The Doxing of Michelle Celarier



NYPost reporter Michelle Celarier has always been my biggest fan :: she told me so herself … right before she accused me of attempting to blackmail her. She’s fun like that.

Michelle has written dozens of short :: obsequiously pro-Ackman / anti-Herbalife … articles over the past year and a half. But in my considered estimation :: she has done more harm to the cause of stopping Herbalife than any other single person … and that by some margin.

Having failed to slow her disaster train of suckbagery via all the non-public mechanisms I could concoct :: I reluctantly bring this story here … to a site that barely exists because free speech on the Internet is a lie.

rainy day introductions

This is Michelle Celarier’s strange idea of biggest fandom …


… all mentions of a single fake robot post in which Michelle {barely} got a mention. Michelle fucking loves to mention a Michelle mention.

on michelle

Michelle also loves to mention Bill Ackman … and the central position that she’s decided he’s going to occupy in her life. Spend more than three minutes talking to her … and she’ll start namedropping Bill Ackman on your ass like a 16 year old meangirl talking up her spot on the cheerleading squad. It’s grossly unprofessional … and just plain gross.

When Michelle and I met last year … I was in New York to give a presentation about fighting pyramid schemes to the so-smart wonks at Pershing Square. It wasn’t very productive {as I failed to accomplish most of my objectives} :: but it was fun … here’s a taste from the slide show …

Presenting Herbalifes

Yeah … it was fun.

I was somewhat reluctant about meeting with Celarier though :: because her dubious ethics and lack of substance were obvious to me from the beginning … and I sometimes/always have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. But it was only lunch :: and maybe I was wrong about her … at least she was making an effort to sorta write about scams.

I {taking the form of a skinny white boy} rolled into the too-fancy-to-be-good restaurant with another reporter :: late … and soaking wet with September rain. Michelle re-re-mentioned that she liked my Hempton article … I pretended to give a shit. She doesn’t actually like the article :: she doesn’t even understand the article … she just likes how I was a total prick to someone she sees as her enemy. But John Hempton is not my enemy … he’s just a smug irrelevancy.

Michelle knew nothing about me … nothing. But no more than five minutes after the other reporter had departed :: she started talking about Bill Ackman in an overfamiliar fashion … unwittingly confessing her multitude of sins in her zeal to posture and boast. Michelle Celarier’s objectivity isn’t tainted by her hopeful expectation of future gains :: it’s completely destroyed by it … and it was almost like she was proud of it.

michelle writes stuff and stuff :: sources say


The New York Attorney General is probing Herbalife :: says Michelle Celarier … but to date not so much the New York Attorney General. So the article is no shit sourced is like this …

The Post has learned.

sources said.

sources said.

sources said.

Ackman declined further comment.

… like she’s proud of it :: proud of how she’s done nothing.

Michelle and her cats speak for Canada too :: she’s just that everywhere …

Michelle for Canada

Here are the sources you can confirm that heck-of-a-job story with …

The Post has learned.

sources familiar with the inquiry said.

sources said.

one source said.

sources said.

these sources added.

distributors told The Post last year

… wait for it …

It is possible that the current inquiry is believed to be looking at the possible violation of the existing prohibition order, said a source familiar with the investigation

It is possible that it is believed that Michelle Celarier is a hack flack :: sources were possibly rumored to have speculated … at least I think that’s what they speculated cause I was drunk at the time so I can’t be responsible for knowing for sure :: sources said … journalism!!

Michelle’s terrible fake journalism temps you into reasonably believing that she has become Pershing Square’s mouthpiece. Like they tell her what to say :: she dumbs it down and strips it of its useful substance … and then prints it in a tabloid broadsheet along with all the other side-boob and Gwyneth Paltrow uncoupling news that’s fit to print.

