James Ray Trial Trials :: April 28th
– Legal arguments going lamely. Evidence being kept out because of 403 :: Ms. Polk argues court is applying the wrong standard. #JamesRay #
– There is a bias in the law toward letting the evidence in :: but Judge still doesn’t wanna do it. #JamesRay #
– #JamesRay was perp walked like some kind of murderer. How sad. So his wallet must not come in says Mr. Kelly. #
– #JamesRay went back to his room for a sandwich and a shower :: where the police found him. Then his room was blocked off for evidence. #
– Mr. Kelly requests that Melinda Martin’s personal information be used to block out #JamesRay‘s personal information. Fair is fair. #
– Ms. Polk wants to call a doctor participant from 2008 {Dr. Kent} to established foundation for life threatening heat illness in prior years. #
– Dr. Kent left the lodge early :: believes he saved people lives outside the lodge … looked inside the lodge and saw two bodies. #JamesRay #
– Dr. Kent was interviewed by Det. Diskin on March 14th :: the audio was turned over to the defense immediately. #JamesRay #
– Dr Kent called State after watching media coverage. Dr Kent tried to email before trial {fail} :: and then called once it started. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin did 70 interviews. Dr. Kent was listed as “David Kent” and wasn’t interviewed. As soon as he called he was disclosed. #JamesRay #
– It would be much harder to stay calm if Ms. Polk wasn’t so calm. Here comes the jury. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin takes the stand yesterday for Part 1 :: http://wp.me/pye0D-1YG :: now returns for Part 2. #JamesRay #
– Evidence is secured and there are numbers and procedures and blah blah blah … #JamesRay #
– The pit. Was it centered? A: I was crawling around in there for two hours … looked centered to me. #JamesRay #
– Q: Can you center something in a non perfect circle? A: No. #JamesRay maths! #
– Mr. Kelly is making foundation objections :: which has worked zero times so far against Ms. Polk. #JamesRay #fail #
– Mr. Kelly objects to foundation :: then objects to foundation on the foundation questions. Sidebar. #JamesRay #
– There was a meeting about what to do with the lodge as evidence. #JamesRay It had mostly been destroyed as evidence by events anywayz #
– Recreating events would have required human volunteers … and there were too many other variables. Basically impossible. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin was thinking #JamesRay maybe used a toxin or some kind of hallucinogen to produce the “altered state” he had promised. #
– Detectives decided that cross sectioning was the most efficient way to preserve conditions as well as possible. #JamesRay #
– No ants. No evidence of poison on the scene. #JamesRay #
– The scene was eventually released back to Angel Valley :: because the State can’t keep things forever {xcept u money and u stuff if u poor} #
– Det. Diskin gave the okay to burn the “kiva” wood. The fire department said burning the tarps was a bad idea. Pointless objection. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin wore protective coverings {“tie bag suit” maybe} while on the scene because he wasn’t sure what killed people. #JamesRay #
– Diskin says subsequent investigation revealed that the lodge only had problems when #JamesRay and his extremeness was on the scene. Sidebar. #
– Tyvek suit … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyvek … #JamesRay #
– A time for war :: A time for peace :: A time for logs. #JamesRay #
– The nail in the log that Special Investigator Luis Li found was a big headed nail used to nail down tarps and paper and stuff. #JamesRay #
– Oh noes! No nails in log number two. #JamesRay #
– Log three :: no nails :: pieces chipped off to send to the lab for testing. #JamesRay #
– Wood for the intentions fire wasn’t lumber :: was sticks and such :: none of it was seized or tested because seemed irrelevant #JamesRay #
– Willow branches from fake sweat lodge structure taken into evidence and samples sent to the lab. #JamesRay #
– Rocks were taken from inside the lodge :: and from inside the rock heating pit :: and sent to the lab for testing. #JamesRay #
– The cross sections of the lodge were taken from the magnetic directions :: lodge seems to be incorrectly aligned for proper magic. #JamesRay #
– More can opening … a Diskin specialty. He should use his gun … that would be faster and louder. #JamesRay #
– Short lunch recess {gots to allow the defense adequate time for stalling} :: back at 1:00 ArizonaTime. #JamesRay #
– The fourth log :: the suspense is almost too much … #JamesRay #
– How can we be sure these logs aren’t haunted? Tarp nail in 4th log :: Mr. Li was 2/4ths right about his conspiracy of nails. #JamesRay #
– The tobacco pouches are tiny :: about the size of a large marble … maybe enough for one sloppily rolled smoke. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin calls the victims victims instead of “folks” :: how odd. #JamesRay #
– Q: When you were collecting soil samples from inside the lodge did you know about the pee? A: No. #JamesRay #
– Detectives went back later in Oct to get a control sample from outside the sweat lodge area. #JamesRay #
– Liquids at the hydration station were sampled :: the fruit was sampled. They were never tested because there was no correlation #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin used the original photos on his laptop to find flies and ants on the fruit. He remembers the flies from the scene. #JamesRay #
– The first aid kit was behind the fruit station in a box on the ground. It comes complete with a journal {looks like} #JamesRay #
– The first aid kit seemed unused and contained a radio and an alarm clock. #JamesRay #safety #
– The State crime lab doesn’t always test everything that the county asks to be tested. #JamesRay #
– The State crime lab prioritizes evidence for testing based on the likelihood that it will yield valuable results & seriousness of the crime. #
– Testing for “volatiles” :: chemical signatures left by various substances that have been heated. #JamesRay #
– Mr. Kelly makes an omnibus objection :: and offers more compelled stipulations to facts that will sound yucky coming from Diskin. #JamesRay #
– The crime lab decided what temperatures to test substances at :: in consultation with Diskin. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin told the crime lab about #JamesRay‘s “it’ll be way hot” warnings :: and about the deaths :: vomiting :: and altered states. #
– 2 rocks tested :: 2 logs tested :: 2 lodge cross sections tested. Not by the defense of course :: they only pretend to be curious. #JamesRay #
– Crime lab was reluctant to test the tarps because plastics are full of wild volatiles that muck up the tests. #JamesRay #
– The crime lab declined to test the soil samples and sent them back to evidence. #JamesRay #
– Mr. Kelly can haz sidebar? #JamesRay #
– Questions about the o-phosphates hearsay clip from yesterday. #JamesRay #
– The person speaking in the clip is unknown :: but Diskin was thinking carbon monoxide or toxins himself so it doesn’t surprise. #JamesRay #
– Ms. Polk asks several question to illustrate that no one said anything about o-phosphates after the first few hours on scene. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin was inundated with volunteered information during the 4 month investigation :: no talk of rat biscuits or ants. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin didn’t give medical examiners any information about o-phosphates because there wasn’t any. #JamesRay #
– Det Diskin did an all day no lunch interview with the defense team about the evidence before the trial :: they didn’t ask about poisonings. #
– Two lieutenants and Det Polling also interviewed by defense. Diskin was present :: they were also not asked about o-phosphates. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin present at medical examiner interviews by defense team :: o-phosphates never mentioned. Objection. Recess. #JamesRay #
– Defense objects to the State’s line of questions which “shift the burden of proof”. #JamesRay #
– The State requests an evidentiary hearing {no jury} to call Haddow. #JamesRay #
– Ms. Polk :: it’s not burden shifting. Defense has focused on Diskin not testing for o-phosphates :: hearsay audio was admitted. #JamesRay #
– Ms. Polk has two cases on point about burden shifting. Mr. Kelly has never heard of citing cases so he’s prolly confused. #JamesRay #
– Ms. Polk reads from a case that’s factually similar to this situation :: she argues her questions are even less burden shifting #JamesRay #
– That was a great argument by Ms. Polk :: Mr. Li begins his sloppy response. #JamesRay #
– Mr. Li says “when I was a prosecutor” for like the fifth time. I guess that’s the statute of “personal experience” … #JamesRay #
– Ms. Polk doesn’t object to an instruction about burden of proof :: she just wants it at the end where it always is. #JamesRay #
– Judge doesn’t want anymore questions that indicate or imply the defense should have told Diskin about their lame theories. #JamesRay #
– Judge also doesn’t love the defense’s idea to give a midtrial instruction. So basically nothing happened .. as usual. Recess. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin heard of o-phosphates for the first time in his life during Mr. Hughes’ interview with defense expert Dr. Paul #JamesRay #
– After hearing about o-phosphates for the 1st time Det. Diskin had blood samples tested :: tests were negative but unreliable based on time. #
– No evidence of o-phosphates was ever found on the scene. #JamesRay #
– Cops attended all the autopsies. #JamesRay #
– Wallet photo admitted. Ms. Polk makes clear the wallet wasn’t left behind :: it was seized. #JamesRay #
– #JamesRay‘s briefcase and documents also seized. Ms. Polk requests sidebar. #JamesRay #
– Search warrant for JRI executed Oct 14th. Det. Diskin did it himself in cooperation with locals. #JamesRay #
– Pics of the JRI offices admitted into evidence. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin did 75 interviews. Other detectives also did many interviews. #JamesRay #
– Hamiltons made themselves available to Diskin on Oct 9th :: but he was too busy and they weren’t witnesses to the scene. #JamesRay #
– Det. Diskin did a PowerPoint presentation of the evidence for Ms. Polk and her staff and the medical examiners. #JamesRay #
– The medical examiners routinely rely on the investigators for input regrading the various extrinsic evidences. #JamesRay #
– The PowerPoint was meant to summarize the facts from various points of view. #JamesRay #
– All three victim “folks” died from heat stroke. #JamesRay #
– Jury dismissed. Recording the legals. Me out. #JamesRay #
>> bleep bloop

















It doesn’t look like CNN live is showing the very important oral argument scheduled for 8:30 this morning. CNN does have 3 screens devoted to the royal wedding however. Very disappointing.
