123 Comments »

colleens brother in law said:
These people are pathetic…they deserve what is coming to them…..let us not forget about michelle goulet…..she has been mighty quite…..there are at least 10 people involved in this scam that we know of….keep digging droid, we sure appreciate it…thank you…john
WINNER!! ::   +22
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:04 pm
@John ::
How could I forget Michelle :: that little charmer. She’d better start telling the truth :: and STOP supporting a murdering thug :: or I see embarrassment in her future {and maybe jail!}.
[Reply]

Bryan Neuman Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Was she officially laid off? Cuz she still states that she works for JRI on facebook.
  +3
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Jean D Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Here’s this link on Michelle. It states she worked there until November 2009. I posted below and will ask again? Does anyone know what her role will be in the trial? I was surprised to see her name NOT on the list.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michelle-goulet/8/4a2/a63
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 5:57 am

Hippo said:
Speaking of Megan and Josh, when is the Sheriff going to revoke their immunity deal and arrest them?
These two wizards need to understand that immunity is tit-for-tat. You don’t get immunity and then say “I don’t know” to all of the Sheriff’s questions.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:10 pm
@Hippo ::
Actually :: Megan and Josh never had immunity. There is no deal. They were just granted that one “free talk” :: where they could say whatever they wanted without fear of it leading to a prosecution . But they chose to say NOTHING at all because they are fucking idiots.
Now their skinny asses are just flapping in the wind … and time is running out.
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:51 pm
To Mr. Salty:
Ah, I misunderstood.
So are they going to be indicted?
  +3
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 9:10 am

Rafael Marquez said:
That’s who Death Ray reminds me of! The fake motivational guru in the movie Magnolia. I couldn’t remember what movie I saw that had a fake and dysfunctional motivational gooroo in it, who lied about everything just to get the cash.
Thanks for reminding me Droid!
You’d think these two gals would’ve seen the correlations between Death Ray and the Tom Cruise character, but maybe they just decided to turn a blind eye to it.
  +3
[Reply]

Actually... Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:39 am
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_(film)
“Frank T.J. Mackey (Tom Cruise), author of Seduce and Destroy, a self-help system for men to “tame” women. Mackey’s character was inspired by Ross Jeffries.[1]” – [1] Konow, David (January/February 2000). “PTA Meeting: An Interview with Paul Thomas Anderson”. Creative Screenwriting.
  +3
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Rafael Marquez Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:18 am
Nice
  +1
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Master Seductress Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:20 am
No, you mean the Ross Jeffries who has been on this very site providing insight into the crazy world of NLP manipulation? Maybe if he provides such insight, no one would ever go after him for his own culpability in the world of internet based manipulative selling.
  0
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Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Wait a minute.
A poster here speculates(without a shred of evidence or data) that RayRay was inspired by a performance that Tom Cruise gave in a movie, and somehow that translates into me being responsible for IM marketing scams?
Check your logic circuits, or have the SD use his diagnostic powers. You’ve got a faulty chip or two in there.
RJ
  -2
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:44 am
Well, this is clearly another one which is over my head.
How can anyone act like that and live with himself?
Revelling in a smug sense of superiority only goes so far.
It seems like a person would feel quite empty after a while.
  +5
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:53 am
I think these creeps were attracted to Tom Cruise’s character.When they met Ray,as SD mentioned,it was “love at first sight”. They admired him for these qualities and wanted to emulate that in themselves. That is how they ultimately became his appendages, I mean, apprentices.
Speaking of Suckcess,is this the same “witnessed-but-didn’t-recognize-the-woman-who-jumped” Greg Hartle?
http://www.desertgrowth.com/Greg_Profile.shtml
  +2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:17 pm
@JeanD
Yep! That sure is “sending you my love right now” Greg.
Same Greg who wasn’t man enough to handle the heat in the Death Lodge :: saved his own sorry ass :: but made no effort to save anyone else.
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:19 am
Hartle tried to duck out after the fifth round, but his boss “encouraged” him to return. Upon which he puked up in the middle of the lodge and was rendered a useless wreck. And of course poor Joshy bumped his head on one of those nasty sticks that were used to support the lodge, and couldn’t help save any lives coz he was too busy wondering if it was hurting or not.
See, Ray loves having tough guys around him, it reflects his inner strength.
  +5
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:03 pm
I thought Tom Cruise played a good role in the movie–but I could never figure out why Tom was unable to see the correlations between his scripted dialogue of lies and his chosen belief system of Co$.
  +6
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wondering why Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Tom was playing himself..
  +6
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stoic Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Ah, of course, Method acting, without the acting.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 9:16 am

evpstud said:
‘smile insanity’
that’s awesome
  +6
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hrm Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:35 pm
That is the most annoying thing about marketers, salesmen , etc.
The more likely it is they wouldn’t buy it if it was randomly sitting there, the more condescending you have to be.
All of the fake smiles, fake cheerfulness.
It’s the most annoying thing about marketing in all mediums today. The endless fake condescending crap around us 24/7.
  +6
[Reply]

Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 8:55 am
Says hrm: “All of the fake smiles, fake cheerfulness.”
Not to mention the fake *blessings* from the more “awakened” variety of marketer.
Apparently without irony, most of them claim a devotion to “authenticity.”
  +3
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 1:13 pm

Watching The Train Wreck said:
Droid,
Thanks for the laugh. Maybe your funniest post yet… the FAT picture of Megan takes the cake!
  +3
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Hippo Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Actually she looked more human when she was fat.
WINNER!! ::   +11
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Hurl Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:15 pm
You’re right. Her later, thinner appearance seems kind of gaunt and plastic. Kind of a “wax” look.
WINNER!! ::   +10
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SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:24 pm
@Hippo ::
I thought that was pretty striking too. “Fat” Megan looks like a normal person :: with a heart. Maybe the kind of person who wouldn’t be okay with watching people she knows lying face down in the mud screaming out for their lives.
I demand the return of fat Megan! Where are you fat Megan? Are you all the way dead … or are you still hiding in there??
[Reply]

