165 Comments »

mikefilsaimeinder said:
right before I read you today I saw this
sick, and then it was funny when she asked them if they wanted her to go on speaking at the mikey launch tree and while she did she touched her head and hair showing she was uncertain and nervous. At their core all of these people are the same.
mikey crush
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs021.snc1/2379_1119635631611_1248647906_30360776_343233_n.jpg
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[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:10 pm
@Insider ::
Embed Youtube videos like so :: httpv://youtube
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Clucky McDucky Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 10:32 pm
That’s a funny pic. Has a great big smile on his aging face (look at this girl I could never get standing really close to me for her own promotional purposes). Notice that he has one arm “somewhat” around her with clenched fist, not a confident grasp. Tentative, meek, geek. Might as well be a buddy shot with John Reese or Frank Kern or whoever.
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# 28 February 2010 at 5:47 am

mikefilsaimeinder said:
this is the video I was do not know how to make it just be in here:
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Cosmic Connie Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
She lost me at “authentic.” Rolling my eyes…
WINNER!! ::   +10
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Rafael Marquez Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
I guess grabbing an audio feed from the room audio system for the camera was out of the question… I would imagine a video marketing queen would know that sound makes or breaks a video. Not like I’d care to know what she’s saying, it would just make a better video.
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Burpin Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
She lost me at, “really, like.” For sure. You know?
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Sabrina Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
OMG what a joke! Authentic? Pay her mortgage on her tiny apartment rental?
  +6
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Wonky Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
She lives in tiny shoebox in a converted motel. Impressive, huh? That’s “success!”
  +6
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Gotta Be Kidding Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
How freaking embarrassing. That video made me squirm for her, and I don’t even have any sympathy for her.
  +5
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_cartman_ Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:10 am
that event was a year ago (a grate voice even then)…and she is just now uploading and tweeting it…crazy….that video is from Sylver’s March 8th 2009 event (date proof below…watch at your own risk)….
http://twitter.com/mariaandros/status/9561221888
ahhh….okay….it makes sense now….she is “underground” (just like the lepercons) creating her next “new” “program”….& using her tweets in an attempt to reestablish her expertease and grandiose lifestyle…posting an old vacation photo here, a limo ride there (from the red carpet video shoot), talking about her X5, re-buttering up Mike Fleecme (and a few others) in hopes of future reciprocation….
If you still have doubts about how grate she is (by those subtleties)…wander no more….she is now claiming to be in the top 1% income earners (over $250K/yr…nothing new there, she has claimed that even in her myspace page, and her last log-in was Oct ’07…so she apparently earned $250K+ yr and forgot…it happens)…and when she “remembered”, she was deeply humbled and embarrassed (thousands an hour, and she doesn’t even understand what humbled means…)
Education: Grad / professional school
Income: $250,000 and Higher
http://www.myspace.com/angelsglow77
hey….lookie there..who’d a guessed Andros had a masters or PhD…now..now…in all fairness…she saw the term professional…and just assumed since she went to “professional make-up school” it meant the same thing…..the “grad/” was not a tip off to much higher education then she is accustomed to…see Andros…I stood up for ewe!…I’m nice!
“Congrats to the US for winning a silver medal in Hockey (Canada & US are my two favorite home countries) since I now live in the US :)” -Maria Andros
http://twitter.com/mariaandros/status/9549036426
ummm….huh????…..someone may want to explain to her that technically a “home country” is where a person is born…not where they presently “reside”…
sing….
You can tell I’m educated, I studied at the Sorbonne…
Doctored in mathematics, I could have been a don….
I can program a computer, choose the perfect time….
If you’ve got the inclination, I’ve got the crime….
Aaaah ah ah ah ah aaaah..do…do…
Money (Money)….Di du da di da bu di ba…Money….
question: To be a registered agent for service of process for a US corporation (incorporated in the state of California), does one have to be a permanent resident of the USA (or maintain resident alien status), to maintain such a position?
Disclaimer: Lyrics borrowed directly from the pet shop boys (opportunities). Any intention to make Andros look foolish is purely incidental. The resident bimbecile was not harmed in the making of this post.
WINNER!! ::   +13
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Sabrina Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 4:43 pm
How is she living/working in the US? Immigration anyone?
WINNER!! ::   +7
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_cartman_ Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Good call…
I was thinking the exact same thing. She must be telling immigration she is just going on vacation. The corporation is registered in California, but I highly doubt that she declares she is working in the US, she would require a Visa, even though the corporation can Conduct business, the employees would have to be American, or be legally able to work in the USA.
She recently changed the “registered agent for service” from the company that incorporated the entity to herself.
My guess, without seeing the structure, is she is just not declaring she is working in the USA, and pays herself from the company, which would be totally illegal…
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Sabrina Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Cartman, you can do a declaration upon entry into the US. But given her exits from the country, it would be more than tricky. If she limits her time in US to under 6 months per year, she may just be under the radar. She’s not a very good liar as evidenced from her videos so I’m not sure how she’d pull off fooling customs.
Interesting on the change of registered agent for service. That is really exposing herself if she doesn’t have legal right to be in the country on a permanent basis.
Is it a CA corp? If so, isn’t it required that primary owners give have their information on record?
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_cartman_ Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:43 am
Yup…a CA corporation (information appended below). I found it strange too, unless she is trying to avoid legal service. Last month when I checked, it was still the incorporating company as the registered agent, so this happened within the last 4-6 weeks (the address being used is the “virtual office…but different floor and suite then she was originally using). If it was on the anniversary date of the incorporation, I would assume that she didn’t want to pay for the service anymore, but in the middle of the year…it doesn’t make any sense.
When she entered the US, I guess she could have said she is staying a week or two (and then just stay longer). AFAIK Canada doesn’t know when a Canadian leaves, and the US doesn’t know when a Canadian goes back (and vice versa…but I can’t be sure if that is still the case (since passports are now used). I believe my cousin’s friend works for Canadian immigration….I will ask her if the databases are “linked” and report back in a few days..unless someone here knows for sure…
If Andros says she is staying a few months or more, then she would probably have a barrage of questions asked (like employment, positions, funds on hand, etc. We said three weeks once and they asked about employment, position, location, where we were staying, how it was paid, how I could afford to take so much time off, etc). I can only imagine what they would ask if someone stated 5 or 6 months. I mean a make-up artist could easily work under the table, so they would be highly suspicious.
Maybe she did stay more then 6 months, which is why she never went back to Canada (at least that is her claim), this past Christmas season. Maybe she’s an illegal alien…
One would probably have to be a lawyer with the dept of justice to confirm that kind of information, and to find out if Andros is in the US legally or not, and/or working there legally (which is most definitely not the case) and knock out one internet fraudster out of the picture.
Entity Name: VIDEO MARKETING QUEEN INC.
Entity Number: C3103740
Date Filed: 06/05/2008
Status: ACTIVE
Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA
Entity Address: 499 NORTH CANON DRIVE 4TH FLOOR
Entity City, State, Zip: BEVERLY HILLS CA 90210
Agent for Service of Process: MARIA ANDROS
Agent Address: 499 NORTH CANON DRIVE 4TH FLOOR
Agent City, State, Zip: BEVERLY HILLS CA 90210
http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/cbs.aspx
  +4
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Carl Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:55 am
She just loves those Beverly Hills addresses, doesn’t she? Gotta keep up ‘dem appearances.
  +4
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Rafael Marquez Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:30 am
Looks like the virtual office can be on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th floor. It’s pretty affordable too, only $275 a month under a “Platinum package.”
http://www.abcnvirtual.com/center-information.php?cid=104&zone=US
For an additional $20 a month, she can get her mail forwarded to her weekly via us mail
http://www.abcnvirtual.com/mail-forwarding-options.php
So, she can have the company with an address in Beverly Hills and just pop in to the country for a couple of weeks at a time to film a video and still live in Vancouver or where ever it is. She wouldn’t be breaking any laws, technically, in my “I’m not a lawyer” opinion.
  +6
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Sabrina Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Cartman, thanks… I am actually Canadian. I’m not sure if the databases are linked but I do know that the US seems to know how long I was actually there after my last trip. Passports are scanned upon entry by US immigration and Canadian immigration upon return.
Whether or not she returned to Canada since she relocated, I am not sure but I do know she has left the US so she’d have had to pass through US customs to go back.
  +3
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Lancelot Link Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:33 pm
That’s pretty cool, Rafael. I’m surprised she didn’t choose all *3* floors (to impress). You know, like: Andros Industries, Floors 1,2,&3…!
  +2
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Nikki Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 11:01 am
I thought I’d look at the MySpace page for a little light entertainment…here’s my chosen gem (and then I had to stop reading as my eyes were throwing themselves out of their sockets)…
“My Boss was also older than me and obviously intimidated by my Sparkling Personality and Youthful Energy….so she tried to make my life difficult! and did a pretty good job of it I must admit but I am not the revenge type and did not want to play dirty like she did.”
Riiiggghhhttt.
  +5
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208-577-6210 Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Hadn’t seen this page before, but it’s jaw-droppingly stupid and dishonest.
There might be hope for her yet though, as I identified a rare glimmer of honesty from the wurld’s fourmost traffic xpert. How has Maria been ‘gaining massive exposure’, ‘driving traffic’ and ‘exploding business?’
“…It’s Crazy as I do not have a clue how you found me or got to this page but I believe there are no coincidences in life.”
Wow! Where do I send the cheque?
  +3
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Wyrd Reply:
May 14th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
@mikefilsaimeinder,
“People love buying, but they hate being sold.” — one of the sales managers I once had when I worked “for”(with) the Southwestern Company.
So… sales. marketing. Poor sales, poor marketing.
The way to be the best possible salesperson is: to not be a salesperson. But if you’re entire job is to sell, and you only get paid on commission, then how do you sell and not be a salesperson?
Oh, wait–I know! Lie!
It’s not just price fixing–it’s more like lowest-common-denominator-fixing. If everyone else is doing it (whatever the “it” is), and you try to play in the same group, but not do it the obviously immoral way that they do it, how long will you last?
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  0
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 5:48 am

