James Arthur Ray Trial Updates
In October of 2009 :: James Arthur Ray’s $10,000 per head Spiritual Warrior seminar ended in calamity and tragedy. Three people were killed :: eighteen injured {many seriously} :: and thousands of followers were shocked to learn the true dark nature of the man they’d been paying large sums to follow.
James Arthur Ray’s trial for the manslaughter of James Shore :: Kirby Brown :: and Liz Neuman began March 1st 2011.
This page contains a summary of events :: important documents :: links :: and videos relating to the trial. It will be frequently updated with new information as the trial unfolds. Your participation is welcomed {/expected}.
The Sad Event
Ray’s faux “sweat lodge” occurred on the last day of the five day Spiritual Warrior seminar. In the early years of the Ray scam {2001 – 2005} :: Spiritual Warrior was the final seminar in a sequential series of ever more expensive events. Illustrated here by a graphic from one of Ray’s old sites …
But after the release of The Secret :: and his subsequent appearances on The Oprah :: Ray opened up all levels of The Journey of Power to anyone with a wallet. Still :: Spiritual Warrior was considered one of the “advanced” events :: and few {if any} participants at the 2009 fiasco were having their first James Arthur Ray experience.
A guide containing limited event information :: instructions :: and a very uncharitable liability waiver was mailed to participants in July 2009 …
As in almost all past iterations of the Spiritual Warrior “sweat lodge” :: multiple people ended up dangerously ill in 2009. But unlike past events :: in 2009 two participants died on site. The 911 call …
Ray made no efforts to help the sick or dying. Neither James Shore nor Kirby Brown ever started breathing again. Liz Neuman died in an Arizona hospital nine days later :: after spending a week in a coma.
By the time Liz died :: Ray had already returned to his scam seminar road show.
The Arrest
Yavapai County immediately commenced an extensive investigation into the matter. They interviewed most of the 2009 participants :: and a great many past participants. Ray’s lawyers submitted a memo to the county prosecutor’s office explaining how it was all just a terrible accident that had been “devastating” to Mr. Ray. The memo argued that Mr. Ray had not been criminally negligent in the three deaths.
The prosecutor and the grand jury disagreed :: and on February 3rd 2010 :: James Arthur Ray was arrested and charged with three counts of manslaughter.
Pre-trial
Ray’s bail was initially set at $5 million :: and he was unable to post the required bond. After a hearing to determine the status of his lack of harmonic wealth :: bail was reduced to $525,000. Once out on bail Ray immediately recommenced his remorseless and predatory marketing tactics.
His lawyers kept busy as well …
– Motions :: Memos :: and Orders — {links to pdf’s}
The defense filed multiple motions seeking to change the location of the trial :: the State replied :: the Court denied the request.
The defense sought to exclude the testimony of cult expert Rick Ross :: the State replied :: the Court will allow Ross’ testimony.
The defense filed a motion seeking to suppress evidence of Ray’s prior {bad} acts :: including evidence regarding past “sweat lodge” events gone wrong. The Court ruled partially in favor of that motion :: and the State requested reconsideration based on the relevance of the evidence to lesser included offenses.
Audio recordings of the 2009 Spiritual Warrior seminar were turned over to James Ray International after the State had executed its search warrant. When the State requested the recordings :: the defense refused to comply claiming a 5th Amendment protection. The State filed a motion to compel disclosure of the audios :: the defense plead the Fifth … and lost. The Court ordered disclosure of the audios.
Immediately after turning over the audios :: the defense filed a motion seeking to exclude them from evidence. The State didn’t like that idea :: and neither did the Court. The State’s motion for reconsideration of prior bad acts contains a partial transcript of those October 8th audio files.
In the final week before the trial :: Judge Darrow agreed to a request for live television coverage. Ray shouldn’t be too nervous :: he’s been on television before …
Find James Arthur Ray back on TV … this time on In Session :: as the triple manslaughter trial that he’s manifested upon himself plays out live.
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[ update 1 :: 2 March 2011 ]
– The Trial –
Opening day opens :: like seemingly all things legal :: delayed.
Opening statements didn’t begin until after the live TV coverage had ended :: but key parts were aired during the many lulls and delays of day two.
County Attorney Sheila Polk’s basic argument in her opening statement was that James Arthur Ray is totally guilty. She let Mr. Ray do most of that talking by playing damning chucks of Spiritual Warrior recordings that the State only recently received. Some of Mr. Ray’s greatest hits included …
- “I am god” {pause for effect}
- “… it’ll be hellacious hot”
- “Why do I have to be me? Why can’t I just do a weenie sweat lodge like everyone else?”
- “You’re going to feel like you’re dying … I guarantee it.”
Video — James Ray arrives with team California :: has trouble quashing his fear and repressing his rage :: and someone from CNN gets it EXACTLY right …
Luis Li’s open focused on the fact that the victims “were all adults”. They didn’t have to go into the “sweat lodge” :: and they didn’t have too stay.
Ray’s staff had been trained in CPR {a super useful skill as long people are willing to drop all the way dead}. There were hoses :: some fruit :: and some gatorade. By happenstance :: one of the unpaid volunteers was a nurse.
Li put up this graphic to illustrate Ray’s safety first approach …
What more could you want? People inside an enclosed space so hot that three people were killed had been pre-commanded to “remain alert” … done and done. Of course :: two of the people assigned to “help” were JRI’s own Josh Fredrickson and Greg Hartle. Hartle left after the fourth round {because it was a death trap} :: and Fredrickson smashed his head on one of the wood beams before himself leaving Mr. Shore :: Ms. Brown :: and Ms. Neuman to die. But that wouldn’t be a good thing to include in a defense open.
Li’s second safety first graphic was part of Ray’s pre-lodge instructions :: and was accompanied by the audio. The profanity was censored in the slide but not the audio :: and Li pre-apologized for it …
Don’t stampede :: it’s one of the first things in the OSHA handbook as well.
Apparently Li’s “they’re all adults” theory only applies to people dying in sweat boxes after 36 hours in the desert without food or sleep :: and not so much to members of the jury being subjected to ocular profanity.
Along with apologizing for Ray’s profanity :: Li showed how he’s totally not a city boy by repeatedly {like more than 10 times} referring to the victim pool as “folks”. They were just some folks :: folks like you and me. If folks wanted to live :: folks should have left the “sweat lodge” over fake god’s advice and gone to the watermelon station with Greg Hartle.
Then to the meat of the defense …
1. They didn’t die from heat stroke. An expert who didn’t examine the bodies will testify that it’s a possibility.
2. Maybe they were poisoned … or something.
Sounds good.
Good luck with that … God.
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[ update 2 :: 3 March 2011 ]
Death Ray lamely speaketh {some JAR audios used by the prosecution during opening statements} …
Once again, no one can talk to God … for any reason, except a priest. And I AM GOD. If you talk to god for any reason, you immediately die.
If death comes upon you, there is only one noble way to die, and that is,you fall immediately to the floor wherever you are. And of course because you’re dead, you cannot move a muscle …. ever. You cannot open you eyes … because you’re dead. You cannot scratch your nose, or shift your body in any way … because you’re dead.
opportunities … stole by sleep
Q: If you want to do this kinda as full on as possible would you recommend not sleeping?
A: Great question. Yes. Uhm, because again … many great opportunities and experiences can be stole by sleep.
You’ll be taken out in pitch darkness. You may have no flashlight. You may have no watch. You may have no cell phone or electronics of any kind. You can have no water, no food, or snacks. The only thing you might bring, which is really not traditional but I’m taking it easy on you, is you can bring your; sleeping bag, the clothes that you have on your back, your journal, and something to write with.
You know, how many of you by show of hands, have recognized by now that even if you bought into the grand illusion that you would come to Sedona, to the desert, and, you, I warned you in advanced it was intense. Have I kept my word so far? Yeah … well we’re just getting started. Cause today’s the day. Today’s the day to put your life on the line, and all that you stand for. But you see, I warned you as much as possible in advance. And I even tell ya before you sign up, hey if you’re not willing to do the work …
altered states … minus psychoactives
So here’s what’s going to happen, you will be in such an altered state, probably the most, you know… profound altered state you’ve ever been in minus psychoactives. Seriously, I mean, you, you may see visions.
And it’s such a great metaphor. You know? If you’ve been on this journey with me for any amount of time you there’s all kinds of physical metaphors. And there’s probably nothing greater than the lodge … my lodge. Because at some point in time you just have to let go and say, “if I’m going to die it’s okay. Because I don’t ever die … not really. My body dies, I don’t die. You most likely will feel like your skin is going to fall off of your body. It’s hot … hellacious hot.
And even though I’m leading the lodge, I guarantee you, every single year I approach the lodge with great respect. I’ve been anticipating it all day long, because by about the second or third round I’m thinking, “why the hell am I me?” {lols} Why couldn’t I just do a weenie ass lodge like someone else does? And the reason is because … when you emerge … you will be a different person. Because when you’ve faced your own death, you’ve stared it in the eyes and you’ve overcome it, then life’s never the same … it’s really just not. It’s just not.
… thus spoke zarathustra … or something.
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[ update 3 :: 4 March 2011 ]
Some TV personalities are wondering why a law firm like Munger Tolles & Olson would be handling this sort of criminal case. It seems curious :: and doesn’t exactly fit their profile …
Agreed!
Perhaps this graphic can help shed some light on the subject {and/or make things even more confusing} …
The photo is from James Ray International’s flickr stream :: according to the tags it was taken back stage at one of the Oprah tapings in 2007. On the left {in fur} is The Secret creator Rhonda Byrne. The text is from the acknowledgements to her new “book” :: The Power.
Everybody needs friends.
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[ update 4 :: 6 March 2011 ]
The first week of the James Arthur Ray trial saw the complete testimony of just two and half witnesses :: about forty more and it’ll be all over {better pull up a chair} …
Melissa Phillips was the first witness in the case :: her calm and extensive testimony outlined the events of the Spiritual Warrior seminar for the jury for the first time.
Ms. Phillips discovered Mr. Ray while viewing The Secret. She read his ghostwritten book :: and then started attending the seminars. She testified that the Spiritual Warrior event was the last event in her “Journey of Power” :: and that she had attended all the other seminars in the “pyramid”.
The defense objected to the “Journey of Power” language being introduced :: then they strenuously objected …
Sidebar …
Overruled!
The defense wants to frame each victim’s relationship with Ray exclusively in terms of Spiritual Warrior 2009. But that is ultimately not going to be possible :: because it’s not factual. Almost all of the witnesses will testify to a long and expensive entanglement with Ray’s scripted conditioning machine.
The Prescott Daily Courier {a local rag} recapped Ms. Phillips first day testimony :: and detailed another context setback for the defense’s only-2009 approach …
“According to Polk, Ray began conducting annual sweats in 2003 at Angel Valley. Each time, she said, he would make them hotter.
In 2005, she said, people got sick after the ceremony. At that point, Polk said, he cooled them down for a couple of years until 2007, when he again began to “ratchet up the heat.”
Polk alluded to a 2008 incident in which one participant was hurt, and of course to 2009, when three people died.
The pattern of increasing heat, she said, was critical to the state’s decision to charge Ray with manslaughter. In fact, she said it was “ultimately why Mr. Ray was charged.”
On these grounds Judge Darrow has decided to allow evidence regarding past “sweat lodge” debacles. A ruling which any lawyer who has examined the record should have been anticipating.
Ms. Phillips left the death box after the third round :: but then she returned not wanting to disappoint herself :: her fellow warriors :: or Mr. Ray. She was worried about the chaos and danger within the lodge :: particularly Kirby’s labored breathing and deliriously enthusiastic {shouted} words of encouragement. She vocalized her concerns :: but was ignored :: or deliriously repudiated.
Jennifer Haley’s testimony was 2nd :: and 4th :: and was interrupted several times by Jennifer Haley.
Ms. Haley was at Spiritual Warrior 2009 as a member of the “Dream Team” {unpaid labor in team t-shirts}. She testified that she’d been called there :: fittingly enough :: by her dreams :: even though she didn’t believe in certain parts of the ceremony :: all of which she says she explained to Mr. Ray in her “essay”. Jennifer had already completed her “Journey of Power” :: but perhaps she came up just a tad short of total enlightenment.
Jennifer Haley is a hair stylist by trade {one imagines you’ll have better luck booking appointments in the afternoon}. Jennifer was one of the official head shavers in Death Ray’s totally not cult like head shaving ritual. But James Ray can’t do weenie head shavings like someone else might do :: so he demanded that Ms. Haley remove the plastic guard and go bare clippers. She told him that was a bad idea :: people could get burned or gouged :: “JUST DO IT!!” :: she reenacted him shouting :: “so I did” :: she said … then she kinda giggled.
As Yakuru pointed out on Twitter :: according to police interviews Jennifer Haley was one of the people who did CPR on Kirby Brown while James Ray was walking around being cross-eyed and useless.
Ms. Haley’s testimony is set to resume on Tuesday.
Laura Tucker was the State’s third witness :: the bulk of her testimony was compelling and disturbing. Laura is a college educated auto industry consultant from CanadaLand. She too was on the home stretch of her “Journey of Power” :: as The Daily Courier recounts …
Spiritual Warrior was the only one of Ray’s workshops she had yet to finish in the year and a half she had spent absorbing his teachings.
“I was on a track,” Tucker said. “My personal development was important at that time. I wanted to complete the series.”
Ms. Tucker was the first to die in the “God” “game”. Lying motionless on the ground :: feeling defeated and experiencing physical pain :: didn’t help Laura to personally develop.
After the no-food no-water vision quest :: Ray’s pre “sweat lodge” instructions had put Tucker even more ill at ease. She :: and her shaved head :: entered the lodge with trepidation. Liz Neuman sat down near Laura :: and when Laura expressed her concerns :: Liz helped calm them. Liz instructed Laura :: and several others :: to stay close to the ground :: and to get into Child’s Pose facing away from the rock pit. To help stave off the dark-and-scarys :: Liz and Laura agreed to occasionally tap on each other throughout.
Liz is nice :: and Laura felt better … until the rocks came in {possibly up to 15 on the first round}. For the first three rounds Laura was sure she’d need to leave :: but she was able to balance herself and remain. It was :: after all :: the end of her Journey. She had played “full on” :: and still was. For herself :: and for all the other warriors she’d already sacrificed so much for :: head to the back of the tent … shallow breaths … Laura stayed.
But something was wrong with Liz. She got into Child Pose facing the pit :: a bad idea … and counter to advice she’d given just a few piles of hot rocks ago. Liz stopped tapping :: and Laura started getting worried. Liz moved from Child’s Pose and leaned back against the front of Laura’s legs. The extra weight was hard for Laura to bear :: and increased her concerns about Liz’s condition. She expressed these concerns to James Arthur Ray in between rounds and was ignored. She tried again a second time after the next round :: this time more assertively …
“James, it’s Laura. I’m concerned about Liz.”
Death Ray’s answer …
“Liz has done this before and she knows what she’s doing.”
You can’t “know how” to survive in a dangerously hostile and uncontrolled situation like this :: you either just do or you just don’t … Liz didn’t.
The defense had the opportunity to cross-examine both Ms. Phillips and Ms. Tucker. In both instances :: the cross served to further expose Ray’s evil shenanigans. Paraphrasing Mr. Kelly to Ms. Phillips …
“You said you heard Lou Caci’s scream … and it was like a boyish scream … is that correct?”
Answers Ms. Phillips …
“I believe I called it an inhumane scream.”
The defense rests.
At another point :: attempting to illustrate how Ms. Phillips was an adult who could decide for herself :: Mr. Kelly asked/implicated …
“But you did say you left your circle during the vision quest … correct?”
Without pause she answers {almost defensively} …
“Two fingers! Only two fingers when I lost my balance…”
The defense rests … again.
More dangerous for the defense is an undercurrent that says if James Arthur Ray is guilty of manslaughter based on his inaction during the lodge :: then so is Laura Tucker … and every other participant who sensed the situation was out of control but did not take the drastic action necessary to keep others alive :: and out of comas. Ms. Tucker didn’t take any action to save Ms. Neuman :: so obviously she didn’t think things were too serious. She was closer to Ms. Neuman :: so if she didn’t sense the direness of the situation :: then how could James Ray?
But that line of questions :: under the pressure of the cameras and the witness chair :: risks bringing someone to a brutal epiphany. “I knew she was in deep trouble … but I did nothing. She was my friend … and I did nothing … because I allowed myself to become servile to the greed of James Ray. Because he made me into not me … and I’m not proud of it.”
If the defense doesn’t provoke that reaction by over-reaching on cross :: it’s open to Ms. Polk at any time. On her redirect :: in the last of her questions :: Ms. Polk asked Laura Tucker if she was still haunted by the event. Laura said yes :: with her eyes and her mouth. Ms. Polk asked the question again two more times in sequence :: slightly different phraseology each time. The defense’s objections to the repeat questions were sustained … and Ms. Polk let it go.
The tear-filled-truthful answer to the question :: “why didn’t you do more to help?” :: won’t keep James Arthur Ray out of jail. Stanley Milgram’s famous {and oft repeated} experiment showed that a large majority of human’s will submit to the most dire of demands from just about anyone projecting the aura of authority. Follow is humanity’s default state. In this case :: the authority figure was not a random researcher in a lab coat :: but an intentionally manipulative con man backed by the compounding effects of a large group pre-screened of dissent. Within such a situation :: there can be no freedom but escape.
The truth is that Laura Tucker did do something so incredibly brave. No food and no water and no sleep and no warning :: her own life in danger :: Laura Tucker kept her **** together and called out an assertive and dissenting notice of the danger to the resident authority figure.
Laura did what she could do :: thanks Laura.
James Arthur Ray … did not.
>> bleep bloop
[ update 5 :: 8 March 2011 ]

Before Kirby Brown died in James Arthur Ray’s sacrilegious excuse for a sweat lodge :: she died in his god game. For hours she laid on the ground motionless :: freezing :: having to go to the bathroom so badly that she was swallowing down her own vomit.
She told James Ray and the other participants about her unpleasant god game experience during an open mic session that occurred just a few hours before the sweat lodge event. The prosecution wanted to play a portion of that tape for the jury to help show that Mr. Ray was on notice about the physical risks and discomforts his participants would be willing to endure in order to satisfy the “full on” mantra of his teachings. The defense objected to its admission because it would be prejudicial to allow the jury the to hear the voice of one of the dead victims.
Judge Darrow seemed concerned about the prejudice possibilities of the recording as well :: but stated {as previously} his preference for allowing evidence whenever possible. This was probably a close call :: and I’ll venture a pointless guess that it turned on the fact that Ray’s voice can be heard on the tape …
Kirby :: “… and then I puked … and then I sowllowed it down …”
Death Ray :: “wow”
Pretty strong evidence really :: so Judge Darrow allowed it over his own :: and the defenses :: concerns about its emotional nature.
Here’s the strange part :: the defense proceded to demand “context” … and so insisted that a huge portion of Kirby’s pre-death soliloquy to be played for the jury. The Judge pointed out that if 20 seconds {what the State wanted played} of a dead victims voice was prejudicial :: then surely 230 seconds that much more so … but no … they wanted them some “context” …
You can judge for yourself about the exculpatory value of the extra 200 seconds :: they mostly filled me with cry.
Eerily :: some of Kirby Brown’s last words …
“Our loved ones that have passed are there with us, and we can use them for help.”
Maybe :: but most definitely not in the same way as the ones who haven’t passed.
Kirby was obviously the kind of gal always looking for the bright-side :: maybe she could have see one here … cause I can’t.
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[ update 6 :: 10 March 2011 ]
The defense is convinced that the jury needs context. If they are going to hear audio recordings from Spiritual Warrior :: then they should hear full versions and not just clips chosen by the prosecutor.
That’s a fair point {and there’s a rule about it} :: it’s just that EVERYTHING that comes out of Ray’s mouth sounds so unbelievably vile and disgusting if your not already washed in his washings. Prosecutors aren’t selecting the worst clips to try and make Ray look bad :: they are selecting the clips that they think they can get admitted. Much of what’s on the tapes would not be admissible if introduced by the prosecution. The State can’t attempt to introduce evidence just to show that Mr. Ray is a big fat jerk {even though he is}.
But the defense :: by insisting on context and completeness :: is itself introducing masses of evidence highly damaging to their highly damaging client.
So for that … I say thank you to Munger Tolles & Olson.
Here :: at the defense’s insistance :: is the full 45 min presentation that James Arthur Ray made to participants just a few minutes before they went into the sweat lodge. Many “folks” didn’t know there was going to be a sweat lodge :: and this was their only instruction …
Context FTW!
The defense rests.
>> bleep bloop
[ update 7 :: 11 March 2011 ]
Jennifer Haley’s four day marathon of testimony started off strangely :: but ended strongly. During the first several hours it seemed a distinct possibility that Ms. Haley would float right out of the court room :: but she filled her boots with sand :: put on a blazer … and turned in a stellar performance for the truth. The truth :: aka the context :: is almost always bad for James Arthur Ray.
Ms. Haley had been to all the other Ray events :: including Spiritual Warrior 2007. She had also Dream Teamed previous events. By the time her dreams called her to the 2009 event :: she was starting to have her doubts about the fearless leader. Still :: something kept pulling her back … we’ll call it conditioning {since that’s what it was}.
While the participants were out on their no food no water vision quests :: the ladies of the Dream Team {including Ms. Haley and Ms. Neuman} went to Sedona and had pizza because the food at Angel Valley was terrible. They wanted to bring back a couple bottles of wine :: but along with terrible food Angel Valley sports a no-alcohol policy. Like the polite ladies they are :: they called back to Angel Valley and asked for permission to be adults.
Permission granted.
They had a few moments together :: drinking wine and talking … not much to ask considering that they were all putting in long hours doing “volunteer” labor at their own expense. But it was too much for Death Ray :: and he came storming out to chastise them for waking him up. How dare they laugh!
“Great opportunities can be stole by sleep” :: but James Arthur Ray was sleeping by 8pm.
Later :: when the nice lady laughter failed to subside to fake god satisfying levels :: he came out for a second round of scolding. This time he was meaner :: and more personal. He criticized them for drinking :: and told them that their “hearts weren’t in it.” Ms. Haley was offended :: everyone was offended. They talked about what to do and decided that they should confront Mr. Ray with their objections.
Once Ray got back in the room :: the plan changed as each expressed {often tearfully} what “they had learned” from disappointing Mr. Ray. Ms. Haley didn’t like the change of plans :: and went with her original plan of telling him she didn’t appreciate the poor treatment or the insults. Says the big bad guru man …
“Well if I’m going to be attacked them I’m leaving”
Then the other Dream Team members :: “all jumped on me” {half giggle} :: said Jennifer Haley.
Haley was feeling isolated and alone and says that Liz Neuman :: one of Ray’s original followers :: took the incident especially badly.
Truc Do tried to soften the sting of this story on cross examination :: but softening doesn’t seem to be her speciality. She foolishly asked Jennifer Haley to agree that this sad incident had nothing to do with Liz Neuman staying in the sweat lodge. Jennifer Haley did not agree. Ms. Do insisted :: so Ms. Haley also insisted that it absolutely had something to do with it. It was awesome! Ms. Do made the same mistake by tell-asking Ms. Haley about the likelihood that having your head shaved would make you more willing to stay in the lodge. Ms. Do forced Ms. Haley to insist that it was a reason for staying in the lodge. Ms. Haley said that in her experience as a hair dresser for 20 years :: women are especially vulnerable after changing their hair … and outside of camp Death Ray … she’d never done anything as drastic as a head shaving. Again … it was awesome! Had Ms. Polk tried to induce the same answers from Ms. Haley the defense’s objections would have been well sustained.
During the sweat lodge Jennifer Haley was stationed outside the lodge. She refused to be inside having had an unpleasant :: and dangerous :: experience in 2007. She had no medical training :: and was in no way prepared for her role as trauma nurse. But that didn’t stop her from asserting herself time and time again throughout that horrible afternoon. Forty five minutes of CPR on Kirby Brown :: getting vomit and dirt in her mouth :: doing her best with the worst … full on.

Dr. Nell Wagoner :: a gynecologist from Juneau Alaska :: was the State’s next witness. Dr. Wagoner had turned to Mr. Ray’s teachings while seeking to overcome a personal trauma. She was seated near the lodge opening :: very near to Mr. Ray. Dr. Wagoner witnessed at least five people being dragged out of the lodge unconscious. She was concerned when Lou Caci left the lodge badly injured :: but even more concerned when he was allowed to re-entered.
After the lodge :: Dr. Wagoner attempted to exit by going all the way around the circle in a clockwise fashion as per Death Ray’s pre-lodge instructions. The defense argues that this clockwise dictate was about safety :: but Dr. Wagoner testified that she thought it was more ceremonial. As she attempted to complete the ceremony :: one of the last to leave :: she noticed that the heat deeper within the lodge was far more overwhelming … and that three people were still unconscious on the ground. She told Mr. Ray that 911 should be called :: he said “it’s been taken care of”.
Dr. Wagoner saw Liz Neuman lying alone on the ground :: unconscious :: mouth foaming :: labored breathing … cold skin. She stayed with Liz until the paramedics arrived.
In Arizona :: after the lawyers are done questioning a witness :: the jury is given an opportunity to ask its own questions via the judge. The jury asked Dr. Wagoner if she noticed any emergency preparedness measures taken by either JRI or Angel Valley :: she said no.
The State’s next witness was Dennis Mehrevar. The Droid missed much of Mr. Mehrevar’s direct examination because the live feed was temporarily out of order :: but I already know the story. Dennis lost consciousness and was dragged out. He came to screaming and thinking he was dying :: James Ray didn’t care and just wanted him to shut up.
Luis Li’s cross of Mr. Mehrevar contained two :: almost unbelievably epic :: blunders. Mr. Li wanted Mr. Mehrevar to admit that :: like Mr. Ray :: he was offering “words of encouragement” to other participants about not leaving the lodge. Mr. Mehrevar said he wasn’t really being encouraging :: he was just parroting Mr. Ray’s words per the instructions. Mr. Li insisted that he was being encouraging :: and by doing so induced Dennis to say :: “I was just following what Mr. Ray was saying” … four consecutive times. I laughed :: but I’m sure Mr. Li won’t.
The second blunder was even more ridiculous. Li wanted Mr. Mehrevar to admit that if he had thought the situation was life threatening for others :: he obviously would have done something to stop the ceremony and get help. No dice. Dennis flat out says he wouldn’t have helped :: it wasn’t his place :: and in this situation he was totally concentrating on his own survival. Li :: shocked at the shockingness of this answer :: and trying to perform an emergency save … ended up soliciting the same response in several new ways including inserting himself into the hypothetical …
Q: “So if I was right here :: and you knew I was dying … you wouldn’t do anything to save me?”
A: “No.”
Once again … awesome.
Maybe {just maybe} it’s time for the defense attorneys in this case to face up to the FACT that extensive mind manipulation has been used against sympathetic citizens … and start acting {and lawyering} accordingly. Of course :: then they’d stop sucking … so I advise against it.
>> bleep bloop
[ Dr. Nell Wagoner 's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 9th} ]
[ Dennis Mehrevar's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 9th} {March 10th} ]
[ update 8 :: 15 March 2011 ]
Next witness!
The State calls Michael Olesen from :: you guessed it :: Canada.
Mr. Olesen was attending Spiritual Warrior with his wife :: but of course they lodged separately at camp Death Ray. Spouses talking is bad for mind control. Oh I’m sorry did I say mind control? Because I meant mind control.
Olesen described himself as a day trader :: he had been to several other Ray events which he had paid for in a package “deal” :: and he was an unimpressed member of the World Wealth Society. Mr. Olesen didn’t give the impression of man seeking enlightenment via woo woo :: he answered a question about his journaling with little more than a grunt and an eye roll.
Say NO to scrapbooking :: show me the money!
World Wealth Society was super good at the taking of the monies {$50Kish} :: but it wasn’t so good at the showing of the monies.
Mr. Olesen sat on the inner ring of the death lodge :: at the back. He was near his wife :: and directly in front of Lou Caci. After the fourth or fifth round he crawled and/or was dragged out. He spent one round cooling down :: and then went back in to the sweat hole where his wife remained. Things were not looking :: or sounding :: too good inside the lodge. Michael Olesen was concerned about everyone’s safety :: “but I wasn’t running the show.”
Before the last round Ray instructed everyone to lay down because the heat was going to be intense. Linda :: who was sitting near Olesen and Caci :: didn’t lie down. Olesen tried to help her but she seemed completely unresponsive. He was unable to move her :: and called out for some help. None came. James Ray told him to just leave her :: she’d be fine.
She wasn’t fine :: and after the lodge Michael Olesen noticed James Arthur Ray doing nothing while he and the participants bravely scurried to help each other.
At various times in his testimony Mr. Olesen described Mr. Ray as angry :: serious :: and intense. It’s not just fragile little ladies who got the idea you didn’t interrupt fake god during a fake ceremony.
Scammers :: especially large group scammers :: need to recruit professionals into their little clubs so that they can …
a) take their money
b) use them as legitimacy anchors for recruiting new members.
If a bunch of doctors and lawyers are doing it … then it must be all good. It’s not some crazy cult or something … look at all these fancy degrees. That’s not rational decision making because degrees offer no protection from evil schemes :: but not rational meets people where they’re at … and works like a charm.
Huckstering professionals is an excellent strategy :: right up until the moment you go on trial for manslaughter and they start testifying against you. Now the same legitimacy building mechanism you relied upon to bolster your scams is harnessed by the State to make their case {and the pool of victims and witnesses} feel more credible. That’s almost enough hilarious irony to uncross a set of heinously crossed eyes … but not quite.
Beverley Bunn :: an orthodontist from Dallas :: was just getting started on her James Arthur Ray experience. She’d only been to one other event :: and she wasn’t sure she was going to attend Spiritual Warrior. Dr. Bunn testified that a couple of calls from Michelle Goulet had finally closed her on the deal {a “service” Michelle often performed}. She showed up too late for the group waiver signing :: and so signed her’s alone in the Angel Valley offices. She didn’t read them :: but that didn’t keep the defense from going on and on about them during cross.
