Munger Tolles & Olson :: UnAttracting Ethics
James Arthur Ray was arrested for manslaughter on the morning of February 3rd. Horah! Good times … good times.
On February 4th :: Ray’s attorney Brad Brian made an appearance on Larry King Live. He was quite a ChattyKathy. ChattyKathy must have been excited about being on TV. It’s said :: by sayers of things :: that television cameras add ten pounds to big egos :: but Brad seemed to swell by at least twenty-five. Swellings often correlate negatively with decision making skillz.
A PR appearance on national television so shortly after the commencement of a criminal proceeding is inappropriate. Very inappropriate. Walking through the grocery store naked and covered in milk inappropriate. But this was more than your average milk covered dalliance :: the Larry King show was directly involved with the lead-up to the tragic events in Sedona. Ray’s multiple appearances on King’s show helped to propel his Death Star. Worse still :: King’s executive producer Wendy Walker {pictured here} is rumored to be :: or have been :: a devotee of Ray and The Secret. So before Mr. Brian had squeezed a single word out of his swelled cake hole … he was skating on thin ethical ice.
Oh but then he opened up his mouth … and the disaster really got going.
Lawyers :: along with making blush worthy sums :: have special ethical obligations over and above those imposed on regular Jane and Joe Blows. Like so …
California Rule of Professional Conduct 5-120(A) ::
“A member who is participating or has participated in the investigation or litigation of a matter shall not make an extrajudicial statement that a reasonable person would expect to be disseminated by means of public communication if the member knows or reasonably should know that it will have a substantial likelihood of materially prejudicing an adjudicative proceeding in the matter.”
So don’t say anything to the press that could have an adverse effect on the fairness of the trial. Duh! But what counts as “materially prejudicing an adjudicative proceeding?” Well the notes to the rule {which are considered almost as important as the rule itself} offer some not too subtle hints about the kinds of BS you should definitely not be saying …
(1) — information clearly inadmissible as evidence in the matter for the purpose of proving or disproving a material fact in issue
… like Brad Brian’s unsubstantiated personal opinions about the demography and state of mind of hundreds of different victims and/or witnesses … quoting Brad on Larry …
“What I think it means is that the people who went to this are, are largely, uhm, professionals, uhm, I’m not saying that they’re rich folks … but they’re, they’re people that are not duped. They’re people who make voluntary choices. They’re looking for the kind of balance, the kind of motivation that James provides.”
First of all :: Balance is Bogus :: read some of your boy’s crap. Second :: participant state of mind is a “material fact in issue” … and ChattyKathy’s opinions on the subject ain’t admissible. Assumption of prejudice.
Larry King :: “Were any people psychologically pressured not to leave?”
Brad Brian :: “There was encouragement but no compulsion, everything was voluntary.”
Come on! Seriously? Brad Brian is qualified to make that complex psychological determination? Nope :: no effing way. Only an expert who meets strict and formalized criteria would be allowed to answer a question like that. Inadmissible and prejudicial to a material fact.
(2) — whether the extrajudicial statement presents information the member knows is false or deceptive
That is the big one :: the mother ship of don’ts. Don’t do it ChattyKathy …
“When this thing happened, he immediately reached out to the families.”
Nope :: false. He sure didn’t.
“But when they found out there was a problem they called 911. He and his team tried to take care of people … James himself was holding an IV and was trying to help until the authorities detained him.”
Nope :: false. It happened nothing at all like that.
Larry King :: “Had he done these before?”
Brad Brian :: “He had done these … yes.”
Larry King :: “No incidents before?”
Brad Brian :: “He had one I’ll call it, I don’t want to call it minor, but one incident in 2005 where a gentlemen became somewhat disoriented.”
Nope :: false and deceptive. Plus … mucho ridiculouso. That gentlemen may have suffered permanent brain damage. He’s lost almost everything … to include his wife :: job :: and money. He came out screaming :: throwing wild punches :: and performing super human feats of crazy. There were many other documented :: and horrifying :: incidents over the years … up to and including 2008.
“The notion that he somehow abandoned people, he didn’t.”
Unless by “abandoned” you mean “abandoned” … in which case … he did.
The California Rules are patterned on the Model Rules of Professional Conduct. Model Rules are created by the American Bar Association :: after lots of super lame cat fights between anal retentive freakos :: so that lazy state courts and legislators can copy them into law without having to do too much deep thinking.
The comments to ABA Model Rule 3.6 provide additional guidance to …
“certain subjects that are more likely than not to have a material prejudicial effect on a proceeding, particularly when they refer to a civil matter triable to a jury, a criminal matter, or any other proceeding that could result in incarceration.”
Lay it on us ABA …
(1) the character, credibility, reputation or criminal record of a party, suspect in a criminal investigation or witness, or the identity of a witness, or the expected testimony of a party or witness;
Now you ChattyKathy …
“James Ray, I’ve gotten to know him, a lot. And I can say this, he thinks about those three people every minute of every day since October 8th. He does. He’s devastated … and I really mean that.”
Speaks clearly to his character and credibility. And as a bonus … it’s hyperbole which is per se false and deceptive.
And now to the second mother ship …
(4) any opinion as to the guilt or innocence of a defendant or suspect in a criminal case or proceeding that could result in incarceration;
Makes sense right? A lawyer can’t be pleading his clients innocence in the mass media. It threatens the sanctity of the judicial process … and thus The Constitution … a kind of important document that members of the Bar are sworn to uphold.
This is where supposed “top” lawyer Brad Brian really spreads his wings and crashes ::
“This was a tragic accident, nobody … nobody … including James, could have foreseen consequences anything like this. And remember, these people, who died, were his students and his friends.”
The foreseeability of the consequences is THE WHOLE CASE in a manslaughter trial. Manslaughter = recklessness. Recklessness = foreseeable but you just had to do it anyway.
James Shore and James Ray were friends? Somebody better tell that to the truth.
More …
“He did not expect anything like this, nobody did.”
Again …
“The defense is that this is a tragic accident. That that, nobody, certainly not James, did not foresee consequences like this. He took, as I said earlier, he took safeguards that, as far as we can tell, are, are go beyond other sweat lodges.”
Bonus edition …
“This should not be a criminal case. This was an accident.”
As just one final cherry on top of this ethics violating smörgåsbord … ABA Rule 3.6 :: Comment [6] …
“Another relevant factor in determining prejudice is the nature of the proceeding involved. Criminal jury trials will be most sensitive to extrajudicial speech.”
Well isn’t that special? It’s a literal textbook case of the worst kinds of extrajudicial speech. Mr. Brian and his flunkies will argue that they had the right to “make a statement that a reasonable member would believe is required to protect a client from the substantial undue prejudicial effect of recent publicity not initiated by the member or the member’s client.” Rule 5-120 (C) However :: that same rule also states that “a statement made pursuant to this paragraph shall be limited to such information as is necessary to mitigate the recent adverse publicity.
