Aggravating Accomplices

Boxing Without Balls

>> bleep :: begin 80’s musical intro …

Face to face, out in the heat
Hangin’ tough, stayin’ hungry
They stack the odds ’til we take to the street
For we kill with the skill to survive

It’s the eye of the tiger, it’s the cream of the fight
Risin’ up to the challenge of our rival
And the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night
And he’s watchin’ us all in the eye of the tiger

>> bloop

Now I’m pumped!  Are you pumped?  Greg Hartle is pumped :: he’s the “cream of the fight” :: it’s the kind of warm cream that an old lady drinks to facilitate falling asleep by 8:30 pm.  It doesn’t sound very kick ass :: but it is…n’t.

Unlike Megan Fredrickson and her wife Josh :: Greg is not one of Death Ray’s original disciples.  He hasn’t been in every Death/Torture Lodge since 2004 {like Megan} :: and unlike J-Fred … Greg may actually have a Y chromosome. The Droid’s intel says that Greg came to JRI in early Fall of 2008.  Previously he held the title of VP of Operations at what looks like a sham investment company :: Desert Growth Investments LLC

“Greg brings a strong background in business and systems development. Most recently, Greg held a management position with a 3.5 billion dollar bank holding company where he oversaw Items Processing at two national locations.”

Okay :: sounds like a wordy way to say he was a bank teller.  Color me impressed {with crayons}.  But wait! :: there’s more …

“Greg’s training experience includes Six Sigma, Lean Manufacturing, and ISO 9000 among others.”

Ooo la la.  Among others?  How many quality control certifications does one d-bag need?  It takes lots of time and money to get certified in each of these … and there is nothing in the world more boring.  It would be very unusual for a company to train you in more than one process {unless that company was in Bangalore where certification overdose is all the rage}.  Added to the fact that these certs have NOTHING to do with making “strategic investments in real estate” :: and the air starts to stink of bullshit.

It also seems that Gregory is fishin’ & kissin’ buddies with our not-friend Jason Moffatt.  Moffatt had an interesting post on his blog about attending a James Arthur Ray event.  He was none to interested in all the self-help :: fake quantum physics :: mumbo gumbo.  But was completely gay about the pressure sales tactics :: a hustler knows a good hustle when he sees one.  NoProfit Moffatt also used to brag about being friendly with some JRI insiders.  Of course :: once the dead bodies hit the news Moffatt silently purged his web presence of all reference to Death Ray and his evil minions.  Because he’s a cowardly bitch who is going to get his … but that’s a story for another day.

So Hartle :: like Josh and Megan :: comes to JRI with a background in the dubious.  But unlike the Fredricksons :: Hartle hasn’t been pre LGAT’ed by Death Ray.  And what is Greg’s primary responsibility at JRI?  Six Sigmaing the LGAT process to ensure a 99.99% upsell rate?  Nope.  Drum roll please ….. Marketing!

Greg is out for himself :: he’s not under the delusion that a job at JRI is about trying to save the world.  He wants to line his own pockets with money that belongs to others :: and he wants to increase his standing inside the world of scammers.  He’s NOT brainwashed :: he’s eyes wide open.  So on July 25th when he watched Colleen Conaway fall to her death … he should have immediately QUIT to save his own ass instead of pulling out his iPhone and tweeting this insanity

“Just witnessed a woman jump several stories down onto pure concrete. I gotta say it was disturbing. I’m sending her my love right now.”

… and then participating in the dreadful cover up that followed.  But he didn’t quit :: a stupid fucking decision that he was likely regretting when tried to escape the Death Lodge during the 5th round :: only to have Daddy call him back inside where he promptly puked his douchey little guts out.

After a long and exhaustive investigation :: the State of Arizona decided to charge James Arthur Ray with three counts of Manslaughter :: the most aggressive charge available.  Each charge carries a maximum sentence of 10 years :: but if the State can prove the offense was “aggravated” :: then the sentence is bumped up to 12.5 years.

The list of possible aggravating circumstances is found in the Arizona Revised Statutes § 13-701(D).  Prove any two factors on the list “beyond a reasonable doubt” to the “trier of fact” {aka the jury} :: and you’ve got yourself an aggravated felony.  On February 16th the County Attorney filed its Allegation of Aggravating Circumstances with the court.

Item 1The presence of an accomplice

BOOM!!! Greg :: Megan :: and Josh … THAT’S YOU DIPSHITS!!!  Let’s have a little chit chat :: just the four of us …

Listen to me ladies:

The State intends to PROVE that you were involved.  What do you think they are going to do once they are done proving that?  Send the info out in their annual Christmas letter?  No!  They are going to stick it to you for being party to a triple homicide. And if you’ve added to your problems by perjuring yourself in the same jurisdiction where you’ll be tried :: then you are Capital -F- fucked.

Your evil d-bag overlord immediately started moving funds around :: and put a cool $1 Million dollars on deposit with a top notch criminal defense firm.  What kind of defense firm can you afford?  My guess is that you can’t afford a lawyer at all.  Which means you’ll be using a Public Defender :: god bless um :: but with the ridiculous amount of evidence that has piled up … you’ll be forced into taking a plea bargain … and ALL THREE of you will do jail time.  You’ll be FELONS :: you will no longer be allowed to vote or participate in civic affairs :: it will be all but impossible to find a job :: and you’ll be stigmatized with the shame of this event for the rest of your pathetic little lives.

Or you can TALK :: right fucking now.  My educated robot guess is that if one {or all} of you spill your guts :: tell the investigators EVERYTHING you know :: you might still be spared.  Maybe you can recover from this disaster.  The County would rather not have this debacle go to trial :: it’s going to be an expensive pain in the ass :: and Arizona {much like Daddy Death Ray} is bankrupt.  Each of you knows enough to bury this bastard right now :: to force him and his fancy lawyers to take a plea bargain.

Help the victims :: help the families :: help yourselves.

When is NOW the right time to grow some balls?

>> bleep bloop

258 thoughts on “Aggravating Accomplices”

  1. If Salty’s plea isn’t convincing enough, remember this….

    Bubba has been sitting in prison for a long time.
    Bubba is lonely.
    Bubba is waiting for new company.
    If you’re white, middle class, and never been to a real prison before, your chances of getting raped are damn near 100%.

    Save your sweet little ass. Talk now.

    1. Please, no prison rape jokes, peeps. It’s a horrible thing to gloat over, it turns you into the thing you hate. Victimizing is not cool, even for the sleazebags. You can become dangerously close to thinking like them.

      1. Especially since Salty’s post was so convincing I’M going to confess! And I’ve never even been to Arizona

      2. It wasn’t a joke. If you go to the link, you’ll read about the horrors of prison rape. It’s prevalence and acceptance by the inmates and prison staff is one of the hidden secrets (and shame) of our Criminal Justice System.

        Death Ray is going to get the best defense lawyers his stolen money can buy. Death Ray’s flunkies aren’t going to be so lucky.

        They should talk to prosecutors.

        1. Oh, bullshit. If it wasn’t a joke you wouldn’t call yourself “Sweet Dick James.”

          Yeah, they should talk. And you should get your head out of your high horse’s ass.

  2. Just to add to the bizarre nature of people who follow this stuff, I mentioned to a New Agey friend of mine “Have you seen Death Rays newest tweets?”

    He says, “Huh, who?”

    “The Secret?”

    “Oh, never heard of it.”

    “Guy that killed a bunch of people in a sweatlodge?”

    “Oh yeah that guy”

    I ramble on about this nonsense he’s tweeting about, and the fact that his channeler claimed they were having so much fun they stayed on their “quest”, I gave some pretty convincing evidence that they were not “having fun on a vision quest”. And he says,

    “Well I guess it’s different for each person.”

    (Now I know this friend of mine believes all the new agey nonsense so his brain is about to explode with how to handle that this is pretty convincing evidence that his life philosophy is made of shit, and results in pointless death and a lack of compassion for human suffering which “all happens by choice” in the New Age Land)

    So I babble on and my friend can’t help but add (just to be sure he’s contributing)…

    “But you are the universe my dear. We are all just energy, we go back out into the universe”

    These philosophies seem to impair peoples ability to understand the reality that there is human suffering, since the goal is to convince people that suffering is an illusion and we choose everything that happens to us. So people respond to tragic deaths by saying, “Ah they went back to the energy source because they wanted to.”

    That’s a disturbing response.

    It really concerns me.

    Would people with this philosophy risk their own life to save others? Why care about human life, try to save others from disaster, if it’s all “just energy” and people have already decided their own fate?

    You don’t. You just, eat a sandwich while people die.

    1. That’s exactly what The Secret was designed to do – kinda brain-wash lite. It’s the whole new age movement too, but the Secret turned it into a formula. Statements concepts that don’t concur with the philosophy simply run off them like water off a duck’s back.

      I watched my nearest and searest bullishly defend Ray after the death lodge, and then as the details of Colleen Conaway’s death emerged, that broke through the wall. It broke through my wall too. I always thought guys like Ray were just stupid wankers getting rich by talking bullshit.

      All of them are far more evil than I thought. Ray is just the only one of them so far whose character has been exposed by events. The rest would do the same, only maybe a bit more tactfully.

  3. the JRI flunkies knew how to shred papers at JRI as this is not their first rodeo,
    many others had been hurt, Colleen had died, and they had all been a part of covering those details up.
    so they automatically started covering up for the death lodge thinking they would get away with it, but a few months later there are criminal charges.
    so that is a different ballgame.
    those JRI flunkies will soon realize that james ray is going to hang them out to dry just like he is trying to hang the angel valley of death.
    they are next.
    but once things turn into a criminal case its time to stop covering up and come clean, as getting busted for the coverup can result in even more time.

    1. @bristol,

      I totally agree that James Arthur Ray would absolutely hang the others out to dry. Megan, the operations director, said in her interview she was in charge of these events. Doh!

      Do you think James Arthur Ray’s attorneys are going to seize on that? Oh yeah!! Blame shift, blame shift, blame shift!

      This is going to be UG-LY!!

  4. I hope they (The Frederickson’s etc.) also read about Ex-NBA player Jayson Williams who was acquitted of charges of manslaughter, when he shot and killed his limo driver, but he got 5 YEARS for trying to COVER IT UP! That was a one time slip of the finger accident. Yours is years of pushing people to the same end. Wake the F up, your situation is exponentially more dire.

    There was only one victim involved in his case. There are three in yours if not a possible fourth down the line. Think about that you slime ball co-conspirators. I for one hope you stay on the path you are taking because I have a feeling the prosecution has something up its sleeve for you. It is going to come, you were so pathetically and obviously deceptive during your “free talk” that you pretty much buried yourself. Like the Droid says, it is time to talk and talk fast.

    Reality is going to slap you in the face very, very soon. I for one can’t wait to see it happen.

    1. @DO ::

      Yep! I’ll also add that along with being a foolish accident rather than a predictable long term pattern of abuse :: Jayson Williams:

      a) Could afford a good lawyer
      b) Was a pretty likable guy
      c) Was a hell-of-a rebounder

      Where as these three dipshits are:

      a) Lawyerless
      b) Belligerently unsympathetic
      c) Suck at rebounding

  5. My “educated” guess is (and it is educated unlike most of you) Greg, Megan and Josh have nothing more to cough up information wise or monetarily. Being poor bastards (like most of you here) makes them of little or no interest to “The Man”

    Plus, Magic Eight Ball (which is seldom wrong) says…

    The evil doers of our justice system will bleed DeathRay of all assets (taking care of their own) and let him go about his merry way with a minimum sentence and/or probation. That way the civil suits can spawn and get their shot at any leftovers in hiding and more importantly future earnings.

    I got a crisp C note (that’s $100 for those of you with college degrees) here says my dream comes true SD… what say you?

        1. At least I’m not pulling a bunch of cryptic shit out of my own ass. For the record, I didn’t give you the “thumbs down”. Troll away.

        2. @AnnAustin sweetie you gave me much more than a gutless thumbs down. You replied to my post… thank you very much.

        3. Whether SD is right or Tiga is right about the outcome, it doesn’t make Greg, Megan and Josh any less of a bunch of bitches.

    1. Oh my gawd….did you study the Ramens….a C note has to do with Ramen noodles….I love Ramen Noodles…..I can make anything with Ramen Noodles…the gift came from the universal mine….I am so happy that I finally met my intellectual equal!!!

      C (which is also iTalian and spanish for yes…yes…I am multitingual…a cunning linguist) I got your back sister…I went to sChool too…graduated sumo cum loudly (i spat on the magna’s..over there.. magna….spit….another one there…spit)….what’s your Alfa Mocker (no that’s not a car for the mentil migets in the room…that means nourishing mother in Leton terms..I speak fluid Leton)….I don’t like to blow my own nose…butt…I gave the commiserate speech for my graduating class….so I no what it’s like to have a big brain….ohhh calgon…take me away….

      You and I sister are part of a spatial class of edjucated people…to have the nawledge we have…and to be able to shout those immortal words….”With great mental prowess….comes great responsibility”. It’s something that Mental imbeciles will never no.

      sing…the wheels on the bus go round and round….round and round…

      I’m very tired…and my head hurts again…

      PS – great post salty dude…loved the play on words…

    2. I wouldn’t worry about Tiga.

      Those who claim to be “intellectual giants,” are almost always “emotional train wrecks.”

      I am curious about what her dream is though. She didn’t clarify between that and her magic eight ball.

    3. @Tiga: I can tolerate your opinion whether I agree or not (without giving it a thumbs down), however, you attached unnecessary, hostile insults to your comment. What reaction did you possibly expect?


      “Educated unlike most of you” and
      “Being poor bastards (like most of you here)”

      You’ve either insulted or offended the sensibilities of every reader with that inane diatribe.

      Really, why are you even here? After you vomited that verbal feces, who would even be remotely receptive to anything you said, regardless of its merit? Answer: nobody. You might as well find a dark closet, walk inside, and start expressing yourself. Your winter coat would be more interested in your comments than anyone here.

      You’ve blown it. You might want to find another venue.

      1. @Carl ::

        Agreed. That was some ridiculous bullshit. Aside from the pointless insults directed at everyone and no one :: I failed to see the “educated” “point” she was trying to make.


        I think you might have misPelled a couple of things.