Dr. Bunn was Kirby Brown’s roommate during Spiritual Warrior :: she described her as upbeat and excited about participating in events. Dr. Bunn discussed her reluctance to participate in the head shaving with Kirby.
“There were always comments” :: from James Arthur Ray about those who hadn’t shaved their heads :: said Dr. Bunn. Early in the retreat people were assigned a Dream Team member to work with them on their various problems and intentions. Beverley Bunn was instructed by Mr. Ray that she was to work exclusively with him. When she tried to talk with him about her struggles regarding the head shaving he said …
“I don’t give a fuck what you do. Shave your head … don’t shave your head … doesn’t really matter.”
Nice. And where do I sign up to give you more monies?
She did shave her head :: on the last day :: “full on”. Just a few days later Dr. Bunn defied her “vanity” again by being the first :: and one of the only :: victims willing to bald-headedly describe the scary situation inside the death lodge to the national press :: “fuller on”.
Dr. Bunn’s memories of the death lodge were detailed and precise. She had far better recall of events than previous witnesses :: remembering details like the number of rocks Mr. Ray called for in between rounds :: and the precise locations of many other participants within the lodge.
12 rocks & 5 gallons of water in each of the first two rounds. It was too hot :: at the end of the third round she decided that the next round would be her last. Midway through that round she started to worry that she wasn’t going to have enough strength left to crawl out. But she was wrong :: when the flap opened she still had enough go juice to make it to the door.
But Death Ray was there :: and he tried to stop her :: “especially you are better than this … it’s just mind over matter.” Much to her future self’s dismay :: she stayed. Many other minds succumbed to matter as Dr. Bunn remembers :: like Dr. Wagoner :: multiple people being dragged out limp unconscious.
After the sixth round things started to get crazy. There’s a clear warning that some one is not breathing :: lots of people start screaming out to each other. Fake god aggressively demands silence :: “I’m in charge” :: “this round is beginning … we’ll deal with that in the next round” :: flap closes {on Kriby’s life}.
According to Dr. Bunn things were quieter in the lodge after that. Those who were still alive mostly focused on remaining so.
After the lodge James Arthur Ray was the first out :: but Dr. Bunn didn’t leave for another 7-10 minutes as she struggled to help move some other bodies out of the sweltering heat. Outside the lodge Dr. Bunn went from victim to victim making assessments and doing what she could to help. Sidney Spencer was completely non-responsive and her eyes were rolled back into her head. It looked like all the blood vessels in Stephen Ray’s eyes had burst. Some lady was lying unconscious on her side :: completely cutting off circulation to her now blue arm.
Dr. Bunn could tell CPR was being done on the backside of the sweat lodge. Through the chaos :: she could see Kriby’s bikini rising and falling with the forced respirations. Recall of this horror was more than Dr. Bunn could bear :: and she lost her day long struggle to hold back her still raw emotions.
It was pretty clear from Dr. Bunn’s testimony that she knew there was an ongoing medical disaster before the lodge was over. She kept waiting for Ray to do something about it :: and he never did. She also stated the reasons for her own inaction quite clearly :: she was a participant not a leader :: and it had been made very clear that no one was to question James Arthur Ray.
Beverley Bunn’s testimony was devastating :: I’ll bet James Arthur Ray “gives a fuck” now.
>> bleep bleep
[ Michael Oleson :: live blog archive :: {March 10th} ]
[ Dr. Bunn's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 13th} {March 15th} ]
[ update 9 :: 15 March 2011 ]
James Arthur Ray asks that you not miss Yoga … or else!
Adults were “free to choose” :: unless they did.
>> bloop
[ update 10 :: 17 March 2011 ]

James Shore had a wife and three kids.
Three tiny :: little :: still needing their daddy :: baby kids.
Unlike James Ray :: James Shore was trying to help persons in distress … he died like that.
Unlike James Ray :: James Shore was a spiritual warrior.
James Shore … enlightenment without distraction
Don’t be numb to the horror.
>> bleep bleep
[ update 12 :: 25 March 2011 ]
Objection!
But I haven’t said anything y–
Objection!
Overruled.
Please excuse me while I narrate :: speculate :: and lead my way through several witnesses without any interruption from grumpy old men or L.A. snobs.
Mr. Kelly’s cross examination of Beverley Bunn was full of hostile. This exchange best sums up how that hostility went for the defense …
Mr. Kelly :: “Nobody was dragged into the sweat lodge … correct?”
Dr. Bunn :: ”Just out …”
And there you have it. The answer was sticken from the record :: but no it wasn’t.
Mr. Kelly spent an entire afternoon badgering Dr. Bunn :: a victim whether or not James Ray is a criminal :: and revealed not a single fact useful to his client. His unwarranted assertion that Dr. Bunn had exaggerated about Ray’s hostility and public shaming of a participant who missed Yoga led to the revealing audio posted above being played for the jury.
Mr. Kelly did manage to confuse Dr. Bunn into saying that she may have misquoted Ray :: but that was quickly cleared up on re-direct by Mr. Hughes. Her misquote only existed in Tom Kelly’s dull imagination.

Stephen Ray thought that Spiritual Warrior was all about getting direct access to James Ray. He had attended most of Ray’s other events :: and had paid $14,000 for a package of seminars that included Spiritual Warrior 2008. He was unable to attend that event :: and paid a completely unreasonable $500 “change fee” to transfer his attendance to the 2009 event.
One of the things that Stephen Ray admired about James Arthur Ray was his “impeccable attention to detail”. Stephen testified that James Ray mentioned the sweat lodge was built to his personal specifications. Stephen Ray trusted that James Arthur Ray would keep him safe :: and that he wasn’t actually risking death by going into the sweat lodge.
The events on the Journey of Power had increased in intensity {a fact accidentally introduced by Truc Do during cross}. And the various events at Spiritual Warrior 2009 were increasing in intensity. The sweat lodge was the last activity :: and even though he was in a near panic thinking about the hot enclosed space … Stephen Ray entered the doomed structure.
S.Ray had dreams he was being water boarded. He woke up in the hospital :: life changed for the not better. Harmonic Renal Failure and Harmonic Acute Brain Hypoxia.
Stephen Ray’s health problems continue today :: he doesn’t have health insurance … or a $5 million home in Beverly Hills.

Lou Caci and James Arthur Ray had been friends for a long time. They met at a Tony Robbins seminar in 1995 :: and Mr. Caci has been attending Ray events on and off ever since. Lou was convinced that playing “full on” would help him achieve things in his real life :: and he didn’t want to be seen as a failure in the eyes of James Ray.
The lodge started off badly for Mr. Caci :: and quickly got worse. By the end of the 4th round Lou was delirious :: when the flap opened he headed straight for it :: falling into the pit of hot rocks. After that his testimony was pretty much factually worthless :: all a blur of pain splotchy memory.
Lou kinda remembers getting medical aid from Melinda Martin :: and he vaguely remembers Jennifer Haley telling him not to go back inside the lodge. But he did go back into the lodge :: walking right past his “friend” James Ray. Lou’s bandaged :: burned :: and in no condition to be playing fake shaman games. James Ray was in Lou’s wedding party. Less than an hour before Lou was screaming out :: all but unconscious in the rock pit :: yet Ray invites him back in like a piece of meat.
Once back inside the lodge :: and even in his impaired state :: Lou Caci has a very clear memory of seeing Liz Neuman lying on Laura Tucker … breathing slow and heavy. Liz had been a follower of Ray for almost as long Caci :: so they’d been at events together numerous times over the years. Lou lost his father and brother to illness :: and he compared Liz’s labored breathing to their final breaths.
People were dying in that sweat lodge. Lou Caci :: with his cooked brain :: lacerated hand :: and burned arm … could tell that people were dying. James Arthur Ray sat by the door {fully hydrated} breathing freely and having cool water splashed upon himself. James Ray knew people were dying … and he closed the flap.
>> bloop bleep
[ Stephen Ray's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 15th} {March 16th} ]
[ Lou Caci's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 16th} {March 17th} ]
[ update 13 :: 28 March 2011 ]
The State calls Dr. Jeanne Armstrong …

Dr. Armstrong is a non-practicing family doctor from Indiana. She was introduced to Death Ray by Oprah :: who pretends to care about her viewers … but clearly doesn’t. Prior to the sweat lodge Dr. Armstrong had attended approximately five other Ray events. When Ray came to Indianapolis in July of 2009 :: Dr. Armstrong helped promote him. Even after the sweat lodge Dr. Armstrong seemed to maintain some of her faith in Ray.
Jeanne Armstrong {and her non-cult shaved head} sat near the door of the lodge :: and while not generally enjoying the experience :: she suffered little and wasn’t concerned for her own health during or after the event. When the flap was open between rounds :: there was some air flow :: so things were less dreadful by the door. In spite of this :: Dr. Armstrong seems to have missed witnessing some of the most incriminating events within the lodge. The jury asked her if it was possible she slept through the middle rounds.
Dr. Armstrong was set to be a star witness for defense. She was prepared to testify that she asked James Arthur Ray if there was an Automatic External Defibrillator around :: and that he walked off and failed to find one {hero!}. Doesn’t sound like much {because it isn’t} :: but the defense doesn’t have much. “Hey look, he kinda maybe did something … sort of.” But the prosecution called her before the defense got a chance. Truc Do tried to point out to the jury that her witness had got stoled by asking Dr. Armstrong stupid questions about how she was there “by subpoena”. Doubt the jury caught that :: or cared.
Dr. Armstrong gave the impression of someone who still has soft spot for James Arthur Ray. She is not prepared to see herself as manipulated :: and so is likely not prepared to view Ray as an evil :: conscious :: and intentional manipulator. But she also didn’t seem like a liar :: out to protect Mr. Ray at the expense of the truth.
Dr. Armstrong told her version of the truth … it’s not fair to ask for more than that. Death Ray fogged minds :: that was his deal. People shouldn’t be judged harshly for the lingering fog. We don’t know what hurts :: and haunts :: other souls. All external information sets are incomplete.
In spite of Dr. Armstrong’s incomplete hatred of Ray :: her testimony actually turned out pretty badly for him. She pointed out to Truc Do that the Dream Team weren’t really safety agents … but more like other participants. The defense likes to describe victims as “foaming at the mouth” because that sort of supports their super terrific poisoning theory. When Ms. Do asked Dr. Armstrong about the “foaming” she was corrected. Dr. Armstrong thought it looked more like “frothy sputum” … which is consistent with heat stroke.
Several days later Ms. Polk told Judge Darrow during legal arguments that Dr. Armstrong was called to help start laying the medical foundation for the heat causation portion of the prosecution’s case {something Dr. Armstrong did quite nicely}. Mr. Kelly strenuously objected that he didn’t know that’s what had happened :: which was stupid :: and funny :: and not a real objection.
[ Dr. Armstrong's testimony :: live blog archive :: {March 17th} {March 18th} ]
>> bleep bleep
[ update 14 :: 29 March 2011 ]
Laurie Gennari no like them cameras :: so at her request :: they looked away during her testimony :: forcing the public to watch James Arthur Ray squirm uncomfortably in his chair for hours on end. The chair was likely even more uncomfortable. Because everything is energy :: this chair … this old scammers decrepit body … this LA Lawyer … this water bottle … this thumb ring … this hair cut … ENERGY!
Laurie Gennari also no like James Arthur Ray. Before the jury had had a chance to ask themselves :: “did that last lady actually still like this creepy weirdo?” :: Laurie was on the stand telling them that she thought Ray’s teachings were mostly crap where you just kept waiting for the good stuff that never came … but the “Jekyll & Hyde moment” was definitely coming.
Objection!
Sustained. The jury will forget that the witness said :: and very much meant :: and was totally right about :: this whole Jekyll & Hyde situation.
Almost everything Laurie said was wicked bad for Death Ray :: cause Laurie is super smart :: and she knows she got scammed … “full on”. That’s a scary bad combo for James Ray.
Laurie entered the lodge with Laura Tucker :: and they sat together until Ray inserted Liz Neuman between them to align with the moon gods of safety … or whatever.
“I had suspended normal me in order to have this experience. From where I am now it just sounds stupid.”
By the middle rounds things were getting crazy. Laurie was lying flat … digging her hand under the lodge for relief. Liz didn’t look good. Laurie heard Laura ask James Ray about Liz :: and she demonstrated the slow and slurred way that Liz said “no, no, no” she didn’t want to leave the lodge.
Liz did need to leave the lodge. Laurie Gennari knows that now :: and pretty much knew it then. But Laurie wasn’t herself that day because James Ray had stole her away :: and locked her behind a set of rules that she never got a chance to contemplate. The waiver didn’t disclose that mind manipulation had been Death Ray’s sole purpose for Spiritual Warrior. And Laurie was panicking :: she wanted to save Laurie.
Ms. Gennari decides she needs to leave :: Ms. Tucker has a very desperate and scary situation on her hands … and yet she wants Laurie to do whatever Laurie needs to do. Laura Tucker … such a nice lady.
Laurie gets almost to the door :: and then James Arthur Ray stops her. ”Too late … door’s closing.”
Door closes.
She collapses to ground … whimpering.
Laurie Gennari :: like Liz :: needed to leave. After she didn’t … she blacked out. She remembers being “thrown out” of the lodge after almost everyone else had cleared out. Laurie is disoriented and takes a bucket of water up the nose. There’s mud caked all over her eyes and she’s a bit freaked.
Along comes Laura Tucker. She wipes the mud off of Laurie’s eyes and they wrap up in a blanket together for a moment because by now it’s getting cold. Stephen Ray is laying right of front of the ladies :: looking scary horrible and not responding. Laura {again … being such nice lady} tells Laurie to go to Stephen Ray. Laurie does. Stephen’s hands feel dead. Laurie stays with Stephen until the paramedics haul him off to the helicopter.
Laurie wishes that she would have saved Liz. Laurie thinks saving Liz was much more a Laurie move than not saving Liz. But whatever :: I wish I would have gone to the Harmonic Wealth Weekend held in Chicago July of 2009 and hit James Ray over the head with a chair … but I didn’t. I wish I had started writing about James Ray a year earlier … but I hadn’t. These horrors not my fault either. Only one person could have prevented these deaths … and he didn’t.
On cross Mr. Li managed to get Laurie to say :: ”I was there to follow the program. I’d paid enormous piles to be there.” So that was helpful. He tried to “impeach” Ms. Gennari and show her as a liar. I’m not sure how that makes sense … because half-a-dozen witnesses have already testified to the same basic fact pattern with very little variance. She’s obviously not a liar. And the most damaging part of her testimony was her hindsight self-awareness :: a non-factual issue unpossible to impeach :: which Mr. Li continually drew attention to by asking Laurie to compare her testimony to her original police interviews … only the tone had changed.
Li’s questions allowed Ms. Polk to ask Laurie Gennari directly about how and why her opinions about Mr. Ray have changed. Laurie explained the mind manipulation about as well as it can be explained … and it was horrible for James Ray. Thanks to yet another useless cross for opening it up.
[ Laurie Gennari's testimony live blog archive :: {March 18th} {March 22nd} ]
>> bleep bloop
The Salty Droid is blogging the trial in real time on the twitters. Except for …
- the spam
- the censorship
- the rampant vapidity of most users
- the lack of presentation options
- the constant technical fails
- the non-searchable “archives”
- the incessant spewing of con men and murderers
… twitter is great fun.
If you liked AOL :: you’ll love u some twitter.
Anywayz :: new plan …
Live blogging transferred from Twitter to the blog at the end of each day. Those posts :: like this one :: will continue to grow as supporting materials and elaboration are necessary.
The bulk of the writing on this page will now be reserved for painting the broad-strokes of this horror. Discussion of the individual days :: witnesses :: and trial shenanigans :: will be moved to the live blogging pages. Please try to contribute in the comments along a similar fashion. Big stuff here :: specific stuff there. That should improve things :: right now this page is confusing to follow even for all knowing fake robots.
Please continue with {or increase} your excellent contributions {but spread them around}.
This site has become an important record of something important … and I’m proud to be 20% of why it’s so great.
>> bleep bleep
… to be continued.



















[...] James Arthur Ray Trial Updates [...]
I LOVE this page! Bravo Salty – it’s beautiful! I am anxiously awaiting the Opening Arguments to start on TruTV…..if anyone doesn’t know, the whole trial will be covered on “In Session” on TruTV everyday until the end, starting today….Tune in, Friends !
Salty, once again, you’re the best :-) Great Page !!!!!
WINNER!! ::
+17
[Reply]
I second Moxie’s comment. I’m really glad you’re doing this.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Check out Elizabeth Erwin’s Death Ray trial twittering {if you’re not banned from twitter} …
http://twitter.com/elizabetherwin
AP reporter Felicia Fonseca :: whose super useful Ray articles have been running in papers all over the country since the event …
http://twitter.com/FonsecaAP
The best way to watch the trial is on CNN’s live feed {sometimes} …
http://live.cnn.com/
… it’s streaming … so it’s only on when court is in session.
[Reply]
New Rulings just came up from the judge:
1) Jame’s reply to try to keep audio recordings out: http://bit.ly/eeZ0pX
2) James is still whining about Excluding Prior Acts: http://bit.ly/gPDl24
3) State Responds to point out this is Ridiculous and not timely (appropriate): http://bit.ly/fy7Vsz
We’re still waiting for the ruling on PRIOR ACTS. They are moving to a room on a lower floor to have a closed-door hearing on this, and there are no cameras in that room so we will have to wait until that hearing is over to find out what that ruling is. This is a pretty crucial ruling as it could re-instate in the LONG LIST of witnesses, and would totally be a huge PLUS for the Prosecution.
That’s all for now friends !
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
@Moxie,
Nothing shows up for me except a black screen on all three of those. Anyone have any ideas?
[Reply]
Hope this works!
How’s that for balance
[Reply]
StechDoes Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 1:23 pm
@StechDoes,
alright damn it, I’ve seen other people embed stuff on this blog but apparently I don’t know how so here’s a link to it
http://stechdoes.com/image.axd?picture=2011%2f3%2fray_scale.jpeg
Droid if you want to fix this – delete it – whatever.
[Reply]
Jack Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 1:43 pm
@StechDoes, Put it on flickr first and then can paste direct url and it will embed auto.
[Reply]
StechDoes Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 1:50 pm
@Jack,
One more try we’ll call it a learning experience
How’s that for balance
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 9:01 pm
@StechDoes,
Balance is bogus, but this scale is PURE WIN!
[Reply]
StechDoes Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 1:50 pm
@Jack, thanks Jack
[Reply]
[...] for the trial [still empty space for my updates] and for excellent coverage see Salty Droid’s James Ray Trial Updates page, with extensive background [...]
Turn on HLN – they are showing the opening arguments right now – Live coverage. They do flip from one news story to another, however right now they have stopped and are focusing just on the James Ray case. The Prosecution is talking now….then you will hear from the Defense. Just keeping ya posted friends !
[Reply]
is there a link that people at the other end of the earth can view the trial on? We are all very interested.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 5:02 pm
@Heysue, Here is all day LIVE coverage, all Courtroom, uninterrupted.
http://live.cnn.com/
It’s CNN Live coverage.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Heysue Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 3:06 am
@Moxie, Bewdiful, now I have a real reality show to watch.
[Reply]
Try these links if you cannot get it on TV…..
http://bit.ly/eU1m
NOTE WHERE IT SAYS “WATCH THE TRIAL LIVE”
http://bit.ly/i4gpfJ
http://bit.ly/i7T4PV
Hope this helps !
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 1st, 2011 at 5:03 pm
@Moxie, Sorry guys that one of these links is bogus….I tried my best!
[Reply]
All I can add is, Go Salty! On my blog I’ve linked to this page as the go-to place for James Arthur Ray trial updates. Due to my own limitations I won’t be able to watch it all — I don’t have cable or satellite TV, and out here in the sticks I am on satellite Internet, the provider of which is very stingy with bandwidth. But I will be watching videos and reading updates.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
@SD, Thank you Salty, amazing work!
WINNER!! ::
+25
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:48 pm
@Bryan Neuman ::
… stay strong Boba Fett
[Reply]
1234567 Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
@Bryan Neuman, It is nice to know that we can count on Saltydroid to bring it home…nice work.
[Reply]
Thanks Salty! I am Colleen’s cousin and I appreciate everything you have done over the past year and months since the deaths at the sweat lodge and Colleen’s tragic death. I cannot thank you enough for bringing to light all of the awful things that James Ray has done and with your help he will hopefully pay and suffer. Thanks again! Christie
WINNER!! ::
+32
[Reply]
Dave Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:54 am
@Christie, Welcome to the SD site. All of us “haters” hope Colleen’s family can also find some justice from the outcome of the current trial, and we hope the SD County folks open a full investigation into Colleen’s death as well.
WINNER!! ::
+16
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:38 am
@Christie, What @Dave said. We want justice for Colleen too, and we won’t forget her.
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:43 pm
@Christie ::
You are most welcome!
Colleen was the tragic canary in the coal mine. This trial could have been about her death :: and then the “sweat lodge” wouldn’t have happened.
http://saltydroid.info/category/colleen-conaway/
EpicFail California “Government”!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 8:54 am
@Christie,
Colleen and the other victims are always on my mind. I’m so glad that Mr. Salty has provided a place for us to gather with our torches and pitchforks.
There should have been a full investigation immediately after Colleen’s death. How awful that he and his people just acted like nothing happened.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
@Christie, Nobody has forgotten Coleen…..have you tried to have the investigation re-opened with the San Diego Police? Now would be a good time, since the trial is going on. They have no excluse not to re-open it, since you are the family asking. I’m just curious.
You are all in our prayers in this Tragedy….we look at it as 4 deaths under James Ray, not just 3. Coleen is not forgotten….Justice will Flourish for her as well :-)
[Reply]
Excellent work, ‘droid…I will also create a link to this as the go-to place for trial information. I sincerely appreciate you doing this.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
This link takes you to the case filings/rulings and is updated: http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/default.aspx
Great tweet from HandfulofRice yesterday: “Sounds like JamesRay defense attorneys used LeeKuanMajor as a consultant”
WINNER!! ::
+12
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:46 pm
@Jean D ::
Hopefully they will also occasionally turn on him in moments of rage :: and spend 25% of their time fixating on Conan O’brien …
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 3:07 am
@SD, LMBO!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
@Jean D,
LeeKuan is unintentionally hilarious. He should be the poster boy for something, just not quite sure what.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 11:35 am
@Hippo, Insane Troll of the Century.
[Reply]
Babzilicious Reply:
May 16th, 2011 at 8:54 pm
@Jean D,
You know LeeKuan’s been leaving messages all over the place in various articles, under different names …
[Reply]
Hey is this a new name for the list? He looks like a whole new winner!
httpee://mymillionairementor2011.com
[Reply]
StechDeos Reply:
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:06 pm
@StechDeos, Ummm guys that’s umm SARCASM for those of you who neg’d my post
[Reply]
Lynne LaMaster on today’s pre-trial stuffs ::
http://www.prescottenews.com/news/current-news/item/17841-pretrial-arguments-reveal-new-information-in-james-ray-case
Local news footage of the first witness :: Melissa Phillips …
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/sedona/first-witness-takes-stand-in-james-ray-trial
CNN is going to devote more resources to the story via HLN …
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/02/hln-to-investigate-trial-of-famed-self-help-guru-james-ray/
[Reply]
Is Ray suggesting that the participants were poisoned by the food at Angel Valley? Good luck with that.
[Reply]
Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 11:31 am
@Hippo, Hi Hippo, he was referring to the tarp and wood that Angel Valley provided.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 1:17 pm
@Bryan Neuman,
Oh, well, it has to be Angel Valley’s fault somehow. Yeah, the wood, that’s it.
Maybe it was the rocks?
[Reply]
Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 8:59 pm
@Hippo,
Musta been the vibration. They didn’t have enough crystals on the property, that’s it.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 11:15 pm
@Hippo,
I think we will all like this article ” Prosecution pokes first holes in Sweat Lodge Defense”
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/sedona/prosecution-pokes-first-holes-in-sweat-lodge-defense
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 8:45 am
@wondering why,
You’re right–that is a good article!
“Poison from the soil” — OMG, another great defense from Ray’s team.
Seriously, can you get poisoned from sitting on the ground?
That’s pretty retarded–except that they’re just trying to raise enough reasonable doubt to get their boy off the hook.
Hopefully, with enough testimony from eyewitnesses, combined with testimony from a medical doctor about disorientation, and from a cult expert about blind obedience, nobody will believe Ray’s claims.
I don’t know how some lawyers sleep at night. Ugh.
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
@Hippo, It is absolutely absurd that this JAr still breathes…sleeps…talks…walks..and has the addacity to act like he is not at fault. These people under his influence were not in their right minds….James shore did not want to leave his children behind, Liz Neuman did not want to leave her children behind, Kirby Brown doid not want to leave her family, friends and dreams behind…definitely not in the dirt@! F—! JAr, he makes me sick just watching him squirm in his seat in court . I can gurantee that if you or I showed up to see our friend, loved one, just 5mins before entering that tent….I bet they would not even regonize who we were.
The lawyers representing JAr are a joke….their opening comments after the audio tapes were played, he didn’t have a clue how to carry on from there. Good for JAr to get idiots to represent him…better for the friends and familyof the victims who want to see him get a whole new one in the gorgeous orange he looks good in with his self- tan fading…hair plugs gone, and I am sure they will take all his supplements as well. Hopefully outside his cell he can look out at the sweat lodge that graces the grounds of almost every prison in this country….just to remind himself of what a selfish meglamaniac this guy is. Too bad his minister daddy didn’t love him that he had to go through his life causing misery for others. What An ASSHOLE!
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:51 pm
@soulsista,
I can’t bring myself to watch any of his material. Even though I never heard of him before the sweat lodge, I have some type of post-traumatic stress reaction when I hear him speak.
He must be triggering memories of times that I fell for other people’s BS. It’s surprisingly distressing, considering that I have no direct connection to this man or this case.
[Reply]
Great post — that’s the spirit!
The Droid is on it.
[Reply]
The California government protects it LIARS.
Have you seen the garbage that comes from the
“I’ll promise to change your LIFE industry” BARF.
Why would they want the ENLIGHTENED few to goto jail.
they need
Scientology and a whole lot more
Drug’ed out Creatives (actors and more sleazy versions of talent)
Self- Help Gurus (and every other god-like industry where u get paid to PREACH not Teach)
Magic Medicine People (that have BS Pills always in stock)
Things will change I HAVE FAITH in that.
Although it might not be through court…
possibly through the second coming… (of pissed off people) <= which is the theme for 2011.
PROTEST and you Shall Get the WAY!
[Reply]
California Government Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 4:37 am
Make that MOST governments… (would hate to miss out on UTAH and WASHINGTON too)
[Reply]
I’m pretty certain Niels Bohr (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr) is madder than hell that this scumbag “snake oiled” his and many others’ life work.
Hopefully Ray will get a full understanding of how the AZ Penal System “participants” er… rapists and fellow murderers define “a field of energy at a rate of vibration” in the showers.
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:32 pm
@DadAtOrchestraConcert, That is what I am talking about!
[Reply]
Melissa Phillips is doing great … must be so scary
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 2:11 pm
@SD,
She really is..She seems calmed and collected and is not getting at all flustered..
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:43 pm
@SD, Doing Great? She seems like she might be cursed by the international laws of JR
[Reply]
When found guilty… They should make the asshole die from his own program.
[Reply]
My Favorite Secret Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 12:02 am
@Sheldon, yes – he should be sentenced to an eternal sweat lodge. Plus he should have to listen to a never ending loop of his own nonsense as he plays “full on”
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:41 pm
@My Favorite Secret, We should take him this year to the day 10/03/11 thru the whole 4 day BS he gave our friends…but make him reallllly play full on….let him stay on the concrete floor playing dead for …well, the total amount of time he let his partcipants(all the time between them together) be dead and not go to dinner before sending them to the desert….then to a BS buffet….for a one of a kind JAR sweatlodge…just big enough for one…AGHHHHHHHH I am PISSed Off. But it is time to take a deep breath, ask for forgiveness, BLAH, BLAH,BLAH. Hanging him from his tits over his own audio tapes over an open pit of 55 rocks covered with his own ‘lil “spiritual” Shananahh of the most NON spiritual events I have ever come across in my whole entire life.. MAkes Me Sick. In words of my own lil GURu “Are you F’n Kidding Me?”
[Reply]
Maybe I should be taking occasional breaks to talk about Miley Cyrus … apparently that’s how the pros do it. Gosh her family has had so many sad troubles what with all their free monies.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 10:51 pm
@SD,
Miley Cyrus? Nah, I think you should talk about Charlie Sheen.
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:45 pm
@Hippo, Why not the Olson Twins?
[Reply]
I just read this article below..Does it look like the State still might be able to call upon prior sweat lodge participants as witnesses after all?
http://www.dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=91227
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 2:58 pm
@wondering why ::
Yep!
… very good news.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 6:54 pm
@SD,
Yay..thanks, Salty..
[Reply]
Jack Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 4:02 pm
@wondering why, Awesomeness instead of ridiculousness. Finally!
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@wondering why,
This makes my day, thank you.
WINNER!! ::
+18
[Reply]
PK Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
@Bryan Neuman, To this could be added the thousands of others across the world whose lives have been irrevocably changed by the actions of the people on the secret. People who took it upon themselves to coerce and manipulate because they wanted grand mansions, feraris, airplanes and condos … in their dreams.
I bet they are thinking that the old life might have been slightly less financially viable but a hell of a lot more peaceful about now. I notice JRs aussie mate Schirmer is keeping very quiet this time around, no money to be made hanging of JR now so they have all scattered. How ironic and how telling.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
“The prosecution has said Ray conditioned participants to trust him to the extent that they disregarded signs of danger”
The self help industry preachers practice this method and to date nobody has stopped them, why?
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Nice job Droid.
Great insight. You definitely paid attention at robot law school.
Looking forward to the updates.
[Reply]
What I don’t get is why Ray’s attorneys are harping constantly about the participants should have all taken personal responsibility for their actions. They should have left, they should have listened to their survival instincts etc. Yet they say the deaths were an “accident.”