{a} usually a response is only “required” to counter inappropriate public comments made by the prosecutors or law enforcers whose opinions :: like the defense attorney’s :: the public will tend to lend more credibility than other parties who are apart of the debate {like me!} … the counter party in this litigation has made virtually no public statements … and has certainly not said or done anything prejudicial that “required” a response.
{bee} a “required” response must be proportional. A twenty minute sit down with Larry King could only be an appropriate response to the national media coverage of the matter. James Ray is a fake guru :: not a national hero like The Juice. The national coverage up to Feburay 4th had been sparse :: mostly timid :: and fair. Munger Tolles & Olson :: and James Ray :: were given a chance to comment on most {if not all} of the stories.
{see} false or misleading statements are NEVER :: NEVER :: NEVER :: okay.
Immediately following this bizarre display of ethical :: and moral :: ineptitude … prosecutors filed for a gag order. Gag orders aren’t supposed to be required anymore because their essence has been codified into the rules of professional conduct. But ChattyKathy obviously doesn’t care about being a professional :: and can’t be trusted to keep his yap shut..
Judge Darrow took the matter under advisement and reminded attorneys “to comply with ethical rules that govern their conduct.”
Indeed. Or at the very least :: don’t flagrantly violate them as though they don’t exist.
The Salty Droid refrained rage on this matter out of respect for having respect for things. But recent irritating events seem to call for a re-evaluation of who exactly is deserving of respect.
Since Death Ray’s release on reduced bail :: after disclosures about his unimpressive finances :: he has continued to sell his unicorn dreams. He has bombarded the Internets with messages of his secret knowledge :: just unattainable :: available at high cost. His message continues to completely ignore the existence of his victims :: their humanity :: and the very real effects of his actions. His only concern seems to be salvaging what’s left of his sinking guruhood.
Someone has to take the dirty job of defending this vile stain in court. Inside the court :: Brad Brian should do everything he can to keep the State from introducing into evidence what happened to Colleen in San Diego. If the pattern of hostile abuse is shown for what it is :: Ray has no hope of acquittal :: so fair play fighting its admission. But outside the court :: a professional {and/or a decent human being} has the moral obligation to realize that something did happen to Colleen. She died because of a sickness that permeates every last sinew of James Arthur Ray’s coercive sales techniques. He continues to take risks with the lives of others :: he continues to cash checks written in anticipation of services that he can’t :: and never could :: actually render.
At least four people have died :: and there could be more before it’s all over. MTO attorneys don’t want witnesses using the word “Jim Jones” in court. Fine. But Jim Jones was a real dude :: and there are real corollaries. The kool-aid ugliness happened only after Congressman Ryan was killed :: the point of no return. How will Ray react if he begins to realize that he is doomed? I don’t know :: and neither does Brad Brian.
Mr. Brian’s appearance on Larry King :: speaking to Ray’s long targeted demographic :: felt more like business PR than justice :: like he too had a concern for preserving James Arthur Ray’s guruhood. The legal defense of an objectively obvious trouble maker calls for extraordinary care :: and that’s not what’s being shown.
Any concerned citizen can file a complaint with The State Bar of California Attorney Discipline System about possible ethical lapses of its members. Investigations into ethical violations can lead to stiff sanctions :: including disbarment. I have just filed such a complaint against Brad Brian.
If you are in some way party to this matter :: then stand clear of this inflammatory action. But if you are a neutral :: and you’re concerned about Death Ray’s ongoing activities and the moral and ethical propriety of his attorneys … then I enthusiastically encourage you to file a complaint with the State Bar as well. Here’s the form … with some of the confusing details already filled out for you by a certain robotic superhero …
The instructions request “no arguments.” They don’t need help deciding the outcome … so simply state the rule that you think may have been violated {5-120} … and list off a couple {not all} of the statements you think serve as good examples of the violation. Sometimes shorter is better.
In spite of serious concerns about the tragic :: and possibly dangerous :: context of the case … the attorneys at Munger Tolles & Olson seem to think they’re going to play extrajudicial hardball. That’s fine by me :: softball is for lesbians.
>> bleep bleep
PS — This post was brought to you free of profanity by the good people at the Red Fork Church of God in Tulsa :: who remind me that :: “One can be humorous with a sarcastic witt without the bad language. Give it a try!” :: Consider it tried!











Salty I just love how you serve up the delicious ice cold and chilled psychological wine of intoxicating reality blows to these cream pie pigs.
I know this is only an appetizer, topped with the oh so sweet, rich, thick and creamy whipped cream of whipping the cream out of fattened cream pie pigs, but still… I’m enjoying this delicious meal and just like many California restaurants, we get to build our meal right along with you, Salty. Yum yum, my mouth is watering after having submitted my share of complaints about our wonderful cream pie friend, Brad Brian.
Done and done ;) Just love how this blog is becoming more and more interactive.
@James Arthur Ray, imagine thousands of us interwebz peeps, with Kirk Franklin’s “Revolution” playing in the background , sipping a soda, on the cell phone sharing all your sins with our circle of family&friends, and flames of karma flying out of the tips of our fingers bringing you and your ilk to beyond justice. ;) {hats off to Pattie O}
[Reply]
The fax number to fax in the complaint FAX: (213) 765-1168. Can all be done from the comfort of your easy chair right now :)
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
@Hypnotic Karma ::
Nah :: don’t fax it. Mail it. And don’t forget to sign each individual page.
I put the wrong date on the pdf … now it’s fixed. Don’t use the one with the wrong date.
This is a huge law firm … so the bar is not going to be too excited about receiving these. Make sure to dot all your i’s so they can’t find any easy excuses for throwing them away.
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Wow. Kinda gets right to the meat of the whole thing, doesn’t it? Seems like at least one organization will be forced to show it’s true colors, based on actions and reactions to this information.
Good on you, Droid.
DQ
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OK, I am not 100% sure if I understand all of this, so forgive me for sounding lame.
Could James Ray have not circumvented this entire problem by having a PR guy, not a lawyer, go on Larry King? That’s assuming he could have found someone with the necessary bob-and-weave skill to pull it off.
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Jean D Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
@Hippo, Why do you keep making statements to the effect that Ray could have “gotten out of this”? He deserves no compassion whatsoever.This story interested me initially for 2 reasons: compassion for the loved ones of the deceased victims and survivors, and because there was a desecration of a Native American sweat lodge.
Screw James Ray,his lawyers,PR reps,minions,followers and all his evil brothers: Manson,Koresh,Jones,Applewhite,Rajneesh,Moon…the living hustledorks featured on this blog. May they rot in hell together. But before they get there,let’s do what we can to stop them and see that justice is served.
@Droid You rock!
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E=MC^2 Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
@Jean D, this may not be accurate, but in my opinion Hippo was only trying to say that James Ray was quite blatant in his behavior and actions. Had he at least pretended to be compassionate, the public and the authorities may not have been as outraged. The truth is that without the many efforts of Salty, you and many others visiting this blog, James Arthur Ray could have gotten off without any criminal charges.