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Kelly to Diskin: “This jury is going to make a determination based on the facts they hear on the witness stand”.
Thank GOD. Hopefully they will, and not on the twisted, distorted and manipulated “facts” that the defense team daily brings to this case. Every time one of the DT gets up and does a cross examination I feel like I’ve been slimed and need to take a shower afterwards to get that nasty goo off of me.
I know that our legal system isn’t perfect, but this is a joke. I wonder how this is all really sitting with James after making one of the big themes of SW about moral integrity. His karma came back around and bit him big time in the ass and now, through his defense, he is sinking lower and lower into the quagmire. I am hoping that this experience finally cracks that hard exterior of his and he eventually wakes up.
Wake up, Neo.
WINNER!! ::
+15
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Great family photo,SD. That must be the scrawny Jimmy his childhood friends describe, before he started his lifelong devotion to steroid injection.
No matter what the defense tries to distract with,this trial is about one thing: What would a reasonable person have done, once he became aware that people were having difficulties during an activity he not only created and promoted,but was directing,and in which he was participating just feet away from the people in distress?
Why did Ray choose not to stop the activity? It had no rules for duration,therefore, it could be ended at any time. But what did Ray do? He chose to keep going.
The structure was not traveling at a high rate of speed. Nor was it flying at a high altitude. It did not require an emergency stop or landing. But what did Ray do? He chose to keep going.
It was not a building in which people were trapped by walls and doors. It would have been very easy to have told participants to lift up the sides and get out, and to remove the tarps so light and oxygen would fill the space, allowing access to the ones in danger. But is that what Ray did? No. He chose to keep going.
James Arthur Ray was a mean,spiteful bully kid who grew up to be a mean,spiteful bully professional con artist. Sociopaths are incapable of resisting their urge to control and hurt others. They lack the moral fiber to put the brakes on their behavior. We can only hope the outcome of the trial will successfully stop this subspecies of human and hold him accountable for ending the lives* of Kirby Brown,James Shore and Liz Neuman.
*remember Colleen Conaway
WINNER!! ::
+17
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Yakaru Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 3:10 am
@Jean D,
Well said.
I’ve said this before but I think it’s worth repeating: even the defense agrees that a reasonable person would have stopped the ceremony as soon as they heard pleas for help.
http://www.katu.com/news/83544282.html
“Had he heard any pleas for help inside the pitch-black sweat lodge, he would have stopped the ceremony immediately, Ray’s attorneys said.” (Feb 2010)
The white paper also argues that there were “no problems” in previous years, so Ray had no warning.
http://saltydroid.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/WhiteWash-Paper.pdf
I can’t help but wonder if Ray lied to his own attorneys and assumed that none of his students/followers would talk.
Whatever the case, Death Ray is guilty according to the standards set by his own defense lawyers.
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katiecoolady Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 9:58 am
@Jean D,
I really appreciate this post Jean D.
This whole thing , I think, will hinge on AWARENESS more than stupid distractions like rat/ant poison.
These 3 people did not “pass away”. They WERE KILLED in this structure due to his reckless nature, which had been escalating for a period of years. One death did not deter him, so he kept pushing and pushing. He was playing with people’s lives like they were on a chess board, him against “the Powers that Be” and to see how far he could push LIFE right to the edge of DEATH.
His behavior after the sweat *whatever* was pure validation of his cavalier, detached attitude of “so what, a few casualties, I still WIN this round cuz I am GOD over YOU, God”.
I really do think the State needs to hammer this awareness theme over and over–what did he know and when did he know it (this is why past acts are so impt to get in there). To me it will be a decision based on negligence or recklessness but he will be convicted of one of those.
And I do think this meets the reckless criteria. Definitely.
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Jean D Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 10:27 am
@katiecoolady, Yes, we can get bogged down by the distractions of the defense or remember that people were in distress inside that faux sweat lodge yet Ray failed to respond in a manner appropriate to the situation.
@yakaru Has the defense filed the claim with the court that Ray did not know there were problems? If so, it has no weight already considering multiple people have stated to the court they heard Ray respond to cries for help and to participants telling him people passed out.
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Yakaru Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 1:05 pm
@Jean D,
No, the defense hasn’t said anything like that for ages — only in the white papers and to the media last year. It’s always worth reminding his supporters that initially, the defense claimed to have evidence that would vindicate him. Eventually they have been left with no choice but to try to have exactly that kind of evidence excluded.
Instead of saying he couldn’t have known because previous lodges were ok, and trotting out witnesses like Megan Fredrickson and Caren Wendt, they are instead trying avoid the issue altogether, replacing it with the pesticides argument.
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Once again the CNN feed disappears when the defense is doing a cross examination. There have been empty feeds, weather screen feeds, and the totally useless Buckingham Palace at night with no audio or action feed. Are they being paid off by the defense?
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Did anyone notice Kelly’s hostile attitude as he actually pointed his finger right at Diskin?! Later he complained that the jury was giving him dirty looks the other day. Well, no wonder!
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Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@Kalista7,
They were giving him dirty looks??? Oh, that was Li too. He said the jury was looking at him and Do like they had done something wrong. lol Can he look at a jury and tell what they’re thinking? Like Kelly said to Debbie Mercer the other day, can you look at me and tell I’m not happy? Damn, they SURE waste a lot of time. I guess when the judge comes back, he’ll instruct the jury not to be giving Li, Do, and Kelly dirty looks. Haaa!
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Kalista7 Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@Aly, The comment he said about the jury looking at him and Do like they had done something wrong was what I was referring to; sorry, didn’t mean to put words in his mouth!