AnnAustin Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:43 pm
I have to agree. “Fat” Megan looks like a normal person. Sure, she’s fat by Hollywood/media standards, but really not fat by everyday or midwestern standards. She looks normal, like she might be that girl from your kickball team who likes beer a little too much but tells great stories and is always positive. Salty and others hit the nail on the head. It appears that “Fat” Megan has a heart.
  +4
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 1:28 pm

J said:
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
“Kilos {which means pounds in French … or something}”
Kilograms, it means Kilograms.
Most of the world does weight measurement in kg and not pounds.
Not your best moment SD.
LOSER!! ::   -13
[Reply]

wondering why Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Salty knows what a kilogram is….He is just being Salty..
  +4
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Sheesh Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Your sense of humor is sadly lacking, J. Humor has no formal rules and can be non-sensical, often for a purpose (to make what is called a “point”). And that’s exactly what that was. There is therapy available that can help you adapt to the non-serious aspects of society if you want to look into it.
Not your best moment, J.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 2:50 pm

SD (author) said:
@J ::
Ah!!! What an embarassing mistake. I was so sure it was French … or something.
I suppose next you are going to tell me that Josh doesn’t have cats named She-she and Mr. BigglesBottom.
I should be more careful … or something
[Reply]

J Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:30 am
No, I completely believe you about the cats :)
  +6
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# 2 March 2010 at 3:54 pm

JC said:
hey hilarious and devastating.
anyone take notice that the magnolia character was inspired by Ross Jeffries and others, and that Ross Jeffries was commenting in the other threads here on the salty website about death ray?
how many of the RJ Ross Jeffries NLP seduction techniques does RJ see in the techniques of death ray, and how did the death ray customize those techniques for himself?
  0
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Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Where in the world is their any logical connection between Death Ray and what I teach?
A poster speculates that RayRay was inspired by a Tom Cruise character, and somehow I’m responsible for RayRay’s crimes?
I don’t see anything of what I teach in RayRay, and I’m beyond offended at the suggestion.
I find all LGATs beyond disgusting in their undermining of the self-trust of their attendees. In my events I do everything in my power to motivate students to ask questions and think critically and conceptually.
Please show me any evidence at all that RayRay has ever studied anything I’ve taught. No, make it easier: show me any evidence beyond a poster’s wild speculation that he even saw “Magnolia” much less found it inspiring.
This is just wild slander at its worst from people looking to score cheap shots at me for someone else’s crimes and insanity.
Shame on you..
RJ
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

Carlon Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Hey RJ,
How could JAR have been inspired by RJ who didn’t even inspire the Magnolia character? I thought Cruise and Anderson denied even knowing who you were…
…but then later said something to the effect of “oh, yeah…maybe we saw his stuff after all…perhaps..I mean, we don’t want to pay this guy royalties or anything…so, well, ,uh, anyway…don’t you feel the need for speed?”
  0
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Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 5:45 pm
To be fair to Mr. Jeffries, I find his actual personage more interesting than the character Tom Cruise plays in Magnolia.
And let’s put the responsibility on the man–James Ray killed 4 people. Mr. Jeffries encourages men to lie to women to get laid, but as far as I know is not responsible for anyone’s death.
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 4:38 pm

anonymous Bosch said:
Hey, hey:
PT Anderson got the inspiration for the TJ Mackey character based on his ADMITTED exaggeration of my “Ross Jeffries” character.
Don’t tell me because it’s in a movie, you believe it is an accurate depiction of reality?
RJ
P.S. Never got a penny from these guys either.
  0
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:56 pm
@RJ ::
I’m conflicted about you commenting here. I could make it stop :: because I’m a master of viciousness … but then again … you know shit I don’t know that I find interesting.
So let state my position for the record.
I fucking despise the misogyny. There is NOTHING about manipulating chicks out of their pants that I find respectable … or redeemable. And even if your BS did help some poor schlubs who otherwise couldn’t get within 100 yards of a female … it didn’t actually help them. There is no happiness hiding in sex void of emotion or connection.
On the other hand :: I looked long and hard {pun intended} at your marketing practices … and didn’t find anything nasty. At least on the surface … your business practices seem on the up-and-up … and you haven’t gone down the dark path that so many others in your “industry” have. And that … I kind of do respect.
I know I often sound like a moralist … but I’m not one. Don’t be a fucking criminal or I might eat you alive … but you can’t get onto my hit list just by being a dick/weirdo.
So don’t try and sell your crap here … but otherwise I am interested in your opinions on these subjects. And you have my email :: so please do give me the scoop on Eben … because that stupid little bitch needs to go.
How did P.T. Anderson know of you? Please tell me he attended one of your events or something.
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Salty,
I knew when I started commenting here that you’d take a hard look at my business and was not and am not afraid to stand the scrutiny.
Whatever you think of what I teach, I do business in an ethical way. I don’t do forced or hidden continuity. My testimonials are REAL(with permission I will change the writer’s name because of the shame and embarrassment factor). I refuse to endorse anyone or do joint ventures with anyone unless I really believe in their product, and that has cost me enormous amounts of money that I would have made with the biggest names in my niche simply because I routinely tell them, and I quote, “Fuck off. I will NEVER sell your stuff”. And when I DO endorse someone, which is very rare, I fully disclose the endorsement, and have done so far, far before any FTC rules that require it.
I’m happy to give you the scoop on Eben-I’ll email you.
As for PT Anderson: what I read in Creative Screenwriting is that he over-heard two guys talking about me in a recording studio.
RJ
P.S For the record, I don’t think in the least bit I’m a misogynist. I AM against men being manipulated by mass media into using methods to attract women that amount to 5 B’s: bullying, begging, buying, bullshit and booze.
And my students run the gamut from just looking to get laid to wanting to get married. What they have in common is they want a way to systematically create attraction in women, absent which you won’t get a relationship OR a one-nighter. You get “let’s be friends”.
WINNER!! ::   +10
[Reply]

Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 9:44 am
I have to admit I raised my eyebrows too at Ross’ enthusiastic participation and obvious glee at joining in the Death Ray feeding frenzy (hey, I’ve been in on the frenzy too, so I’m not judging him for that). But I totally get why Salty welcomes his participation despite his (Salty’s) own mixed feelings.
Ross, in my firebrand feminist days I too would have labeled you a “misogynist” without a second thought, but these days I really don’t think it’s as cut and dried as that. “Speed Seduction” sounds pretty crass on its face and yeah, like almost all women and many men I find the concept distasteful, and as you probably know, I’ve even snarked about it on other forums. But when I really think about it, it’s no less distasteful, and probably a few levels more honest, than those how-to-marry-a-rich-guy seminars that encourage women to look at their targets as a wallet with a cock. Besides, making these kinds of teachings public means that the “targets” can have at least some access too and can be more aware. That’s the theory, anyway.
Which brings me to one obvious question I have about “secret” techniques for anything, whether for getting laid or getting people to whip their credit cards out and buy a frauduct, as Salty likes to call them: by overuse, don’t many of these strategies become less effective? Mock Me Baby’s comment below (Mar 3, 8:25 AM), as well as some other comments here, would seem to suggest this.
As for Eben… well, when I think of him all I can think of is his disciple Steve Pervlina, and Steve’s “polyamory” experiment that morphed into a D/s arrangement with a “yummy sex slave” that turned into true love with a hardcore Trekkie…but that’s another heartwarming love story, and probably doesn’t belong on these pages. I’m rambling now so I’ll shut up.
  +5
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Dale Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
You bring up a good point, Connie. There is no shortage of training and books and so forth on both sides of the gender coin. All suggesting that people can have an advantage (over the competition, human nature, or general factors that can put one at some disadvantage in the mating ‘game’).
Purists and romanticists may see no place in courtship for psychology and measured interaction, but if it’s taking place around you regardless (and affecting your world), it might be wise to have at least a basic understanding of it all.
PR’s marketing presentation casts a fairly wide net in its appeal, obviously because he is trying to earn a living and not omit a market segment. I suspect there is a dividing line somewhere in there where many people here would find it acceptable human skills training (just like seminars about dealing with a difficult boss, for example). It’s those hard-edged peripheral aspects that make us squirm, such as “how to score in one night” and so forth.
I have to admit that this also makes me a bit uncomfortable, but for the reason Connie mentioned, I don’t feel compelled to join the obligatory knee jerk condemnation of PR that some here are conpelled to attach to the beginning of their comments.
  +1
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Dale Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 2:52 pm
And Connie…speaking of Steve Pavlina – wow, did he jump off the diving board with his surprising public “life changes.” I’m still trying to haul my jaw back up and into place. Everyone should go over to Cosmic Connie’s blog and read her post about that.
  +1
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Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Ross, your older materials are explicitly misogynist and have a tone of anger towards women I’ve rarely read anywhere. Admittedly, I did read some of them, as embarrassed as I am to admit it, when I was a young clueless man. They helped me in as far as I avoided your advice and sought my own heartfelt way of expressing myself.
The videos for your newer product lack this anger, however, although still encourage men to lie and cheat in order to meet their sexual needs in relationship. While this may be a step up from outright rape, it is still not a foundation for healthy, mature relationship. The use of false stories (who f*cking watches the Discovery Channel?!?) and fake “quotes” (“my friend was telling me about this time…”) also makes your “no bullshit” line totally lack credibility. “Speed Seduction” is training in bullshitting. It’s Smooth Talking the Ladies 101. A little smooth talk can be a useful thing, but it can easily become a power trip.
Despite that, you do seem to have some standards that I also respect, especially around certain kinds of business integrity. I recognize that we all have different levels of integrity in different areas of life. I for one am a shitty entrepreneur, but I don’t lie to my girlfriend about conversations I never had in order to get her hot and bothered.
I also think you are an intelligent man and an excellent teacher–for better or worse I suppose. You are also more honest than Pagan–he pretends his system of dominance over women is about “dating.” At least you are honest that your stuff is about sex, plain and simple.
  +3
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wondering why Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Thank you Salty..I like the way you think!
  +2
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Thumbs Up Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:09 pm
re: “And you have my email :: so please do give me the scoop on Eben … because that stupid little bitch needs to go.”
  +3
[Reply]

hrm Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:20 pm
Yeah…
Super curious about the “scoop on Eben”.
Because, to most people in the IM community, he is dirt-free.
You can pick on him for his monotone voice, but other than that, he’s just another salesman that hasn’t done any crazy shit that could really be called out on.
  +1
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Ross Jeffries said:
‘P.S. Never got a penny from these guys either.’
That must have hurt.
I don’t like what you do, but I do appreciate the informative comments you have made here and don’t think that you can be equated with or held in any way responsible for the nefarious deeds of Death Ray.
Is your satan worshiping TV appearance still available online? I’ve been reading up on it and it sounds a hoot.
  +2
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 5:15 pm

T.J. Mackey said:
Hey watch it now.
Even I am uncomfortable with you linking me to James A. Ray.
You guys are way out of line. You sick fucks.
  0
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:09 pm
You better “wise up” Mackey. What kind of dick-licker refuses to listen to Amiee Mann? She’s the bomb!
[Reply]

T.J. Mackey Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Listen, I got incredible father issues and have severe hate for the man running through my veins every second. I am the kind of guy that will kick the shit out of any dog that comes within licking distance. I am just stating that comparing me to James Ray… now that is just wrong.
Besides, why would I listen to some broad who sings a poignant, touching song that almost made me cry? That doesn’t fit with who I am as an alpha male.
  +2
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# 2 March 2010 at 5:53 pm