As much as I totally agree with you that JAR and the rest of these evil gutter snipes deserve to rot in hell, I am unfortunately aware of the fact that the social system which we find ourselves in is deeply flawed and callous about these things.
Once again, that is just what I have been getting out of Hippo’s statements, but she will have to tell us herself.
With that in mind, I personally think it was impossible for James Ray to do anything other than what he has been doing, because he intentionally targeted people to die for his own sick and twisted God complex. Just take a look at some of his trigger phrases
“What had to die in you …?
“Take a LEAP of faith” – a very common LGAT phrase.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
@Jean D,
I think that E=MC2 probably is saying it better than I am.
I am taking this position: Pretend I am James Ray, and three people have just died in my sweat lodge. How do I do damage control? First, I spend time with the injured people in the hospital, I give everybody refunds, I cancel events, etc.
Now, despite my PR efforts, I am charged in a criminal case. Now how do I do damage control? Well, I DON’T send my lawyer to do things which are violative of the rules of professional conduct, so I find a layperson who is not subject to those rules, put HIM on Larry King, and have him spin things in my favor.
So I guess what I am saying is, the situation is bad enough. James Ray continues to make it WORSE for himself, over and over, rather than mitigating the damage.
I’m not trying to make excuses for him–I wish they had kept him locked up with no bail, found him guilty at trial, and then given him life imprisonment. He’s a danger to society, and needs to be prevented from broadcasting his BS.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
@Hippo ::
Him having a PR guy is another reason why making the appearance wasn’t very ethical in the first place. His client has the same PR guy as Goldman Sachs … so I really don’t think we need to worry about him getting railroaded in the “press”. Mr. Brian only needs to respond if the prosecutor says something out of line … the whoring blow holes can respond to the press.
Also remember when you’re thinking about Ray’s lame actions after the events … that’s his actions with PR consultation! They go hide in the gift shop and call lawyers and PR people. What the hell are they good for? Did they tell him :: “pretend like it’s all good … get back out there right away super trooper! It’s never not a good time for the hard sell”
Of course :: maybe without them he would have been like :: “They deserved this fate :: let us burn their bodies and dance!”
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
To Mr. Salty:
This is where I am having a hard time understanding things. Even WITH PR advice, he is behaving outrageously, which makes me wonder if he is following the advice he’s being given, or if his PR advisors are nuts.
Sometimes, you can’t control your client, which may be what’s going on here. Ray seems to have NO sense of how poorly he comes across.
Hopefully his stupid choices after the sweat lodge will dig him into an even deeper hole than he would be otherwise. I don’t know if he has any kind of internet following at this point, but he needs to be stopped from lecturing, coaching, or whatever he’s doing.
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Poop Chute Reply:
July 25th, 2010 at 8:24 am
@Hippo, nicely put. Considering the blatant violations Ray’s attorney is displaying on national TV, it’s easy to imagine the PR guys giving some nutty advice, too.
I had a friend get taken down by the Feds several years ago. He was pulling in $5 million a month at the time. Had the best PR guys and attorneys money could retain.
As the case dragged on and on and on the feds wore him down and with no sales and attorney and PR guy fees through the roof, he soon ran completely out of funds.
He told me — it wasn’t until he’d run out of money and qualified for a public defender that he realized all those high-priced guys were interested in were billable hours. He told me the only spirited defense he got was from the public defenders.
It’s not above PR guys to spin it so that Ray continues to stay in trouble longer so they’re needed more.
NOT saying they’re responsible. The point is if you’re as smart as Jackass Ray always says he is, you’re also smart enough to double-check ALL advice…high-priced or otherwise. At least run it through the damned logic circuits first.
I think Ray’s “reasoning circuits” are crossed somewhere. He definitely needs to be put away for a long long while. I don’t see any reason to hope he might ever turn into a productive human being.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
OFF-TOPIC–not sure where to post this:
Tony Robbins has a reality show called “Breakthrough With Tony Robbins” premiering Tuesday, July 27, on NBC. I think it’s airing at 8:00 PM.
I find it somewhat tacky under the circumstances–the whole idea of pushing yourself beyond your limits–but I’m sure that the producers would assure us that this has NOTHING to do with the kinds of risks that James Ray would have us take.
[Reply]
Billy Bob Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
@Hippo, Maybe he we will show that with a magic cape, people really CAN fly off of tall buildings. I’d recommend letting him demonstrate first.
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Hippo Reply:
July 24th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
@Billy Bob,
I’m sure he’s using this reality show to drum up business for his seminars–so far, he’s been either more careful or luckier than James Ray, but who knows what will happen?
Tony Robbins doesn’t have to fry a room full of people to death–someone could have a psychotic break at one of his events.
I’m not sure if he has broken any laws, but I would like to see this guy put out of business, along with James Ray.
[Reply]
Duff Reply:
July 25th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
@Hippo,
Tony Robbins is the guru that launched a thousand fast-talking salesman self-help gurus. Hence why James Ray copied some of his stories word-for-word, gesture-for-gesture.
[Reply]
Great stuff Droid.
I’m not a US citizen so I can’t file a complaint. I hope plenty of others do.
Brad Brian: “And I can say this, he thinks about those three people every minute of every day…”
…And the fourth we are all trying banish from the record.
WINNER!! ::
+11
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Excellent work as usual, Droid. And by the way, today, July 25, is the one-year anniversary of the death of Colleen Conaway. I wonder if James Ray will remember this date.
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[Re my comment above: Well, it's July 25 already by *my* time; I saw by the date stamp that it's still July 24 in Droid's neck of the woods.]
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Hippo Reply:
July 25th, 2010 at 9:20 am
@Cosmic Connie,
Well, it’s July 25 Droid Time and Pacific Daylight Time–I’m going to light a candle for Colleen.
Bless her trusting heart and enthusiastic spirit.
[Reply]
Moment of silence in memory of Colleen…………
May the Death Ray rot in prison.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
I can’t do it. I can’t pass up an opportunity to dis’ the name of the law firm – Is Brad Brian a munger, a troll, or feeling sorry for Death Ray because he’s olsoned?
Urban Dictionary might provide the clue – not for those who may be easily offended or grossed out.
[Reply]
Although, I’ve never known Colleen Conaway, I feel a sad loss, especially today. When I look at Colleen, she looks like she could be my sister, the sweet lady next door, the schoolteacher of our kids. She could have very easily been your mother, your sister, your daughter, your loved one.
Colleen, like Liz Neuman, James Shore and Kirby Brown were healthy, normal people who simply wanted to improve themselves and the quality of life for their loved ones. They did not bargain with losing everything.
It is one year today, that marks Colleen Conaway’s passing and James Arthur Ray still has not so much as refunded the thousands of dollars he took from Colleen Conaway, nor has he acknowledged or apologized. He left Colleen to die and pretended she didn’t exist as he is doing now.