        1. @Tiga: Save your pretentious enlightenment references for those who need it (perhaps yourself). It doesn’t matter if it was baiting, or anything else. I could, but won’t, call you “cryptic,” because that could imply the possibility of depth or underlying substance. All I see is someone humoring themself and being summarily disregarded by all.

        2. “Anyone who criticizes the Guru, the cult or its dogma is attacked on a personal level. ” – your link

          “My “educated” guess is (and it is educated unlike most of you)…. Being poor bastards (like most of you here)” – your words

          I would add to that….butt…it’s very succinct….

        3. @Tiga ::

          Are you trying to make a point? Or are you just a troll? Please state your point if you have one.

          You started off with personal attacks … people don’t like that. I don’t think you’re going to win a Rhodes Scholarship in Social Science for your “People don’t like being attacked” thesis.

          If you’re suggesting that I’m some sort of cult leading guru myself … then that is just weird. Not only do people regularly :: and vehemently :: disagree with me here … but they often threaten to kill me or worse. Not exactly a text book example of group think.

          If you have nothing to say :: then say nothing.

        4. Tiga – have you considered that maybe the list located at isn’t the end all be all ‘cult identifier’ list?

          You know there’s a difference between a baseless personal attack and a critical evaluation of someones response? Just as there’s a difference between physically hitting someone for revenge vs self-defense?

          Don’t you think you’re ‘experiential attacks’ require context? (Just as hitting someone physically requires context so as to decide if it was self defense or otherwise?).

          The context of your original attack was just a baseless attack @ AnnAustin.

          What did you expect from her? A completely unemotional response?

          “Oh, someone just attacked me personally for no particular reason. That’s cool.”

          You know Tiga, the Milgram Experiment also worked on people who were unsuspecting.

          What do you want, an applause cause you can conduct a social experiment on unsuspecting individuals?

          Well shit! Why didn’t you just say so??? You’re so smart to take advantage of a natural emotional tendency in a human! WOW!

          *starts a slow clap*

          *stops clapping after realizing no one is joining*

        5. “You started off with personal attacks … people don’t like that.”

          That’s real rich coming from you Salty LOL

        6. “I don’t think you’re going to win a Rhodes Scholarship in Social Science for your “People don’t like being attacked” thesis.”

        7. ““You started off with personal attacks … people don’t like that.”

          That’s real rich coming from you Salty LOL”

          LOLZ!!! OMGZ!!!!! ROLFCOPTER!!!

          Or maybe not.

        8. @Tiga: This isn’t really the best place to work out your mental health issues. I encourage you to seek a mental health professional and find an outlet that won’t expose your spontaneous outbursts to further ridicule.

        9. The fact that you feel compelled to keep posting/responding is the most interesting and revealing aspect. OCD? I wonder

        10. Tiga wants attention, any attention, Here you go, Tiga, narcissistic supply.
          A two-way street, this exposure thing. Double exposure?

  6. Hartle should realise his choice is either fess up, or bank on Ray’s “tragic accident” defense holding up in court.

    Unfortunately, Ray’s defense seems to rest entirely on the premises that:

    * what happened was unpredictable
    * they could not possibly have noticed anything was wrong until it was too late
    * Ray and staff are not accountable for what participants chose to do freely, and
    * Ray and staff did all they could once they realised what had happened.

    Unfortunately for Hartle, the prosecution has more than 100 winesses to blast each one of those out of the water, as well as statements from Meg and Josh which only serve to dig the hole deeper.

    And twittering about a participant’s death without realising who it was is not going to go down especially well with the jury, is it Greg? Especially if you are claiming you had no prior warnings.

    1. I don’t know if the prosecution will take this line, but death ray’s lawyers and meg and josh are always spouting on about how they were adequately prepared, coz they had hoses and tarps and towels ready for people when they came out.

      But actually they are in fact thereby admitting that they fully intended to cook people. They fully expected people to come out, get hosed, collapse and curl up in the fetal position on the tarps, and get wrapped in nice towels while they enjoy a nice out of body experience.

      Perfectly normal, just like any sweat lodge.

      C. Yorgey just put up this interview with an Angel Valley staff person.

  7. Someone was “following” me on Twitter so I scanned her followers/followings and found JoshF. (Then blocked her.)

    Salty Droid,have you read his Bio statement? You gotta wonder.

    “Combating alien robot hordes since 1980.”

    1. Just a nerdy video game reference, I think. Not much of a surprise given his Nerd Herd/Geek Squad history with Best Buy. I doubt J. Fred is really aware of the Droid.

      @Cartman–brilliant post with all the loose associations and humorous “spelling”.

    2. Mos-def just a geek reference :: a pretty good one actually.

      But you can feel safe betting a couple of “C-notes” that J-Fred is good and aware of what’s going on here. He read this post … didn’t you J-Fred??

      Time for a change of strategy guy :: my email is right there. Hit me up … I’ll help you right the ship before you doom yourself forever.

      1. Although the connection was intended as a humorous “what if,lol”, rest assured JoshF and the rest of Death Ray’s harem of beeyatches are tossing back and forth at night knowing the Droid et al. are hanging up all their blood-stained laundry for the world to see.

  8. Just got a Death Ray Google Alert for a week old post on the forum :: must be our own commenting @Hippo …

    She’s slightly more polite than I’m going to be when I get back to my computers and off of this dreadful netbook. Given her direct culpability :: I’d say the Big O has been given more than enough time to respond in the morally appropriate way.

    Hippo FTW!

    1. Dear Mr. Salty:

      Thank for the nice compliment. Yes, that was me, and you notice the response of deafening silence I got.

      You have to be pretty polite on Oprah’s website because the Harpo Secret Police will delete anything that “does not promote the type of atmosphere” blah, blah, blah.

      A couple of years ago, Oprah had a two-day interview with Tom Cruise which was an enabler/apologist love-fest, completely softball and ridiculous.

      I wrote some critical posts–no threats, no swearing, but practically everything I wrote was removed.

      So when I made this recent post about James Ray, I figured they would reject it out of hand–I was very surprised they allowed it at all.

        1. @detached observer Good for you. Did you respond to cowabinga? He/she is the only one really interested in the facts of the case.I was going to respond,but just can’t bring myself to register at the big O. Hey,that’s what Indians in Oklahoma call a
          toilet! As in,”I have to use the O”

      1. @Hippo:
        When you do it like you did – I guess they *could* delete it, but you gave them no reason to, and offered every benefit of the doubt for Oprah. Nicely done. Seriously.

        1. Gosh, thank you for all the accolades, guys.

          I am quite sure that we will never hear anything from Oprah. I just wanted to get it on the message board so that people could see it.

          I doubt that it will do any good, and they can always delete it and claim it was never there. But if they try to pretend that nobody ever wrote to them asking for a follow-up to “The Secret” or James Ray, at least a few people will know that isn’t true.

          With great wealth and power comes great responsibility.

          Oprah has dropped the ball spectacularly in this regard. Not just with “The Secret,” but also with Jenny McCarthy and the autism controversy, Suzanne Sommers and her holistic cancer cure, and I’m sure there are tons of others.

          I don’t actually watch Oprah’s show, so I am sure there are quite a few topics I am completely unaware of.

      2. @Jean

        No I didn’t respond because I assumed it would get deleted and I didn’t check back for a few days. Once I did I realized my mistake since it was buried immediately by personal beliefs in religion etc. But I am inspired by Hippo so I am going to give it a go again but post something more thorough and ask that religion not get into the discussion.

        1. To Detached Observer:

          Another thing you could do is reply to my post and bump it up to the top so more people will see it.

          I was going to suggest to Jean to do the same, but I understand her hesitation to even register for posting privileges.

          I only registered because I wanted to protest Oprah’s dreadful Tom Cruise interview from two years ago.

          1. @Hippo,

            Well I bumped your post and added one of my own. Too bad though the moderator allowed me to post twice but when I added other details about the event on a couple others. The post never materialized, but oh well. I feel it’s worth a shot. A woman on the Rick Ross forum posted details about JRI’s billing strategy and mentioned Oprah needing to be taken to task over who she promotes. I added that on the Oprah site also but it has yet to show up.

            I guess the moderator wants to keep their job.

  9. hey, you critical negative whiners, Oprah here.
    I am not commenting on James Ray as my lawyers told me since I made him famous, I better keep my mouth shut, so I don’t get sued and wreck my own reputation. Its a criminal case, so better stay out of it, right?

    So all I have to do is ignore anything, and someday say a platitude about condolences for the familes.
    That way my Oprah sheeple will forget that I Oprah was the person who actually made Ray famous. Who knows, maybe Colleen Conaway first saw James Ray on Oprah.

    But its not hard to do, just live in a bubble made of money and don’t think about the results of your actions on your TV show.
    Its the victims own fault anyway, they created their own deaths due to their consciousness, that is what I teach on my TV show everyday.
    Except that doesn’t apply to pedophile criminals, which I Oprah think should be thrown in jail for life.
    If you believe it you can do it.
    It also helps to have a billion dollars and be world famous on TV.

      1. Weston Kosova and Pat Wingert at Newsweek put this together as the feature story for the June 8,2009 issue.

        @Hippo,you’re so good at contacting publishers,maybe they would be interested in doing a piece on Oprah’s promotion of Death Ray.

        1. To Jean:

          Do you really think that I’m good at contacting publishers? I have no special skills, and I’m an average writer, at best.

          Are you referring to my conversations with the National Enquirer over the Katie Holmes fake “marathon” run from a couple of years ago?

          I can’t imagine how you’d know about that unless you read the Free Katie board. I will admit I had high hopes for that article, but it did not materialize.

          They were interested in the story, but would not publish unless I was a Cruise/Holmes employee and could verify that what I was saying was 100% accurate.

        2. I’m referring to getting Lee Kuan banned from NYMag! And you’re still going after him on other forums. I don’t know anything about the Katie Holmes thing but it sounds interesting.

        3. To Jean:

          I think you have me mixed up with somebody else. I did post on THIS board about LeeKuan, but I haven’t gone after him on any other boards.

          The Katie Holmes thing–I got obsessed with the Tom Cruise craziness a while back. That entire relationship was very suspect,the pregnancy was suspect, and somebody even started a message board called Free Katie.

          A couple of years after Tom and Katie got together, they decided to have Katie run in the New York Marathon. Coincidentally, Tom had a movie premiere that very night in New York, and we cynics figured that the marathon run was just an attempt to draw attention to “Lions For Lambs.”

          Katie’s run was very suspicious–she had long pants dragging on the ground, yet the hems did not get dirty or frayed, she didn’t sweat much, she wasn’t wearing an appropriate sports bra, and nobody saw her at all for the first 22 miles. Additionally, she went to Tom’s premiere in high heels the same day! I wrote to the National Enquirer telling them that I was quite sure it was a hoax, and detailed all of the reasons that the members of our board had come up with as to why. A reporter was very interested, but wanted verification from a Cruise insider, which of course none of us are.

        4. To Jean:

          With regard to the autism controversy, I just heard on the news that a class action suit filed by parents of autistic children was thrown out because they could not prove any connection between vaccines and autism.

        5. Hippo – “They were interested in the story, but would not publish unless I was a Cruise/Holmes employee and could verify that what I was saying was 100% accurate.”

          I find it very interesting that National Enquirer, occupying one of the lowest rungs on a ladder that could still be referred to as “professional journalism,” and known throughout history for their love of sensationalism, requires more fact-checking and verification of what they publish than Salty or most anyone else on this blog cares to bother with.

          Kinda says a lot, don’t you think?

          Since this message contains a common sense statement, I anticipate it will soon be reduced to negative status.

          And it will just prove my point.

          Just think about this before you click that negative link. There are some powerful truths being exposed here that all become totally ignorable and defensible to the “enemy” because it’s all surrounded with innuendo, insinuation and hysteria.

          Too bad.

          1. @wambulance / @PoopChute ::

            Welcome back :: just can’t get enough eh? I understand … you hate me … and yet I’m so so awesome.

            There was a story in the New York Times last week about how the National Enquirer might win a Pulitzer for their coverage of the John Edwards thing.


            And how do you know how much fact checking goes on around here? Are you psychic as well as unnecessarily conceded?

        6. Wambulance says too bad, but maybe that a good thing. There are, as they say, many many ways to kill a cat.

          1. @stoic,

            Good point but I have to add a minor correction:

            on THIS blog, in THIS fight, if Salty don’t say it’s the way to kill a cat, it’s somehow an evil attack on Salty to point out a better way, it would seem.

            Believe it or not, I am actually trying to point out some of the OTHER ways — but Salty appears to be pretty outraged whenever ANYONE does that — if it at all contradicts what SD proclaims.

            Kind of like some of the dirtbags I was hoping he was going to be able to help shut down.

            SD’s comment that I hate him is a great example. Where did I EVER say that? Shhheeeeeeeeeeeeit, Bozo Bear! I think the circuits are humming a little bit paranoid. All I did was question tactics that quite literally are sending away loads of valuable contributors who could be contributing facts up the ass that would finally see the light of day here, because the people with those fact who could bring them forward read through this and see that bringing them forward will make no difference whatsoever because this can’t possibly be taken seriously.

            1. @PoopChute, You mioght want to look a bit farther than the end of your nose before claiming that SD gets outraged when someone suggests a different way of looking at things. I have suggested that there might well be other explanations for a notorious scammer’s (Death Ray’s) behavior than what was generally accepted as consensus here, but saw no particularly emotionally-charged responses from SD or anyone else. Certainly nothing resembling outraged. Not everybody agreed (I’m used to that, and wouldn’t trust it if they did), but to a person, they argued their point logically and dispassionately.

              BTW – ” humming a little paranoid?” – Might want to be careful applying diagnoses to people you’ve never met. Even old Sigmund caught flak for doing that with Miss Lucy. Can’t help you in your own attempts to be taken seriously, IMO.

        7. SD aka DickCheney:

          I don’t hate you. And I wonder what would make you call me a Poop shooter…


          What I hate is people who are so obviously against the entire concept of freedom of expression and the press that they would burn that to the ground to make things fit their own neat definition of how things should be.

          I think we’ve found Dick’s hidden bunker. You operate with the obvious belief that the ends justify the means whatever means it takes. Kind of like what got us mired in Iraq.