seduce and destroy said:
yo death ray studied under tony robbins and worked for tony robbins and robbins knows all the nlp stuff as he was there at the beginning. death ray learned much of his material from tony robbins and many others.
ross jeffries took the nlp material and applied it to guys seducing women and getting laid quickly, called fast seduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community
death ray used the same nlp seduction material on his female clients and ladies of darkness. death ray is a seducer.
seduce and destroy.
why is ross jeffries so defensive?
of course death ray is Magnolia, that is what he has done. Magnolia is about all of these seduce and destroy scumbags.
death ray has learned and used all of the same nlp seduction material, as well as anything else he could get his hands on.
james ray is seduce and destroy. http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Seduce_and_Destroy
this is not a ross jeffries seminar and RJ does not define reality. the crimes by death ray are committed by death ray, but he learned his material from others in the seduction and lgat seminar business
james ray uses and abuses the seduction material first popularized by ross jeffries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community
The seduction community’s origins date back to Ross Jeffries, who promotes a collection of Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) techniques called “Speed Seduction” (SS).
  +1
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:44 pm
What you are saying is just technically and factually incorrect. LGATS are using classic brainwashing stuff from the ChiComs. If they are using NLP, it’s clonky and clumsy and a very small part of what they are doing.
Again, check out Robert J. Lifton’s work. And also “Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power.”
I HAVE seen some of the marketing scumbags that Salty goes after attempt to use NLP language patterns, but they are pretty piss poor.
The only good examples I’ve seen have been in some very good copywriting done in the financial market/investment game. I don’t know who writes them, but he is good: very, very good. Even I could learn from whomever this is. It’s not John Carlton, but someone at his level of copywriting ability.
  +4
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J Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:38 am
Point us in the direction of those sales letters/copywriting please :)
  +1
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Lots of people learn martial arts. A handful of folks kill other people with their bare hands, having learned martial arts. Learning or teaching martial arts is not a crime. One teacher of martial arts is not equivalent to another. Each man gets his own trial in court.
  +2
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 6:00 pm

not RJ said:
RJ doesn’t need to get all defensive here.
RJ is actually quite knowledgeable about nlp and seduction, he bascially started it, so he could shed some technical info on how its done, if he chooses to.
but if he starts screaming that death ray is not using any techniques that have been derived from nlp seduction, then that is a smokescreen.
there are many psychos who have taken the nlp seduction stuff and use it.
death ray has used it and much else, on his rays ladies of death to control them and get them to do things like cover up deaths for him,and give him all their money.
its the logical extension of nlp seduction for the psycho scumbag, to not just have sex with the women, but to turn them into a harem of followers who do your dirty work and give you every dollar they can’t afford to do whatever you tell them to do. its like an lgat seducer pimp of mind control.
  +2
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:38 pm
I don’t know what DeathRay is using, with regard to NLP. I’ve never looked at or listened to any of his stuff.
I can tell you that compliance technology doesn’t require NLP at all, and while LGATS may or may not use some NLP, they are based largely on on what Robert J. Lifton calls “millieu control” which has nothing whatsoever to do with NLP, and, in fact, owes much more to classic brainwashing methods pioneered by the Communist Chinese.
Check this out:
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_lifton2.htm
Now, I already responded to a poster yesterday who asked how I thought DeathRay seduced women, and I gave him my educated guess. Go find that post and someone re-quote it. It has nothing to do with NLP.
Finally, NLP, properly defined, is not the techniques like language patterns, commands, etc. It is a set of attention direction filters and beliefs about subjective experience-how to observe it and how to model it to copy human excellence. The methodology of modeling is NLP-the trail of techniques that it leaves behind are what the knuckle-draggers and mouth-breathers like Robbins teach.
I’ve been to a couple of Robbins events and his NLP skills were actually pitiable. His real “skill” is in creation a charismatic environment with lots of group dynamics, where people are led to consistently make public commitments to progressively greater levels of compliance and obedience.
One illustration: I remember Robbins was playing a game called Simon Says. We all know that game.
He had something like 50 people on stage. He finally narrowed it down to one “lucky” winner who listened to him perfectly and only obeyed him to the letter when he said “Simon Says”.
Everyone(there were thousands in the room) were then instructed to give a standing ovation to the winner, who was lauded for being able to follow directions literally, which Robbins held as being the master key to “success” when you want to model a master!
I almost barfed in my mouth when as I thought to myself, “The fucker just equated obeying his every word, literally, without question, with being the best sign and proof of being a winner. And he’s just reinforced it with unanimous approval from the group, ON COMMAND! Slick AND sick!”
RJ
Ok. One more. At one of his even bigger events, he was giving his spiel. At one point had people repeat after him like this:
TR: I am the voice
10,000 sheep, in unison: I am the voice
TR: I will lead and not follow
10,000 sheep(totally missing the irony) I will lead and not follow
I swear on my sac, ala Monty Python’s Life of Brian, I yelled out at the top of my voice, “I won’t!”
Here is the even funnier thing. Tony went on for another 15 minutes and then told everyone they could have a 15 minute break. The 10,00 LEADERS dutifully filed out like cattle to go to the bathroom, buy snacks at the concessions stands. I went from stand to stand, asking, “If you are leaders, why did you all take a break when Tony told you to?”
No one found it funny. And even though there were lots of hot chicks, it was so stupid, I had to leave.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

NOW I AM THE VOICE! Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I WILL LEAD NOT FOLLOW! I WILL BELIEVE NOT DOUBT! I WILL CREATE NOT DESTROY! I AM A FORCE FOR GOOD! I AM A LEADER! DEFY THE ODDS!!!! SET A NEW STANDARD! STEP UP! STEP UP! STEP THE FUCK UP BITCHES!!!
(1:00 -- 6:25)
The best part is the army music in the background:
And you better not fucking forget to ASSOCIATE CERTAINTY to Tonys bullshit! Also a nice touch of metaphorically suggesting a new identity after the 6:30 mark. You know, just to anchor the feeling with some logical bullshit to comb it over.
After watching this, it’s hard to tell if this is a LGAT or a nazi rally (probably a little of both)
  +5
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6:04-6:05 Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Just saw this now…
6:04 … Did Tony do a Nazi Salute?
  +2
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_cartman_ Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Is that lurch from the Addams Family…..oh wait…no….that’s Tony Robbins…Why does he clap like he just painted his nails or something?
  +4
[Reply]

Feather Boa-Constricter Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:23 pm
I bet Tilly the Killer Whale was digging on this shit before turning her trainer into a chew toy. There is nothing more powerful than a headset mic!
  +1
[Reply]