In opening arguments, Li was talking about how a good human being would help a person hurting next to them, asking the jurors, “Wouldn’t you stop immediately and help an injured or person about to die?” Yet Ray didn’t stop the ceremony when the gentlemen was burned severely.
They talk about free will. But when the experts take the stand and talk about how the participants free will was taken away by Ray in a multitude of ways through manipulation, hunger, lack of rest etc. The prosecutors should be able to blow that defense out of the water.
Ray’s lawyers are depending on smoke and mirrors.
WINNER!! ::
+20
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 6:52 pm
@Detached observer,
I agree..I don’t think the defense’s arguments make a lot of sense.If Ray hadn’t made it so freakin’ hot in the sweat lodge in the first nobody would have even had to make the decision to leave or not as it would have been safe enough to stay inside..James Ray did NOT make it safe..End of story! He had his own agenda which was to make it so hot that people would be too close to death, that is what he was aiming for..
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 10:04 pm
@wondering why, Hi ww,good to see you posting again.This was a lethal combination of temperature and time inside. What stands out for me is how Ray kept reassuring participants he had done this activity many times himself and how the experience was so good for them. He promised them they would not die!! The only thing this messiah complexed botox-face monster has ever known is manipulation and sales. No matter what the outcome for others, Always Be Closing, Always Be Closing…
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Detached observer Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:44 am
@wondering why,
Yes that is all it comes down to. He didn’t make it safe for the participants. The decision to leave should have neve entered the equation. He made them choose life or death and that is never an accident.
[Reply]
Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2011 at 8:58 pm
@Detached observer,
Blame the victim is all they got.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
sickened Reply:
April 2nd, 2011 at 4:16 am
@Duff, And James Ray, like other personal development idiots who have been exposed recently, they all blame the victims. It is weak, it is dishonest, it is selfish, it is pathetic, it is unethical, it is typical of a person who is narcissistic and usually you discover that they hide an incredible amount even from their own partners.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 7:33 am
@Detached observer,
I wish I shared your confidence. I actually think it’s going to be hard to prove because the idea of “personal responsibility” is so appealing. No one wants to think they’re suggestible and ultimately the jurors need too identify with the victims. We’d all like to believe that we would have left in a situation like that. But Stanley Milgram demonstrated in study after study that people are very submissive to authority figures. I just wish the prosecution had someone of the caliber of Phil Zimbardo testifying to explain the effects of authority systems. Nothing against Rick Ross but it’s not even definite that he’ll be testifying because of his lack of credentials. Someone like Zimbardo who’s done actual, clinical research into the effects of authority would be great because the idea that humans are innately submissive is not popular. It’s true but it’s not popular. I just posted on this issue yesterday. I, personally, think what Ray did was classic cult snapping but I hope Rick Ross is capable of getting that across and that he can testify.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 8:22 am
@LaVaughn, It wasn’t just authority.It was food,water,sleep and restroom deprivation. Also,they were forbidden to TALK for hours/days at a time! The “god game” he forced them to play was horrendous. And the extended isolation in the desert,where they were not allowed to have even water or medications and had to defecate, urinate,and vomit in a tiny space takes this event far beyond submission to authority, although it’s a valuable point you bring up by mentioning those studies.
This was humiliation and torture. IMO Ray would have loved to have taken the torture even further if he thought he could have gotten away with it.
People from Sedona say they saw him hanging out in town that week at coffee shops working on his laptop.He sure didn’t limit his contact with the outside world! He also ate and drank in private at his Angel Valley room.
Here’s a link to the real corporate “Samurai Game” Ray faked. Notice it’s characterized by lots of Dialogue, communication, talking, idea sharing,as the way to achieve results and goals.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 9:31 am
@Jean D,
Agree with all. I’ve read and blogged quite a bit about the Samurai Game, in particular. But I think a lot will have to do with how well the prosecution puts that across. My concern has to do with the how the jury will perceive the victims and the prosecution witnesses. Most jurors, like the rest of us, would like to think that they would have walked away. They may see the victims as morally weak for sticking it out. And the defense is already playing that card; blaming the victims for things like standing up to fast coming out of the lodge making them pass out. (oy) And they’re going to make a big issue of the fact that some people did leave and the victims chose to stay. Ultimately jurors have to feel not just compassion but empathy with the victims. Consider this fact: women are less likely than men to convict rapists. Why? Because women jurors don’t like to think that they themselves could be raped and it’s easier to think that the rape victim was asking for it in some way. (http://www.e-psychologist.org/index.iml?mdl=exam/show_article.mdl&Material_ID=72) What the prosecution will have to prove is that Ray so manipulated these people that it could have happened to anyone. I think they’re doing a good job so far. And the jury will most likely hate James Arthur Ray; mostly because of the audio tapes. “I… Am… God!” doesn’t play well. But I wouldn’t discount the defense “personal responsibility” strategy. We all like to think we’re personally responsible.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 9:47 am
@LaVaughn, Those are good points. Personally, I believe there’s plenty of awareness about suggestibility, peer pressure and torture and the jury will see the truth. How can they not convict him? He’s so d*** ugly and he looks as guilty as homemade sin.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 11:25 am
@Jean D, Actually, a surprising number of people are okay with torture — not in this context, mind you. But I’ve looked at a lot of polls on this and it’s usually somewhere around %40 who support torture under certain circumstances. The numbers are substantially higher among religious people for some strange reason. Never underestimate the ignorance of the American public.
Understand, I’m not trying to be argumentative. I know I couldn’t sit on that jury. I couldn’t be impartial. It would take a LOT to convince me that he’s not responsible for this atrocity. But I can also reasonably see where other people would and have come to other conclusions. And there has been a lot of talk in and out of the courtroom about personal responsible and a lot of people who don’t get at all why he’s even been charged. So, we’ll see.
#####
Whoa! What happened to Jennifer Haley? And who is Jennifer Tucker?… Sorry. CNN has finally started their live feed. And I’m lost!
Unicorn Army Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:30 am
@LaVaughn, the argument that the Samurai Game is just a corporate team builder he learned at AT&T is interestingly weird. Corporations would never try to brainwash their employees, right? Wrong… they use it the same way Ray did.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:57 am
@Unicorn Army, You’re damn skippy! Good point!
Detached observer Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:58 am
@LaVaughn,
Good points that is why the defense is trying to downplay that this had anything to do with “spirituality” and everything to do with just good old folks trying to learn to love and be successful. The more they see that Ray did see himself as a “spiritual authority” the more the jurors are going to be convinced he had ulterior motives when he talked so obsessively about death.
But with the amount of evidence they have and witnesses saying how horrible it was in there (except for the ones who still follow him and will say it was just like a day spa), the proof of them trying to destroy evidence, those tape recordings etc. I am confident the personal responsibility mantra will not hold up. Ray had responsibility for their safety. He failed miserably.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 11:28 am
@Detached observer, Back up! Who tried to destroy the tapes? I’m trying to remember if I knew that… Someone tried to destroy potential evidence? Seriously? Do you have a link on that?
SD Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 2:02 pm
@LaVaughn ::
I liked your recent Ray article.
The {possible} destruction of evidence came up during the detectives interview with Megan Fredrickson …
http://saltydroid.info/mania-megans-memories/
But I’ve not seen anything about it since. Maybe what the State was looking for were the tapes from the event that Michael Barber had not yet turned over to JRI.
Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 8:09 am
@Jean D, Here are links to the Samurai game. Notice the emphasis on teamwork and communication. http://www.alliedronin.com/samurai.htm
http://www.samuraigame.org/occurs.htm
Ray distorted this game,just like every other technique/ teaching he borrowed, to fulfill his sociopathic urge to hurt and kill people.
[Reply]
Wanderlost Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
@Detached observer, Yep. Sleep deprivation, exposure– all classic torture techniques. Might as well ask why Concentration Camp victims didn’t ‘take responsibility for their own safety’.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Thanks for putting up this page, SD. Very helpful.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
[...] Salty Droid is doing an excellent job on his site collecting all the James Arthur Ray trial updates in one place (and with “80% less snark,” i.e. without his characteristic foul language [...]
No wonder I’m such a hater/loser. I never got the “God/Money/Sex” class.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 9:12 am
@Dave,
And the fact that the word “one” appears vertically and horizontally. Is it some kind of subliminal crossword puzzle?
No wonder I’m having so many problems–I totally missed that.
[Reply]
The Prosecution: James Ray compelled paying customers to stay in a dangerously hot box until they died … in spite of their reliance on him :: his duty to them :: their impaired conditions :: and their obvious need for medical assistance.
The Defense: James Ray compelled paying customers to stay in a dangerously hot :: and poisonous :: box until they died … in spite of their reliance on him :: his duty to them :: their impaired conditions :: and their obvious need for medical assistance.
Good stuff.
I’ll confess I just figured out that CNN was streaming the feed live … stupid robot. Sweet! Goodbye TV idiots!
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 11:57 am
@SD,
I agree. I wasn’t sure I could actually make it through the trial until I found the CNN feed. All of a sudden it wasn’t annoying.
BTW, great summary.
[Reply]
OK … so … new graphic for the prosecution just a screen shot of this wikipedia entry on mind control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
Here’s a snip:
Game over. We win. Bye Fuck-James see you in 30 years
[Reply]
StechDoes Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
@StechDoes,
Guess I should have said “suggested graphic” for the prosecution;
Am I wrong doesn’t this sound EXACTLY like what was going on at this sweat lodge?
[Reply]
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4 3-4)
You will thumb it down but the truth is the truth whether you wish to accept it or not.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
@Tiga, I’m not going to give you a thumbs-down for quoting the Bible, but in reality, people have always believed what they wanted to believe, and have always looked up to, and followed, teachers who tell them what they want to hear at that particular time in their lives.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
@Tiga ::
I’m not going to vote down the Bible just because you have a history of being a chuckle head.
Sounds just about right to me … where can I opt in to this Timothy person? Does he do free seminars in San Diego or anything?
[Reply]
It is eerie – he says the words “death” and “dead” obsessively. Why are they only trying him for manslaughter? He outright murders people. Also, the video of him in court is scary. He is really very angry and trying his best to contain himself. This man is self-righteous, and a delusional, sick person. How dare he feel angry at being brought to trial over other people’s lives lost?
Just goes to show that the man never had good intentions towards any of his followers.
Somewhere on facebook, I read that allegedly, James Ray tortured and killed cats as a child. I don’t know if this is true, but the same was said of Jim Jones and Jeffrey Dahmer. Seems to be a classic pattern. Yes, I put James Arthur Ray in the same category as other serial killers. He should be tried for full murder and sentenced to death row. Then he can say the word death to himself while frying away.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@422, What you read on FB came out of a guy James grew up with named Eddie Gill….Eddie, on FB, is playing both sides of the fence. He’s friends with Jon Ray acting like a life-long friend who is on their side, but truly then is reporting information to the other side. Eddie said that openly when this whole mess started….but Eddie’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, if ya get my drift.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 9:31 am
@Moxie, Whether Ray tortured cats may be speculative,however, he was definitely mean to other kids. A very reliable source,who doesn’t want to be revealed,yet, has given me permission to quote her. Here’s a list of what she emailed me months ago: She didn’t know “James” personally,but her husband grew up with him and husband is NOT ‘Eddie Gill’. My source did know James’ dad, A. Gordon Ray, a former Church of God preacher. http://saltydroid.info/whos-your-daddy/ Gordon is also a New Wage scammer though currently attending his son’s trial:
http://tocreateyourdestiny.com/html/about_us.html
The Rays lived in Ohio,W.Virginia and Hawaii before moving to Oklahoma. They were not poor,they lived far better than many in their congregation. James was known for hating poor people. He was also known as a hateful, arrogant bully; a spoiled momma’s boy (Did anyone notice his mom on his arm entering the courthouse? She’s the poster child for Enablers Anonymouse.) Ray always wanted the prettiest girl,the fastest car;to be better than others. He started injecting steroids at an early age,pumped up to a huge size very quickly.
The following info I found by reading and listening to James Ray’s interviews,seminars,articles and have posted links on this blog. Anyone who really wants them can look them up or I’ll provide them later. Important observation: James Ray has a serious case of strabismus, a condition which can lead to mental and social malfunctioning.
Ray was a professional bodybuilder, his first wife competed, also. They divorced, lost their house,James couldn’t finish Junior College (he makes CONSTANT reference to how worthless education is)James moved to Kansas, still worked for AT&T,learned sales,was competing in bodybuilding and dated bodybuilder girls. He seems to have continued a sexual conquistador attitude throughout his life and as a LGAT seminar leader.
James wasn’t allowed to be a rebellious teen like many of us. His parents wouldn’t allow it.(FYI: I’m exactly his age, from OKC and believe me,Oklahoma was kick ass fun in the 70s.Tons of concerts,camping at lakes, and yes,drugs.) Ray describes how he was much older when he started exploring other religions and drugs. He always injected himself with some form of drug;has admitted to using steroids and bragged about shooting DMT,a powerful hallucinogen.Claimed that drugs are essential to “kick-starting” spiritual enlightenment.
Ray later continued using DMT in the form of Ayahuasca drink while visiting Brazil and Peru.Ray goes into lengthy descriptions of “nearly dying” during an Ayahuasca ceremony. He drank the “boca grande” which was apparently the strongest form of the drink. He vomited severely, and became unconscious; claims to have confronted “Death” and looked it right in the face; for him an important “life-changing experience” that he decided to share with others.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 11:17 am
@Jean D, Jean Dear….I know everything you said already. I “Know”, in depth, the whole life story of James Arthur Ray. And I can’t stand to even look at his Daddy.
Just so you know (incase you don’t), James Ray uses much of that bullshit you mentioned above in his Harmonic Wealth Weekend…..that weekend seminar is his “hook” to get people to go to the rest of his programs which cost more $$$.
If you have not seen that, I truly suggest you rent or borrow the Harmonic Wealth Home Study Course. It’s the biggest load of crap you’ll ever see and will show you the true James Ray, right away. I swiped a copy on E-Bay when everyone was “burning his books” when this Tragedy first happened, watched it, then send it to the Yavapai Sheriff for his entertainment.
God, the guy is just pathetic. And with what he’s done to exploit others with this outrageous “story” of his life, to show “he perservered and so can you” (his line), is just beyond LAUGHABLE. You seem to already know the facts, so you know this. But if you haven’t seen it in action, you need to get that course and watch it.
The popcorn is on me.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 9:18 pm
@Moxie, There’s no way I could watch that crap.Back in 09 I perused his videos and every word and gesture immediately disgusted me. He looked like a greasy salesman cocaine addict with poor diction and grammar. It’s okay if he or anyone isn’t very educated; academia is not for everyone.What’s disgusting is his pretending to know things and charging people thousands of dollars for fake information and activities that ultimately took 4 precious lives and destroyed an infinite number.
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 12:13 am
@422, AMEN
[Reply]
Me while it lasts …
http://twitter.com/RayShouldPay
James Ray refuses to accept my retweets …
… well :: I :: never!
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
@SD,
I like it!..How come your tweets never show up on the sidebar?
[Reply]
“Brad Brian and Luis Li at Munger Tolles, for their guidance and expertise, for being a living example of integrity and truth, and for bringing positivity into my life.”
Biting my tongue so hard it’s bleeding everywhere, which isn’t good, because I can’t stop vomiting.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 4th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
@Bryan Neuman ::
Intriguing … cause I’ve got this vomittey sort of feeling about it myself … and I’m a fake robot.
[Reply]
Well, well , well at least the rich gets what’s coming to them…
[Reply]
Thank you for posting these recordings. I found them very chilling.
It’s great that cult expert Rick Ross will be able to testify in this case. Most people don’t understand how “mind control” works. Visit rickross.com for an education in the inner workings of cults.
I was watching videos of JAR in his Harmonic Seminar, and he’s really doing all the tricks of subliminal persuasion.
Here are examples of tricks he always uses throughout the seminar (note what he says comes first line, the hypnotic command is next with comments)
• If you, like me, believe this…
• If YOU LIKE ME, believe this…
This is used to make his audience subconsciously like him and trust him. He uses this hundreds of times. Over and over.
Next,
• When your unconscious thinks this…
• When YOU’RE UNCONSCIOUS thinks this…
This is again one of his favorites — a classic hypnotic trick to induce hypnosis.
These are of course, very basic commands. JAR is not a subtle guy.
The whole Harmonic Weekend video gives a very clear insight on what JAR is really about. A salesman with a God complex using hypnosis to sell his seminars.
Good people died.
The spell is broken.
Justice is in.
Thanks for covering this story Droid. It’s important.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Chewygum Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 1:06 am
@Wide Eyes, Couldn’t agree more. I’ve sat in seminars of one of the people from the secret and he even incorporated stuttering which one of his clients opening chatted about after his seminar. The client felt it was intentional and part of his deliberate plot to manipulate people into buying his crap. Their didn’t appear to be many sales made that night and the next thing you hear the guys been exposed as a con. These people are sick individuals whose only intention is to make bucket loads of money from the gullible to spend on their own toys. Every one of them thinks they are Gods gift but in the end they are nothing more than idiot wannabe doormats that the really rich wipe their feet on.
[Reply]
I couldn’t think of anything more made up and fitting for the SELFISH HELP industry than those three words – GOD/MONEY/SEX.
The selish help industry is on a hiding to nothing because their modern day gurus deluded intentions are so obvious. JR will, like all of those guys who are guilty as hell, claim he never intended anything, blame the victims and claim he’s being exploited.
[Reply]
interesting how Ray, according to his Spiritual Warrior Participant Guide, had his students read all of Carlos Castaneda’s books – in order. Was Ray trying to duplicate the con and secret world that Castaneda created?
Here’s a 2007 Salon article on the Castaneda scam, and how it played out for CC and his “family” of dupes:
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/12/castaneda
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 5th, 2011 at 10:36 pm
@thisisinteresting,
Fascinating and creepy as hell. It sounds like that’s exactly what he was trying to do…right down to the fake teachers.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 3:13 am
@thisisinteresting ::
Very interesting … thanks for pointing that out.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 9:22 am
@thisisinteresting, Thanks for pointing that out. I’d missed it and I can’t believe I missed it. Castaneda was a total fraud. If you have a strong stomach, read Sorcerer’s Apprentice by one of his former follower/mistresses. Eek. I read the Salon article a while ago and there are actually some more scholarly books dissecting his claims that I want to read. He had the geography wrong. He had the topography wrong. He had the practices of the Yaqui wrong. He had the hallucinogens wrong. The man has been thoroughly exposed as a fraud. I knew Ray was bastardizing Castaneda with the whole, ludicrous spiritual warrior thing… A fraud borrowing wholesale from a fraud who borrowed wholesale from other people. Lovely.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
@LaVaughn, And even the Ayahuasca ceremonies in S.America are run by poor people who are capitalizing on drug tourism. Frauds leading frauds and scammers directing scammers.
Oh here’s actual ‘copy and paste’ from the email sent by the woman in Tulsa whose hubby/friends grew up with James Ray:
“…And he was a skinny gangly kid until he started taking steroids. Within a week he bulked up and my sources tell me he was never thin again. Oh, and he injected steroids…so we were amazed to hear he might still be doing so, as only the ignorant know that long-term use of such is damaging. But if it helps you make millions, then I’m sure it would gladly be an option for many people, huh?”
“My sources say so very much of what James says on his website and TV appearances is straight out of Gordon’s sermons or seminars. One said, “James isn’t doing anything original. He isn’t smart enough to do so. He takes from others without giving them credit.” And one thing I’ve long heard from people who knew him is that he is NOT the brightest bulb in the world. Gordon is smarter than he is and we wonder if he didn’t give him advice in the beginning, and then James learned to surround himself with smart(er) advisors. He has certainly marketed himself well.”
[Reply]
Detached observer Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
@thisisinteresting,
Yes I’ve noticed that also. And I think that is where Ray gets a lot of his very physically punishing tactics. Because in Castaneda’s books, his “nagual” or “teacher” was very demanding physically of him. Forcing him to stay out in the desert for long periods, tying him up against a tree to see what kind of person he was, making him pass many endurance tests that in the real world would be cruel and unrealistic. All in the name of obtaining awareness or power. You see how James Ray got seduced by the great writing ability of Castaneda (and he is a great writer), Ray bought into it as something real and used it to make himself into something that is simply an illusion.
I even think Ray is bs’ing about finding shamans in South America to teach him. I believe in my heart of hearts that he just read the Castaneda’s books and took all of his “secret knowledge” from there. If you read the books you will see very clearly where many of Ray’s terminology and tactics come from. Using “death” as an advisor is from Castaneda, the whole “journey of power” is from Castaneda, etc. This guy is a world class fraud.
[Reply]
Detached observer Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
And not to bring up something so dark but there is a sad irony with Ray and Castaneda.
After Castaneda died, one of his apprentices killed herself near death valley. She was the “blue scout” in his books aka the “nagual woman.” And if I remember correctly or maybe this is just hearsay. But his other three close female apprentices have disappeared, many people have assumed they have killed themselves also to be with Castaneda in the “other world” that that he promised was waiting for them when they left this world.
With Ray taking three lives directly and the fourth indirectly or however that really happened with Ms. Conway. There is a tragic irony to this whole story. A sad parallel of two people who placed narcissistic power and control above human life by playing games with those that trusted them the most.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
One of the Victims told me to never use the word “HAte”……..it is soo very hard to not use that word right now
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 10:20 am
@soulsista,
I don’t see anything wrong with using that word. I think that New Age people are afraid of that word because they fear it will bring more negativity into their own lives.
However, if that belief is false, then what’s the harm? Call a spade a spade.
I have “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” and it is chilling. It’s painful to read because I identify somewhat with the author, and it’s humiliating to recall my own gullibility and desire to please someone I once looked up to.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
soulsista Reply:
March 6th, 2011 at 5:10 pm
@Hippo, Thanks for your reply and insight.
[Reply]
The Participants Guide was very enlightening… little confused by a line in the Spiritual Warrior Preparation Checklist asking them to bring a “Bag of chewing tobacco”?
Great currency for were Ray’s going… was he secretly stocking up in advance?
Or has the Droid been doctoring the PDF? :-)
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 10:36 am
@catbum, That was for the offerings in the sweat lodge
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-13
[Reply]
Detached observer Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 11:56 am
@FrankLimas,
This isn’t a slight against you personally but lets take a look at what you heard.
That’s a strange rumor, haven’t heard it and it makes no sense at all. They deliberately left Exhibit A at the crime scence. You could only mean that is the sweat lodge itself? What were they supposed to do, carry it back to town on the back of a pickup truck in one big piece?
There was a strange combination of chemicals that magically found themselves making people feel fine when in reality they were dying? No those were the words of James Ray who said they would feel like dying but they were going to be fine. No chemicals just words from James ray.
And on top of that some guy who got “guilty drunk” should be relied upon for information? How does anyone know why a guy gets drunk and how can information from that guy be taken seriously?
I know Ray’s attorneys are trying to blame the victims, Angel Valley, and whoever they can to make them responsible for the deaths instead of James Ray but that rumor (if it is one) is silly. I can maybe believe that is the story his attorneys were bantering around in the war room trying to find some kind of plausible deniability but that rumor is a big reach.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
@FrankLimas ::
Those are lies not rumors :: and you’re telling them … not asking about them.
… that is a slight against you personally.
P.S. If I can confirm that you are @LeeKaunMinor from a new Hawaii IP … then I’m deleting that crapola.
Go away.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
Construction Detritus must NEVER be used when preparing the stones for a sweat. Specifically, OSB: the binder used to hold OSB together is a Resin based Formaldehyde preservative. Because formaldehyde is naturally a gas, it is suspended in a waxy resin which presents the danger of ‘coating’ the stones with a thin waxy layer off gasing formaldehyde. (smoke goes up, wax goes down)
When heated and inhaled, Formaldehyde is classed as a ‘Dissociative Anesthetic Intoxicant’ which means: “intoxication with this drug severely clouds ones judgment and may include sensory deprivation, temporal disorientation, loss of self awareness,increased pain tolerance, abnormal calm and near catatonic dysphoric trances. It also may produce general depressant effects such as sedation, respiratory depression, analgesia, anesthesia, and ataxia, as well as cognitive and memory impairment.” ref: http://www.inch.com/~jholland/julie/illie.htm
If you wanted to coerce people in a sweat lodge to cook themselves to death, you couldn’t ask for a better intoxicant. Readily available, not normally tested for, naturally occurring, anesthetizing, judgment impairing… All you need to do is let burning OSB contact the stones and the resin will naturally accumulate…
IN terms of responsibility, not using construction detritus is so basic as to be comparable to a pilot not doing a basic checklist and then trying to take off in a plane that doesn’t have wings while blaming the mechanics.
The water pourer is responsible for the lodge, the people, the fire, the stones, and the water. The only thing the water pourer isn’t traditionally responsible for is the snacks… Which oddly, is the only thing James takes credit for.
While we will never know the materials on those stones, we know that James permitted construction detritus to be used in their heating, this is clearly negligent. He was in charge, he instructed, and he oversaw.
End Note: There are Seven Sacred Fires of the Inikaga (the ceremony James co-opted) all seven of them expressly forbid the use of construction detritus. His fraudulence, negligence, arrogance, and incompetence cost those people their lives…
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
@Injun Samurai ::
Do we know that he used construction materials to heat the rocks? I don’t remember that.
Watch it was particle board and duraflame logs … in respect of the long standing tradition of going to Home Depot at the last minute.
[Reply]
Stoic Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
@SD,
It has suddenly appeared as an account on JAR’s blog:
http://www.jamesray.com/blog/2011/03/
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@Stoic ::
And suddenly the default home page is running unflattering local news accounts :: and the whole site has been reskinned and moved to WordPress …
What’s going on? Does anybody know?
[Reply]
Amy Hall Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 10:23 pm
@SD, Mick Moore did James’ new website.
SD Reply:
March 9th, 2011 at 11:47 am
@Amy Hall ::
This guy? http://www.quickstartexpert.com/
Is he a former insider / World Wealth Society type?
Amy Hall Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
@SD, Mick Moore was never a student of JAR… as far as I know
SD Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
@Amy Hall ::
I guess he just wanted my attention. Done and done.
422 Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 9:22 am
@SD, @All,
I’ve checked out the comments and James Ray’s page http://www.jamesray.com/blog/sweat-lodge-accident/#comments
Is it me or is it plain obvious James Ray seems to be talking to himself ? All the posts are either from 9 to 10 am or from 9 to 10 pm, with most of them going on about how he spent 20 years doing it. Oddly enough, NONE of the profiles have anything, no pics, nothing.
Jack Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 11:50 pm
@Stoic, the bottom fo the blog website for jAR says:
“content and design produced by KillerGraffix” which made me find this page:
http://www.plaxo.com/profile/show/90196345828?pk=a27f4562f48e0c9ca89da3216756ef93c6a09e17
with quickstartexpert and the killergraffix from the jAR blog website listed on it.
I can’t see anything about world wealth society now yet.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 5:53 pm
@SD,
I thought I read it in Mercer’s deposition, but I don’t remember for sure (wait, isn’t that Megan’s line?)
I also saw a picture of the fire taken by someone there, it had dimensional lumber in it. But I couldn’t find it just now. I thought the construction detritus was common knowledge but now I can’t find a cite-worthy source,(James Ray’s Blog is not citeworthy). I can keep looking if you want, but it’s moot and even if confessed by Mercer, without the stones, it’s implications are just speculation…
The defense will play it up, but the legal system has little tolerance for courtroom speculation. The real reason I even mention it is out of compassion for the victims who survived…
As I watched that trial, I heard that poor woman blaming herself for not doing more… Most likely, she’ll never let that go, and sherm or no sherm, she deserves to know that from start to finish, James failed her in every way… The only thing he did well, was con people into trusting him.
A trusting person should not punish themselves for being conned. James is a world class impostor, and the people who trusted him died because of his negligence alone…
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
@Injun Samurai,
The Defense used a photo showing dimensional lumber. When questioned, Melissa Phillips said she did not know lumber. I do. Many people use construction debris for heating. As noted, you do not want to use treated wood. That is just a given if you burn wood.
As for the stones, they were never destroyed. They have always been available. The sweat lodge was destroyed but the stones make up the heart at the center of the memorial garden at Angel Valley.
However, construction debris was not used every year, but every year people got sick and/or unconscious. Every year.
One thing they didn’t test was James.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 7th, 2011 at 8:47 pm
@White Rabbit, Here are three articles from 2009 that describe how tests revealed no carbon monoxide or contaminants. Also the ME’s findings said “heat” was the cause of death for all 3 victims. Ray’s defense is trying to distract with these lies:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/us/11lodge.html
http://spas.about.com/b/2009/10/10/sweat-lodge-deaths-at-sedona-spa.htm http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2380.0
Here’s an article from 2010 describing the investigation,search warrents, with lists of all items seized,has pics of Ray’s portable pharmacy.http://www.prescottenews.com/component/content/article/14/2909-sedona-sweat-lodge-tragedy-search-warrants-served
Stoic Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
@White Rabbit,
‘One thing they didn’t test was James.’
Now that would be interesting, we all know that his spiel is totally toxic but it might be interesting to find out what chemical toxins he exudes when heated.
[...] Let’s make this real simple. James Arthur Ray is at the top of pile when it comes to scamming people out of money with crazy schemes. Trouble is, his scams ended up killing people and he’s now on trail for all kinds of bad stuff. [...]
[...] For now all I can do is advise all readers to follow Salty Droid’s coverage. [...]
Here’s my summary of the first week of James Arthur Ray’s trial. Ray is the motivational guru charged with involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of 3 people during a sweat lodge ceremony in Oct. 2009. Last week, the first witnesses were called; survivors of that sweat lodge. They described the intensity of the heat, the unfolding sickness and watching their friends die.
Ray’s attorneys asked these witnesses if they could have left the lodge at any time. They said yes, and explained the reason they chose to stay in was because they wanted to experience these events that they believed were meant to help them gain control over their lives. They liked James Ray, believed he had something to teach that they wanted to learn, and they trusted him.