James Arthur Ray, how do you look yourself in the mirror everyday? How can you stand the sight of your own face? It must be pure insanity, because you’re acting as if nothing happened, as if someone simply stubbed their toe. When I look at you in your videos, you look ordinary, except when you open your mouth. Then I realize that evil exists and it is very real, and you’re it.
You knew the risks and consequences of what you were doing for many years. Your involvement with LGAT, Scientology, and other mind control programs not only made you a very skilled mind control manipulator, but you had to have known about all those people stripping naked, and jumping to their own death as a direct result from these programs and seminars. You were involved way too deep and way too long not to have known.
Justice will be served to you James Arthur Ray. You are not God, you are not a “thought leader”, you’re not even human. You are nothing, you never were anything, and you never will be anything. I hope your mind turns on you and you go looney just long enough to strip naked in public and blabber all kinds of confessions until they lock you up for good.
I pray for Colleen Conaway’s family that they may have the support system they need to heal and cope with the loss. Don’t want to offend anyone’s religious or spiritual beliefs here, but I do believe Colleen and all the others are in a much better place and very aware of what goes on here and one day they will be reunited with their family and friends.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Done and done. Thanks for writing this SD. Have a nice time sleeping at night, looking in the mirror and entering the gates of hell Brad Brian.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
@Bryan Neuman ::
Hopefully he’ll start seeing the gates of hell while he’s looking in the mirror :: blow drying his delicate man puff.
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James Arthur Ray has some really strange facial expressions. Almost as if he’s possessed.
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Dear Munger Tolles & Olsen ::
Two days later … first page of your SERPs!! I know you Windows XP :: blackberry loving :: anachronisms don’t know what that means … but you will.
Ha!
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Munger Tolles & Olsen Exposed? Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Has Munger Tolles & Olsen been exposed? What is the big Munger Tolles & Olsen scandal, concerning James Arthur Ray about?
Clients turn to Munger, Tolles & Olson when the stakes are high, and Munger, Tolles & Olson (MTO) tries to build its reputation by providing their clients with legal services, but are you aware that Brad Brian has been breaching the code of ethics that all attorneys are bound to?
If Brad Brian forgets his civic and legal duty as an attorney for the right price, who’s to say that Munger, Tolles & Olson (MTO) and Brad Brian will not forsake you as a client for the right price?
Brad D. Brian, attorney at Munger, Tolles & Olson, really wants his client, James Arthur Ray win. James Arthur Ray killed Colleen Conaway and left her for dead, but Brad D. Brian at Munger, Tolles & Olson is too busy speaking to the media about what a wonderful
man James Arthur Ray is.
Munger, Tolles & Olson
Munger, Tolles & Olson
Munger, Tolles & Olson
Munger, Tolles & Olson
Monger, Tolles & Olson
Munger, Tolles & Olsen
Monger, Tolles & Olsen
Brad Brian
Brad D. Brian
Brad Bryan
Brad Bryan
Brad D Bryan
Brad Brain
Brad D. Brain
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
@Munger Tolles & Olsen Exposed? ::
:)
… tread lightly friend.
’tis a very dangerous enemy this.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:57 am
@SD & Exposed,
Just for clarity, “Olson” is the correct form, not “Olsen”.
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@Droid The photoshopping of Ray’s bail hearing strabismic gaze on to the Jonestown horror picture is very spot on. That was a horrible tragedy in our nation’s history. Memories of that day,as well as the news of the Heaven’s Gate deaths,were exactly the incidents that were triggered in my mind last fall when CNN reported on the Sedona tragedy.
It doesn’t matter how many people die from cult tactics,the 4 people Ray killed,Colleen,Kirby,James and Liz,were each valuable and precious, and did not deserve to have their lives cut short by a madman.
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Hippo Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
@Jean D,
Amen! Also, I love your use of the word “strabismic.”
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Docs just uploaded to the Yavapai site. Interesting reading – the usual mix laughable nonsense from Ray, incisive comments from the prosecutors, and recurring shocks of new inforformation. Like lurching from a Laurel and Hardy showing into a horror movie.
I’m going through this one at the moment-
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/07-23-2010%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION.pdf
>> Contrary to Defendant’s accusation that the State has contaminated the jury pool, the record shows that not only did Defendant object to the State’s request for a gag order, Defendant and his attorneys engaged in many extra-judicial comments prior to this Court’s granting the State’s request.
Moreover, these comments, which were totally initiated and controlled by Defendant also resulted in PUBLIC VITRIOL.
For example, on January 24, 2010, Defendant granted an exclusive interview with New York Magazine and provided his version of what occured….As of July 12, 2010, there were 774 comments posted to the article…. <<
They quote Cyberman25
"What goes around comes around, James. Why don't you use your thoughts, feelings and actions to rid yourself of your herpes, or your current legal troubles. Good luck. When in hell, only the devil can help you."
………
So take a bow Hippo, Jean and all the others!
And take a bow Lee Kuan (the crazy one) too, for showing the court what kind of supporters Death Ray has.
WINNER!! ::
+10
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Hippo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
@Yakaru,
Awesome! Thank you!!
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Hippo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
@Yakaru,
Forgot to add–I’m tickled pink that the prosecutor’s office is reading all of our pithy comments from the New York Magazine article. Some of them are brilliant.
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babzilicious Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
@Hippo,
What?!?!? Really!! Wow. :-D
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Yakaru Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 4:27 am
@babzilicious,
Yeh, it’s great to see such a clear effect on proceedings. (I only made one comment on that thread, I think.)
Clearly, that overwhelming response establishes the prosecutors’ case that they are not responsible for any negative perceptions of Ray. As they happily point out, that was the public response to Ray’s own carefully orchestrated PR campaign!
And isn’t it a typical ray-ism: to screw something up himself, ignore the blowback, and then try and pin the blame on someone else.
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Hippo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 9:29 am
@babzilicious,
The New York Magazine article is where I first made the acquaintance of both you and JeanD, and I think maybe Omikse posts here as well. I didn’t realize until I looked back how many posts I had made there (DR. GERBIL), at least twenty, maybe more.
It’s also where our “ladies drinking lemonade on the porch” idea got started. I thank Jean for that one. Every time I think of lemonade, I think of her.
I had no idea that the Yavapai County DA’s office was reading our comments, and I hope we helped in some small way.
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 9:56 am
@Hippo,
I know – that was a great round of discussions we had going!! And despite the fact that our lives were threatened, some good came out of it, getting to know you all.
I am not at all optimistic about where the case is headed – the trial being postponed until 2011 (or longer) … I really feel this is a “strike while the iron is hot” kind of thing; it’s almost been one year as it is. Wait too much longer and the prosecution’s witnesses won’t remember anything, and the defense’s witnesses will have their lies perfectly crafted.
*sigh* :-/
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 9:58 am
@babzilicious,
I’m replying to my own reply … egads!
I wanted to rephrase what I said – not that the prosecution’s witnesses won’t remember – I know that for people like Beverly Bunn, this is forever etched in memory. So that wasn’t the intent of my statement.