Yeah, that was stupid – looking at a picture of someone smiling and assuming they’re okay just doesn’t make sense. What if she was smiling but didn’t know her name, like some of the participants? I couldn’t believe they let him go on & on about those pics. The good news is that he’s not on the Prosecution side, lol…..
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Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 10:40 pm
@Kalista7,
Kalista,
I meant that sarcasticly about Li. I couldn’t believe the whining about the jury. : ) I can’t believe them being so
whiny and crying about everything and the judge not stopping it.
About the pictures, it was comical what asshole said those two look happy, don’t they? AND Debbie said welll, this one didn’t look too happy. Hahaa I thought I would die. lol You could tell it bit him.
“DO I LOOK HAPPY??” hahaaa! The defense gets so frazzled. They do a lot of hissing. I thought the picture telethon was way over board and they pick the ones they wanted.
But, also in the background you could see peole not doing so well. I hope that the jury saw them.
The lady doing the body build pose didn’t even look like she had been in the sweatlodge. It was probably a picture taken before
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Kalista7 Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 11:30 pm
@Aly, LOL!! Yeah, that defense knows (I think) they’re in a losing battle and that’s why they freak out when the TRUTH comes out. I’m sure the jury is picking up on this stuff. I’m glad they had hints of previous lodges too!
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Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
@Kalista7,
I wonder since they did have hints of the previous lodges, if they’re wondering why all of a sudden that stopped.Wasn’t the defense proud to show all of the happy faces? lol
jamo Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 4:03 am
@Kalista7, The defense knows the TRUTH, that this jerk murdered them. They can see the crystal clear evidence.
Anita Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 8:14 am
@Kalista7, the jury was giving him looks b/c he is sooo annoying as the whole defense team is. Im not impressed with JAR’s team of lawyers at all. Their questioning is like nails on a chalk board so I stopped watching so I wouldnt vomit anymore.
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Is the defense team so completely unaware of public perception of them, they fail to see the jury has a similar opinion.
Continual attacks on witnesses, whimpering complaints to the judge, pointing fingers at the prosecution, avoiding the camera and attempting to laugh out of sight, are enough for all to notice they have little to no credibility.
WINNER!! ::
+10
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flightseeker Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
@Bethann, i don’t know if THEY are aware, but apparently, IS is not, since sunny routinely swoons over the DT, but I agree absolutely that the jury probably saw through the DT act weeks ago, and that every day brings more evidence to the jury that the DT is not to be trusted. this cannot be good for JR.
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Aly Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 5:27 pm
@flightseeker,
Looks like IS and the talking heads must both be getting paid. Right in the middle of the trial Polk questioning the detective, they cut in for hours of Anthony interviews or just anything to stay away from the Ray trial.
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katiecoolady Reply:
April 29th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
@Aly,
Yeah the twelve millionth airing of the “In Session exclusive interview with Jose Baez”. Who cares??? Just stupid…why have cameras there and a field reporter there? Ugh!
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Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
@katiecoolady,
I know! It isn’t like it’s several different interviews, it’s ONE interview like you said “twelve millionth” times.Damn, I was so pissed. Why can’t they show that ONE time during a James Ray break? There’s been plenty of them. But, oh no, right in the middle of the trial. Then Vinnie really did it when he said WE’RE GOING TO SHOW SOME REAL IMPORTANT STUFF YOU MAY HAVE MISSED? OH REally?? Then “great” he proceeds to show maybe 30 minutes all together of the Ray trial, PLUS I had seen that. Also, they spend most of their time ADVERTISING the up coming trials when they could be showing us the RAy trial. I don’t care even if it’s a discussion between the lawyers and the judge.
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Chenal Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
@Bethann, Maybe its the best they’ve got. If it is JR should be pooing his panties by now.
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So disappointed for April 29th coverage. Way to blow it CNN semi-live.
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Watching the devastation across the South I was wondering, wasn’t the subpoena for Josh issued in Alabama? Is that where he and Megan are living now?
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Mario Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@White Rabbit,
Wow that deal down in Tuscaloosa is Unbelievable!
Speaking of Josh Fredrickson, I just came across this. Many of the folks around here have probably seen it already. I was surprised Luis Li allowed him to say as much as he did. He certainly won’t allow him to say as much when he takes the stand.
http://tommcfeeley.com/content/Josh-Fredrickson-Police-Interview-Nov-11-20092.pdf
Whereas his wife Megan was anything but forthcoming…
http://tommcfeeley.com/content/Supplement-131-Fredrickson-Megan-transcript-111809-C272.pdf
For those who have not seen these interviews…a little preview.
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Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
@White Rabbit,
He is supposed to be testifying for the state. I didn’t know that but, I read where he said the first trouble was in 2005. That’s what Polk was talking about, but the judge doesn’t want it in. Why? That isn’t right.
The man did just what Polk was describing, coming out and out of control.
Josh said they didn’t know what to do, but someone called 911 and he was given oxygen and the paramedics said it was a heat stroke. This is very confusing to me because it is a patteren and probably IF they hadn’t called 911 the man would have died. I guess that’s why the judge said NO to Polk. Josh won’t be able to be questioned about that. I didn’t see where he was living now,
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White Rabbit Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
@Aly,
On March 8, 2011, a Certificate was “made for the purpose of being presented to the Judge of Circuit Court, Tenth Judicial Circuit of Alabama” for the appearance of Josh Frederickson.
It mentioned Jefferson County, which is the next county east of Tuscaloosa.
Just wondering….. There have been so many twists and turns in this case.
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/03-08-2011%20CERTIFICATE.pdf
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Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
@White Rabbit,
Looks like the defense is trying to delay anyway they can because the they don’t want Josh to testify. He was supposed to testify 3/11? What happened at that time? Maybe the prosecution’s last witness will be Josh. That would be strong. I still believe the judge is damn wrong in not letting in 2005. He doesn’t make sense.
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LaVaughn Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
@Aly, He does make sense. It’s frustrating but it makes sense. There is no medical record of Daniel Pfankuch having a life-threatening condition. His medical records say heat syncope which is much lower on the continuum than heat stroke. His behavior suggests heat stroke but by the time he got to the hospital he was, apparently, not showing indications of heat stroke. I wrote up my thoughts on that here, if you’re interested. As obvious as it may seem in the real world, as a matter of law, it’s not. His legal reasoning is sound.
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Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
@LaVaughn,
Thanks LaVaughn,
I will read it, but one question was this. In 2005 Mrs. Hamilton called 911 and they gave Daniel oxygen and took him to the hospital. He had cooled down. They didn’t call 911 in 2009. If they would have, where they could have gotten oxygen like Daniel, wouldn’t their chances have been about like Daniels?
Since it happened pretty much the same in 2005?
Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
@LaVaughn,
That was a GREAT article LaVaughn! I loved you getting out your giant easel. I understood it so much better. : )
They get out their giant easel and all it does is confuse me. lol
And it says a whole lot about nothing. Your’s is right to the point! : )
Thanks so much for sending, I enjoyed it and I LOVED what you said about Kelly, SO TRUE!!!
LaVaughn Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 10:03 pm
@Aly, I’m not sure I understand your last question. They did call 911 in 2009. It was in 2007 and 2008 that they didn’t. By the time the ambulances got there in 2009, it was too late for James Shore, Kirby Brown, and Liz Neuman. Other people who might very possibly have died in 2009 are probably alive today because they were treated. There were other people who were in very bad shape. Also things were not exactly the same in 2005. The sweat lodge of 2009 was the hottest ever. After the problems in 2005, Ray dialed it back for a year, but the temps apparently got higher every year thereafter. In Daniel Pfankuch’s case, David Duhaime thinks he saved his live by hosing down his head with cold water. It may have been very significant. I don’t know. But it does seem like Pfankuch was better by the time he got to the hospital, his temp was probably reduced, and was no longer hallucinating, or he would probably have had a very different diagnosis.