But it’s much less interesting than that. If Pershing Square wanted to str8 buy off a reporter :: they could afford to buy the best … reporters are barely more expensive than tacos. Michelle Celarier is :: uhm … not the best.

thanks for thinking of me 

Last October the New York Post’s “Senior Business Reporter” Michelle Celarier was just sitting around minding her own latte :: when she was contacted by the incredibly sexy sounding “Horatio Gutierrez” … who made her an offer that only a fake reporter could fail to refuse. Horatio had an audio of an Herbalife President’s Team member saying something spectacularly stupid {not exactly an item in rare supply} …

“There’s nothing to it. You just show up in a nice suit and a fancy car and trick a few Mexicans into thinking they’re going to make a million dollars selling milkshakes.”

… the PresTeam member was purported to have said :: but there was a catch :: as Horatio explained …

I must admit that there is a portion of the recording immediately prior to this statement in which he says, “People think that…” And then he goes on to explain that this is not the case and that you must actually work hard and so on. But those portions could easily “disappear” as I am 100% sure that I am the only owner of this audio…

“Hows about I send you an audio of me telling you to fuck off?” … is what she should have said within a couple of seconds :: instead she refuses to deny she said this …



“I would love to have the audio!!” … I mean seriously?


Hey Michelle :: if you want to write some actual stories about Herbalife … I got about 60 fucking audios I could send you … no fundamental betrayal of your professional ethics required … I’ll even edit them down into three minute segments so you can handle the workload.

Ol’ Horatio must have been shocked at how easy it was to show Michelle for what she is :: “I will edit the audio beforehand so that only the parts that sound most incriminating remain” … he pushed. “Sure–” she replied.

How is this not a fireable offense for a journalist?

Because reporters don’t have ethics … you say. Good point. Because the concentration of sociopathy is almost as high among reporters as it is among scammers … you also say. Fair enough. Forget ethics then. How is it not a fireable offense that the New York Post’s “Senior Business Reporter” couldn’t recognize that stupid shit as an over-the-top obvious setup?

Jittery whistleblowing sources do not sound like Horatio Gutierrez :: at all … ever. You’d think a reporter who relied so heavily on anonymous sourcing would know that.

Michelle couldn’t be anymore up in other people’s business :: but she made no public excuse for this incident … and refused to answer my serious questions about it.

michelle woodward

the ghost of yesterday’s letters

herbliafe dissent

On January 23rd of this year :: Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey announced that he’d called for an investigation into Herbalife’s business practices … sending letters to both the FTC and SEC. It was pretty great news for people who care about hating pyramid schemes :: great news that Michelle Celarier managed to mangle into an epic shitstorm of awful … almost single handed.

Michelle’s article about the announcement posted copies of the Senator’s letter which were dated January 22nd … the day before the announcement. TheSkeptic21 :: an anonymous blogger and tweeter inflamer who has called out many of Michelle’s mistakes … noticed on the 29th.


John Hempton pretended he noticed too.

It seemed very bad :: but the Senator had first posted letters dated January 22nd to his website … then later updated them. Many obsessives who downloaded the letters immediately after the announcement :: had the January 22nd dated letters … I have them. But that’s not what Michelle Celarier attached to her NYPost blurb. Michelle attached photocopies of those originally posted versions :: which had been sent to her by Pershing Square via email. Two of those documents listed as the author in the metadata.

I hoped I’d be able to warn Michelle that she’d been caught making a lazy and stupid {intentional?} mistake :: before she started lying about it … but it was already too late.

so lame

Her lie was SO MUCH worse than the truth :: because it had the Senator first posting January 22nd dated documents that had come off PSQ copiers … which would have been very bad indeed. I told Michelle :: privately … that she was nailed by the metadata so she could retract her lies and stop adding jet fuel to the fire. I very much didn’t like/trust her by this point :: but I was still shocked by her response …

I know!!

Yes I was having trouble uploading and bill had also sent them to me and I was in a hurry

She knew :: yet she made no retraction … and kept on telling the same devastating {for everyone else} lie. I waited and watched for seven more hours :: Michelle was vowing to get to the bottom of what she knew was not a mystery … and nominating herself for Pulitzers.

pulitzer michelle

OMG :: after I was done vomiting nails and rivets … I called her out again.

SD ::

[Y]ou are making a very bad situation much worse by continuing to discourse about it in public while being something less than forthright.

