Guiding Light

Fade to Crap

It’s best not to have Great Expectations :: as they only lead to great disappointments.  The moment you start believing that you are going to end up with the pretty girl :: Miss Havisham will intrude and bollix all of your fondest hopes.  Wouldn’t it be better to fly by the seat of your “I eat too many processed foods” pants?

James Arthur Ray “thinks” so :: which is why the Spiritual Warrior Participant Guide :: sent out in July of 2009 :: contains almost no useful information about what to expect from the event.  As Death Ray explains …

“Keep in mind that we will be working diligently to make this event memorable. For this reason, it is important that we do not disclose any further information regarding the event schedule or planned activities. However, we will tell you that it is going to be an exciting, unforgettable, and transformational week!”

Things can’t be memorable if they are expected.  Of course :: surprise and confusion are important for keeping people vulnerable and mentally unbalanced :: making them far easier to manipulate :: and greatly increasing their tendency to follow the group.  But that’s cynical … I’m sure it’s just about keeping things “memorable.”

The unforgettable transformational memorableness could be dampened by giving participants some idea of what they should expect …

Keep in mind that previous iterations of this event led to dreadful calamity and serious injury.  Broken bones, broken bank accounts, brain damage, and long term health problems are all previously encountered outcomes.  It is also important to note that nothing new will be learned, and that your guru for this event has not been trained in ANYTHING … EVER.  He’s just a douche bag salesman with his own serious mental health issues.  However, we will tell you that some people are going to die during this event … and it just doesn’t get any more transformational than that!

Sounds lame :: count me out.

In addition to the fucking ridiculous $10,000 that participants had already paid for this event :: the guide explains how they must register and pay a tidy $267 per night for accommodations at Angel Valley {six nights = $1602}.  Guests are invited to stay a few extra nights at the “special discounted rate” {otherwise known as the regular rate?} of $155 per night. Don’t want to pay for the price gouged lodging?  That’s cool :: what with JRI’s no refund policy … you can just eat the $10k you’ve already forked over … and go fuck yourself.

Speaking of Miss Havisham :: the Spiritual Warrior Guide also mentions another crotchety old lady :: Bill Harris

“An integral element of the program will rely upon group use of Holosync technology. If you would like to learn more about this technology, please visit the Centerpointe Research Institute website at If you have not yet invested in this technology, you will need to do so prior to Spiritual Warrior.” {emphasis original}

Notice that NewlyWed Scammers Harris and Ray bastardize the words “technology” and “investment” in a similar manner to the Scamming MotherShip of Scientology. Harris’ ridiculous $2,000 CD’s are “technology” in the same way that the Centerpointe Research Institute does “research” or has an “institute.”  One wonders how big a percentage Ray was getting from participant’s “investment” into Harris’ stinking turds. The Droid attempted to contact Harris about this matter via mental telepathy :: but it turns out telepathy :: like Holosync :: is bullshit.

Other required items on the checklist …

  • bag of chewing tobacco
  • 3 x 3 square of fabric
  • 20 baby wipes
  • power objects (i.e. objects that hold special meaning for you)
  • six feet of string (preferably red, but color not critical)

Items that should have been on the checklist but weren’t …

  • Automatic External Defibrillator
  • Duct tape {to cover Death Ray’s mouth}
  • 40 baby wipes {because 20 just isn’t enough}
  • Jaws of life {to remove Megan’s head from Death Ray’s ass}
  • A priest :: a rabbi :: and a lawyer {to tell you to get the hell out of there and take you to a bar}

>> bleep bloop

132 thoughts on “Guiding Light”

  1. If everyone had just skipped Ray’s events altogether, and been introduced to the new, special secret wish dolly technology…well, who knows.

    The best “technology,” of course, is the “secret magic wish dolly printout” as delivered unto the world (and universe) by Joe Vitale and Pat O’Bryan. The magical PDF file (which you can print yourself!) is only $40, which is a BARGAIN compared to the price of a not-all-costs-included visit to an out of town sweat lodge. If you’re ready for a change in your life (such as a lightening of that heavy purse or wallet), then this is for YOU!

    Behold the mystical technology that will transform your life:

    And if that doesn’t just tickle your metaphysical booty, enjoy this time wasting video of the amazing Pat O’Bryan, the second wizard-of-wimberley (texas), seen here wearing his special internet marketing garb:


    1. I shall always remember Pat fondly not only as the marketing brains behind the Wish Dolly, but also as the one who, on a now-deleted passage on his blog, called me “a first-rate writer with a second-rate mind,” incapable of logic and coherence. I enjoyed hearing his explanation of how the Siglo MasterMind group helped Joe Vitale become a movie star. (For those who didn’t watch the vid: Joe walked into one of their MasterMind sessions one day and announced he wanted to be in a movie. The other members kinda shook their heads, wondering how THAT was going to happen. And then… “A year later, ‘The Secret’ hits.”) [Not to mention a host of imitator flicks that Joe and other Secret ‘teachers’ also ‘starred’ in ~CC]

      And THAT’S the power of a MasterMind.

      Joe’s success as a movie star, plus Pat’s success as a bestselling author, plus the fact that the two lesser Sigloids, Bill-n-Craig, wrote books…all of these things were apparently due to the power of *intentions* set by a group of like-minded people in a MasterMind group. (Never mind that Joe has written, “Intentions are for wimps!”)

      I’m sure the Sigloids are rich sources of stunning logic, but, alas, my second-rate mind just can’t quite wrap itself around it all.

      1. “a first-rate writer with a second-rate mind”

        Oh, that’s hilarious. I mean, freaking hilarious. I could not disagree more. It takes a first-rate mind to BE a first-rate writer! O’Bryan’s got it ass-backwards.

        He’s entirely jealous.

      2. Connie- Pat here.

        1. You know I’m not the “marketing genius” behind that. I’m proud of that product, but I don’t think I’m gonna put “marketing genius” on my resume’ just yet. I write and record the music.

        2. I will apologize in high-def video to you for that “second rate mind” crack the minute you prove me wrong.

        Write a book. You can do it. 60,000+ words or so.

        Get it published. You know how to write a book proposal. If you can really write, you can get a book deal.

        Put it out there and let us see what you can do.

        And then

        1. we’ll see if you can actually combine writing with coherence on a professional scale

        2. we’ll see if you can take the blow-back

        Right now, you’re in the position of sitting in the bleachers watching the game and saying “I could’a done it better.”
        “Look at that idiot, he missed that easy grounder.” And yet… you stay in the bleachers. Get in the game.

        I’ll warn you, though. In all fairness you probably shouldn’t.

        Right now, you’ve got a fairly small choir that you can preach to. It’s a cold world out there. No matter what you do, you’re going to piss somebody off. The next thing you know, you’ll find yourself the victim of dim-wits and see your words twisted out of context to satisfy the traffic-lust of bloggers. Leave your comments section open on and get that wonderful feeling of having people who have never read your book trash it because of your associations. It will make you all tingly. Not.

        It’s worth it, I think. I’d like to see you do it. It’s the only way you’ll ever know if you’re just faking it or if you’ve actually got what it takes.

        And- think of the pay-off. I would apologize on video, put it on you-tube, and you can use it however you like. That’s a contract.

        And, you’d know. That’s the big one.

        1. @Pat ::

          Are you fucking kidding me?

          You got one thing right in that moronic comment :: you are NOT a genius. Of the marketing … or any other variety. You are just a fat :: disgusting :: deplorable :: two-bit conman with your head so far up your own ass that you’ve lost all contact with reality.

          1. Nothing about Connie’s mind is second rate :: which is totally obvious to anyone with half a brain just by reading any one random paragraph of her’s in any context.

          2. I’ve never heard her say she could “do it better.” What she’s usually saying is that you assholes should stop doing what you’re doing altogether … because it’s so obvious that it’s hurting people. Maybe you should stop flapping your stupid mouth for five seconds and LISTEN.

          3. If you do apologize :: please don’t do so in hi-def unless you are behind a sheet talking through a hole.

          4. I’m so sorry that even the “dim-wits” on Amazon are capable of trashing your idiot little book in a way that hurts your precious feelings. It’s really sad and worthy of pity given the context of this post … WHERE FOUR PEOPLE ARE FUCKING DEAD!! DEAD!!! In no small part thanks to the actions of your “pisses himself” sugar momma.