Sheepson id#43 said:
::: Freedom’s Just Another Word, for Being Confused :::
Judge: “You can’t post bail? How much did you spend in legal?”
Ray: “$1 million retainer, all my liquid assets.”
Judge: “How much did you spend on PR?”
Ray: “$500k, also all my liquid assets.”
Judge: “How much did you spend on helping the victims families travel to the hospitals?”
Ray: “Nothing, I had no liquid assets.”
Judge: “How much money did you spend helping the victims? Did you cover the victim’s families’ travel costs?”
Ray: “I MYSELF made a partial exception to our no refund policy to give a half refund to one of the families, a full 4500 dollars!”
Judge: “So you spent $1,500,000.00 million covering yourself, and $4500 helping others?”
Ray: “No, I MYSELF and JRI spent NOTHING helping anyone, the $4500 was a partial refund because the deceased couldn’t complete the workshop.”
Judge: “You mean to tell me you spent $1,500,000 million dollars on yourself and couldn’t afford $700 bucks to help the families’ travel to the hospital?”
Ray: “We didn’t even the identify the victims to the hospital! It would be impossible for me to know the families would come looking for them. I was very busy hiring lawyers and PR people, that took all of my attention and money.”
Judge: “Money talks Mr. Ray. $4500 is .003 parts of $1.5 million. Your life is 99.997 parts about you, and .003 parts about others. Based on those numbers, numbers you YOURSELF provided, you are a ‘Sociopath’ by definition, this unprecedented level of self absorption makes you a clear and present danger to society, your request for bail of any kind is denied altogether.”
But that’s not how it went is it? The numbers are the same, but the outcome was the opposite… This has caused Gamblers to revise their position:
From Fibbianoften Gamblers Forum 2.26.10@6pm:
“After the decisive beat down handed out by JRI, bookmakers have revised the odds – Odds as of February 26th are now 3:1 in favor of Ray.” (pays out 30 cents on the dollar if Ray wins)
Marc Fibbianoften, siteowner and famous Vegas Oddsmaker, said friday night: “The Arizona District Attorney is Woefully Unprepared, Outmatched, OutGunned, Outpaced Small Town Laywer. With so much material evidence destroyed and such a weak opponent, the Los Angeleans will now look for a full dismissal of the case. Dismissal is my recommended bet and nows pays out at even odds. Looks like this one’s gonna be worse than Tyson-Spinx folks. The Arizonians didn’t even stand strong through the weigh in! Seriously, this dude Ray spent $1,500,000 defending himself and $4500 on his victims, what rational court rewards that sort of behavior? Look for the early dismissal… You heard it here first.”
TL/DR: James Ray:1, Arizona Superior Court:0
hmmm…
WINNER!! ::   +16
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Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 9:30 am
I believe I have a small correction.
James Ray did send $4500 to Kirby Brown’s mother, Virginia.
But Mrs. Brown didn’t cash the check.
So he spent NOTHING on the victims, 100% on himself.
WINNER!! ::   +11
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TSarten Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Some people look into the great abyss and see the pain and suffering they have caused others and fall to their knees in shame and repentance.
Some people look into the great abyss and see absolutely nothing. They keep the delusional self-talk going in their head. They are the ones that come home from jail and start blabbering about darkness, light and dancing fairies.
I hope the jury sends this joker to prison for life.
WINNER!! ::   +8
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Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 1:43 pm
I’m still waiting for my $2 sympathy card from him.
WINNER!! ::   +7
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Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 1:49 pm
And the saddest part is, we found a nice hand written birthday card from my Mom addressed to James Ray, ready to be mailed to him for his birthday.
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Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 1:58 pm
…and knowing what I know now, I almost wish I would have sent it to him with her name crossed out and replaced with Jane Doe.
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AnnAustin Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 8:48 pm
Bryan–so sorry about the birthday card addressed and ready to go. It is always hard to go through your parents’ things, but that is really awful. I had a hard enough time and my parents’ deaths were natural and at much older ages. It is just impossible to imagine what you and your sister as well as James Shore’s and Kirby Brown’s families are going through.
  +5
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colleens brother in law Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:10 am
Hi Brian, the card was NOT all it is cracked up to be…..
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# 28 February 2010 at 9:20 am

Hippo said:
The Anticult commented on the Rick Ross forum that it was a shame that some of us saw Ray’s tweets as “crazy.” I was one of those people.
I am grateful for the explanation. I can’t imagine ever being deep enough into any cult that this kind of stuff would make sense to me. It’s terrifying, and I can’t begin to wrap my mind around it.
I have a deep admiration for The Anticult and others on the Rick Ross forum. I have been reading there for a couple of years but have never had the courage to apply for posting privileges since I am clearly out of my league intellectually.
Having said that, I’m going to stick with my original assessment about James Ray’s tweets.
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# 28 February 2010 at 9:24 am

noodlebowl said:
Hippo, please feel free to register and post on RR.com if you so desire.
Anticult is dumped on precisely because Anticult is one of the very few out there who can dissect the precise methods used.
At one point, on the Byron Katie thread, some tried to distract the correspondants from The Matter At Hand by suggesting that a cult of personality had formed around The Anticult.
Others like to throw sand in the gears by saying Rick Ross people are an anti-cult cult.
You do not have to be some kind of intellectual heavy weight to be welcome to post on RR.com.
Just abide by the terms of service and be a mensch (the kind of person you hope your kid will fall in love with)–and you’ll be fine.
  +3
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Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 10:53 am
To Noodle:
You know, it’s funny that you mentioned Byron Katie.
It’s one of the reasons I got intimidated.
I read her first book, “Loving What Is,” and listened to some CDs, and thought she was awesome.
Then I went to Rick Ross and read the posters saying things like, you can clearly see what she’s doing with NLP and the cockroach, etc., etc.
And I was horrified at myself. I couldn’t see ANY of that. I took Byron Katie at face value and liked her.
I began to wonder if I was retarded.
Terms of Service issues aren’t my problem; I have been around Mr. Salty’s site long enough that I think you can see that I’m not a troll; I’m not looking to cause trouble for anyone, I simply want to discuss the issues.
Having said that, I really don’t think I have anything to offer at Rick Ross. Most of the discussions are over my head.
But thank you for your kind comments.
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stoic Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:34 am
BK’s books are feel-good and would not give any clue to the hard-core persuasion and manipulation that is applied later as you progress down the LGAT funnel.
The posters on Rick Ross are people who have experienced the hard-core stuff and are trying to put it into context after the fact.
The insidious nature of this manipulation, and our natural tendency to trust other humans as reasonably decent, means that most are not aware of the con until after it has happened. If they are still in the orbit of the conman the con is ongoing.
The Rick Ross posters aren’t conducting an intellectual exercise, they are mostly trying to make sense of what they have experienced by looking at this manipulation (its always the same manipulation, just dressed up differently to suit the audience) in other outfits and slowly learning to recognise the con and how it works. We learn from each other.
You’re right that this is crazy stuff and no-one should need to get their head around it–but if you have been caught by such a con, and they are endemic now in our commercial world, you will soon realise that the only defense against being caught again and again is this self-education.
So kudos to Mr Salty for this site which is exposing the same con in internet marketing, and the Rick Ross site resources are truly awesome.
WINNER!! ::   +10
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Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
To Stoic:
I would add that it’s probably not necessary for those of us who are intellectually challenged to understand completely what these manipulators are doing.
It’s enough for me to know that they DON’T have our well-being in mind, and are trying to get either power, money, or both.
I have had to accept the fact that I don’t “get it” 100% and probably never will.
  +6
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Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:39 am
Don’t in anyway feel bad about it.
These kind of folks always throw out easy-to-swallow bait. And some of the bait might even be valuable, useable advice. That’s how they hook you.
It’s what they do to cause you to leap to deeper conclusions-that because their initial stuff is good that everything they say is fantastic and that they are unquestionable, unchallengeable, and total authorities, that is the actual danger.
They are exploiting a very human tendency-a desire to believe and to avoid the hard work of constant clear thinking and questioning. To be able to hold your agnosticism and say: “Hmmm, that seems true but THIS seems like bullshit. I buy that but what he just said is completely bullpatty” is a skill that has to be trained in.
I learned a lot about this by reading a book called “The Guru Papers: Masks Of Authoritarian Power”. You should read it too. It will open your eyes to this stuff.
RJ
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Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:52 am
To RJ:
Well, I understand about the bait–if the bait was no good, nobody would follow them. The bait has to be good.
I have heard the same about Scientology–that some of their beginner communication courses are quite useful.
Then we come to the incorrect conclusion that if the initial information is good/useful, more information will be even better.
And down the rabbit hole we go.
  +1
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TB Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:06 am
Link to some extracts from the Guru Papers:
http://www.minet.org/Documents/guru-papers.txt
Also, “The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer is probably also worth reading.
  +2
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# 28 February 2010 at 10:07 am

