35 Comments »

Rubies said:
It’s just testament to the level of Ray’s consciousness of guilt by him leaving his FRICKIN WALLET and his BRIEFCASE and HIS STEROIDS in his room and getting the hell out of Dodge. I’m surprised he took the time to get dressed in long pants. I wonder at what point he discovered his wallet missing? I would have loved to have seen the look on his face.
WHO LEAVES THEIR WALLET AT THE CRIME SCENE????
Stupid criminals that’s who. Once this trial is over you can watch JAR’s guest appearance on the WHEN STUPID CRIMINALS ATTACK show on TruTV.
I expect Kelly who will be cross-examining Diskin to pull the OJ defense tactic and go for the throat of the investigation. It’ll be the battle of the homeboys. I’d be careful though Mr. Kelly, Diskin is a witness that’s armed.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 8:26 am
@Rubies,
Your post reminded me of comedian Dennis Miller’s comments during the Simpson trial: “O. J., what were you thinking, leaving the Heisman Trophy at the crime scene?!”
He followed this up with: “O.J.’s alibi is shakier than Katharine Hepburn’s head in a helicopter.”
  +2
[Reply]
# 28 April 2011 at 2:40 am

jamo said:
Defense objects to Diskin stating that D Mercer said that people only get hurt at the slaughterer’s sweat lodges when that’s what she said directly to the jury when testifying. I don’t see how that is here-say.
  +4
[Reply]
# 28 April 2011 at 2:52 am

Bethann said:
It was my understanding JAR left in the middle of the night. Josh Fredrickson drove him to the airport. How did he board a plane without ID?
Move to the defense’s story, JAR did not leave until late afternoon October 9th. If he delayed leaving, why leave anything behind?
Learn to expect little from the defense attorney’s, they are not under oath.
(Your sight is great LaVaughan, between you Salty and our loyal group on IS, I can keep up … slightly :)
  +3
[Reply]

Anne Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
@Bethann,
Det Diskin testified that shortly after detectives arrived that night, the room had been cordoned off so that no one, including James Ray, could enter. The next day, upon obtaining a search warrant, his wallet was one of the items seized. So it doesn’t sound like Ray had much chance to get his wallet before leaving.
  +2
[Reply]
# 28 April 2011 at 9:31 am