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Aly Reply:
May 1st, 2011 at 12:54 am
@LaVaughn,
What I meant was they called 911 after James and Kirby had died, but called 911 for Daniel in 2005 in time to save his life. When the paramedics arrived they had time to give him oxygen and David may have saved his life by cooling him down with water, but it was too late for Kirby and James and as far as that goes Liz too, even though she wasn’t dead on the scene. Was that better? I understand, I confuse myself at times. : )
LaVaughn Reply:
May 1st, 2011 at 12:16 pm
@Aly, Check. I thought that was more or less what you were saying. The point I’m trying to make in that blog entry is that by accident or design, the fact that James Ray has intimidated his staff out of calling 911 ever, serves him legally. By the time any of these people, even the dead ones, get to the hospital, the clinical symptoms of heat stroke have abated. It makes it hard to diagnose someone with heat stroke once the body temp has dropped, which it will if they’re removed from the heat aggressively cooled with a hose, and flushed with IV fluids, over a period of an hour or more. There is no lab test for heat stroke. It’s a system failure due to heat of complex and varied symptoms and it can only really be diagnosed clinically. In the case of Kirby Brown and James Shore, they were effectively, already dead when they were pulled from the tent. The time to act would have been when people told Ray that people were unconscious and unresponsive. Remember that Ray promised they’d get people out if they passed out. Then he said to leave them there. He should have done something as soon as he heard people were unconscious in that overheated environment. That was their only hope.
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Aly Reply:
May 1st, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@LaVaughn,
Thanks again. : )
Oh My God, that is terrible about Daniel Dfankuch, awful. His wife tells him about James Ray, he joins them up together and now he’s homeless and she left him. The only way they can say “heatstroke” is what? The paramedics that arrived there said it was a heatstroke.
I’m sure a lot of people were having seizures that we saw on the ground. But, haven’t heard that from anyone. Looks like Daniel will never get any justice.
I heard about this about the time it happened in 09, but really didn’t hear much about it after that. A lot of this, I’m just hearing or learning about so I really appreciate being able learn it here. I still don’t understand some of the “legal” things, but trying! : )
Aly Reply:
April 30th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
@White Rabbit,
Thanks, I’m not even half way through, but it sure is interesting and Josh will be when he gets on the stand. I hope soon.
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SD & Friends: Public court doc from Defense lists Warrior attendees from all years with names, addresses, cell phone numbers, emails & notes. This is UNBELIEVABLE.
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Aly Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 1:20 am
@Kalista7,
I don’t understand.
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Kalista7 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 12:30 pm
@Aly, They removed it, as per Ms. Polk’s request for immediate sealing of the document. Go to: https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/ and click on 05-02-2011 MOTION.pdf
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2Tired2 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 1:34 pm
@Kalista7,
“They removed it, as per Ms. Polk’s request for immediate sealing of the document. Go to: https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/ and click on 05-02-2011 MOTION.pdf”
~~~
Gotcha. That info SHOULD be removed ~ regardless of whose side you’re on ~ IMHO
Gosh, with that stuff, no one would ever go anywhere and no one would ever serve on a jury or get a driver’s license or get a passport or…..
Too much Big Brother for my comfort level (& I’m a nobody)
(Maybe I’m TOO nosy :-)))
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 2:54 pm
@Kalista7,
Yep…it’s a goner :-(
Just when I was getting ready to be really-really nosy!
~~~
In my plowing around, I found a pleading with some really interesting exhibits attached (notes):
(I’m sure there are many more, yet I just happened to stumble on this motion filed by the defense. & I must say, I have never seen motions filed with “work product” attached) Hmmm
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/04-20-2011%20MOTION-SANCTIONS.pdf
[Reply]
Kalista7 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 6:27 pm
@2Tired2, Interesting! I saw some of the jury questions yesterday, and they are hand written notes – available on the court website.
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 11:05 am
@Kalista7,
Hey…! Can you provide a link for the defense witness list?
I would really appreciate it :-)))
~~~
The latest witness list, filed by the prosecution was filed on 4/22/11:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/04-22-2011%20MISCELLANEOUS-WITNESS%20LIST.pdf
No supplemental pros witness list has been filed since in the Yavapai Co. Clerk’s office, that I can see.
I would love to see the def witness list ~ it might be way down the “list”
Thanx :-)
[Reply]
Kalista7 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 12:33 pm
@2Tired2, I couldn’t find one either, sorry! :)
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 12:31 pm
@Kalista7,
“Kalista7 said:
“SD & Friends: Public court doc from Defense lists Warrior attendees from all years with names, addresses, cell phone numbers, emails & notes. This is UNBELIEVABLE.”
Sorry ~ I misread (had the witness list on my mind)
Anyhoo ~ could you provide a link for that? ~ thanx :-)
~~~
Defense’s original witness list from Yavapai Co. Clerk’s office, filed 1/31/11
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/01-31-2011%20MISCELLANEOUS-WITNESS%20LIST.pdf
AMENDED list filed by defense on 2/7/11…
This info might be published on someone else’s site, yet, I am here & have no intention to run amuck looking for it…:-)
[Reply]
I think the jury were giving Li and Do dirty looks because they had to sit through fucking days of stuff like what kind of camera took the rat poison pictures and how much did it cost. Was this rat poison picture taken 15 min or 30 min after this one, etc.
The after all that the jury discovers that there was no rat/ant/wood poison theory until 2011 when the DT “presented” it.
IMO the dirty looks had nothing to do with who the jury thinks has the burden of proof. What happened was, in the moment they discovered there was no poison theory until the DT made it up, the DT’s whole charade collapsed. The jury could see what the DT has been doing to them and they are pissed! No jury instruction can unring that bell.
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@jamo,
You’re right! They were trying to make the jury look like fools. Like OK we’ll throw this stupid junk out there and the jury will buy it. I think Li said he had never seen anything like this. WELL!!!!! Neither had they!
[Reply]
Please see my msg above…
Keep scrolling, y’all
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/04-20-2011%20MOTION-SANCTIONS.pdf
[Reply]
ATTN: Mr. Salty
Uh, where-oh-where should I post this extraordinarily, super-important & relevant info about lil Jimmy Ray’s trial?
(Oh, shootz, I got poison ivy walking the dog today)
Nevertheless ~ Is there a particular spot on/in which to post w/i the James Ray department?
Or, just keep what’s left of my eyes OPEN?
[Reply]
Rumor: No trial Tues. May 3, juror is ill – maybe I can get some work done, lol
Sending prayers to juror and all others…
[Reply]
O
MY
GAWD
!!!
I just now read this on the twitter feed:
Lynne LaMaster: #jamesray no trial due to sick juror. Also, after Friday, I’ve been told CNN will cease live trial coverage due to satellite limitations.
about 58 minutes ago
How are we going to deal with that? Resume our life again?
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 11:32 pm
@Rubies,
It isn’t going to be on In Session? They’re going to stop covering THIS trial?
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 2nd, 2011 at 11:36 pm
@Rubies,
Besides Rubies, that total Bullshit. What, they’re limited because they’re going to start the 2 they’ve been advertising for weeks? And I’m not watching them, as if they care.
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 8:30 am
@Rubies, & everybody…
So, CNN is not going to broadcast the Jimbo trial anymore?
I’ll look for another live streaming…surely, the local-ish news stations have cameras ~ I hope *weak grin*
I protest…I want to see this, by golly (has anybody else looked for live streaming?)
And the Conrad Murray trial has been delayed to September.