The participants signed the waivers saying they knew the experience came with dangers. Ray told them about the risks, even exaggerated them telling participants his sweat lodges were “not for wimps”, they were so hot they would feel as if their “flesh was falling off their bones”. His sweats were not for wimps. This was a Spiritual Warrior retreat and if they dropped out they weren’t committed to making the changes they said they wanted to. Ray told them that this was the ultimate battle and that they “could live an honorable life, devote themselves 100% to everything they do, or they could exit dishonorably.
This experience bears no resemblance to an authentic Native American sweat lodge; a sacred ceremony intended to open your mind/body/spirit to seeing something that you need to know, not potentially kill you. The leader doesn’t decide what you need to see or learn, that’s between you and the ‘stone people’ whose steam is the breath of your ancestors. The Native sweat lodge is intended to illuminate the spirit, not eliminate it.
Ray may have outlined the risks, and he may not have physically kept them from leaving, but he made it difficult to do so. Those participants paid up to $9,000 to participate and they wanted to get their money’s worth. They signed the waiver believing he would deliver what he promised, taking them on a journey of intense experience, and leading them out the other side.
This was more than an intense experience; it was a fraudulent violation of trust.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Hey friends – James has a new Website….check it out. I don’t know WTF he is doing with this,or why, but it’s crazy. What an ASSHOLE – again.
http://www.jamesray.com
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 8:44 am
@Moxie, I foolishly clicked on the first link on his sidebar. It takes you to an outside site called Life Results Now that will not let you leave. You can’t hit the back link without getting a popup that only gives you a choice to move forward into the site. Ultimately, a voice comes on that begs, “Wait. Don’t leave!” I managed to close out the tab but yeesh. Talk about desperation.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 3:33 am
@LaVaughn,
Excellent coverage on your blog, BTW!
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:33 am
@Yakaru, Thank-you.
[Reply]
Unicorn Army Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:52 am
@Yakaru, it really is – I’ve had trouble understanding the full picture and LaVaughn’s lengthy reports are amazing.
[Reply]
kalista7 Reply:
July 4th, 2011 at 12:01 am
@Unicorn Army, Agreed! Always interesting perspectives and very talented writing from LaVaughn. << Thanks!
[Reply]
“Thoughts lead to feelings, feelings lead to emotions, emotions lead to actions, actions lead to results. ”
The defense should use this deep philosophy. Their sheeple (i think they will gain jury favor if they come clean on how they really think of their “warriors”), thought this sweat lodge would complete their enlightment. So they felt it was right to stay despite what their stupid body was telling them. Now they natually might have gotten all emotional and started panicing from some of the things they were feeling (becuase they are with the spirits now your honorz), but thats ok. As long as they took the action of staying in the lodge, everything would be ok.
“your honor, do the fucking math, 3 people died in the lodge, and how many millions of people die each year OUTSIDE the sweat lodge!? Did you know the desert has killed like 47616 people your honor? Most poeple survived inside the sweat lodge your honor, and if u do the maths its obvoius the peoples outside our death house…er….sweat lodge are dying. S your honor i ask that you aquit. If the death rates dont fit you must aquit! James was saving these people by keeping them from the murderous desert. And id like to add your honor that its hard to keep a full room of people alive for a whole day. I bet you thousands of people watxhing this trial will die before its done, can i blame you for that your honorZ? We rest our case ( but sure as fuck not in one of out sweat lodges if you catch my drift lolz)”
The defense should use thst it will win the judge for sures. And the whole honorz thing goes with his country boy folkz thang.
Also a question for u salty can blog comments be submitted as evidence for james being a fuck tard in this case?
[Reply]
@ Jean D, I could not post this under your reply as there was no reply thingy. You do not have to try to convince me about the toxicology. I have been to Native American run sweats. I also have been in James’s. I saw what happened. I knew it was only a matter of time before it was going to be deadly. The way he treats people is appalling.
To his lawyers: Your attempts to white wash this are only making you look like fools. But, hey, you are highly paid fools. If you want your reputations to go down with James’s, carry on. We will sit here and watch the show. However, considering James’s history, no one is buying your arguments so may I suggest a couple more you can try:
1. This “accident” was caused by solar flares.
2. James was taken over by a walk-in.
You can work those up for next week. After you have used those, we can give you some more to work on.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
@White Rabbit, Hi White Rabbit. I was actually responding to @Injun Samurai. There’s no need to discuss toxins; the 3 who passed away succumbed to heat. Survivors still suffer permanent damage;some don’t even realize it. Very simple. And I’ve been to real sweats,too,and we could go on forever comparing lodge materials etc.,but there’s no need. That idea was ruled out long ago. Why allow Ray’s attorneys to distract us from the point at hand? We already know Ray minions are blogging here and posting comments all over the place to distract and confuse and defend Crazy Cross Eyed James.
A reasonable person knows heat injures and kills. That’s what the trial is about and what the verdict will be based on. James Ray cooked 3 people to death and he intended to. But he’s not being tried for 2nd degree murder as he should. So he will be found guilty of manslaugher because he did not act as a “reasonable” person should have in that situation. He acted like an insane killer which he is;not a teacher who developed a big ego.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
These are pictures from the 2008 Spiritual Warrior event, showing participants were in distress and needed medical attention. The judge rules them inadmissible stating that although some people were needing medical attention, no one was dying.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/guru-james-rays-tents-sweat-lodge-trial-starts/story?id=13025360&page=1
[Reply]
Sadie Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
@Cynthia, My goodness that is unbelievable. His attorney said “Participants signed a release form saying that the retreat activities could include a sweat lodge with enclosed spaces and high temperatures,” BUT it did not say that there was a possibility of physical injury or even death, did it? Does anyone have a copy of it?
[Reply]
Sadie Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 9:53 pm
@Sadie, Stupid me, salty provided this doc above.
[Reply]
I would love to see Oprah implicated in all of this, as she has millions of followers and she endorses all of the spiritual programs. I am not saying that they do not work, however they have been brought to the extreme
[Reply]
Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
@John, She’s one of the most powerful people in the world, but she won’t even respond to me. I urge you to keep trying, but I have to say, good luck with that!
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 8:40 am
@Bryan Neuman,
By the way, do you have any information on how many of the sweat lodge participants got involved with Ray as a direct result of his appearance on Oprah?
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@Hippo ::
We’ll get a feel for that as the trial goes along because they are asking each witness how they got started with Death Ray.
However :: it would be impossible to actually measure the effect … because many {perhaps the vast majority} of his subsequent appearances in all sorts of other main stream venues could be attributed to those moments on Oprah. There were people in the lodge who were there because of Oprah who have never watched Oprah.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
@SD,
I would count anybody who got involved from the ripple effect following the Oprah show. As you say, it will be impossible to get an exact count.
If a good deal of Ray’s business was a direct or indirect result of being on Oprah, shame on her for not addressing this.
I’m sure her lawyers have told her to STFU, but still….
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
@Hippo, @BryanNeuman, @SD: And before Oprah, there was Larry King. Oprah didn’t really start touting The Secret till early 2007…
http://www.myspace.com/video/the-secret/oprah-show-the-secret-february-8-2007/6378198
…but Larry King had that infamous two-part show featuring some “stars” from The Secret in November 2006. He had at least one more Secret episode in 2007.
I don’t think that Oprah or Larry or Ellen DeGeneres or any of the other influential TV hosts who gushed over The Secret could be held criminally liable for JAR’s crimes, but IMO they do bear some moral responsibility, and I often wonder if any of them feels even a smidgen of regret.
Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:22 pm
@Hippo,
In 2006, self-help guru James Ray appeared on Oprah in a segment about the movie The Secret, which suggests that people can draw good or bad luck based on the “Laws of Attraction.” His company James Ray International promptly took off, posting a jump in revenue of 225 percent. And the growth was sustained: James Ray recorded 77 percent growth the following year.–M. David Hornbuckle
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:55 pm
@Bryan Neuman,
Well, your mom obviously knew him before he was on Oprah. I wonder about Kirby, James and Colleen?
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 10:49 pm
@John,
Oh, I’ve written to Oprah several times. I think she’s VERY culpable here. Maybe not legally, but morally.
Of course she’ll never respond and nothing will ever happen to her as a result of her fawning all over James Ray and encouraging people to sign up with him.
It’s funny how she went ballistic over James Frey–a writer who embarrassed her, but caused no real harm, but she ignores James Ray, a person who has caused several deaths and untold anguish to probably thousands.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Pennyfarther Reply:
March 9th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
@Hippo, I’m not sure what to think about Oprahs responsibility, I think she too would want to believe that the person in front of her and who she was promoting was a morally sound person with good intentions however the secret and the information they use to manipulate people is even bigger than Oprah. It has proved far bigger than any one of those people who appeared on it. If Oprah were to be outspoken about JR now its likely most of her followers would be shaken to the core because they believe Oprah, they trust her and what she puts to them. You have to be trust-worthy to make serious money like Oprah and while her management may have made some poor judgement calls that she was obliged to follow through on, I’m not sure its actually Oprah herself who is responsible here. Just not sure…. I do feel that JR is responsible and i believe now is the time to make an example of these people. The history books are already written for JR and some of his cronies, they wont change the past except if they make good to those they have affected and I’m not sure in JR’s case that is really possible. He just went too far to a point of no return, following his greed. He was prepared to do it so he must also be prepared for the consequences.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 9th, 2011 at 10:06 pm
@Pennyfarther,
I think Oprah’s actions are morally reprehensible.
You could be right that her management team got her into obligations that she could not wiggle out of.
However, she GUSHED over the people from “The Secret” and she is a big Magical Thinking advocate.
While she does a lot of charity work which I commend her for, promoting Magical Thinking is ultimately destructive.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:02 am
@Pennyfarther,
I wanted to add to my previous post something I just thought of about Oprah’s liability.
You may recall that she had a show years ago about beef, and she was sued by a cattleman’s association because they claimed that her show was responsible for a drastic drop in sales.
This is not a fair comparison to the James Ray situation, but I did want to mention it.
Oprah prevailed in that lawsuit. I’m guessing that her lawyers have told her that she has nothing to worry about in this instance, either.
[Reply]
Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
@Hippo, I’ve posted comments on Oprah’s site multiple times and they’ve all been deleted. The last one, I begged her to share the truth about James Ray. It wasn’t negative at all. It stayed up for about 2 days, but then was deleted as well.
It hurts that she strongly promoted this monster, but won’t even acknowledge the fact that 4 people died under his leadership. It feels like she doesn’t care that people are getting hurt and killed by this monster, IMO.
WINNER!! ::
+18
[Reply]
Lily Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
@Bryan Neuman, just remember God will not be mocked… or, in JR speak, karma’s a b*tch ;)
Even for Oprah. And she’s put herself on such a high pedestal that she’s got a mighty long way to fall.
Stay strong and keep the faith — and big hugs.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:25 pm
@Bryan Neuman,
Oprah is making me sick. She is a real fair-weather friend, isn’t she?
And a fucking hypocrite.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
@Bryan Neuman,
I have something else I want to mention about Oprah.
She is not just acting this way about the sweatlodge deaths, she does this with ANYTHING that even hints at negativity.
I spent some time on her board a couple of years ago, commenting about her enabling Tom Cruise and by association, Scientology. All my comments were deleted.
I realize that Cruise’s alarming behavior is nothing compared with the deaths of your dear mother and the others.
However, I did want to point out that this is nothing specific toward you or this situation in particular.
Any time anything “unpleasant” is posted, Oprah hides under a rock and then her Meanie Moderators delete everything.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 10:11 pm
This is to Cosmic Connie:
I tried replying to you above. I understand that Larry King had James Ray on his show before Oprah did. I didn’t know he appeared on the Ellen DeGeneres show.
Oprah has a creepy, mesmerizing influence on hundreds of thousands of people. She’s been elevated to a ridiculously high stature. James Franco introduced her at the Oscars and said something about how he was excited to be breathing the same air (?!) as Oprah. I know they made him say that, but it irked me.
Oprah has a great responsibility because of her Pied-Piper-like influence over people. I believe she dropped the ball–big time–on this one.
I imagine that she’s not legally responsible, but that doesn’t excuse her gushing and encouraging people to sign up with Ray and the other charlatans.
Oprah’s problem is that she believes her own bullshit.
Many people have never been taught good critical thinking skills and will do whatever she tells them. This makes her dangerous, and culpable.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
@Hippo, You made good points about Oprah’s responsibility and influence. My comment probably wasn’t very clear; I was also speaking about talk show hosts’ passionate embrace of the whole Secret franchise, which I believe is symptomatic of a deep cultural sickness that goes beyond a given talk show host’s showcasing of an individual Secret “star.” And that’s why I mentioned Ellen DeGeneres. Sorry about the confusion.
As a matter of fact I don’t think JAR *was* on Ellen DeGeneres’ show, but I do know she did her part to promote The Secret. Pretty early on in The Secret media frenzy, she featured both John Asshat… I mean…Assaraf, and Bob Proctor. I have always liked Ellen but have to say I was pretty disappointed in her when I saw this:
[As for Proctor, he has his own filthy little secrets, which may or may not come to light before he passes on to that great MLM in the sky (or below the surface of the Earth, as the case may be).]
My point is that IMO, even those TV talk show hosts who didn’t have JAR as a guest bear some of the moral responsibility for any deleterious effects that The Secret has had on our culture. I would think that those who have a conscience would at least be a tad embarrassed that they fell for The Secret scam.
It would be easy to dismiss talk shows as mere entertainment or infotainment, and to say that viewers have a responsibility to make wise choices for themselves, and that they shouldn’t blame the talk show hosts for any foolish choices they make. And of course some people have made this very argument. And of course viewers *should* exercise critical thinking skills. But the fact remains that Oprah is enormously influential, and she as well as the various New-Wage gurus she has featured are doing everything they can to exert and maintain their influence. It doesn’t help that the gurus themselves, more often than not, dismiss those who try to promote critical thinking as negative losers.
Some have also argued that Oprah’s touting of The Secret or other selfish-help/McSpirituality/New-Wage products is no different from her giving a thumbs-up to a pair of shoes or some other consumer product. But I have long believed that for the very reason that most selfish-help products attempt to delve into one’s emotional, mental, and spiritual life, they are a different category of consumer product than shoes or cars or frozen dinners — and that arguably a greater degree of responsibility comes with promoting such products. This is especially true if one is in a position of real influence, as Oprah is.
As you noted in an earlier comment, @Hippo, it is disgusting that Oprah fell all over herself with corrections and retractions when she found out that an author she’d featured, James Frey, had embellished his memoir. Although I don’t condone actions such as Frey’s, James Arthur Ray’s misdeeds were much more serious, and to my knowledge Oprah hasn’t uttered a peep.
I would like to think she has a conscience and that she is beyond appalled at the Death Lodge, Colleen Conaway’s death, and other truths that have come out about JAR. But I’m equally certain that she is doing everything she can to avoid even a hint of liability. For O, from a legal standpoint, silence is golden at this point.
Jean D Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
@Hippo, Ditto. And pass the lemonade,sister!
rabbit man Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@Bryan Neuman,
I feel Oprah is responsible for promoting a lot of damaging stuff. Basically, it’s all about confusing spiritual development with ego. One of the first signs of a fake “religion” or “spiritual” practice is it appeals to your ego. This is how very successful and intelligent people get conned. Oprah is followed by many strong and successful women who are looking for more in their lives. Unfortunately, the language of our society doesn’t equip us for spiritual seeking and has thus also failed to give even the most educated and successful people basic bulls**t detectors. Our education systems and economies are designed to promote ego and materialism. This is what JRI and Oprah have in common; they prey on the confusion of poorly understood “spiritual” concepts with crass materialism. Many basically good, smart people get indoctrinated into this confusion at a very early age, most of us in fact. Some who have a strong spiritual yearning and who may not be lucky enough to encounter real spiritual traditions (there are more fake ones than real ones out there) can get drawn in by the fakes. James Arthur Ray is just a guy out on the edge who “closed the deal” set up by people like Oprah…
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
Cosmic Connie–
I put Oprah in a special category.
Anybody who promotes “The Secret” should be ashamed. However, Oprah exerts a much greater influence than Larry King, Ellen DeGeneres, or any other talk show host.
It’s true that people should use critical thinking and make their own decisions–but many of us don’t know how to. The self-help people know how to tap into our deepest yearnings and promise wish fulfillment.
Therefore, I would not compare this with a pair of shoes, or a book, or a bra, or anything else Oprah gets excited about. This is a philosophy which gets inside of your head and re-wires your brain; far more damaging than an unwise clothing purchase.
And I’m popping open a bottle of Sunkist diet sparkling lemonade.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 10:04 am
@Hippo, I agree that Oprah’s touting of The Secret (or any other selfish-help/McSpirituality gimmick) IS different from her endorsement of a pair of shoes, bras, etc. And that was one of the points I was making in my previous comment when I said that selfish-help/McSpirituality products are in a different category than shoes, cars, etc. I was summarizing some of the arguments others have made in an attempt to convince us (and themselves) that The Secret and even JAR’s crimes are NBD.
While I also understand the points about Oprah herself being in a category apart from the other talk show hosts, I was trying to make the point that they’re all part of a larger problem. I’m not sure if it’s fair for everyone to gang up on Oprah and run her out of town with pitchforks… on second thought, okay, go ahead. :-) That would actually make a pretty entertaining TV show in itself.
I’ll pull my chair up, put my feet on the porch rail, sip some lemonade and enjoy the show.
Hippo Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 10:15 am
To Connie:
I agree that we ALL have a problem, and that Oprah is merely symptomatic of that problem.
However, since Oprah is the biggest, most high-profile person, running her out of town with a pitchfork would have the maximum impact, plus it would be priceless in terms of the entertainment value, as you said.
I just read an article somewhere about how Oprah’s “gurus” are seriously messed-up. You may be aware that Iyanla Van Zandt was recently on her show. Iyanla’s marriage and finances apparently imploded. All the more reason to remember that we need to think for ourselves.
Oprah should stick to recommending sweaters and bras.
LaVaughn Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
@Hippo, When I was a book publicist, back in the day, Oprah was the most coveted booking in the business. The reason was a very pragmatic one. She sells books. Her show was the only one where an author would appear and in the following days you could see a dramatic spike in sales. Not even Donahue at his peak could impact sales in such a noticeable way. But the reason she sells books is that she BELIEVES in them. She’s passionate about the books and authors she features. Like it or not, she’s a true believer in new thought and it’s not a belief that can be easily shaken. She has, after all, succeeded by ignoring the obstacles — being poor, being black, being overweight, being not in any way the typical TV star — and pushing forward with incredible determination. So that message makes sense for her. Her error is in thinking it’s universal and in ignoring other reasons for her success. But I don’t think she’ll turn on The Secret anytime soon because she still believes in it. I disagree with her on that just as I disagree with her on Dr. Phil. I still haven’t forgiven her for foisting Dr. Phil on us all.
Hippo Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 9:35 pm
To LaVaughn:
Well, you hit the nail on the head. Oprah succeeded with hard work and determination, so she believes that anyone else can. She ignores the other reasons for her success, including the fact that she has incredible charisma, which hardly anyone has.
She also got some very sound financial advice, and part of it was timing.
Unfortunately, I do believe she has gotten corrupted by having too much power.
I note that the charge is MANSLAUGHTER not MURDER, I don’t think James Ray is guilty of Murder given the nature of the event, the forms he provided, etc. but Involuntary Manslaughter, perhaps so. I think greed is a terrible terrible thing and I think JR was inflicted with it as a result of his absolute belief that he was someone that the world owes.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
@Sadie, The charge is what Prosecutors believed would best stick,not what he’s guilty of. Many of us believe he killed intentionally and loved every minute of it. And his total murders for 2009 was 4, if you count Colleen Conaway, which we do. That monster wanted a crowded,outrageously hot sweat trap where he kept people in for a length of time unknown to any sweat,sauna, spa, steam bath,Turkish, hot tub on the planet. He didn’t want a “weanie ass lodge” remember? He wanted a human oven. How on earth could keeping people in heat enlighten them? That’s ludicrous. And if you’re still not convinced he’s a homicidal maniac, please explain his behavior after he saw people dead and dying on the ground. A reasonable person has no desire to take a shower or eat; he lacks the ability to think of himself. On the other hand, there are many stories of socipaths eating a meal or engaging in normal activities after killing people.
WINNER!! ::
+30
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 8th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
@Jean D,
Good summary..You nailed it Jean!!
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Sadie Reply:
March 9th, 2011 at 3:47 am
@Jean D, Jean I hear you in fact I worked for one of JR’s mates and I absolutely understand your frustration. These people get so incredibly deluded in their own beliefs and desires to get rich that they are devoid of normal human emotion and feelings. I proved it, I saw it first hand and my entire family felt it. It affects so many more people than those who are directly involved unfortunately and a lot of times the hurt never leaves. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that we have been dealing with sociopaths. These people are very sick and need help but in order to get help they have first to acknowledge that they have done something wrong. When you play God its a very long way down to the level of us mere mortals.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Maybe the chat Kirby had with her late grand-uncle was entered into evidence to support the psychic’s assertion that she stayed out of her body of her own free will.
Did it occur to the defense that choking on your own vomit and having visions of deceased relatives is not a sign that things are going well? That what looks like a ‘big breakthrough’ inside the cosy bubble of James Ray’s little world looks disturbing as hell from the outside?
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 9th, 2011 at 3:32 pm
@Sheila,
Actually the psychic spoke with investigators and she denied saying any such thing.
[Reply]
To Salty….will you be able to get the 45 minute recording which was played in Court today? I believe it was James Ray’s babble/briefing instructions to his participants before they entered the sweatlodge.
I missed the coverage of the trial today due to work and only caught bits-n-pieces during some break time. I’d love to hear that whole audio !
Great Job on Twitter — you should do that everyday, if you can…..thanks for the awesome reporting !
[Reply]
Just read some of the interviews of JR Sweaty Lodge participants and I have to say that I am so glad the authorities have stepped in and stopped this lunatic. There are some serious things happening around him and his club of the selfish help gurus. People have been trying to argue with these fools for years but it appears nobody has been listening. Maybe now they will
[Reply]
Does anyone know whether Megan Fredrickson is going to be testifying? She used to be listed as a defense witness, but has been dropped off their last witness list.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 10:24 am
@Yakaru,
I was wondering the same thing..She has not been on the last couple of witness lists..
She seems conspicuously absent..I always wondered if they were going to charge her with anything..
[Reply]
Kalista7 Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 1:12 am
@wondering and @Yakaru – The new witness list of 3/8/11 doesn’t show Megan, but Josh is on it. Now there are 76 witnesses. Here’s the list: https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsyav/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/03-08-2011%20MISCELLANEOUS-WITNESS%20LIST.pdf
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
@Kalista7,
Thanks. I understand Josh “Doormat” Fredrickson is scheduled to appear around 22 March.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
@Yakaru,
Gotta watch that one for sure!
[Reply]
I can honestly say if I heard that 45 minute pre-sweatlodge talk.. I would have been out of there before he even finished… There is no way I would have willingly gone into an enclosed hot pit with that mad sounding man who “was in charge”. Nope.
Those participants must have been under SOME spell… James did (does?) invoke spells through some of his work. Makes you wonder…
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 10:32 am
@Long Gone, Spell, schmell. It’s called brainwashing. JAR’s tactics have been well documented on this blog and elsewhere since October 2009 when the story first broke. After days of being physically, emotionally, and I dare say spiritually browbeaten (all in the name of furthering their personal development, of course!) all of the participants’ defenses were down. I have no doubt that the average person who had just casually walked in on the pre-lodge talk — and who had NOT been subject to the grueling activities James put the actual participants through for the prior week — would probably have said, “No, thanks.” But the Spiritual Warrior attendees did not have the luxury of that kind of detachment.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
@Long Gone,
To add to what Connie said, the participants were basically participating in a completely different event to the one Death Ray was actually giving them. They thought they could achieve great improvements in their lives and were totally focused on the processes they believe would bring them that.
Ray OTOH was sitting there watching the cash flow in, listening to the sound of his own voice and getting off on watching people suffer.
The methods he was using were developed over decades and are very sophisticated. He spent a lot of work sorting out the suitable from the unsuitable people — not the smart from the dumb, like the media – and the defense – portray it. He finds those who want what they think he is offering, and then the highly greased wheels slip into action.
He fooled me completely – I never thought someone like him would be so freaking evil, and I never knew the manipulation techniques were so ruthlessly thought out.
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
@Long Gone ::
I congratulate you on your hypothetical strength of character …
{slow clapping}
[Reply]
Hurry up, dont fall into the pit and shit, take your jewelry off it will burn you, yep it will affect your high blood pressure, bring five bucks (because -think I heard this – I dont want to give any of my money), you go to the toilet before you get in got it, no glasses, quick quick, hang tight folks, 3, 5 dollars, 7 minutes from now ready go!!!!!!!!
God help them and they paid $10,000 or $15,000 or whatever it was for THAT!
That is the scariest 45 minutes of recording i have ever heard and it sounds like it is coming from someone who only gives a shit about himself because those people were a bunch of clueless guinea pigs who were not permitted time to even think. Thanks Salty, now it makes perfect sense why this case was brought to trial. The guy is a arrogant lunatic who is throwing together a bunch of shit for a group of bewildered people because they paid him big money to do it.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Marilyn Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 7:56 pm
@PickledPink,
And he couldn’t even pay his fire tender without
squeezing and extra 3-5 bucks out of his “followers”.
I hope these folks on the stand will now see how ridiculous
they were in following this jerk!
[Reply]
Hurry up, dont fall into the pit and shit, take your jewelry off it will burn you, yep it will affect your high blood pressure, bring five bucks (because -think I heard this – I dont want to give any of my money), you go to the toilet before you get in got it, no glasses, quick quick, hang tight folks, 3, 5 dollars, 7 minutes from now ready go!!!!!!!!
God help them and they paid $10,000 or $15,000 or whatever it was for THAT!
That is the scariest 45 minutes of recording i have ever heard and it sounds like it is coming from someone who only gives a shit about himself because those people were a bunch of clueless guinea pigs who were not permitted time to even think. Thanks Salty, now it makes perfect sense why this case was brought to trial. The guy is a arrogant lunatic who is throwing together a bunch of shit for a group of bewildered people because they paid him big money to do it…..and then he asks for MORE!
[Reply]
tutu shaker Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 6:00 pm
@PickledPink, This reminds me of the Alexis Jordan Song Happiness (sorry Alexis, just sayin). Its a wonder James Ray wasn’t playing it to get them into that freakin low hot tent.
If James Ray wanted to stretch himself beyond his limits then he was free to do that by himself and if he died well it was his own freakin fault. HOWEVER …. HE chose to involve everyone who paid him $10,000 and risk his own life as well as the lives of every single person in that tent. Some of those people had never done a sweat lodge before nor did they probably know they were even going to be doing one. He just finished telling them that the guy building it told him his sweat lodges were insane-ish, the hottest, lowest, craziest freakin sweat lodges ever. He did not give them time to question him or even question themselves to determine whether they even wanted to go into that sweat lodge. He just kept telling them that they needed to hurry up, you only have minutes and bring your 3-5 bucks, etc.
James does this raise your blood pressure ……. ummmmmm yep it could!
What if you need to use the restroom …. you go before you get in! During ….. you go before you get it!!!!!
Unfreakinbelievable.
[Reply]
Stoic Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
@tutu shaker,
James Ray positioned himself by the door with a minion to sprinkle him with water—so he at least had air and water. he wasn’t risking himself at all.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Religion of success leads to death
By Chris Benguhe –
Arizona Republic Feb. 20, 2010 12:00 AM
http://tommcfeeley.com/item/168/ariz-republic-the-relgion-of-success-leads-to-death
Best article on this crazy scene that I’ve read yet.
[Reply]
Salty..
Good graphics on Ray creepily appearing over the sweat lodge..Wow..if I had heard that 45 minutes of Ray’s I would have been out of there so fast..but of course who knows with all the brainwashing and conditioning he did..
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 3:32 pm
@wondering why ::
A fun thing to notice for close trial watchers …
That’s Jennifer Haley in all black … declining to wear the proper t-shit.
Go girl!
[Reply]
Listening to the Defense lawyers twist the participants words makes me sick to my stomach! I find myself yelling at the television on a daily basis because of all this legal mumbo jumbo and their inferences! Of course the participants are being careful as they speak under oath…it was a long time ago, they want to be clear as to what they remember and they are trying very hard not to say something that the defense can twist in their cross examination! I would be thinking my answers through just as much as they are. What I hate most of all is the fact that these (*^%) defense lawyers are actively mocking and humiliating these people while they are testifying. Today, I was so happy to hear Sheila step up and ask the judge to let that poor man who was testifying, get up off of the floor! That was ridiculous, these lawyers are every bit as cold and calculating as James Arthur Ray~it is no wonder that Ray found then! My heart breaks for all the family members who have to suffer through this trial! Stay strong and know that you are not alone!
WINNER!! ::
+21
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
@Colleen’s sister ::
The good thing though … members of the jury will feel just like you do about the belittling and condescension toward people who have already been victimized.
In my opinion :: it’s going HORRIBLY for the defense. The TV heads who are all like :: “it’s a tough case” blah blah are just ignorant of all the evidence that’s coming.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
@SD,
Salty..I agree, I also don’t think is going well for the defense but I also am having a hard time listening to them cross examining the witnesses..
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Colleen's sister Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
@SD, I certainly hope so Salty…upon reflection, The gentleman (I believe his name was Dennis)followed James Ray’s direction at this “retreat” exactly as he did in the courtroom today. The person in charge (defense attorney) told him what to do, so he did it. He did not get up and return to his seat because he did not view himself “in charge” and the one that he believed WAS IN CHARGE did not tell him it was okay to change positions! I hope the jury can see that too! The judge did not even seem to be aware of what was going on until the prosecuting attorney said something!
WINNER!! ::
+14
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 12:34 am
@Colleen’s sister, Dennis Mehravar: I missed that but I’m still in shock over his admission that he would have waited for a break to get help for someone who was DYING. Li looked like he was gonna have a stroke. Not brainwashed my ass. That poor guy is broken. I had to back that up and watch it three times just to wrap my mind around it. I couldn’t believe my frakkin’ ears.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
@LaVaughn ::
It really was a crazy moment.