Hoshun Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:52 pm
That was a very moving speech. Bowel moving. The music could have been better though (I could see it really clicking with ragtime). Tony can sure empower people – to buy his other products.
  +3
[Reply]

hrm Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:30 am
Fuck….
Tony Robbins creeps me out…
I mean, more than 2 girls 1 cup.
  0
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Ok, this is ME teaching at a recent seminar. I don’t pump people up with this kind of “Rah rah rah” crap. I find the louder the volume, the lower the clarity, when it comes to teaching.
If what you are teaching is intelligent and valid you:
*don’t need to keep people awake for 20 hours and sleep deprive them
*you don’t need to undermine their self-trust by getting them to agree to the most insane intellectual delusions, like “you are 100% the cause of everything in your life”.
*you don’t need to bond them to the group by having them confess their deepest “ruins” and “sins” and reveal their emotional traumas
*you don’t need to proclaim that you have “THE TRUTH with a big T” that is perfect, unchangeable, and, by the way, given to you either by Divine Revelation, the Space Brothers, Jesus
*you don’t have to claim or display special powers or divine or other-than-human heritage or origin for yourself
*you don’t have to shout down questions, turn any question back on the questioner as proof they are wrong, “entheta”, sinful, psychotic, damned, an “outsider” etc
*you don’t need to build compliance by assigning them meaningless ordeals, the only point of which is to get them used to obeying you
YOU JUST FUCKING TEACH INTELLIGENTLY, ENCOURAGE INDEPENDENT THOUGHT AND FREE THINKING, AND LET THE WORK SPEAK FOR ITSELF GODDAMN IT.
Here’s a clip from a recent seminar:
http://www.motionbox.com/videos/d499deb31f1ae3c75c
Notice that I am encouraging students to do something radically ANTI-cultish, which is to embrace uncertainty.
RJ
  +1
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:05 pm
That is a scary vid of Tony Robbins. All those attendees need to be shown film footage of the Nuremberg rallies to show them what they are letting themselves in for.
  +2
[Reply]

Robbins... Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 10:23 pm
If you haven’t seen it yet…
“The Wave”
Part 1:
Part 2:
  +2
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Manson managed to collect and control a harem of women using basic cult tech long before Bandler and Grinder dreamed up NLP.
Manipulating basic human needs in vulnerable people has long sufficed in cult recruitment without recourse to NLP.
While I’ve had some good results from NLP techniques (time lines) that I’ve experimented with myself, I’m not sold that it can accomplish much of anything that cannot be attributed to other psychological persuasions.
  +6
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Manson and Ray have a great deal in common. Once Ray is locked up, they’ll be even more alike. And Ray can have a fun myspace and facebook operated by his devoted followers,too.
http://www.myspace.com/liecharliemanson
  0
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Any freshman psychology student knows enough psychology to gain compliance enough if bold/psychopathic enough. The Milgram experiment is a classic example–very simple, just ask the experimenter to continue from a position of authority. “The experiment demands that you continue.”
Yes, NLP can and has been used to manipulate others. But NLP is often a scapegoat. Learning NLP you can also discover how you are manipulating others already and *stop* doing so.
*Any* knowledge of language, psychology, advertising, communication, philosophy, or culture can be used to manipulate others. Plenty of untrained people lie and manipulate others every day in VERY harmful ways.
I also agree with Jeffries’ critique of Robbins’ seminars. I was horrified by the same things, especially when all the group conformity was utilized to sell his “Mastery University” multiple thousands of dollars “advanced” LGAT package in the most unethical sales pitch I’ve ever seen by far.
  +3
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:23 pm
I’ll add that the scariest thing about things like JAR’s Spiritual Warrior is not that there are people who know all these crazy secret techniques and control the rest of us, but that any idiot loser can do it, just like anybody can pick up a gun and fire it. JAR is proof.
  +5
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 6:39 am
Great film, ‘The Wave.’ Should be on all schools curriculum.
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 6:14 pm

SD (author) said:
It’s not
What you thought
When you first began it
You got
What you want
Now you can hardly stand it though,
By now you know
It’s not going to stop
‘Til you wise up
[Reply]

Carlon Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Aimee Mann rules…awesome SD
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 6:20 pm

jd said:
if Megan and her wife Josh did move from Best Buy to being Rays senior slaves so fast, its because Ray picked clueless folks he could brainwash and control quickly and easily.
if that is the case there is a chance they will crack before the shit hits the fan and start telling the truth, maybe
  +5
[Reply]

Hoshun O'Bryan Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 2:37 am
Maybe he was just looking to score some discounted extended warranties. My dad (P.D.F. O’Bryan) always said, “never look for a complicated reason when a simple one will doo-doo.”
  +6
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 pm
This is a common myth. “Only idiots and gullible people join cults.” It’s simply not true. We are all vulnerable to such influences.
  +3
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:57 pm
I’d guess that what Death Ray saw in Megan (his primary target) was a willingness to obey without question, in Josh a willingness to be led and in both of them a hunger to be part of his fantasy of celebrity and power that made them ripe for exploitation.
None of which excuses them from the responsibility of going along with his murderous scam.
  +3
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 6:34 pm

Tom Cruise said:
Tom Cruise doesn’t see himself being like T.J. Mackey. He’s sees himself as being a promoter of enlightenment through Scientology and his genius LRH.
Its all you SP’s who deserve damnation and hellfire.
  +5
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 6:42 pm

SD (author) said:
I’ll bet that JAR hasn’t even seen Magnolia ::
from the Fortune article …
When I asked him what he thought about the Oscar-winning movie “Little Miss Sunshine,” which featured a struggling motivational speaker, he had not heard of it.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/03/pf/siklos_James_Ray.fortune/index2.htm
Fake-God only cares about Fake-God. No time for distractions.
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 8:46 pm