rox said:
I want to say this, a cult can be defined as vaguely as a group of people sharing the same beliefs that are different than the norm. That doesn’t make a cult automatically bad. So if you want to say being part of group of people who are leery of cults is a “cult” than you could be right if you have a vague definition of “cult” as a group of people with different beliefs than the norm.
What the Anti-cult forum does that is SO NEEDED is provide a safe place to watch the actions of cults and offer a sanctuary for people trying to get out and understand what happened and redefine their own belief system as they see fit.
Any group of people all encouraging each other to believe the same thing can become harmful and I like that many of the people and groups on “Cult watch” over there may or may not be defined as cults but they definitely have the power to be harmful.
I found the thread on Byron Katie to be so helpful since I had a therapist who was using “The Work” for the entire premise of her therapy and Ididn’t even know what it was! I found it really helpful to realize that there are others who found the work harmful and that I can say I disagree with that form of therapy which I felt like when I argued with it in therapy I was put down for not wanting to “fully heal” if I didn’t go along with and this is hard to deal with coming from a trusted professional.
So I don’t think the definition of “cult” vs “not cult” is as important to me as whether it’s harmful and people who want to get out of it are being told they need to “Grow into realizing it’s the right way” or that when they become more spiritually developed and ready to “see the truth” they will accept that belief system.
Those are really derogatory ways to keep a person tied into a belief system or “cult” that feels harmful to them.
It can happen in any area of life that belief systems are being pushed on people and “cults” are the most sinister way that groups of people shame others into staying and giving up their own power to define their own lives, beliefs, and selves.
I knew people outside of my therapist who really liked Byron Katie and before I found the Cult thread on her I felt like maybe I was just “fighting the truth”
I am so happy for the anti-cult forum!
LOL sorry that’s getting a little OT of the badness of James Ray.
He stinks! Creepy tweets! Thanks Salty!
WINNER!! ::   +8
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Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:05 am
To Rox:
I really identify with your post. I hope Mr. Salty will not mind if we veer off-topic slightly onto Byron Katie.
The thing is, I know a little bit about Byron Katie, and I really know nothing about James Ray.
However, I think the two have some things in common, so perhaps discussing Katie can be helpful.
I read on Rick Ross about how some of the Turnarounds can cause emotional problems for people because they blame themselves for things outside of their control, and they feel worse than they did before.
I think this is a very valid point, and maybe that’s how Katie keeps people coming back. You go to a seminar, you feel worse, so you think you need another seminar.
However, after tinkering around with Katie’s method, I have found that using just the first question is tremendously helpful. I was raised Catholic and was not taught anything about critical thinking as a young person.
I realize that this is a no-brainer for anyone who understands logic.
However, it was an eye-opener for me. So in that respect, I think that Katie has been helpful.
But I would not be caught dead signing up for a seminar.
  +3
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rox Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:39 am
Asking yourself the truth is always great. Having compassion for yourself and others and having forgiveness is also good.
In the ways that “The Work” can help people come closer to understanding themselves, it’s absolutely fine. The problem is the way the “Truth” is guided by Byron Katie. If you just read her book and say, “Oh let me ask myself the truth” you might come up with something different than what Katie would guide you to, which is always that you are the one at fault for whatever it is that you’re upset about.
A HUGE proportion of what we get upset about does have solutions that we can create ourselves. And I think this a great thing, to realize that he we have a great power to change our lives. It’s just that when applied to something like incest, saying, “I abused him” which Katie askes people to say while they cry and say “Oh I see how I was abusing him because I wanted him to love me.”
That kind of makes me vomit.
A child is never responsible for abuse. Period. Even if they go a long with it, they are not responsible for abuse. Even if they fail to report it or like getting attention from it, they are not responsible for abuse.
Considering that I was seeking help for abuse issues, this kind of therapy was so unbelievably bad for me. With little things I would think it was helpful and I was even willing to take responsibility for everything and think this made me more enlightened. See! It was all me! Aren’t I awesome for realizing that I made everything happen!
The way it translated into my life was devastating. If someone would insult me, you’re supposed to ask yourself if it’s the truth. So I was with someone that would insult me over and over again to the point they would get violent. And I would sit there thinking, “Oh well this is true, I do have that fault. I have that fault also”
Then in therapy it would be, “good for you for realizing these are your faults! Isn’t it better to see the truth?”
I took responsibility for everything.
I’m now going to have to go to therapy to heal from the therapy lol, much less figure out a different way to look at the issues I originally went to therapy for!
I kept thinking I just wasn’t doing “The Work” the right way and if I did I would be completely better. I was in this therapy for two years and I didn’t realize that she was just repeating everything Byron Katie says!
Blech.
I think like some people who’ve had bad experiences with Christianity it will always be hard to see the good in something that was really damaging. But I do see how asking yourself the truth is helpful.
I was going through really deep grief over something I won’t talk about here and of course I was told that it was “just my thoughts” and I needed to “not have my story.”
But I would argue, “But this IS the present. I am still experiencing this loss.”
It made me withdraw into myself and disconnect from all my emotions.
I was supposed to just realize that the loss wasn’t really a loss and all was as it should be. It’s hard to describe this while trying to keep some of it private, but the results of the two years were just terrible.
I can’t describe any more than that without just rambling about my own issues which I don’t want to do here, but I can say that I am really glad that many others found her “work” to be harmful for them.
I also can see how some people might see the four questions and in and of themselves it could be very eye opening.
The turn around just can’t be applied to all things and trying to use it like that can be devastating.
Byron Katie says a lot of scary things about how she would squeal with delight if Nazis burned her baby, she would throw her baby into the fire with glee over the joy of reality!
That is so disturbing.
WINNER!! ::   +9
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Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
To Rox:
Thank you for another excellent post.
I think that you have to be careful with regard to criticism from others.
I used to be married to someone who blamed me for everything since the sinking of the Titanic. One thing he did was to wait until I was “captive” in the car on a long drive, then start enumerating my faults to me.
Now, some of the things he brought up had validity. But he wasn’t trying to help me–he was trying to make me feel small so that he could control me, and so that he could feel superior by comparison.
So I learned to avoid these types of situations. It’s not that I don’t want to face “The Truth,” it’s that I didn’t have the stamina to deal with unnecessary and repeated criticisms.
I have found it much more helpful to do my OWN self-inventory–trying to be brutally honest, not going into denial, but not blaming myself for things that truly are not my fault, either.
I don’t agree with what you were told–when somebody insults you, they’re not trying to dispassionately tell you about your shortcomings. There’s some kind of manipulation going on there. So if you’re asked the question, “Don’t you want to know the truth about yourself?”, that’s really not dealing with the entire issue. The issue is two-fold: one, do you have a fault which you need to confront, and two, what is the agenda of the person talking to you? If they can get you to focus only on your “fault” issue, then you get distracted and completely miss what type of manipulation they are using.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Jamo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
The thing is Katie supposedly has no faults.
She is the only one who has “gotten there”….none of her followers have despite having been with her for many years.
That is a big red flag to me. Only the creator of the cult is one step above everybody else.
That being said, questioning the validity of some of my concepts has proven helpful to me.
  +2
[Reply]

reply Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 2:39 am
Rox:
Posts like yours make me very thankful for forums like RickRoss, Saltydroid etc No one should have to go through what you went (are going) through because of these self-aggrandizing sociopath.
And Jamo:
“Only the creator of the cult is one step above everybody else.”
Seems to be a trend ‘self-proclaimed leaders’ and self-aggrandizers like James Ray, Byron Katie, etc. have in common.
  +1
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:21 am
Your story is common. I too learned to take responsibility and went too far.
Byron Katie is an extremist. She has some good stuff, but takes it too far.
  +3
[Reply]

LiarCrusher Reply:
April 25th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
@rox
…and y’all in this train of comments…
Put No One on a pedestal…not even SD, not anyone…
and I think he’d agree…the real ones don’t do pedestals
or that “having people look up to them” thing. If they are
Real, as I have mentioned elsewhere, there’s humility present, not idol worship.
The world is FULL of people who want to control everyone
else in some way or another. A mentor I had at a very young
age said to me, “Everybody wants something from you.
Everybody. Even if it is only acknowledgement, attention,
or more. YOu have to guard your space, if you want to have
any of it for you and what you decide.”
Yes, I agree, we are human…fallible, gullible, believing, trusting…that is what is Beautiful about us…
That is what gets turned against us…
Still, we TEACH people how to treat us. I may be your best
friend int he world and do anything for you…right up until the moment you try to put a knife in my back…then it’s a whole new ball game…Immediately.
Like the dorkbrain Bush said, “Fool me once…’ {still one
of the funniest moments I have ever seen in my life…
I knew the second those three words fell out of his mouth
that he was Lost…the rest could only be pure comedy!}
I had someone try a captive thing with me once. I suspected it around the edges, then it revealed itself…then the world ended. Understand? I still don’t think the person
could tell you what hit them.
If you show them you’ll just take it, they will keep giving
it to you…and not in a good way!!
Byron Katie says herself that she used to be a drunk. She
is a human {er…I think}. Don’t pedestal her. Nor anyone
else! The second they publish something, the book company
turns them into an ATM machine, pimping them in/on any
media possible! The quickly become shucksters. She hasn’t
“gotten anywhere” folks…she is standing on the same
terra firma you are!!
VALIDITY IS IN THE MATERIAL OR WHAT IS IMPARTED.
THE VALUE IS IN THE MESSAGE. *NOT* THE ENVELOPE.
UNDERSTAND? Never forget it.
Now, everybody go burn all your pedestals!
@TB Good Guru Papers…thanks for that link! Yes, we are
exposed to people constanyl who want to get under our
skin and know how to do it very, very, Very well. Actually,
it should be harder to achieve than it is. Once you know someone is scum, cut them out of your life. Why keep
exposing yourself to possible manipulation. That just isn’t
smart to do. Hence, that is why I got off the Guru lists…
and all of them. I get one persons stuff and delete most of
it on sight.
You have the power to say “No” and “Stop” and “Fuck Off!”
If they don’t listen, RESPOND HARDER. (Duh!) Don’t be a
sheep; fight back, defend yourself and your rights to
that self.
The cult thing is very slippery. Psychos can be hard to
recognize. So Be Careful and Pedestal No One.
CHEW everything over before you swallow!! {well….you
know what I do and don’t mean! }
BTW, psychologists are quite prone to manipulation. How
in the fuck do you think they have clients that last 20
years? Hello?!! Really!! They have your TRUST as a
“professional” and are in the total power seat. I have
witnessed it rolled out on a friend of mine right in
front of me. The person would say, “Where have you been?
I missed you?” Professional? Not bloody likely. Scummy
emotional manipulation because the person felt like no
one liked him? Yessiree! That was his psychologists way
of saying, “Keep stuffing your hundred dollar bills in
my wallet and I’ll tell you anything you want to hear
before you leave.”
BE ALERT, Folks…they are EVERYWHERE…the CHURCH is
in the pedophile business…need I say more???
E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E
LC
  0
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
To Jamo:
Katie claims that she never gets angry anymore.
However, ex-employees have reported seeing her get very irritable, on many occasions.
So you’re right, that’s a total red flag: why would somebody claim that they never get angry when that isn’t even close to true? What else is she lying about?
Having said that, I have found that questioning my beliefs is helpful. I have read two of Katie’s books and liked some of the things I read.
I would NEVER consider going to an in-person event, though. I think that’s where people really get their brains tied up into a pretzel.
  +3
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 10:48 am

RD said:
You would only hope that the DA can stand in the morass of big-city lawyer cross-examination. Even in the preliminary process of the bail reduction hearings was at times vitrol … recalling Ray’s attorney’s sarcasm asking the fraud examiner if he had heard about the real estate crash in questioning the examiner’s valuation of Ray’s FIVE homes!
Something is ALWAYS going to be wrong with this picture …
Traditional sweat lodge ceremonies do not involve passing out or vomiting either in the lodge or after the ceremony is finished (period)
If Ray and his staff ‘encouraged’ participants saying, “vomiting is good because you are purging your body of toxins” …. or alternatively, if they had passed out, “leave them alone they are having their experience … we will deal with them later”, simply, this protocol has nothing to do with any traditional sweat ceremony.
Never-mind the obvious question of how does a person CHOOSE to exit the sweat lodge if they are unconscious?
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 10:50 am

Yakaru said:
The Anticult has certainly opened my eyes too. I thought all that nonsense those crooks came it with was the result of shallowness, ignorance and a alck of life experience. I didn’t realise it’s part of a cold, calculated ploy to scare off the doubters and screw the believers.
That said, I still think Ray is a bit dim. He’s way out of his depth and hasn’t even begun to comprehend that.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:43 am
I agree that Ray is out of his depth and a bit dim but he does have a calculated cunning and the willingness of the sociopath to not recognise danger.
That still makes him dangerous.
In my book, such a stupid person is probably unstoppable as there is no way to reason with such tunnel vision.
It’s important that he is convicted for this reason, nothing else except incarceration will stop him playing his godgames with the faithful.
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
I also think he really believes in his God-ness. Makes him dangerous and unreformable. Oprah really created a(nother) monster there. Incarceration is the only answer.
In case anyone hasn’t seen it, this is Him on his release
http://rumorrat.com/2010/02/27/james-ray-man-of-few-words/
He sounds scared out of his wits and gives the strangest fake smile I’ve ever seen at the end. But still has no sense at all of the damage he’s done.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Jamo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
roid withdrawal?
  +6
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 12:56 am
He was happy to have his dentures back.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Feather Boa-Constricter Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 1:12 pm
At first I didn’t believe the denture thing, but recent pictures make it seem almost obvious that he’s got fake choppers. Maybe all of those years of eating his own shit have finally caught up to him!
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 10:54 am