          Let me just quote you … on this blog back in December: “get out if you can. you are way outta your league.”

          Huh. Well turns out Bill Harris is just another sissified bitch who slithered away from me in horror just like all the rest of you conning d-bags. But I’m NOT done with him yet … and I’m not done with you either. So you best heed your own lame advice …

          Get out if you can Pat :: Cause you are WAY :: WAY :: WAY :: outta your fucking league.

        2. Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the laughs, Pat. I especially enjoyed the “I’m Mr. Big Time” schtick. It was almost as entertaining as your earlier threats (and every bit as credible).

          Truth is, Connie would never try to do what you do. Her standards are simply too high. See, she is one of those irritating folks who lives by a code of ethics that aren’t malleable according to whim. But we’ve already established how foreign that concept is to you.

          BTW – Come back when you’ve created a couple dozen books, had a handful of them picked up by traditional publishers, and had something you created spend over a month on the NY Times bestseller list (Gaming one’s way to a brief stint on Amazon’s bestseller list by begging everyone on your e-mail list doesn’t count). Until you can do that, you aren’t even in Connie’s league, much less qualified to spray your ill-founded arrogance in her direction.

        3. Thank you to Droid, Ron, and others who came to my defense.

          What’s ironic here is that I sort of came to *Pat’s* defense on an Amazon discussion about his book. Someone wrote a one-star “review” complaining not about the book itself but about some of the products in the incentive package. The complainant said she got a bunch of spam when she signed up for the bonuses. A few people pointed out that this wasn’t technically a review of Pat’s book and I agreed.

          Here’s the link:

          Pat, I’m sorry if I unfairly gave you credit for marketing the Wish Dolly. I thought you were very much involved with the marketing, especially since you wrote at least part of the sales copy (e.g., the part about the left-brained look at the product). You also sent out email blasts about it, and Joe sent out blasts too, quoting you. But if that doesn’t constitute marketing, then you’ll just have to chalk it up to my basic ignorance about your industry.

          And I have helped numerous authors with *their* books, both self-published and trade-published. So I know a little bit about *that* industry. Maybe not as much as you, with your bestselling book, but a little bit.

          In any case, I don’t have to have had a publishing deal myself in order to have a qualified opinion about the topics I discuss on my blog or this one.

          And I am not asking for an apology from you. “First rate writer with a second rate mind” kind of has a ring to it. I might use it for my own branding.

        4. Connie, seems that Pat adheres to the dictum ‘No good deed goes unpunished’
          Perhaps you should introduce him to Pavlina and his Dom/sub fixation.

        5. Connie’s product, in this genre, is her blog and her commentary. Whether or not she CHARGES for it or writes in a way that meets Pat “Is that a hole in my leg or did I just become a girl” O’Bryan’s weak standards of success is irrelevant.

          Connie’s product and her work in this genre of critical analysis has stood the test of time. Her audience continues to grow. Her impact cannot be denied.

          Look at her impact on you, Pat. You keep having hissy fits about her. IT MUST BE WORKING.

          I think the HCG and starvation diet is affecting your thought processes. Go slither back to the east Texas hole you came from.

    2. ~Pat O. “You know … I had guys around me that I could … suck their heads basically”

      ha! no need to join a mastermind for that … just go to the bus station

      1. All these lost years of running Ross’s “BJ patterns” in bars… I coulda just joined a mastermind.

      2. This quote will live on forever.

        “I had guys around me that I could suck their heads.” – Pat O’bryan

        1. “I had guys around me that I could suck their heads.” – Pat O’bryan, ON HIS SECRET TO SUCKSESS

        2. Can’t you just tell with such phrasing that Pat sucks at writing sales copy.
          Who’d buy that visual image?

      3. Stoic wrote: “Connie, seems that Pat adheres to the dictum ‘No good deed goes unpunished’ Perhaps you should introduce him to Pavlina and his Dom/sub fixation.”

        No need, Stoic. Pat’s buddy Joe is apparently good friends with Pavlina; they hung around together at last year’s Transformational Leadership Council get-together in Bermuda. Joe is impressed with the traffic Steve gets on his site. And Steve endorsed Joe’s Attract Money Now book.

        So if Pat wants to meet Steve, I’m sure Joe could arrange it.

    3. So…what do you imagine cigar chompin’ Pat “Head Sucker” O’Bryan thinks to himself when he visits this blog and finds his grizzled mug plastered at the top of this post, followed by these comments? Does he think:

      1. All publicity is good publicity

      2. Cool, I’m mentioned in the same sentence as my mentordaddy, Joe “Dry Sheets” Vitale

      3. Shit, I better post some more anonymous comments and deploy the Wimberley subterfuge team at once

      4. Hoshun…help me!

      1. I imagine Pat will find the nearest baseball bat and attempt to dish out vigilante justice east-Texas style. (He recently remarked on Twitter that he’d like to do that to me.)

        He’s chomping at the bit to fight back and defend the great Hoshun wish dolly printouts and his binaural-beat-off downloads.

        But since he shot himself in the leg a while back, he’ll probably just smack himself in the head with the baseball bat. Then he’ll cry to his locked-down Twitter followers about how critics are a bunch of losers while icing down his skull.

        1. Pat O’Bryan shot himself in the leg? Well, he must be quite the sharpshooter! That’s “pretty dang impressive” as they say around the old trailer park!

          What was Pat doing that attracted that bullet down in that region? On second thought, I don’t really want to know. Ok, I guess I do. I need another laugh!

    4. Step right up! See Pat “HeadSucker” O’Bryan sucking on his sugarpop’s, Joe “Dry Sheets” Vitale’s 70 year old (ahem) cigar. You’ll be amazed as Pat actually blows smoke out of something other than his ass! You’ll be even MORE amazed that you sat through this self-indulgent video. See for yourself how the purchase of secret magic paper wish dollies and other destined-for-a-garage-sale trinkets can make a real difference in the lives of the short and squat, and their scruffy sidekicks. Bonus: See the other 2 members of the “famous Siglo 4” ALSO blowing smoke! This is an EPIC video NOT TO BE MISSED (unless you have something better to do, such as anything):


      1. Not since I opened Capone’s vault on network television has the air been so thick with antici

        pation. Only question I have is, what happened to Goober? He duck under the table? No wonder Joe DeVito is smiling so big… getting some “special attention” from his chief head sucker. Tell the truth, though, I liked “Joe” better in Romancing the Stone.

        1. I actually liked “Joe” better in “Throw Momma from the Train,” although “Romancing the Stone” was pretty good, too. Actually, come to think of it, he was pretty good as “The Penguin.” Especially the part where he ate the raw fish that was tossed to him. I wonder if he does that at his book signings?

          1. You are forgeting Joe’s best ever role :: It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia!!

            Although I’m currently in said Philly :: and it’s not sunny at all. Another one of Joe’s lies …

        2. See, now you gave Joe Vitale an actual idea. If Capone could have a vault, why not Mr. Fire?

          He’s opening his “vault” – which is probably really called his crypt where he kept his wallet-sucking self when the sun shines anywhere near him.

          He’s opening the vault now, but only if you spend $39 a month as a crypt-member. He’ll scan someone else’s (likely) copyrighted book and share it’s Vitale-blessed digital version with you if you join his crypt/vault club.

          And you get… forums! Where you can chat with other members, so you’ll be free from those evil trollers. I guess Pat won’t be participating.

      2. This of course is the Launch Formula trailer for their next product, an old magical cigar box, sealed, which might contain anything or nothing. Ah, the anticipation, what will you get in yours?

        A note from Castro?
        A hoard of gold?
        70 year old Cuban chewing gum?
        A magical cigar?
        The contents of the ashtray?
        An empty cigar box?

        Just $47.97 and the magical secret is yours.

    5. Joe Vitale is now selling the SECRET to his “homemade wine.” He says it’s his dad’s recipe and that he and his brothers made it while his dad supervised, and they made 50 gallons at a time.

      No wonder he was pissing himself!

      What a “traumatic” childhood. Thank goodness he now has the sales revenue from that recipe to help him recover from those days of pure, grape hell!

      Also notice that according to Joe, when he went to Italy awhile back, he discovered a NUN was using the SAME formula to make wine that his dad used. Imagine that! The nerve of that nun! The nerve of Italy!