Hippo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 10:41 am
@babzilicious,
Yes, our lives were threatened, but thankfully an awesome group of “old ladies” was able to push LeeKuan off the porch, since he didn’t want to play nice.
wondering why Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
@Yakaru,
Oh my gosh..my comments are on that page..under “GALLEN” Thanks Yakaru for providing that link!!
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
@wondering why, Oops I spelled Colleen’s last name wrong on one of my comments on the NYM site but I was so upset about JAR’s lies in that article I didn’t double check it..(My apologies to Colleen’s family)
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 11:26 am
@Yakaru, Thanks for posting the court docs and thanks for the props. The comments at NY Mag were very interesting, indeed, way before I got there and until Lee Kuan flamed it and ran folks off. BTW it was Babzilicious who got LK kicked off there.
Why is Ray complaining about the negative comments at NYMag? Wasn’t the interview his idea in the first place? And how narcissist of him to be upset about the herpes comment. Is he afraid it will drive away potential sexual conquests? Awww,too bad.It sucks to be you,dude.
Minor correction,@Hippo,dear.I just turned 53,am very active and so far,still have an intact memory….Okay,what was I saying?
@Brad It’s okay to feel like hurting or committing physical harm to people we hate.Acting on those feelings is different. That’s what separates a criminal from a non-criminal or a just society from a non-just one. We all get frustrated by the justice system and it’s hard to accept how defense attorneys go to any lengths to win an acquittal. Case in point, someone messaged me the other day to inform me that the DeathRay team has “plants” posting on these boards who appear “sympathetic to our cause”,but are actually trying to deflect attention from the macabre details of his crimes! Good luck,boys.It’ll be a cold day in hell before you can change our minds!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 11:57 am
@Jean D,
LOL–I would have loved to have taken credit for getting LeeKuan kicked off that board, but as you said, it was Babzilicious. I’m 57 and my memory is iffy, but it’s not completely gone.
I am honored to have made the acquaintance of so many nice folks there and here–let’s have some more lemonade.
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
@Hippo,
Hooray for lemonade! My banana nut bread will be coming out of the oven in about 15 minutes … :-)
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
@Hippo, @Jean D,
That’s right! We may be peri/post/currently menopausal, with our memory-challenged selves, but we don’t take shit offa nobody!
The real kudos go to Alexandra Martin from NY Mag, who kept an eye on the conversation, and banned LeeKuan. Oh – speaking of which – you should see his latest pathetic attempts to stir people up. Now he’s saying things like, “Obviously you have no honor if you would not abide by an agreement that you signed, so I will not even argue with you.” *rolls eyes*
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
@Yakaru,
Just read through the document you posted. Good grief, such whining from the defense! You put yourself out there, with your version of the truth, you gotta expect the possibility of backlash.
What I think will cause even more damage is JAR’s refusal to answer Dan Harris’s question when Dan called into the LIF radio show. Not only that JAR refused, but also that he did it in such a flippant manner.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
@babzilicious,
The whole strategy from the defense is clearly just stalling tactics. I can’t imagine the lawyers having any illusions about the merit of their claims and are probably also getting sick of their psychopathic client.
I note your earlier comment about being a bit downhearted about the postponement, but since reading that document, I actually have a bit more hope that he will eventually be prosecuted.
The descriptions for the photos from the 2008 lodge make it totally clear that a catastrophe was only narrowly avoided. Here are the notes that were attached to each:
…
* about five minutes after the last round of the sweat lodge. It looked like a triage unit.
* me with water cup. I was so weak I could not sit up. I was one of 12 people that went the full 7 rounds and did not leave the sweat lodge.
* This is [name], the woman who was unconscious and I was told she was just having an out of body experience and would be coming around soon. They were trying to get her eyes to open.
* This is Michael who was pinching [the unconscious woman's] feet trying to get a response from her
……
Who knows what will happen in the trial, but I think the prosecution has surprisingly good concrete evidence for such a tricky case.
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
@Yakaru,
Yes, I read the captions for those photos! How interesting that the 2008 and 2009 lodges were both described as looking like “a triage unit.”
And upon rethinking my original disappointment at the trial not taking place until next year, one good thing that could come of it is that more people will step up and tell their story, to further strengthen the prosecution’s case.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Good job interwebz people! Making the case file in support of the good. All these small things add up over time … to us really kicking his ass.
couple comments …
1. That document is the prosecution’s response to the defense tying to change the venue. I think it’s pretty great. The venue thing is just a stalling tactic … it’s obviously going to lose. In the example cases that are cited {child rape/murder … and the first cop killed in Tucson in 20 years} … local press must have been totally crazy … but they still couldn’t get a venue change. In this this case … most of the press has been national :: the locals don’t have that much reason for concern … none of their own were lost.
2. Someone told me that the court house is located on a thin strip of white man land between two big areas of indian land. So for the sake of poetic justice … I really hope it doesn’t get moved.
3. Ray’s lawyers keep arguing that he’s being “prejudiced” in the press … but as long as he keeps selling his BS … he’s bringing it on himself. You can’t complain about press you invite. They need to shut him up if they’re going to keep making it.
4. I also feel very good about this case. Only a fool {which Ray probably is} would let it go to trail.
5. Enjoy your lemonade ladies.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
@SD,
I’m so glad that the prosecution is aware of that New York Magazine article and the comments that go with it.
Without studying each comment in detail, I would estimate that 5% – 10% support James Ray, and the rest are negative. Probably some of these are JRI shills with an agenda, but the majority of posters are probably just members of the general public voicing their opinions. And forgetting LeeKuan entirely, who is clearly insane.
So this is an excellent example of Ray trying to spin the situation in his favor, and the response he gets.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
@SD, YAY Salty!! Thank you so much for your words of wit and wisdom and providing us a forum for justice for the victims of JAR!!! I know that it has helped greatly in the bringing of this Justice to fruition.
[Reply]
it’s incredible that this scumbag is able to still operate. he’s weaseled his way right back into -coaching- people again. it goes without saying that the large amount of twitter followers and blog readers he has are still brainwashed by this puke.
one thing i can’t stand about political correctness, side skirting laws, and the b.s. that has become america (yes, i’m an american) is how an evil, disgusting pig like ray can continue to operate. this guy should be taken out in the backyard, tied to a tree and beat with a baseball bat like a pinata until he’s dead. one smash in the head from each living family member of the people he killed.
here this guy is out of jail and right back on the same website, selling the same bullshit, to the same people, with the opportunity to commit the same kind of murders.
salty, i sincerely hope that you get this disgusting animal locked up for life. here in america we won’t give anyone the death penalty unless they did something as blunt as shooting someone in the face. ray deserves every bit of a death penalty. he should be thrown off of a 3 story building and if that doesn’t kill him, put him in a human sized ziploc bag to finish the job, james ray style.
i hope you bring down vitale too. he’s the biggest seller of complete b.s. this century with his 509 shitty books and courses. he’s left a large trail of victims with empty pockets -hypnotized- and financially devastated.
brad
[Reply]
208-577-6210 Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 8:59 am
@Brad, Not sure about the Saudi School of Justice idea. Completely agree that James shouldn’t be allowed to freely trade and promote his crappy products when they’re at the heart of an investigation – but perhaps they should find a way to prevent him that doesn’t involve pulling out his fingernails/slowly driving over his legs/having a lion chew his face off as he slowly roasts on an open flame, etc, etc. The 21st century may be a bit too PC, but it’s not all wrong.