So, CNN can only work off ONE satellite? Horseshit. They are prolly taping, so they can show it to us if something blows up in the Anthony case…
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 12:46 pm
@2Tired2,
I believe they have a lot of tape, just aren’t showing what we missed. Like they prefer to use what they have on the Murphy and Anthony trial. They shouldn’t do that. I wish Judge Perry would tell them that trial can’t be taped. I would love it.
They can’t start a trial and just stop it like that. That’s giving the media what it wants, NOT the people. I protest too, Tired. I’m not watching either one of those trials.
I’ve written, but doubt it will do any good.
I’m so sick of them jacking around with us. I wish another couple of channels would pick up court.
IF they’re going to show it, you have to show the whole thing, not stop smack dab in the middle and leave you hanging.
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm
@Aly,
Thanx, Aly
re: James Ray trial broadcast
I feel like I’ve been rode hard and put up wet…!
I’ve been looking for the I-wanna-bitch-at-cnn link…not any forum links, not any other links…just the general link…
Maybe I’ll call Ted Turner (he owns it all) lOOking to see if he’s on my speed dial…Nope.
Anyhoo ~ when I find an appropriate link, I’ll post it.
I DO see below some links ~ yet, my idea is to go straight to the top…Yeah, right *lame grin*
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 11:30 am
@2Tired2,
Well, you let me know what Ted says. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Tired you are too funny. I feel pretty much the same.
Damn, I sure didn’t want to miss Sarah Mercer’s testimony!
Thet aren’t even mentioning about the James Ray trial at all. I haven’t even heard on In Session some juror was sick.
Or the trial will be back on, NOTHING!!
It’s like there never was a trial in the first place.
[Reply]
Kalista7 Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:35 pm
@2Tired2, I heard today they are just now picking the jury for the Anthony case…. so I don’t think anything on this trial would be broadcast at this point? Does anyone else know?
[Reply]
2Tired2 Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 9:23 am
@Kalista7,
Well, the jury selection isn’t scheduled til Monday. And that will take a while. They have to go out-of-county to pick one. AND, some media outlets have filed an appeal in FL.
So, I hope that lil Jimbo’s trial will be shown during all of that nonsense.
From CNN today’s schedule:
“Today’s coverage
11:30 AM
Sweat lodge manslaughter trial
The trial of James Arthur Ray, accused of manslaughter in the deaths of three people during a sweat lodge ceremony, continues in Arizona.
Testimony: Arizona sweat lodge resembled ‘battleground’”
[Reply]
NOOOOOOO!! Everyone write to CNN! You can email them from the CNN Live screen and protest. Good God! What am I supposed to do without my James Ray trial? Get stuff done?!? Shit.
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:24 am
@scammed,
You can email them through this link.
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form9d.html
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:29 am
@White Rabbit,
Thanks. That’ll give me something to do for a couple of minutes. What’ll I do for the rest of the day? Shoot–back to being productive and stuff…..
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 11:34 am
@scammed,
Really!! I can’t get stuff done.
That WAS NOT in my plan!
No respect, we just get no respect! lol
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
@Aly,
Too true. Sad, really. I distantly remember a time (a couple of months ago) when I could clean and do errands and accomplish something called, what was it…..oh yeah, work. Oh well. :-)
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
@scammed,
I think that’s what they called it. : )
[Reply]
Okay, here’s possibly a better source to protest to on the In Session website, which is CNN-affiliated. Try: http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5c.html?33.
I do too have a life. :)
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:25 am
without the period on the end above
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:47 am
@scammed,
Your link goes to InSession and mine goes to CNN Live. I don’t get cable but I did both anyway.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:16 pm
@White Rabbit,
Bless you.
[Reply]
ATTN: SD
Here we go again:
The wicked web-server people said:
“You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.”
Ok…I can’t type that fast ~ so, I’ll put myself into s-l-o m-o
[Reply]
Witness list scheduled for this week:
Detective Diskin (cont.)
Steve Page (YCSO)
Dr. Mosley (Coconino Co. Medical Examiner)
Sarah Mercer
Dawn Sy (Criminalist)
Sgt. Barbaro (YCSO)
People are trying to get CNN to continue streaming the video of the trial. Hope so!! Also, remember they’re off from May 16-25.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:20 pm
@Kalista7,
Okay, apparently, I’ve been spending far too many hours doing stupid “life” stuff away from my CNN Live and Salty Droid sites. What’s the long trial break for, if you please? Or did you mean they are still having the trial, but not broadcasting on CNN Live?
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:46 pm
@scammed,
At the beginning Li reminded the Judge that he had put in for a vacation.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 9:55 am
@White Rabbit,
Wow-I guess it’s rather mercenary or me, but just seems weird that one lawyer can stop the whole trial for a long vacation right in the middle. Come to think of it, they’re not stupid, and I have a hard time believing that Li would actually take all that vacation time during Ray’s trial (Ray would be furious-right?). Who thinks the defense considered this a loooong time ago as a stop gap measure in what they assumed would be the middle of the trial to gather their resources and maybe give the jury a break from all that damning testimony against James Ray? I mean, Li definitely knew for a long time approximately when the trial was taking place and he planned a vacation then? Please. It’s a strategy.
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 11:47 am
@White Rabbit,
They can do that?? really?
So does that mean they all get a vacation?
That just doesn’t make sense.
The judge should take control here and tell him,
he’ll have to put that off.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
@Aly,
My husband (retired cop who spent a lot of time in the courtroom) said he can’t believe the judge would have granted Li vacation during an important criminal trial. Normally would have told him to wait until after unless it was some truly mitigating circumstances. Salty? Any thoughts? This does seem really unusual. Do we have the wrong information?
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
@scammed,
Thanks scammed, you’re right! I can’t see how this could happen. I really does sound insane and besides James Ray is out on bond, don’t they have to give that some consideration?
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
@scammed,
The circumstances were not elaborated but at the very beginning Li had made it clear that he had a vacation already scheduled for this time period. Yes, it is nuts to stop the trial so he can go on vacation. But everything about this trial is nuts.
SD Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@scammed ::
I hadn’t heard about this break. But “vacation” could also mean “colonoscopy” or some other such thing that’s not our business.
James Ray is represented by 5 lawyers and 2 law firms though :: so I don’t see how the absence of one short lawyer should count for jack.
Omikse Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
@scammed,….maybe Mr. Li is taking a ‘mental health vacation’. He is seated beside Ray, maybe some of the lunacy is rubbing off. It could even be organophosphate residue cross contamination, Mr. Li is sitting there and not wearing either gloves or a respirator!
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
@scammed,
They all should be wearing Tyvek suits.
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@scammed,
The DT, not wearing Tyvek suits, has created cross-contamination.
(Sorry…couldn’t resist.)
Aaron Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Anyone know why two jurors were dismissed?
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Aaron,
One was dismissed due to illness, the other because of family issues.
I don’t understand why CNN is so hung up on Casey Anthony. Is it because she is cute? I mean JAR is a national figure that has been on Oprah/Larry King several times. I seems to me that his trial would take precedence in interest.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 9:58 am
@jamo,
I think most people get hung up on these ‘mothers who kill’. I’ve told some friends of mine in passing that I’m watching the James Ray trial and they’re like, “who?”. Shame.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 11:45 am
@jamo,
Casey Anthony’s case is like a live murder mystery, there seemed like was someting new everyday..Not that it is exactly a mystery but with all the twists and turns in this case ..The parents and the very odd way they have acted, the boyfriends, the “high profile” attorneys etc it is a very convoluted interesting case..BUT I want to see the James Ray Trial more..