      “Also also” notice the P.S. where he mentions that store-bought wine may contain “sulfates or other ‘addictives’.” So true. We all probably have friends or neighbors who are addicted to preservatives.

  2. oh this is too good. “Keep in mind that we will be working diligently to make this event memorable” too good.

    The usual douchebag death-trap. Silence them, keep the whole thing mysterious (that just because the douchebags dont have a clue what they are going to tell their captives anyway, they just want their money) and at the big reveal its all over when they find out they’ve been conned.

    In addition the d-bag from OZ is doing the rounds in the US with his very obvious “we are desparate to suck you morons in” abundantly sleazy opportunities too. Guess they’ll do the usual secret suck job and see how much they can con off people for free then turn around and go home and leave a stink the size of Manhattan.

      1. Unfortunately for hilarity :: I’m currently away from my favorite city. I hope to be back by then … but it’s looking unlikely.

        1. If you get back in time, Droid, I’m sure everyone here would donate the ticket for you, as long as we get to see the results!

        2. He got so many people lining up to come along (NOT) hes now giving out the tickets for FREE. For sure trying to increase his database of US sustomers so he can bombard them with marketing crap about what he cant do.

          He deserves a visitor with a lot of questions like if he has not fulfilled his obligations in Australia (looks like the taxation office are now after him too) how can anyone ever be sure that he wont do the same things in America.

          Splutter splutter, stutter, stutter and the response will be ….. those vindictive people down under are following me everywhere and they are just sooooooooooooooo jealous of my sucksess. Surely those Aussie reporters would have “friends” in the US and who knows where they’ll pop up, hehehehe.

          He needs to learn how to make his bed the untidy bastard.

        3. Seriously, if anyone can go along, just stand up and say “David, I’m a reporter for A Current Affair, and we’d like to know, when are you going to give these people their money back” and watch him scurry off to the mens toilets.

      2. I don’t keep up with the man from OZ; however, I do live 90 miles from Chicago. If anyone wants to pass on the info, perhaps I can go and report back to you. What am I thinking?

  3. oh this is too good. “Keep in mind that we will be working diligently to make this event memorable” too good.

    The usual douchebag death-trap. Silence them, keep the whole thing mysterious (that just because the douchebags dont have a clue what they are going to tell their captives anyway, they just want their money) and at the big reveal its all over when they find out they’ve been conned.

    In addition the d-bag from OZ is doing the rounds in the US with his very obvious “we are desparate to suck you morons in” abundantly sleazy opportunities too. Guess they’ll do the usual secret suck job and see how much they can con off people for free then turn around and go home and leave a stink the size of Manhattan.

    1. Yes,most seminar slimebags/life coaches are about money,but DeathRay had a much more sinister goal,which is why it’s no accident that 4 people are dead and many injured after JRI events.

      On 2/17,when we were debating LK,the madman, at NYM,I posted a version of the following:

      At a gym, people work out with minimal or no supervision.When they do work with a trainer,as Bryan Neuman, per Cassandra Yorgey pointed out,a trainer would never legally keep pushing someone until they died or were injured!The sweat trap in Sedona is not comparable to a gym, but to an exercise class. Let’s say a charismatic teacher calls his classes “HOT AIROBICS” to create a marketing edge. He says it’s “results driven, high energy,and more intense than any other aerobics class in the world.”

      The exercise “guru” uses quotes and ideas borrowed from famous trainers,exercise rituals,and even religions.He says he uses “secret techniques” that he studied from some obscure person who worked with “Soviet/Eastern Bloc athletic programs”,for instance. He compares himself to Jack LaLanne,although he’s never met him. He uses his convoluted philosophy to attract and keep students.He finds endorsements on the talk show circuit.The kind of people attracted to his program are HIGH ACHIEVERS willing to pay a lot for results!

      The philosophy is to work out longer in a hotter room and create personal awareness at the same time. The teacher requires students to often engage in risky,weird activities unrelated to the workouts.But he assures them it’s “to develop mind over matter”. Sometimes they go on public outings.During one such outing,a woman dies,and it’s ruled suicide by the police, but many people,especially those close to her,say she would never have killed herself.

      Over the years many participants get sick,pass out and suffer injuries.On one occasion,911 is called when a man becomes delirious from heat exhaustion.None of these incidents concern the teacher; he takes no precautions to avoid danger.Instead, he deliberately increases risk and orders his staff to tell students physical distress is “normal”.He says things like,”Without suffering,you can’t reach your goals.” (NOTE: The teacher never works out with the students,rather,he walks around on a little stage under skin-enhancing lighting,barking orders over a headset.Assistants don’t help students at all,they just stand to the side and make sure everyone buys products.)

      The final class is the hottest,hardest,and most expensive.It is held at a resort.Students fast from food and water,typically after the final workout,but,without explanation and without warning, the fast is rescheduled to BEFORE the workout. Two days before this,the teacher has staged a “death game” called “God” which he says he learned from a movie starring Mr.Tom Cruise.(His lawyers will later say he learned it while working at AT&T.)

      Dehydrated,tired students cram into a dimly lit room filled with loud music. The heat is gradually turned up by an assistant who monitors the thermostat. Students begin to vomit,foam at the mouth,and pass out.Those near the heat vents in the back are the most troubled and are not moving.In spite of people screaming, crying,and saying people are in distress,the teacher REFUSES to stop the class! People are on the floor, but he keeps going and going,barking orders over the speakers,ignoring what is going on.For two hours.Then it’s over.

      The assistants turn on the lights and the teacher stares,unmoved, at almost two dozen students lying on the floor. Some are unconsious,some are curled up in fetal position. Vomit is everywhere. He doesn’t bother to check on the three people who aren’t moving at the back of the room. He does nothing to help them.He does not call 911. Rather, he smiles,”high fives” a man sitting against the wall,then leaves the room to take a shower, change clothes, grab something to eat, and call his lawyers.

      1. That’s so disturbingly sad isn’t it. I read that and it just upsets me that someone would willingly cause other people that level of pain & suffering just to feed one pathetic ego.

        Excellent analogy Jean, it completely highlights the pointless self-servingness of it all.


  4. yo has anyone called up those slimes at JRI to see if the death ray is going to do more seminars soon?
    it would be best if a young woman called up, as JRI likes the young ladies who have some disposable income, and even a disposable life.

    to get more details she could get into a gab fest about how her wealthy relatives are financing her spiritual journey and she wants to take some seminars with ray, and even get into a big long fake talk with the JRI slime to get more details.

    this is the death ray phone number, just don’t call from a home phone number unless you want to get spammed by JRI telemarketing in the future

    JRI number
    1-866-MINDSET (1-866-646-3738)

    1. @Calls ::

      I’ve tried that number numerous times on various days :: never been able to get though. Just tried again … still not working.

      1. @Jean D

        Hey The Anticult made a reference to Toyota today as well :: great minds think alike!!

        If he actually has the balls show up to Chicago in June … I guarantee you I’ll be there to make him regret it … and I’ll help organize anyone else who wants to show. But I’m telling you people … those particular seminars aren’t happening.

    2. “JRI likes the young ladies who have some disposable income, and even a disposable life.”

      There is no smoke without fire they say and there is of course at least one other inglorious bastard in the big secret who has a fatal fascination for destroying the lives of attractive and financial packages too. But the guys deluded enough to claim having an amazing relationship with a partner and the family and financial life could not be worse (oops I should have written better). Add a bit of the Jesus Justification to that mix too and thats where it all starts getting really really snake-oily. Theres nothing quite like the satisfaction you get from fooling people for as long as possible is there? “Jesus is coming, lets look busy….” (thanks whoever said it)

      JR doesnt have the monopoly on that amazing quality, its almost appears a moral obligation for all selfish help sleazebags and their dumbass partners.

      1. Is that the same guy who is travelling around the US at the moment with his wife waiting for people to lick his ass because he thinks hes just so good? Its hilarious the blinded people who feel a need to “follow” people like this thinking that somehow that person is going to do something wonderful for them. The best they can do it take their money while smiling. The worst they can do is take away their life. The rest go somewhere in between and claim to have some sort of extraterestrial enlightenment and they make a career out of it. They find that some people swoon over them and others despise them and those feelings all come down to personal experience. To requote what that stupid woman said “people will only remember you for how you made them feel”. Well hello stupid guess who rates #1 for being blind.