Injun Samurai said:
A few thoughts this morning…
1. “62,400 repetitions make 1 truth” : That’s a classic line from Aldus Huxley’s Brave New World. Everyone around here keeps talking about the rat / ant /people poison as being such a totally moot straw man, but no one is talking about what the defense is actually doing…
Redundant, repetitive, incessantly badgering the same moot topic… It’s “innocence by association” and it is an abomination. They are not trying to prove any correlation between the event and poison, NOTHING whatsoever has actually linked the event to even the remote possibility of exposure to poisons, but they drone and drone and drone on and on about it until ONE, just one juror out the whole bunch says, “Well, it could have been poison.”
It is so utterly offensive: No relevant evidence. No causal link. No medical indications. No testimony suggesting poison exposure. Nothing, the entire defense is predicated on 62,400 repetitions of arbitrary unrelated conjecture.
The question not being raised is IF Organophosphate is a viable culprit, how much would need to be present to be life threatening?
Let’s pretend for a moment, there was an abundance of commercially available rat and ant killer present…
… and ask some real experts:
Clinical biochemistry: Metabolic and Clinical Aspects, By William J. Marshall, Stephen K. Bangert reports in no uncertain terms: “Cutaneous absorption and inhalation through direct exposure these sprays rarely results in toxic levels.”
Simultaneously, The Clinical Toxicology Curriculum reports: “The organophosphate insecticides are an extremely toxic group of compounds, however, deaths from dermal or occupational exposure are very rare.” http://curriculum.toxicology.wikispaces.net/2.2.7.4.5+Organophosphates
Basically, fatal dermal exposure levels are so high as to have no viable measurement for fatal toxicity. The incidence of death is so low as to be statistically unreliable.
But it’s the same as the nerve gas Sarin, right? No, don’t be a jackass. Sarin, comparing Sarin to Malathion is the same as comparing sugar to cocaine. Sarin is a compound contain one molecule which is radically different from pesticide organophosphates, yet in the same family molecularly. Sarin is 500 times more toxic, and is a Schedule 1 CWC substance. There is no public access to it whatsoever, there is only 2,000 pounds of it in the whole country, it is extremely tightly regulated and controlled for government testing purposes only. There is no chance these people were exposed to anything remotely similar to Sarin. To allow the word Sarin to be used in this context is gross negligence on behalf of the prosecution and judge. There is no correlation or connection whatsoever, it is worse than negligent, is overtly misleading and deceptive.
IN FACT: Chlorpyrifos (the most common form of organophosphate used in pesticides) while extremely toxic to insects and amphibians is only toxic to humans in very high doses taken orally. In other exposures, it is merely carcinogenic causing long term health risks…
There is no such thing as: ‘Rapid Onset Pesticide Related Fatal Cancer” capable of killing a person in 2 hours…
But everything is fatal if you take enough of it, right? True, even water can be fatal in high enough doses. But commercially available organophosphates are so non-threatening to mammals that “Small animal clinical pharmacology and therapeutics”, By Dawn Merton Boothe reports that Dichlorvos (the second most popular organophosphate used in pesticides) is commonly given orally to mammals to kill intestinal parasites at levels as high as 80mg/kg…
These people could have eaten spoonfuls of the substance and killed the worms in their bellies,, not the participants.
But it could be organophosphate poisoning right, I mean, theoretically, it is possible, isn’t it? No, no it is not possible. If those people were sitting in a pit of commercially available Organophosphates, bare skin exposed to it, sweating for 2 hours, breathing it, absorbing it, it would produce levels an average industrial farmer gets everyday. It is simply not a viable cause of death, if it were, every kid who grew up in the country would all be dead. We all got levels way higher than these people could have POSSIBLY gotten in such a small period.
IN FACT: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did a study showing that 91% of all Americans get so much Chlorpyrifos in their diet, that 100% of the time, all over the country, we all have the molecule in our pee.
It is simply not nearly as toxic as the defense is portraying it. It is literally given orally to handle parasites in farm animals…
But it is possible right? No. There is no evidence to suggest these people were exposed to it at all, and even if they were, the levels necessary to prodcue death could not be reached in that setting.
No matter how many times you say it, it is still not possible. It is exactly the same thing as claiming someone overdosed on cocaine because they had sugar in their coffee.
2. The Lodge Safety: If the radius of the lodge is 23 feet, the square footage is 415 square feet. In Arizona, the permit threshold for a temporary structure is 200 square feet. Arizona Law mandated that this structured be inspected, approved, and carry a valid usage permit visible to the public before use… http://www.archive.org/stream/gov.az.fire/az_fire_djvu.txt (Chapter 24 Sections 2401-2404)
It is negligent of the state to say: “We don’t even know if this needed a permit.” It did, and the basic criteria for safety might have prevented this from ever happening. The Hamilton’s and James Ray both share the burden of providing safety. A basic inspection card is step one for anyone hosting an event.
They all screwed up, and none of them are taking responsibility.
WINNER!! ::   +16
[Reply]

LOLlerskater Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 11:25 am
@Injun Samurai, Damn! That may be the most ROBUST analysis I’ve ever read in a blog comment; you must be following this case closely and researching like a fiend–or be a chemist.
Thanks for these in-depth perspectives; You should be prosecuting JAR. No doubt, that comment will make me increasingly impatient and irritated when I hear the poison talk.
  +3
[Reply]

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
@LOLlerskater,
Thanks LOLler, I always told my mom that someday my advanced knowledge of the permit process for membrane structures in Arizona coupled with a deep personal insight into Organophosphate based pesticides would one day be appreciated in an obscure blog comment in the bowels of the interwebz.
:-)
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 6:49 pm
@Injun Samurai,
I think that you did your mom proud! : )
  +2
[Reply]