Hippo said:
Ray’s lawyers claim he is not a threat to public safety.
However, if he is manipulating people with his tweets, isn’t that a threat to public safety?
If he’s behind bars with no access to electronic devices, that seems like the safest thing for all of us.
WINNER!! ::   +11
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 12:55 am
They told him not to endanger people physically. What happened to the gag order?
  +1
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 2:11 pm
As of Feb 26th: Gag Order still pending the judges’ decision. Hopefully these tweets will expedite their decision
  +5
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 4:33 pm
To Bryan:
Couldn’t Ray argue that he’s not violating the gag order? He can claim that he’s just making general statements about his philosophy of life.
  +3
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:07 pm
To Hippo – yeah, that was just a general statement about how dangerous and manipulative he is. The lawyer interviews just seem to be lame attempts to poison the jury pool and they need to stop.
  +3
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 12:25 pm

Tiga said:
Everyone can be persuaded… That includes YOU. You’re persuaded and manipulated on a daily basis. YOU persuade and manipulate (or attempt too) on a daily basis to get the things you desire. All of us have our desires and needs and if a persuader can identify those then no matter your level of intellect you can be “had”. If the persuader has the know how this can be done on mass scale.
For the many who comment here it’s time to do a little “self check” just to make certain you’re not under the influence.
http://www.climategate.com/100-reasons-why-anthropogenic-global-warming-a-cult
Muchly debated. What do you think?   -3
[Reply]

Tiga Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Test complete… see what happens when you mess with someone’s cult/religion.
6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
The cult has standard answers for almost everything, and members are expected to parrot those answers. Willfulness or independence or skeptical thinking is seen as bad. Members accept the leader’s (Al Gore) reality as their own.
In this case we simply give it a spineless…”thumbs down” LOL!
  +2
[Reply]

rox Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
Yes that can happen in any group and it is a gray line between people independently coming together because they share common beliefs of their own volition, or because they are “following a leader”
I get the point you are making and there is nothing wrong with it.
The only reason I get upset with shared beliefs is if those are harming people.
It can happen in any group, Christianity, Modern Psychology, anything. It doesn’t mean it’s bad to come together as a group and share common beliefs. I am in favor of people being given awareness of things to look out for when participating is such groups.
I am also in favor of people who have been harmed by such groups being supported. If people like BK that doesn’t bother me at all, I’m glad they found something that works for them. In the case of James Ray, people died.
That is more than just, “To each his own.”
I do not think we should stand by and watch people needlessly die as a result of negligence and lust for power. Understanding what was going on with James Ray is valuable and I think it’s worth taking note when looking at other guru’s, religions, belief systems in general.
Have you heard of attachment therapy? A number of kids have died as a result of horrible practices called “attachment therapy” and there’s a lot of abuse involved (that has been deemed criminal and resulted in people practicing it being arrested).
That doesn’t mean there weren’t some things within it that may have been good. The fact that some things within it may have been helpful doesn’t make it a good idea. If people are dying, or child abuse is occurring, I think it should be re-evaluated all together.
Just to say, if a group of people were sitting around talking about racism and a racist person came on, the racist person would probably get “thumbed down” if the forum were set up like that.
Does that mean that being “anti-racist” is a cult? And if it IS a cult, is that bad?
  +3
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 4:45 am
Tiga, I gave you a negative vote for two reasons: one, it was off topic and two, I disagree. Hint: find a forum where people are discussing that issue, and present your case.
  0
[Reply]

Frank Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 3:50 pm
I think that it was definitely ON TOPIC. The cult mindset listing on that linked page was very interesting and certainly relevant to what has been discussed here.
Instead, Yakaru (and I’ve agreed with most everything else you’ve ever said), you chose to focus on the climate commentary on that page instead of the useful cult list. And that’s all that Tiga even referenced in her comment here.
You do realize that when you, yourself, link to a news site elsewhere, those sites can also have other pages/content that is offensive to someone, somewhere? Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Same here.
  +3
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:27 am
There is a difference between “cult” and “culture.”
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html
  +3
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 10:55 pm
I agree with Frank that @Tiga’s link was on topic. Here is a much more interesting place to read that list … sans global warming denial
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right
I don’t think that list had any place being on a site about the global warming debate. To me :: that trivializes the horror of cults :: and of having your independence of thought stripped away from you piece by piece by a manipulator.
I’d say {especially if you think warming is BS} that global warming is an example of scientific dogma :: which sucks :: but isn’t in the same league. In the sciences it’s especially easy to be duped by group/public opinion because most people aren’t qualified to do their own fact checking. Many of the most aggressive opinions about warming {from both sides} :: come from people who have no fucking idea what they’re talking about.
One of my science heroes is Kary Mullis :: not because he won the Nobel :: or because PCR was so important :: but because he’s just such a bastard. He says what HE thinks … and doesn’t really give a shit what “EVERYONE” thinks. He once denied that HIV caused AIDS {because retro virus pathways are complex and he wasn’t satisfied with the evidence}. And here he is in a TED talk denying global warming …
http://www.ted.com/talks/kary_mullis_on_what_scientists_do.html
It’s better to be wrong … than to give up your voice. Take ALL opinions and instructions under advisement :: but surrender yourself to NOTHING.
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 1:14 pm

Ross Jeffries said:
As someone who is deeply familiar with the use of metaphor to persuade, I can confirm that it is profoundly powerful.
I also want to point out that almost all language-even that which is not intentionally used to persuade-is metaphorical by nature. We refer to a thing or process by using a word, but the word is a symbolic representation of the experience, not the thing itself.
Metaphors aren’t inherently bad or wrong-they are the building blocks of the stories that create and sustain our culture, and the personal stories that we tell to try to find meaning in our lives.
So the fact that an evil, narcissistic fuck like Death Ray uses them, ought not to put us off the study and the use in a skillful way of a tool set that can create freedom as well as feed the delusions of a sick fuck.
PR/RJ
P.S. Funny, in the NLP community people talk about a problem called “chronic reframing disorder” where the NLPer can convince himself that anything he does is right, good, “true” etc. It takes great discipline to not persuade yourself that your own bullshit is true, when you are a champion bullshitter. NLP didn’t make me any wiser-it did make me more clever at pursuing my fixations and driveness. But it CAN be used wisely. It just often isn’t and is catnip to fucks like Deathray.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:31 am
Despite my qualms with your teachings, this I agree with.
  +3
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 2:37 pm

Bryan Neuman said:
First James offended the Native Americans, now he’s offending the Christians. Just reading the bible means NOTHING, you have to apply it to your life. Picking and choosing a couple verses in an attempt to cover your own ass does not make you a man of the universe. It’s been all talk and no walk since this tragedy. They’ve treated it like a heartless, soulless PR case from day one.
WINNER!! ::   +16
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Yes. They thought they could get away with it too. Leave it to Josh to talk to police, and tell the customers that a few people were taken ill, and back to business as usual.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 3:41 pm

Jean D said:
Mr.Droid,
How apropos to equate Ray with Kurtz!(If indeed that was your intent.)Bravo! Brilliant! To that I would like to add a quote from Conrad’s masterpiece itself,Heart of Darkness:
“Everything belonged to him–but that was a trifle. The thing to know was what he belonged to, how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own. That was the reflection that made you creepy all over. It was impossible–not good for one either–trying to imagine. He had taken a high seat amongst the devils of the land–I mean literally. You can’t understand–how could you?”
  +4
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:36 pm
@JeanD ::
I do indeed equate Death Ray to Kurtz :: in the pic and the title :: thanks for noticing!!
For those not in the know :: Apocalypse Now was based on Joseph Conrad’s famous novel :: Heart of Darkness. Kurtz {Brando in the movie} is smart :: charismatic :: and a natural leader. But he’s also dangerous :: probably bat shit insane :: and has come to see himself as a sort of god.
I see your quote :: and raise you this one …
“They had behind them, to my mind, the terrific suggestiveness of words heard in dreams, of phrases spoken in nightmares.”
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 5:19 pm

jackrabbit said:
Death Ray’s twitter:
“Very few understand that it’s the dark that creates and gives birth to greater light. Read the book of Genesis again.”
First of all, he is implying that he is one of the “very few” who understands the deeper meaning behind the Bible. Then he goes on to prove just how wrong he is by making a ridiculous implication that the book of Genesis actually tells us that “the dark” “creates and gives birth to greater light.” The book of Genesis says no such thing. Even just taken literally, the Book of Genesis has God creating light (in case there’s any doubt out there). The dark is “on the face of the deep.”
His ploy seems clear: present himself as one who has endured or is enduring great darkness, which is bringing him “greater light”, or enlightenment. After all, those “very few” who endure the greater darkness (i.e., Ray and anyone still fool enough to believe in his narcissistic delusions) will come forth from this more enlightened than ever, and for what’s left of his followers (who must increasingly resemble an upper middle class Manson family at this point), this will naturally mean coughing up money to support him in his time of darkness, and get closer to being a part of his even “greater light.” We know some will fall for this, but here’s hoping it’s very, very few indeed.
Now I wouldn’t begin to presume I can interpret the metaphysical significance behind the book of Genesis. I’m pretty sure that huge volumes could be written about it without even beginning to touch the full meaning behind the symbolism. However, I suspect it was never meant to be interpreted from a stance of SELF-IMPORTANCE, SELF-INTEREST, and a SOCIOPATHIC FEELING OF PERSECUTION.
By Death Ray’s logic, a sadistic multiple rapist or mass murderer who has spent years in jail or on death row must be highly enlightened.
WINNER!! ::   +13
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:40 am
Ray’s is a narcissist theologian’s argument:
God created light.
James Arthur Ray plays God.
Therefore James Arthur Ray created light.
James Ray is also darkness incarnate.
James Ray is also pregnant with Satan’s child.
Therefore, darkness gives birth to light.
QED.
Also just in from the Ministry of Propaganda’s Twitter account:
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH (please RT)
  +6
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 5:21 pm