  5. Tobacco? I don’t get it. Does he think it’s an “Indian thing”? I guess I’m asking everyone to bring green M&Ms to my “David Lee Roth/Van Halen Hairmonic Wealth” Seminar.

    1. @Carlon ::

      All of your comments go to spam. I don’t get it. You and Akismet need to kiss and make up or something.

      What is the deal with the tobacco? Does anyone know?

      1. From what I’ve read it is traditional to offer tobacco to the lodge leader or water pourer, no cash of course but a small useful thank-you gift.
        You have some Native American readers who can clarify this, I’m sure.

        1. What I gather from the witness statements is that they took their tobacco pouches with them on the vision quest, and then hung them up in the sweat lodge. It sounds like Carlon has it right – that it’s coz that’s what the “real Indians” do.

          Ray told them all to tip the fire maker a few dollars. It sounds like that was his fee.

      2. It’s been a tradition to give tobacco as a gift as Yakaru says. Most medicine men and women will gladly accept a carton of cigarettes,though. Remember Ray is from Oklahoma and probably learned some stuff growing up. We don’t have any reservations in Oklahoma,but there are tribal offices and trust lands. Almost anywhere you live, you know Indians.

      3. @Droid

        I was wondering why my comments stopped showing up. I thought it was a conspiracy by those who are attacking me, trying to keep me from posting to the Droid. Here’s a test. If you see this in spam, no need to post it. But please free my other comments.

  6. Jaws of life {to remove Megan’s head from Death Ray’s ass}

    …FUNNY. Thanks for the laugh.

  7. Lots of energy being expended about Ray (from both sides), not the least of which from my own addled mind. After awakening in the middle of the night recently, I had an epiphany of sorts concerning Ray… though it might have just been a dream-state reaction to the acid reflux… gotta lay off the late-night snacks slathered in hot sauce. But I digress…

    My blinding moment of wisdom came as the result of following Ray’s Twitter blurbs. My first reaction to his blurbs was anger… How could anyone be as insensitive and callous? How could this clown preach about enlightenment, even quoting real teachers from the past, after what happened in Sedona (and afterward)?

    Then, it hit me: Perhaps he’s not really a psychopath. Perhaps he’s just a putz who found himself working at tasks too far above his pay grade (and mental capacity). Or maybe he really is a psychopath, being coached by psychopaths in the best way to deflect a lawsuit and/or criminal charges: by convincing everyone that his cheese had slid off his cracker, leaving him in never-never land. And what if the coaching worked? (Note standard NewWage marketing line!) What if he has indeed gone loopy on us? Should we feel compassion for the guy? Tell him it’s OK that people died as a result of his little circus, just take the little pills and shuffle off to the solarium & watch some TV? All valid questions.

    When I finally realized that I wasn’t going to get back to sleep, I got up and started writing a blog post, eager to share my brilliant insight with both of my readers. I titled it “Wounded Warrior, Madman, or Psychopath…
    or perhaps all three?” Clever play on words, eh?

    I want the guy to have his day in court, have a fair trial, blah, blah, blah. At least that’s what the “noble, compassionate me” image I’d prefer to cultivate would prefer. On the other hand, there’s a part of me that would really would like for the guy to either ‘fess up to being an asshole and spend some quality time with his new roomie, or at least put a sock in his mouth, wrap his fingers with duck tape, and can the empty platitudes.

    1. To RRR:

      I think you’re talking about a kind of closure that most of us would like to see from criminals.

      The court does not care about any of this, and will (hopefully) convict him on the evidence.

      I watch a lot of true-crime documentaries, and the behavior of the defendants, the bizarre things they say, is pretty astounding. Some of them “want to set the record straight,” and agree to interviews.

      I do find myself wondering how in touch with reality they are.

      1. One of the funniest lines from “The Simpsons” was when they did a faux exposé on the rise and fall of their popularity, a la how some cable shows do documentaries on rock stars who rise and plummet dramatically.

        One of the “bumpers” they used when going to commercial had a teaser of Homer Simpson saying, “I want to set the record straight: I…. THOUGHT… the COP… was… a… PROSTITUTE.”

    2. @RRR ::

      I read your interesting post the other day {thanks to google alerts}

      I’m not sure there is much room for doubt :: IMO :: he’s all psychopath. He’s as close to an archetypal psychopath as you can get. Compare the awesome wikipedia definition to his pathetic little life …

      One of his many problems however … is that he’s not especially good at it. Some psychopath’s can mirror … and they are the most dangerous creatures on earth. But as Ray’s current Twitter spewing is illustrating so vividly … he can’t mirror. He can’t even pretend to follow social conventions. Given his current circumstances … that inability likely dooms him. It’s a very strange thing to watch.

      I love how everyone is giving him the Twitter smack down … but the virtue of that is for the listeners … for those who have yet to detach themselves from his myth. Because even if he’s reading it {which I doubt} … he can’t hear it. He doesn’t speak our language.

      Pitying a psychopath is like pitying a Toyota with a stuck accelerator plowing through a school zone. There’s no point. Just stop it :: and take it out of service before it kills any kids.

      1. A lot of people’s idea of a psychopath is Jack Nicholson chasing Shelley Duvall around the lodge with an axe. The real definition is more boring, but sometimes more dangerous than that, and when you understand it, you also understand why the Droid applies the term to so many internet marketers.

        1. To Unicorn Army:

          Agreed. It could be Jack Nicholson chasing Shelly Duvall with an axe, or it could be James Ray eating unconcernedly in his underwear, while people he injured are dying nearby.

      2. I wrote a blog post recently myself about “loving your enemies without idiot compassion or shaming” on the same night RevRon wrote his post. But yet I have to agree here with The Droid. Ray is a prototypical psychopath/sociopath.

        Loving one’s enemies does not mean letting them hurt anyone (that’s idiot compassion in a nutshell), nor does it necessarily even mean ceasing to speak out or seek justice. It *definitely* does NOT mean shaming or blaming the victims.

        But I do think there is something here that I want to explore at least. If we can love everyone except the malignant narcissist sociopath, then we are singling him out for special treatment–i.e. giving him narcissistic supply. Is there a way we can love all without any compromise whatsoever in terms of seeking justice? I’m not sure, but I thought I’d throw out the possibility.

        Sorry for making the comments all mushy and stuff. You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

        1. Duff – A big part of my belief system is built upon a deep respect for all life. That doesn’t mean I won’t eat meat or kill a rattlesnake… only that I recognize what I am doing, accept responsibility for what I do, and accept the fact that what I believe to be necessary behavior might not be the “right thing to do” in the spiritual/emotional sense. Sounds paradoxical – even hypocritical – butI can live with it.

        2. To Duff:

          The only way you can give a psychopath narcissistic supply is if you pay attention to him. So when you say “special treatment,” that is, not giving him love, you’re only giving him narcissistic supply if you villify him.

          If you ignore him, he’s not getting any narcissistic supply at all.

      3. This has me very puzzled too. While I agree that he must be stopped, the fact that this is less than obvious to the New Age milieu makes me wonder if this is less than exclusively financially driven.
        We have Pavlina crowing on his blog about the joyful potential of exploiting his sexual slaves to run his business, justifying it by assuming the slaves will get some vague spiritual benefit.
        Death Rays constant stream of self aggrandising tweets seem driven by more than self-justification and coralling the faithful.
        What struck me was the pride and defiance in this appalling behaviour and I wondered if we are seeing the birth of a new movement, ‘out and proud, psychopaths are humans too and should have full rights to practice their psychopathy.’

        I have to stop thinking at that point as my imagination is vivid and I don’t want nightmares, but I hope this is not a growing trend.
        I’d say we should give him exactly as much compassion as he has himself so far shown for his victims, ie none.

        1. In fairness to Pervlina, I should point out that on his blog he was writing hypothetically about how a dominant/submissive relationship (not necessarily sexual) could work in various business settings. However wrongheaded most of us may find *that* idea, I don’t think he was saying that he uses, or plans to use, “sex slaves” to run his own business. (I could be wrong, of course, but I am only going by what I read on the Pervlina posts that I cited in my own post about his D/s experiment.) In any case, since he has apparently fallen in love with his own erstwhile sex slave, it seems they’ve slacked off a bit on the D/s role-playing.