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Okay, Mr. Injun smarty pants. The defense has PROVED that Pressure Treated wood (CCA) includes arsenic, and we all know arsenic is poisonous… That proves James Ray is innocent jackass.
Don’t be an idiot please. CCA, Chromated Copper Arsenate is in fact horribly toxic to fungus. Mushrooms hate it. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN a death attributed to CCA exposure at any level, industrial or otherwise. Liquid, gaseous, or burnt, no deaths have ever been attributed to CCA.
But it could kill you if you burnt it and inhaled the smoke, arsenic is fucking deadly!
No, actaully, once again, that’s nonsense.
In fact: The 2007 Biologically based modeling of multimedia, multipathway, multiroute population exposures to arsenic. Written and peer reviewed by Georgopoulos, P.G., S-W Wang, Y-C Yang, J Xue, VG Zartarian, T. McCurdy, and H. Ozkaynak. states in no uncertain terms:
“Arsenic exposure from contact with CCA-treated wood is far below and indistinguishable from the background levels derived from diet and drinking water in US populations.”
The truth is, Arsenic is a natural occurring element, found in all diets all over the world. It’s in the soil, our bodies, the water we drink, even the air we breath. Arsenic is the 12th most common element in the human body, it is even FDA approved for use in numerous medical agents of all kinds. It’s even approved for use as a dietary supplement.
THAT makes no sense! Arsenic is poison mother fucker! The wood killed those people.
No. No it did not. James Ray cooked them to death. There are actually numerous compounds including arsenic, the most lethal are As203 (diarsenic trioxide) and Sodium Arsenate (rat poison), that’s where Arsenic gets it’s bad reputation. But those are radically different then the organic sourced arsenic found in CCA. The truth is, Chromated Copper Arsenate (CCA-C / pressure treated wood) has been used since the 1930′s, and has been burnt in homes all over the planet for the last 80 years. To date, there has never been an acute fatal level poisoning ever occurring from burning pressure treated wood…
The FDA advises against it because it’s believed to be carcinogenic, which means long term exposure has been linked to cancer. However, there is no concrete evidence to even support that.
The simple truth is, pressure treated wood is just not very dangerous, even when burnt. Nor is organic arsenic.
That’s bullshit. You’re an idiot, arsenic is deadly, you burn it, it’s even more deadly.
You may be thinking of asbestos, that’s a common mistake the defense would like you to make. The truth is, without arsenic in your blood 100% of the time, you die. It is an element necessary for human life. Arsenic related poisons are complex compounds which include arsenic within them.
Comparing the Arsenic found in CCA to it’s derivative poisons such as As203 is like comparing mustard seeds to mustard gas…
Mustard gas is a horribly poisonous and deadly compound derived from mustard seeds, but the mustard on your sandwich is not toxic at all. The two compounds have the same source, are closely related, but they are so completely different as to make comparisons between the two absurd.
You would not say: “One of the participants had mustard on their sandwich, therefore they died from mustard gas poisoning.”
That’s absurd, but that is exactly what the defense is doing, and the prosecution is blinding adding credence to the straw man.
There is no As2O3 in CCA, and the idea that a few ashes from pressure treated wood could have even theoretically produced enough airborne inorganic arsenic to be of any consequence whatsoever is utterly preposterous… It is simply not possible under any circumstances.
After 80 years of the substance being used worldwide, it has never occurred, even at levels 1,000′s of times higher then what could have been achieved in this setting…
It is a ludicrous argument that the defense needs to attack head on…
Polk needs to stop arguing that there was no pressure treated wood, it’s stupid and it creates room for doubt. She needs to hit it dead on and prove that it doesn’t matter even if there was…
http://www.woodpreservativescience.org/science-references.shtml
WINNER!! ::   +11
[Reply]

White Rabbit Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
@Injun Samurai,
I have handled pressure treated wood for years …handled…with bare hands…and never gotten sick. A few years ago they changed it to where there was no more arsenic, didn’t they?
  +5
[Reply]

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@White Rabbit,
A common misconception. CCA is still widely used and readily available all over the world…
From the Wood Preservation Science Council FAQ Sheet:
Wasn’t CCA banned?
No. EPA never banned or threatened to ban CCA. After January 1, 2004, following label amendment, CCA was permitted and continues to be sold to treat wood for many industrial, commercial and agricultural uses.
The new law simply required a new way to label CCA wood as opposed to other pressure treatments. It’s still widely available, it just has a new label requirement…
The EPA has this to say about CCA woods:
“there are no unacceptable risks to the public for existing CCA-treated wood being used around homes . EPA does not believe there is any reason to remove or replace CCA-treated structures, including decks or playground equipment. EPA is not recommending that existing structures or surrounding soils be removed or replaced.”
They do however recommend, just to be safe: Don’t make carved water facets or coffee mugs out of it. And wear goggles when cutting it on a table saw. They also recommend washing your work clothes separate from you pajamas.
The truth is, they have 80 years of empirical evidence to its safety, reliability, and non-toxicity, it is one of the most reliable, long proven, and well tested industrial compounds in the world today.
  +5
[Reply]