Anonymous said:
Oh dear God, now James Ray will have to FACE people without the cover of a jail cell, I wonder how he’ll go? I feel for the victims families but I also have absolute faith that justice will be served. This will be a very interesting case. My opinion is that his lawyers claims of accident or no accident, what was done was done and James Ray took money for a service he was offering and ultimately responsible for. I think what he has done is exposed these so called gurus as a sham.
  +1
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 5:21 pm

jojo said:
Shameless, absolutely shameless.
The secret must be all about making sure you have enough money to pay a good lawyer when the shit hits the fan(they have set themselves up in preparation for it so its inevitable that it will happen … doh), a sudden belief in a God and presenting as a Sociopath to the judge so he’ll let you go for a while. How many conflicts can a person have in their life and be taken for real? The people in the secret movie have turned out to be totally incongruous.
I hate noone really but want to say to James Ray, wouldnt it be respectful to move out of the public eye for the people who died and for everyone else who is truly hurting over your actions? It seems the more these people hurt others the harder they go at being complete hypocrites.
  +6
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 5:40 pm

SlowlyWaking said:
Ray may be a bit dim, but he has gathered a LOT of power. Stolen power, from the borrowed infrastructure of direct marketing… and hypnosis. Which is a tool, like a revved-up chainsaw, in the hands of a psychopathic two-year old.
Hypnosis is real and powerful.
That’s maybe the only valuable lesson I’ve gotten from getting duped by Internet marketers. What Ross Jeffries says above, I agree with this: “…that an evil, narcissistic fuck like Death Ray uses them, ought not to put us off the study… of a tool set,” because it IS a tool set based on how people’s mind and decision-making are structured. Cialdini, too, should be required reading to protect yourself from the sick fucks out there… not just for the fucks trying to fuck you up.
Slightly OT? Here’s my personal history of getting fucknotized:
My first exposure? The toxic church of my youth. Now I can see how Joel Osteen is just a fem Tony Robbins with a picture Bible for kids. Then Ken McCarthy pooh-poohs NLP at System 2009, though he recommended studying it in his copywriting course.
Thanks to Clay Collins and his Project Mojave scam, I finally put two and two together. When your life falls apart and you hit absolute rock-bottom, there’s always some fugly, narcissistic nematode with a vintage colostomy bag saving a seat for the prefrontal cortex to evolve in the neural cluster not-yet known as a brain JUST IN CASE the nematode needs its advanced neurological powers of reason and morality… what, not in the DNA, Clay? Can’t win ‘em all.
So Clay Collins puts a ball cap on his dessicated, pasty forehead and starts talking to his list of 8000 about “true freedom” and “taking massive action” and “finding your true purpose.” He’s developed an intricate “freeline” maze to make people feel like failures for actually having jobs and supporting their families, complete with a blame-the-victim mentality and the use of a newborn baby and his dead grandfather as props. (“They’re the reason I’m doing this!” Doing what, Clay? Convincing people to jump off a financial cliff, and if they suck at it, you’ll privately coach them in your Project Sonora for $4000 extra?)
Whenever this guy opens his mouth he sounds like a TV preacher faking a Godgasm.
Hey, I’m vulnerable, sign me up. Lots of people joined me and got queasy when he trotted out a sales letter for a “mega orgasm” course so we could learn copywriting. He’s in the Dave “Cock Fun” D’Angelo/Fuck Kern cult (along with Laura Roeder, a Mojave “faculty member” who made a video and stays far, far away from the empty forum of confused noobs that Clay doesn’t even visit). So he works NLP/conversational hypnosis into everything he does. Just like Kern’s “Mass Control.” Once I learned about all THAT, I saw it from miles away. It wasn’t even that well done.
Manipulation doesn’t have to be well-done to hook people by their wounds.
So, I traded a few hundred bucks for an Hands-On Boot Camp to Resist the HypnoDouches. Thanks, Clay! The next time some teen nympho runs a swish pattern on me I’ll see it coming. And I hope you enjoy the world you’ve created for yourself, struggling to turn doe-eyed noobs into scammers, when you can’t even point to one person making the $138/day in 3.8 months you claimed when I signed up, you goddamn anal fistula who never even got the social refinements of cotillion.
I also hope you die of cancer. Fortunately I’ve got a 1 in 3 chance of seeing that happen!
OK, I feel better, thanks for reading, though I still don’t have a “freedom business” after taking “massive action” which turned out to be eating a massive shit from Clay Collins’ black, hairy mouth & mind. At least I know to distrust ANYONE with a “personal myth” and a price tag, with a system, sales funnel and continuity site…
At least I’m not dead like the people who trusted one of the worst shits on earth in a time of need and pain.
GOOD HYPNOSIS RESOURCE: Michael D. Yapko’s “Essentials of Hypnosis,” to get a feel for the basics without disappearing into someone’s sales funnel.
  +6
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:48 am
Sorry to hear of your experience.
My blogging compatriot deconstructed part of the marketing for Project Mojave a while back on Beyond Growth:
http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/marketing-as-freedom-meads-mohave-manifesto/
  +1
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:21 am
And a side note, neither Kern nor Collins are using NLP/conversational hypnosis per say, just the standard hyped up, high-pressure formulaic internet marketing. It has evolved somewhat to be more casual and postmodern however, using irony to deflect from the fact that one is using the same manipulative marketing tactics.
Ross Jeffries on the other hand is actually an excellent teacher of conversational hypnosis. Unfortunately his ethics aren’t clean enough for me to recommend his services (he recommends telling stories that are lies, stealing other men’s girlfriends/wives, etc.).
There are one or two teachers of conversational hypnosis in the world that I might recommend learning from, but only if you plan on becoming a hypnotherapist. Otherwise it’s too much training in smooth talking.
  +3
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:56 am
To Duff:
I do wonder about the ethics issues you brought up.
I understand that some people don’t have consciences.
Having said that, what is the purpose of stealing other men’s girlfriends, particularly using fraudulent means?
What do you actually HAVE, other than a feeling of power, and a sense of superiority over those you are able to dupe?
I would think that causing all that suffering would bring tremendous shame.
  +1
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Hippo,
For some people the feeling of power and sense of superiority over those you are able to dupe is the only thing worth living for. Death Ray is a good example.
Most of us go through a power-hungry stage of life but then find other pleasures to temper the power hunger–it’s often called growing up.
  +3
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:39 pm
To Stoic:
I am not waiting for God to give me a cookie in the after-life. If I behave shamefully, I can’t live with myself.
If I am remembered at all, I would like to be remembered fondly, as someone who behaved decently toward others.
  +2
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Yes, I totally agree.
  +2
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 6:46 pm

Jamo said:
This LeeKwan D-bag again (comments section). What a moron.
http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=35204
  +3
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
LeeKuan must be Tweeting as “Li Kuan Shih” who appeared here today under {tweeting james}
@Hippo Maybe electronic communications will work against Ray of Darkness!
From the looks of it,he’s getting some negative tweets and blocking folks.Could he possibly get tired of seeing and blocking hateful or confrontational tweets and give up?
Let’s take some time to send as many tweets possible to “Mr.Now I’ve Got a Messiah Complex”. Be sure to include thoughts, questions,and most of all, reminders of the 4 people whose lives he ended.
  +4
[Reply]

Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:19 am
I can tell you with 100% certainty that the person tweeting as Li_Kuan, aka Li Kuan Shih (http://twitter.com/Li_Kuan), is NOT the fanatic who was going on and on at the New York magazine web site. In fact, I brought up this very topic on a previous thread here on Droid’s blog. I expressed a fear that there might be some confusion between the two.
I won’t go so far as to suggest that “LeeKuan” (the fanatic) deliberately chose that name to create brand confusion, as it were. That would sound paranoid, maybe a bit nutty. And I don’t think I’m nutty…not yet, anyway. :-) However, I do know of some New-Wage/selfish-help/McSpirituality gurus and their followers who have some issues with Li_Kuan (the non-fanatic), and are angry about some of the things he has written. I know of at least a couple of these folks who have blocked Li_Kuan from their Twitter timelines (not the other way around).
I can also say for certain that Li_Kuan is NOT a James Ray fan.
I mean, seriously. Read his tweets. He’s always RT’ing people like me and that Burned By Fire guy. He’s been taking James Ray to task. He pokes fun at some of the New-Wage guys. Does that sound consistent with the LeeKuan dude you’re talking about?
I can understand why the selfish-help gurus would be on Li_Kuan’s case, but I didn’t want y’all to start beating up on him too, especially since he’s on your side (well, at least those of you who like Salty’s blog).
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:41 am
I can verify that the D-bag LeeKuan is a different entity to Li_Kuan the twitterer.
The D-bag LK is all over the net under variety of aliases (Majorbig, Majorminor–real name Jason Daro) spewing a form of roidrage entitlement and getting swiftly banned. His prose style is instantly recognisable.
  +4
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Thank you for clarifying that. I notified Verde Independent today about him. His comments over there are horrible and he’s still attacking Native Americans.
  0
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 5:58 pm
He has a blog under jasonsitala.proboards.com with all his ravings and some very disturbing language and images. Beware to anyone posting out there,he’s “after” critics of Ray of Darkness. I hope they’re keeping in touch,they deserve each other.
  0
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 6:03 pm
“I hope they’re keeping in touch,they deserve each other.”
Now there’s a thought, perhaps we should sic LeeKuan onto his hero Death Ray, I wonder who’d come out on top of that encounter?
  +1
[Reply]

LoL Reply:
March 20th, 2010 at 2:08 am
@stoic,
Yea, I tried reasoning with this guy. Futile attempt.
Check this out:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8601-504083_162-6173065.html?assetTypeId=41&tag=contentMain;contentBody
  0
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 20th, 2010 at 2:58 am
@LoL,
I read a page and could take no more, I bailed.
The first time he showed up ranting as LeeKuan in defence of Death Ray (can’t remember the site but it is in the comments here) he said that he had not heard of Death Ray until some time after the story of the fatalities broke, some few weeks before he started this defence rant as LeeKuan.
He immediately decided that this guy was ‘the man’ and worth following, ordered his books and CD’s and declared that he was going to be ‘bigger’ than Death Ray ever was. At that point he was still waiting for the books and CD’s to arrive.
So my immediate conclusion was that the attraction for LeeKuan was the fatalities that Death Ray had caused, not Death Ray’s ‘ideology’ (I suppose his nonsense qualifies as an ideology in the strict sense of the word)
That is some sick, power-hungry drive that sees a man causing needless death to innocent people in the pursuit of money and immediately decides that such a man is a hero to be emulated, even to the point of defending the man all over the web.
Whatever is going on with Jason Daro/Leekuan I would advise all to give him a wide berth. That fool will implode sooner or later and it is unlikely to be pretty.
  0