          In the name of taking up a very honorable fight — cleaning out the filthy dangerous thieves that so overload the market these days and NEED some serious wiping down — you utilize their same tactics (question me and you hate me, for example), then digress to dictating what people should charge for things, what people should or shouldn’t say or do with their own publications…

          Oprah is a great example. I think she’s an amazingly dangerous piece of moldy cheese that stinks every time she hits the air. But — there is a thing called a REMOTE. You can CHANGE THE CHANNEL. You don’t have to buy her magazine. She doesn’t portray herself as an expert in anything.

          I know, I know — you might say YOU never said anything either way. But, like Oprah, your guests here are those leaving comments. When you let them spew this stuff without pointing out where they are wrong — you BECOME another Oprah.

          Condemn her. Don’t watch her. Boycott her advertisers. You could easily get me helping. But, tell me she has no right to be on the air and I will be putting my efforts against the REAL enemy — YOU.

          I feel Rush Limbaugh is a fat gas bag dangerous waste of airwaves. I wish he would go away. But, tell me he has no right to broadcast and — again — I’ll be putting my efforts against the REAL enemy — YOU.

          I applaud your goals, you idiot. I support what I THINK you are doing here. I question how you’re going about it but, the moment someone tells me you must be stopped — I’ll be taking my arms up against the REAL enemy — THEM.

          You are an interesting phenomenon. I keep hoping you are as smart as you say. Then you continue to prove my hopes are maybe misguided.

          Because you fail to see that, to attain a lot of your own stated goals, we would have to remove the very freedom that allows you to do what you’re doing here.

          And — did you really mean to spell that “concede?”

          1. @wambulance,

            There’s a saying, “If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.” I speaking of myself, not being one of the big dogs, and thinking I should stay on the porch.

            However, I do want to make one comment about Oprah. She may SAY she’s not an expert in anything, but her shows are highly manipulative. When she presents a topic, and claims to show “both sides,” she often has the topic heavily skewed in favor of one point of view, as I pointed out in another post on this thread.

            Oprah KNOWS that she has hundreds of thousands of lemmings who will do whatever she tells them to. Now, you may say, that is the fault of the lemmings for being stupid, and that is a valid point.

            However, those of us who are not the sharpest pencils in the box may need protection from highly manipulative people.

            Okay, going back to the porch. Jean, where’s the lemonade? Us old ladies need to keep up our strength.

            1. @Hippo,

              So — you don’t know how to CHANGE A FUCKING CHANNEL? Man — I hate to say it but it sounds to me like a lot of people here are more than willing to admit to total sheep-like behavior as they belittle that very behavior.

              It’s NOT presented as news. You aren’t ordered by law to watch it…so don’t. I don’t and…get this…I feel fine anyway!

              Ha! I beat Oprah!

              Sorry, Hippo and SD and everyone here but…believe it or not…the toughest thing about TRUE freedom of the press is it goes for EVERYONE. For EVERY VIEW. Even the most disgusting distasteful of views.

              And whether you agree with them or not.

              Take that away and you have no more America.

              I think you make EXTREMELY valid points about Oprah. They are all completely VALID reasons for…

              1. Never watching it
              2. Never buying anything from a sponsor who supports it
              3. Telling anyone and everyone you know how stupid it is to watch it.

              Otherwise you speak against freedom and I have to proclaim you the enemy.

            2. To PoopChute:

              It’s not about changing the channel. I don’t even watch Oprah’s damn show!

              It’s about protecting vulnerable people from predatory people.

        8. To Wambulance:

          What they told me may not have been the truth.

          I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with NE reporter Bob Hartlein, going over all the inconsistencies with Katie’s marathon run. Several people who actually run marathons clued me in as to how a person could actually do this, and I thought it would make a good story.

          They might have been willing to publish a different story about a different celebrity with that amount of “facts,” and had a different reason for not publishing the Cruise story.

          One reason is that Tom used to sue ANYONE who printed anything negative about him. The marathon story was not that “juicy” and perhaps they felt that it was not worth it.

          You’re making a huge generalization based on one incident. You could be right, but there are lots of other possibilities.

          1. @Hippo,

            Maybe. Maybe not. Salty just said maybe so — thus the possibility of an award for NE? When has THAT ever happened before?

            It’s not just because Cruise sues. They ALL sue when it’s not a story their publicists created for them.

            If I was wrong — maybe it’s because the “insider” they were looking for is the publicist.


            Still — just as you pointed out here…a possible generalization about one incident is a LOT of what goes on here in almost every comment and post.

            I’m just saying….

            The FACTS can overcome virtually ANYTHING. FACTS. F-A-C-T-S. PROVABLE facts.

            You can sue anyone for anything but if the person doing the suing loses, NE would just get more headlines and sell more copies. They would LOVE that. They would NOT love losing such a suit.

            1. @wambulance,

              Look, I don’t have any answers. The John Edwards baby scandal is HUGE. Katie Holmes only running four miles of a 26-mile marathon, then claiming she ran the whole thing, is extremely boring by comparison.

              All I know is what I was told, and there is no guarantee that any of it was the truth.

          2. Salty changed my id. I chose a personna. I set it trusting his statement that “anonymous” is ok and he is now MANIPULATING that and CHANGED my posts to reflect a different one.


            The droid goes berzerk.

            And now refuses to post my comments in a blog he proclaims is unmoderated.

            Guess it’s time to call National Enquirer.

            Shit. All hopes are dashed for THIS mess.

            1. @PoopChute, changing the name on your comments so everyone knows they’re from the same person doesn’t remove your anonymity at all.

              Unless that’s your real name. Which would explain a lot. Does your mom call you Poopie?

              It does keep you from pretending you aren’t the same person who “left” last week to go fight for justice or whatever.

      2. I just didn’t want to register at Oprah at the moment.She just really works my nerve. But for the cause we are furthering here,I will darn sure do it.She definitely needs to feel public pressure for reckless promotion of any scumbag de jour.

        1. To Jean:

          Good for you! Just be careful what you write. ALL COMMENTS are moderated, and they will refuse to publish your comment if they deem it too “negative.” You don’t have to swear, attack other posters, or make threats. If they don’t like the tone of it, you won’t see it get on the message board.

          That’s why I complimented Oprah on her handling of the James Frey incident.

        2. @Detached Observer and Hippo I’d support you if I was willing to register at Oprah.

          Jean–I don’t think I could bring myself to register at Oprah, EVER. My M-i-L gave something to my S-i-L and me and said, “It’s an Oprah pick!” Like that should carry some weight with us. I don’t remember what it was, but I tried to keep the eye-rolling to myself. My aversion to Oprah is so bad that if I find out something is an “Oprah Pick” I have to reconsider whether or not I really want it. Sure Oprah has more money than I do since I’m not a billionaire and stuff, but I don’t get why she gets to be an arbiter of taste. I want stuff that I want. Not stuff that Oprah says we should all want. Screw her.

          That Newsweek article about Oprah’s quack guests is really telling.

          dismounting from soap box now…

        3. To AnnAustin:

          I understand completely. Oprah makes me sick too.

          Here’s another way to look at it that maybe isn’t so nauseating: Oprah is richer than God and can buy whatever she wants, regardless of the cost.

          Therefore, if she really likes a moderately-priced item, it might really be good.

          So the item might be worth taking a look at on that basis.

          Here’s another point: If I am so grossed-out by Oprah and recoil from everything she recommends, she’s influencing me, and maybe you could say I am being “controlled” a little bit.

      3. …and I find your point about the Enquirer really interesting, Salty. You’re saying they might get a Pulitzer for their coverage. This proves my point, Droid-o. NO ONE took Enquirer seriously before they started taking their reporting more seriously and CHECKING THE FUCKING FACTS.

        Blip bloop…fizzzzzzzzzzzz…….

    1. @ Hippo

      Hey I tried again and just posted something on Oprah’s board. Of course my dream would be for it to get to a producer, have him/her read deeper into the slime ball and maybe consider addressing it but I can only dream right?

      Here is the post on Oprah’s message board I did just a little bit ago.

      1. @Detached observer,

        Thank you! This brings it to the top again, so hopefully more people will see it.

        I doubt that anything will come of it, but at least we can say we tried.

  10. Go @Hippo!

    SD, good post. However, appealing to the likes of Greggie, Joshie, and Meggie to do the right thing is like appealing to a python not to eat a hamster. I think they have invested themselves so deeply in the lies of their guru that it is now their nature to protect him above saving their own sorry asses. The darkness in them is appalling.

    I hope they prove me wrong, if only to save the families of the victims from the circus that the Death Ray’s trial is going to be.

  11. By the way @_cartman_ love the comedy, please teach me how to access the universal mine. I could use some of that mojo…

    1. @Dave,

      I think, to access the universal mine, you have to first attract it. I’m not sure, but I recall seeing a lot of people in mines with helmets on that have those flashlights on top. That MIGHT be what attracts the Universal mine to you. Then of course you have to work out the tidbits of gold with an axe made of your intentions.

      Or some shit like that.

      Hey! We just created a manifestation mining course! Maybe we can get on Oprah!

      1. This is VERY interesting.

        NOW Salty has changed my chosen personna for all these posts. Despite the promise, when you post, that anonymous is ok, he’s not following along with his own rules. I changed nothing. I posted comments on this post as Wambulance and HE — SALTY — has decided to change that all back to PoopChute.

        Thought you would all like to know.

        I guess logic DOES threaten him. And I was hoping he might actually like it.

        So, Salty — you’ve PROVEN the extent of your “fact-checking”…you know how to look at IP addresses on a blog. I hate to burst your attorney bubble but that’s about as reliable as shit for a hammock. Ever hear of wifi hotspots? Ever hear of shared IPs?

        Bzzzzzzzt. Fizzzzzzzzzzzz! Again.

        And another door to people coming forward and helping with your cause is closed.

    1. Yeah…Mofo (that’s how he refers to himself..go figure) is running around in his RV & 3 days ago began promoting Kern’s “list control”. If you help the MOFO win, he will donate $25M (M is a Ramen noodlebowl representing 1000..shoutout to Tiga, BTW i’m having a big brain party..your’e invited) in cash to a childrens hospital.

      Hold on though….If you buy “list control” from Andros, you get her SMTB “starter program” (1K Value..personally I’m waiting for SMTB 2.0, which she announced a couple weeks ago…mama didn’t raise no fool)…and without a shred of a doubt this program is’s “proof”….

      don’t know why I get best ideas@ nite (because I was born @19:23?)came up w/new video concept inspired when I get inspired watch out world 5:13 AM Mar 11th via web – Maria Andros

      okay then….she didn’t log in as any of her twitter personas, and as expected, she received ZERO accolades from that twit (message to andros -I am Mentorlly extraordinaire and can Guarantee you 10000 times that amount….Maria, just imagine having 10000 times as many positive feedback…it’s unheard of…it wobbles the mind)…

      Don’t worry….I still think you spatial (fuck…when did I start typing with an accent)!…just one question…How is it that you announce weeks before about your revolutionary new SMTB 2.0…butt…this life changing “dream” came only days ago?…

      ..Andros kept her “Frank Kern (list control)” vid on the DL…only mailing out to her list…

      Lets see…how many people on her list…oh yeah 35M on her list, and 179 views in four days…I definitely would buy from her…she was able to “control” her list very well.

      How on Dirt (shut up…that’s the correct sCientifical name for our planet) did she manage to keep a statistically impossible amount of individuals from opening her email?…it’s truly magical…

      Of the 179 views (which is truly unheard of are there even that many people on the planet…I think not!), ~35 are mine (the view map under stats shows Canada as number one most viewed area)…

      My ~35 views made Canada the most viewed area (relatively speaking)…which would indicate that aside from my “views”…second most views were in the USA (<35) and the rest were spread from Herzegovina to Bangladesh [safety note: kids please wear seat-belts…so if you are ever in a car won't Bangladesh and Herze your govina…[note to self…that's not funny…how do you think people in Herzegovina feel…sorry…my bad]] and all other places where Andros is big…

      And since I am on Andros (metamoronically speaking..not literally), her (and other "brilliant" individuals) are in Washington at UG6 (the secret agents "marketing" underground thingy. I think everyone gets a Walther ppk water gun…and talks all British like).

      The shear (yeah…but…when you read the tips…you'll realize that I didn't use the wrong shear) brilliance of UG6 is being disseminated and leaking into the twitterverse. Even participants who signed an NDA (non-disclosure agreement…well you know…underground 6…secret agents….007…and the rest of the quasi-spy crap) can't keep the "goldmine" of what they are learning to themselves…

      A couple of leaked tidbits from a "dissenter" ….

      Big secret insider tips at #ug6 include tips on how to make a to-do list. Now I understand why I signed an NDA 16 minutes ago via Tweetie"

      "Dr. Mental" first guy's talk was a new-agey Business 101 class. "Have a biz plan, be positive, visualize your success." Come on! #UG6

      Andros thinks this is brilliant stuff….now why doesn't that surprise me…

      SA007 – pssst… fellow secret agents…you have to make a business plan, be positive, and visualize suckcess
      MA – this guy is brilliant….I have a Misters in Busyness & I never learned that…yeah the be positive and visualize success I learned…I’m not stoopid…but that busyness plan….totally cutting edge…
      OSA – yeah it’s fucking great…and there are boneheads who attend Yale…they spend 10’s of thousands and they don’t learn about visualizing….fucking losers…
      MA – Amen to that! And what about the fact that Yale is a lock….Thank you universal for this great learning experience

      ummm okay….WTF….anywho…before I vomit….some trivia….

      Can you guess who is in the picture….look careful at the features of the face….

      and Who is Miro Bezjak…

      1. Cartman–I’d love to come to your big brain party if I wasn’t such a thin-skinned mentil miget.

        So glad that C-note thing is cleared up. That silly BA of mine is such an impediment sometimes. Wouldn’t want to make it worse by pursuing a graduate degree…

        @Carl, Droid and others–thanks for a bunch of the stuff you wrote. I was just done with that b.s. yesterday.

      2. I noticed things are a little dead here today…figure I would take this time for a quick update….

        It appears Andros placed her “frank kern list control” video under “lock and key” for private viewing only…

        Now, only Andros 153 odd friends on Youtube (which includes the 140 odd shills) can now view that “list control” gem (If you are not a “friend” you have to suffer)…maybe you can apply for her youtube “friendship”…if you do well there, maybe you can be grandfathered into her phone friend program…

        soon Andros is going to be the underground “marketer”….and then she won’t let anyone see her videos without an application process…

        For those who didn’t “search” it out when it was missed nothing (and chances are you will live longer)….

        the super secret linkage to the now hidden video can be released (you guys put a shitload of real views on her videos…and are making her head bigger)….