          However, Stoic, I think you’re spot-on in your larger point about the possibilities of a growing trend in which appalling behavior is not merely rationalized but openly celebrated.

        2. SD – “Pitying a psychopath is like pitying a Toyota with a stuck accelerator plowing through a school zone.”

          Yes. I kinda felt a bit sorry for him briefly when I saw him manacled, but that’s exactly the kind of normal human response he relies on. Normal people just don’t want to feel the kind of feelings that are a healthy and appropriate response to a psycho like him.

          I’m impressed with what peole are saying to him on twitter. There’s one chick who’s some kind of new age abundance freak who’s really laying the boots in. Good to see.

        3. Just a thought, Cosmic Connie, if Pervlina is not exploiting his sexual slaves ‘hypothetically’ (that word spoilt a good story!) how is his new fad of Dom/sub in the workplace any different from the time-honoured capitalist model of boss/worker?
          Hasn’t this been done before, just about everywhere?

        4. Stoic asked, “how is [Steve Pavlina’s] new fad of Dom/sub in the workplace any different from the time-honoured capitalist model of boss/worker? Hasn’t this been done before, just about everywhere?”

          The difference is that in the traditional capitalistic model the worker gets paid (in money) and presumably has some rights.

          However, Pervlina’s D/s hypothetical bidness models also have parallels in the bidness world. He imagined two different scenarios, one in which a business owner has an unpaid slave to do the owner’s bidding; and one where an unpaid manager tells the owner exactly what to do to grow the business. Pervlina notes that you could call the unpaid slave an “intern” or the unpaid manager a “mentor” or “board member.” The point he tries to make is that a relationship with an unequal power structure can be beneficial to both parties. But then he enters into snark territory by trying to tie *that* in to the ways in which a sexual relationship based on D/s can also be beneficial to both the D and the s.

          Of course, when love enters the picture — especially when the s beats the hell out of the D at Star Trek Trivia — all bets are off. Who said romance is dead?

      4. Salty, I agree with the absurdity of pitying a psychopath. That’s not what I’m suggesting. As distasteful as JAR’s behavior is to me, I can’t be so sure that it is a manifestation of true sociopathy. As noted, a true sociopath is adept at morphing into what his victims want to see. In my experience, a psychopath would be more likely to play up an image of remorse than to engage in behaviors that would further inflame an ever-increasing throng of critics (which is what JAR is doing now).

        The real question to me is whether he a) has suffered a genuine psychotic break as a result of recent events, and is spouting platitudes in a desperate attempt to seek some kind of justification/redemption, even if only in his own mind, b) is behaving per coaching by his legal team in preparation for a defense based upon his lack of competency (see psychopath, above), or c) he is simply too stupid and/or arrogant to listen to his attorneys and shut his pie hole, as you suggest. My gut feeling is that it’s somewhere between b and c. As I’d said, however, only time will tell, and I think any of the above (or a combination) is very possible.

        1. To RRR:

          I think it would be poetic justice if Ray suffered a psychotic break–I believe that’s what he did to Colleen Conaway.

        2. @RRR ::

          There are subtle differences between socio & psychopathy. Death Ray :: it seems to me :: is very much on the psychopath side of that fence. Lots of psychopaths have no ability to fake it. Everything I’ve read about him in these past months :: which is a TON :: says that he can’t fake it. He’s all aggression and risk taking.

          Can psychopaths have psychotic break downs? That I don’t know :: but I don’t feel like his current behavior has deviated much from his previous behavior. His circumstances have changed … but he’s still doing the same shit. It just feels weird to all of us because we are still attached to objective reality.

          As far as an insanity/competency plea … rule it out of your thinking. That’s not what’s happening. First, it gets done during the pleadings. You don’t need to have a trial on the facts if your defense is insanity. You just enter a plea of Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity … and then you submit to evaluation by the state. He already entered his plea. Second :: he’d lose that. Insanity as a defense to a long term pattern of recklessness is a 100% guaranteed loser. Third :: his actions now are not admissible as to his sanity at the time of the crimes.

        3. My hunch is that he actually believes his self-serving unconditional commitment to positive thinking, and so he doesn’t know what else to do except continue to think positively about himself.

          No matter what though, he should be jailed, the entirety of his assets liquidated and given to his victims, and he should be barred from ever teaching anything remotely like a weekend workshop again.

        4. @Rev Ron Ray’s immediate reaction after Sedona was to garner pity. I think his team did tell him to stop.

          @Stoic Dr.Martha Stout,in “The Sociopath Next Door”,talks about how sociopaths are made,where they come from.She does proposes that more are appearing in our society and attributes it to beliefs that are not based on The Golden Rule. She quotes the Dalai Lama as saying these are “people who don’t have well-developed human lives”.

        5. Jean D, Ken McCarthy, at one of his seminars, actually suggested reading the “The Sociopath Next Door”. If I remember correctly, it’s because the industry he’s in is fraught with them.

        6. To RRR:

          If you’re going to read “The Sociopath Next Door,” I also recommend “Without Conscience” by Dr. Robert Hare. Dr. Hare has studied psychopaths for many years and I believe he’s considered the leading expert on the subject. While he has written extensively for other mental health professionals, I think that “Without Conscience” is the only book he has written for laypeople.

          Both books are excellent and are worth taking a look at.

        7. Hippo – There’s an old book that has a wealth of information on the dynamics of sociopathic/psychopathic personality disorders, Lindner’s “Rebel Without A Cause,” which was one of the texts we studied in Navy Neuropsychiatric (NP) Tech school. In it, he discussed the challenge in clearly differentiating between the psychopath and the sociopath; where the classic psychopath lacks motivation/ability to effectively integrate with a social milieu, the sociopath perceives the necessity of such integration as a means of realizing his/her goals, and is typically quite adept at the process.

          Where I think that Ray might fall more within the sociopathic definition than the psychopathic is that he has obviously been quite effective at convincing significant numbers of people as to the efficacy of his claims and programs. If he is truly a psychopath, then his effectiveness would inherently be limited to individuals with sociopathic tendencies themselves (which is certainly possible to a limited degree, but I doubt that a significant percentage of his customers would fall within such a sweeping categorization). While it may well be true that a significant percentage of Ray’s customers might exhibit some narcissistic tendencies, those tendencies are somewhat indigenous to and supported by the New Age mindset. Given that environment, one would be hard-pressed to reasonably claim that the narcissistic tendencies rise to the level of antisocial personality disorders.

          As an aside, I think that the public has been done a disservice by the elimination of both psychopath and sociopath diagnoses and replacement with the blanket “antisocial personality” definition listed in post DSM-II editions. Might make matters simpler for documentation by diagnosticians, but serves to muddy the waters for administrative and “treatment” (typically – and appropriately – within the criminal justice system, rather than the healthcare system) efforts, not to mention understanding by laypersons. Come to think of it, though, the psychiatric community as a whole has historically been less than enthusiastic about fully educating the general public as to the workings of their profession.

        8. To RRR:

          Thank you for your comments. I don’t have a mental health professional background, and academic texts are too hard for me to read.

          If it’s not written in plain English, I have a difficult time with it.

          I may have mentioned on another thread that I attended a “Lifespring” workshop back in 1982. While perusing Rick Ross’s site, I was delighted to come across an article entitled “Pathology As Personal Growth,” written by two psychologists who attended the same event (although not the same one that I was at). I was frustrated, however, because it was written by shrinks for other shrinks, and I could not understand a good deal of it. Unfortunately, there would not be enough public interest in this topic to re-write it in an easier-to-read format.

          However, I understood enough of it to get the gist: Lifespring is full of shit.

        9. He’s arrogant enough to believe he can say anything and get away with it and he’s also likely having a psychotic break due to the stress of being locked up and investigated. So all that buried self-loathing and anxiety he’s covered up by sucking others dry may well be surfacing and he’s fighting it by grandiose blabbering.

          Or not….

          I once took down a then fairly prominent NLP trainer and chased him off the internet and nearly out of business for about 5 years. He had a complete psychotic break. About a year and half ago he was arrested and charged with sexually molesting his minor-age “clients” and is facing life in prison.

          Looks just like Ray Ray…btw his name is Carmine Baffa.

          1. @RJ ::

            Gross!! And let me guess … it’s a fake PhD?