I wish he would have followed it up with the unpossibly stupid question …
Are you in a cult?
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
@SD, yeah….and the ‘heavyweights’ haven’t testified yet….the Detectives, Medical Experts, Hospital Doctors, Rick Ross, Paramedics, etc…..oh, and the employees like Josh Fredrickson, Michelle Goulet’s Boyfriend, etc…..James will shit his pants when all of this happens.
Hope he knows he can’t excrete inside the 6-foot circle ;)
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:04 pm
@Moxie, You mean you hope he brings his zip loc baggies on those days. Everything he brings in must leave with him.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:43 pm
@Colleen’s sister,
I actually don’t have the stomach to watch the trial; it makes me too upset.
Just try to remember that every small benefit given to the defense now prevents them from making an argument on appeal that they got ripped off by the trial judge.
They’re going to do it anyway, but their options for whining afterward are going to be very limited.
I think it’s therapeutic for you to scream at the TV; I certainly would do the same in your situation.
I light a candle for Colleen every day, since I don’t know what else to do.
WINNER!! ::
+12
[Reply]
Colleen's sister Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 8:45 pm
@Hippo, it means a lot to me and the rest of my family to read your kind words! Thank you!
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 1:26 am
@Colleen’s sister,
It’s the least I can do, dear lady, and may I offer you a glass of virtual lemonade?
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 10:56 am
@Colleen’s sister,
There is a lady by the name of Sue Walton that is posting on Salty’s ” Colleen’s Last Day” blog.. I think it might be worthwhile for you to read her posts.She would like to get in contact with Colleen’s family as she seems to have some information..
[Reply]
Colleen's sister Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 7:25 pm
@wondering why, Thanks for the info…I will check the post out right away! People can also contact Salty and I’m sure he will pass along the info to me! You guys are GREAT and I’m glad all of you have my back!
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
“Justice requires truth :: and truth bravery”
(pinched from somewhere else because I liked it)
I applaud every single person who stands up to these self help gurus and questions thems, argues with them, challenges them and puts them in their place …….. on the same level as everyone else!
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
It’s somewhat sad that people had to die for some to realize that the success/self-help scene is full of fraudsters and wannabes. Even with Ray behind bars, as he’ll soon be for sure, there’s far too many people telling you how to find inner peace, freedom or success (or booty) who have no clue about these things in the first place and either enjoy ripping people off or have the lacking grasp of reality of a five year old who thinks praying to Lego god will get him better christmas presents.
What makes these guys think that by coming up with arbitrary terms, models or progressions they’ve somehow found not a placebo, but universal “secrets” of success and happiness? Why, after over one decade of positive psychology, y’know, scientific advice about how to live a fulfilled life and deal with your fears and problems, do we still have mostly these guys selling their crap, which is either useless, dangerous by neglect (such as telling a suicidal person to wear thankfulness-stones instead of getting professional help) or dangerous in themselves, as Ray-Ray’s torturous death camp?
Just imagine dying in there, not only will your friends and family lose and miss you, but your last days alive would be spent undergoing extraordinary and senseless suffering.
It reminds me of Sam Harris’ ultimate moral evil, every conscious member of society experiencing lasting pain for no reason. Fill the universe with more people like James Arthur Ray and we’ll get there in no time.
That’s why I still donate to JREF and skeptic groups in my own country, the only antidote to frauds like this is reason & science, either applied by the government by setting up stricter laws against woo-woo or by the (educated) masses, refusing to open their wallets for this crap. Ideally both.
Quite a rant, but this stuff makes me angry. It’s worse than a zero-sum crime (I steal your money, now I got more , you got less), it’s a disservice to society as a whole. Not only do these people get other people’s money without offering a (measurable) benefit, they also weaken the already insufficient skills of critical inquiry and skepticism of their followers, who then might fall for more woo-woo, or use their democratic rights to support people who do not deserve their support. It’s not a step towards “higher consciousness”, it’s a step back into the Dark Ages.
Clark
P.S. I followed Robbins and the gang for years until I discovered the health scams (feat. Chopra) and their mostly lacking history of “success” outside of the seminar industry. So if my post makes me sound like I’m the white knight of reason, untainted by superstition and woo-woo, I’m not and I’ll readily admit it. I’m recovering, at best.
WINNER!! ::
+19
[Reply]
anonymous Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 12:18 am
@Clark, Ditto!
P.S. I followed Robbins and the gang for years until I discovered the health scams (feat. Chopra) and their mostly lacking history of “success” outside of the seminar industry. So if my post makes me sound like I’m the white knight of reason, untainted by superstition and woo-woo, I’m not and I’ll readily admit it. I’m recovering, at best.
Ditto to that too!
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Deiss Affiliate Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:27 am
@Clark, Nice post
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 8:19 am
@Clark,
Being a former follower of Tony Robbins makes you more credible in my book, and more endearing.
Great post–thank you.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 1:36 pm
@Clark, Good comment. Count me among the recovered New-Wagers too. Though I’ve been in the critical camp for years, I’m hardly the voice of cool reason and logic myself. But because of my experiences and observations I think I do have a pretty firm grasp on the realities of New-Wage culture, and it always amuses me when my detractors grouse that I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that I am criticizing things I don’t understand. Even now I’m fielding James Ray defenders on Twitter — one in particular, who seems to think I don’t understand the Death Lodge situation at all. (I won’t mention any names like @shellwenzel)
Anyhow, Clark… welcome to the party! I agree with Hippo that your being a former follower of TR makes you all the more credible.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
@Clark ::
Nice comment. I think you’ll find many sympathizers with that reasonableness here.
FYI :: the position of white knight :: untainted by superstition and woo-woo :: has already been filled.
[Reply]
Jack Reply:
March 12th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
@Clark,
Ditto * infinity squared!
But not only about that- but also they ACTIVELY WORK AT learning and figuring out NEW WAYS to weaken those skills of their followers.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
@Clark,
Been there, done that. Nice to know we’re not alone and not necessarily stupid. (You certainly don’t seem so). :-)
[Reply]
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/10/arizona.sweat.lodge.trial/index.html
[Reply]
THANKS FOR DOING THIS! Thia case has caught my attention and its nic3 to read a common sense basis of whats happening. I agree totally.
[Reply]
Thanks for posting the audio’s. OMG—So bazaar-o.The man is insane.
When I was young my girlfriends and I would have slumber parties. And I remember how we would try to put each other in a trance, rub each others temples and then try and lift off the ground without being touched. It felt really real and it was fun. Oh,and it was dark with only candles.
These games that JR is playing reminds me of my slumber parties,except he’s playing with grown-ups, and its all more sophisticated and advanced.
I loved the JR harmonic wealth video and watched it twice (netflix). Thanks to salty droid, JR was put into proper context for me.
JR was never about spirituality, being equal and one with all people, being loving etc etc —– JR is all about business, profit, greed, deceit. Thanks to SD and all the enlightened contributors to this site. Keep the updates coming.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Where can I access the trial videos? Thanks
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 11th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
@Deiss Affiliate,
The trial is being broadcast on In Session on TruTV (formerly Court TV) and is being streamed live on live.cnn.com. It starts up again on Tuesday. On Monday and on Tuesday morning, TruTV will probably be replaying coverage of this week’s testimony.
[Reply]
Salty, Thank You for the Audio’s you’ve put on the site and for the incredible daily updates, not only on here, but on Twitter. You’re fantastic, and I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your efforts greatly.
Thanks again – Love your Updates. :-)
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Check out “Horizons Unlimited International” and you’ll see
what old his old man, Gordon Ray, has to offer!
[Reply]
@LaVaughn
The key to Dennis’ testimony is not that he was “brainwashed” and therefore would never dare to stop the ceremony. Rather, Dennis’ testimony was that he was in absolutely no frame of mind to even consider stopping the ceremony to help anyone else. It was like the survival instinct just took over. When one is fighting for their own life (or intensely feel they are) they are incapable of helping others. Mr. Ray intentionally ignored the medical emergencies taking place right in front of him. Remember Mr Ray was hearing people shouting that someone was not breathing and he simply said “we’ll deal with that in the next round”. That is intentionally ignoring a medical emergency and that should be powerful enough to convict him of reckless manslaughter (I’d love to see him get the maximum of 30+ years in the Pen).
To me this angle is far more damaging to mr. Ray’s defense than claims of “brainwashing” or “mind control” which are historically difficult to prove in American Courts. The fact is Ray irresponsibly placed these participants in extreme physical danger with no medical emergency safety net that should have been there. He then ignored obvious signs of medical emergencies happening around him and abused his position of authority in preventing anyone getting the help they desperately needed. From my limited legal understanding this is far more powerful legal argument. Sure participants were absolutely conditioned to follow Death Ray but that is tough to prove to the legal standard of reckless manslaughter as all the “defense experts” of In Session have claimed. I think the criminal culpability of JAR based on his complete and utter lack of medical preparations is the best angle with the psychological influence and conditioning being the secondary supporting factor if that makes sense.
I personally was surprised that the State of Arizona selected Rick Ross as their expert witness instead of a psychiatrist like Robert Jay Lifton or Peter A. Olsson who could expertly attest to the connection between psychologically conditioning and the medical aspect.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 4:46 am
@ChilonEphor,
Those are good points. The defense has been playing up the stereotype of “mind control” being something spooky out of a sci film, rather than what it really is – a refined version of the manipulations we and advertisers do to each other each day.
It’s easy to under-emphasize the degree to which Ray told straight out lies to participants in order to get their trust. “I was speaking to a native American friend just yesterday, and he said my sweat lodges are the best”. Etc. Etc.
What I hope the state is going to use Rick Ross for is to talk about the activities Ray got participants to do, the overall design of the event, and the way he used social control to build up his own authority.
The state has done a great job, I think, of showing that the activities were not likely to help participants improve their lives.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
@ChilonEphor ::
Those are good points. And in fact :: it’s the defense that keeps using the word “cult” not the prosecution.
You’re exactly right that from a legal perspective :: it’s the fact that people obviously needed help and he not only failed to render that help :: but actively discouraged it. He wanted it to be hot. He wanted them to get delusional. He knew people were unconscious from the heat. He closed the flap and let them die.
Unconscious adults can’t choose for themselves.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
@ChilonEphor, @Yakaru, @SD: Yes, excellent points. The brainwashing/mind control aspect is useful as a way of shedding light on how intelligent, educated adults could have let themselves be persuaded to participate in such a risky activity in the first place. And for that reason it is important. But after a certain point it comes down to reckless disregard on James Ray’s part: the fact that people obviously needed medical help, which JAR failed to give and aggressively discouraged others from giving.
This thread has made me realize that I’ve been taking the wrong tack with the JAR apologists and callous “personal responsibility” advocates with whom I’ve been arguing on Twitter. Like the defense, some of these folks are still arguing that the sweat lodge participants were all adults who had signed waivers and knew full well what they were getting into.
But as @SD so concisely put it, “Unconscious adults can’t choose for themselves.”
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
Plus, even if you’re not unconscious, if you’re starving and sleep-deprived, you can’t make rational decisions.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@, And/or so out of it from the heat that you wouldn’t even know how to leave if you could..
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
@wondering why,
Plus, people couldn’t see anything in the dark.
That “anonymous” comment up above was mine, by the way. My computer hates me.
Unicorn Army Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 2:51 am
@Cosmic Connie, etc… at this point, the jury knows that Death Ray held sway over the participants, that he had told them he was in charge, and that, when informed that someone had stopped breathing, he said, basically, “shut up and we’ll deal with that later.”
Seems like that’s enough to hang the bastard already. Regardless of anything else. Someone’s stopped breathing, you call off the “ceremony” and try to save their life. Ray didn’t do that, did he?
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
@Unicorn Army,
We can but hope.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
@Unicorn Army,
Exactly!
[Reply]
220 posts on this one discussion so far shows how passionate the public is that these matters be taken VERY seriously.
ChilonEphor I think that it would be quite accurate to say that James Ray was in no frame of mind to be able to adequately assist anyone let alone instruct any of his minions to be able to assist him with his god like journey he was already in a state of psychosis. He showed very little, if any, consideration for the concerns of the people asking questions, what few they had the chance to ask before they were hurriedly whisked off to the death oven.
It has become very obvious that these self help gurus cant rationalize whats going on in their head and know what is and what is not reality. The pathetic lies they live on a daily basis have rendered their state of life delusional. You only have to read the persistent posts about how people should live to see first hand that their lives have become a set of instructions and nothing more. They pour over all the sad stories, and twit philosophical quotes like they have a right of quote yet in their seminars they instruct people not to repeat the negatives, they say the negatives were brought onto people because of their belief systems. It makes absolutely no common sense whatsoever yet they cannot see the inconsistencies in the rubbish that constantly comes from them. They are in such a psychotic and delusional state about what is real that they don’t see, feel or hear anything of real value any more. They may as well lie comatose in bed and twit philosophical messages all day long because that pretty much sums up the substance of their output.
That which is truly ours can never be taken away.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Hi friends….check this article out….in the 2nd video clip, which they run consecutively and very quickly, Brad Brian, lead Attorney for the Defense Team, openly states that “James takes responsibility for this incident”.
I promptly gave the prosecutor a copy/reminder of this ;)
Y’all have a great day !
http://abcnews.go.com/US/guru-james-rays-tents-sweat-lodge-trial-starts/story?id=13025360&page=1
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 3:06 pm
@Moxie,
Brian Brad also stated that James immediately reached out to the families.
Bryan Neuman, you have my personal permission to snort loudly in disgust if that is mentioned in the courtroom. You can cover your nose and do the fake “horse shit” sneeze that guys would do in the back of the room in high school.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Colleen's brother-in-law Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 7:29 pm
@White Rabbit, we will also snort in disgust if it comes up
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 8:36 am
@White Rabbit,
I suppose that blowing a raspberry would be out of the question.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@Hippo,
Could you fart in his general direction?
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 7:03 pm
@Hippo,
Ah, raspberries….often effective but this is a court of law so we must exhibit a modicum of respect. Besides, James enjoys playing the subtle games, the ones done in front of others but their RAS doesn’t pick it up.
So let us do a practice round…1…2…3…group snort !!!
PS I meant Brad Brian above but was thinking about Bryan when typing. But do I really care?
[Reply]
Here’s something from the time of Ray’s arrest:
“Ray’s representatives have said there was no way Ray could have predicted the night’s tragic events. Had he heard any pleas for help inside the pitch-black sweat lodge, he would have stopped the ceremony immediately, Ray’s attorneys said.”
http://www.katu.com/news/83544282.html
There’s also a statement from the woman who was screaming obscenities and sexual stuff at Ray after the lodge. She was also later one who told people not to talk to investigators….
“One participant in the latest sweat lodge questioned the worth of having Ray behind bars and said he could do more good by speaking publicly about how to handle adversity and contributing financially to the families of the deceased – something the families have said hasn’t been done so far. “He can’t change what happened, but he can respond to what happened in a concrete, tangible way,” said Kristina Bivins of San Francisco. “His desire is to help the families, to help the Native American community, to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again.”
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
@wondering why, thank you so much for directing me back to Coleen’s Last Day. I had not been on that site for quite some time and I appreciate the heads up. I also posted a long…fairly detailed account of Colleen’s last days for anyone interested. Please forgive the typos…it’s a touchy subject and I’m tired tonight! You guys on Salty’s blog are all wonderful and your support does more for us than you will EVER know!
WINNER!! ::
+14
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 13th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
@Colleen’s sister,
I feel so helpless to do anything, and I am thrilled to hear that these messages are doing you some good.
I imagine that if I were in your position, it would be comforting to get any support at all, even from anonymous internet posters. Sometimes a stranger can say something comforting, because they’re a little more removed from the situation.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 11:18 am
@Colleen’s sister,
I am so glad that you connected with Sue Walton. I am really hoping her information can help in Collen’s case..I read your timeline about the events surrounding that fateful day at that seminar in San Diego in “Colleen’s Last Day”. Words cannot express how I much I wish Ray could be held accountable for the horrible things that were done to your sister by this maniac and his minions..
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Now I finally watched Salty’s “Just Words” video. I found out something new about money in the video where he said:
“You go to science. Quantum physics tells us everything is energy. Your house, your car, your body, your money, your ?”
The list had me to think about a TV show I watched as a kid with a funny big yellow bird where we could play a game called, “which of these things doesn’t belong”?
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
@Jack ::
So you don’t think that there is a sound scientific basis for the “fiat currency as energy” hypothesis?
Hater!
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-22
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 8:14 am
@Cheryl, I guess it depends on how you define “successful events.” The paramedics were called in 2005 because someone was unconscious. And James Ray had a enough of a clue that that might be a problem that he dialed the heat back in 2006. By 2007 he’d disregarded those concerns and started spiking the heat. Many people became ill in 2007. Connie Joy was one of them and she was disturbed enough that she broke from Ray and later wrote a book about her awakening to how dangerous he was.
I think the cultishness was James Ray’s doing and it’s pretty evident from the descriptions from a lot of people, beyond those who have already testified, how he did that. He’s a charismatic leader. That’s an actual classification of leadership styles, not a compliment. He had a responsibility to deliberately NOT steal their power. He did the exact opposite. Study your Stan Milgram and you will begin to understand how important is for any authority to be responsible in that way.
I mean, what is your evidence that these witnesses were prepped to act cultish? That they acted cultish? These witnesses don’t actually seem too prepped to me. A lot of them have said a lot that isn’t beneficial to the prosecution. I’ve actually found them to painfully honest, particularly Dennis Mehravar, who admitted that he wouldn’t have stopped the ceremony to help someone who was dying. I think it took a lot of courage for him to admit that publicly.
They were actively discouraged from asking more questions. They were told that knowing too much beforehand would mean that they would not get the most out of the seminar and that that’s why details were being DELIBERATELY withheld. It’s actually the responsibility of the organizers to require medical check-ups and health history based on the level of rigorousness of any given event. Everybody else does it. Why didn’t Ray?
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 8:24 am
@Cheryl,
I think I’ll go with the cause of death found for each of these people by the professional who performed the autopsies. I’m not quite sure why the cause of death would be hard to believe anyway…it’s the same reason you don’t leave children and pets in hot cars. James Ray is completely responsible and I think if you watch the trial – objectively- you will see that. It is being streamed live by CNN (live.cnn.com). Testimony starts again on Tuesday.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
31411 Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 10:17 am
@Cheryl What I would like to see and hear…..the “NAtive American” friend who JAR spoke to the day before the sweat lodge. In his first recording Sweat Lodge 101) JAR says that his “friend” approved of his sweat lodge and gave him a pat on the back for his “lodge”. BS! The lies…..just keep flowing then and now…It is soooo very sad that Colleen Conway’s story did not make headlines just 3.5 months before this tragedy caused by a complete meglamaniac.
I can’t even imagine what these participants were thinking when he goes into his 45 min talking…I mean puking of absolute absurdness especially after 36 hours in the desert without water and food. Urghhhhhh! Can’t believe how he speaks…..the words he says..I am listening to his last part of his sweat lodge instructions. $3-$5 dollars to the stone guy? Huh? Classic.
WINNER!! ::
+12
[Reply]
Europe Vigilance Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
@31411,
Listening to testimony in this case it is on record that people were vomiting, urinating and dying inside JAR’s ‘endurance tent’. This is NO PART of the practice of First Nations people. Freely urinating inside a Lodge would be considered a huge affront to this practice of purification. No Native American would hold people inside the Lodge if they were having difficulty, participants would be instructed to call for a ‘half door’, in which the door flap is lifted slightly showing enough light for the participant to exit safely and they would be ‘received’ outside by the doorkeeper who would provide care from that point. I suggest that JAR’s ‘friend’ in question here could not have been of the First Nations people as no native in their right mind would ‘pass a ladle’ to such a person. The Sweat-lodge proper is not an endurance test. It is not about ‘finishing’ and not related to such ego concerns in any way. For those interested in the view of actual First Nations people
“Our First Nations People have to earn the right to pour the mini wic’oni (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating Inikag’a – by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance. Then you are put through a ceremony to be painted – to recognize that you have now earned that right to take care of someone’s life through purification.”
Full text from Chief Arvol Looking Horse: http://www.manataka.org/page108.html#October_20,_2009
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 10:20 am
@Cheryl,
Your post is filled with misinformation and flat out falsehoods. You are also repeating the illogical angle of defense of Mr. Ray’s legal team. I suspect you are either a plant from Munger, Tolles and Olson or perhaps just a delusional fan of Death Ray.
(1) You are no position to speculate what is going on in Mr. Ray’s mind. How in the world can you speculate that he wasn’t aware how serious it was? One only has to hear the witness testimony to seriously doubt that Mr. Ray was unaware of what was going on. If Mr. Ray is that clueless as to what is happening around then he clearly should never have been running the event in the first place. If he is literally incapable of realizing that people are dying in a sweat that he is running that he clearly had no business running his faux version of a real sweat.
(2) There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever about some “mysterious toxin” emitting from the “wood or rocks”. The police investigation and the coroner’s reports are quite conclusive here. There was no “mysterious toxin” involved here. Additionally the symptoms of the those that passed away and those that survived but were hospitalized (ie, Dennis Mehravar and Sidney Spencer) are 100% consistent with rapid heat stroke and not at all consistent with some “mysterious toxin”. That is a desperate ploy of the defense attorneys to which there is zero, ziltch, nada supporting empirical evidence of any kind. In short, this is a rumor with no foundation in reality.
(3) The witnesses do not seem “cultist” due to the prosecution is prepping the witnesses much at all. Rather they seem absolutely devastated by participation in this event led by a man that they trusted who then broke that trust. As a previous poster ‘Injun Samurai’ has lucidly elaborated on in another thread, Mr. Ray violated just about every sacred rule of the Native American sweats.
WINNER!! ::
+16
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 11:38 am
@Cheryl, You, Kristina Bivins and the whole lot who still defend him are severely damaged. Remember, Applewhite,Koresh,Manson,Jim Jones, ALL still have supporters. Denial, Coercive Control and Cognitive Dissonance can control a human mind,often indefinitely. Bivins is one of the “undead” bitten by the Master Shampire. However,we’re not in Transylvania and all of you have the chance to redeem yourselves. To start, just shut your mouths and allow truth to prevail.
P.S. Anyone new to reading the Salty Droid,I suggest clicking james arthur ray on the Home page. Here are some links with great pics of the Real James Arthur Ray: http://saltydroid.info/interview-with-the-shampire/ http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray-manslaughterer/
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
@Cheryl,
Those were not objective thoughts. Four deaths within three months is more than enough. Please stop.
WINNER!! ::
+12
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
@Cheryl ::
You lost that argument … literally … correct?
[Reply]
I cannot begin to describe my apoplectic rage over this tragedy. I have an indirect connection with one of the victims. Kirby Brown was a good friend of my friend. She stopped by on her way down to this seminar to drop off her dog to be cared for while she attended what would be her last event on this earth. Upon her death, my friend was the one that went down to Angel Valley to collect Kirby’s things. I mourn for the loss of this good woman as well as the other two victims and those that were injured but survived. It was tragic and IMO Ray is totally responsible for it.
I know about sweat lodges. I have been taught and have poured lodges for the past 20 years. Not only that, but I have been organizing and producing a Vision Quest camp over the same time. My teacher was a Chief of a Lakota clan from the Pine Ridge reservation. I know the ultimate responsibility of one who facilitates a sweat lodge ceremony is for the welfare and protection of the participants, NO MATTER WHAT.
I listened to the first few minutes of Ray’s talk and introduction to the sweat that he was giving the people at this seminar. When he said he talked with a *native* friend of his who said that no one has been in a lodge like yours and no one conducts lodges like you except maybe the Lakota and they’re crazy, I got very sad.
It’s not a competition. It’s never a competition. It’s about helping people to a place of prayer and gratitude only. It’s not about pushing someone’s *envelope* where they die. It’s paying attention to what is going on and respecting the place where any individual may find his or her self.
I have been in screaming hot lodges before (Lakota teacher) but the difference was there was always a cool down in between rounds and only 4 rounds. We have had over 100 rocks in a smaller lodge and the only water put on the rocks was from an eagle fan dipped in water and dripped onto the rocks not gallons and gallons that Ray dumped on the rocks. The man knows nothing of a ceremony. It was not a ceremony it was a sweat event.
But for now I wonder about those that survived and what is being done to care for them?
WINNER!! ::
+23
[Reply]
Robert Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
@Rubies,
As a firekeeper I have assisted elders at many lodges. What you say Rubies in my experience is exactly correct. Further, I was invited to attend one of Mr. Ray’s Harmonic Weekends and my impression at that time as I listened to him was that he was very dangerous. As result, the friends who brought me did not sign up for his expensive package of courses. I found him to be extremely arrogant and disrespectful to the same people he was attempting to enroll. Looking back I can see his energetic control begins from the first time a person meets James Ray.
Aside from the powerful control Mr. Ray exerted, in the case of this lodge James Ray violated basic inipi (sweat lodge)tenets. First, there are four doors not eight. Yes, there are times we have a healing round or fifth door. That tends to be very hot and very brief, and most importantly by invitation. The healing round is not for everyone. Second, as Rubies said; way too much water was poured on these grandfathers. I have never heard of the entire five gallons poured on the grandfathers each round. Third, the elder is ultimately responsible for each person in the lodge. At the first suggestion of struggle we stop and bring the person out to cool down and rehydrate. It is done with compassion and respect. In fact, on warm days we will often exit the lodge after each round. As was just said, it is never used as a competition or to break people.
More than anything this event was very sad, tragic and competely avoidable.
My prayers are with those who passed on, their family and friends and all those who attended and survived. More will be revealed…
WINNER!! ::
+16
[Reply]
Lucy Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
@Robert, You may be able to fool the nons, but the skinz know what a fake you are! NO legit ‘fire-keeper’ would EVER go online and reveal ANY details about how a sacred rite is conducted. I’m tired of all these arrogant fake assholes coming out of the wood work and declaring themselves to be sweat lodge experts. You are just as fraudulent as James Ray is. You take advantage of the incredibly ignorance of the nons reading this site who desperately want to believe that some legit ‘sweat lodge expert’ will reveal secrets to them. Don’t be gullible fools people! Those who know, don’t tell ….EVER ! Those who tell, just plain don’t know. Robert is just another wannabe poser.
[Reply]
Rubies Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
@Lucy,
I’m actually surprised you are taking issue with Robert and not me. I’m the one who had claimed to be conducting sweat lodge ceremonies for 20 years. His only claim was as a fire-keeper. There was nothing that Robert said to make me believe he was posing as a sweat lodge expert but as a fire-keeper he has to have an understanding about the inipi.
When I make these claims I understand that disbelieve in such claims is a real possibility. There is nothing I can say that can ever prove to anyone’s satisfaction of what I may say is the truth. If you believe me great if not then OK so you don’t. Take it or leave it. You choose.
Normally I would never go to any one message board such as this and make the claim that I have. So in a way you are right that the ones that do know don’t tell just anyone. I would say the real ones don’t advertise at all, however, this is a special circumstance.
There were deaths that happened and in order for this ceremony to still be held sacred, the truth needs to come forth to be shown. There needs to be some sort of basis of knowledge and understanding established in order for all to see that what happened was the work of an ignorant man and his arrogance and nothing else. It was not the ceremony itself that killed those people. It was tragically done by the performance of a fallible man who knew nothing of the proper way to conduct a strong and meaningful rite in the practice of a spiritual life for those who may have selected to follow it.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
@Rubies, @Lucy, @Robert And perhaps for those of us who do not practice native rituals, or any type of religious or spiritual rituals, most of the points about ritual authenticity are either moot or are overshadowed by other issues. I understand the need to let “nons” know that James Ray’s Spiritual Warrior events were not authentic sweat lodges. I think that has been pretty well established from the time the story first broke. And I’ll concede that the questions about the authenticity — or lack thereof — of the Spiritual Warrior sweat events are also useful to help demonstrate that James Ray was a charlatan. (The point being: If he lied about having been trained or blessed by a tribal elder or whatever, what else was he lying about? I think it has also been fairly well established, at least here and on other critical forums, that JAR was/is a professional liar.)
Maybe Rubies said it best: “There needs to be some sort of basis of knowledge and understanding established in order for all to see that what happened was the work of an ignorant man and his arrogance and nothing else. It was not the ceremony itself that killed those people. It was tragically done by the performance of a fallible man who knew nothing of the proper way to conduct a strong and meaningful rite in the practice of a spiritual life for those who may have selected to follow it.”
With all due respect to everyone involved: For the purpose of sorting out what happened in Sedona (and San Diego) and why it happened, I don’t think it serves the conversation very well for participants to point fingers at each other and hurl insults regarding who’s “real” and who’s “fake.” I understand why people feel strongly about these matters. I try to respect everyone’s culture. (And I’ve often made fun of privileged white folks (my demographic) who seek to immerse themselves in the indigenous culture du jour just because it’s the hip or trendy thing to do.) These are all valid discussion points, but perhaps more suited for other threads. In my view, the core issue here remains that good people lost their lives because they put their trust in an egocentric sociopath.
And as the courtroom drama continues to unfold, we’ll see if there’s any justice for the Sedona victims and their loved ones. As for justice for the San Diego victim (Colleen Conaway)…well, I’m still hoping.
[Reply]
Did I call it a “sweat event” I meant to say what Ray did was a sadistic obscenity.
[Reply]
Watching this twist and turn makes me sick to my stomach, it really does. I hope he rots in hell.
[Reply]
Andrew Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-6
[Reply]
ALLCAPS ANONYMOUS Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 11:50 am
@Andrew,
YEAH JUST AN ACCIDENT NBD NOT GROSS AND CALLOUS NEGLIGENCE. ITS LIKE, ONE TIME I WUZ RIDIN MY BIKE AND THIS GUY RAN ME OVER IN HIS CAR BUT I WAS ALL NO PROB DUDE, I FORGIVE YOU CUZ YRE, LIKE, NARCOLEPTIC AND HAVE APNEA AND NEW CAR SMELL PROBLEMS.
Go play with matches, buddy.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
@Andrew,
Even if that was the case, you stupid brainless dickhead, then it still wouldn’t be a “tragic accident”. It would still be criminal negligence and someone else would be sitting in jail along with your hero.