Anne Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
@Injun Samurai,
On the one hand, I agree there is a danger the prosecution may add credence to the straw man with their current line of questioning. On the other hand . . . because evidence about prior sweat lodges is inadmissable for the purpose of showing Ray’s previous conduct, it is good if Diskin is permitted to testify that information he received about Ray’s prior sweat lodges was one reason he focused the investigation as he did.
Hopefully later, an expert will explain that these various toxins couldn’t kill you anyway.
  +3
[Reply]

jamo Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 3:02 am
@Injun Samurai, I did some similar research and found the same thing. This is VERY valuable info for the jury to hear. Can Salty or someone tell me why the prosecution can’t get this info into the proceedings??? These defense theories are outlandish and can be disproved so easily by the obvious facts. It would be a shame if a slaughterer got off because the prosecution doesn’t get simple facts into a trial. This is 2011 and it is so easy to find these facts and expert witnesses. These theories were sprung on the prosecution and they should have a right to bring in new witnesses to dispute the retarded lies.
Injun Samurai, maybe you should call Detective Diskin with the info, as e-mailing doesn’t work as both me and Dr David Clark found out.
  +2
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
@jamo,
This is exactly why I would never be on a jury. They’re the only ones that don’t get to hear all of the facts and yet they’re the ones making the decission.
  +2
[Reply]

White Rabbit Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
@Injun Samurai,
All the talk about ant and rat poison makes me want to do is to nod off and slam my head against the top of my computer desk.
I am hoping that the age group of the jury would recognize some of these ludicrous arguments for what they are. When I was a kid my mother would send me out in the yard with the Black Flag pump thingy to blow DDT all over the Japanese beetles on her roses. The only thing that happened to me was that I laid thin shelled eggs for a while but I finally got over that.
You are right that any farm worker would be dead from their daily exposure long before anyone in the sweat lodge would have even gotten ill…HAD the Hamiltons liberally used toxic chemicals on their property, which they did not. They were extremely limited and controlled in their use. Even Fawn Foster said she handled the rat poison with her bare hands. They wouldn’t sell these things in stores if they were that toxic.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

White Rabbit Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@White Rabbit,
Oh, and my father-in-law was on coumadin for years.
That is rat poison. If you can take it orally, there is no way any participant had enough exposure to anything which would cause illness or death.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

jamo Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 3:06 am
@White Rabbit, Also, the autopsies showed no evidence of internal bleeding that would be present with rat poison.
  +3
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
@jamo,
Does the autopsy even matter in this case? Sure looks like it doesn’t.
  +1
[Reply]

_cartman_ Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
@Aly,
The defense is trying to throw out whatever “theory” it can to “weaken” the State’s case, but realize that “theories” without any real corroborating evidence won’t hold much weight with the jury. Redirect has brought that point home time and again.
So don’t worry to much about the defense opining about nails in wood, pesticides, herbicides, toxins, etc, etc, etc. It really shouldn’t hold much weight with the jury.
Personally, I think the defense is doing a tremendous job at “creating” inferences that are detrimental to their own client.
Until Li finds that smoking nail…I don’t think there is much to be worried about, except for a mistrial ruling from the judge
[[note: there does appear to be an overall heightened level of "frustration" by the judge, and I can't nail [[no pun intended]] it down to which side it can be attributed to]].
  +5

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
@White Rabbit,
I can relate, when I was kid, we used to cool off by soaking in the furrows out in the fields until my grandpa caught us and said not to do it.
We were literally covered in those same pesticides and wore clothes soaked in them countless times… All the kids I knew did it, cause it was fucking hot…
We’d suck start siphon hoses and get that shit in our mouth from the water in the furrows regularly…
I’m not saying we put it on our cheerios (it tastes nasty), but if it was deadly enough that sitting on a few granules could kill you, everyone I know would be dead.
Even if that ant stuff was all over that lodge, they would have got less then we got everyday…
Although when the crop dusters would dump thousands of pounds of it all around our house all at once, sometimes your eyes would get a little red and your nose would get stuffy… But that only happened a few times a year…
I’m glad to hear your thin shell problem cleared up by Easter… That could have been messy…
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