            That’s the same county as the StomperNet lawsuits. Maybe he and are Fallon chums.

        10. I personally hope that Death Ray can stave off his possible psychotic break until after his trial and conviction.

          I’m sure that US prisons do a roaring trade in anti-psychotic meds.

      5. SD said: “he’s all psychopath”

        And to add to that…

        Yakaru – you said: “Normal people just don’t want to feel the kind of feelings that are a healthy and appropriate response to a psycho like him.”

        Guys like Ray have no empathy in my opinion. They understand mechanics of setting a sequence of communications that trigger another human being into ending up with less money…but with little regard for the outcome after they have the cash.

        If you knew all the manipulative mechanics some of these guys use you wouldn’t feel much for any of them. They’re purposely manipulating human tendencies, whether physical or emotional, without any empathy for the receiving human on the other end. The game to them is simply to ‘manipulate emotions’, whether through mental or physical means. (You can lump doctrine, sweat lodge, info product, seminar rooms, and any other means of manipulating emotions under the categories of mental and physical. I’m simplifying here for simplicity. The point is, it’s the emotions that move someone, and they know that full well. It’s not like they believe in any Spiritual or Indian customs. It’s a way of making people feel intense emotions physically. Period.)

        Most people don’t control and monitor their emotions 24/7. That’s probably a generalization, but consumerism suggests to me it’s not. In other words, we don’t monitor ourselves 24/7 and go: ‘Oh, I just saw some stimuli, had an emotion, and now I’m taking some behaviors [because of the emotional charge I’m feeling] that is causing me to send someone a chunk of my cash.” Think of something regular like some guy seeing a stimuli (fancy car), having an emotion (shame about his age or physical body etc), and taking some action (give money in exchange for the car to hide, in vein, the shame he feel about his physical body, aging, whatever).

        That is what it is. Fine.

        The difference with a guy like Ray or an IM’er is if they knew some person had a tendency toward the emotion of shame…do you think for a second they’d say: “I think you might be feeling shame about something, and it’s affecting your decisions. Do you want to talk about it?” Don’t make me laugh. Instead, they’ll apply mechanical persuasion to EXPLOIT this emotion and simply attach some solution to it in exchange for cash (and it doesn’t matter what the solution is, so long as the person feeling the shame thinks the solution is not that far of a stretch for getting rid of or getting more of the emotion. And that engineering of making sure the solution doesn’t seem that far fetched a solution is also mechanical.)

        They feel nothing. No empathy. The only real question is:

        “How do I make this person give me their cash? What tactics can I use to have this person part with their cash and stay with me to keep giving me their cash?”

        To repeat: Guys like Ray have no empathy in my opinion. They understand mechanics of setting a sequence of communications that trigger another human being into ending up with less money…but with little regard for the outcome after they have the cash.

        The mechanics used to induce such feelings are many. But to a guy like Ray, the more he has in the toolbox to use on people the better.

        They just don’t care/empathize.

        What empathy are WE supposed to feel for someone who is purely in this game to manipulate the cash out of people’s pockets? (and send them to their graves?!)

        1. Excellent points.

          But what makes Ray worse than the car salesman is that he’s not really selling anything of value.

          If you buy the car, you may suffer buyer’s remorse because you paid too much, or perhaps because the car isn’t practical. But you HAVE the car.

          If you buy into James Ray’s BS, you won’t get much of anything for your money; and if you complain, he’ll tell you that it’s YOUR fault because you’re “doing it wrong.”

          This is assuming that you don’t get maimed or killed.

        2. Mr Psychopaths,

          I’m going to print that out, laminate it and keep it with me at all times.

          I don’t think I have ever seen a better piece of advice, more concisely put.

          Now I’ve just got to remember to act on that advice by keeping an eye on my emotions whenever I am in a room with a ‘dodgy’ person, reading a piece of seductive copy on the interwebs or watching the idiot box.

          Thank you.

      6. Here is one excerpt from the link that Salty gave on Wickipedia, and I think it is very apropos
        “Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour “

        1. I have been to Schirmers seminars and I was told I was too negative the second I started to question things because my bullshit receptors were working overtime. Of course I no longer have anything to do with them because I have seen and heard too much. You begin to recognised things as a coverup and there does not appear to be much value in anything that these people say. It appears money for jam bullshit selling to see who can be the biggest betterest bullshitter of all time. And be remembered for it. Just depends how they want to be remembered by how they respond and so far so good, precious few have the qualities of someone who will be remembered for the good that they’ve done.

        2. Schimers twit page says “Just boarded John Wayne to Orlando via Atlanta for Tony Robbins UPW”

          The song “I JUST CANT GET ENOUGH, I JUST CANT GET ENOUGH” keeps playing in my head now damn it.

          The guy must be going for a firewalk record after saying he’s been 8 times on one of his drivel blogs. I bet he’d love to know how Robbins keeps him sucked in. Doh, might have something to do with the fact that he’s a short fat dishonest ugly lying con d-bag but not saying Robbins is such eye candy either just way better than that little guy.

          Would that be considered an obsession or a love affair?

          Maybe he’s got little mans syndrome?

          or ….

  8. I can’t disagree with that, Hippo. I’m certain that many people would love to see him institutionalized and even lobotomized. I, for one, would like more than anything to see him and his ilk put out of business – not as the result of legal action (though a bit of that would be quite appropriate, IMO), but by his prospective “customers” becoming too well-educated and sophisticated to fall for the hustledorks’ gambits. Educating the idiots is always more effective in the long run than attempting to idiot-proof the system.

    1. To RRR:

      I think your idea is excellent; however, I can’t imagine being able to educate everyone well enough to not fall prey to these types of people.

      Ray needs to be locked up, with NO access to Twitter or any other way to dis-seminate his “teachings.” Depending on how dangerous he is, I’m not even sure he should be in the general prison population. Highly manipulative people have been able to cause a lot of trouble by coaxing fellow inmates to ask people on the outside to do various things.

      1. @Hippo,

        A nice big trial of Death Ray with lots of tabloid coverage and a conviction will alert most that all is not well in seminar-land.

        The more interested will do some research.

        The most interested will take a look at the whole damn mess of con-men and how they manage to get away with it, as we are doing here.

        One of the things that most motivates people to educate themselves is getting conned by a scammer and resolving not to be such an easy mark next time. It will happen to most of us at some time, the canny ones will look at how they can protect themselves.

        Whats here will always be here.

        I’d trot out that old saw “You can lead a horse to water…” right now but I prefer Dorothy Parker’s version:

        “You can drag a horticulture, but you can’t make her think.” ;-)

        1. @stoic,

          I’m hopeful that there will be a big trial with lots of fireworks.

          I forgot who it was who said that “sunshine is the best disinfectant.” (probably not Dorothy Parker)

    2. @RevRonRants, I genuinely do like the sentiment, but it’s not entirely practical.

      I worked for a bank for a while (no jokes about bonuses please – I certainly didn’t get any!) and was astonished at the quantity of fraud cases where the customer had voluntarily given away their PIN number. We’d send them tons of letters saying, in essence: “Never give this number to anyone! Never write it down! We’ll never ask you for it!” And yet we’d continually hear about customers ‘panicking’ when a very respectable young man phones from the bank to “Confirm some details with them”

      The thing is – these customers were educated, sensible people. I’d routinely hear them say things like “That was so stupid, wasn’t it” “I can’t believe I told him that” etc, etc. They knew that they shouldn’t be giving away the PIN, but in the heat of the moment, and under the influence of someone who could effectively manipulate their emotions, they did. In doing so, they fell for the oldest, most well-known, and uncomplicated financial fraud in the book. Why?

      Education is a good thing, and by sending out those letters we certainly did reduce fraud to some extent. But professional conmen rely on exploiting emotions, not thoughts, and it’s overly optimistic to believe that we can educate our way around that. We are all vulnerable on some emotional front, and there are plenty of experts out there looking for a way to exploit that. It’s their life’s work – finding the right buttons to push in each and every situation; so every time you educate a customer about one scam, a new one is already being devised and put into action.

      So in short, an educated human is still a human. Perhaps in the next 100 million years we’ll evolve enough not to fall for this kind of thing any more, but until then, we’ll most certainly need aggressive, robust legal action against JAR and his ilk.