        For those who care (probably no-one here) Franks “list control” is now available…and the price…a predictable $1997…probably $1M (shout out to Tiga with the big brain) in conmissions…..


        mariaandros Frank Kern’s list control now LIVE! even I bought this today! special bonus from me 2
        about 2 hours ago – Maria A. Andros

        I highly doubt you bought it..but even if you did….it only cost you $997…but why would the “marketing” queen need to learn how to make a list, with a highly responsive “35M” list…do you ever consider if your reality, conflicts with your “reality”…apparently not…

  12. This is fucking unfair. Fucking Kern is going to make millions on Monday from his circle jerk buddies. Who has a list. Let’s promote each other. And boycott anyone who mails for Kern. Asswipes.

  13. @Hippo Okay,I reviewed the posts,now I really feel middle-aged. That’s okay,have a seat on the porch and let’s share some more lemonade.

      1. I just ran across this site with varied comments about the Queen of Quackery. This might be a good place for us to make some comments.

        @AnnAustin I quit watching the Queen of Crap in 2003 when she made a comment about never letting a man into your home,or going into his home, unless you are prepared to have sex. Are you kidding? Don’t keep the company of a male friend or a date,but DO give your money and trust to an unvetted,drug addicted,non-credentialed megalomaniac named James Arthur Ray who will hurt you and even kill you if you give him the chance?

        1. Classic sales script there from Oprah, first instill the fear (of being unable to trust your own instincts) then the upsell (trust and buy from this conman who is almost god and has a track record of hurting people)

          Maybe Oprah didn’t know about the track record at the time, but that is the problem with sleazy-type sales, no fact checking.

        2. @Jean D, “The Queen of Quackery” Love that. The episode you mention from 2003 sounds ridiculous. I’ve never really watched her. I’ve really always been at work when she is on. Maybe caught a bit her and a bit there on the rare occasions that I was sick. I’d never stop on her program now. Interesting reading on yelp. I never thought of reviewing a TV show there. People really seem to either love her or hate her. I’m not sure I have anything to add there. My biggest problem with her influence is that she promotes things with such “authority” when it doesn’t really look like she or her producers have really done more than scratch the surface. A shallow, uncritical interview say with Michael Pollan (which one of my friends told me about yesterday) might be beneficial or harmless where a shallow, uncritical interview with JAR or other Secret “teachers” might range from harmless to very harmful depending upon who is watching, how much that person takes Oprah’s fleeting words for the truth and whether they find that subject interesting.

          Hippo–next time I will just buy that Garnet Hill sweater if I’ve decided I want it. Regardless of whether I find out the damn thing also happens to be an Oprah pick. Thanks for some perspective on that.

          1. @AnnAustin,

            I discovered after I had bought a Kashwere robe that it was an Oprah pick. I have to say I agree with her.

            Ditto with Le Mystere bras.

            I don’t think you’re selling your soul if you like the same sweater she likes.

            1. That’s the problem with these seemingly innocuous article of clothing “recommendations” by Oprah. Many people think that they aren’t selling their soul, when in fact they are…one body part at a time. Eventually, the soul will be gone and you’ll only have last year’s wardrobe to show for it. Get out while you can!

  14. “With great wealth and power comes great responsibility.”

    And…if you own a media empire, that’s especially true. You owe it to your trustful viewers to FACT CHECK, exactly the way we trust a restaurant to observe sanitation codes so that people who eat there can do so with reasonable expectation of not having salmonella, E Coli, or rat doo doo in their food.

    1. I agree, but the media mogul Oprah didn’t get to be a media mogul by fact-checking, she got there by delivering what the masses (thats us lot)are prepared to buy.

      She’s very canny businesswoman, she is unlikely to change the strategy that has made her billions. Who willingly kills the goose that lays golden eggs?
      Wising up the consumers (us lot again) who keep her in business makes more sense. With her customer base destroyed or dwindling, she might quit.

      Or perhaps in her old age she might feel a bit of guilt, follow Carnegie et al and endow a few libraries, do more philanthropic good works. Then the next generation might have a shot at seeing through the next generation of this crap.

      1. Oprah plays the role of star-maker, rides the success of her chosen ones, and thereby confirms her own power and position in the hierarchy she built. That the oxymoronic self-help industry is worth 11B a year has a lot to do with her.

        I doubt she’s especially thrilled with anything Ray has done in the last 6 months. Good to see people calling her to account!

      2. To Stoic:

        I think you’re 100% right. I read a couple of articles on James Randi’s excellent skeptic website, one that he himself wrote after appearing on Oprah, and another written by a lady who appeared on an Oprah show about haunted houses.

        Both of these individuals were taking the skeptic point of view, attempting to de-bunk the woo-woo stuff that was being presented.

        I particularly remember the lady saying that Oprah’s people had her seated in the audience, even though she was a guest, and the people on stage were all woo-woo supporters. Oprah addressed the woo-woo people by name, and addressed the skeptic as “Science Lady.”

        So you can see the power differential–the woo-woo people and Oprah get the height advantage, on stage, using first names and getting lots of air time. The scientist is relegated to the lower, audience level, and is addressed as “Science Lady,” and is given minimal air time.

    2. @noodlebowl,

      BZZZZZZZZ! Wrong!

      When you are a media giant you have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY, yes. But it is NOT law and thank God it’s not.

      Who are you to dictate what the media must do? Were you appointed czar of something? Did I miss the coup? Are we no longer a nation with freedom of the press.

      DO YOU HAVE A FUCKING REMOTE CONTROL ON YOUR TV? Or would you prefer one state-run channel on the TV with carefully selected programming to lull you into a non-thinking stupor?

      YOU frighten me. YOU are the kind of people who would willingly throw away freedom because…OH MY GOD! To KEEP freedom you have to THINK and that’s work an’ everything.

      You should find a good dictatorship in a country where you’re comfortable. Then you won’t have to worry about offensive freedoms like freedom of speech and the press, and the nasty requirement that you must think your own shit through in such environments.

      Guess I have to take on the idiots if SD won’t, huh?

      Ghod. I can’t believe how many of you people decry people (HIPPO’s comment that Oprah KNOWS she has millions of sheep followers) who are sheep…but then exhibit so many sheep-like behaviors yourselves.

      Guess that’s the button SD’s pushing.

      If so — it makes all of this far more dangerous than what SD proclaims he is against.

      1. To Wambulance:

        You’re assuming that everyone is smart enough to figure this stuff out, and that simply isn’t true.

        I will repeat what I stated above. Vulnerable people need protection from predatory people.

        You seem to be saying, if a person isn’t smart enough not to do everything that Oprah says, they deserve to die at the hands of one of Oprah’s quacks.

      2. @PoopChute, Dictatorships exist when there is a party in power and no opposition. Now tell me,how much criticism of Oprah is there? I haven’t recognized that anyone wants to limit her free expression. I don’t watch her and don’t care anything about her.That’s not the point.The topic here is her moral and professional responsibility for catapulting James Ray to stardom. She didn’t properly vet him or find out anything about him.For that,she owes an explanation,or at least needs to do something to ease the pain caused to the families of 4 innocent people who believed in this monster, her buddy. Notto mention countless victims who have been injured by him on many levels.

        Your attempts to say Salty Droid is controlling is just ludicrous.And I’m a damn astute judge of people’s intentions and situations.Now what is your real agenda?Is Poop Chute a creative way of calling yourself Ass Hole?

        1. Well said, Jean D.
          Poop Chute is an example of the genus:
          ‘I’m all right Jack, sod everyone else.’

          Which eventually evolves into:
          ‘I’m such a great guy, you should all do as I say’

          which eventually evolves into:
          ‘I’m such a great guy, how could I do wrong’

          which eventually evolves into:
          Death Ray, L Ron, Pol Pot etc, etc, etc.

          There’s still time, PC, to see the light. Dissent is healthy.

    1. @Yakaru, Hey thank you Yakaru.I hadn’t seen that.HThe disgusting tweet from March 12 that I was replying to reads, “It’s these times,in a rushing vibration,words can no longer express the feelings.”

  15. Salty —

    I see you changed my pseudonym. I thought you said ANONYMOUS comments were ok? Why did you do that on ALL my comments? Are you afraid of me and logic? Are you actually AGAINST freedom of the press? Are YOU the enemy?

    I didn’t think so, but now that I see you’ve actually BLOCKED my attempts to comment further, when right above I see you say you do NOT moderate, I now know the truth. You MUST be one of THEM. This whole thing is a farce to bring down your own competitors.

    Wow. What a turnabout.

    Truly disappointed.

    — Alan

    1. You’re right that there’s a worrying trend on this blog poopchute – you’ve just got the wrong one.

      First there was VoiceOfReason/FGCT (another guy who likes pseudonyms.) He had absolutely nothing to say but was convinced that he was somehow breaking news stories that Salty was afraid to cover..that people were listening to him and respected him..etc

      Then Tiga – apparently she’s incredibly intelligent, but we have to take her word for it, because she’s never actually said anything remotely clever

      Then there’s you! I’ve read at least the vast majority of your comments; probably all of them. What have you ever said/done that makes you the champion of the free world? The only original suggestion I’ve read from you is to write to the US Postmaster about scammers. That’s it! Everything else has been pointless, pretentious, self-aggrandising fluff about how you’re standing up in the face of oppression, “facing the enemy”, and saving the world.

      Do you even listen to yourself? What an utterly stupid, pretentious thing to say – “Are you afraid of me and logic…are YOU the enemy?” I ask again: what have you done; what have you said; what qualifies you to go around making silly comments about ‘the enemy?’

      Finally, I really, really resent the sweeping arrogance in your belief that people only ‘vote down’ your posts because they’ve been brainwashed by Salty. Have you considered the possibility that your posts are just not as important as you think they are? I’m giving your comment a thumbs down, and I do so of my own volition – because I find it boring, pretentious, and deluded.

      1. is PoopChute that David Schirmer fart? thats the sort of thing he does all the time that is apart from attending antony robbins events and putting everyone else down while making lameass comments about himself. These guys and their marketing is full of patheticly deluded factoids and when you go seek out the real truth you find the real loser behind them.

        1. Hes one of those people who spend all their time and everyone elses money travelling around getting up people asses because he thinks their success might rub off. Hes just a loser and probably not PoopChute.

  16. Notice the onslaught of disruptive trolling as soon as we began to discuss Oprah in-depth.

    Here are some nice articles that offer reality checks on trolling.

    “And don’t start talking about free speech; the troll’s goal is to shut down speech, to either fill the channel with noise until no one can talk to each other, or to get everyone talking about him instead of the subject at hand. He’s a guy in a coffee shop screaming nonsense over a bullhorn.” (Tiny excerpt from an excellent article.

    5 Ways to Stop Trolls From Killing the Internet

    Culture Jamming

    “In this case, Culture Jamming co-opts the communication medium that that carries a message offensive to the perp’s group or guru.

    CJing tweaks it around so that the discussion venue is co-opted either to carry a pro-guru message or at the very least is filled with boring and confusing noise that distracts from the inside dope that the guru or group doesnt want the public to know.”

    A comment from a Rick Rosser,12906,74327#msg-74327

    From a discussion of another female media power unit

    “Instead of dealing with each disruptor, one by one, it’d be more interesting to find out the role these disruptors play–whether they’re all free agents??

    If so, its an astounding achievement if a business can get so many people enthralled by its product that they freely, independently, and for NO PAY, show up in droves on the single independent website that exists and try to disrupt it–and in such a similar manner–and at such an expenditure of energy and time.

    THere is positive advertising in the form of testimonials–that is familiar to us.

    But how about negative advertising, in the form of disrupting internet discussion venues critical of the product?

    Trolling could be termed negative advertising of sorts. The New Technology has given this a scope and a power that requires our closer scrutiny.

    Take all that BK (or Oprah)troll energy and divert it in worthier direction and we’d have a cure for HIV by now.

    Instead that trolling energy is used to support existing power imbalances, and all that human effort goes to defend an already rich and powerful female entrepreneuse who presents as Just One of the Girls but is patriarchal capitalism—wearing skirts and pantyhose. ”

    Now…lets try and stop talking about trolls and keep the focus on people who who run media empires and by not fact checking, and by taking the easy way and pandering to the lowest common denominator, empower
    snake oil peddlers.

    Martin Luther King did not become great by telling people what they wanted to hear. He told people what they needed to hear.

    That is why he was murdered at a young age, and did not become rich
    and a media tycoon.

    You become a media tycoon by telling people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

    Dante put it thus: We were not made to live like mere beasts, in comfort and in ease, but to pursue virtue and knowledge.’

    1. @Noodle ::

      Interesting points … and links. I liked this bit from the Cracked article …

      “Cracked forums are consistently less angry and/or insulting than the article comments. Why? Because when you show up on the forums, you find yourself in an existing community, looking at a long list of threads and posts that establish the culture. Just a few minutes of reading gives you a sense of what is and is not acceptable.”

      Social pressures are a great way to control trolls. Trolls don’t like feeling stupid any more than normal people. Establish an ethos for your community where trolls end up with shit smeared on their faces … and they won’t hang around long. My free speech rules only apply to people actually participating in the conversation. I won’t hesitate to exercise any form of tyranny over idiots who are just trying to add noise … including prompt deletion. But I rarely have to … because this is a very unfun place to be a douche. Hooray all of us!

      Here’s another link someone sent me awhile back regarding trolls …

    1. @SD,

      For some reason, I am surprised that it’s so soon. I realize that there may yet be multiple delays.

      1. And his defense has been outlined too.

        1. General denial
        2. Insufficient evidence
        3. Lack of a mens rea
        4. Lack of causation

        Point 3 is the “tragic accident” gambit. To me it looks like their entire case rests on that point. It won’t be easy for them to argue though, because of the concrete evidence of forwarnings (includings photos of previous sweat lodges and countless witness statements), a clear profit motive, his idiotic bragging about how extreme his lodges are, and the fact that they specially prepared tarps and hoses for people to collapse onto in their “altered state”. Ray’s staff already admitted that they thought it was normal for people to emerge half cooked to death from a sweat lodge.

