they were due to heat and dehydration. This was published months ago, you lame old man. Do you honestly think your crazy ass knows more than the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department and the Prosecutor’s office?
How about a nice Hawaiian Punch? Go back to your girlfriend,Mother Nature,and talk to the rocks and streams so they won’t include you in the 2012 alien smorgasbord. Something you might think about, What if the Droid and/or some of us are actually connected to the Alien Beings and can request that you’re put on the “Good to Eat” list?
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Logical Joe Reply:
June 30th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-7
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-6
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stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 3:16 am
@Logical Joe,
I’m afraid of the wilful mental blindness of guru-followers like you. That a supposedly intelligent human being could come to a conclusion such as yours, despite the copious evidence, scares me silly.
You have the mind of a loyal facist, to be so easily led by a leader exposed for the vicious conman that he is. If there are too many more like you then we are in serious trouble.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-8
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SD Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 10:54 pm
@LeeKuan ::
What’s that you say? It’s hard to decipher.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-9
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stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 1:37 am
@Logical Joe,
YOUR OPINION is woefully ill-informed. James Arthur Ray was aware as far back as 2005 that HIS METHOD in conducting sweat lodges led to heat exhaustion in the participants. People were hospitalised then, this is documented in the Yavapai detectives evidence interviews and reports.
With this knowledge, that his method was dangerous to the life of the participants, did James Arthur Ray desist, modify his method, employ safeguards, ensure that medical personnel were available for the inevitable casualties??
No, he increased the heat and duration of the rounds and applied even more coercive persuasion to ensure that people were shamed into staying inside his death-tent way beyond any point of safety. He did this in order to produce an ‘altered state’ in them which he could then claim was a spiritual experience, in order to justify the ludicrous fee.
Unfortunately the altered state he was most adept at producing was death, the complete cessation of life.
I don’t expect that the evidence or rational argument will have any beneficial effect on your deluded worship of this psychopath—–but then you are an obvious fuckwit whose brain has been cooked just as surely as if you had gone 8 rounds with James Ray in the death tent.
Most people, luckily, have enough of a survival instinct to stay away from a death delivering ‘spiritual teacher’ such as James Ray who leaves a trail of dead bodies and broken lives in his wake.
You are obviously not one of those with a vestige of self preservation left, so follow this manslaughtering fool if you must–but spare us people with working faculties the stupidity of your ignorant and ill-informed apologies for the vicious and murderous piece of work that is James Arthur Ray.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 8:36 am
@stoic, “Logical Joe” is Josh McDougal over at ABC…he gave up over there, some nice old Native lady kicked his butt….he never made sense there, or at any of the other sites that put up with him…some sites he was banned from…he uses many, many aliases, but the writing style stays the same…he won’t listen to reason, it seems to be a case of “pearls before swine”….Ray was arrogant and he was ignorant…he was also a thief when it came to a ‘sweat lodge’…it was not his culture, or Tradition…and he charged admission, Native people know that you never pay to pray…
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 9:06 am
@Logical Joe,
First, I have seen Native American sweat lodges made with plastic tarps so we can rule out that argument. It may have to do with the part of the country. In wetter areas all of that other padding would probably get damp and moldy without them.
Secondly, there apparently was a discussion between Angel Valley and James prior to building it and they finally acquiessed to his instructions. Ignorance cannot be claimed on that front. HOWEVER, all construction aside, the ultimate responsibility for the safety and welfare of the participants is with the teacher, camp counselor, sweat lodge leader. They are leading the group, many of whom have never done the activity before, and do not really know what to expect. The leader LEADS. The leader is always monitoring the condition of the participants and making sure that they do not get over cooked.
In activities of hyperthermia it is traditional to exit after about 15 to 20 minutes and hydrate and cool down before going back in. In the sweat lodges I have seen, the people came out, hosed down, drank water and re-entered for another round. If you were doing a sauna you might come out, jump in a fjord, roll in snow, but one way or another you cool down before going back in.
These were not stupid people. These were people who trusted someone who they expected to be experienced to lead them through the experience safely. Dehydration and heat stress shut down your ability to think clearly for your own survival needs. You may not even be able to move.