Death Ray was locked up because he failed to act. It wouldn’t change a thing if it was your beloved rat poison that killed people instead of heat. He would still have been found guilty. Just ask the jury.
[Reply]
What the what Reply:
July 14th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
@Andrew,
I heard they had this whole big trial and everything about it. There were all these facts and stuff. Rumor has it some news agencies reported on it…and there was some blog…can’t remember what it was called Salty dog or Signing Droid or something like that…that reported on the whole thing and you can learn about what really happened.
(do I need a sarcasm tag or is it coming off clear enough?)
[Reply]
Does anybody know if Death Ray himself is going to take the stand at any point? I was assuming the defense wouldn’t be that stupid but given the blunders they’ve done so far, I’m starting to wonder.
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 9:56 am
@Sheila,
I do not believe it is known whether Ray will take the stand. The Defense does not have to declare this until the Defense begins.
@ Yakaru @Cosmic Connie @SD
All excellent points. Thank you for responding and providing those points of view. I do agree
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
@Sheila,
The questions for jury selection which the defense put forward included a question about “Do you understand that a defendant may decline to testify”.
So I doubt it!
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
No way he testifies.
His inhuman demeanor is testimony enough.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 15th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
@SD, I love how just now CNN cameras followed Ray and his “team” out to the car and we got to see his squinty eyes and head ducking down like a big coward. He was so nervous and bothered by the presence of the news crews. This is priceless. You just know he’s dying to tell all of them “Fuck off!” but he doesn’t get to ’cause he’s not the boss of anybody anymore.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Ed Dale Scam Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 8:50 am
@Jean D, that’s exactly what I though too. Once upon a time he would have gone ballistic but now he knows he has to keep his mouth shut. It must be killing him.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
@SD, do you know if Megan or Josh Fredrickson are going to testify?
[Reply]
Today, both Lois Li and Tom Kelly made some awful strawman arguments. In the pre-jury debates, Li mischaracterizes the State’s argument. Li falsely argues that the State’s stance is that Defendant Ray words were induced participants. Yet it was not just Defendant Ray’s words that induced participants to ignore their body. It was the actions of Mr. Ray during the course of the entire week, in addition to his words and the psychological pressure Mr. Ray exerted that established the psychological conditioning for participants to follow Mr. Ray and never question his authority.
Tom Kelly then played a dirty trick. First, he approached the witness without asking permission (an error Li made as well with Dennis). Then he had Beverley show how far from Kirby Brown she was sitting. Then he launched into a series of questions that was probably designed to induce Beverley to admit that she heard Kirby called for help and did nothing. Yet, the flaw is that Mr. Kelly failed to recognize that in Beverley’s initial testimony she clearly stated that by the time things got chaotic, she had moved to the other side of the lodge.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 1:03 am
@Chilon~Ephor, I thought Kelly came off really badly here. He was obviously wrong on fact and when he was corrected, his response was to make it a yes or no question. (???) And he was badgering and abusive. Hughes should have objected to the badgering. And then he made her cry. I don’t think this helps the defense. It made Kelly look like a bully, reminded the jury that Bunn was also a traumatized survivor, and underscored that Ray, who was running things also did nothing. I’m not a lawyer but I thought he stepped on his crank. And I think the defense has done so repeatedly. I could be wrong. The jury could be eating it up but it made me wince.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Maureen Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 7:07 am
@LaVaughn, you are so right and I have to believe that the jury was turned off by his behavior.
[Reply]
And James Ray shows up as James Ray. At least he acknowledged that they had spent a LOT OF TIME AND MONEY TO BE THERE. Half ass….. half ass show.
[Reply]
I’m thinking of going down and watching the trial in person. It’s going to last for months and I’m close enough that it would not be hard to do. If I go though, I cannot be held responsible for the spit wads and dirty looks aimed at Masser Ray while I’m there.
Any messages you want me to convey telepathically of course. [/wink]
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Can you post the link to Beverly Bunn’s emotional testimony? I’ve searched all over this site and also did a quick Google, couldn’t find anything. Sorry if it’s already been posted somewhere here and I missed it. Thanks in advance.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 8:11 am
@422, I don’t know if it’s the part you’re looking for but I’ve posted a partial transcript here. They’re also re-running parts of it this morning on In Session. I had to turn it off. I can’t watch it twice. Kelly really turned my stomach.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 10:12 am
@LaVaughn, I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the information and thoughtful analysis you provide on your blog about the JAR trial. I just tweeted about your blog and (of course!) Salty’s as being good sources for information about the trial. For those of us who for various reasons can’t watch all of it live, these info sources are invaluable.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 11:18 am
@Cosmic Connie, I thank you for the feedback. I’m glad you’re finding it useful. I’m finding it a useful catharsis. I can tell you that. I can’t say I’m getting all the live footage but I’ve been watching a lot. My poor husband has taken to calling himself a trial widow.
[Reply]
why does James Ray have a black eye in the mug shot? How did that happen?
[Reply]
Mark from Just Accountant Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@kate,
Let’s just call it Karma.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 6:46 pm
@kate ::
Sexual self asphyxiation is a great way to end up with black eyes … correct?
[Reply]
Is anybody else watching the trial with JAR testifying? What the heck happened to his face … he looks like Pee Wee Herman. I’m sure it was a very calculated attempt to make himself look like an innocent little boy.
[Reply]
Never mind – I’m an idiot. The guy testifying today looks like JAR but it’s not him.
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
@Ain’t no law,
It’s Steven Ray..Same last name.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
@wondering why, I thought he did a great job. Sincere and genuine guy.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 5:04 pm
@Ain’t no law ::
The resemblance was uncanny though :: he looks just like Death Ray with a non psychopath’s face
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
@Ain’t no law,
I read the summary of Stephen Ray’s testimony and he states that he’s having trouble with his memory. I am hoping that we will start to get a better picture of the injuries to the people who survived. I’m thinking that somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 people have long-term injuries that will not get better.
There has been very little said about these folks. I’m not sure about the relevancy of their injuries to the three who died, but I would like to see this information come to light.
[Reply]
I’m listening to people’s responses to the testimony of witnesses in the James Arthur Ray’s trial, who say they wouldn’t have allowed themselves to be pressured into surrendering their lives into some slick salesman’s hands. To which I say, be careful about your certainties.
Most of us, if confronted by a crisis in which we have no expertise, would indeed defer to authorities that we think know more than us. Dr. Stanley Milgram, a distinguished Yale psychology professor, designed one of the most controversial experiments ever conducted. In 1961, Milgram measured the willingness of people to obey the orders of an authority figure, even if that authority instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. His book, Obedience To Authority, An Experimental View (1974), makes it clear that most people when faced with a situation in which they have no experience/knowledge, will leave the decision-making to someone with greater authority.
Why did these bright, competent, energetic people surrender their autonomy to this quack?
As a species we are programmed to seek answers to questions, and in our culture we have come to expect that we can find them fast. But some questions don’t lend themselves to easy answers, like the existential, meaning and purpose of life questions. In an age of quick fixes, anyone who says they have an answer to those soulful questions will find an audience ready to listen.
Human’s, by their nature are also wired to be social animals who need to connect with others, we need approval, and to trust in someone other than ourselves if we are to survive.
Along comes James Arthur Ray, a sales trainer by profession, who says I have the answer to your needs, and will make you a “spiritual warrior”. My secrets come with a high price; you have to be able to afford it, and you must trust me enough to place your life in my hands. The participants in that torturous sweat lodge were seekers who believed James Ray would lead them to a place they wanted to get to.
It’s of course true that James Ray did not physically restrain participants from leaving, but he surely did emotionally. Those people chose to stay because they believed they would have failed this test of their spiritual courage as Ray sold it to them.
The witnesses stayed in that sweat lodge even as their friends were dying next to them, and they will have to live with that memory forever. It’s a hard lesson that James Arthur Ray had to teach all of us; do not surrender your life into someone else’s hands until you know them by more than just their words.
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@Carl Hammerschlag MD, Good points. Matter o’fact, our fake robot host wrote a couple of posts about the Milgram experiment and the Asch conformity experiment.
http://saltydroid.info/sheeple-part-1-obedience/
http://saltydroid.info/sheeple-part-2-conformity/
[Reply]
Jack Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 11:45 pm
@Cosmic Connie,
I can’t see this one on those links:
http://psychology.about.com/b/2009/01/14/researchers-replicate-milgrams-famous-obedience-experiment.htm
Can that experiement be any good?
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
@Carl Hammerschlag MD,
I think the mistake that some of us make is that we see ourselves as we are now, and can’t fathom slipping into the clutches of James Ray or someone like him. What we fail to understand is the slow process of indoctrination which takes place over months, sometimes years.
Something which seems outrageous to us today might seem reasonable if it were presented to us slowly, in increments, over a long period of time.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 12:07 am
@Hippo, One of the disturbing things about the Milgram experiment was that it didn’t even happen slowly, over time. It was immediate. They weren’t broken down. They were presented with an experiment that seemed cruel, in which they were supposed to administer that cruelty, but an authority figure was telling them to do it. And they did. Submission to authority, playing follow the leader… it’s part of our make-up. It’s something we have to actively, consciously resist on a continual basis.
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 7:21 am
@LaVaughn,
Yes, I understand. That’s a very good point. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned the Zimbardo experiment, either. Now that I think about it, Zimbardo’s prison scenario is not that different from James Ray’s “God” game.
I was thinking more along the lines of what would persuade someone to pay $10,000 and go all the way to Arizona with this guy? The people who were willing to do so had already experienced something which convinced them that this would be a worthwhile investment.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
@Hippo, My husband’s question from the beginning has been, why didn’t they get Phil Zimbardo as an expert witness instead of Rick Ross. No question of credentials there. I may get into the Stanford Prison experiment and the correlation at some point. There are some very intriguing parallels. One of Zimbardo’s points is that the leader is not separate from the organization he’s running. He’s part of the system and he discovered his OWN capacity to abuse power when it was handed to him. That’s part of why he stopped the experiment.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
@LaVaughn ::
Well … Zimbardo is like as old as a Redwood for one thing. And getting experts is tricky :: and uber-expensive. It’s a whole seedy industry … which darkly colored the previous generations cult fighters … IMO.
But … but … it would have been so super awesome!
His newer stuff about being :: and environmentally breeding :: heroes is also applicable here I thinks.
Hippo Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 10:12 pm
This is to Mr. Salty:
I saw Dr. Zimbardo on either Colbert or Jon Stewart within the last couple of years, and he didn’t look that old.
I’m not sure if the defense would try to tear his experiment apart because it’s 40 years ago?
Although I’m sure it would cost an arm and a leg to get somebody like him to testify.
mojo Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
@LaVaughn,
In a former life I used to rent, project and hence watch documentary films in an academic context (working at a college). My introduction to the Milgram experiment was a black and white film put out by Penn State called “Obedience”. Zimbardo’s was also filmed, and called “Quiet Rage”.
I’m not sure if they’re available outside of academia, but they are both excellent overviews.
“Obedience” was particularly popular on the campus where I “worked” (if you can call watching movies all day working!); I have probably seen it over twenty times, and at least once I hiked the film reel and projector home to show my husband, since it always had such a chilling impact on me. (This would be over 20 years ago, in the dinosaur era of the 16mm film.)
Both “Obedience” and my own life experiences has slapped some compassion in me regarding the actions of others during times of great stress. IMO we all have very high opinions of ourselves, and we like to imagine that we’ll always do the right thing and always behave nobly and bravely. But when you’re actually stuck in a horrible, horrible situation, you don’t always meet those high expectations created in the “what if” idle fantasies you may play in your head. And that’s not even getting into the whole idea of influence or mind control, but just as a “normal” person who suddenly finds themselves in a crisis situation.
On the other hand, my life experiences also note that SOME people are going to be amoral, selfish little weasels no matter what situation they are in. They are in the minority, thank heavens, but that’s why we need the court systems…
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 11:44 pm
@mojo, Obedience. I’m pretty sure it’s what I posted here. It finds its way onto YouTube periodically then gets pulled down. I’ve been meaning to sit down and watch the whole thing again, myself. I haven’t watched it since college. But I never got over it.
[Reply]
mojo Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 7:00 am
@LaVaughn,
Yep, that’s it! Thanks so much for the link. Surprised it’s still up–Penn State owns a boatload of copyrights to various documentaries and the public performance rights are quite the cash cow for them.
I always loved the increasing level of hysteria behind the labels put on the shock switches–up to the super-scary-looking “X”s. It’s worth it just to see that again. :-)
While it’s true that people weren’t actually harmed (meaning physically shocked) during Milgram’s experiment, many researchers believe the subjects suffered from psychological trauma and/or abuse as a result of participating. One ethical byproduct was, Milgram’s experiments changed how review boards grant permission to experiments involving human subjects; the “Obedience” experiments as originally performed would not be approved today. Too bad there is no such board governing the self-help industry….
Thanks first to Salty…love carrot cake and hate cult leaders too!
And thanks @Carl…you have a good understanding of coercive persuasion.
As Margaret Thaler Singer states in her book “Cults In Our Midst”…”People will often say, “That wouldn’t happen to me, I wouldn’t get caught in a cult.”
to which her reply was always “Don’t bet”. Having counseled 1,000 of ex-cult members she was completely aware of how many people end up in these groups and never have any idea what they are getting themselves into…doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs.
I belonged to a “cult” for ten years and I was not aware it was a cult…until I walked away and googled the word “cult”. After reading everything I could find online I contacted an exit counselor, Joe Szimhart
and set up a phone call with him. I didn’t have to talk much…he simply told me everything that I had been involved with, which was at the time so weird cause I thought, “how does he know?”.
Of course now I understand that there is some manual floating around that each of these “high demand leaders aka shitheads” read and also apparently follow word for word…who knew.
I’ve been following this case since I first learned my friend James Shore had died in that sweat (death) box.
I see so many people saying that the people who died were some kind of fools and that so upsets me. My friend was no fool. Yes, he was searching, as we all search for meaning in some way but he and those who died that day did not deserve to die simply for searching for some meaning in this crazy life.
Cults come in all shapes and sizes, sometimes they are churches, sometimes they are families, sometimes they are acting coaches, a lot of times they are some new wage cult. “End times” produce many of these types.
Mostly the folks who get caught in these scams are good and decent people. People who feel that their life and their world can be a better place if only…
Upon leaving the cult I was in and after talking with Joe Szimhart I couldn’t stand the fact that I had been used to recruit others and while some part of my brain understood that I was not responsible for my guru’s shit or the brainwashing influences I had been under, my heart said I was responsible.
So I worked hard for three years to exit counsel over 30 devotees that I helped recruit and fought tooth and nail to see my cult leaders in court.
I can sleep now knowing that I did all I could do to stop them.
I hope that JAR’s followers can one day, do the same.
WINNER!! ::
+21
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 6:39 pm
Thanks Kim :: nice comment.
I too hope that the rest of JAR’s followers will slowly trickle out into the light …
It’s never too late to regain yourself!!
[Reply]
Ya’ll know I like to compare Ray to other serial killers…some recent pics of ray in court show him covering his mouth,an indication of lying,hiding something.
http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=40820
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//110308/480/urn_publicid_ap_org_fe53f7fc112f4c61b7de887bada174f7/
I was reminded me of Dennis Rader,the BTK Killer,who covered his mouth frequently while listening to testimony against him. Here are a couple of those images:http://www.life.com/image/53406060 http://www.life.com/image/53402396
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 16th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
@Jean D,
I noticed that Jean..It seems that every time the camera pans to him he has his hands up around his mouth..I was kind of wondering about that..I was wondering if it was nervous tick as he seems to be stroking his face, mouth and chin area a lot..Casy Anthony, the girl who alledgedly killed her child did a lot of self grooming in court(until her lawyers stopped her)..Maybe it’s a sociopathic tic or something..
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 12:23 am
@Jean D, Tom Kelly does that a lot, too. At one point Ray, Kelly, and Li were all doing it simultaneously. My husband’s read was that it was a subconscious (or subliminal) way of saying, Shhhhh… to the witness. I know that a lot of authorities also consider face touching while talking to be a “tell” that someone is lying. But, it’s definitely interesting and bears watching.
[Reply]
Artur Król Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 4:25 am
@LaVaughn, @Jean D – face touching is basically a low-status behavior, an attempt for protection (people acting high status expose their neck, face and belly, low status try to cover them or have their hands in the area for defense). It’s a rather primal signal, which, while it doesn’t neccessairly mean “I’m lying” does mean “I’m uncertain/I feel weak/I feel exposed”.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 6:37 am
@Artur Król, I have noticed he places his index or index and middle finger on his upper lip. Knowing that JAR nevers does anything with a purpose, I suspected it had something to do with accupressure or energy meridians and that he was using that technique to keep calm and in control of his emotions. Someone schooled in energy healing will know. I was able to find this reference http://www.tapintoeft.com/eft-tapping-points/default.html . The suggestion of silencing the witnesses is certainly a strong possibility and he certainly could have convinced the attorneys to follow him in that practice – what have they got to lose?
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 8:57 am
@, Good one..I never thought about that..Putting up his finger to his mouth like he is shushing the witnesses..He does do a lot of hand gestures for effect.Like that weird placement of his hands and fingers when he was getting arrested on his perp walk..
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 9:26 am
@wondering why,
He was doing a mudra.
Anonymous Reply:
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:40 am
@Artur Król,
James has always done this. he thinks it makes him look toughtful. A typical James reaction to look like he is interested in what is going on.
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 9:53 am
@Jean D, @LaVaughn, @Artur Krol
I too have noticed this behavior on the part of James Ray. During last weeks testimony he would either consciously or unconsciously cover his lips with index finger and middle finger at certain points during testimony. I noticed when he did this corresponded almost perfectly with when the witnesses were testifying something damaging to Mr. Ray. LaVaughn my first impression was exactly like your husband’s read that it was a way of indicating shhh, be quiet.
So I went back to some of my old books from cognitive linguistics. David McNeill from the University of Chicago runs a Gesture Lab and his book Gesture and Thought provides an excellent framework for analyzing gestures. Clearly this is defensive gesture because I observed it numerous times when witnesses were making damaging testimony to Mr. Ray but never when the Defense attorneys were “winning points”. I definitely think the index+middle finger over the lips contains an element of the shh quality as well. Finally, it looks like it might also be a way of combining that with a covert “flipping off” gesture. Often when people try to subtly/not so subtly flip someone off, they tilt the hand in precisely the way Ray does. So I believe it is both an subconscious defensive tell meant to SHHH the witness and also a covert attempt to express the whole F-U to people who are testifying against him.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
didems Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
@Chilon~Ephor,”.. I too have noticed this behavior on the part of James Ray. During last weeks testimony he would either consciously or unconsciously cover his lips with index finger and middle finger at certain points during testimony..”
Some evil code no doubt.
[Reply]
didems Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
@didems, I know …. its JR’s digital download.
[Reply]
Rubies Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
@didems,
I saw today during Lou Cachi’s (sp?) testimony about Liz Neuman that Ray was dabbing his eyes as if crying and blew his nose. How real was that do you suppose?
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 10:40 pm
@Rubies,
In the book “Tragedy in Sedona” Connie Joy told how Ray can cry on cue..He would cry at the very same place every time in his seminars.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 6:50 pm
@Chilon~Ephor,et al I thought so,too,when I saw the photo of the entire team covering their lips while Jennifer Haley was testifying,like they were controlling what she was saying. I still like comparing Ray to Rader;two monsters in courtrooms.
[Reply]
Disgusted at the loss of these beautiful people who simply seemed to be seeking to better their lives and sadly put their trust in some half baked lame ass fake preacher man whose wallet grew fat on other peoples hard work. God these people are shameless.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Oh, dear. That picture of James Shore and his family makes me cry.
I hate James Ray more than ever.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Argh. Salty, that picture is heartbreaking. Brings home the magnitude of the crime.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-18
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
@Sandy ::
I do love being hurtful towards Canada for no reason :: but I’ll presume this is the wrong venue.
Some psople are idiots though …
[Reply]
didems Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
@Sandy, Yeh prolly not the spot for personal pickons otherwise you just might get me started.
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-7
[Reply]
didems Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
@Europe Vigilance, I can agree more with this statement:
“If you see something. Say something”.
Inaction is a very silent and deadly weapon of destruction. I really applaud everyone around the world who has stood up to the egotistical fake idiots in the secret who have screwed up so many peoples lives through their greed and deceit particularly the ones who think that they have some superhuman right to tell people how to live their own lives while sucking as much money out of them as they can and then boasting about what they purchased with that money.
[Reply]
Jean D Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
@Europe Vigilance, During the week leading up to the heat trap,these people were conditioned to NOT speak up.They were promised that focus on self would help them achieve their goals.Ray was marketed by powerful people like Oprah and all the major network talk shows as a legitimate, accomplished self-help leader. Problems with his events were swept under the carpet.
Please take time to review this website to a greater depth. If you,sir/madam, are NOT a Ray defense team “plant” or minion, you will no longer make reference to the participants’ “lack of action”. Such a suggestion is not to be tolerated by those of us who post regularly on the Salty Droid’s blog. I see it as a distraction and perfectly in line with the Defense strategy.
There is only one person to blame for 3,actually 4 2009 deaths,and that is James Arthur Ray,although his minions Greg Hartle,Megan Fredrickson,Josh Fredrickson,Michele Goulet,and others, must be held accountable.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
wondering why Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
@Europe Vigilance, A lot of those people in the “Sweat Lodge” were just trying to survive themselves and were out of it mentally due to the outrageous heat in the lodge..Don’t blame the other victims..Ray is the one that IS resposible for the deaths and damage done to the participants..
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 12:07 am
@Europe Vigilance ::
Your personality assessment of Mr. Caci :: along with being pointless :: is totally wrong. They are asking him seriously hard questions about ultra traumatic experiences on a day where he’s lost hours worth of his memories … blackout style.
He had no moral obligation to help Liz :: he was almost dead himself :: and by the time he noticed her … it was probably too late. Liz started losing it in the 4th round :: she needed to be dragged out the first time Laura Tucker warned James Ray about it.
People were demanding help :: that wasn’t enough. Nothing short of a full on hero freak-out :: tearing the sides off the death trap and then direct and forceful confrontation with Mr. Ray :: could have stopped this.
And then :: just to shatter the illusions of all you fools living in la la land :: the person who carried out the life saving freak-out would receive the absolute and total scorn of the whole group. Then they’d be barred from future participation … and the #sweatlodge deaths of 2009 would have happened in 2010.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 12:17 am
@SD, AMEN, Salty!!! THUMBS UP !!!!
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Kim Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 7:26 am
@SD,
Thanks.
To the point, with no bullshit.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 12:21 am
@Europe Vigilance, LAY OFF Lou Caci. You don’t know him. You don’t know what he has been thru. You don’t know his background – his story – his personal struggles with this whole catastrophe. In a nutshell, You KNOW NOTHING.
There is much Wisdom in Silence….I suggest your pompous ass use it in situations like this where you KNOW NOTHING but think you know everything.
LAY THE FUCK OFF.
WINNER!! ::
+13
[Reply]
Unicorn Army Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 8:19 am
@Europe Vigilance,
The defense attorneys have tried to put words in every witness’s mouth. They’ve tried to make each and every one more responsible for these deaths than James Ray.
Testifying in a criminal trial is a brutal experience.
Unless you’ve experienced that yourself, it’s hard to understand. The adversarial justice system puts a great deal of pressure on the witness in criminal cases. It may be a necessary evil, but it’s still brutal.
This man was badly injured and the defense will still try to get him to accept the blame for Ray’s crimes.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-9
[Reply]
White Rabbit Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@Sandy,
Beverly Bunn and Jennifer Haley were not from Canada.
[Reply]
Listening to James Shore’s audio and reading the facts, it must be realized that he was NOT stupid, like some of the trolls have stated. He was intelligent and someone who took the responsibility of family and spirituality serious. Those three children will be scarred for life. . They will be affected for the rest of their lives. So young and already experiencing the ugliest of this world… it is truly sad.
WINNER!! ::
+14
[Reply]
I want to know what the *Secret* has Ray manifesting in his reality from all of this.
I just wonder if he’s pondering this at all?
[Reply]
Salty, while I understand the instinct to defend James Shore as a real “spiritual warrior”, and that he was certainly more of a spiritual warrior than Ray, I this is a bit problematic and kind of avoids the heart of the matter: which is that Shore was, unfortunately, spiritually deluded, and by no means a “spiritual warrior” from the perspective of any spiritual tradition of which I am aware. He may have been brave, a good father and overall great person, but this does not make him “spiritual.” There are many people (I hope) who see me as a nice person; but that doesn’t make me spiritual, or on a path where I really am able to fight a spiritual battle (which I would admit is an area of my life that needs a lot of work, to say the least.) Of course, one can’t fully judge from the brief tape here and other published accounts what kind of man James Shore was, but the accounts out there seem to reflect a decent and good man and one who did what was right to help others, all founded on a basically solid character. But it is clear from what he says in this tape that he had been led down a very deluded path. It would be disrespectful to him and his family to somehow suggest that what he seems to have been led to believe was somehow true for him when it if fact led to his delusion and early death. I have met quite a few of these “new agers” who think they are on the road to being an “enlightened master.” In my experience those who talk about this or who are encouraged to talk about this are actually getting more deluded the more they talk about it. It’s a hypnotizing lie that frauds like Ray encourage in their followers. Not saying there are no enlightened masters out there; I hope to God there are. I know of one elderly leader of a traditional Buddhist temple who is continuing a very long and authentic spiritual lineage, and he has no time or patience for such talk, either about himself or in his students. The Dalai Lama himself refers to himself as a “simple monk,” for pete’s sake. Watch out for those who encourage this quick road to being an “enlightened master” in this lifetime, especially when they’re charging money for it. It was precisely the ability to believe this sad and tempting lie that led to these peoples’ deaths.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 17th, 2011 at 11:25 pm
@rabbit man ::
“Spiritual warrior” {the way I’m using it here} is James Ray’s sham phrase :: and sham ideology. Via Ray’s own lame and fake definitions :: James Shore is a spiritual warrior and James Ray is not. Three-for-three: thoughts :: feelings :: ACTIONS.
I’m making no defense of the crazy talk on the audio. Noting however that Shore was clearly reading that in an environ where you were expected to say something like that … and I have many unpublished reasons to believe his commitment to JAR :: and level of delusion :: were not equal to many other more fervent participators.
[Reply]
Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
@SD, Excellent response to @rabbit man about James Shore’s statement, which was obviously tailor-made for that group and that event. I too noticed that Mr. Shore used all of the expected eye-roll-inducing buzzwords and key phrases, and I’m sure that was partly to win the approval of JAR and partly to convince himself that he was willing to play “full-on.”
I think most of us have done something like this at one time or another: we’ve made statements that didn’t necessarily reflect our true feelings but that we knew others wanted to hear. It doesn’t mean we’re deluded, spiritually or otherwise; it may simply mean that we want approval and/or we want to “try on” the attitude we’re expressing and see if it really “fits.” We learn to do this from a very young age, to parrot the things that our teachers, our parents, and other authority figures want to hear.
And as we’ve also discussed here, people who participate in LGAT events, or for that matter just about any type of organization, learn pretty quickly to talk the talk in order to avoid being singled out in some embarrassing way by the group or its leaders. I sure did that when I participated in LGAT events years ago. To a certain extent I did it when I was in Eckankar (yes, really). I also did it years later when I was trying to become a corporate clone. And I did it in AA until the “recovery” mentality got to be too much for me. In all of those cases I was trying to “go along to get along,” but I was also, at least briefly, trying to truly immerse myself in the various systems in hopes that they would “work” for me.
But as you noted, @SD, that brief statement — that “crazy talk — at the Spiritual Warrior event did not and does not define James Shore. I say this not as one who knew James S. personally but who has read many observations from people who did.
[Reply]
rabbit man Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
@SD, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree. Before I respond, I want to thank you for the work you are doing, and the openness of your forum.
By your definition Shore was a spiritual warrior. My only point was that, from the perspective of any spiritual tradition I am aware of – and certainly the authentic Native American traditions Ray stole and desecrated – he was being misled, and prevented from being the spiritual warrior he might have been. I know many Native American elders and traditionalists of varying reputation, some of them quite well, and the real people who are holding our traditions will encourage humility (in themselves and others) every time and steer us away from all this talk of becoming an “enlightened master.” Ray’s victims were being led away from a spiritual path, not closer to “enlightenment.” If Shore was beginning to doubt Ray’s message and was only parroting it to “fit in” still does not qualify him as a “spiritual warrior” from my definition – which is that you’ve been following an authentic spiritual tradition for a long time and working very hard at it. Any poor soul who was involved in any way with Ray does not meet this definition. Of course, others can define “spirituality” how they like, and that’s fine. But my view does not take away from Shore’s value or worth as a person, or accuse him of stupidity or being otherwise to blame for his fate. It simply means that he was looking for something in a world with a lot of phony information, and was understandably unlucky enough to be led down a bad road by someone who was painting a pretty and completely false picture, for a profit. It happens to a lot of people, including some of us commenting here who have been likewise deluded in the past, but were simply lucky enough to get warned, or scared, or otherwise informed enough to avoid the wrong kinds of “teachers”, like the ones that often pop up in “Angel Valley” and similar places. Many others out there are still sucked in by this false “spirituality” promoted in marketing gimmicks like “the secret,” but are still lucky enough not to suffer the extreme fate that those people met in Ray’s death lodge. I feel this is a crucial point, because it’s not that any of us are any better or more spiritual than Shore (myself included) – just luckier. What’s really important to me is that we not authenticate the mumbo jumbo that passes for “spirituality” and which contributed directly to the deaths of Shore and the others, precisely because there are so many other phonies still out there doing a lot of harm.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 am
@rabbit man ::
I don’t think we do disagree. I totally agree that the unicorn message :: the fake magic :: and the gimmicky sham spirituality are a HUGE part of the problem … just as worthy of exposure as the individual perpetrators.