Hippo Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
That guy is nuts. He was arguing with about five of us on the New York Magazine website–all middle-aged women who were trying to reason with him. Some of the ladies felt sorry for him and thought he was just mis-guided, but would respond to logic and facts, but no such luck.
I thought it was kind of funny–I had this mental picture of this guy who claims he’s a “warrior” and a “martial arts expert” doing battle with us old crones, who were sitting on a porch, trying to offer him lemonade.
He wouldn’t play nice, though. A couple of the ladies have a Native American background, and they were even more offended by him than I was.
  +4
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 12:42 am
Hi Hippo I know who you are now. Wow! That’s amazing how I connected to your ideas here and we were already sharing ideas over at NYM but I didn’t know you were the same person.
  +1
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 12:54 am
Hello, Jean, nice to see you here.
Did you bring any lemonade?
  +2
[Reply]

Carlon Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 5:15 am
That LeeKwan guy put that EXACT same comment on my blog.
http://dontstepinthepoop.com/sweat-lodge-guru-asks-universe-set-free
I don’t know what he’s trying to prove. Maybe he’s cutting ans pasting the same comment everywhere where they say something about JAR. I asked him to send me the DVD and I’d review it for him. I’m still waiting.
  +2
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:52 pm
His site is jasonsitala.proboards.com I looked at it yesterday. The same posts were copied and pasted from his site to your page. He won’t reason,just keep posting and posting the same stuff over and over. He’ll escalate into an insane screaming threatening racist perverted monster.The only solution is to block or ban.
  0
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 9:59 pm

wow said:
that is by far the best picture you have ever made…
equal parts creepy and sinister…
sad things is I think Ray would like it and use it
for the cover of a book
  +4
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 10:25 pm

Ross Jeffries said:
Don’t make the mistake of thinking it’s only his hypno-speak that makes RayGun appealing to the sheeple.
Those are his tools, for sure.
But what makes it more powerful is that he is appealing to powerful human needs:
1. the need for certainty
2. the need to belong and fit in
3. the need to contribute to something larger than oneself
4. the need to be devoted
Exploring these needs can be done in a skillful way, but it’s almost always the case that they are explored recklessly and unskillfully because the needs aren’t fully explained or discussed and the methodology to explore skillfully is not taught.
Make no mistake: offering your devotion wrongly-either to a destructive, abusive partner to a Guru-has devastating consequences. Exploring this stuff can be as dangerous as exploring hallucinogens.
It takes courage and discipline to tolerate uncertainty, to admit that you don’t have all the answers, and that trusting an authority ought only to be done in certain contexts, under certain conditions, and after a lot of research and due diligence has been done.
RJ
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

Q Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 3:19 am
“Exploring these needs can be done in a skillful way, but it’s almost always the case that they are explored recklessly and unskillfully because the needs aren’t fully explained or discussed and the methodology to explore skillfully is not taught.”
What’s a skillful and careful methodology that can be used to explore them?
  0
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:19 am
I would say radical agnosticism. Which means you continue to question and you don’t attach meaning or trust just because the teacher can do some really interesting stuff.
Look: most, almost ALL of what creeps like RayRay can do is fake. But some(some) of it can be real. If you delve around in the mind long enough, sooner or later some interesting abilities can float to the surface.
But just because someone can do some neat stuff doesn’t make them wise, trust-worthy, safe to “follow” etc. It just means they have some skill.
So I’ve seen some odd stuff and people be able to do odd stuff, but that doesn’t mean I BUY THEIR EXPLANATION, THEIR WORLD VIEW, OR EVEN THAT THEY ARE RELATIVELY SANE HUMANS.
So that is a big warning flag for me- the “Guru” or teacher displays his little “miracles” up front(fake or real doesn’t matter) and then encourages/programs you to reach the conclusion that everything he says is unquestionable.
Another red-flag: how does the teacher handle questions that challenge their doctrine/teachings?
Does he/she respond by doing their best to answer the question? Or do they respond by feeling attacked and turning the question back on the student as proof the student is flawed, wrong, awful, sinful, etc?
Has the teacher/guru ever had a brush with the law? Been sued? Gone bankrupt(not necessarily a sign of d- bag, but if he’s teaching financial prosperity, it is certainly a bad sign).
You can check almost anyone out nowadays-I routinely use intellius.com.
And finally: do you get enough skill sets to keep teaching yourself WITHOUT HAVING TO COME BACK? Or does the Guru arrange an “experience” that falls apart outside the seminar room, so you have to keep coming back to get “the high”?
There’s lots more things to look for. There are good, legit, clean teachers out there. They are just VERY hard to find.
One last thing: when I met my meditation teacher, I set up a test. I asked him a very difficult question about reconciling Buddhist teachings with something in the Yoga Sutra, equally respected, but contradictory to what he was teaching. Then I said, “Do you understand the question?” testing to see if he would be insulted.
He just laughed and said, “Of course I understand it. I wouldn’t be qualified to teach if I didn’t.”
He then gave me an answer that blew me away with his intelligence. When he finished he kind of giggled, smiled and said, “Did that answer your question?”
I’ve been questioning him ever since and he’s always answered my toughest and most challenging ones with relish.
That’s a teacher I trust.
RJ
  +5
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:53 am
Ross Jeffries, you almost sound human! Perhaps age has a softening effect on us all, though I won’t be holding my breath in Death Ray’s case.
If I were a cynic I might be put in mind of Marc Anthony’s masterful speech in ‘Julius Caesar’, a exemplar of the rhetoric of persuasion:
http://www.presentationmagazine.com/friends-romans-countrymen.htm
  0
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:29 am
Thanks, Stoic. My Jewish mamma taught me an interesting lesson when I was about 6 years old. I was sassing her and she shook her finger and said to me, “Watch out for your Achilles heel, kid.”
I asked her what that meant, and she explained that Achilles mother dipped him in the river Styx so he would be invincible, but left his heels out because that’s how she held him.
So I asked her what my Achilles heel was and she said, “You THINK you know everything.”
And ever since then I’ve realized she was right and that if I’m not careful I’ll believe my own bullshit. So I’ve taken care to build in as many things as I can to keep from deluding myself.
That tendency to buy your own bullshit is dangerous enough(and human enough) but mix it with the charisma to convince people to follow you and you get into real intellectual trouble. If people are constantly kissing your ass and telling you that you are God or god-like, it is very easy to start believing it and acting the role to the point where you buy it completely.
From their, self-destruction is only a matter of time because the laws of reality-that actions have consequences-will always catch up.
Handling adulation and enormous praise is actually far more dangerous than handling great rejection. I’ve experienced a lot of both, and while the second may hurt more, the first is much more problematic if you aren’t keenly aware of the dangers and have a very strong commitment and system to handle it wisely.
I’ve seen this time and again in my own niche-guys start out mildly twisted and with mostly good intentions, but over time the worship of the fans activates and feeds their nascent and budding sociopathy, and within a year or so they are full blown d-bags.
Your mileage WILL vary.
RJ
  +6
[Reply]
# 28 February 2010 at 11:11 pm

Jean D said:
Hi Hippo, Iced peppermint tea and homemade oatmeal raisin cookies! Have you realized this board, Salty Droid’s,is the kitchen of the party where lots of people gather?
  0
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:55 am
Hello, Jean, it’s good to see the same names over and over again.
Even though nothing on the internet is 100% trustworthy, we have some nice, solid people here.
  +2
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 1:13 am

Ray is Back said:
Hold on to your seats boys and girls. Ray cancelled his programs because Bob “MLM sucker” Proctor told him to stop. He didn’t want to piss off the authorities. But now that he has been arrested and is facing charges, Ray has nothing to lose. After he faces criminal charges, he’s going to face civil charges. He’s going to need money for years of legal defense. Expect his lawyers to delay his trial while JAR goes into high gear collecting money. And boys and girls, JAR does care about what goes on here or on Rick Ross.He is using all his Harmonic Cultic Powers to make money. Personally i can’t wait to give him 10,000 big one to learn about how to turn darkness into light. I’ve been just waiting for Jay to get out of jail so I can learn these secrets. I know my life will be changed. Keep your eye on his site for the big announcement. It’s coming. He needs the money. By the way, if you download Joe Vitale’s new Attracting money ebook, guess who wrote one of the endorsements – that’s right JAR! Go Joe! You’re almost one of the big boys you hunk of a doctor of metaphysics with an alien guitar. Boy the shit he gets people to believe and pay for.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 6:59 am

Bryan Neuman said:
Knowing what I know now, I almost wish I would have sent it to him with her name crossed out and replaced with Jane Doe.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 2:00 pm
This was supposed to be a “reply” to “I’m still waiting for my $2 sympathy card from him. And the saddest part is, we found a nice hand written birthday card from my Mom addressed to James Ray, ready to be mailed to him for his birthday.” Sorry for the double post.
  +5
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 10:23 pm
To Bryan:
With what little I know of Ray, I’m guessing that he either would not get the card, because it would be intercepted by one of his gofers, or if he did see it, it wouldn’t faze him at all.
  +3
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:32 pm
To Hippo – you’re probably right. If he had even a shred of humanity he would have ID’d my Mother in the hospital and contacted my family.
  +3
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:43 pm
To Bryan:
This is the one thing that sends me over the edge more than any other. For whatever it’s worth, I have been telling your story on several different websites I post on.
  +1
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 1:56 pm

noodlebowl said:
As someone noted next door at Rick Ross’s forum–Jesus never made anyone sign a waiver of liability form as a condition of following him as disciple. By contrast, Jesus WARNED his followers of the precise risks they would incur if they wanted to get involved with him.
And a big clue that Jesus did not use LGAT methods or mind fuck/trance work is that when the fuzz arrived to arrest him, Jesus followers fled and left him to face the horrors all alone.
And as noted by folks next door on RR.com, Jesus didnt even have an attorney at his side when facing the court.
He took the full, horrible consequences all by himself.
Here is the link:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77450,82491#msg-82491
  +6
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 4:13 pm

seducer said:
hey Ross Jeffries, why don’t you explain a bit about how Ray has been able to go after an audience of almost all women.
most of Rays closest admirers are young women, he even dresses them up at his seminars and appoints them to do his dirty work for him.
explain a bit how a creep like Ray has been able to go after mainly women with his products and to seduce them to think of Ray as some type of sexy beast, and to get them to spend thousands of dollars they don’t have.
even with a trail of dead bodies there are still young women who are following Ray
  +4
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Seducer,
Don’t tell me it’s a Mystery to you that some women are attracted to charisma, power and high status, which JARJAR certainly had before he started his affair with Bubba in the county lock-up?
Here’s a few more hints:
The women who join these kinds of LGATs self-select as being highly gullible and suggestible. The critical thinkers drop out mid-way through the first guest evening.
It’s like the secret to being a great stage hypnotist. It’s not the hypnotic tonality or the special mega-power stare or the dangling pendulum. It’s the selection of the proper subjects, and telling the poor subjects to get off the stage and go back to their seats in a nice enough way that the audience doesn’t turn against you.
Just by running up on stage, people are self-selecting. That’s like the first cut. The critical cut is when the operator keeps the most suggestible ones on stage and sends the others packing.
That’s the REAL skill, the rest is window-dressing.
So in a sense, Ray Ray is doing a stage hypnosis show, but the entire audience are his self-selected subjects.
Why so many women? They want an object of veneration and devotion who is also the ultimate challenge: he can fuck any of them, by virtue of his status, so they will have to work to give it up to him.
Hey..wait a sec? WHY AREN’T I TEACHING ***WOMEN***? (SLAPS SELF ON FOREHEAD VIOLENTLY!)
Understand my explanation?
RJ
93/93
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Jamo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Women make-up 70% of self help clients across the board.
And the testosterone shots gave Ray that “manly edge”.
  +4
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Sure,a man with no brain,no balls, and no bitches,has to resort to artificial means to get noticed.
  +1
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 6:26 pm