James likes to say: “It’s not the ritual, it’s what you bring to the ritual.” At what point do you finally wake up and say, with people vomiting and passing out around you, screw the ritual, this is not going well. Let’s get out and regroup before the next round?
The sanctity of life always supercedes the sanctity of a ritual. Always.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 9:25 am
@White Rabbit, I agree with all you have written….at times tarps are used to cover a lodge when it is not in use, then removed for use, at least up here in the Northeast…a lodge does need to ‘breathe’ while it is being used, not surrounded by plastic as if it were a cooking pot…Ray is arrogant, but in the sweat lodge ‘business’ he is ignorant pretending to know what he was doing….I have asked repeatedly who his Teacher was, what Tradition he was doing the lodge in…all the descriptions of that ‘Death lodge’ match nothing I have ever heard of,…I have been in lodges for the past 50+ years, and no one has ever died as a result of participating….arrogance and ignorance alone are not a crime, but mixed with Ray’s ego-feeding need..it was a deadly combination…..Ray stole a Traditon from a culture, and then he sold it…I find that alone appalling, couple that with people dying because he pretended to have knowledge he did not have….I am left wondering how low Ray will go in his defense at the trial…
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
@Omikse, Oh and don’t forget Ray was “chanting and singing in a Native tongue”. Logical Joe(L Kuan)still thinks the sweat trap was a structured “building”, like made of wood or something.The only wood in this story, LeeKuan Major Minor Big is what you clearly have for James Ray.
[Reply]
stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
@Jean D,
Oh brilliant observation re the wood!
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 6:44 am
@Jean D, too funny!….thanks for the comic relief!….something sure keeps Lee Kuan’s panties spinning!….and here I thought it was the “Old Ladies On The Porch Witty Dialogue” that kept LK coming back for more….
Hippo Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 10:14 am
@stoic,
Now, in defense of James Ray “modifying his method” after previous sweat lodges, I believe he DID add a fruit bowl.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 10:55 am
@Hippo, I heard that also…but it included a box of ‘twinkies’ as well
[Reply]
stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 11:40 am
@Omikse,
I’m guessing from reading some of the Native American blogs that ‘twinkies’ are people who steal indigenous cultural practices and exploit them for personal profit??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
@stoic, yes…twinkies….sponge yellow cake, filled with white filling, ( not real cream, so that’s a fake too), and wrapped in plastic, with no nutritional value, just empty calories…..2 other terms come to mind…”Pretendian”, and “culture vulture”…..Ray can wear all three terms/titles with pride…he has more than earned them…
stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 11:12 am
@Hippo,
I stand corrected, dear Hippo.
Of course, we all know that those on the brink of death from heatstroke can be instantly revived and restored to full and vibrant youth and wealth and health by the simple expedient of waving a mango over their heads…or was that an acai berry?
No matter, for us superior types,(who’ve paid annual dues of $60,000 to show our superiority) those in the inner circle who wear our thumb rings religiously to show how close we are to the source, we know the real secret.
(whisper, whisper) It doesn’t really matter whether it is a mango or an acai berry, the real catalyst of healing is James Ray’s shaktipat, a combination of bullshit and anabolic steroids percolated over decades in his holy body and projected into his victims brains the way a deadly spider injects venom into his prey to turn its insides into easily digestible mush.
Let’s all worship the fruit bowl, and not spread the secret of DeathRay’s amazing, restorative shaktipat. :)
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
@Hippo, This is off the subject,but what is your avatar pic?I’ve tried but can’t figure it out,even with glasses on!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
@Jean D,
That is a picture of an elephant seal named Minazo from a Japanese zoo. You can’t see in the photograph, but he makes some hilarious facial expressions when the zookeeper prompts him.
He was hugely popular, but sadly, he passed away a few years ago. I think he has achieved icon status in Japan.
If you’re familiar with the LOL-cats website (icanhascheezburger.com), there is a running joke about a walrus searching for his missing bucket. Minazo was initially mis-identified as a walrus, and the first photo of him was him holding a blue plastic bucket with one flipper, sticking his tongue out, and the caption read: “I Has A Bukkit.”
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
@Hippo, Oh good,my eyesight is still accurate. I thought it was an elephant seal! Nice.