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
@wondering why,
This has been a trial for 3 years. It’s crazy! Vinny looks like an asshole driving through their neiborhood. Mike Brooks as well. LIKE They don’t even care that right now they are tainting the jury pool. The way that In Session has advertised this trial and the Murphy Trial, I wish that the judges would decide NO TV coverage PERIOD. Then what would In Session and their BS team do.
Everyone in the media has had their say over it and the media is fighting for more.
IF appealed it could take 6 more months.
MAYBE, then we will see the James Ray trial.
They’s already stopped as much advertising on the Murphy trial because it’s off until September.
Since In Session has rambled on and on about this, it may have to be put off.
Then I hope that they will show the James Ray Trial, like they started. THis is total bullshit!
[Reply]
We have video!!!
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
@nancy,
Video of what? I don’t understand!
[Reply]
Kalista7 Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
@Aly, Live streaming video of the trial! Yay!! :)
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 5:37 pm
@Kalista7,
Kalista, please don’t laugh, but what is live
streaming video. : /
Where do I see it? : )
Told you I was new.
Yay, sounds good!: )
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
@Aly,
You can find it at
http://live.cnn.com
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
@Aly,
You can watch the trial live at live.cnn.com. Just click on the sweatlodge trial. Should start sometime between 8:30 and 9:30 am, depending on if they have arguments without the jury present. Those are often more interesting than the trial. Be forewarned: may be addicting and you may find your life passing you by……:-)
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 11:31 pm
@scammed,
Thanks for the warning. : )
I know, it really is addicting, but very interesting, isn’t it?
Truly Fucking amazing!
Last week I wrote and epically wonderful treatise on why Organophosphates couldn’t have been responsible… (you can’t get enough of them into such a small space to produce the toxic levels needed)
These week, expert Court Authorities contacted me with a vital detail about my whole brilliant diatribe:
AMDRO and JUST ONE BITE don’t contain organophosphates.
In fact, the chemicals they contain are even LESS toxic.
What? Say that again…
Last week I didn’t have the names of the poisons in question, just the defense claims that organophosphates did it… But this week I was sent the names of the products on property… AMDRO and JUST ONE BITE…
Of course, being a dipshit, instead of wasting time, I just turned directly to the MSDS data sheets for these two products…
Acute toxity with direct dermal contact for both products is 2000mg/kg. So in a an avg 60kg person, that’s 120,000mg smeared all over your body (to reach that level of exposure, you’d need to powdering, pulverize, making a paste or a cream, then cover your body in that paste, four to eight times)…
For a visual, imagine trying to eat an entire jar of peanut butter by trying to absorb it through your skin.
Orally, for both substances it’s 5,000mg/kg, (300,000mg) – or 10 ounces!
The container the defense showed of Amdro was a 12 ounces, you would have to eat the entire thing for it to be a risk to you… Not just sit in it, one person would need to eat that entire container!
But wait, it gets worse, Amdro is not even water soluble, it’s active element hydramethylnon (ie. not even an organophosphate) is stabilized in the granule form so well that it is not soluble in water at all, meaning, it could not be turned to vapor by steam…
Now, for the apex, THE MSDS formally classifies Amdro as – “Practically non-toxic.”
“Practically Fucking Non-Toxic” That’s the MSDS… The definitive source, the most frightening and pessimistic EPA & FDA approved
resource on the planet… “Practically Fucking Non-Toxic”
The Defense has spent two months arguing that Organophosphates like ‘Amdro’ could be responsible, but Amdro isn’t even an organophosphate! …and EPA regards it as “Practically Fucking Non-Toxic”… Safe for playgrounds…
The defense is talking about searching for trace elements of a practically non-toxic substance, when it would have taken almost a pound per person ORALLY to have even presented a risk!
How safe are these substances?
5 times safer then table salt. Seriously. The MSDS classes these substances “Practically Non-Toxic” which is the same class as table salt. However, according to the MSDS, table salt is five times more toxic taking only takes 1000mg/kg orally to be life threatening. Just two ounces of tablesalt taken orally can kill a full grown human, that’s fives times less then Andro or Just One Bite.
The actual products in question are safer than salt, and of absolutely no feasible risk whatsoever.
Check it out for Yourself:
Just One Bite MSDS: http://msds.farnam.com/m000369.htm
Amdro MSDS: http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/msds/hydramethylnon.amdro.granular.ant.bait.au.pdf
Table Salt MSDS: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593
The defense is crap, but this sort of pure fabrication they are trying to get away with is an insult to us all.
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Injun, thank you for all of this. It just boggles the mind that they have spent over two months going down peoples’ throats about organophosphates and how toxic these common pesticides are when they actually…aren’t. Love it.
I wonder if James is realizing how badly his team has wasted his money and everyone’s time with all of their absurd lines of questioning. I am hoping Ms. Polk reads this before she questions some of the experts.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
@White Rabbit,
The real irony is that ALL the chemicals they found and mentioned DON’T HAVE ANY ORGANOPHOSPHATES IN THEM!
I mean, the least they could do is come up with a defense that’s at least theoretically possible.
“Deus ex machina” ain’t shit without the machine… You take away the machine, you take away the savior…
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 5:10 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Mr. Ill-Informed Dipshit: Alright Mr. Injun smarty pants… I noticed you didn’t mention 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol. That was clearly found in trace elements on the tarps… What do you have to say about that?
Injun Smaurai: 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol in it’s purest form requires exposure levels of 3730mg/kg orally, that’s about 7 ounces. Three times less toxic then table salt.
Mr. Ill-Informed Dipshit: I object! They breathed it, they didn’t take it orally. It’s a VOC! Kelly said so.
Injun Samurai: Yes, it is a VOC (Volatile Organic Compound), and to be specific it is the 21st most common VOC in the world with 100% of all indoor air in all buildings and homes tested by the EPA in America exhibiting it’s presence (http://www.epa.gov/iaq/base/voc_master_list.html)… It’s found in carpets, paints, siding, tile, wood stain, furniture, televisions, cookware, stereos, computers, utensils, and pretty much everything else made of vinyl or plastic. It is found in 100% of the air in all structures everywhere, not finding would have been suspicious.
Mr. Ill-Informed Dipshit: I object, you can just tell by the name it’s poison! 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol, it’s just sounds deadly, you can tell, you know…
Injun Samurai: In spite of it’s scary name is just an 8 carbon molecule used in the production of everything. It’s extremely stable once bound to other molecules, you’re breathing right now as you read this, and in it’s most toxic form it would take 7 pure ounces of it to kill you. For a 80×80 foot tarp to off gas enough 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol to kill even a single person is theoretically impossible, there simply isn’t 7 ounces of it available in twenty tarps that size. But even if there were, the decomposition needed to extract it would take years and reduce the tarps to a fine powder.
In short, no matter how you do the math, if you trust the stringent guidelines laid down by the EPA and FDA, it is not even remotely feasible that a substance as common, as trusted, and as safe as 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol could have played a part in the death of these people.
Mr. Ill-Informed Dipshit: I object, it could have been salt. The electorlyte water had salt in it. You said yourself Salt is more toxic than any of these other chemicals…
Injun Samurai: Technically, table salt is a dramatically more realistic culprit than 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol or Organophosphates… However, the name ‘Table Salt’ is not nearly as intimidating.
MSDS for 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol in it’s most toxic liquid state: http://www.oltchim.ro/en/uploaded/2%20EH_rev.7_eng.pdf
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 6:36 pm
@Injun Samurai,
So, If it sounds deadly, it must be?
How about Poison? Sounds deadly, doesn’t, so must be!
NOT!!!
It’s the name of my perfume! : )
I haven’t died yet.
He is a dipshit, he thinks what Kelly says is the truth?
Mr. Dipshit said the water had salt in you, Mr Ray ordered
that besides his argument there shows he’s a double DipShit!!