rb said:
Be highly sceptical of the proclamations by Ross Jeffries of what NLP is or is not, how it is labelled, and how it is used and by who.
Tony Robbins is not shitty at NLP, even Richard Bandler has said Robbins is a genius in how he used NLP on people, that is after Robbins was forced to send Bandler large checks for copying everything.
When RJ says Robbins is pitiful at NLP, RJ is either blind or is playing a semantic word game for his own reasons.
The techniques discovered using NLP were transfered to many areas, and as said in many places, using NLP to model persuasion is known generally as NLP persuasion engineering, which was then also applied to getting women into bed, and is also now being used in all sorts of seminars to increase sales.
What NLP experts love to do is deliberately deflect the subject of questions about NLP abuses, and move it away from the actual subject, into a confusing subset on word definitions. Its impossible to get a straight answer out of almost anyone who does any version of NLP for a living, if they are being challenged on the abuses of persuasion tech discovered and used in the NLP field.
In business, most people generally don’t like slitting their own throats.
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Mock Me Baby Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 8:25 am
You are giving NLP more credit than it is due.
First, what is NLP?
Well Bandler would like you to think it is what RJ says. A way of modeling that leaves a trail of techniques.
Unfortunately this has made EVERYTHING and ANYTHING someone wants to associate with NLP – NLP. Good marketing push on Bandlers part.
What NLP really is…
A codification of therapeutic techniques using an outdated model of semantics.
The codification includes techniques by Virginia Satir, Milton Erickson, Fritz Perls and others.
It also includes a hodgepodge of ideas from folks like Gregory Bateson and Alfred Korzybski.
Calling any use of language to persuade NLP has been a fad for a long time. And it’s been ridiculous for a long time.
It would be the same as me coming up with a codification of what Tiger Woods does and then calling it Neuro Power Golf and then everyone saying that EVERY golfer is using NPG because they used one of the techniques I taught. RIDICULOUS on multiple levels.
Anyway…
RJ learned to market. Most likely – initially – from Gary Halbert. He wrote a great sales letter and used NLP as the “secret technology” component of that letter. It’s still one of the best sales letters of all time in my opinion, although he doesn’t use it anymore it seems.
But that’s another discussion…
For those that see NLP in everything… wake up. Most of the techniques used by LGAT and these scammers are NOT NLP even if the person using the techniques use a hypnotic pattern from Milton Erickson here and there or if they “chunk down” using something Virginia Satir would’ve used.
The techniques of mass persuasion AND face to face persuasion were around long before Bandler ran to John Grinder for help and they’ve been further advanced since then independently of their influence.
  +5
[Reply]

Ross Jeffries Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 10:38 am
MOSTLY correct.
And thanks for the kudos on the sales letter.
But I maintain that NLP IS mostly about the modeling methodology.
You are 100% about LGATS and cults and what actually powers what they do.
Look: I’d love to wax on wise about this subject, but here are some reading references:
1.Thought Reform And The Psychology Of Totalism-Robert J. Lifton
2. The Guru Papers: Masks Of Authoritarian Power-Joel Kramer
3. Coercion-Douglas Rushkoff
RJ
  +2
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:40 pm
NLP is a relatively obscure approach to analyzing communication and subjective experience for what it does pragmatically. That’s it. Unfortunately there is an enormous temptation to use this knowledge for not so nice ends once you know how (usually for sex and sales). Even more unfortunately some NLP trainers have encouraged bad behavior–often through their own example and their marketing.
Even more obscurely, there are therapists and nice people who also study NLP to help with things like phobias, anxiety, and the like.
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 10:34 pm

Slightly Off Topic - But Worth Watching... said:
SD – off topic, but worth watching if you haven’t seen it yet.
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/#tab1
Every single thing at the page above is just ridiculous. Really shows dark inner workings of a cult (in this case Scientology). There are a ton of films at the link above, but it’s just unbelievable.
  +2
[Reply]

Wow Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 12:18 am
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/hawkins.shtml
  0
[Reply]
# 2 March 2010 at 11:57 pm

Detached Observer said:
This could be apples to oranges but I was reading this article of Ex-NBA player Jayson Williams, who recently got 5 years in prison for the fatal shooting of his limo driver back in 2002.
Reading the article I couldn’t help but think of this whole James Ray fiasco because of similar issues. Jayson Williams didn’t intend to shoot his limo diver and kill him, but because he was being reckless with his shotgun, pointing it at someone, it went off and struck him in the chest, killing him. Immediately afterward, he tried to cover up the shooting by telling his closest friends to lie about what happened and putting the shotgun in the victims hands to make it appear as a suicide.
Initially the jury was deadlocked on a reckless manslaughter charge and two years later he was acquitted of an aggravated manslaughter charge. Instead he is doing 5 years in prison for four counts of covering up the shooting.
My initial thoughts on why the jury was deadlocked and later he was acquitted of aggravated manslaughter is because he was a well known, and well liked basketball player and he soon admitted to what really went on. So they pushed the charge of covering up the shooting and got a guilty verdict. James Ray on the other hand… well we know what we are dealing with there. He is out trying to still figure what went on.
It just made me think of Josh and Megan Frederickson also and their obvious lies when they had their “free talk.” I really feel that they should have some responsibility in what they did trying to destroy evidence before the investigators got there. And then becoming members of the “Know Nothing Party” soon after. That is a cover up right? I mean Jayson Williams’ close friends wanted no part of the cover up, they said what really went on and their souls and free because of it. I think Megan and Josh could of learned something from that, or maybe it isn’t too late for them to come clean. Maybe they will stumble upon this article and see there are definite repercussions for covering up something that killed people and lying to investigators.
http://devwww.azcentral.com/sports/azetc/articles/2010/02/23/20100223jayson-williams-sentencing.html
I can only hope.
  +3
[Reply]

Jamo Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:04 pm
I think Ray’s situation is much worse because he deliberatly set-up the environment (super hot sweat lodge) that caused the deaths. In the case of the gun shot, it was a spontaineous accident. Big difference. Plus Ray had multiple opportunities to intercede and prevent the deaths from occuring. Instead he did the opposite by urging people to stay in. Jayson had no such opportunity. Once the trigger was pressed accidently, nothing could be done.
  +2
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:56 pm
To Jamo:
Not only that, but Ray had done multiple death lodges and knew there were problems.
  +1
[Reply]

Detached Observer Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 7:22 pm
I agree totally with your point of Jason having no opportunity to reverse his actions. Where as James Ray had what? Two hours or to be conservative at least an hour to see to it that people were not going to be harmed while inside the sweat lodge.
Of course he had years to reverse his decision to push people past their limits and as close to the door of death as he did.
Yes James Ray is way worse.
  +2
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 5:59 am
Ray not only had forewarnings, but an obvious profit motive, not to mention a wacko ideology which he is still spouting about death being the fault of the victim.
  +5
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 12:06 pm