SD Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
I’m not sure what to do about our not-friend LeeKuan. Sometimes his idiocy spawns great responses like these :: but I’m tempted to ban him anyway. I like flame wars :: and I like to eat the brains of asshole sympathizers :: but I think this is different. I think what we are dealing with is an actual crazy person … not a Ray follower.
Any opinions on that subject??
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
@SD, He’s not a Ray follower. He’s a stalker of Conan O’Brien,Dr.Wayne Dyer,and James Arthur Ray.Look at his twitter leekuanmajor. He vacillates between love and hate of those 3 people,even JAR.
[Reply]
stoic Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
@SD,
Without doubt he is clinically unhinged. It would be a kindness to ban him but he will still be unhinged and will pop up again under another alias.
At least he’s easily recognisable, whatever the monika.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 6th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
@SD,
Well, if Jean is right and he’s schizophrenic, he’s definitely unhinged and can’t be reasoned with.
I believe that the people who shot Ronald Reagan, John Lennon and Rebecca Schaeffer were/are schizophrenic.
I hope that LeeKuan is not stalking anyone, carrying a copy of “Catcher In The Rye.”
It’s your call, Mr. Salty. I can live with whatever you decide.
[Reply]
Lee Kuan seems to be a wagon who’s wheels are about to fall off…some of us have been watching this train wreck since the end of last year…JeanD is right, he seems to be a stalker, but he also has arguements with himself( while posing as another “person”) on his own web site, there are about 5-6 different “personalities”, 1 is a “woman”…in one of the latest installments there, he tells himself, through this “woman”, to stop obsessing about Ray…it is interesting at times to see what nonsense he comes up with, ..other sites that finally banned him did so because he became very crude, and he did threaten, in a graphic way, quite a few people….he’s been around on the web for years, 10+ on dozens of sites….he stays or he goes…it’s up to you…I don’t want to hold a telethon for the guy, just the straight-jacket!
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:54 am
@LeeKuanMajor, “Your hearts are filled with bitterness, hatred, resentment and a desire to destroy. You seem to think this makes you excellent people, in fact it makes you among the human trash scum of the Earth.”…yes, and your heart is filled with so much love it overflows unto the page….
[Reply]
LeeKuanMajor Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-4
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, …hey, Lee Kuan…how does one person by definition “gang” up one another person???..I fail to see how I can “gang” up on you???..
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
@Omikse, Hi Lee Kuan Major.Now I’m here and it’s official.We’re ganging up on you.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
@Jean D, …WAHOOOO!!!….Let the Good times roll!!!!…pull up a chair on the porch here…would you like a score card?..I think it’s reality 10, Lee Kuan -50…
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:43 am
@LeeKuanMajor, ….so, in your twisted reality, if you are not here to learn anything why are you here at all?…looks like groupie,smells like groupie, sounds like groupie…must be groupie…
[Reply]
LeeKuanMajor Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, …you need to realize that you can not find what is not there….there is nothing good nor wonderful about Ray or his teachings…no, wait,…nope, nothing good or wonderful….my life is not one of failure….remember, Lee Kuan, you have arguments with yourself on your own web site,…do you have no friends Lee Kuan?.. I’m not talking about your other personalities…
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, You’ve sent emails to James Ray.Has he responded? Why don’t you go to the Official Fan Page of James Arthur Ray on facebook and you’ll find a bunch of other groupies who love him like you do. And he might respond to you there!
Why waste your time on a blog like this where no one will agree with you and we all think you’re crazy/
And,by the way,Omikse is not a failure at all. She’s someone many people admire and look up to.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
@Jean D, thanks, JeanD…I’d offer you something to drink, but with Lee Kuan running around, well…I hear ya’ can’t trust him,…ya know….but I do have pre-wrapped cookies, have some…..you know. maybe a telethon for Lee Kuan is a good idea, we could get a new tamper-resistant straight jacket…what do you think?
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:41 am
@LeeKuanMajor,…lots of luck with that….when will you be holding your “Death lodge”?…how much for festival seating? I would like to be in the balcony if possible….do you speak from experience, LeeKuan?..is your life in the ” proverbial ground”?….Ray is neither wholesome nor good… you make him sound like a cross between a granola bar and a leprechaun with a pot of gold……Ray is arrogant and ignorant…just like what was posted at ABC…you gave up over there pretty quickly….