        It also inherently admits a large degree of culpable negligence or stupidity, if they really didn’t realise what everyone else around them knew, and left it up to participants to save several lives.

        1. @Yakaru ::

          Recklessness {the “mens rea” in this case} :: wikipedia style ::

          “Recklessness usually arises when an accused is actually aware of the potentially adverse consequences to the planned actions, but has gone ahead anyway, exposing a particular individual or unknown victim to the risk of suffering the foreseen harm but not actually desiring that the victim be hurt.”

          … somebody’s is TOTALLY fucked!

          Note: No mention of insanity :: incompetence :: etc.

          1. It does seem a little too easy doesn’t it? I’m sure his lawyers will make a decent stab at it, but how could they possibly avoid running around in circles here?

            (1)JRI made retrospective amendments to their safety procedures – this was admitted to in the white papers. It can’t be argued that all the precautions were taken on the advice of a 3rd party, or that they were just being cautious. They had a nurse present specifically because they’d learned from the past. How can it be argued then that JAR wasn’t aware of the ‘potentially adverse consequences?’ He had previous experience of sweat lodges gone wrong.

            (2)If, as (1) would lead us to believe, JAR was well-informed of the risks, how can his actions at this event be seen as anything other than reckless? His lawyers would need to show that he’d taken all the precautions that could have been expected of him – that serious injury or death was a totally unforeseen risk that he could not possibly have had any notion of. Or that he knew of them, but had taken sufficient measures to counter these risks.

            (3)Just being cynical now, but if this was a ridiculously improbable outcome – something no-one could have been expected to predict – a special hats-off must go to the original JRI legal team, for including an unenforceable ‘death warrant’ in JRI’s client contract.

            Clearly, JAR thought to protect himself in the unlikely event of a participant dying…but he wasn’t able to forecast such an event when implementing safety procedures at his $9k workshops.

            1. @208-577-6210 & Droid,
              Yeh, and all this doesn’t take into account the known actions of JRI staff – Mad Meg hiding in the gift shop and “cleverly” managing to avoid being interviewed by police, the destruction of evidence, etc etc.

              There was a statement from a woman from 2008 who was calling for Ray after the sweat lodge because she sincerely believed she about to die, and wanted Ray to spiritually accompany as she “transitioned”. (!!!) But he had already got in his car and driven back to his room. – He seems to get off on overpowering people and abandoning them.

              And the sherrif’s office has just uploaded another doc. They’re adding another 30 odd witnesses to the existing list of about 150, including doctors and emergency workers.

              Interestingly, they also include a (former?) staff member, called Tammy Eshelman, whose name I haven’t heard before. Have they found another one who’ll talk?

              Interesting to see they will be presenting a whole lot of JRI waivers, including waivers signed by JRI staff members! So staff members also had to accept that their boss might kill them.


          2. @SD,

            Any possibility that he will plea-bargain?

            This case seems impossible for JAR, but hey, I thought that O. J.’s case was hopeless, too.

            1. The case is expected to last about 4 months.

              Regardless of how much money Ray has stashed under the radar, I’m not so sure it will be enough to carry him through a 4 month trial with this team of high powered, high cost attorneys and their expensive support staff.

              I wonder if Ray will end up forced to finish the trial with a public defender – although there’s no way a PD can get caught up with the facts of such a massive case (consider all the documents, witnesses, etc.) and substitute in.

              James Arthur Ray is an adrenaline junkie, and many believe he’s a psychopath. I wouldn’t be surprised if – at a dramatic point in the trial – he announces that he can’t afford his defense team and is cutting them loose to act as his own attorney, as opposed to accepting a public defender.

              It’s catnip for a narcissist who believes he’s much smarter than everyone else, no matter who they are.

              (SD: You know how much judges LOVE pro se defendants!)

              As a postscript, remember highly regarded and well known Florida criminal defense attorney Ben Kuehne? Long story, but the bottom line is that criminal defense attorneys can get into a lot of trouble if they accept tainted funds from clients. Retainers often require clients to affirm that they will not pay the attorney with funds that are the proceeds of criminal activity. For example, if your drug dealer defendant owns a legitimate horse farm and proves that the money going to the attorney is coming directly from the horse farm and is wholly unconnected to any alleged drug activity, the lawyer’s ok (or should be).

              If funds that Ray attempts to pay his lawyers are laundered, connected to currency structuring, related to fraud (whoops!) or have some other criminal connection, it could get interesting.

            2. To rwr:

              I have no answers for you, but I am again going to reference the O.J. case. I have a feeling he never paid his lawyers in full, but they never quit and he never fired them.

  17. @Yakaru:

    Regarding Tammy Eshelman, look her up under “Tami Eshelman.”

    Per this link, under ‘Contacts’ at bottom of the page, a Tami Eshelman is listed:

    Name Title
    Alyssa Lopez Employee
    Amy Grothe Employee
    Jri Careers Employee
    Michelle Goulet Employee
    Sheryl Stern
    Tami Eshelman

    I have no idea how good this site’s info is, or how they get it, though.

    1. @rwr,
      I can’t find any mention of her in the witness statements, so I guess she was’t at the death lodge.
      “Fan of Esther & Jerry Hicks and Glenn Beck.”
      Ok, I guess that rules out any chance of her having seen the light and changing sides!
      (I would be happy to be proved completely and utterly wrong on that, if you’re reading, Tami.)

      1. @Yakaru, On a previous post,you mentioned the woman Christina who called out for Ray as she was recovering from a sweat,but he just looked at her and drove away.She is Kristina Bivins with her name misspelled in the report.Although she was injured and Death Ray left in his cart(not car) ignoring her pleas for help, she is a WSS major supporter!Also,I have been told on Twitter,that our very own Hermia Nelson WAS/IS intimately involved with Death Ray.She too was severely injured in a Spiritual Warrior sweat, yet stayed true to the master. Can there be hyperthermia related brain damage that destroys thinking skills? Another bit of curiosity: I googled Kristina Bivins and saw on her Facebook that Shawna Bowen is one of her main friends although she was interviewed about the 09 sweat and strongly criticized Ray’s behavior and recklessness. I don’t understand these relationships.

        1. @Jean D,
          Any extreme of temperature will have an effect on the brain and therefore on thinking skills. Not much is known scientifically on direct causal relationships between brain function and the results of damage on the products of the mind (thought).
          My feeling is that you don’t have to be brain damaged to think irrationally, you just have to be driven by your emotions to the extent of overriding rational thought.

          I am fascinated by documented tales of people with significant brain injury/damage who nevertheless manage to live reasonable and satisfying lives. This is probably because I worry about the damage my own long-suffering brain has sustained (mostly self-inflicted)

          1. Thanks Jean. I didn’t realise it was Kristina Bivins. She seems to be as amd as they come. Already badly injured in one sweat lodge, collapsed and raving and accusing Ray in the last one, then flipping back to loyalty again and telling people not to talk to police.

            I understand she was the woman who James Ray “helped” after the death lodge. She was hysterical and he helped her by shaking her and talking to her. She may finish up being a star witness for the defense. And unwittingly for the prosecution as well.

      2. @Yakaru, I wonder if, because she is a realtor, if they are still trying to find his hidden money, or if this is regaurding his home sale???

      3. @Yakaru, I worked for James Ray for less than a year a couple of years ago. We parted on very bad terms. I gave my statement to the detective honestly and to the best of my knowledge. I’ve never attended any of his events other than a Harmonic Wealth Weekend which I worked the back tables. I learned alot at the program, but parted ways from his methods during a team building event where I was injured and which ultimately was the end of my employment. I was unable to find legal assistance to try to find fair resolution to being “let go”. Hopefully James will be brought to justice now.

  18. @ Hippo

    The OJ case was the kind of case that, to the attorneys, is worth its weight in diamonds – the lawyers became household names and internationally known. They’re on TV even now, all these years later, still introduced as lawyers in the OJ case. A high profile, impossible case like that is worth taking with no charge as a business/marketing investment.

    OJ had crossover appeal – football star turned rental car pitchman in a famous set of commercials and then an actor in the Leslie Neilsen comedies (Naked Gun). For one reason or another, we all knew who he was, and his public persona wasn’t unpleasant before information on the murders came out.

    James Arthur Ray is not remotely as interesting on any level. Nor is LOA, etc., to the general public. Ray’s public career was very short, and too much of a scam. I’d be surprised if the entire legal team stays on after his money runs out. Perhaps a few stragglers, but not the marquee names.

    BTW, he must be an extremely unpleasant client to have.

    1. @rwr,

      Yes, I do understand about the difference between O. J. and James Ray. All of your points are well taken, but I am just wondering if there is something that I am missing–if there is some benefit we are unaware of that would persuade the lawyers to keep representing him?

      1. @Hippo, it’s a good question. I’ve worked at large & boutique law firms over the years. Considering the high costs – to the firm – of defending such a complrx case with hundreds of witnesses and tens of thousands of documents on behalf of a weird, abrasive D lister, they’ll want to be paid. They likely won’t turn down paying clients to work on this case at no charge.

        As for a plea bargain, my feeling is that Ray brlieves he should not be held responsible, and between the hubris and psycho god-complex aspects driving him, I think it would not be a consideration. After all, Ray is better than everyone else and the rules don’t apply to him, according to him.

      2. @Hippo,I read the jury selection documents from the OJ case and the defense had far too much ability to pick people who leaned toward the belief that a professional athlete was incapable of murder. Also, few people had heard of DNA,yet,and the prosecution did not explain it in layman’s terms. There wasn’t enough explanation how a leather glove could shrink if it were soaked in blood, and other details the prosecution fell short on. I agree with rwr that Ray does not have star power to most Americans. I don’t think he has much support at all, but maybe that’s wishful thinking.

        Those of us tweeting him are trying different tactics,as crazy as it sounds,oh well. Today I scolded him in Spanish. He tweeted something about his teacher in Peru.Whatever. The whole shaman thing is a fabrication,no one in S America even knows that word. It comes from the Turko Mongolian cultures of North Central Asia and only anthropologists and New Agers apply it to other cultures.

        1. @Jean D,

          There was one woman on the jury, Francine something, who was very pro-prosecution. The defense started a rumor that she was writing a book, and they got her kicked off the jury.

          It was also said that Francine had been out-voted 11 to 1 on a previous jury, and that she had turned everybody around to her way of thinking–I guess kind of like “Twelve Angry Men.”

          Francine never wrote a book, and it was obviously a ploy by the defense.

          I thought they explained DNA just fine. That Dr. Robin Cotton was very articulate, and explained it so that an elementary school person could understand it. When I heard a juror say, “Well, lots of people have the same blood type,” I figured that they had already decided to acquit him, and were just making excuses.

          I don’t think they mis-understood the evidence at all.

          I thought the evidence was overwhelming.

          It’s like Dennis Miller said, “O. J., what were you thinking, leaving the Heismann Trophy at the crime scene? Your alibi is shakier than Katharine Hepburn’s head in a helicopter.”

          1. @Hippo, I was shocked by the aquittal and watched the trial religiously.I thought they could have explained the DNA a bit differently.Also,the defense made up the planting of evidence,contamination ideas that were ludicrous.A lot of people said the jury’s mind was made up prematurely. Do you think it was the defense selection process? I agree the evidence was overwhelming. It was a slam dunk that didn’t happen. A real disappointment.I was teaching high school the day of the verdict and the kids went crazy cheering the decision. I was in shock. But this cannot happen with Death Ray.His jurors won’t be LA star struck people.

            1. @Jean D,

              Great point about the jurors in Ray’s case not being star struck – but – isn’t the Sedona area a focal point of new Age and Secret followers (among other things) and, if so, would a potential jury pool of residents have an above-average leaning to believe the types of things Ray spouted?

              Not sure what the demographic of Prescott is like, but heard they may hold the trial there (or at least jury selection) because they need accommodations large enough for this case.

            2. @Jean D,

              I read a book by Christopher Darden, who was one of the prosecuting attorneys. He is black, and he attempted to explain the belief system of some of the minority people in Los Angeles. Apparently, enough of them had been targeted unfairly and treated badly by the police, that they had no trouble believing the suggestion that the officers had framed O. J.

            3. To rwr:

              Supposedly the New Age people in Sedona are a small minority of the overall population.

              The majority of people in the jury pool will probably be conservatives who would not be favorable to James Ray or his philosophy.

          2. @Hippo, Another thought about the Sedona jury pool is how the New Agers who really want to help people don’t want a bad image because of these crimes.Also,Sedona has been an artist area for a LONG time and there are many people who don’t want Vortex seeking crazies ruining their town. They are already upset about the hotel that was constructed and ruins the view of the red rocks. BTW Doesn’t a jury have to consist of people who are neutral about the case?

            The OJ trial was made to seem racial,by the defense team, but was about celebrity. Ray is not a celebrity by any stretch of the imagination.Remember the rumor that the jurors invited OJ to their end-of-the-trial celebration?

  19. The price dropped again on James Arthur Ray’s house, to $4,295,000, but more interesting is that they seem to have more added pictures. One (#4) shows a painting of Ray, over a fireplace, in which he seems to be vibrating.

    The house pics make it look empty, especially the more recent ones.

    Another is a picture (#20 & 21) of Ray’s closets – tons of shoes and hats (Gee – just like my mom!) Lots of new pool & backyard shots, along with one of a room that looks like a sparse home office, complete with crappy desk jet printer.

    At his bail hearing, Ray claimed that he did $300,000 on renovations when he bought the house. I honestly feel sorry for the previous owners, because I’m sure it was lovely before James Ray got hold of it – he seriously has terrible, terrible taste, even for a murderer.

    1. @sub-prime,

      I hope that Jean gets to see that picture of Ray over the fireplace. It will make her day.

      What’s with the painting of the nude in the bathroom? It looks creepy.

      1. @Hippo The only men who like their own portraits to be the focal point are dictators/naricissists. Saddam Hussein, Lenin,Mao Tse Tung,Edi Amin…are you sure that’s not Death Ray’s face on the Buddha statue?

        1. @,Anonymous supposed to be Jean D.on here way past my bedtime. My name was erased because I cleaned out my cache and cookies after googling Harmonic Wealth and getting a cookie msg. Don’t know enough about but after the time I turned on my computer and saw JRI symbols in my url bar and google bar,I don’t want their tracking cookies.