      1. @208-577-6210, I have to agree that it’s unlikely that all potential marks could ever be given both the knowledge and sophistication necessary to avoid falling for people like Ray. Even among the educated, there will always be the stupid and/or vulnerable. We can’t effectively idiot-proof a system (as has been repeatedly proven), we can’t eliminate idiocy (as is continually re-proven), we can’t legislate integrity (especially with our legislators), and we can’t manage to control or even reach consensus on the identities of the sociopaths, snake-oil salesmen, and other scammers.

        Realizing the inviability of each individual solution to the problem, the only realistic solution is a combination of all of them. I lean toward favoring a fairly light but clear legislative hand, where it is made clear that fraud and damaging behavior is not tolerated (even from large contributors). The continued efforts to point out that these emperors are naked are probably the most effective means of de-stupidifying the public. It won’t happen on blogs, but I do believe that the noise level on these forums has risen to the point where the mainstream media has no choice but to look at the industry more critically. As more reports point to the damage being done in the name of “self-help,” perhaps even old “Joe Six pack (of healing water, of course)” might begin to get a clue. I mean, after all, if they say it on the tee vee…

        At that point, our elected officials will begin their collective harrumphing, each scrambling to prove that he or she had the first dog in the hunt for hustledorks. Speeches will be made, legislation will be sponsored and written, subsequently watered down to the point where it does little more than fill a few hundred pages on the congressional record.

        Hmmm… the more I look at it, the more I ask myself if it wouldn’t be easier to just open season on the scammers and set a reasonable bag limit. But then, we’d end up with yet another cottage industry…

        Don’t mind me… I’m in my cynical phase right now.

  9. hey, I don’t want to love my enemies, I want them to go to jail and be punished if they have hurt people.
    you don’t have to hate your enemies and you don’t have to love the bastards either. just have society hold them accountable and lock them up for a long time or for life. some people need to be locked up as all they understand is fear and power. its a little thing called crime and punishment.

    cults and sex and slaves, you know that some cults do use sex and slaves, sometimes together. the cult guru sets up a bunch of women to work for him, and has sex with any of them he likes. so its not an academic discussion it does happen quite a bit.
    cults are about a leader getting what they want, and that is often not just money and power, but sex too. running a new age cult is a perfect job for a psychopath.

    ray is just pretending to be a preacher shaman of the new age, as that is what he’ll say in court, why his church of the white shaman was doing the sweatlodge and other weird stuff and just say its religion so they can do whatever the fuck they want
    james god ray can do anything he wants just try to stop him

    1. It’s all a bullshit facade to get what they want. You’re also correct that it may not be about money necessarily, but could also involve many other things.

  10. the save the whales people disrupt the japanese whalers, they follow them, boycott them, throw stink bombs on their ships, even ram the ships sometimes

    hey, whales are delicious, but how about save the humans?
    if someone can find out about any death ray seminars, there is no reason those seminars can’t be legally disrupted and even cancelled by contacting the location and local tv station
    people inside the seminar can disrupt the seminar using the same tactics being used.
    its also a cool hobby to disrupt any type of scammy seminar, but watch out for someone throwing a punch at your head
    its time for the sheeple to stand up and kick some ass with organized direct action
    then big fat crooks like joe vitale will have to cut back on the sirloin and eat some rice and beans and get a job.

    (sung to the tune of Who’s afraid of the big bad wolf?)
    joe vitale’s a big fat crook, a big fat crook, a big fat crook.
    joe vitale’s a big fat crook, a big fat slimey crook

  11. SD, you may well be correct in defining him as more of a psychopath than a sociopath. I hadn’t been at all familiar with Ray prior to the Death Lodge, and therefore can’t speak to his functionality, which is where the differentiation between the two actually lies.

    As to the viability of launching an insanity defense at this point, I’m no attorney, and will take your word on that. Whatever he’s doing, it will be satisfying to see him stopped. Perhaps he’ll be able to start a micro-cult with his new roomie. Perhaps call it Fist?? :-)

    (Sorry… not a pleasant visual)

  12. T Harv Eker must have laughed his ass off for days after the shit hit the fan for Ray. Here’s why. Ray basically stole all his courses from Eker and then just doubled the price. I know this because I have taken Eker’s courses and looked long and carefully at Ray’s. It’s the same stuff at twice the price. Or it was until Ray’s misfortune.

    1. The more you see of this stuff the more you realise that the content of the ‘courses’ doesn’t matter, all these guys are teaching the same thing, regardless of what the course is called.
      They are teaching us to be quiet, amenable mugs who willingly hand over our cash for a lot of hot air. And then they expect us to proselytise and drag in more mugs for them to fleece.

      I’m feeling quite biblical, something about selling your birthright for a mess of pottage?,77450,page=76

      1. Says Stoic, “They are teaching us to be quiet, amenable mugs who willingly hand over our cash for a lot of hot air. And then they expect us to proselytise and drag in more mugs for them to fleece.”

        Amen. Stoic, I have to say you are one of the most eloquent (and concise) commenters here and on the Rick Ross forum. I even quoted you on my recent “Saturday Snippets” blog post.

        Looking at the discussion on this thread and others on Salty’s blog — as well as the discussions on the RR forums and SHAMblog, for that matter — I find it hard to believe that some people are still so clueless about what drives us “critics.” Here’s another example of that cluelessness (thanks to Burned By Fire’s tweet for leading me to this):

        1. What psychological forces could be at work to cause Jeanette to post such cluelessness?


          – denial (how do you do a 180 degree shift and critically look at something you wish wasn’t occurring? Painfully. That’s how. Too painful to think the industry and people you follow are causing problems, so psychological denial kicks in)
          – commitment and consistency (she’s been an IM’er for how long? And is connected with who? Commitment wouldn’t be a large part of the ongoing clueless posts she has would it? Nah. Better DENY that.)
          – incentive (making your living from something just creates an possible incentive bias)

          …the list goes on.

          Just my opinion but my point is that a bunch of psychological forces are working in unison to keep such cluelessness abound.

          And who’s going to admit that they are under the influence of natural human tendencies that any normal human has, but can bring about some ‘interesting’ results?

          We all have a reaction of denial sitting latent, me included. It’s just a natural human thing. We seem to naturally deny things when they’re too painful to face. But when such a reaction takes over in a dangerous situation causing more cluelessness to be spread, why not question it?

      2. “the content of the ‘courses’ doesn’t matter, all these guys are teaching the same thing, regardless of what the course is called.”

        Dan Kennedy would say what’s the difference between Zig Ziglar and Les Brown? He said if you took out the personal stories and simply stripped away everything until you were left with simply the pure content, you wouldn’t be able to tell who’s content is whose.

        The difference between Zig Ziglar and Les Brown is Target Market. Les Brown is favoured by black audiences in certain states, while Zig attacks a market that is mostly white, christian, etc (I forget the specifics, but the point is the same).

        Even T Harv Eker teaches people how to wrap up their content inside things people REALLY want: money, physical results, etc

        I find it hard to believe that anyone (except the followers) really care about the content (or even focus on it much in way except to use it as a mechanism to manipulate the audience).

        Political candidates essentially deal with the same ‘stuff’ or issues. But the one on the left caters to a specific audience using ideological overlap, and the one on the right caters to a different segment. Same with self-help speakers.

        Nevermind the widespread use of the ‘common enemy’ idea. There’s always a common enemy (any good cult has one). What I find particularly disturbing is how the common enemy in self-help always seems to be INTERNAL. Maybe it is. Maybe someone actually has a problem internally. But it seems to rarely be the case that anyone EXCEPT YOU (the seminar goer/guru follower) is ever at cause for anything. And if something is uncontrollable, well shit…it’s just that you aren’t controlling your emotions! Not that emotions are, oh I don’t know, NORMAL!? Then let’s just coat a layer of mantra and affirmation over your negative emotions! It’s not like emotions have evolved over a little while or anything. *rolls eyes*

        Really slick to move the ‘common enemy’ INTERNALLY.

        The point though is as you mentioned: the content is virtually the same. It’s simply tailored or styled for a specific market. Which talking puppet do you identify with and believe? This one, that one, the other one…have your choice…it’s all the same, but when we focus on the content it takes attention away from the important stuff going on.

        The content is very unimportant in my opinion and simply used as a tool to focus attention to a specific area (and away from another area, namely the meta level processes that are occurring). Again, in my opinion, human reaction is more important than content (keyword: REACTION)

        1. “What I find particularly disturbing is how the common enemy in self-help always seems to be INTERNAL.”