White Rabbit Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Well, Injun, thin shelled eggs are easier to peel so that may have been a benefit.
I won’t say these things don’t have any repercussions, just not that fast and at the miniscule exposure, if any, that anyone would possibly have there. Which they didn’t.
After all, I do have a cousin who is a jackalope. Don’t know if long term exposure to rat poison, ant killer or Black Flag did that.
  +2
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 28th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
@Injun Samurai,
James Ray wanted his way every time and that’s what he got.
There was never a question about a permit before, why is it different now? I do believe if the Hamilton’s knew they would need a permit, they would have gotten one. In most places things are noticed by athorites just checking land, someone checking for other permits. I believe if it needed one, they would have asked and if they didn’t have one, they wouldn’t have been allowed to put the sweatlodge up.
That’s always been my experiments with permits.
  +2
[Reply]

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 11:03 am
@Aly,
As always, I appreciate what you have to say.
Building inspectors are not Fire Marshalls. It’s two totally different departments with two totally different jobs. To expect an overworked underpaid building inspector to inspect a 1000 acre retreat center pro bono for fire code violations on temporary structures is not realistic. It’s not their job, and it’s not what they’re trained to look for.
Property owners of all kinds routinely shortcut the law, especially around temporary structures. That’s standard business practice. Here today, gone tomorrow, why waste time with a permit? Whether they knew about the permit requirements or not, it’s moot. The law is clear, they needed an inspection and a permit, and ignorance of the law is no defense. http://www.archive.org/stream/gov.az.fire/az_fire_djvu.txt (Chapter 24 Sections 2401-2404)
James Ray was negligent in his diligence and hosted an event without looking for the inspection card, they enabled him, and he vouched for them without doing the diligence required by law of his role as event host. Their negligence is a misdemeanor, a $250 dollar fine, his was criminal and carries much higher penalties.
The Hamiltons seem like nice people, but they also appear to have slushed an enormous amount of corporate debt into their personal accounts so they could declare private bankruptcy while preserving their business. They are obviously negligent in their accounting and business practices, and to expect them to be concerned with a $50 dollar obscure permit law for a sweat lodge is not realistic.
You’re right, they most likely didn’t know they needed a permit, nor did they care enough to find out that they did, nor did they take the state sanctioned steps to insure the safety of their guests.
We all want James Ray to be found guilty, but his guilt does not absolve them of theirs, nice people or not, they enabled a murderer.
  +1
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Where we used to live, we had a water well. If you wated to build a pump house around it, you had to have a permit. We had some neighbors that had to replace their garage and while building it, the “permit police” stopped to see if they had gotten a permit. I don’t believe that they had, so they had to stop until they got one.
They are saying that Mr. Ray in order to be found guilty, he and he alone would have had to know people were going to die. So if the Hamilton’s are anyway responsible, Mr. Ray gets off and he was the one knowing people were ill and even knew some were not breathing. Looks like right now, the way that it’s going, the judge seems pissed and probably will call a mistrial and asshole well be back preaching next weekend.
As far the a sweat lodge needing a permit, looks like the “permit police” would have been told some time between 2005 and 2009 no permit, no sweatlodge.
  0
[Reply]
# 28 April 2011 at 10:07 am