    2. @sub-prime,
      To me the whole place looks ‘styled’ completely outfitted with a job lot of furniture and accessories from the same Balinese store. No personal touches or personal taste shown except for the dubious portrait of his own mug over the fireplace and the blue bathroom nude (which reminds me of the 60’s Woolworth staple, the Green Chinese Girl, which daring types hung as high art in those times)
      I don’t think JAR has any of his own taste or his own personality.

      1. @stoic,

        Black Velvet Elvis would help! And , for obvious reasons, you just don’t hear that sentiment often.

        Agree that the nude in the bathroom is odd and out of place.

  20. Here’s a question that’s a little off-topic, but I don’t know where to post it.

    Does anyone know the condition of the eighteen or so injured people from the sweat lodge? I have been wondering about long-term or permanent injuries for some of these folks.

    What could Ray be charged with for causing varying degrees of disability to people who survived the sweat lodge, but can no longer function as well as they once did?

    That’s assuming that some of them will never fully recover, which is just a guess on my part.

    1. @Hippo, I know that Sidney Spencer had some permanent damage. She is suing him. I read somewhere that no charges would be filed against him for her as she survived, but taking all 18 injured into account will help getting him convicted hopefully.

      1. @wondering why,

        Well, if they somehow fail to convict him on the current charges, couldn’t they charge him with reckless endangerment, or something, for the injured people?

        1. @Hippo, I don’t expect the public purse will stretch that far. If they fail, it’ll be an indication that JAR’s lawyers are pretty formidable, so I doubt Yavapai county will rush to spend even more money for a substantially diminished charge. James should get hit with a ton of civil lawsuits though, either way. Though it seems he’s not liquid enough to pay them..

          1. @208-577-6210,

            Well, that’s a damn shame. In some ways, living for years in a severely debilitated condition could even be worse than dying.

            Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but in a civil lawsuit, I believe that a long-term disability case brings more money than a wrongful death case.

            And I mean no disrespect to the survivors here–I have no knowledge of the extent of their injuries. I hope they can all regain most of their previous quality of life.

  21. Hippo, just read the article below and it says that Liz Neuman died from prolonged exposure to sweatlodges. Plural, so there in telling how much long term damage has been done to his sweat lodge attendees over time!!

    “Autopsy reports show Mr. Brown and Mr. Shore died of heat stroke, and Ms. Neuman died after several organs shut down due to hypothermia from prolonged exposure to sweat lodges.”

    From the New York Times dated March 16, 2010

    1. @wondering why, I copied that quote directly by copying and pasting. I think they meant to say “due to hyperthermia”

    2. @wondering why, I’ve got a feeling that the article’s author (and his/her editor) will likely catch a bit of flak over their article. Never heard of someone suffering from hypothermia after being subjected to elevated temperatures (HYPERthermia, yes). I also wonder whether the reference to “sweat lodges” was a direct quote of the autopsy report. If these 2 seemingly minor errors were the article’s author’s, there will be those who will jump on the errors to dismiss the credibility of the entire article. If the statements came direct from the autopsy report, it’s likely to be a whole different ballgame when this goes to trial.

    3. @wondering why,
      The autopsy report is unlikely to mention exposure to sweatlodges, singular or plural. Hyperthermia is a result of exposure to heat and the pathologist, being a scientist and a precise user of language, will report what he finds without reference to the sweatlodge that is not on his autopsy table.
      Where the heat exposure came from is for the detectives to determine although the pathologist may venture an opinion that the result is in keeping with prolonged exposure in an overheated sweatlodge/s

    1. @wondering why,

      Is it possible that the plural “sweat lodgeS” is a typographical error, and means nothing? Although Bryan did say that his mother had known James Ray for about seven years, maybe she did attend a previous sweat lodge.

      1. @Hippo, I was under the impression that Liz Neuman has done sweatlodges before with James Ray, but maybe Brian can fill us in.

        1. @wondering why,

          If Ms. Neuman had done sweat lodges before, how could a pathologist figure out what damage was done from the sweat lodge that had just occurred and what damage had been done prior to that? Is that possible?

            1. @_cartman_, Wow Hippo, I just checked out that report and saw the incredible extent of damage that hyperthermia causes. It seems to me that those who survived the sweat lodge have a lot of cause for suing death-ray. Any loss of consciousness means severe, perhaps irreparable brain damage was occuring (if I read the report correctly). Someone correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am.

            2. After reading that report that Hippo posted I would say to anyone using saunas or steam rooms to be very cautious and don’t push yourself in the slightest bit. Get the hell out of there quick!

            3. @jamo.
              The brain is remarkable in its ability to relearn and re-route itself in cases of damage to a particular area, provided that area is not concerned with the basic physical bodily functions of breathing, temperature regulation etc.
              I wouldn’t worry too much about properly run saunas, if it gets too hot your body will let you know.

              Its the smooth talking shysters such as Death Ray you should watch out for, who will use every trick in the book to convince you to disregard the evidence of your own eyes, ears and brain.

            4. @_cartman_,

              There is a man named Daniel Pfankuch (sp?) who attended one of Death Ray’s sweat lodges several years ago who seems to have suffered ongoing brain damage.

              Mr. Salty posted a little bit of information about this man somewhere–not sure where–but he was taken to the hospital after a 2005 sweat lodge, and does not seem to have recovered.

              Also, with the more recent attendees, I would imagine that the full nature and extent of their injuries is not known–some things may or may not improve with time.

            5. @_cartman_, I prefer my brain the way it is and don’t want to test whether it can “reroute” itself or not and I am sure Ray’s attendees weren’t thinking they would have to reroute the connections in their brains after the events. That is exactly what their brains will have to do if they lost even semi-consciousness. Maybe Ray didn’t want to kill them but he wanted to cook them to the point of brain damage (“altered state”). That much is clear.

            6. Got it, Jamo.
              My personal take is that Death Ray didn’t give a toss whether he killed his customers or not, he had their money and that is what mattered most to him.

              I am not advising that you test how much damage your brain can sustain without completely burning out, I am suggesting that your brain is a complex and wonderful thing that takes care of business if you do not fuck things up by listening to sophisticated salesmen like Death Ray who will tie that complex and wonderful thing into lethal knots.


            7. This is to Stoic:

              I hope we learn more about this issue as time goes on. I myself have some minor brain damage as the result of an illness, and I have never been able to overcome or compensate for it in any way.

              I imagine it varies depending on the person.

              Something just occurred to me: I have been to a couple of self-help seminars, years ago, and one thing I heard repeated a few times is that we only use 5% of our brains. I am wondering if Ray told this to his followers, and if he claimed that their brain activity would increase as a result of going on his Spiritual Warrior outing?

              If that’s true, it would be ironic and very sad.

            8. To Stoic:

              If this is truly how Ray was thinking, he certainly was a stupid businessman, regardless of his lack of concern for his attendees.

              A business like his would benefit from word-of-mouth advertising. If he had the wisdom or ability to give his participants an uplifting seminar experience, he would get a lot more of that green stuff he’s so fond of.

              By not taking care of his customers, he destroyed HIMSELF.

            9. @Hippo,
              I am sorry about your minor brain damage and am not implying that all things can be overcome. I’ve been around awhile so I assume my brain is a bit ragged round the edges, it still does the important stuff however.

              The ‘5% of your brain’ fallacy has been a motivational staple for years. Nature abhors a vacuum, if you truly did have 95% brain capacity going spare it would atrophy in no time, just like a muscle that wastes if it is not used. (or perhaps that is what happens to the pap Oprah or Death Ray spout, it fills up that 95% yawning void in people who believe the 5% tripe)

              Death Ray was not running a business, he was running a complete ladder of manipulation. Each event led onto the next, each event primed the customers to buy the next level of bull-shit, the events progressively increased the level of persuasion and at the same time weeded out those who were beginning to doubt.
              Death Ray was doing something called ‘the engineering of consent’, where his unwitting customers ‘voluntarily’ (although without their informed consent) gave him complete power over their lives–and by extension their deaths.

              Death Ray had no business as he had nothing to sell except the endlessly unfulfilled promise of something better. Note the ‘something’ it is very important that the ‘something’ remains foggy and undefined, that way it will mean whatever each person wants it to mean.
              What that ‘something’ meant to Death Ray was a massive inflow of easy money and the total intoxication of ultimate power over other people.

          1. @Hippo wrote:
            “I have been to a couple of self-help seminars, years ago, and one thing I heard repeated a few times is that we only use 5% of our brains…”

            Hippo, the usual spiel from positive-thinking gurus is that “we only use 10% of our brains”…and they of course have just the breakthrough technique or product line or seminar series to help us lose… I mean USE…more of our innate brain power.

            The “10% myth” is one of those that just won’t die, though it has been debunked more than once in recent years.

            1. @Cosmic Connie,

              Is it 10%? I think I heard 5%. No matter, the point is the same.

              When I first heard it, I accepted it without question. Wish I had known then what I know now.

            2. @Cosmic Connie, What Stoic says is right. The employees sometimes discussed whether they were “ready” to attend an event. Some were just not “ready” to take on something like Modern Magic. They would whisper amongst themselves (not Josh and Meg) if they thought they could ever go that far… it was known that people would not accept that level of information right off the bat so the first couple of events were really helpful and some terrific growth occurred in the attendees. Real growth. BUT, that only served to cement their following into the next level of events. The larger events were somewhat mysterious to new employees…we didn’t really get to know the details of the syntax. TMI I think. No one thought that James had anything but love for the people he served. But it was also very well known that employees were disposable. He went thru them by burning them out and usually they just didn’t show up any more…work there was 24×7. You lived and breathed the methods and were better for it in many ways. But it takes quite a toll on family and life in general since you priority MUST be JRI or you are out. James is a single minded, driven, charming, controlling, brilliant, heartless business man, with an entitlement streak and superiority complex. Can you see how he rolls? I guarantee if he does go to prison he will be the most successful prisoner in the history of prisoners because he walks his own walk. When he says he does this or that in his events, he means it. He never stops. Relentlessly pursuing success is what he does with no regard to anyone who gets in the way of it.

            3. Ex Employee,

              Thanks for your insider view on life at JRI. I think it clear that James Ray made no distinctions at all between customers and employees–all were just there to be used for his own purposes.

              I do think that you might be a bit overawed by his powers though if you think they will have the same effects behind bars. Prison inmates measure success and power in ways that would give James Ray the mother of all nightmares.
              Death Ray may talk a good talk but he hasn’t the faintest notion of what it is to walk that talk.
              There will be a few hardened cons lining up to demonstrate that to him and to show him the true nature of ‘power in the moment’.
              And not before time.

  22. My prediction on this case is that it will be historical in the it will mark a change in the public’s perception on the self-help industry wich will come out smelling like crap.

    1. @Jamo,

      I certainly hope you’re right. However, most people I talk to know nothing about this case. I have been on a soapbox about this thing, even though I have no direct involvement with any of the participants.

      I imagine that things would be different if one of the injured people was a celebrity.

  23. Groan. Jamo, I hope you are right. But I very much fear the public has a short memory.

    I remember the horror when we saw the news footage of all the dead people
    piled up in the jungle compound at Jonestown. Even Walter Cronkhite looked horror stricken as he gave the news.

    ‘Drinking the Koolaide’ entered popular parlance.

    But…we have these charlatans in our midst to this day. I think all that happened was that the hustlers took heed from Jim Jones and learned
    to be more careful next time.

    Just trust me on this one. The onlooking hustlers are studying the JRay case as closely as we are, and maybe more so. And they doing it to refine
    their own methodology so that THEY do not get caught–or do a more adroit job of ensuring that their faithful helpers get blamed and hauled off to jail.

    If you have no conscience or empathy and witness a disaster, all you learn from it, is the other Guy Got Caught. What Must I Do So I Do Not Get Caught?

    Then the crook goes home and practices Crocodile Tears in the Mirror exercises before going to bed and having a sound sleep.

    1. @noodlebowl, you took the words right out of my mouth. The public *does* have a short memory, a point I’ve often groused about. After Jonestown, everyone was horrified. But the world went on. And a generation later there was Heaven’s Gate. Once again, everyone was horrified. But the world went on. Since most of us don’t identify with cult loonies who set their sights on the Mother Ship or worship some Messianic nut case, we think we’re immune to participating in self-destructive activities in the name of salvation or personal growth. That’s one reason events such as Sweatgate can happen.

      In the case of Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate there were actually mass murders/suicides — deliberate acts to end the lives of many people. Sweatgate was different in that “only” three people died (with an undetermined number permanently injured; we just don’t know yet), and I for one don’t believe Ray intended for anyone to actually die. Depending upon the outcome of his trial, the self-help world may really be shaken up for a while, but sooner or later it will probably be business as usual.

      But maybe all the buzz here and on Rick Ross and elsewhere will help at least a few folks from getting into dicey situations like Death Lodge in the future.

  24. Note on high heat.

    Years ago, I was involved with a bicycling event, where we had a heatwave.

    The tempreture went into the 110s.

    People got so dotty and dehydrated that they tried to keep on riding. I heard of one woman who was waiting in line to get onto the Support and Gear transport bus, back to camp.

    She wandered off, got back on her bike, rode off and then collapsed. She was just one who tried to keep riding. I had so much difficulty riding
    a straight line that I had to study the white line on the highway and pretend I was the needle on a sewing machine, following a diagram to keep
    a perfect straight line.

    Later, someone said, ‘If you needed to do THAT to ride straight, you should not have been riding at all, damn it.’

    (Note: I was not dehydrated at the time–I was peeing liberally at all
    the rest stops. It was the heat)

    And I had a blazing high fever with the flu and it never at any time occurred to me 1) I have the flu 2) I never thought of calling the advice
    nurse and 3) It never occurred to me to call my neighbors and say, ‘I am sick as a dog, check in on me.’)

    When a computer’s ‘brain’ malfunctions, the system stops running and you have to give up and trouble shoot. Once you fix it, you get your computer back. But, a person may not fully recover from an equivalent hard drive ‘crash.’

    When the brain overheats it cant function at full capacity, but unfortunately, you can still hand over a credit card, sign a check, drive a car, walk around and allow yourself to be persuaded to stay in the very situation that is impairing your mind–and, depending on the situation, endangering your body.