MazeMan said:
Hmmm…. I wonder if Josh and Megan read this blog. Nah, I wouldn’t expect them to raise their hands if they did. Just wondering out loud.
The term “Death Ray” has been used throughout this site to refer to James Ray. It got me curious, so for yucks and chuckles, I entered “death ray” (w/o quotes) into Google. And wouldn’t you know it, this blog comes up #10 on the first page. And that term as competition from 63,100,000 sites. Heh.
BTW, how are people able to embed YouTube videos in the comments? I tried once unsuccessfully using the YT embed code. Copied and pasted yet the video didn’t appear in the comment once posted. Anyone?
  +1
[Reply]

Bob Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Just insert a “v” in the URL, like so:
httpv (followed by the rest as usual).
Only embeds youtube vids, though.
  +2
[Reply]

Bob Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Oh, and you don’t use the youtube provided ‘embed’ code. Use the actual URL from the youtube page itself that contains the video.
  +1
[Reply]

MazeMan Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 5:47 pm
@Bob- Thanks for the tips. Appreciated!
  0
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 2:15 pm

the dirt said:
ladies, a little taste of RJ to wet your beaks.
ross jeffries : Thundercat’s Seduction Lair http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/tag/ross-jeffries/
Silver Fox Alert: Silver Fox Alert! Ross Jeffries. http://silverfoxalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/silver-fox-alert-ross-jeffries.html
http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2008/07/07/ross-jeffries-responds-to-wendi-friesens-appology/
http://www.puadirt.com/ross-jeffries-worships-satan/
  +2
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Oh, dear. I seem to be having trouble with my gag reflex.
  +5
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Engineering controversy seems to be Ross Jeffries main marketing technique. I’m quite peeved that the satan-worshiping clip has been removed, I was looking forward to seeing a conservative satanist in full flow!
  +2
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:10 am
For us ladies, a lovely sorbet to cleanse the palate after the previous video:
  +5
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:13 am
Hilarious, Hippo.
I’ll have some of what he’s having!
  0
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 8:35 am
To Stoic:
I think humor is the best medicine.
Now I won’t have to wash my eyes out with bleach after viewing “The Dirt’s” links.
  +2
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 3:52 pm

RD said:
Perhaps off topic … but the ‘wisdom’ of JR is just another talking-plagiarism-parrot trick which, you’ve got to hand it to him, he is consistent. He is alternating between botched biblical references, but does credit the bible at least a few times in his tweets … but has failed to credit the rest. Likely source for some ….
The contemporary philosopher P. M.S. Hacker from the ‘school’ of the renowned Ludwig Wittgenstein. Although JR seems to have dug up a pretty obscure paper called “Are Secondary Qualities Relative?” published by Hacker in the Oxford University Press journal called MIND. Properly posted it should more like this:
“If secondary qualities are not relative, are the concepts of secondary qualities in some sense relative?” P.M.S. Hacker
Bible / borrowed philosophy then back to the bible again … oh well, guess you have to recall that the occupation he listed for himself in the film, The Secret was ‘ James Arthur Ray, philosopher’ …… it adds to the mystique.
  +3
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 1:42 am
Wittgenstein was a trip. My senior philosophy course was on Wittgenstein. I was convinced for the first 2 months of reading him that he was insane, but then started to understand what he was saying in the last month and considered him a genius. He was probably a bit of both.
But JAR on the other hand is just insane, IMHO. Although I do think he probably believes his own self-serving incoherent philosophy.
  +2
[Reply]
# 3 March 2010 at 9:24 pm

San Fran said:
the rick rossers found a quote with Josh Fredrickson pimping for Rays 2010 seminars in 2 weeks over in San Fran
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,77450,82620#msg-82620
http://www.harmonicwealthweekend.com/index.php?goal=1
here are the next scheduled Harmonic Wealth Weekends:
San Francisco, CA (Mar 19-20, 2010)
Chicago, IL (Jun 4-5, 2010).
Upon returning home, all areas of my life have improved dramatically. I have successfully started 3 internet businesses, my business and personal relationships have grown ten-fold, my spirituality is at new heights and I am now engaged to an amazing woman with our dream wedding around the corner.
— Joshua Fredrickson
  +2
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:19 am
Updated Josh Fredrickson testimonial:
And in the longer time frame, I’ve been involved in the unecessary deaths of four paying customers, lost my job and am still promoting the twisted freak who is responsible for all this horror.
I didn’t get this far with Herbalife.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Cosmic Connie Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Droid, you’re so lucky. Not only is David Squirmer going to be coming to Your Town on March 18, but you get Death Ray there on June 4-5. So, are you going to apply for a Harmonic Wealth Weekend scholarship ($200 off the admission price)?
Good discussion on the Rick Ross forum, by the way.
  +2
[Reply]

_cartman_ Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 10:26 am
And the events are free…fill it with friends, family and Colleagues…allow them to ask him the tough questions :)
Just when he thought it was safe to cross the Ocean…hey maybe a special guest attendee Ben Fordham..from a current affair….
People should hand out flyers to the participants in each of their respective locations about his non-paying ways….allow people to make an informed decision….
…maybe he’ll hide in the bathroom for the whole seminar…
WINNER!! ::   +8
[Reply]

Duff Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
When Ray came to my town, I confronted him personally along with a friend of mine, in a room full of about 500 people.
Conformity cannot occur in the presence of dissent.
  +6
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Legal non-violent protests at any of these events must be seriously considered. DarknessRay in San Francisco March 19-20 Chicago June 4-5.
  +2
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
I think it was Anticult who was inquiring on rickross as to whether anyone had the exact location of the San Francisco seminar. I poked around but couldn’t find anything.
I am wondering if they are only giving the location info out to the attendees–which would mean that somebody would actually have to register, pay, then reverse the charges on their credit card.
  +1
[Reply]
# 5 March 2010 at 12:42 am