[Reply]
Brad Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
@208-577-6210,
i wouldn’t call it a saudi school of justice. an eye for an eye as stated in the bible.
i also have a feeling that if YOUR mom was killed in ray’s sweat lodge, you’d have a different tone, no?
or if it was YOUR sister who was starved, sleep deprived, and thrown into a socially demented situation which caused her to jump stories to her death, you’d also be singing a different tune, eh?
here’s how it is. ray was responsible for the circumstances that forced colleen to jump of that ledge. on top of that, he covered it up. when that happened, he should have been investigated, banned from practicing anything to do with -personal development- as he has zero education in the field, and jailed for the cover up.
but was he?
nope. he went on to continue his amateur side show of made up -strategies- which resulted in three more deaths. wow, a hat trick this time. we’re closing in on a half dozen bodies.
while you may think this is no big deal. remember this, this asshole has killed 4 people now along with injuring numerous others. he’s back to the same b.s. that’s been responsible for those deaths.
he has no remorse, no regard for human life, and could care less about any damage he’s inflicted on people.
two separate incidents resulting in death(s). it kind of goes without saying that he has no business subjecting people to this homicidal information but will he stop? only when he’s dead or in jail.
[Reply]
[...] actions by Chris Cardell or Preovolos & Associates. I’m kind of in the mood for filing ethics complaints anywayz [...]
very bad news everyone. james ray has resurrected all of his death inducing products.
http://liferesultsnow.com/products/store.html
he has also started taking coaching clients to coach to death again.
http://liferesultsnow.com/coach.html
i pray that the lord prevents this man from doing any further harm. he killed one person, covered it up. killed three more people, fled state and bailed out of jail. now he’s on to attempt number three. i sure hope someone stops him before he kills anymore people.
i applaud salty for his efforts but i ask that everyone reading this do one thing. if you ever hear someone mention the secret movie, please tell them about james ray and all of the people he’s killed. word of mouth is the best form of getting the word out.
it’s obvious that all of the media personalities and shows that glamorized this murder machine have no regret for doing so. it’s up to us, the people, to spread the word. even if you only tell one or two people, they will probably spread the word as well because this is extremely gruesome and impossible to forget.
brad
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:20 am
@Brad,
Thanks for posting. I’m confused – how the heck many websites does this guy have in addition to “James Ray International”?
I don’t know if what I’m about to say will sound, how shall I say this, sane – but I’m getting the feeling that JAR’s activities in rebuilding his career were methodically planned out right after Sedona. At first, when his YouTube vids were posted online, there seemed to be a willy-nilly feeling to it all; grasping at straws, desperation. But not now. Now there’s a cold, calculated detachment to it all.
I’m going to post these links on Twitter.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
@babzilicious & @Brad, good for you for posting these links. I think the Life Results site is an old one that has been on the Web for years, but the James Gang has apparently resurrected it and has parked some new videos on it, as well as links to James’ social media activities. And they’re also offering the range of JAR products at “sale” prices. But the infrastructure was already in place. I’m sure JAR’s web presence reaches far beyond JRI and Life Results.
It’s not surprising that JAR would continue to try to make money from existing products and try to create new ones. I mean, the guy does have to make a living while he’s awaiting trial. I would like to think that as long as he is not out there conducting extreme events — or any events — the populace is fairly safe.
However, critics are also well within their rights, and I would go so far as to argue that there is a responsibility, to continue to point out that this is the guy who was associated with at least four deaths and who knows how many injuries (not to mention the people who drove themselves to the brink of financial ruin by trying to pay for JAR’s events and products).
So, yeah… let’s hear it for free speech.
[Reply]
Brad Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
i definitely disagree. while ray may not be in a lodge or at a mall with people, it’s the information in this shit he’s now selling again that lead to the dead of all of those people.
going by your logic, if a guy has been scamming people by rolling back odometers on cars and gets locked up…if he bails out, he should be able to go right back to the car lot and start selling cars.
brad
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
@Brad, you make a good point of course. And I hope it does not seem that I am defending JAR or his products; my main point was that it’s not surprising that he would continue to try to sell whatever he can get away with selling.
I do think that preventing him from putting on events (and from engaging in coaching and mentoring, for f–k sake!) would go a long way towards protecting the public. But it’s not surprising that many would think these restrictions do not go far enough. That may be so. All of this raises a question, though: Can JAR be completely banned from selling his current line of products, or creating similar products, without running afoul of the US Constitution?
I think that morally, the right thing for him to do would be to get out of the selfish-help business entirely and find another way to make a living. But legally, I don’t know how many restrictions can be placed upon his business ventures at this point.
[Reply]
Brad Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
I think he should be banned from selling any of the crap on his site or representing himself as a self help expert. correct me if i’m wrong salty but can’t a judge prevent a person from practicing a business in which crimes were committed? a la perry belcher?
i wouldn’t give the bum a mop job.
_cartman_ Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
@Brad,
Perry Belcher was committing fraud, it can be easily argued that certain restrictions be followed as part of a probation order, since the activities were inherently illegal.
I understand your frustrations (everyone’s frustrations), but as Connie mentioned, the constitutional issues of such an overall “ban” would be pretty much “insurmountable”. Banning him from CONducting events like “sweat lodges” will be a condition of his parole and probation order.
Anthony Mahavick Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
A couple of years ago, a guy named Vincent James was selling a book and coaching based on his experience running a business that sold penis pills.
He was still on probation from that fraud, so I phoned his probation officer. It turned out that a condition of James’ probation was that he couldn’t start another business of any kind.
James went back to jail because he violated his probation.
Yes, it’s possible to shut these guys down after they’ve been convicted.
_cartman_ Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 2:10 am
@Anthony Mahavick,
You mean this guy
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2002/jun/26/fraud-claims-probed-in-vegas/
————
Vincent James Passafiume
————
I couldn’t find Vincents probation order but I found Michaels. Michael’s probation order has since been discharged…Vincent’s???…
http://web.archive.org/web/20060630045853/www.cp-receivership.com/PDF/cp.court.minutes.probation.granted.pdf
I saw the petition to revoke probation based on a warrantless arrest (sometime earlier part of ’08…I assume that is your doing), but no “real” further information….so….was his probation order revoked?
Nothing shows past april 2009 when the last thing they show is the discharge of Michael’s probation order. I would think that if Vincent’s probation order was revoked it would show in the time line of the court case information…it doesn’t….weird….
Anyways…point still stands…you can shut them down for a time….any conditions on a probation order apply only for the length of the order….