Injun Samurai said:
Why oh why isn’t this happening?
Mrs. Polk: Your honor the state calls Scientist Mr. Pesticide Expert…
Mr. Pesticide Expert: { takes the stand }
Mrs. Polk: Mr. Pesticide expert, although there is no evidence of any kind to suggest pesticide exposure at even the smallest levels, we want to rule it out completely, can you tell us how much commercially available ant and rat poison it would have taken to kill these people?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: I see, the important thing to remember is that these chemicals are very toxic to insects and small mammals, but they are approved for public use because they are very safe for human beings. The toxic levels of commercially available organophosphates are about 80mg/kg when taken orally. That’s just about 5000 mg orally to kill an average human being.
Mrs. Polk: How much is that, can you give me a mental picture?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: Of course, that’s about 4 or 5 tablespoonfuls, taken orally. But that’s orally, these molecules as they are prepared for the public sector are fairly well filtered by the skin. So transdermally, it would be about five times that amount in it’s purest form.
Mrs. Polk: So about 20 tablespoons of this ant poison (she shows the same container of ant poison) placed all over a persons skin to kill them?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: No, no, absolutely not. Commercially available organophosphate granules are only 10% organophosphates by volume. The rest is sweeteners, fillers, and preservatives to entice the little critters and keep the molecule stable. To reach the necessary exposure levels using a commercial product like that, you’d need ten times the volume of the granules to hold enough organophosphates to be life-threatening. So placed against the skin, you’d need about 8 ounces of those granules.
Mrs. Polk: I see that this container includes just 4 ounces, so you’re saying I could rub this entire container all over my body, and it would be a of no threat to my health?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: That is correct. The FDA and EPA approve those substances for playgrounds, homes, even picnic areas. In fact, because the granule form is mostly filler, you actual absorb more organophosphates from insect repellents you spray on your skin then that whole container. The truth is, these chemicals are so safe for humans, that 91% of Americans have them in their blood all the time, we get them in nearly all the food we eat. They are even included in some medicines, and used orally in livestock to prevent parasites. You simply need a massive amount of them to be lethal.
Mrs. Polk: But what about airborne? If they were heated and turned to steam?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: That’s a good question, and the toxic levels would decrease dramatically. But the reduction through catalyzation would keep the exposures levels about the same. To kill three people and make 20 others sick in that setting, you’d need to vaporize roughly 15 pounds of the granules, or 60 of those small containers. But even then, it’s not possible. The granules are stabilized to not dissolve in water or rain. In that setting, they could not be vaporized in even small volumes, let alone 15 pounds of them.
Mrs. Polk: What if the granules were placed directly onto the heated rocks, could that vaporize them?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: No not really, the only way to vaporize them is to reduce the pure form to a liquid, then atomize the liquid. It would take a special chemical redcution process of titration and distilliation to extract the organophosphate from the granules, and using a viable solvent and stable medium, before it could be vaporized using heated stones. So it is possible, but you’d need 60 to 100 containers that size, an entire laboratory conducting the distillations, and the smell would be atrocious. No one would willingly expose themselves to it. But mind you, 80mg/kg is the safe thresehold, in clinical trials it we’ve found safe levels at up to 4 times that. 80mg/kg, the levels we’re talking about are not actually threatening for most people. You have when a rat eats them, it would be the equivalent to a human eating an two box of cereal containing nothing but these granules. That’s orally, transdermally the levels needed for fatality are much much higher. It’s just not theoretically possible in this setting to have reached the levels necessary. You’d have organophosphate residue on everything everywhere, we’re not talking about hard to find trace levels, we are talking about levels so high as to leave a foul smelling thick yellowish coating on everything and everyone…
Mrs. Polk: So you’re saying, we aren’t talking about a tiny little exposure we’re talking about a massive, unmistakable quantity?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: Exactly. Exposure equivalent to bathing in a vat of it for three hours. But that would be in it’s purest form. In the granule form, it could be thick on the ground, everywhere, and still not be adequate to produce toxic levels. The tarps could have been coated with it, and it still couldn’t have produced toxic levels…
{ – Cross Examination from Mr.Kelly – }
Mr. Kelly: So you’ve just testified that organophosphates could haved killed these people, correct?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: No. It is not possible in this setting, even if the granules were everywhere for the adequate toxicity levels to have been reached. Intenstinal bloating, internal bleeding, and blackening of the tongue would have been seen in all the victims if those levels had been reached.
Mr. Kelly: Aha, so you agree that Organophosphates could have killed these people if the exposure levels were high enough, correct?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: Well, yes, I mean, pesticide exposure can kill people, but it’s impossible to reach the levels high enough in that setting with just those cakes and granules. It just not even theoretically possible…
Mr. Li: You’re honor, that’s speculation. I move that that be stricken from the record. This witness wasn’t there, he doesn’t know if these people bathed in pesticides before the ceremony. He has testified that bathing in pure organophosphates for three hours would have killed these people. He doesn’t know their hygiene habits…
Mr. Kelly: Do you know if these people bathed in pesticides before the ceremony?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: No, no I don’t know how they bathed.
Mr. Kelly: So you’re saying that it is possible these people were killed by organophosphates, correct?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: No, it’s not possible!
Mr. Kelly: Your honer this witness is negating his own testimony… He just testified that bathing in pure organophosphates for three hours killed these people.
Mr. Li: I can’t believe this, your honor you’re turning the constitution on it’s head!
Mr. Kelly: Mr. Pesticide Expert, if one of the participants had released Sarin gas inside that lodge, that would have produced symptoms similar to heat stroke too, correct?
Mr. Pesticide Expert: You sir, are a fucking ignorant asshole who cares nothing for the truth…
{ – witness dismissed : recess – }
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