    1. @noodlebowl, Exellent points. I hope the procecutors make these very same ones at Ray’s trial to counter Ray’s “they should have listened to their bodies and left if they didn’t feel well. No one stopped them from leaving” bullshit.

    2. @noodlebowl,

      That is such a great post. Also, I would think that you could be very easily manipulated by someone with an authoritative manner. Being a little disoriented, it would seem natural to follow directions given by someone who appears to know what he’s doing.

      Like Jamo said, an excellent rebuttal to people who think they would just walk out of the sweat lodge when they started to experience symptoms.

  25. A question to The Droid:

    Given the location of the trial near Sedona, what kind of voir dire questions would you want to see asked of potential jurors?

  26. I just put this on and wanted to share it here:

    Considering James Arthur Ray’s trial will be held in the general Sedona area, which is apparently a central site for beliefs along the lines of The Secret, (and similar), what questions would you want to see prosecutors pose to potential jurors in the voir dire (questioning) process?

    And, if the prosecutors are reading this, who would you want them to consult with in creating the list of questions posed to potential jurors to red flag those with bias to Ray, The Secret, LOA, cult mindset, abusive authority figures, etc?

    I wonder if Robert Cialdini would consult or appear as an expert witness? Whether the criminal case or in any of the civil cases to follow.

    If Ray is smart, he will spend a lot on a top jury consultant to try to shape the jury as best he can.

    Yavapai County is, unfortunately, limited by a government budget.

    There is long term, excellent international publicity to be gained for one or more cult-buster experts to serve as expert witness(es), even without pay, as the headlines made by the information he or she will disclose to the press on the whole covert persuasion industry can make that person a household name and provide them with media and publicity for years to come only dreamed about by most.

    Lastly, in some cases, the court will accept amicus briefs – also called Friend of the Court briefs, on selected key issues. I’d love to see amicus briefs on proper Native American practices as well as briefs from persuasion and cult experts. Groups must have standing to file amicus briefs, and they must ask the court for permission to file.

    1. @jimmy profit,

      There are already non-connected Native American experts listed as witnesses for the prosecution, presumably to supply information on how a sweatlodge should be properly conducted and what safeguards and checks are in place for the safety of the participants. So YCSO have that angle covered.
      From the tone and leading of the questioning of witnesses, they are also savvy to the implication of undue influence being a factor. I think that is a tricky one to prove to a legal standard and the prosecution must be very much more aware of that trickiness than I, a layperson, can be.

      On some things you just have to put your faith in the people who do this as a dayjob and trust that they will give it their best effort. YCSO seem on the ball so far.

    2. @jimmy profit,

      I can’t answer most of your questions, but I did want to mention that Yavapai County is heavily conservative. I don’t think that most residents are going to be proponents of Ray’s type of belief system.

      The “woo-woo” attitude exhibited by some Sedona residents is apparently not the norm.

      So just off the top of my head, I would think that there would be a bias AGAINST Ray. I seem to recall that his lawyers wanted a change of venue, perhaps for that very reason.

  27. I just noticed on that the medical examiner is saying that the deaths are “accidental.” What is the legal ramification of this in terms of the charges against Death Ray?

    1. @Hippo, No legal rammification Hippo. The autopsy reports basically concluded that they died from being cooked to death. Toxocology reports all negative — no premeditated murder, therefore they needed to label it “accidental”. This fits perfectly in line with the charge of manslaughter.

      1. @Jamo,

        I am glad to hear that. I was afraid that this would give support to Death Ray’s argument of an “unforseeable accident.” I understand that he didn’t kill them on purpose.

        1. @Hippo, Some of us believe he killed them on purpose,but it’s hard to prove without some sort of recorded or documentation of prior intent.Difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. What the charges reflect is that he did not respond as a reasonable person would in the same circumstance,he set up conditions that took lives, like drinking and driving a vehicle. A reasonable person responds, takes precautions, avoids danger and safety violations. The word accident can be confusing here and the defense team will manipulate it.I don’t think they stand an icicle’s chance in hell of winning. The NewAge crowd doesn’t represent that part of Arizona.It was an artist colony,before the “vortex” idea was hatched and people started going there seeking enlightenment.

          1. @Jean D,

            I understand. I personally do not think he did want to kill them, and I hope I’m right. As much as I despise this guy, I am not willing to assume he’s that bad unless there’s more evidence.

  28. what if witnessing the death of Colleen Conaway with his own eyes, accelerated J-Rays appetite for more
    he was on a powertrip pushing people close to death for years, many people were getting hurt. then Colleen gets killed, and they cover it up. and nothing happens, no charges no media.

    J-Ray then thinks he got away with the death, and decides to push it even further. after all if someone dies, then he thinks they can sweep it under the rug. but he pushed it too far that time.

    what if there was only one death that occurred in the Sedona hospital, would anyone have ever heard anything about it.

    1. @Jay,

      If that’s true, all the more reason to lock him up and throw away the key.

      I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this issue for the time being. I hope I’m right about this. It would be nice if he had a shred of humanity.

    2. @Jay, My thoughts exactly, about Colleen. In the pit of my stomach I feel Ray was either on that level with her,or close by, pushing her verbally and/or physically. After reading the police interviews,especially Megan F’s, I became convinced that he is a killer. The manner in which he stared at,failed to assist,then abandoned the injured way before 2009,and both injured and dying last October,makes me wonder,as macabre as it sounds,if he went to his room to pleasure himself. Serial killers and sadists hurt and kill because of a warped psychosexual mechanism. Currently,some of Ray’s strongest supporters are repjortedly wounded particpants from previous sweat traps,and at least one woman is rumored to still be intimately involved with him.
      The consistent blurring of life and death that Ray was obsessed with is also a common characteristic of killers. Dahmer repeatedly made his victims unconscious,then revived them. The way Megan describes Death Ray’s insistence on creating ambiguity about unconsciousness, distress and death,made me recall an NPR interview with Dr.Helen Morrison(author of “My Life Among the Serial Killers”) There was audio of her asking a serial killer, “Am I alive or dead?”, he took a few minutes to answer,then replied,”Alive,I guess.”

        1. @ Jean D
          I wonder to what degree Death Ray’s mentality will be revealed by in the trial.

          It’s clear to me that he gets off on overpowering people and sets up situations where he is in control of pushing others beyond their limits. It sounds disgustingly plausible that there’s a depraved sexual element in that, and would fit well with the steroids.

          It makes me feel sick to think about what an “energy hit” it must have been for all of them when Colleen died and they managed to cover it up. Those photos manic photos Droid published here from their party that night show how pumped up they all were.

          If Death Ray or his crew think they will have a chance of winning over the jury, they can forget it. When the details of that cover up come out, any sympathy that might have been there for any of those clowns will evaporate as fast as it did for the employees who quit in disgust upon learning of it.

          1. @Jean D. Good point about the steroids. In ape studies it is found that the leaders have higher testosterone levels.

            If you want to appear super-human, god-like and one step above everyone else, then steroids are your drug.

            He tricked people into thinking that if they followed his sadistic program and forced themselves to endure the cooking process in his “sweat lodge”, then they could be like him. Little did they know he was getting his “aura” from a needle, and that his “process” could leave them incapacitated for life or dead. Nice guy.

            1. By his own admission,Ray has been injecting drugs for years.His descent into madness,to the depths of his hallucinations and warped psychosexual attraction to death,was not complete until he took others down with him. @noodlebowl The story about the hooligans gave me chills,the same reaction while reading Megan and Josh’s interviews.The accomplice factor is so apparent and now it makes sense: chemistry attracted seemingly mundane,not very glamorous individuals,Fredricksons, Hartle, Goulet, to Ray’s powerful and murderous nature. On Nov 6,2009,Salty Droid posted the perfect picture of these weasels dancing in San Diego w/Colleens’ blood on their hands.

              In “Creative Aggression”, Bach and Goldberg describe mass murderers as “The Nice Killers”(This is on Google books) Secrecy,dual lives,hiding who they are from general view,calm demeanor,manipulative qualities… The question keeps running through my mind,Did anyone realize Ray was creating a human steam pot,disguised as a “Native American ritual”, in order to fulfill his sick fantasy of watching people suffer and die? Historically, killers have operated in a variety of devious ways,some very slowly.Pier Gourier dined 8 men to death before he was outwitted.

        2. @, A It does not deserve to be called a sweat lodge as we have said many times here,it was an event of his own insane making,not in any way like a real sweat lodge. The more that’s published about this guy, the more barbaric,sub-human he emerges.

    1. @Greg Hartle: Even Death Ray’s brother found the balls to do it.

      Some of Stephen Ray’s comments:
      Would it be helpful to you to have access to some of the information that Mr. Ray has been sending out?
      I think he was grossly negligent and I think he should have to suffer the consequences of that.
      …a little short 2K run or 5K run/walk, event organizers have paramedics there. Which is not anywhere, doesn’t even scratch the surface of the extremes that he was, you know he’s exposing his participants to and he didn’t have qualified personnel there number one in case something happened. Number two when people started to get sick he moved on anyway.
      He showed a callous disregard for the participants because of you know his own ego and greed
      Alright well you know thank you for the help and thank you for the hard work on getting to the bottom of all of it cause I know that one of the really sad parts about how it’s gonna pan out and part of what’s gonna hamper I think your guys’ efforts is that there’s quite a few people that, for lack of a better way to put it, that I believe have drank his verbal Kool Aide and would be willing to lie on the stand for him. So
      Det. Diskin: That’s becoming apparent
      Stephen: Yeah and so it just boggles my mind when you have those people that lost their lives and then people are still willing to, I mean there was a call that he had after which was supposed to be for participants and one of his underlings spoke up and said, ‘the people that passed away were in another place and were having so much fun that they just didn’t want to come back’. And I thought that was the biggest crock of crap that I’ve ever heard in my life….
      Det. Diskin: …I think that that’s very offensive to the family members of the victims. What does James Shores’ three kids think when they hear that? They think oh dad didn’t want to come back to us? You know?
      Stephen: Exactly

      1. @Yakaru,
        It has clearly dawned on Stephen that JAR was quite willing to recklessly endanger his brother as well as his paying customers.
        When will the penny drop for the remaining employees?

        1. @stoic,
          Stephen was dragged out of the death lodge unconscious and having a seizure, and had to be air lifted out. Pity he doesn’t have access to inside information. Hartle should realise that if Ray is prepared to half kill his brother and doesn’t give a shit, that Ray also doesn’t give a shit about his employees either.

          But as you commented on the RR thread in a different context, Ray can get people to act psychotic without them even suspecting anything.

          1. @Yakaru, Yeah amazing, his own BROTHER!! His brother has memory loss, traumatic headaches, ringing in his ears, pain and can’t work and doesn’t have a job, and JAR won’t even pay for his own brothers medical bills from this incident that HE caused!! What is with this guy???

        2. Apologies for perpetuating the mistake over Stephen Ray being Death Ray’s brother. Its a big tangled ball of confusion.

            1. @stoic,

              I seem to recall reading somewhere that both of them were on that bus.

              I am unclear as to whether the brother is supportive of Death Ray, if they have had a falling out, or what. If he was at the Spiritual Warrior seminar, I have not heard any mention of it.

          1. @stoic,

            Confusion over James Ray’s brother’s name is the least of the problems in this giant clusterfuck. Do we know if James Ray’s ACTUAL brother was at the Spiritual Warrior event?

            I believe he was at the San Diego event where Colleen was killed, is that correct? I am curious as to whether James Ray gives his own brother preferential treatment, or treats him the same or worse than the paying customers.

            1. @Hippo,
              According to the info gathered on the RickRoss site, which is picked up from various sources, there being no witness statements for the San Diego event, both JAR and his brother were on the bus to the mall along with Colleen.
              We know Colleen wasn’t on the bus going back, is it safe to assume both JAR and his brother were?

      2. @Yakaru, Thanks for the link, I found it.

        Stephen Ray seems like a nice guy. It shows you that Ray’s arrogance also separated him from his family menbers. It also underscores the brain damage that occured to the participants. There is not much that can be worse than brain damage because it effects all areas of life. It sounds like Stephen might be a valuable witness at the trial.

        It sounds like there will be 2 different stories presented to the jury by the witnesses. The first, by the witnesses who have drunk Ray’s koolaid who will say everything was perfect, and the second by the witnesses who are telling the sobering truth. My guess is the latter group will far out-number the former. We’ll see who the jury believes — my money is on the latter group. It is harder to lie than to tell the truth and there are fine details in the truth that reveal it as truthful that are missing in the lies.

        Plus you either think Ray is god, or you think he is a total asshole. There is not much in between — it is tough to think of Ray as an average normal guy. And even his brother thinks he is an asshole. So we will see if Ray’s lawyers try to convince the jury that Ray is some amazing savior — that will certainly be a hard one to put over on them. The bloom has come off Ray’s rose. That’s why he is twittering away with those idiotic sayings, to try to maitain his “specialness”. Well it isn’t working. I think he has run out of sayings to post on twitter as he has begun repeating himself. I seems to me that those tweets are backfiring as it is making him look more idiotic. He is acting desparate because it is most likely sinking in that he is in BIG trouble.

    2. @Yakaru,thanks for that link. Hippo it states in that interview that they might charge Ray for the injuries that he caused to the survivors of the “sweat trap” but that would be further down the road if they did..

  29. Regarding James Ray’s brother:

    Ray’s brother is Jon C. Ray, not Stephen.

    If Ray had let his own brother in the lodge, you know he would have placed him in the ‘safe’ area by the door with him, Megan, etc.

  30. Sorry for the confusion about Ray’s brother. My fault. Here’s a link which Jimmy Protfit posted on the Rick Ross forum to clarify it.

    I retract any suggestion that Ray’s brother is in any way ethical or honorable. He still has a chance to prove it and come clean about what happened to Colleen Conaway.

    The revelations in Stephen Ray’s interview are still shocking. Telling others they are more than their body, they can do it, etc, while sprinkling water on himself and Megan. What else is going to come out before this is done?

  31. In the 1980s and early 1990s journalist Bill Buford, an American living in the UK, became aware of football hooligans. He decided to join one of the Man United ‘firms’ to learn through participant observation why so very many young men, quite a few with excellent social opportunities, were rioting dangerously, maniacally.

    He wrote and published a horrifying book entitled Among the Thugs. Not
    to be read at bedtime if you have shaky nerves. This stuff is blodd soaked horror.