————
CR2003-009276
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/CriminalCourtCases/caseSearch.asp
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 6:50 am
[I am trying to reply to @Anthony Mahavick and @_cartman_ 's responses to me (which may appear below this reply), but the system wouldn't allow it]…
I think that the operative words here are “convicted” and “parole and probation order.” My understanding is that at this point James Ray is prohibited from leaving the US, and there are a few other conditions he must meet while awaiting trial, but to my knowledge there has been no official order to prevent him from selling products, making videos, or conducting any type of business. Whether there *should* be such an order is of course a matter open to debate. Most people here seem to think he should be banned from anything remotely related to self-help. My guy Ron is one of these folks.
Don’t throw tomatoes at me, but I have to confess that I’m still up in the air about some of this.
It seems to me that this is one of those “slippery slope” matters, because if JAR is banned from selling all self-help drivel before he is convicted or even tried, where does it end? Since virtually everything he is teaching is derivative or imitative, should everyone who peddles or preaches the same crap be banned from doing that? After all, it has been argued that scads of people have been harmed in various ways by the stupid ideas in The Secret (to name but one example). Does this mean we should ban The Secret and throw everyone involved with it in jail? (Actually, several of them are doing a pretty good job of moving themselves jail-ward without our help.)
As I said, where does it end?
At worst an outright ban on JAR’s peddling of his crap will lead to more restrictions on everyone’s freedom of expression. I’m not saying this will happen but it could. At best, he’ll be made into a First Amendment martyr like serial con artist Kevin True-dough. And that could just cloud the real issues even more.
I can’t agree with Brad’s suggestion that JAR shouldn’t be allowed any type of job at all though believe me, I understand this sentiment. But what would you have Ray do? Beg on the streets? Be thrown in prison to live off taxpayer money for the rest of his days?
It’s not all black and white.
Jean D Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
@Cosmic Connie, I vote for a long term jail sentence. Unfortunately it’s at tax-payers’ expense,but it costs taxpayers muchisimo money to investigate murders and stage trials. If Death Ray is as sick as he seems, he has frontal lobe damage. Reports state he exhibited antisocial behavior as a youngster which was clearly exacerbated by long-term abuse of hallucinogens and steroids,possible other drugs as he appears to be “drugged up” in most of his videos. He sweats profusely even when sitting and talking to the camera. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2555414/
This would lead us to believe Ray is incapable of stopping himself from hurting people and therefore,must be locked away and be limited in his contact with other humans.
Or if saving money is a priority, he could just be left in a deep canyon somewhere in Arizona with no food or water and allowed to “intend” his way out.
Anthony Mahavick Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am
@_cartman_,
Yes, that’s the guy. The last I heard was that the judge sentenced him to six months of jail time for violating his terms; maybe he appealed that somehow.
My larger point was that it’s sometimes possible to control what these guys do, after they’ve been convicted of something. Maybe not forever, but for long enough to make it fun to pursue them.
[Reply]
Pat Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
@Anthony Mahavick, It’s surprising nobody got in touch with Perry Belcher’s probation officer. After all, he’s under a strict 10 year probation period right now. Belcher admitted, on this very blog, that he used misleading numbers in the marketing of his crappy “social media” product. That is WHILE on probation. There is also a lot of supporting commentary in the posts here that should be enough to give any probation officer (who is doing their job) pause. I guess justice can also be blind, lazy, or out to lunch. On the other hand, Belcher has a long track record at being a scammer, so his natural temptations will probably rise up again.
[Reply]
Anthony Mahavick Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
@Pat,
I’m pretty sure somebody did get in touch with Belcher’s PO. Belcher shut down his Twitter marketing course pretty abruptly after SD started to go after him.
Parole/probation officers have huge caseloads and no training in internet marketing. Passafiume’s PO didn’t even have internet access in the office; I had to print out copies of web sites and snail mail them to him so that he could see what Vinnie was up to.
Tony
[Reply]
SD Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
@Anthony Mahavick ::
I don’t know if anyone contacted Belcher’s PO … but the abrupt end of those “courses” was negotiated by a fake robot without help from the State.
I suspect that if someone had laid it out for his PO {print outs and all} … then action would have been taken … it was kind of a no brainer.
SD Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I’m with @Brad on this. It’s total bullshit that he’s still allowed to sell the very products that have caused all these problems.
A persons right to commercial speech isn’t protected by the First Amendment in the same way as other speech. The government can :: and should :: pass laws about the kinds of goods and services sold :: and by whom .. in order to protect society. For instance :: you can’t hold yourself out a doctor :: lawyer :: financial planner :: veterinarian etc … unless you are one.
You can say whatever you want … you can have whatever half ass ideas you want. But the second you start charging for them … then you accept a huge pile of rules.
James Arthur Ray has been breaking those rules for a long time … and he should be banned from further “personal development” sales. He’s a telemarketer. If he wants to call himself a prophet … then he can beg for rice like all proper prophets do.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
@SD, I understand the distinctions between the protections for commercial speech and regular speech, but so much of the selfish-help/McSpirituality stuff deals in the realm of the abstract and airy-fairy. Promising someone a life of miracles and magic, no matter how absurd that promise is, is not quite the same as practicing law or medicine without a license.
Should all spiritual/inspirational/philosophical works that are offered for money be subject to a pile of rules?
I’m still mulling over some of these matters. I think government regulation has its place but I am still VERY hesitant to advocate any more laws.
That said, I do like the image of Ray begging for rice. Or perhaps cleaning toilets.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 2:11 am
@Cosmic Connie,
I think spiritual advertising should be subjected to normal advertising standards. If they claim “this will improve your life”, ok that can be allowed, because it is sufficiently vague.
But if they claim “this is a scientifically proven law of nature” (as they do in The Secret), or fabricate quotes from famous people in support of their product (as they do in The Secret), then they should be liable to prosecution.
That would weed out a lot of the worst offenders and change the culture of gullibility that the new age has created for itself.
And of course the whole issue of scammers accessing peoples credit accounts needs to be addressed.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 9:04 am
@Yakaru, I’m definitely with you on the issue of scammers having free access to people’s accounts. I’m not so clear about prosecuting the jokers who quote or misquote famous dead people such as Einstein, or those who bastardize quantum physics, as “What The Bleep,” “The Secret,” and a host of even lamer imitators did. I still think ridicule, scorn, and mockery can be very powerful weapons (along with the occasional serious offering from real scientists and experts). And maybe we need to put some reins on the defamation attorneys.
Again I have to ask where the b.s. policing stops. Like the new age, organized religion has also created and nurtured a culture of gullibility. This of course has been going on for many centuries, and the instilled fear of God/Church has been a powerful weapon for those who would take advantage of the gullible and vulnerable. (I don’t want to go off on too much of a tangent here but I do think that the powerful churches that try to influence legislation and politics should have their tax-exempt status yanked right out from under their fat jewel-encrusted behinds.)