[Reply]
After reading the post, I am sickened by James Arthur Ray, and his pussy defense team.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Okay another comparison of Ray to Rader:http://www.weblo.com/celebrity/available/Dennis_Rader/363408/
Can you imagine Rader crying knowing the torture he had inflicted on those people,including children, over many years?!!! Sociopaths don’t cry out of remorse or compassion,only out of a selfish realization that they’re losing a previously unchallenged dominance of others. Oh yeah,Rader was also keen on depriving his victims of oxygen.
[Reply]
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
LOSER!! ::
-12
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
@Sandy ::
I question your understanding of the word “hear”.
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
@Sandy,
Considering that your first response to this trial was to slag off and insult all Canadians, I don’t believe you have the best critical thinking skills.
The medical examiners official cause of death is Heat Stroke (hyperthermia). As Dr. Armstrong testified on re-direct, if it was a toxin of some sort, then all participants would have felt sick and Dr. Armstrong herself would not have felt good after the event. Rather if you were paying attention to all testimony you would have observed that participants who were pretty close to the door did not suffer the symptoms. Participants in the back areas of the lodge which received no fresh air were the ones with the severe problems. The facts are consistent with heat stroke while they are not consistent with any kind of toxin.
Irrespective of that, Mr. Ray failed to stop the ceremony when he was told that people are not breathing. He said “we’ll deal with that in the next round” even though he was well aware that medical emergencies were occurring. Therefore Mr. Ray is guilty of reckless manslaughter.
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Sandy — Dr. Sandy Butterball Armstrong. That’s a cute alias you have, Dr. Armstrong. “Sandy”. Let’s use it in a sentence: I laid in the “Sandy” sweatlodge for all 8 rounds and didn’t have a problem—it was no big deal.
Did you give James a BJ on your way out of the Court room too?
[Reply]
For those whose desire to negate the presence of ‘Mind Control’ without first bothering to define it:
On Mind Control:
1. In 1951, the United States Central Intelligence Agency received Authorization to commence “Operation Artichoke” with the implicitly stated purpose of answering the question:
The results of that 26 year long study remain classified.
2. To date at least 14,000 known individuals are on record to have ‘involountraily’ participated in those experiments. $1.25 million dollars in restitution has been paid (in total) to 130 of those participants, the remaining 13,870 (even when presented with evidence) ardently deny anyone could have ever controlled their minds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
3. In 1975, President Gerald Ford publicly apologized for these Government funded Mind Control Experiments, then in October 1995 (simulcast with the OJ Simpson verdict ~ coincidence?), President Bill Clinton publicly and formally apologized to the Global Community for those unethical experiments… (google: “Clinton Apologizes for Mk-Ultra” hundreds of good sources available) (also cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dormouse for the now declassified Cheney-Rumsfeld government sanctioned and funded cover-up of the experiments)
4. The CIA KUBARK 1983 manual on “Human Resource Exploitation Training” (that’s actually the name of it!) was developed from these studies and includes the following as definitive forms of Mind Control:
5. “Control” Definition from CIA KUBARK 1983 manual on “Human Resource Exploitation Training” http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/CIA%20Human%20Res%20Exploit%20A1-G11.pdf
In this case, the defense is asking each one of the Witnesses to negate James Ray’s use of Mind Control without ever defining it.
I figure they’re reading this, {doesn’t everyone read Salty?}
and they need to understand that people, even in the face of the most hardcore and overt ‘text-book’ mind-control protocols will deny it ever happened to them for sake of principle alone.
But when confronted with empirical examples and concrete, agreed upon, governmental endorsed definitions – the presence of textbook Psychological Manipulation in this case is incontestable…
Re-read the Kubark, CIA Approved list of Mind-Control techniques and see how many you can remember from the trial thus far…
WINNER!! ::
+14
[Reply]
This is rather irksome. I missed earlier testimony, but the camera on CNN.com for the last 40 minutes or so hasn’t ever shown the witness. Stays only on James Ray, the judge, etc. Does anyone know why that is? Realy good witness, so far.
[Reply]
This is rather irksome. I missed earlier testimony, but the camera on CNN.com for the last 40 minutes or so hasn’t ever shown the witness. Stays only on James Ray, the judge, etc. Does anyone know why that is? Really good witness, so far.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
@scammed, Actually, every witness has the personal right to decide if they want to be “on camera”….obviously, this one decided not to be shown. However, I am glad they gave us the audio !!!
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
Thanks, Moxie. Wasn’t sure they did that. I’m glad of the audio, too. And finally a chance to see JAR react to uncomfortable statements. I never felt previously like the camera panned over to him at the times I most wanted to see his face–after some really incriminating remark. (Not that I’ve been able to watch a lot.)Nice to watch him squirm. And his lawyers—they’re a twitchy bunch today, aren’t they?
The judge is cracking me up with his long gazes at Li when he makes all these mostly ridiculous objections. Then,…. “overruled”. BAM! Love it.
Thanks again.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
@Moxie, actually the judge has been deciding who gets to be off camera… and he has denied other requests prior to this one.
When Ms. Polk raised this question early on with the judge (that some witnesses were asking to be off camera), he said that he would hold a separate hearing for each witness’s request. This witness is the only one he has allowed to be off camera so far, because she had really good reason for wanting to not be seen on camera. (She’s a friend of mine.)
I don’t mean to say this just to correct what you wrote. It’s just that I wouldn’t want anyone to get the impression that the other witnesses WANTED to be on camera. That could potentially make them look like they were seeking some kind of fame, and they weren’t, as far as I can tell. Some definitely didn’t want to be, and I would suspect the majority were in that camp, given the potentially embarrassing subject matter these victims are testifying about.
[Reply]
_cartman_ Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
@scammed,
duded…can you please point the way to any online live feed of the trial [[paid or otherwise doesn't matter]]…I searched everywhere and couldn’t find anything other then secondary “opinion” videos…or tiny snippets…
I thought the trial was only televised and not streamed online [[when I couldn't find it on trutv.com, until you said you were watching on cnn.com [[can't seem to find it there either, maybe my cambodian IP is excluding me from calling up content not available for my area]]….thanks
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 18th, 2011 at 8:06 pm
@_cartman_,
The trial is being streamed at live.cnn.com. I believe testimony starts up again on Tuesday.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 2:23 am
cartman–
what?? beat me to it. Yeah, it’s confusing. If you go to cnn.com, it doesn’t really point you in any way to the fact that you need to go to live.cnn.com. Now, why a mega-rich media corporation like that wouldn’t have figured out how to be a teensy bit more intuitive, I cannot say….
And what?? is right that it starts again on Tuesday, though I didn’t get why. They’ll have some arguments at 8:15 am Arizona time (MT?) before the jury comes in, but those are usually streamed as well and can be interesting to watch, at times.
oh–and I’m a dudette. :)
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
@scammed, this court usually only hears trials three days per week. Due to the length of this trial, they expanded that to four days a week. Thus the reason they take Mondays off.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 1:27 am
@Anonymous,
Cool, thanks. Good to know. Wow–with that schedule and list of witnesses, we should be having funsies for some time to come….:)
_cartman_ Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 6:43 pm
@what??, @scammed
thanks very much guys….
sorry dudette…I usually use “dude” and “guys” as gender neutral terms…I used to use “peeps” as my gender neutral term, but I was reminded of yellow marshmallow chicks…
[Reply]
what?? Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
@_cartman_, @scammed
Dudette as well. Also, if you’re not already following, SD provides most excellent tweet coverage @RayShouldPay.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
@scammed, several witnesses have requested to the judge to testify off camera, and this is the only witness who has been granted that request so far. (She’s a friend of mine.) I guess the judge agreed that she had a very good reason for being off camera.
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 1:39 am
@Anonymous,
I wondered about that. Thought maybe work issues or something. I figured the other witnesses couldn’t all be fame-hungry. Some of them must want to lay low. By the way, your friend was an admirable witness. Appreciated her testimony most of anyone yet, I think. Very articulate woman. Please thank her for me (unless that seems stupid) when you get a chance.
cartman,
Actually, my brother calls me dude all the time. I was just clarifying. :-) And thanks (not) for putting Peeps in my head. I’ve been studiously avoiding the Easter candy aisles in the grocery store, but you had to bring them up. Have you seen the new chocolate-covered Peeps? Lord, have mercy.
Sorry, everyone. I digress…
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 10:22 am
@scammed, my pleasure. :-) I will certainly pass that along. But I want to mention that I am NOT sharing any information with her about the trial itself or other witness testimony, as per the judge’s rules. She is wayyyy above average intelligence, as it seems many (all?) of JR’s followers were.
I feel he purposely targeted highly intelligent and successful people, some of which of course had to do with their earnings capacity. However, another reason may be that, contrary to what we may expect, research apparently has shown that the higher your intelligence, the MORE likely you are to succumb to brainwashing! That came as a huge surprise to me.
I wonder if the prosecution will bring this into testimony. But it really doesn’t matter if they do or not… what is becoming clear is that this is something that could happen to anyone, regardless of how smart you are.
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 11:11 am
@Anonymous, One thing I learned when I was researching cults years ago is the major cults specifically target college students; primarily freshmen and seniors. Freshmen because they’ve been ripped from their home environment and are feeling insecure and friendless. Seniors because they are starting to panic about going into the big, bad world. But college students in general because they are more likely to be smart and affluent. Let’s face it, the smarter you are the more likely you are to be dissatisfied with life and full of unanswerable questions. I know a big draw for me when I was drawn into the born-again thing was that I just wanted someone to make the complex seem simple and answerable. (I’ve since learned to love the questions. See Rilke.)
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 3:39 pm
@LaVaughn, thanks for the personal insight. And I think the other key is finding people who have a vulnerability that can be exploited. High achievers tend to also be ultra self-critical (I know, because I am one!). And they tend to always look for ways to better themselves, their lives, and their performance. I suspect high achievers often feel a sense of “something missing” from their life, thus their vulnerability when it comes to people who appear to be offering “the answer”.
BTW, I’ve been following your blog as well. Between you and Salty Droid, I’m not sure whose writing and observations I enjoy more!! (Oh and Tom McFeeley is wicked funny too – Kirby Brown’s cousin. Check out his article about the cow who ended up in the swimming pool…really.) But I am curious why you haven’t written about Ms. Mystery’s Friday testimony yet? At least all I could find was your article about Dr. Armstrong… did I miss it?
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 6:40 pm
@LaVaughn, now that I have read your latest blog post, I now know why you weren’t able to cover the Friday afternoon testimony…
http://celestialhealing.blogspot.com/2011/03/its-only-supermoon.html
Please know that New Jersey is always like that. Last time I drove to Newark to pick up a friend, I had no fewer than THREE road rage and/or near misses in a mere 1.5 hours. That is where road rage was invented. I will never drive in New Jersey again.
LaVaughn Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 12:55 am
@Anonymous, Actually, NJ was the easiest part of the trip. It usually is for us. (Newark area is always bad. I avoid that like the bloody plague.) Down south is much, much worse. The DC area is nightmarish. Always. But not like it was this past weekend. I’ve never seen anything like it and we’ve been driving that corridor for longer than I care to contemplate.
I absolutely agree with you on over-achievers. Dead on.
Can you post a link to Tom McFeeley’s blog? Somehow I haven’t stumbled on that one.
BTW, the Laurie Gennari post is now up. I LOVE her!
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 10:08 am
@LaVaughn, great article, thanks! And I love her too. :-)
Cow article #1:
http://blog.tommcfeeley.com/348
Cow article #2:
http://blog.tommcfeeley.com/359
Tom McFeeley blogs about all sorts of topics. Although I haven’t read many of the ones about his cousin Kirby Brown and the sweatlodge yet, his other posts are just hilarious. I have to be in the right frame of mind to read about the sweat lodge.
(I hope this doesn’t post twice… I’m getting errors saying “slow down, you’re posting too fast…”)
@SD
Question 1: What percentage of trials end in a plea bargain before the actual trail?
Question 2: Was JAR’s team offered a plea? If so, do you know what it was?
All this testimony makes JAR look horrible and {most importantly} the families have to watch their loved ones die all over again.
What it must be like to re-live this nightmare as a family member….so unfair.
[Reply]
I’ve watched at least 75% of the testimony on In Session (thanks to my DVR recorder!), and more on cnn.com/live and the one line of questioning I have not heard (perhaps it will be more appropriate later?) is regarding how James Ray was not in the same condition as those he tortured. That is, he got sleep when they were being sleep deprived; he was eating (from something I read elsewhere) regular food, including wine – not vegetarian; and of course, in the lodge, he was closest to the flap (where it was the coolest) and even stuck his head outside at one point to bark out instructions (and get some cool air?). Point being, he was in an entirely different condition (physically and mentally) than his flock of followers.
From everything I have read, this is typical of cult leaders: everything I say applies to others, but not to me. I listened to a good portion of “Harmonic Wealth” and actually quit listening when I concluded that James Ray is not at all centered and is desperately searching for true meaning in his own life.
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
didems Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 5:18 am
@Flip Side, From my personal observations …. so are ALL other personal development gurus.
[Reply]
I thought at trial today first that the defense scored some points with the cross examination of Dr. Armstrong, who may not have been a certified expert but because she is a doctor I feel the jury make take her testimony as credible. It was almost like she and the defense team were really driving home the point that she just hated being hot. (Remember she could only stay in her first sauna only a few minutes?) She managed to stay in Ray’s sweat event the entire time, but she was also close to the door and could probably get a little cool down between rounds. I think the defense forgot to ask about that.
The prosecution in redirect did a good job of rehabilitation. The last few questions scored for them.
The second witness today I felt really hit hard especially when she told of how she was trying to leave and even when the door was not completely closed Ray told her it was too late and to take a seat. Ouch. She was a pistol and I had a great time watching the defense table with Ray fidget and squirm. Li was very restless and seemingly nervous with all of his objections of which most were overruled!
Thank you Judge.
WINNER!! ::
+8
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 12:57 am
@Rubies,
Regarding Dr. Armstrong…..she was not 100% *truthful*…..she slipped around answers as she didn’t want to offend James Arthur Ray. For instance, James was at the sweatlodge door….then Dr. Armstrong…..then Laurie (who testified after the doctor). In this whole trial, people have mentioned how “someone” yelled out “we will deal with her in the next round”, which was regarding helping Kirby Brown (RIP). Dr. Armstrong heard those words but could not identify the person who said them….f=but Laurie, who testified after Dr. Armstrong, openly said, “it was the voice of James Ray”. Laurie was further away from James than Dr. Armstrong…..Dr. Armstrong was in-between Laurie and James Ray…..get the picture???
Also, when this Tragedy first happened, and the Police, Medical Personnel, EMT’s, Paramedic’s, etc. showed up at the site after 911 was called, and there were no “official interviews” being done at this time because the place was total chaos, like a Mash Unit, says other participants, Dr. Armstrong made it look like she was “the Medical Doctor for the event” because she didn’t want to throw James Ray under the bus for having nobody hired as medical personnel for the event….and Dr. Armstrong somehow forgot to mention that she was a participant, and not a paid Medical Emergency Personnel hired by JRI for the event. That information came out later. It just slipped her mind, I guesss.
She also made it sound, to the media at that time, that James was helping the sick people all around as he was “hunting down an AED Unit”….when in actuality, she asked him for one and he went to his cabin to have dinner in his underwear. He helped NO ONE. Guess that slipped her mind too.
So, you can see I trust nothing she says. I watched her testimony very closely and I think she perjured herself and the only good she did was explain the true actual impact that the heat, and the conditions of the sweatlodge, has on the body — and that does give some very good info to the prosecution’s side of this case……but other than that, she’s useless (IMHO).
And in closing, I don’t buy this “act” of hers that the sweatlodge was “just fine” and she had no problems going the whole 8 rounds…..my fat ass couldn’t bear those conditions, and she’s a lot bigger than I am !!! Who’s she kidding —– Geeeeeesh !
Thanks for listening, friends !
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
Rubies Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 2:19 am
@Moxie, Oh I’m not giving a pass to Dr. Armstrong at all. I felt she was trying to side with Ray throughout her testimony, however my point was that she will come off to the jury as reasonable simply because she is a doctor. We have a trend in this country of trusting what a doctor says despite our better judgement. I was simply listening to her testimony and keeping the jury in mind. She was also a witness for the prosecution and it might have weight, so to speak, as far as credibility is concerned.
I didn’t catch her perjury perhaps you can say more about that.
And uh…RAY WENT TO HIS CABIN TO HAVE DINNER WITH ALL THAT CAOS GOING ON!!????
Just when I thought Ray could sink no lower in my estimation of his behavior in all of this…you had to tell me that. I can’t believe him.
I think it telling that he forgot to take his case full of injectable steroids and herpes medicine in his rush to get of of Dodge.
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 8:31 am
@Rubies, @Moxie
I just want to point out that it was an excellent strategic decision to put on Ms. Armstrong when they did. She clearly is still a bit infatuated with Mr. Ray. So the Prosecution has a choice. They could leave her off their witness list but then the Defense would have an opportunity to call Armstrong as a witness at a much later date. By calling Armstrong as a Prosecution witness (by subpoena) this is what the Prosecution achieved:
Armstrong’s testimony was buried in the middle of a week that began with Beverley Bunn and ended with the mysterious “Gennari”. By ending the day the way they did, no one on the jury is going to remember Armstrong’s weak testimony because the week ended with such a powerful witness who obviously was more aware during the sweat lodge than Ms. Armstrong. Because of the way our memory works neurologically the jury’s minds are now filled with the testimony of ‘Gennari’ and how annoyed Mr. Luis Lie was during the 15 minutes of cross-examine. It was unprecedented for Mr. Luis Lie to begin his cross-examine with badgering the witness about his many objections during direct.
I saw some comments on twitter questioning the wisdom of the Prosecution calling Ms. Armstrong but it was really a great strategic move. Now the defense cannot call Ms. Armstrong as a witness and Ms. Armstrong’s bizarrely inadequate testimony has been completely overshadowed. Plus, it was great job for Ms. Polk to end direct and force the Defense to immediately begin cross when they were clearly annoyed but only had 15-20 minutes (to prevent them getting into a rhythm or getting information from their home office in LA).
‘Gennari’ really put the nail in Mr. Ray’s coffin IMO. Now we have multiple witnesses confirming that Mr. Ray specifically ignored the pleas for help with Kirby not breathing, multiple witnesses to Mr. Ray denying Liz Neuman the help she deserved “Liz knows what she is doing” and a further incident of Mr. Ray denying someone access to leave the tent “You’re too late, the next round has begun, find a seat”. And another direct testimony to the fact that certain areas of this Endurance Tent were much hotter than other areas. In addition, more testimony that many people being dragged out unconscious and people throwing up (never, ever a good sign in a super-heated environment unlike what Mr. Ray said before the lodge).
Really this is why the defense absolutely has to cling to their bankrupt theory of “poisoning” (despite the medical evidence that is going to lay that poor theory to rest once and for all) because at this point Ray is definitely guilty of Reckless Manslaughter.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 10:07 pm
@Chilon~Ephor,
I agree with the points you make, especially about Laurie Genneri…she was “Bravo” for the Prosecution’s side so far. The only good Dr. Armstrong (IMHO) did was she confirmed and explained what happens to the body in such extreme heat, and she said her asssessment of one of the participants was pulmonary edema. That will stick in the Jury’s mind. Other than that, to me she was fake, phony, slip-sliding around answers, useless and flirting with James the whole way.
That’s Funny because it’s well known that James hates fat people and preaches to death about the “Physical Pillar” and taking care of yourself, and he outright condemns obesity….maybe she skipped that chapter (Harmonic Wealth).
I am sorry to inform her that all she’s gonna get out of James is to stand next to him in a photo op….and then they will look like the number TEN. He’ll have no other use for her.
[Reply]
Rubies Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 2:32 am
@Moxie,
Oh yeah before I forget, one thing I really hope the jury heard about Dr. Armstrong’s testimony; when she talked about how James when he asked if there was any more that can be done…She said find an AED unit (or words to that effect). She then said “He turned and WALKED to find one.
Who WALKS to find something like that in a real emergency!!!!! Anybody who cares RUNS!
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 6:33 am
@Moxie, I have a theory that Dr Armstrong’s body fat actually helped rather than hindered. We are used to seeing fat people suffer when exerting themselves eg. Biggest Loser. In this case though all she had to do was sit there and sweat. Fat holds water so she probably lost plenty of fluid without becoming overly de-hydrated. and fat may also have provided insulation, protecting her vital organs from cooking off. Any medical people out there who can develop thisfurther?
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 10:10 am
@, I have another theory. She was wearing a Nike Dri-weave t-shirt. They wick moisture away from the body. After listening to her testimony on heat stroke and researching it a little myself, my guess is that the moisture build-up in the sweat lodge is key to understanding why people died.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
@, That’s a very interesting point of view….you never know!
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 6:06 pm
@Moxie, I’m increasingly convinced the shirt was a major factor. I had a chat with my husband about it this afternoon. He’s the athlete, not I. He has several of those moisture-wicking, Under Armour-type shirts and he says they make a big difference in your body temp because they really pull the moisture off your skin. I wouldn’t underestimate the difference that would make in that environment.
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 9:56 pm
@LaVaughn, Like I said, it could be…but remember it was estimated that the tent was like 120 degrees, with very little room to move around…..whatever she did, it got her thru it. That’s alll that matters.
This is a second hand story to you all but I want to share it.
I have a friend who is close with native elder who happens to live in the Sedona area. Of course when he had heard of the tragedy he felt compelled to do something and followed Ray to his very next seminar in California. At some point during the presentation it was opened up for questions. The elder stood up and asked Ray who his teachers were for the sweat lodge ceremony. He managed to ask this same question a few times before a phalanx of 6 men escorted him out. How hard would it have been for Ray to name a few names and talk a little about his training that he claimed he had done. Ray didn’t answer because he couldn’t answer.
I was taught that whenever I do a ceremony I have to talk about who trained me, when I received the teachings and where. I have a a hard time with that because in this society how you present yourself in that way seems like it’s bragging but it’s really about reciting the education and the authority to do the ceremony. If the facilitator of any ceremony doesn’t do this then it becomes the right of anyone to challenge and ask about it. If Ray was properly trained then he would have done that but did not.
WINNER!! ::
+17
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 6:44 am
@Rubies. I attended SPW 03, the first JAR sweat lodge. H told us then that he had tried to find someone to facilitate the sweat lodge for him. However when he told them how many rounds he wanted to do, they refused to help him saying “white people can’t do that” to which he responded something like “MY white people can” and decided to run it himself. I don’t remember him saying he was “trained” by anyone only that he had done them many times and knew what to do. He certainly gave the impression no matter what we were doing that he was experienced, knowledgeable and definitely in charge. You heard the witnesses, he built up their trust and gained their confidence by associating himself through the use of visual imagery (powerpoint slide show-pictures of himself with Tony Robbins, native people, between the paws of the Sphinx) and careful use of language “my native american friend”. Smoke and mirrors.
WINNER!! ::
+12
[Reply]
Rubies Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 10:40 am
@,
Wow!
You were in the first JAR sweat event? Can you tell me more about that? Was that the one with 12 rounds? How many rocks?
“MY white people can” = such arrogance. It’s no wonder why the natives are making points by saying that their sacred ceremonies are being exploited and corrupted. Here’s more proof.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 19th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
@Rubies, “no independent recollection” LOL of how many rounds or stones BUT we had 7 pouches so there would have been seven rounds and possibly an 8th. It was hot but steam room hot, not unbearable. Two people left when they felt they needed to, one of them returned later. There was no hassle at all about leaving it was not an endurance contest. There was chanting and prayers and we were invited to offer up our own prayers not just parrot the leader. The group was MUCH smaller.
It was at night and it was quite cold outside low 40s?. The hose was used to clean off the mud from the sweat not to cool down. We hosed and toweled off as best we could because we had to change our clothes on the spot to go directly on the vision quest. We stayed at Enchantment that year as Angel Valley did not have much in the way of accomodations at that time and I recall JAR saying “it’s kind grim”. So we had to bring all our gear, clothing, sleeping bag with us to AV for the SL.
One JRI staffer stayed at Angel Valley while we were there, she slept in one of the teepees. It
was freezing in the 30s at night while we were out there. No food. We were allowed to take water. JAR and the 2 staffers – there was No Dream Team since it was the first time for the event – came by to check on us and refill water jugs as needed once during the quest. It was a different time. Before “The Secret”, Larry King and Oprah.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Mr. Li was at it again Friday pm with his smarmy faux chumminess with the unseen witness. Loved her characterizations of the atmosphere at the “retreat.” When I heard her direct I thought, oh no, the defense is going to send in Kelly in attack mode for the cross. Instead it was Li trying to sound like just a regular guy who wouldn’t dream of being intimidating or making anyone uncomfortable. Perhaps lessons learned from the Beverly Bunn assault. I can only hope the jury can see through all the defense posturing.
Does anyone know the composition of the jury? I would think anyone who lives around Sedona would be familiar with the new age tourists and their odd practices and might have a grip on JRI-type groups.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 6:52 am
@coldweathergal, I heard all white. Median age was about 60. Even one lady over 80 there. Very conservative community. JAR is screwed.
[Reply]
Interesting comments. It’s my opinion Dr. Armstrong was more interested in serving her own ego, and protecting her medical license. It would simply not look good for her to appear as a, “medical consultant,” and admit any failure in decision making.
As to her experience in the sweat lodge, she covered her face with her Nike top and mentioned several times she was face down in the dirt. Dr. Armstrong was in self protect position.
Li’s frustration is evident. Slamming his cup when he was overruled, prosecution cross of Dr. Armstrong and the newest witness, “Genare.”
[Reply]
I just listened to the clip of James Shore. What wisdom and purpose he had. What unspeakable value those words have to his family and friends! He was a man of the utmost integrity. (Tears falling) I wonder, Mr. Droid, if you can edit the very end of the clip?? It would be nice to hear James Shore without the sound of JAR’s voice at the end.
WINNER!! ::
+7
[Reply]
@PJ LeeKwan Wannabe
Yawn, try again dick brain. The Death Ray trolls are out in force this weekend.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 20th, 2011 at 6:21 pm
@Yakaru ::
Yeah … I’m not going to put with that kind of crap on this thread. I’ve already deleted about 15 comments from that freak bag
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 1:57 am
@SD,
Good, I was hoping that would just get deleted.
[Reply]
Finally catching up with the trial and I see that @jamesaray’s website is home to the defense. Live trial link, some ramblings, and a third person blog post laying out the defense that there was some nasty poison in the hut. I am not an attorney or anything, but how does the fact that there might have been some poison on the rocks, or in the hut save his ass? I mean, wouldn’t it be just as bad to make people stay in a hut and die of poisoning as it is to force them to stay in and die of heat explosions? People throwing up and saying they can’t breathe doesn’t seem to be something you sort of diagnose on the spot. “Oh, Master James, this one appears to be poisoned”. Master James replies, “that can’t be, those Hamilton’s assured me, no poison in the hut. So just let them continue not breathing — it’s purging.”
But I did laugh out loud at the comment from someone saying that the Hamilton’s bribed the State of Arizona prosecution to make it Ray’s fault.
Also, there is more to laugh at over at Rayland. Clicking on “free resources” takes you to a squeeze page selling mega bundles of James Ray memorabilia. I warn you though, it is a hard squeeze to evade with it’s popup “stop” warnings. Takes a bit to leave. And then if you want to see the Harmonic Wealth (balance is bogus) movie, the streaming account is disabled. I guess they haven’t been selling those mega bonus packs.
Anyhow, I think I will stick here for the commentary on the scumbags trial.
WINNER!! ::
+11
[Reply]
@ moxie,
You write:
Like I said, it could be…but remember it was estimated that the tent was like 120 degrees, with very little room to move around…..whatever she did, it got her thru it. That’s alll that matters.
Actually no. I’m speaking to a broader point. I realize I wasn’t explicit in that comment. I did post on this here.
The reason I think what Armstrong’s shirt did or did not do in that sweat lodge speaks to the defense’s contention that dehydration is a necessary cause of heat stroke. It’s not. The body’s ability to cool itself is the issue. The body cools itself, in large part, through the evaporation of perspiration. In the dense moisture of that sweat lodge, people were sweating but the sweat wasn’t evaporating. That’s a recipe for heat related illness and hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, becomes a moot point. Armstrong’s sweat was being wicked away with a shirt designed to do that. What few people have noticed in their criticism of Armstrong’s sycophancy is that she undermined a major component of the defense strategy: poisoning vs. heat stroke. She pulled the legs off that theory, probably without even realizing it. I just hope the prosecution realized the importance of what she said.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 7:48 am
@LaVaughn, @moxie, there was an earlier post somewhere from a sauna expert where they did some calculations on the volume of breathable air in the lodge, number of people breathing, carbon dioxide buildup and how the steam from the rocks would have displaced the air etc. So again speaking to the humidity, not only would it impact the body’s ability to cooldown via sweat there was just not enough air to breathe. In that case hypoxia, oxygen starvation was also a factor and proximity to the air from the open flap would also make a huge difference in chances for survival.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 9:18 am
In case you missed it earlier,
I found the link to the post by the saunascape people. http://saunascape.com/2011/03/inside-a-james-ray-sweat-lodge-unsafe-at-any-temperature/
[Reply]
LaVaughn Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 10:53 am
@, Thank-you.Will post.
[Reply]
Chilon~Ephor Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 2:57 pm
@LaVaughn,
LaVaughn,
This is an excellent point and a brilliant observation on your part. You are 100% correct about the hydration issue as I have researched this myself. The defense is seemingly implying (falsely) that de-hydration is an integral component of de-hydration. It is not as you have keenly pointed out. De-hydration can (of course) sometimes result in heat exhaustion or heat stroke but de-hydration is absolutely not a necessary or sufficient condition for heat stroke. The defense is obfuscating the truth in implying that de-hydration is so key to heat stroke. It is not. Everyone in the military that has gone through basics of survival in extreme environments knows this. Every fireman I have talked to knows this.