Rubies Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
@Injun Samurai,
I love’d this.
You are amazing.
I wish what you wrote would go from this page to the juror’s collective understanding. Being a part time optimist I’m hoping we have a retired chemist on the jury who would happen to have personal knowledge of these compounds. OR that someway Polk can get this into the evidence.
  +5
[Reply]

SD Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
@Injun Samurai ::
good stuff!
We will hear all this too.
Somehow I don’t think the State will forget to mention that not only is the defense theory highly unlikely and not supported by the circumstantial evidence … it’s also basically scientifically impossible.
The crime lab is yet to testify … and an unnamed toxicologist/poison type specialist is at the bottom of the witness list.
Misstating things to the jury might feel good while you’re doing it … but it has a way of coming around. They better get that mistrial they’re hopin for.
[Reply]

Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Hahaaa Injun, that is way too much fact. Remember the jury doesn’t really want that. They would rather them spend hours sitting, sitting and sitting listening to total bullshit!
Li just killed me when he said and your honor, the jurors just looked at us like we did something wrong, PLEASE make them stop that. lol
The defense team wouldn’t do that now would they?? : )
  +4
[Reply]

what?? Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 7:00 pm
@Injun Samurai,
You do an awesome Luis Li impression!
  +2
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 11:17 am
@Injun Samurai,
Brilliant, funny and highly educational like all your comments here so far….
I can just hear Li’s voice in that. (Minor correction: Kelly doesn’t say “Your Honor”, he always calls him “Jerdj”.)
  +4
[Reply]

Injun Samurai Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
@Yakaru,
Thanks Yakaru! I just went to your website, truly epic video on the homepage, thanks for sharing that…
I think perhaps Veena Malik would be a great addition to the Prosecution in the JR case… Let Kelly and Li try their shit on her!
  +2
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
@Injun Samurai,
That’s pretty much what I thought too when I saw that clip. A few of the looks that Veena Malik gave that insane Mullah reminded me exactly of some of the daggers Melinda Martin was shooting at Tom Kelly. Malik, of course was risking her life to say what she said, but Melinda Martin was also risking plenty to speak out. She could easily have just crawled under a rock and said nothing.
Anyway, I’m really happy someone else was as impressed with Veena Malik’s performance as I was.
Incidentally, I’ve got several of your comments here bookmarked to be used soon – especially this one
http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray-trial-updates/#comment-57490
- comparing JAR’s techniques to the CIA torture manual.
**Hey Salty (or anyone), how can I get a URL for a comment once it’s disappeared from the “recent comments” section?**
  +2
[Reply]
# 29 April 2011 at 10:34 am

Aly said:
Did you hear Mike Brooks and Sunni shocked that the detictive was in there while the lawyers were arguing about his testimony, said they had never seen that before?
Where have they been? They missed the Simpson trial?? The detectives were in there most of the time, when another detective was testifying also when arguing about Ferman, he was also in courtroom. One detective was through testifying and one of the main ones on the case called him a traitor as he was leaving the courtroom with the jury present.
The glove expert was sitting playing with the glove while the lawyers were arguing about his testimony. Did they miss all of that?
We’ve discussed this before how the judge seems biased to the defense.
Maybe he’s getting ready to call a mistrial, SO that In Session won’t be distured during the next two high profiled cases. They show more of them before even starting than they do the James Ray trial.
Maybe Darrow and Kelly were also involved in a case where Polk was the prosecutor.
Kelly says he’s NOW between a rock and a hard place. What choice of words to use during this trial.
  -1
[Reply]
# 29 April 2011 at 3:03 pm
James Ray Trial Updates « Spirituality is No Excuse said:
[...] those people to death. It coulda been ant poison. Rat poison. Organo-phosphates. Treated wood. As commenter “Injun Samurai” astutely and at great length pointed out on Salty Droid’s [...]
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# 2 May 2011 at 4:15 pm

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