    Buford himself was surprised at how pleasurable mob behavior and violence was for him. It was a guilty discovery.

    He describes the chemistry, the timing, bit by bit, on how a group of thrill seekers shifts tentatively toward flash point and becomes a mob.

    A mob both needs and creates leaders. At the same time, in the case of the football hooligans, there existed a network of enablers who made money assisting the would be hooligans to reach their destinations and then would try to vanish, making money and evading accountablity for the mayhem caused.

    Buford witnessed mobs doing hideous things–practically begging for trouble, trashing Turin’s city square. Finally, after several years, Buford reached a point where, in the midst of a British mob, he was systematically clubbed in the head and in the kidneys, by police in Caglieri and felt an obligation to keep himself conscious and aware of his own degradation and agony so he could create some kind of verbal record, as a jouranlist, for readers.

    But here is something Buford suggests about the violent ‘lad culture’ in Britain, now that the actual, genuine working class is gone. The lad culture is composed of persons who do not have the original social context of working class life and purpose, but hang on to an exaggerated collection of mannerisms.

    Buford suggests these people both in person and as a crowd, feel dead inside, and the violence is a way to ‘pinch itself’ and feel alive.

    Further up, someone quoted the NPR program

    “made me recall an NPR interview with Dr.Helen Morrison(author of “My Life Among the Serial Killers”) There was audio of her asking a serial killer, “Am I alive or dead?”, he took a few minutes to answer,then replied,”Alive,I guess.””

    There is also a possiblity of what Robert J Lifton, in his book on The Nazi Doctors, terms dissociative ‘doubling’ in which half of you is a nice family person and another half of you does ghastly things, rationalized by some ideology.

    One man Buford met was a lovely funny family man, whom he met at a pub. He met the man, who had two young kids. The man became involved with football hooliganism.

    One night, the guy stormed a policemen’s party and did something ghastly to one of the officers.

    He left the party, covered in blood, came home,and was calm. His wife loyally ignored the blood and they went to a local fried chicken restrauant which was then surrounded by police and the guy was arrested.

    Doubling. One half was a family man the other half bit chunks out of police officers to feel alive.

    But at least this guy bore the consequences himself.

    If someone feels dead inside, maybe endangering others is a way to feel emotions vicariously–use other peoples excitement, devotion, agony, as ones own surrogate emotional life, for ones own emotions are split off or perhaps not there at all.

    1. @noodlebowl, Yes, and when you add “getting money” to your list at the end, it is even more dangerous.

  32. Here is an article on the importance of adequate hydration.

    here are some surprising items: Dehydration triggers inflammatory chemicals and can make some persons more susceptible to asthma. I recall
    having some breathing difficulties when I became dehydrated. I could not understand at the time how the two went together. This article solved the mystery.

    “The most elaborate dietary regimes and costly nutritional supplementation can only work if a person is well hydrated.

    When you become dehydrated a cascade of chemical events take place. Your body naturally begins to increase production of histamine. Histamine is present in all body tissues and produced by the mast cells found in connective tissue. Not only is histamine a mediator in inflammation, but it acts as a neurotransmitter, directing and operating the subordinate systems that promote water distribution to various tissues and organs. These subordinate systems involve the action of the hormones vasopressin and renin-angiotensin, as well as prostaglandins and kinins. When levels become excessively active the mucus membranes of the lungs, for example, can become irritated and in time the muscles and tissues that make up the breathing mechanism can go into spasm, resulting in severe breathing problems and at worse asthma . This in addition to long term damage to the immune system is bad news indeed for the athlete.

    When the core temperature rises while training the blood that would otherwise be available for the muscles is used for cooling via respiration and perspiration. The body will do this automatically as temperature moves out of the preferred narrow range. It is this loss of water that ultimately impairs physical performance **and interferes with normal cognitive function.** ”

    (I added the ** – NB)

    1. @noodlebowl,
      Brilliant article, I liked the headline:

      ‘The human body is composed of 25% solid matter, and 75% water.’
      and would just add “keep it that way”

    2. @noodlebowl, Someone reported Kirby making loud “snoring” noises early on during the sweat trap.

  33. Looking at that picture again, nothing screams success like having your own table (not desk) and a cheap fabric cubicle wall.

    Remember Les Nessman?

  34. Peripherally related to James Ray, I’ve been reading about PSI on,24037,page=1

    PSI is a horror show. They shatter people, their lives, marriages, families and relationships with extremely powerful techniques

    The further I got, I saw a few notable similarities with James Arthur Ray’s methods..

    Apparently Bob Proctor (was he supposed to be a mentor of Ray’s?) was a frequent PSI speaker, as were other Secret presenters.

    This entry, about the lack of ethics and very warped personal lives of top staffers was pretty outrageous if true, and was supported by other posts,24037,54378#msg-54378

    What stood out regarding the tactics was this,24037,54599#msg-54599
    Apparently they use a string of powerful brainwashing techniques, which are detailed. In the post.

    As deeply disturbing as these are, there was more – an exercise designed to create an altered mental state similar to LSD, and an extreme bonding experience between participants.,24037,45343#msg-45343

    “The Intimacy Experiment.
    In the early 1960s Eric Berne conducted a social experiment with members of his Tuesday evening seminar. This so-called Intimacy Experiment was designed to find out what would happen between two people when all other modes of social interaction (games, pastimes, rituals) were forbidden. This is how he describes the experiment in an article written for his Transactional Analysis Bulletin.

    The two subjects sit facing one another with their faces less than twenty inches apart, taking twenty inches as the near point for visual acuity, and stare into one another’s eyes for up to twenty minutes.

    After about fifteen minutes if the experiment is properly performed some of the subjects would begin to experience phenomena similar to those induced in susceptible people by prolonged sensory isolation or by LSD 25 or similar drugs. He was convinced that these effects were the production of archaic phenomena.

    He concluded that the conditions of the experiment tended to diminish Parent influence and Adult data processing thus partly exposing the unadapted expressive Child buried since nursing days.

    The purpose of sitting within the near point of vision is that this is the way an infant sees his mother. Hence people find them selves in a situation such as they have not experienced since early infancy.

    In a lecture at San Jose State 1965 Berne warned against using the experiment indiscriminately since the long term effects were not known; the experiment should be restricted to married couples only.”
    While probably peripheral to Ray, the extremes seemed to make it worth noting.

  35. Jesus.

    I read a description of a man who endured torture and interrogation by the Gestapo.

    He was told by his interrogating officer, ‘At all times you will look
    directly into my eyes.’

    They were possibly and probably farther than twenty inches apart.’

    But…in all forms of interrogation, whether actual torture is used,
    or quieter forms of persuasion, the goal is always, to set conditions
    for the target/prisoner to bond with the interrogator.

    This was published over twenty years ago in a newsletter for the American Psychological Association, but it was in an issue on the topic of torture.

    One article ended by quoting the words of a torturer as recalled by someone who was able to survive and get out of prison:

    “In the end, you will see with my eyes and hear with my ears.”

    The torturer/interrogators intention is to crush or shove aside the targets core self and implant/download the persuaders own perspective into the victim.

    This is the scary thing, friends. What was accomplished at Nuremberg Stadium or in various and sundry torture centers, whether in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, French occuppied Algiers, Communist China and Korea, Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, and (I bow my head in shame) US
    linked ‘black prisons’ and the base at Bagram and in Gitmo, and Syria..

    is now happening on stages and other spots rented by folks in the Persuasion Industry claiming to be spiritual teachers or experts in

    And no one is screaming in fear and outrage in the streets.

    Let us hope we can start something here. Thanks, Salty.

    1. @noodlebowl, An important,yet ignored, component of American history is the brutal placement of many Native American tribes into concentration camps and forced relocation from their tribal lands to other areas of the country,specifically “Indian Territory” or modern-day Oklahoma. Little known fact-There was only one tiny area of Oklahoma that was inhabited by humans prior to the relocation programs. All the many tribes who live here today were forced to walk,ride trains,or arrive in wagons,often with dire results.
      The most horrible aspect of this history was the destruction of tribal families. Children were removed from loved ones and placed in boarding schools to “assimilate them”. At the Carlisle School in Pennsylvania,you can see the graves of countless Indian babies and children who died from disease,malnutrition,abuse, and even broken hearts.

    2. When working with aggressive dogs, direct eye contact is something that has to be avoided as its the quickest way to set off the animals instinct to fight. If you observe a pack of dogs or wolves, direct eye contact is the privilege of the top dog only, a challenge begins when a another animal holds and returns the top dogs eye contact.
      In a hierarchy, or a well established pack, the top dog can sort the pecking order squabbles just with a look.
      Proper training of an aggressive dog involves first gaining the dog’s trust, establishing yourself as a capable pack leader, and then the dog will respond to your direct eye contact subserviently.
      I don’t know much about lion or tiga taming, but I assume the same principle applies.
      Having worked extensively with aggressive dogs, I know enough never to anthropomorphise these wild beasts, any one of them can turn at any time.

  36. Jean D is right. I stand corrected. After typing my entry, I thought about whether to state that the list of examples given was far from complete.

    America is part of a tapestry of pain and human degradation. But part of our identity as Americans is–we are, by terms of the ideas and documents that birthed our nation into being–we are supposed to do better than history’s wretched baseline.

    And that means the only way for America to atone is not to go into paralyzing guilt, but to find what Robert J Lifton, in his book on Vietnam veterans, terms ‘animating guilt’ or what I would term ‘a senste of vitalizing responsibility’– to call attention to degrading behavior in which the resources of the First Amendment are exploited to support invasion and colonization of human identity and plundering of resources, whether of people’s pocketbooks, public funds, or the planet herself.

    Never Again

    1. @noodlebowl, You did not need to correct yourself at all. What you posted was great and I just added to it. We must not tolerate exploitation of anyone at anytime. To care about our fellow humans,even if we have experienced trauma or difficulties in life is what is called “altruism born of suffering”. Thank you for your insights.

  37. Here is someone’s published description of an eyegazing episode that led her to make a very important decision.

    And she seems unaware of what was done.

    The fellow who introduced this enneagram stuff should have followed the rules of research and had it tested by experts in psychometrics at a university. After all, he was a psychiatrist. Doing it in a backyard situation with a bunch of gullible kids–uh uh.

    Now this thing is popular, world wide, folks make money off of it.

    There is zero record of Buddha ever mentioning it, and yet some Buddhists drag this New Wage nonsense into their stuff.

    In my opinion, this is just another way to dodge feeling ‘stuck’ dodge boredom, and instead of facing boredom in ones simple Buddhist practice, to gunk it up and make it entertaining and needlessly complicated by adding another set of bells and whistles.,fd2b278c

    Eyegazing in a back yard in Berkeley, long long ago.

    Part ONE, June 2001

    This two-part monthly interview by Andrea Isaacs appeared in the June and July/August 2004 issues of Enneagram Monthly.

    Andrea Isaacs: I’d like to begin by introducing you to our readers. You’re one of the few people who studied with Claudio [Naranjo] in his first SAT [Seekers After Truth] group back in 1970. I heard your name for the first time when we interviewed Hameed a couple of years ago [see: “Conversation with A.H. Almaas,” June and July/August, 1999] when he said one of his senior teachers was working on an Enneagram book. Now you’re becoming very well-known as a teacher in your own right, both within and outside the Enneagram community. I have a lot of curiosity about those early days with Claudio’s SAT group when the personal and spiritual growth movements were just beginning to emerge. How did you first come across Claudio, and what drew you to him and his classes?

    Sandra Maitri: It was one of those accidents that really aren’t, that’s meant to be. At the time, I was looking for a Gestalt group, and a friend of mine had heard about Claudio. She was living in a New Age community down on the [San Francisco] Peninsula, and she handed me a flyer for the group that Claudio was starting. He was quite well-known as a Gestalt therapist—he had worked with Fritz Perls at Esalen. The flyer mentioned that he had also worked with Oscar Ichazo and that he was going to be starting a spiritual group that would include psychological work. I thought, “Great! That sounds really wonderful!” So I went to a very small gathering in his back yard in Berkeley—there must have been maybe 15 to 20 people there. He talked a little bit about what his ideas were for the group that he was starting, gave a brief introduction to the Enneagram, and then he did a transmission, looking each person around the circle in the eye. And I knew that this was it for me—that I had found what I didn’t fully know I was searching for!

    AI: What was his transmission like?
    SM: At the time, I was all of 20 or 21 years old, and to me he just seemed to be emanating “Being.” He felt magical. The transmission was silent. It was like what Hindu teachers call Shaktipat where they’re transmitting Shakti or spiritual energy to people. He felt like a real Teacher to me, and somebody who I really connected with immediately and wanted to work with. I had spent most of my high school years here in the Bay Area, and I had gone through the Haight-Ashbury hippie scene. So I was very open to something beyond the conventional world, and that was really what I was looking for. I was looking for an entrance into a realm beyond the normal one. His transmission was very powerful, and I knew the minute I saw him that I was meant to work with him.

    AI: Was Hameed in that first group?
    SM: Yes.

    AI: Did you know him before that?
    SM: No, I met him at the group. Some of us were still in college—I was in art school, and Hameed was in graduate school at U.C. Berkeley working on a doctorate in physics. Somehow, in those days, none of us seemed to be working—we had just tons of time on our hands. A core group of us formed a commune, and we worked on ourselves all day long, talking about our experience and processing with each other, and that was really how we learned the Enneagram.

    AI: Was this with Claudio as a teacher, or were you self-guided at that point?
    SM: No, we were part of his group, and the group met weekly.

    AI: So you were processing what was coming up in the group?
    SM: Yes. Claudio used the Enneagram extensively in the group, and we took that map and ran with it. We were really trying to flesh out the theory that Claudio was presenting to us, with our own experience. We learned from each other about what the things Claudio was describing actually felt like and looked like, and were like inside each of us.

    AI:There were about fifteen of you in the commune?
    SM: No, there were only six initially, and we kept finding ways to build more rooms!


  38. This will be part of my next IM product: Secret Viral Transmission Cash Machine Generator System with an upsell for master resale rights (offered after the optin, in the OTO).

    I have proof it works to bring in $48,485 per minute and I have a testimonial from Frank Kern

    1. @Mike Filscam, Will your package come with a pic of you rubbing up against Maria Andros? That would be the mother (fucker) of all bonuses.

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