Yakaru said:
Document just uploaded from yavapai: list of witnesses to be called by the prosecution, including about 30 police and about 130 others. and point 2 mentions:
“All statements of the defendant and of any person who will be tried with him”
Is that just a formality or is there more to it?
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/03-04-2010%20MISCELLANEOUS-DISCLOSURE-SUPPLEMENTAL%20DISCLOSURE.pdf
  +3
[Reply]

Hippo Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
So what happens next?
  +1
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
I think March 26 is a hearing where a trial date will be set.
  +1
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Thank you Yakaru I was wondering about the date.
  0
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 5th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
There’s a police officer from Carlsbad on this list.
  0
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 6th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Check it out ::
#135 Alexis Peters — NorthStar Orthodontics
A long-time co-worker of Colleen’s!
[Reply]

Jean D Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Where is hell is Michelle Goulet? Does anyone know what’s going on with her? I don’t know exactly how all this works, but if she’s not on the Prosecution’s list, does that mean she’s a witness for the Defense?
  0
[Reply]

wondering why Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Yes, I too have been wondering abut Michelle..One of the Detectives seemed to very interested in asking about her on one of the interviews…
  0
[Reply]

SD Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
The State has an obligation to provide the defense with info about possible witnesses :: and about the evidence that it plans to present :: in order to allow the defendant a fair opportunity to prepare an adequate defense.
The defense doesn’t have the same obligations toward the State.
I’m not sure what’s going on with Michelle :: or why she wouldn’t be named. Last time I heard :: she was still fiercely loyal to Death Ray. Hopefully that will change before the final reckoning.
[Reply]

Yakaru Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
As far as I know, Manic Michele wasn’t at the sweat lodge. She attended it in 2008, at the perfectly normal sweat lodge where people were keeling over and passing out and it looked like a war zone, as is perfectly normal in sweat lodges. Her boyfriend was one who had to be carried out and started freaking out and became violent when he came to, because he’d been separated from her, or something. Just the normal stuff.
She probably escaped indictment in this case, but if the San Diego police ever get around to investigating Colleen’s death, she would be looking at an indictment for destroying and fabricating evidence, just like Mad Meg and Doormat Josh are for the death lodge.
Can the Yavapai police press charges relating to Colleen’s death?
  +1
[Reply]

stoic Reply:
March 7th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
The fact that they didn’t attend the fatal deathlodge hasn’t stopped the authorities from calling on attendees from previous years as witnesses.
A very involved staff-member, Michelle, didn’t attend the fatal event so isn’t even questioned?
I don’t buy that, and I doubt the YCSO does either.
I’m hoping that the YCSO are keeping some cards close to their collective chest.
  +1
[Reply]
# 5 March 2010 at 2:44 pm

noodlebowl said:
(PS this is not an attempt to skew the discussion. I want to make sure Duff and others have a chance to read these items–theyre great good fun)
For Duff and others interested in Wittgenstein there is a new book by Auberon Waugh entitled The House of Wittgenstein: A Family at War Splendour
http://www.google.com/search?q=wittgenstein%20gottlieb&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&source=hp&btnG=Google+Search
It is interesting you report that you felt strange whilst studying Wittgenstein. He may, through his writtings have transmitted the very fraught emotional life of his own family–riddled with suicides.
Wittgenstein grew up in a family where an authoritarian father forbade everyone to talk about their two or three siblings and in laws who committed suicide or went insane.
This New Yorker book review is most interesting.
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2009/04/06/090406crbo_books_gottlieb
If the tragic deaths of your brothers are forbidden topics of discussion this creates zones of silence and imposed emotional and psychological censorship. It was in this environment that Wittegenstein came up with his dictum, of that which we cannot speak, of that we must be silent.
But he never said it was his authoritarian and tyrannical father who imposed that silence as emotional tyranny. HE did not question why they had to be silent in the first place. Instead, he created a whole system of philosophy that rationalized the abnormal flow of emotion and thought within the whole family–a family I would call a proto dictatorship.
“Wittgenstein was a trip. My senior philosophy course was on Wittgenstein. I was convinced for the first 2 months of reading him that he was insane, but then started to understand what he was saying in the last month and considered him a genius. He was probably a bit of both.”
And..A very great ‘catch’ for Werner Erhard was when he recruited WW Bartley III a professor of philosophy who had studied with Sir Karl Popper, was friends with him and later had a falling out.
(One wonders whether Bartley became attached to Werner Erhard because he longed for a mentor) Bartley also wrote a book about Wittgenstein’s private life, suggesting it was important that this be known so as to understand Wittgensteins work.
However, Bartley became quite an acolyte of Werner Erhard and was on the board of directors for EST. He died in 1990. He authoried a highly laudatory biography of Erhard and EST entitled Werner Erhard: Transformation of a Man. (Compare it with Pressmans volume, Outrageous Betrayal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Warren_Bartley
Here is a dialogue between Bartely and Jonathan Lieberson in NY Review of books.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/7784
“The issue which continues to divide us Bartley vs Leiberson)
is this:
I regard the central moral issue for all those who wish to help themselves as the discovery of means of marshalling their capacities, enlarging their sensitivity, and introducing intelligent control, direction, and significance into their lives.
Est, on the other hand, substitutes for this issue *an abusive and upsetting training together with a handful of sterile generalities about Perfection and the Self* which, I beg to differ, have a great deal to do with these crucial life-choices.
As against Professor Bartley, Werner Erhard, Valerie Harper, John Denver, and others, I would suggest that if blowing our minds is not to be a worthless spasm, it seems advisable to have a good and specific reason for doing it and at least a thumbnail sketch of how intelligent reconstruction is to proceed.”
  0
[Reply]

Neil Reply:
March 6th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Wittgenstein, Joseph Beuys, Richard Long and “Zen and the…” by Robert Persig, were a constant headfuck at uni.
Thank G*d I’m thick now.
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[Reply]
# 6 March 2010 at 10:43 am
» Death Ray’s Mind Games said:
[...] Harris :: and his cats {no relation to SheShe and Mr. BigglesBottom} :: did a great job of contextualizing the Death Lodge horror within the larger overall horror. [...]
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# 2 July 2010 at 3:40 pm
» The Final Four said:
[...] Last March a reader embedded a Tony Robbins video into the comments … [...]
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# 6 July 2010 at 5:56 am

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