HarmonicFraud! said:
It appears that the ominous tweeting continues…and that Ray’s personal/business website is fully operational, once again. :-( (Apologies if that’s already been mentioned somewhere, though…)
Given the fact that, in several instances, Ray utilized the Internet to advertise his “services”, and, more importantly, to coerce his victims to attend his seminars (events that directly led to their injuries), I’m a bit surprised that his website usage & activities weren’t somehow restricted or prohibited by the court, as a condition of his bail. (…Especially given the potential dangers associated with the situation, and the emotional trauma that such activities could inflict upon the victims’ loved ones.) Does anyone know if the court can legally do anything about his online statements, or if they could be used against him later, in his trial?
I’m also slightly concerned that, by his tweets, he might be trying to create the basis for a sort of “insanity” plea, should all of his other options fall through. Or…perhaps he’s just setting up his next move, professionally…maybe a book about how “The (Real) Secret” is actually for one to descend into total darkness & chaos?
(You know, I think I may have seen the cover for his new book here:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2dip1ew.jpg
;-) Apologies, too, for the blatant copyright infringement…)
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 11:05 pm
To Harmonic Fraud:
Priceless.
  +3
[Reply]

HarmonicFraud! Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:45 am
Thank you, Hippo. :-) I know that this isn’t a laughing matter, but I couldn’t help myself; Ray’s tweets were just so infuriatingly arrogant & clueless!
(There’s actually one more…”Twitter Wars: Death Ray vs. God & Buddha”:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2qk5u7d.jpg
…with no offense, whatsoever, intended towards any religious figure, George Lucas, or anyone else. Just trying to do something quasi-constructive with my anger & sadness over the whole thing, really…)
  +3
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:27 am
To Harmonic Fraud:
You’re providing some welcome comic relief.
During Phil Spector’s trial, there was nothing I could do to help the family of that poor lady he killed. There was also nothing I could do to make sure he got convicted.
So I had to content myself with making fun of his hair.
  +6
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 9:14 pm

Jean D said:
“There is no happiness without tears,no life without death.”Lucian Staniak. Took the lives of 6 women,Poland,1964-1967.
“For anything new to live, something first must die.” James Arthur Ray
Took the lives of 3 women,1 man,USA, 2009.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 9:36 pm

Bryan Neuman said:
Hey I have a great idea! Let’s bastardize more religions and make even more excuses for reckless manslaughter! Here are more tweets from good ol’ JR.
http://rumorrat.com/2010/02/27/james-ray-tweets-is-an-insanity-plea-in-his-future/
  +2
[Reply]

Sad Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:03 am
The sad part of this is that anyone who follows any ‘spiritual gurus’ such as Ray, Wilbur, Tolle, Erhard etc have an understanding of what these twitter posts are trying to convey.
The reason it sounds nonsensical has to do with James Ray, Tolle, Wilbur (whatever, they’re all basically interchangeable) having a certain way of describing what they’re describing (think: cults having their own language).
Salty posted a useful link above…and here’s the part about Cult Speak:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_cult_speak
Example: (and please understand before reading this that the following is just bullshit cult speak, but I’m presenting it here to make a point below about the things these cult leaders teach)
He suggests at 54:45 – 55:00 that he says he wanted to ‘know what consciousness is’. I quote his explanation of consciousness from 55:45 – 56:05 : “you are a clearing in which it all shows up, you are a clearing in which it all occurs”). [By the way, if the word 'clearing' doesn't reek of scientology, I don't know what does.]
DOES ALL THIS SOUND LIKE GIBBERISH?
Not to a follower it’s not.
And that’s a danger. These teachings mean something to people who follow them and they get bounded up with the messenger (like Werner, James Ray, etc)
James Ray’s tweet…
“Since Universal Source Energy is the creator, and it’s sole objective is fuller expression and expansion’ it can’t be other than itself. Therefore, we can look forward with cheerful expectation, regardless of conditions & appearances, to greater goodness unfolding in our life”
…means something to his followers. They actually have a description for it like the description of Eckharts teaching above and Werner’s teaching.
And even though it’s fraught with fallacy (deductive, material, and verbal fallacies), it is still understood and followed by the follower.
It’s all very problematic IMO. Especially when it leads to, as you said, reckless manslaughter.
  +6
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
While there is certainly a lot of jargon in the integral community, and a lot of power dynamics that fall somewhere on the cult spectrum, Ken Wilber has as far as I know not killed anyone.
I admit that James Ray is a terrible theologian and has little interesting to say on matters of the Spirit. But the mystical experience is quite a big baby to throw out with the bloody bathwater, IMHO.
  0
[Reply]

Fair enough Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Although the reference was less to mystical experiences and more to the problematic entanglement of the guru and message. Mixing one part psychopathic guru with a valid message is, in my opinion, the problematic part.
Mystical experiences are fine. Religion is fine.
Adding 1 part ‘taking advantage of people’, ‘manipulating people’, ‘psychopath’, etc to the message is, again, in my opinion, problematic. And it’s a messy tangle I don’t know how to unweave.
  +2
[Reply]

Sad 2 Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:21 am
And I’m just thinking now – what’s even more sad is the fact that this all involves playing around with another human beings identity is a less than positive way/in a manipulative way.
  +4
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:22 am
Thanks for the info Sad. Living in JR’s fantasy world sounds great and all, but when people start dying it might be time to make a change. Human emotions like guilt and remorse help us learn from our mistakes and make the necessary changes. I tried reasoning with one of his followers and this is exactly what they told me: “I do NOT however BLAME anyone for death…..ANY death.” So apparently it’s okay for someone to go on a killing spree? This is extremely disturbing to me.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:36 am
To Bryan:
I have heard this type of argument before. They seem to think that murder victims “drew it in” and are therefore responsible for their own killing.
Pretty offensive to a survivor trying to come to grips with a tragedy.
  +5
[Reply]

Sad Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Yes, it is disturbing and, as Hippo suggested, offensive.
The belief system and meta-level doctrine is one thing (such as taking abstract concepts such as “blame” and “responsibility” and “identity” etc and reframing them toward an indoctrination process) … but to overlay said belief system/doctrine over an actual tragedy with total disregard for logic or rational discussion is just…it’s sick!? I’m not sure if that’s the right description, but it just feels sick to me. It’s sick not to step back and go: “Okay whoooa. This may have gone too far. Ya we’re attached to our group and belief system and guru AND we may even still believe we’re right. But people died in association with what we believe in – namely James Ray – and we need to slooooow down and realize the gravity of what’s taken place…several people ACTUALLY dying. Now is not the time to defend our doctrine or guru. We need to put that aside and actually reevaluate what the hell just went on.”
It seems somewhat sick not to AT LEAST (at the VERY least) do that…and getting a response like “I do NOT however BLAME anyone for death…..ANY death” also seems to show a type of rigidity / clinging to the doctrine. If they negated the doctrine and said “Actually, I think James might have been wrong and what he teaches about blame/responsibility and death might not apply in this particular case”, that would suggest that James could be wrong (because the message and the messenger may be interwoven to the follower). And to a true believer, the guru probably can’t be wrong. To suggest the message is wrong also suggests the guru is wrong.
The whole thing is just…I can’t find the proper explanation for it other than it’s a fucking psychological mess (both from the cults side AND from the side of people who have the deal with the consequences of the cult due to its selfishness)
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Repost Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
From The Anticult @ Rick Ross Forum http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77450,page=71
“The convenience with the New Wage crapola like Abe-Hicks, is that they can always blame the victim. No matter what happens, they blame the victims, as they they say they attracted it through the LOA.
But of course that never applies to the Guru, only to the followers.
It would be interesting to see what complaints have been lodged against Abraham-Hicks in terms of people getting ripped-off, scammed, hurt and injured psychologically or otherwise.
Because when Gurus start spouting the perverse and even fanatical LOA beliefs that every victim “attracted” the crime that was perpetrated against them, when that is combined with the idea that “there is no death”, its only a short step to literally leaving people to literally die before their eyes.
Because hey, they attracted what is happening, and there is no such thing as death.
They even tried that one in the James Ray conference call, where they said the people who died crossed-over to the other side and were having fun and decided to not come back.
Who was that channeler who said that on behalf of James Ray on that conference call?
————————-
“Channeling and death
NEW YORK MAGAZINE: In a conference call after Sedona, a woman who was identified as speaking on behalf of James Ray International and who was identified as a kind of medium or channeler, said that the victims had been having out-of-body experiences and were having so much fun that they chose not to return to their bodies.”
[www.azstarnet.com]
Is that channeler associated with the Abraham-Hicks operation? Was her name posted anywhere?
There is overlap with the groups, search for:
“abraham-hicks” “james arthur ray”"
  0
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 6:58 am
To Duff,
Mystical experiences are probably the most powerfully seductive experiences known to humanity. They arise in the persons own brain and are utterly compelling. Because they arise in the persons own brain they are built from the history and beliefs that the person already holds, thats what makes them so compelling.
Lots of spontaneous mystical experiences have been shown to be produced when something goes awry in the temporal lobe. Some people just have an ability to produce such experiences through the way their brain is wired or from practice.
It is a problem when the interpersonal tech has become so advanced that any shyster can buy the training in a weekend seminar to produce these powerfully persuasive experiences in others for the shysters financial benefit.
The shyster does not need to know what the history or beliefs of his victims are, just how to produce the experience. The persons own brain does the rest.
This is very dangerous tech to have in the wrong hands.
If you like your brain the way it is you will start learning to spot these shysters and avoid them like the plague. I would put Ken Wilbur in the deluded powerhungry idiot category, while Death Ray is a lethal powerhungry idiot.
There is nothing that either is offering that cannot be found elsewhere at less cost, both financially and to the psyche.
  +1
[Reply]
# 1 March 2010 at 11:13 pm