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 7:03 pm
@Injun Samurai,
Okay, this all makes sooooo much sense when you explain it. Any reason why the prosecution can’t explain it so concisely and eloquently? This may be a stupid idea, but I’m thinking that if several of us forward your info to the prosecution, maybe one of the emails might get read. Your last two entries just seem like they would be fantastic to get to Polk and company. I mean, they could totally derail the defense with your arguments tout de suite. I’d love to see the faces of the defense team with those kinds of in-your-face, incontrovertible facts. Nice job, Injun Samarai.
I guess they’d need an expert to do the explaining, but still…
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 8:37 am
@scammed,
There is a solid chance that the prosecution knows all this stuff… It’s somewhat absurd to think they don’t have access to complete MSDS files (you can request them at LOWES or HomeDepot for any product they sell)…
The word on the street is, they are letting the absurd poison defense run because they know they can squash it completely at the end of the trial with a single credible expert witness. (let the defense put all it’s eggs in one fragile basket)
The notion is that – “If we squash it now, the defense will have time to fabricate something new, let them run it, play possum, and completely destroy it at the end of the trial when they won’t have time to create something new…”
I personally don’t like that kind of posturing… But I respect it if that’s what they’re doing.
Personally, I like to see decisive, crushing victories, not last minute come from behinds. I don’t want a miracle at a finish line, I want the Prosecution to destroy every fictitious claim the defense makes with the harsh light of irrefutable proof.
I want reasonable doubt scuttled every day, in every way possible.
Salty insists that it’s a tactical ploy by the prosecution, and he’s pretty much got a 10 for 10 record of being right, and it makes sense, they’ve got the EPA expert last, so I’ll trust that they are preparing a massive knock-out punch…
However, if you or anyone else wants to send them links to this page and say “ctrl+f > ‘Injun’ > read > win” I’m totally eager to stack the deck in their favor, there is a slight chance they’ve just been so overwhelmed with the bullshit, that they’ve overlooked the decisive simplicity of the MSDS…
Diskin could have easily seeded his answers with mentions of his reference materials…
End Note: MSDS are “Material Safety Data Sheets”. In America they are overseen and regulated by OSHA “Occupational Safety and Health Administration” and cross referenced to the Chemical Abstracts Service Registry overseen by the ACS – American Chemical Society – where they are then cross-correlated to and by the United Nations Department of International Hazardous Material Regulation via UN Hazardous Material Identification Numbers.
Because of this immense chain of oversight, federally approved MSDS sheets are the definitive source of insight into all matters concerning chemicals and public welfare.
The fact that no one has mentioned them so far in the trial concerns me, for example, the MSDS for Amdro clearly states that it’s insoluble and thus can’t be vaporized via steam, why is Kelly allowed to say it can?
If you want to try and invite the defense to this website, and these comments, I’m very hip to that…
If you want to steer people towards this page at other forums, blogs, etc. I strongly encourage that. The more noise we make on this simple notion, the better. The more people we guide to Salty’s site, the better.
Thanks for whatever you do Scammed, just the fact that you read the comment and cared enough to comment back is a significant start…
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 10:52 am
@Injun Samurai,
I’ll do what I can. Thanks for your astute arguments. Right now I’m frothing at the mouth (over at May 5 entry) that CNN cut the medical examiner off in order to have 4 screens of Obama placing a wreath. I’m all about covering that ceremony, just don’t see why we can’t keep one friggin screen. The examiner looked like he might be really good.
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
@Injun Samurai,
One thing that struck me square in the Bunny brains today was when Kelly was telling Diskin that the report had shown a-terpinol.
I am not a whiz at organic chemistry, but I recognized it as a plant compound and I suspected that it would be distilled from coniferous trees.
So I googled turpentine. What a fascinating history. This is some of what Wikipedia had to say: (bear with me, this gets really interesting)
“Turpentine (also called spirit of turpentine, oil of turpentine, and wood turpentine) is a fluid obtained by the distillation of resin obtained from trees, mainly pine trees. It is composed of terpenes, mainly the monoterpenes alpha-pinene and beta-pinene. It is sometimes known as turps.
Important pines for turpentine production include: Maritime Pine (Pinus pinaster), Aleppo Pine (Pinus halepensis), Masson’s Pine (Pinus massoniana), Sumatran Pine (Pinus merkusii), Longleaf Pine (Pinus palustris), Loblolly Pine (Pinus taeda) and Ponderosa Pine (Pinus ponderosa).
Turpentine distilled from the California pines such as Ponderosa Pine (Pinus ponderosa) and Gray Pine (Pinus sabiniana) yield a form of turpentine that is almost pure Heptane.[2]
When producing chemical wood pulp from pines or other coniferous trees with the Kraft process, turpentine is collected as a byproduct. Often it is burned at the mill for energy production. The average yield of crude turpentine is 5–10 kg/t pulp.[3]
The two primary uses of turpentine in industry are as a solvent and as a source of materials for organic synthesis.
As a solvent, turpentine is used for thinning oil-based paints, for producing varnishes, and as a raw material for the chemical industry. Its industrial use as a solvent in industrialized nations has largely been replaced by the much cheaper turpentine substitutes distilled from crude oil.
Canada balsam, also called Canada turpentine or balsam of fir, is a turpentine which is made from the resin of the balsam fir.
Turpentine is also added to many cleaning and sanitary products due to its antiseptic properties and its “clean scent”.
Turpentine has long been used as a solvent, mixed with beeswax or with carnauba wax, to make fine furniture wax for use as a protective coating over oiled wood finishes (e.g., lemon oil).
Turpentine and petroleum distillates such as coal oil and kerosene have been used medicinally since ancient times, as topical and sometimes internal home remedies. Topically it has been used for abrasions and wounds, as a treatment for lice, and when mixed with animal fat it has been used as a chest rub, or inhaler for nasal and throat ailments. Many modern chest rubs, such as the Vicks variety, still contain turpentine in their formulations.
Taken internally it was used as treatment for intestinal parasites because of its alleged antiseptic and diuretic properties, and a general cure-all[6][7] as in Hamlin’s Wizard Oil. Sugar, molasses or honey were sometimes used to mask the taste. Internal administration of these toxic products is no longer common today.
Turpentine was a common medicine among seamen during the Age of Discovery, and one of several products carried aboard Ferdinand Magellan’s fleet in his first circumnavigation of the globe.[8]
Turpentine was a common additive in cheap gin until the 20th century and gave it its characteristic juniper berry flavor without the need for pricier distillations with aromatic spices and berries.[9].
Pinus Picra, or Silver Fir-tree, yields common Turpentine; and to sleep on a pillow made from its yellow shavings is a capital American device for relieving asthma. Fir cones are called “buntins,” and “oysters.”
“Tears,” or resin drops, which trickle out on the stems of the Pine, if taken, five or six of these tears in a day, will benefit chronic bronchitis, and will prove useful to lessen the cough of consumption.
When swallowed in a full dose, Turpentine gives a sensation of warmth, and excites the secretion of urine, to which it imparts a violet hue. It also promotes perspiration, and stimulates the bronchial mucous membrane. From eight to twenty drops may be given as a dose to produce these effects; but an immoderate dose will purge, or intoxicate, and stupefy, causing strangury, and congestion of the kidneys.
For bleeding from the lungs, five drops may be given, and repeated at intervals of not less than half-an-hour, whilst needed. The dose may be taken in milk, or on sugar, or bread.