My point is that we seem to be a gullible species, easily fooled and easily led. Knock down one segment that takes advantage of this trait, and another will pop up. That doesn’t mean I don’t think we should continue to work to protect ourselves and our fellow humans. We should. What I question is how much we should depend on legislation and enforcement for that protection.
Equally important, how much of a right do we have to make decisions for other people as to what is valuable and what isn’t in the realm of New-Wage/new-age/spiritual matters?
Maybe my head is completely up my aperture on these issues. Maybe, despite my sophistication about New-Wage crap and my general snarkiness, I am still in denial on some levels. I’m willing to entertain that possibility.
Or perhaps one problem is that I’ve spent too much time watching movies such as Sylvester Stallone’s mid-1990s’ “Demolition Man.” Junk food is pretty bad for you, but a world where junk food and even caffeine and salt are completely outlawed doesn’t seem all that attractive either. A world where “all restaurants are Taco Bell,” but a Taco Bell that has been cleaned up and serves only over-priced, under-sized and uber-healthy entrees seems entirely deserving of Stallone’s sneering dismissal.
I guess there has to be a happy medium somewhere.
I will say this: Despite my persistent willingness to cut most people some slack when it comes to peddling nonsense, it truly would *not* break my heart if James Arthur Ray were to be banned from selling any of his current products and from creating any similar products in the future. I do think, however, as I’ve mentioned before, that it could open him up to a whole new sub-career as a First Amendment martyr, a la Kevin True-dough. He could conceivably persuade the paranoid, conspiracy-theory, government-hating contingent to rally to him, along with the usual New-Wage hangers-on who continue to defend him. Something to think about, anyway.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 12:52 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
You’re right of course, to mention mainstream religions, Connie. That is exactly why new age stuff will never be regulated. I doubt even proper accreditation standards would ever even be considered because it would also close down all those creationist colleges. Gee, even Kent Hovind’s PhD thesis might not be deemed acceptable.
http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Young-earth_creationist_Kent_Hovind's_doctoral_dissertation
Luckily new agers still lack the political clout of the religious right and are generally not hate-filled wackjobs. (Though if there was money to be made in being a new age hate-filled wackjob I’m sure some would manage.)
NB: On topic comment — Brad Bryan is still insisting that Ray has been subjected to “ceaseless vitriol” in the Yavapai County press. He doesn’t give references. Maybe he should be quoting Salty Droid and arguing that the trial should be moved outside the US.
mop head Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 4:50 am
@Yakaru, totally agree, but in truth I think spiritual and advertising should not be in the same sentence. Anytime you mix spirituality with money there is bound to be trouble.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 12:58 am
@SD,
I had thought that these types of people deliberately did NOT get any type of license so that there would not be any organizations over-seeing their activities.
This would be the whole point–to be able to skirt the edge of the ethical/moral/legal limits with as much freedom as possible, because it’s so hard to regulate the “services” they offer.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 9:09 am
@Hippo, Very good point. Of course there are those hucksters who got themselves some phony Ph.D.’s to boost their credibility. And then there are all of those “life coaches” and seminar leaders who for all practical purposes are practicing therapy without a proper license, using techniques that are rooted in psychotherapy… so once again we’re in a murky area.
[Reply]
babzilicious Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 10:28 am
@Cosmic Connie, @Hippo,
This unnerves me. Life Coaches abound on Facebook; I see all kinds of advertisements for teleconferences and events … some of which are “how tos” on becoming a life coach. It all seems too willy nilly to me. Joe Vitale has a doctorate – how f***** up is that? I almost feel as if my life could be defined as “everything that happened up to the Sedona tragedy” and “everything that happened after the tragedy.” I was SO much into The Secret, bought and listened to everything James Arthur Ray put out – was planning to see him at a free event in Portland when we arrived here in Oregon after our cross-country move from New Jersey. For years I was a part of a group therapy experience called PTI – Personal Transformation Intensive. James Arthur Ray’s events were very similar to a lot of what we did (including sweat lodges and vision quests) during PTI weekends. In all fairness, the PTI events were led by qualified mental health practitioners, but even still, looking back on it all now … my mantra is “Be your own guru, baby!”
This is decidedly off-topic, but apparently the Twitter pic I was using was showing up extra huge on these pages so I have no pic now … sorry ’bout that, y’all!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 12:39 pm
@babzilicious,
I understand. I was not “into” this stuff as much as you are, but I did buy into some of these beliefs, and I feel very shaken up to learn how much I was deceived.
I used to know somebody who was very interested in the work of Dr. Imoto (sp?) from Japan, who was/is doing experiments with droplets of water, changing the molecular structure by talking to it. She used to scold me, telling me that my thoughts were impacting my own life in a terrible way, and I felt guilty because I could not control my thoughts. By the way, this doctor is mentioned in “What The Bleep Do We Know?”
WELL–I come to find out that Dr. Imoto’s work cannot be duplicated in controlled testing, and therefore, it’s bullshit.
I feel angry that I wasted so much energy on stupid stuff and feeling guilty over nothing.
I agree–be your OWN guru!!
Yakaru Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 3:47 pm
@babzilicious,
I am always impressed when people can change their opinions around something like this. I actually changed my opinions about The Secret too. I thought they were all evil scum, deserving of nothing but contempt. Now I realise I was being way too generous.
………
Also just uploaded to the Yavapai site: some more items to be used by the prosecution, including Ray’s YouTube vids as of June 6 2010.
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/07-30-2010%20DISCLOSURE-9TH%20SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf
SD Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 4:09 pm
@babzilicious ::
I agree … it’s unnerving. The closer you look … the more unnerving it becomes.
The twitter pic thing is my fault not yours. I keep half ass trying to fix it … and failing. So boring.
Hey. Question for you all. James Arthur Ray gave away the ending to the movie “Inception” in a recent tweet (*grumbling*), and, having seen the movie last night, I don’t want to make the same mistake. But for those of you who have seen it … is that like, the ONE movie in the history of cinema that James Arthur ray of all people should NOT have seen? The movie’s premise was chilling enough, but knowing that JAR saw it … brrrr. (For those of you who haven’t seen it yet – go. Now. Turn off your computer, drive to your nearest theater, and pay the 8-10 bucks to see it. Amazing movie. Just amazing.)
[Reply]
James Ray and his attys are shameless. You all are wonderful. Thank you.
[Reply]
[...] actions by Chris Cardell or Preovolos & Associates. I’m kind of in the mood for filing ethics complaints anywayz [...]
[...] can haz ethiks? http://saltydroid.info/munger-tolles-olsen-unattracting-ethics/ [...]
I’ll probably look pretty stupid asking this, but I’ve never filed complaints against a lawyer before:
1. Considering how dated this is, would it still be effective to file? I would assume that it is, but figure I should ask anyway.
2. On the additional sheet of paper, it just needs to be stated what rule he was in violation of? The one listed and then just some quotes from what he said?
3. Do I mail it?
I can just email you if that’s easier to get ‘Peter Doesn’t Know Shit About Ratting on Lawyers’ quality information. I’m a bit of a slow learner.
[Reply]
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