          And the External enemy is (SURPRISE) nay-sayers.

          How dare we talk about the tactics used by ‘gurus’ and we have ‘negative’ emotions!

          If we’re not with them, we MUST be against them! And that means we’re not part of the GROUP THINK! OH NOES!!11!

  13. For anyone wondering what the “self-help” movement could do to control itself and raise its standards, here’s a story from Germany:

    –Abuse of a title such as “Dr” carries a fine or up to one year’s imprisonment in Germany.–

    A bit over the top was a case last year where someone with a PhD from CalTec was investigated for referring to it on his business card. The university he taught at fully recognised it, but the law says to actually call yourself doctor, you have to have done your PhD in Germany. (Typical here – they get a good idea and then go totally off the deep end with it.)

    1. “A bit over the top was a case last year where someone with a PhD from CalTec was investigated for referring to it on his business card.”

      The base rule for degress in Germany is simply “You can only call yourself as it says on your degree certificate”. PhDs could call themselves PhD and Dr.s could call themselves Dr., but a PhD from the USA couldn’t call him/herself ‘Dr.’, because in Germany this was regarded as different certificates/degrees. This simple rule yielded bizarre results in the PhD/Dr. case, since both are actually very similar.
      The law was officially amended on May 15 2008, since then all Doctores from the USA as well as from Canada, Australia, Israel, and Japan (and most from Russia) are officially recognized as Dr., even if they received a PhD.


    2. @Yakaru Thank you for that article. So many people seem up-in-arms about holding people accountable in the self-help industry. I feel credentials and background checks matter for people who give advice that affects lives.

      I’m not in favor of censorship,just feel everyone must produce proof of credentials. Even if they are degreed,they should not be able to claim they’re an expert in their field.Case in point, that “physicist” from The Secret,Dr. Fred Alan Wolf,is considered a complete wacko by most physicists.And Bruce Lipton is NOT respected in the field of molecular biology.

      James Ray wasn’t smart enough to complete a 2yr associate’s degree!In the few videos I’ve watched,he ridicules education and educated people repeatedly.(A detail Oprah overlooked.)But what can you expect from a guy who also calls Christ,Buddha,Gandhi,Mother Teresa,”Cosmic Foo Foos”?

      1. Thanks for the clarification, Frank.

        In any case, Dr Bob Procter, Dr Joe Vitale, Dr John Gray and all the others who obtained a degree from an unaccredited institution would be locked up if they tried pulling that stunt here.

        That’s at least one thing that Philosopher James Ray wouldn’t be convicted of.

        I’m all in favor of on the job experience being more highly valued than in it is some professions, and to be paid accordingly, but being able to call yourself a doctor when you’re not, not only builds oneself up, it also devalues people with a real PhD.

        1. Good points, Yak. One minor thing: I don’t think Bob Proctor calls himself “Doctor,” although “Doctor Proctor” does have kind of a ring to it.

        2. Connie, you’re right (of course!). Dr Bob sounds alright too – wasn’t that one of the muppets?

          Bob, if you’re reading this, I unreservedly apologize for calling you a fake doctor. Scrub that from the list of all the things I’ve called you over the years, ok?

    3. @Yakaru ::

      That’s interesting. But a rule like that would be really hard to swing in the U.S. for free speech reasons. And like you already mentioned :: Death Ray wasn’t using that particular tactic :: and in fact took up an anti-education posture.

      IM D-bag Frank Kern is a smart guy :: but he parades himself around like he’s a mentally deficient slacker. Perry Belcher used the fact the he was a High School drop out as a selling point :: while also being no where near as stupid as he lead people to believe. Being fake dumb is almost more dangerous than being fake smart.

      There are a thousand ways to build up false credibility. Bogus degrees :: twitter followers :: youtube views :: false testimonials :: inflated earnings claims :: criminal circle jerks :: etc etc. Most of these scum bags are using a combination of them. If you specifically outlawed a couple of them … they’d just shift to the others.

      IMO :: there are already enough laws on the books to charge :: arrest :: and convict all of these d-bags. You CAN’T use fraud and misrepresentation to sell shit. What we need is ENFORCEMENT :: desperately!

      There are some changes we could make to the laws that would help :: like a set of modern cyberlaws that are future looking … instead of based in the Iron Age. But none of it will matter as long as all the enforcers are sitting on their hands.

    1. Whoa…wait a minute. Do the new FTC regulations apply to the sort of “advertisement” that is presented on that website? Just curious, as Ray appears to be making quite a few grandiose and flagrantly unsubstantiable claims…
      (Also, there’s a troubling similarity between the testimonial provided by a “Scott Hughes” and a previous one that was provided by Josh Frederickson.)
      Moreover, several of his statements directly conflict with the statements presented on his behalf in court (and in the media); is there any potential for legal ramifications, here?

      1. Josh must be back at work as that page has been updated (and not the automatic date-changer) since I tried to register a few days ago.

  14. “You’re getting into stuff I didn’t want to talk…” – Guy getting choked up, 2 minutes in

    I could only watch 2 minutes in (to where the crowd starts encouraging the guy) without getting repulsed:



    1. Why don’t you shut the f— up Ugly Ass Ray! You are not a therapist and have no business dealing with people’s emotions. You’re the one who needs therapy with someone licensed.Oh wait,you’re going to prison…too late :{

    2. @I think Im gonna puke…,

      “Steve, is it okay if I touch you? (throwing up in my mouth)

      I think Death Ray gave everyone the mental herpes in that audience.

      God, the manipulation.

  15. I think the main difference between sociopath and psychopath is that the psychopath has poor impulse control. Sociopaths can control themselves when they perceive it fits their purposes. Psychopaths also tend to be poorly organized.

    A sociopath can be the CEO of a major international corporation and function just fine in his role, because the business culture rewards him. A psychopath would lose control of himself at the first provocation.

    Ray’s a sociopath, with some incipient psychosis probably running in the backround.

    Just my 2 cents…


    1. Read the book WORKING WITH MONSTERS it explains it all and if you are like me you are shocked at how closely these people fit into the category of sociopath and pyschopath. Always good to educate yourself agaist sleazebag dogooders or wolves in sheeps clothing as some might relate to.

  16. Ross – The main reason you wouldn’t ever see a psychopath as CEO of an organization is that adult individuals for whom that diagnosis is applicable are rarely found outside the criminal justice system. The occurrence of a true “psychopath” is extremely rare… well, except in horror films. In the vast majority of cases, what most people describe as a psychopath is actually either a sociopath who screws up or a psychotic individual whose behavior is a response to delusional stimuli. (My suspicion is that the term was abandoned in the DSM primarily because it was so narrowly applicable, and served little use beyond journalistic sensationalism.)

    I’d tend to agree that Ray’s behavior seems consistent with that typically seen in a sociopath (antisocial personality in current terminology), but can’t really say for certain whether his apparent grandiosity is a manifestation of psychosis or his inability to accept that his actions would have personal repercussions. To borrow one of Harrison Ford’s lines in “Sabrina,” when his wealthy, powerful character was asked how he could do something particularly cruel, his response was, “Habit!”

    Truth is, we may never know what actually drives Ray. The only ones qualified to make that determination will be the psychiatrists who actually evaluate him (if his case even goes that far), and you can be certain that both sides will have very convincing experts arguing for diametrically opposed theories. The final result will likely be the theory posited by the most expensive “expert.”

    1. “Habit!”

      To me that makes the most sense of all. Death Ray is doing what he has always done, the only thing he really knows how to do, the thing that he has always found worked well for him in the past.

      To have aquired the skills he has undoubtedly aquired and to channel those skills into the enterprise he has created must have taken a singularly one-track thinking process, pure will-to-power, what all those goal getting courses promote. Poor Nietzsche discovered the outcome of that despite his prodigious intellect.

      JAR tells us that himself: Balance is Bogus.

      To mangle a metaphor, changing horses in mid-stream is a useful skill to practice.

  17. what book if James Ray reading and repeating on his twitter. It makes no sense and appears delusional. what is the purpose of posting quotes out of someone elses book all the time? probably makes him feel good and shuts the people up who are hanging on his comments to have a good day, no to have a ay at all. Weird

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