Thank you for your observations and continued insight.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 28th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
@Chilon~Ephor, @LaVaughn, @Moxie and in Linda A. we have a second obese participant who survived! Linda A. appears to carry even more excess weight than Dr. Armstrong and while Linda A. did lose consciousness and had to be dragged out, she did not report any long term difficulties as many of the other, “fitter” witnesses have done. So what is up with that? Linda A. was wearing some kind of summer dress – not “technical” clothing. I am convinced that excess body fat provided life-saving insulation – call it the “Sweat Lodge Paradox”. JAR always felt that “warriors” needed to be fit and trim, being overweight was a sign of weakness of character and resolve – plus it looked bad in the slide shows.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 28th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@Anonymous ::
I think there is no question that extra weight would generally tend to help you in this situation.
But there are two kinds of heat to consider.
One :: is the temperature … constant :: stifling … and always rising as the event moves forward. The oven set to bake.
Two :: is the heat that radiates from the pit in searing hot waves. These waves are far hotter than surrounding temperatures … enough to burn your skin if you’re too close. The oven set to broil.
Body weight is an especially great protection against number two.
The two safest positions in the lodge were Child’s Pose head away from the pit :: like Liz explained but failed to do :: or back-flat-knees-up like Laura Tucker was. In both of those positions the core of your body {especially your legs and ass} are basically blocking out 100% of the heat waves from your brain cage.
Unfortunately for Linda :: she didn’t have room to lie down … and spent the whole lodge sitting up … head exposed to both bake and broil.
I’ll bet if you programmed all the factors into a computer agent model and ran 1 million simulations of the sweat lodge … Linda A. would die 95% of the time.
[Reply]
I just read on signonsandiego.com that Josh and Megan Fredrickson have both been given immunity and that Josh will testify against James Ray.
Can anyone verify this?
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 9:53 am
@Hippo, Yes they were both given immunity months ago. Yes Josh is on the current witness list. Many are of the opinion (ref. The droid and posts on same) that Megan has jeopardized her immunity status by lying in her statements to police. stay tuned.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 21st, 2011 at 12:39 pm
@Hippo,
I think it depends on what is meant by testify “against”. Josh has been called by the prosecution (and I understand is expected to be next up tomorrow). Whether he testifies “against” James is a different kettle of fish entirely. He said nothing of note in his immunity interview, and I doubt any of that will change.
Megan was on the defense list, along with Kristina Bivins, but both have since been dropped. I’m disappointed that MF seems to be off the hook again, but I guess it says something too if the defense doesn’t trust itself enough to call JAR’s two biggest loudmouth hysterical blabbering propagandists.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 12:10 am
@Yakaru,
I understand that Megan was dropped because of her credibility issues.
I don’t know what they’re going to ask Josh. If he tells the truth, then I assume he’s testifying against Ray. If he hedges and takes the Fifth, that doesn’t make sense. They’ve given him immunity, so he can’t incriminate himself.
[Reply]
Yakaru Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 2:54 am
@Hippo,
Thanks for the info, Hippo. Interesting that even Death Ray’s lawyers recognized MF’s credibility issues.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:46 am
Just to clear this up :: again :: Megan and Josh don’t have immunity. They had immunity as to their answers on that day … that is all … that we know of …
I’m really hoping J-Fred is about to come clean.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:45 am
@SD, Can’t wait! Thanks for clearing up the immunity thing and for everything else you do
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:24 am
@SD,
Thanks for the info, Mr. Salty. So the article on signonsandiego.com is wrong?
Then I revise my opinion. Josh probably will just take the Fifth then.
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:51 pm
@Hippo ::
I don’t think they are wrong so much as a little confused. CBS ran a story with a stupid wrong headline right after the immunity interview transcripts got released …
“James Arthur Ray Employees Rat Out Self-Help Guru, Get Immunity from Sweat Lodge Deaths”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6186963-504083.html
… that got echoed all over the web.
[Reply]
Terri …
It’s my understanding the defense will continue their attempt to hammer the prosecution in two ways. First, signing of the liability waver and choice. Second, in speculating there is, “hut poison.” The liability, “supposedly,” would be with Angel Valley Retreat as opposed to JAR.
Currently there are civil suits against both JAR and AVR.
As to Josh Fredrickson’s testimony, there is an advantage to the prosecution securing this witness. They lead in direct and re-cross. They were certainly the winner’s with Dr Jean Armstrong’s testimony, who may well have been considered initially on the side of the defense.
Kudos to Sheila Polk, prosecuting attorney, retains decorum, and stays with the truth.
WINNER!! ::
+10
[Reply]
Hippo Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 pm
@Bethann,
Well, it seems to me that the prosecution wins either way with Josh. If he tells the truth, it’s going to be devastating for the defense. If he pretends he can’t remember anything, it’s going to look terrible and be a blow to the defense.
Of course, there is probably some brilliant legal strategy that I can’t figure out, since I’m not a lawyer.
So I’ll just get some popcorn and wait.
[Reply]
Something kind of bothered me over the weekend, on Friday I posted a little bit about the Definitive forms of Mind control based on the CIA manual called “Human Resource Exploitation Training”… http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/CIA%20Human%20Res%20Exploit%20A1-G11.pdf
What bothered me was this: The Spiritual Warrior retreat seems to incorporate nearly all of the techniques, not just some of them, nearly all of them…
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #1: Manipulate the subject’s environment to create unpleasant or intolerable situations…
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Make subjects sleep on ground outdoors without sleeping bags or tents, shave their heads, deprive them of food and water.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #2: Deprivation of sleep and food
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Week long deprivation of food and sleep, modify diets to extreme low calorie low protein, enforce motto: “Sleep steals oppurtunity” prevent subjects from extended duration sleeping through retreat.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #3: Force subject to maintain rigid positions such as standing at attention for long periods…
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Book game forces subjects to stand rigid for extended periods of time, samurai game forces subjects to lay immobile for extended periods of time, Subjects describe these two experiences as ‘excruciatingly uncomfortable’ even being forced to swallow their own vomit in discomfort.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #4: Subjects should be held incommunicado
JRI Spiritual Warrior: During games and vision quests, subjects faced severe isolation and were permitted no communication with each other of any kind.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #5: Subjects should be deprived of any kind of normal routine in eating and sleeping…
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Irregular daily activities prevent any form of routine during retreat, so much so that even the staff would have to briefed on the day’s activities the night before or morning of.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #6: Room should be windowless, soundproof, and dark…
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Sweat lodge ceremony was held in a Windowless, sound muffling, near pitch black room.
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #7: Prolonged constraint, prolonged exertion
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Subjects forced to maintain rigid immobility for extended periods during games, with mandatory daily physical training which James described as ‘Challenging’
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #8: Extremes of heat and cold
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Prolonged use of extreme temperature exposure
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #9: Disrupt existing routines
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Mr. Ray informed participants that all their patterns and habits would be disrupted so they could ‘emerge from the event a new person’
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #11: Solitary confinement
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Vision Quest isolation incorporated with a sense of ‘severe isolation and potential danger from wildlife’
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #12: Threats of pain
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Audio from event reveals that Mr. Ray repeatedly mentions the presence of painful psychical discomfort, with such vivid descriptions including, “You will feel like your skin is boiling off” other such examples are abundant
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #13: Deprivation of sensory stimuli
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Vision Quest, extended meditations, sleep deprivation, holotropic breathing, and duration of retreat all incorporated the aspect of ‘limited external stimulus’
CIA Human Resource Exploitation Technique #14: Hypnosis…
JRI Spiritual Warrior: Twice Daily ‘guided meditations and visualizations’ lead by even facilitator James Ray…
How can such perfect overlap of techniques be a coincidence?
14 specific techniques, done one after another in rapid succession culminating in a mental fatigue and susceptibility capable of allowing people to ‘make the choice’ to cook themselves to death…
At the beginning of this trial, I thought James was negligent, that he made a few careless, arrogant, and ill-informed mistakes that cost these people their lives. But now I’m starting to see things differently, I now believe that he studied and then deliberately used powerful, textbook psychological manipulation techniques to create dependency and trust.
Over 20 people in that lodge allowed themselves to disregard every message their body was sending them, to point of serious injury, hospitalization, or death.
The defense is arguing ‘Personal Choice’, but over 20 people exercised their choice to place trust over instinct. Their trust that James Ray would as he said, “Ask them to do things they wouldn’t normally do in the safety of the controlled situation he had created for them.”
Life threatening negligence is a criminal offense, but in this case, that arrogant negligence was preceded by the deliberate garnering of unwarranted trust through immoral, unethical, and manipulative means… These techniques are not criminal, and they may be used to ‘empower’ a subject, but as Mr. Ray used them (willfully or negligently), they are definitively ASPD (psychopathic or sociopathic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder.
End Note: Sorry for the long post (again), but I believe that many of us reading this are victims of this tragedy, and the knowledge of how elaborate and deliberate the manipulation was, will be important as we forgive ourselves and place blame where blame is due.
Double End Note: “It is the last recourse of the psychopath to shout, ‘STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM, YOU NEED TO LET GO OF THAT VICTIM MINDSET. No one here is trying to take advantage of you!’ But sometimes, the victims are as real as the criminals…”
WINNER!! ::
+27
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:37 am
@Injun Samurai ::
Great points.
He’s just applying a formula … what turns out to be a very simple formula. Part of what makes it so devastatingly effective is that we are in cultural denial about the existence of the problem.
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:39 am
@SD,
Cultural Denial… That’s exactly what I was getting at…
The Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) is fundamentally the villain of this trial… James Ray is just its spokesperson.
In “The Long-Con Handbook” the author states:
For so many of us, we’re so busy believing that we’re the ones who are too intelligent to be taken in that we don’t even realize we’re the… (gtg bbl)
WINNER!! ::
+15
[Reply]
scammed Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 10:17 am
@Injun Samurai,
So true, so true. I just hope these are points the prosecution makes at some point in the trial because you just know most of that jury is sitting there thinking that even if they blame James Ray for what happened, that they still think the attendees were stupid or gullible or hapless or ridiculous or (insert disparaging adjective here). No one more contemptuous than the one who is certain they’ve never been conned or scammed and never could be.
Just listening to the folks on TruTV last week (when I could watch), they and the callers acted as if they couldn’t possibly see themselves ever being put in such a position. Half of the callers sounded to me like those folks that send most of their paychecks to those really authentic, non-scamming preachers on TV, but I’m sure they’re all way too smart to ever get taken in by any con men.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
Injun Samurai Reply:
March 24th, 2011 at 6:43 am
@scammed, thanks for acknowledging my comment…
The thing with people that regarding the attendees as stupid or gullible is the brutal irony of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Confidence and intelligence makes the people who believe this couldn’t possibly happen to them the most vulnerable to all these scams. That’s the nightmare of Dunning-Kruger and the studies reveal it’s pandemic in America…
In the end, it helps to ask: “WWSID?” (What Would Steve Irwin Do?)
De-obliquification: Outside of popular media Steve Irwin was genuinely respected as one of the most skilled animal handlers in the world, but even the most competent are, without question – vulnerable.
George W. Bush (the King of Dunning-Kruger) once described it like this: “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on… No wait, you don’t fool me once mother fucker, I’ll fuck you up if you fuck with me…”
Too bad this trial’s not in Texas, there the Dunning-Kruger effect would insure James gets what he’s earned…
[Reply]
anonymous Reply:
March 24th, 2011 at 12:38 am
@Injun Samurai, It is important that this trial exposes and addresses some very serious manipulation techniques used by these self help, self appointed gurus. Funny how the secret movie exposed to the world the FRAUDS of today and what an interesting bunch they are. From wizardry to the most stupid of them all, finding carparks. Its been proven that you only have to sit and wait a maximum of 6 minutes for a carpark in any given shopping centre in any given time of day. http://www.spaceout.com.au/blog/parking-space/find-a-carpark-in-minutes-this-christmas. Incidentally that was the same tv station that exposed aussie secret fraud Schirmer too so I guess its like one two slap on you Schirmer. These people are just rehashing other peoples work to make a quick buck. Now they pay for their stupidity and greed. Theres sure to be some science out there somewhere that explains people like JR and why they feel the need to manipulate other people to fund their own lifestyles.
[Reply]
[...] you closet Secret fans out there are wondering what the sweat lodge reference was referring to… http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray-trial-updates/ __________________ "Don't bunt. Aim out of the ballpark." – David [...]
Anyone know where one can watch live streaming for the rest of the week? CNN will be covering the Anthony hearing instead. Thanks for your assistance!
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 11:01 am
@Karuuna, try Live.cnn.com — choose “Arizona Sweatlodge Trial”…..it’s on now.
[Reply]
Karuuna Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 12:44 pm
@Moxie, Thanks. I am watching it there today, but as I understand it, Wed/Thur/Fri they will be streaming Casey Anthony hearings instead. So that’s why I wondered if there would be an alternate place to view it?
[Reply]
Moxie Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 1:37 pm
@Karuuna, WOW, I hadn’t heard that! The only other place I know of is on “In Session” on TruTV…but they only carry part of the trial — it cuts off pretty much at the lunch break 2:00CST. Then you have to flip to HLN and they cut to the trial, but then they inject their commentary every 90 seconds so it’s like watching “Extra” or one of those Hollywood shows rather than a real trial—they hype it up with their talk.
I will have to research this for sure! I can’t miss a minute of this Trial — I am addicted !!! :-)
[Reply]
Karuuna Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 1:55 pm
@Moxie, me too! Typically when TruTV covers the Anthony trial, that’s what CNN Live broadcast as well, since TruTV is a subsidiary of CNN. That’s why I think there will be no Sweat Lodge coverage on CNN for the next three days when Tru TV has promised to bring us gavel-to-gavel coverage on Anthony.
HLN hasn’t been covering the trial here, I don’t think. I listen to them online (via XM/Sirius) and haven’t heard any coverage.
[Reply]
Following the trial on CNN Live this morning.
The defense is relentless on use of the word, “force.” The correct wording would be, “psychological pressure.”
It’s my opinion, and I have only seen most of the testimony of the last four witnesses, (Bunn, Ray, Caci, Gennari), they have been severely traumatized, therefore, confused at times on recall of events. All four display symptoms of depression ranging from moderate to clinical.
JAR, head posed upward, arrogant demeanor, does not appear to be the super salesman, telemarketer of the past. His elderly parents sitting directly behind him appear to be his only supporters.
WINNER!! ::
+9
[Reply]
SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:25 am
@Bethann ::
I think the spray on tan his moms gots should count as its own person.
[Reply]
*pops up from behind couch* You guys are all so freaking awesome. *settles in* *passes around popcorn*
[Reply]
Bethann Reply:
March 22nd, 2011 at 5:55 pm
@Cassandra,
I’ll take the popcorn, and provide the cokes. Anyone know if UStream is carrying the trial, if it is off In Session?
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Because all that is seen during Gennari’s time on the stand is the defense, I find the body language of that table telling with all those fingers crossing all those lips. It almost seems more pronounced and even coordinated. IT could be one of Ray’s (I can just imagine) teachings on subliminal communication- FTW!
Li seemed to hit Gennari hard over her *shaken to the core* testimony today in contrast to her almost light-hearted tone in the interview with the detective. That coupled with the composition written by her lawyer for her civil suit and the fact she has something to gain monetarily over Ray’s conviction in criminal court muddied her direct testimony IMHO until the prosecution had a chance to rehabilitate.
The fact that she didn’t put a signature on her civil suit leads me to think it has not yet been filed in the court in official capacity but was some sort of notice to file… IDK I’m no ‘Litigation Warrior’ fo sho.
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Listening to the trial really cuts into my time for writing about the trial :: but I will be catching up. Sorry.
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scammed Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:36 am
Has anyone figured out where to watch today if it’s not on CNN Live or Tru Tv?
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Moxie Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:41 am
@scammed, CNN has it on the schedule for today, listed on their website, so they will be carrying it. I can’t imagine them starting it like they have then just “stopping” it…..there are many other things they can skip rather than this ! >>>>> http://www.live.cnn.com
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Karuuna Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:57 am
Won’t be on CNN till this afternoon. This morning they are carrying the Anthony hearings.
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scammed Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 10:27 am
@Karuuna,
It’s on now. Thanks all.
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Hi Droid,
Thank you so much for staying on top of this and updating the trial. I found your page via Cassandra Yorgey.
Would it be possible to place some anchors at the top of the page dropping down to updated content? The length of the post and also the comments make navigating around a marathon.
Thanks again for your work on this. Here’s hoping Ray goes down.
WINNER!! ::
+11
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SD Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:43 pm
@Josh ::
Yeah I’ll do something like that. Ctrl-F or Command-F is how I like to navigate around though … just a tip.
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Hello all. Love this sight. Salty, Iv’e read about everything on here about Jimmy “jones” Ray, and I’ve got to say you are to be commended! Great job. I never realized the tendrils of malicious manipulation ran so deep. Just watched Ms. Martins testimony on cnn. She’s doing a great job. I bet Jimmy jones feels like he’s cookin in a big pot of goats head soup about now. In one close-up he looked like he was going to implode.(he’he}. Thanks. Later.
WINNER!! ::
+7
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Flip Side Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
@machineageart, Watching Ms. Martin’s compelling testimony, I must conclude that it is probably a miracle that only three people died in the torture chamber (er, sweat lodge).
While Mr. Ray was pirouetting out of the tent, walking (not crawling or being dragged out like those he tortured) to the shaded area to sit …and enjoy the chaos he had created from a safe distance where he would not need to get his hands dirty, true heroes like Ms. Martin and Jennifer Haley were literally saving lives. God bless these women and their heroic acts in the midst of this carnage.
If nothing else, Mr. Ray has been shown for the insensitive, callous coward that he truly is.
WINNER!! ::
+14
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O…M…G!! Did everyone see Ms. Martin rip lawyer dude’s balls off, do a happy dance all over them and hand them back to him with a smile????
Melinda Martin is a rockstar! Lord, this is sooooooooooooo satisfying!! I already loved her testimony for the prosecution, but the way she is standing up to the defense is AWESOME! I’m gonna go do a happy dance myself during the break.
WINNER!! ::
+13
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Anonymous Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 6:20 pm
@scammed, I loved when Melinda responded to a question to Kelly, “You’re exaggerating.” lol!!
Yes, she rocks. :-)
It amazes me that later, Kelly said something to the effect of, “Wouldn’t you agree that when my client is facing a homicide charge, there is no place for sarcasm with the jury?” That, after HIS voice was dripping with sarcasm in about 80% of his questions!!
Pot, meet kettle.
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Break during cross with Magen Martin. She is dynamite in a skirt! she has Keely soooo pissed off he’s grasping for anything. Megan your my new hero. Kelly; Ms. Martin are having trouble understanding these questions.
Megan; Yes…I’am. Boom! I Love it.
Flip side: It is a wonder there were not more fatalities. I think there were others who were very close. So sad.
I just hope the jury can see the big picture here. All the defense is trying to do is make it all black or white, yes or no, is that correct, the truth lies in the ambiguity of yes or no. The truth lies in the grey area. And defense must avoid the truth at all costs. Separate the black and white to absolutes and then you can distort the truth. Gee that sounds familiar dosen’t it? Later
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scammed. You are so right. Kelly is out of his league with that Gal! He should stick to personal injury claims and insurance fraud.She had him so jacked, you could see the veins raise on the back of his neck. And his suits to tight.And that is one severe hair-cut he was sportin… Hope the gave him novacane. Kelly; What about my hair? Is this shaved? Melinda;it could be. I love it. She is definitely NOT harmonic.
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Melinda FTW!
She made Mr. Kelly look like a mean :: ugly :: old moron.
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Melinda is my new HERO!
A capable woman in a crisis. Compassionate in her care of the survivors and then to go to the hospital and stay with a woman she just barely bonded with. Level-headed AND FOCUSED when ordered by Megan to gather people for dinner and was WHAT???? HELLO!!!!! MAJOR TRAUMA HERE…NOT GONNA DO IT.
AND publishing her SS# are you kidding me!!!??? No one in that high priced law firm caught that?
I say let’s be balanced here and publish JAR’s SS#. Just to be completely fair.
I guess my caps are an exaggeration but what’s Kelly gonna do about it?
WINNER!! ::
+9
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Anonymous Reply:
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:04 pm
@Rubies, That SS # thing was unbelievable! And then after Polk requests it be redacted for Kelly to oh so graciously step in and suggest that her address be redacted too – SHE DOESN’T LIVE THERE ANYMORE (you idiot) points out M. Polk. OMG. I am exhausted from wanting to punch him in the face. Melinda was awesome and fearless! By the end of the day Judge Darrow wanted to punch him in the face too – did you see how red His honor’s forehead got when Kelly interrupted him. YIKES
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Great comments, and I agree with everyone. Thx, SD for this awesome site.
Yes, I did see Melinda’s SS# paraded on the screen, and I couldn’t believe it!! What if someone had Tivo’ed this? Now it’s public knowledge… seems like she should do something about that, for sure.
Did you hear the discussion afterwards? Ms. Polk asked that Melinda’s SS# be removed. And also, that the defense submit any evidence or papers to be read from ahead of time, as she gave everything to them. Kelly was just wild, even rude, interrupting the judge! (law of attraction, eh?) He seemed to think it was just fine to print something from the internet, take it in and read from it without Ms. Polk knowing anything about it ahead of time…. Even in court, James Ray likes to surprise people, LOL. The judge didn’t rule, but said he had to think about it, although he almost ruled in the state’s favor on this issue.
Yay to Melinda! Strong, intelligent and classy. And I love it that she wasn’t manipulated or intimidated by his goofy repetitive questions – why keep asking if she’s already answered? Judge Darrow is soooo patient. Kelly is trying hard to discredit Melinda, but it’s not working. :)
WINNER!! ::
+8
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@Sara,
You obviously have not been paying close attention.
1. The Prosecution did not have those papers before hand as those papers were filed after the search warrant was served.
2. James Ray defense team is clearing breaking the law and violating the Discovery Rules of the State of Arizona.
3. Since you bring up lying, the Defense team takes the Gold Medal for lying and obfuscating the truth during this trial.
You sound like a plant or a deluded follower!
WINNER!! ::
+8
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@Sara,
Lying is never cool. Too bad James Ray defense team has been lying, exaggerating, and trying to prevent the full truth from getting out.
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SD Reply:
March 24th, 2011 at 10:47 am
@Chilon~Ephor ::
@Sara / @LeeKuanMinor
Stupid comments on this thread :: from proxy servers :: will be deleted.
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Was Kelly dressed down in the judge’s chambers by his behavior toward Melinda?
Or, hopefully, in addition, to Judge Darrow addressing Kelly’s courtroom conduct did the jury send a note to the judge stating his behavior was inappropriate?
Along with my fellow posters, kudos to Melinda for holding her own against this bully.
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Yea kelly certainly showed his fangs yesterday when Melinda Martin Pissed him off. Maybe the judge or his people told him about it. It could not have looked good to the jury. He seems like an A#1 first class asshole.I think he won prick of the year honers at some seminar so he’s pumped up on himself. His approach is so redundant and exhausting it seems like he’s confused. Does anyone know who the next witness will be? Thanks…
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Oh, sadnesses!! First, everyone behaves themselves this morning :( (except the judge–did you hear him tell Kelly that HE was exaggerating??–LMFAO).
Now, it looks like CNN really isn’t going to cover them this afternoon. Hell.
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scammed Reply:
March 24th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
@scammed,
Oopsie–I spoke too soon. I’m scolding myself. Scammed, hush up. It’s on.
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Did anyone happen to see Jane Velez-Mitchell this afternoon?
She spent about 15 minutes discussing this case, and Connie Joy made an appearance. Colleen Conaway was mentioned, although not by name. A reference was made to a lady who had committed suicide at a seminar two months prior to the sweat lodge. Jane seemed VERY interested in this, but didn’t have too much time to pursue it. Her on-air correspondent said that he was aware of it, but that it had not been brought up at the trial.
I guess there was really nothing new for those of us who are watching this story closely, but I always like to see it get covered and hopefully reach more people.
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Kalista7 Reply:
March 24th, 2011 at 11:07 pm
@Hippo, I didn’t see Jane this afternoon. Very interesting. I sure hope and pray that they bring in the incident with Colleen to the trial. Did you notice the defense asking a witness (was it Melinda?) about “going shopping” in Sedona the next day “after 2 people died in the sweat lodge” (quotes = emphasized). She stated yes, because she just had to get out of there, which is truly understandable. What about James Ray having a huge party after Colleen committed suicide?? His coldness is beyond my comprehension.
Today the jury asked if James Ray had any other programs after the sweat lodge, and I was happy to see that the jury found out that Ray had 2 seminars after the sweat lodge deaths… and didn’t he have a 3rd one scheduled, but there were so many protesters, that he canceled? Seems like I remember seeing that somewhere.
Also, does anyone know the judge’s ruling re: the law of discovery?
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Hippo Reply:
March 25th, 2011 at 7:56 am
@Kalista7,
I’m not actually watching the trial, I find it too upsetting, I only saw the clips of Melinda Martin that Jane showed.
I can’t imagine that Colleen’s death would be admissible, although I hope I’m wrong. The reason she was mentioned on Jane’s show is because Jane asked Connie if there were any indicators of how dangerous James Ray was, and Connie brought up what had happened to Colleen just two months previously.
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Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 25th, 2011 at 11:28 am
@Kalista7, Ray did indeed have a couple of events after Sedona 2009, including a World Wealth Summit, part of which occurred on the very day that Liz Neuman died. During those first weeks he was striving mightily to conduct business as usual.(In many ways he still is, though it’s a bit more of a challenge these days.) In any case the live events came to an end before the month of October was out. A Toronto event was scheduled for October 28, 2009, but the folks who showed up for it were met with a handwritten sign that said it had been canceled.
Here’s a link to an ABC news story dated October 29, 2009:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/inside-james-rays-inspirational-controversial-world/story?id=8939491
The story ends with this:
“On Ray’s Web site, he promises the events will be back up and running ‘once the essential work that must be done on the Sedona tragedy has been completed.’”
Of course, that was before the criminal charges had been filed.
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ALL HAIL MELINDA! What a good woman. I wish her joy and a fine life in her new adjustment from this tragedy.
I loved the final set of questions delivered by Polk in her redirect:
Q: Who ran the sweat lodge? A: James Ray
Q: Who poured the water? A: James Ray
Q: Who ordered the rocks? A: James Ray
Q: Who determined how long each round was? A: James Ray
Q: Who determined when the lodge was over? A: James Ray
I thought that was quite effective as a finale to Melinda’s testimony.
Having said that I need to state here because of the tenets of my belief in my practice, ATHEISTS COVER YOUR EARS HERE, I am obligated to pray for James Ray. We are taught to always pray for our enemies. I feel James Ray is an enemy to the ceremonies of the Inipi and Hanblechapi with his reckless disregard of the people involved in such ceremonies besides the fact of his corruption of these sacred practices. I cannot say what I pray for but I can say it’s not that he will be acquitted. I believe he should be held completely responsible for his actions, (something of Ray’s teaching about personal responsibility that I heard Lou Caci testify to). This is where the law of attraction really proves itself.
I actually don’t care that he be sent to prison. I do care that he never pours another lodge or puts another person on the hill or any of his employees, if he has any employees left.
WINNER!! ::
+10
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SD Reply:
March 25th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
@Rubies ::
I think there are far more important things at stake than him not pouring lodges. I understand that it’s a scared ceremony to many :: but it’s still just a ceremony. Tens of thousands of people were victimized by Ray without ever going near a sweat lodge … and the “industry” to which he is but a simple cog is victimizing millions.
As to making Melinda the queen :: I concur.
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Rubies Reply:
March 26th, 2011 at 2:04 am
@SD,
So we agree that Ray needs to have his cog taken out. Whether it’s through a prison conviction or an irredeemable reputation we need him to be put in a position where NO MORE HARM can come to people by his schlock and narcissistic behaviors.
BTW, I just love the {ball-o-tags} I could stare at that for minutes.
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jamo Reply:
April 4th, 2011 at 11:03 am
@SD, I agree SD, the whole industry, by and large, is victimizing millions
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I think there are a lot of people praying that James Ray will take full responsibility for what he caused. That he will find it within himself to say sorry. That he will somehow attempt recompense. That he will never again hold personal development seminars or anything remotely like it. But then again a lot of people are praying that the other idiots accused of stuff do the same thing. Here is hoping.
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When all’s said and done and Ray gets three consecutive life sentences, it would be great to watch a youtube feature on the trial, perhaps with some classic Ray moments from The Secret spliced in. I don’t know if I could watch the trial as it unfolds, just with the glimmer of a possibility this killer could get off.
That poor guy has no health insurance. And Ray didn’t give a single dime to any of his victims for their medical bills. But they did get phone support and conference calls, plus feedback from a psychic who said the ones who died were having so much out of body experience fun they didn’t want to come back. Who needs help paying extortionate hospital bills, when you have that level of support?
WINNER!! ::
+8
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Judge Darrow often seems a bit too mild mannered to deal with these attack dog defense lawyers. I see him looking frustrated (my interpretation) but he doesn’t step in to control the trial. Maybe he can’t, but it’s interesting to contrast his demeanor with that of the judge in the Casey Anthony trial who is keeping a tight rein on the lawyers. Darrow lets “mad dog” Kelly interrupt him, change his argument from one tactic to another so the “goalposts” are always moving, take a very aggressive tone with the judge. Maybe this is all part of the game, but it seems to me like this trial could get out of control very quickly, very easily–if it hasn’t already.
And, too, it seems sometimes that the defense is almost asleep during the state’s case–not objecting to anything–then they wake up and object to nearly every question.
I don’t pretend to know about how trials work. This is all fascinating to watch until the defense gets nasty. Then I have to turn it off.
Question: I read somewhere that Ray started out selling Herbalife. If true, it’s perfect.
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SD Reply:
March 25th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@coldweathergal ::
Judge Darrow — I actually kind of like his style. Contemplative is a better posture for a lawyer {especially a judge} than combative. Hostility is for no-skill hacks.
Herbalife — indeed :: http://saltydroid.info/four-funerals-and-a-wedding/
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Anonymous Reply:
March 26th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@coldweathergal, JAR was never an Herbalife Distributor. The Fredrickson’s were. In the early 2000′s JRI deliberately targeted network marketing companies (eg. Nikken, Herbalife) for prospects. Later he shifted to “new age” prospects, people who were already “seekers”. That didn’t work too well as those p