With the object of meeting for a curative purpose such symptoms occurring as disease which large doses of this particular drug will produce, as if by poisoning, in a healthy person, quite small doses of Turpentine oil will promptly relieve simple congestion of the kidneys, when occurring as illness, it may be from exposure to cold, and accompanied by some feverishness, with frequent urination, as well as a dragging of the loins. On which principle three or four drops of a diluted tincture of Turpentine (made with one part of Turpentine to nine parts of spirit of wine), given in a spoonful of milk every four hours, will speedily dispel the congestion, thus acting as an infallible specific, and a similar dose of the same tincture will quickly subdue rheumatic inflammation of the eyes.
A pleasant form in which to administer Turpentine, whether for chronic bronchitis or for kidney congestion from cold, is a confection. This may be made by rubbing up one part of oil of turpentine, with one part of liquorice powder, and with two parts of clarified honey. Combine the first two together, then add the honey. If the Turpentine separates, pour it off, and add it again with plenty of rubbing until it unites. From half to one teaspoonful of this confection, when mixed with two tablespoonfuls of peppermint-water, will be found palatable, and may be repeated two or three times in the day.
What is called Terebene, a most useful medicine for winter cough, is produced by the action of sulphuric acid on Turpentine. From five to ten drops may be taken on sugar three or four times in the day, and its vapor acts by inhalation as a very useful antiseptic sedative in consumptive disease of the lungs.
Externally, Turpentine is stimulating and counter-irritating, and derivative. When applied to the skin, unless properly diluted, Turpentine will cause redness and smarting to a painful degree, with an outbreak of small blisters. As an embrocation, the oil of turpentine mixed with spirit of wine and camphor, together with soap liniment, proves very efficacious for the relief of sciatica, and for the chronic rheumatism of joints. Also, when compounded with wax and resin, it makes an excellent healing ointment for indolent, and unhealthy sores.
In Dublin, Turpentine is commingled with peppermint water, and used as an external stimulant for chronic bronchitis.
The famous liniment of St. John Long consisted of oil of turpentine one part, acetic acid one part, and liniment of camphor one part. This was of admirable service for rubbing along the spine to relieve the irritability of the spinal nerves, and it has proved effectual to modify or prevent epileptic attacks, by being thus applied. In cases of colic attending obstinate constipation, with strengthless distension of the bowels, Turpentine mixed with starch or thin gruel, an ounce to the pint, and administered as a clyster, makes one of the most reliable and safe evacuants. Also as a remedy for round worms, six or eight drops (more or less according to age) may be safely and effectively given to a child on one or more nights in milk.
Pills made from Chian Turpentine, which is got from Cyprus, were extolled by Dr. Clay of Manchester, in 1880, as a cure for cancer of the womb, and for some other forms of cancerous disease. From five to ten grains were to be given in a pill, or mixed with mucilage as an emulsion, so that in all daily, after food, and in divided doses, one hundred and eighty grains of this Turpentine were swallowed; and the quantity was gradually increased until five hundred grains a day were taken. In many cases this method of treatment proved undoubtedly useful.
A small quantity of powdered sulphur was also incorporated by Dr. Clay in his Chian pills. About the fourth day the pain was relieved, and the cancerous growth would melt away in a period of from four to thirteen weeks. The arrest of bleeding and the continued freedom from glandular infection after a prolonged use of this Chian Turpentine were highly important points in the improvement produced.”
From another site:
“The resin, which is called rosin, is used on violin bows and in sizing paper.”
With that I mind, Charlie Daniels and Yo Yo Ma shouldn’t be alive if it were so toxic. My parents should be thrown in jail for making me take violin lessons as a kid.
And why would there be a registered amount of a-terpinol? They were burning cedar wood. If these compounds are so toxic, the deer wouldn’t be stripping my arborvitae trees (eastern white cedar) as high as they can reach. To them it is a delicacy.
I do know that Native Americans burn it for cleansing just as they use sage (Artemisia) and Sweet Grass. I have burned it both for cleansing and as wood and I have never gotten sick.
I love how there are so many minds inputting in these posts. This is just another case of the defense throwing out words that people may not be familiar with and insinuating that they are scary.
We are Borg.
Past the salt and gin and give me a dab of Vicks Vapo Rub.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 9:10 pm
@White Rabbit, “Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts are edible.” ~ Euell Gibbons
Actually the entire tree is edible. Seriously. But more importantly terpineols, including alpha and 4-OL which Kelly referenced, are indeed natural chemical components of cedar, along with other terpenes. They’re used in perfumery, among other things. I’m an aromatherapist. I have to know crap like that. Kelly’s full of shit.
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 10:55 am
@LaVaughn,
I never ate a pine tree but many years ago I spent one summer going out each day with my copy of Euell Gibbons’ book Stalking the Wild Asparagus and ate what I found.
I have never had formal training in aromatherapy but I have used oils and when Kelly kept hammering on that one spike I thought: That isn’t right. That’s a load of crap.
Plus he never did mention why he thought it was so toxic. It just sounds that way. Kind of like Jessica Rabbit (I’m not bad, I’m just drawn that way.)
But then from the defense’s viewpoint, it’s not about the Truth, it’s about the perception.
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 12:02 am
@White Rabbit,
That was very interesting! There’s way too much put on this jury to comprehend “accident”
I think it was very stupid for this defense to go on the poison bit.
It seems so simple, they died of heat and James Ray didn’t care. I would think it wouldn’t take the jury to long to believe they are being held over for days of what I call stupid “other” reasons that they died.
I know they’re supposed to try to prove otherwise, but it’s coming off as the worst kind of defense.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 10:00 am
@White Rabbit,
That is an awesome comment my friend…
I missed Kelly’s mention of turpines…
…and I love your expose on them, I didn’t realize they were so multi-purposed.
The only thing I knew about them, was that as a farm boy / wood worker, we use turpentine to wash the pesticides off us at the day. Seriously.
No joke, I’ve always (and still do) use turpentine to wash with, clean cuts, and deal with allergies or colds. I didn’t know you could take it orally as a medicine, but I knew people mix it with gin and drink it…
I saw the MSDS on it, and it says it would take 12 ounces orally to kill you…
Can you imagine how stubborn a person would have to be to to drink 12 ounces of pure turpentine?
That’s the thing the defense seems to missing, all these substances are strong smelling and tasting. To expose oneself to toxic levels would require ludicrously high concentrations (29000ppm)- at that level, the smell would be horrendous, unbearable, every witness there would be complaining of the smells…
All these substances have unmistakably strong odors, to reach toxic levels, every participant would be mentioning the horrific smells… So far, no one has even hinted about the smell…
Mind you – they were sitting in pool of piss, so we know they were somewhat tolerant individuals…
But get this, Turpentine is Safer then Piss.
No joke, the piss James Ray told them to release in the lodge was technically more dangerous than the Amdro, Turpentine, or Just One Bite…
In fact, James Ray’s instructions to urinate openly in a closed occupied space violates countless OSHA regulations and represents an indisputable negligence for the safety of the occupants in those spaces…
Turpentine MSDS: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925375
Uric Acid MSDS: http://sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Uric_acid-9925393
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
May 5th, 2011 at 11:02 am
@Injun Samurai,
Yesterday when Li was doing his cross examination and determining the square footage of the lodge and the amount of soil they sampled, I was almost wondering if he was upset that they didn’t sample the spot where Lou had pissed. But it is all smoke and mirrors and posturing on their part. They really have nothing to say but they say it at great length.
In Chinese medicine there is urine therapy where you drink the first urine you pass in the morning. The urine of a healthy person should be sterile.
[Reply]
Aly Reply:
May 4th, 2011 at 5:33 pm
@Injun Samurai,
And THAT, Injun is why the jury is giving the
defense dirty looks. : )
All along it sounds like the defense believe they are talking to
idiots and that plan isn’t working.
What plan will they have next to waste the jurors time?
Polk should call you to testify.
[Reply]
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