rwr said:
Here are some older tweets from James Ray. Note all times listed are Eastern Time.
Off to a big start! Everyone is awake and alive after a big breakthrough last night. Did I say today is going to push some buttons? :)
10:04 AM Jul 25th, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/2837443317
*Above is from the day Colleen Conaway died*
Our evolution is founded on the NECESSITY that we accept complete responsibility for the consequences of our own actions
8:16 PM Sep 27th, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/4429738532
Apparently he used to look favorably on taking responsibility. As long as someone else was doing it.
We’re continually plagued be apparent evil (live backwards) until we realize that this evil arises from our own ignorance of who we are.
5:09 PM Sep 22nd, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/4298361874
- But we sure know who you are, jimmy.
A little known esoteric secret is that world saviors always come in thru the house of business/material affairs.
4:21 PM Aug 31st, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/3672856154
Not “little known,” rather it’s simply your made-up bullshit.
And this pair, from Mr. Mind Altering Sleep Deprivation::
Major breakthrough experience going on… We’re still going strong!! Sleep is SO over rated :)
2:21 AM Sep 12th, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/3929613808
Secret weapon: “I’m going to sleep deeply and soundly and wake up rested and ready to rock!”
4:40 AM Sep 12th, 2009 via txt
http://twitter.com/JamesARay/status/3930922661
Couldn’t make myself read any more of it.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:26 am
“Pushing buttons” –
Several of the witness statements from the death lodge also mentioned about it being “hard to tell if someone is really in trouble or just being whiny”. That’s got ray’s bullying fingerprints all over it too.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
This is an integral part of a LGAT culture that doesn’t respect healthy limits and psychological boundaries. There is a deep confusion about safety and healthy limits. “Playing safe,” “fear” of being unsafe, etc. are seen as the enemy, the only limits to success/enlightenment/happiness, and only a traumatic “breakthrough” can destroy such “negative/limiting beliefs.”
Meanwhile *actual* safety is totally disregarded. This leads to very intense Big Experiences, which is great for word of mouth marketing, bringing in more and more people to the seminars. It also justifies self-serving high-pressure salesmanship, for the only thing stopping someone from buying is their limiting beliefs that will keep them unhappy forever unless I as the salesman break through them for this person (and such verbal abuse is the nicest thing I can do).
  +2
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 12:28 am

Why James Ray Is Sickening... said:
James Ray = Reminiscent Of:
  +2
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 3:40 am

Senor said:
These guys are all about CONTROL and they will bully any which way to get it. I have experienced it in all its shocking glory.
  +2
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 4:41 pm

Anonymous said:
I could tell immediately she has participated quite a bit in Landmark Education courses. Most of the phraseology she is using comes from LEC.
I have never heard of her before this.
  +2
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:47 pm
Oops. The woman I referred to in my previous comment is Miss Andros- the video marketing queen.
  +1
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 7:06 pm

Ross Jeffries said:
I forgot to mention another great book. This has the best and most thorough explanation of the NLP “Sleight of Mouth” model which IS very useful for sales and therapy.
It’s called “Mind-Lines” by L. Michael Hall. Very thick and academic in style, but is, in my opinion, the best NLP work on the subject I’ve ever encountered.
RJ
P.S. This stuff is WAY to comprehensive and intelligent for a dumb ass like RayRay to use, so don’t worry.
  +2
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I don’t think it’s over Ray’s head actually. He is ruthless enough to learn anything that helps him get his way.
The SoM/Mind-Lines patterns go both ways, as do all distinctions in communication. On the one hand, one can learn many ways of speaking and thinking that free one’s self and others (e.g. therapy clients) to see new perspectives. On the other hand, the same exact reframes can be used to build a more elegant and comprehensive prison for one’s self by defending one’s neurosis, or can be used to further bully and intimidate/verbally abuse others who refuse to buy or sleep with you.
The same is of course true of pure logic and rationality. I’ve often fought for my own unhappiness using airtight “logic.”
  +2
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 3:49 am
I agree that far from being over Death Ray’s head, this is all that is inside his head. The Anticult tracked down an NLP teacher of Ray:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77450,page=77
Everything the human mind can dream up can be used to help or hinder, heal or destroy. The responsibilty and choice lies with the wielder of the tool.
  0
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 12:34 pm

John London said:
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
There’s something sure about Maria:
I bet she’s a great fuck!
I like her, she’s my kind of woman!
LOSER!! ::   -4
[Reply]

If You Say So Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 11:07 pm
You need to see her without all the makeup. And if you haven’t noticed, you’d need a ski lift to get over her nose.
  0
[Reply]

Sexist Pig Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 6:14 am
Having a potty mouth seems to be in on this site. SD sure does. But I seem to recall SD going after Kilfat who used sexist abusive language against Karin. Now saying you want to fuck Maria Andros? You are a sexist pig. I hope your little dick shrivels up and falls off. Die you sexist fucker.
  -1
[Reply]

Tsk Tsk Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
@SP: Why take the bait…
  +2
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 10:50 pm

rox said:
People tweeting to jamesaray
“It’s great to see you back, James. May we all get how evolution is what matters, and not the particular incidents in that path”
Oh you mean like people dying?
  +3
[Reply]
# 4 March 2010 at 11:13 am

wrong said:
its dangerously wrong and stupid to say that Ray is too dumb to use those methods like the NLP ones mentioned.
how can ross jeffries say Ray doesn’t use these techniques, when ross jeffries has said he hasn’t studied Rays material? its ridiculous arrogance.
Ray has used anything he could get his hands on, and it dangerous and stupid to mislabel these gurus as being dumbasses.
Ray got caught because people died, and Ray is not convicted yet.
but there are hundreds of other Rays out there who are not getting caught.
never underestimate an enemy, that is a fatal mistake.
gurus, politicians and other scammers often act simple minded to make people feel more at ease.
  +1
[Reply]
# 4 March 2010 at 2:47 pm

Sexist Pig said:
And by the way, posts from Ross Jeffries on this site make me want to puke. This is the guy who “ethically” teaches men who to get unsuspecting women into bed by using covert NLP + hypnosis. This is the guy who trained Neil Strauss, went to work for Neil Strauss, trained Debbie DeAngelo, and now comes up here smelling of sunshine. Ross’s career is washed up. His students out-marketed him and the losr has no life but to come here and put down others.
  -2
[Reply]

Observer Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
You must not be a member of “Cougar Life” (cougarlife.com). “It’s one of the hottest new trends in dating: Older women using their animal instincts to prey on younger men.” Says a member: “They’re just energetic and passionate. They can keep up with my zest for life…”
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/news/22717304/detail.html
Ever read these books?
“How to Get a Rich Man: The Princess Formula”
“The Gold Digger’s Guide: How To Marry The Man And The Money”
“How to Marry Money: The Simple Path to Love and Glory”
“How To Marry A Multi-millionaire: The Ultimate Guide To High Net Worth Dating”
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 9:34 am
Don’t forget “The Rules” http://www.therulesbook.com/
Another collection-of-excrement promoted by Oprah who is quoted on their page, “Men like Rules Women” and
“The Rules isn’t just a book, it’s a movement,honey”
Since when does Oprah know anything about men and heterosexual relationships?
  +3
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
@SP ::
You know what makes me sick? People hiding behind proxy servers to call out people using their real identities.
Something {probably reason} tells me that an advocate for women wouldn’t say something totally fucking lame like: “His students out-marketed him.”
Which makes you a disingenuous troll. Go away troll.
[Reply]

rox Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
I do have to say both women and men are equally capable of being vicious, cruel, self absorbed, and of committing atrocities.
I’m not into men OR women taking advantage of, using, manipulating or otherwise causing harm to anyone.
I like to imagine Ross Jeffries now teaches men to be kind and loving and not use women in a way that would hurt them, right Jeff?? LOL, or not.
Otherwise it’s not to late to turn around Jeff! heh…
  +5
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
You can judge for yourself from these “success stories” on his website, which include multiple accounts of men successfully encouraging married and/or committed monogamous women to sleep with them instead:
http://www.seduction.com/success.php
  0
[Reply]

Larry Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 1:22 am
Duff, you can always do what I do. Whenever my girlfriend leaves the house, I have her wear wolf bane and smear garlic salve all over. So far, it’s worked! :)
  0
[Reply]
# 4 March 2010 at 5:32 pm

SD (author) said:
My favorite “shut the fuck up Death Ray” tweet of the weekend …
“#JamesRay plays too much WoW if he thinks a simple “rez plz” is going to get him out of the triple homicide charges.”
http://twitter.com/CassandraYorgey/statuses/10095225404
Ha ha! That’s why I never go into a death lodge without a Night Elf Druid.
… oh and … if #JamesRay plays WoW … I’m QUITTING!
[Reply]
# 6 March 2010 at 10:10 pm

Duff said:
You can judge for yourself from these “success stories” on his website, which include multiple accounts of men successfully encouraging married and/or committed monogamous women to sleep with them instead:
http://www.seduction.com/success.php
  0
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 9th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
oops–meant to post this above
  0
[Reply]
# 9 March 2010 at 5:21 pm

chips said:
the rich rossers strike again about where james ray learned his nlp shite in hawaii from a girly boy named matthew james son of tad james.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77450,82797#msg-82797
  +2
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Ooops, Missed your post when I referenced the same thing above, long after you did.
Kudos.
  0
[Reply]
# 9 March 2010 at 8:36 pm
» Death Ray Speaketh said:
[...] Arthur Ray :: ball-less wind bag :: can’t be satisfied with just stinking up Twitter.  He’s decided that :: “I just killed four people” :: is the perfect platform [...]
  0
# 29 March 2010 at 1:30 am
» Classless Action said:
[...] of dollars.  The fuckin’ audacity of some people!  I mean really :: Death Ray is tweeting his knowledge turds :: and making his shit home movies available free of fucking charge :: [...]
  0
# 9 April 2010 at 6:09 am
» Fabiani’s Shriveled Sachs said:
[...] have never veered from the swirling path towards the bottom of the toilet. See e.g. :: his twitter stream :: his sham interview with New York Magazine ::  and the class action lawsuit brought on by his [...]
  0
# 5 May 2010 at 2:24 pm

Beverley Hills Psychologist said:
Wow! interesting!
  0
[Reply]
# 3 June 2010 at 12:22 pm

Viola Bahrmasel said:
Hrmm that was weird, my remark acquired eaten. Anyway I needed to say that it’s good to know that someone else additionally mentioned this as I had bother discovering the same data elsewhere. This was the first place that told me the answer. Thanks.
  -1
[Reply]

Spammer Spotter Reply:
September 1st, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Spam.
  0
[Reply]
# 1 September 2011 at 1:02 pm

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