[Reply]
LeeKuanMajor Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:44 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:47 am
@LeeKuanMajor, no…all anyone need do is check out the cemeteries… which speaks volumes as to what you can learn from Ray….nope, I have not killed anyone by doing fake ceremonies…
[Reply]
LeeKuanMajor Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, oh, honey…that’s sweet, but save your pity for when you, 1. look at Ray when he is sitting as a defendant in August, 2. when you have occasion to glance in a mirror….they both hold similar appeal….How about we talk about Ray?…or don’t you want to base a dialogue in the here and now..you know, the real reality….
Jean D Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, Let’s see how caring and non-hateful you are. Here’s a board where you appeared and were banned:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011748.html
Your first post,under the thread, October 15, 2009 “$9,695 New Age sweat lodge session kills 2, injures 19:
#772 Lee Kuan March 26, 2010, 08:20 PM: If YOU felt you were dying from the heat would YOU go back into a sweat lodge? Why not? What do you think of people who go back into sweat lodges when their bodies are telling them they are dying from the heat? Do you consider such people to be wise?
You kept insulting and calling the victims names,then you eventually went ballistic
#900 Lee Kuan March 29, 2010, 01:46 AM: FCK Y ND YR SLT WHR F MTHR T, Y STPD FCKNG SN F GTTR WHR BTCH!!!!
#901 Lee Kuan March 29, 2010, 01:50 AM: THS PLC S BLND PC F SHT JST LK Y ND YR NTR FML, SSHL DN’T ND Y FR (((NTHNG!!!))) T M SHT, MTHRFCKR!!!
This is #902 when you were banned by the moderator:
March 29, 2010, 01:52 AM: Ladies and gentlemen, a round of applause for Lee Kuan and his masterful argumentation skills*! IP address is 72.253.135.5
* not to mention the gender distinction talent. SN? no, dear lad, that’s DGHTR.
This IP address places you in the Honolulu area. Do you realize a lot of your online activities are felonious? You were banned at thoughts.com for various reasons including threatening people and making comments about pedophilia and child molestation.
You are easy to find,dude,and that’s not me threatening you. I’m talking about the Federal Bureau of Investigation,Oahu.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-5
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
@LeeKuanMajor, ….”James Arthur Ray and I are for: Love, Health, Strength, Happiness, Generosity, Overflowing Abundance, forgiveness and successful living.”…are you “Joshing” me?…( Josh McDougal..get it??!!)….you have been banned for how you have displayed your “love” online…and I don’t mean in an X rated way,..I mean in a threatening way…remember Lee Kuan??
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
@Omikse, Check out the post about his other threatening behavior above this one.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
@Jean D, …yup, Lee Kuan, and all his aliases/egos, really need us to do that telethon, poor thing…he is sooooo full of….well, you know what he’s full of, and it ain’t “love”…he has convoluted thoughts at best, and while we have the score card..( BTW it’s us 100 and Lee Kuan -250..), I think he needs to have a system so he can remember what he has posted, and where he posted it……
[Reply]
LeeKuanMinor is officially banned for being a dangerous :: disgusting :: disturbed :: dipshit … and for repeatedly decreasing the Signal to Noise ratio on my beloved fake robot blog. I hope that he and his manlover Death Ray are very happy together. I vow to attend their gay wedding once Death Ray gets out of prison and LeeKuan is released from the mental institution.
Happily Ever After …
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
@SD, …Oh, My..,”released from the mental institution”….do you mean that Lee Kuan could chew through the straps on any new straight jacket we might get for him?…I think a 34 short is about the right size…..Darn….I’m gonna’ miss ol’ Lee Kuan….
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
LeeKuanMinor bids us farewell {in the spam folder} by calling my Mom a “gutter slut whore” :: in love :: happiness :: and abundance of course.
[Reply]
Omikse Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
@SD, yeah…..I can feel the professed love from here….(sigh….)
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 7th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
@SD,
Mr. Salty, you have such a way with words.
[Reply]
[...] in the White Papers (the link is to Salty Droid’s “improved” version), the defense published an extremely lame and transparent defense of [...]
Not only am I 2LateSmart, I am very late to this posting, but I have to leave a comment anyway.
Re: SD’s revision of the White (Toilet) Paper – Brilliant. Fucking Brilliant. I laughed. I cried. I want justice.
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