MC ::

I now realize that,
But it is too complicated to explain
Oh well this news cycle shall pass

Not a crime to get them from Psq is it? No

She was going to try and let her mega-lie ride :: simultaneously unethical and idiotic.

SD ::

If you got documents stamped with PSQ’s data from Sen Markey’s site, as you are currently telling the twitterverse, then that would be epic bad for the Senator … and may indicate a crime depending on PSQ’s trading activities these last few weeks.

She finally got it … and copped to her mistake {though without the faintest trace of contrition} …

mystery 1

mystery 2

But it was too late :: by that point several real reporters were circling … having sniffed the possibility of a huge and scandalous story that wasn’t.

The next day Michelle forwarded me {a predator of whom she knows not} the email that Bill Ackman had sent her with the letters attached. The document filenames on the copies he’d sent were long and auto-generated by the scanner :: all contained timestamps after the official press release. The email to which they were attached :: reprinted here in full :: gave Michelle her marching orders from the top …

Great day!

… or not.

The smell of corruption and press manipulation was fucking thick in the air with this thing. I can’t blame anyone :: including John Hempton :: for thinking the worst … because I certainly did. But when you did the real reporting you found out that the Markey letter story was just a story about Michelle Celarier being totally ridiculous … again. Get real reporters snooping for bad stuff though :: and they’ll prolly find it … because the world is a pretty bad place.

— The Boston Globe :: Markey may have exaggerated claims about Herbalife

— The New York Times :: After Big Bet, Hedge Fund Pulls the Levers of Power: Staking $1 Billion That Herbalife Will Fail, Then Lobbying to Bring It Down

I hated that NYTimes piece almost to the point of implosion {because it was so bad for the cause I care so much about} :: and loved that NYTimes piece {because it was so well researched … and it was all like … smack! … suck it rich people!}. It included much about the Markey letter :: and opened with a sequence that had Mr. Ackman at a dinner with fellow hedge funders reading bits of a letter California Representative Linda Sánchez had sent to the FTC … before that letter was public. Michelle Celarier played an importantly gross role in that shitscape as well.

The letter sent by Ms. Sánchez in June, which Mr. Ackman discussed at the dinner, did not move the stock. Ms. Sánchez’s office acknowledges that it sent a copy of this letter to Mr. Ackman’s team a month before it issued its news release on the matter, and says that it backdated the letter when making it public because The New York Post reported its existence a week after the dinner.

Maybe it’s Herbalife that’s paid off Michelle … all she has to do for her money is keep being the fucking worstest.

who is skeptic21?


This is what it’s like trying to get lawyers and important people at Pershing Square to recognize big PR trouble lurking in the shallow waters of the twitters …

SD :: Michelle’s on twitter lying her ass off in a fashion that’s going bring huge chucks of fiery lava raining down on the heads of everyone brave enough to be fighting this frightening fight!

PSQ :: I’m sorry did you say anything after the word Twitter? … because that’s right about when I stopped listening and started entering text into this BlackBerry.

… so it was kinda a shocker to me that they even knew TheSkeptic21 existed :: no less them spending the monies to track down his identity.

Skeptic21 has been fiercely :: and rather humorously … critical of everything Bill Ackman and Pershing Square have done since the beginning of this Herbalife fight. Skeptic21 argues that HLF is not a pyramid scheme based mostly on legalisms :: ignoring ground level operational realities {where there can be no hiding the horrors} … the same mistake that everyone on Wall Street makes.

But criticisms of Ackman does not a defense of Herbalife make. It doesn’t matter if Ackman sprouts horns and starts eating babies right in front of their mothers … Herbalife is still a fucking scam.

I’m mostly bored by the stock talk :: but some of Skeptic21’s articles/research/criticisms have added to my understanding of the situation … like the results from an FTC FOIA request he did which seemed to show Michelle Celarier inferring her “sources” for a story from thin air. And unlike the typical MLM defender-troll :: Skeptic21 is clearly smart … he can even think and write in complete sentences. There was never anything to worry about with this dude.

But still … he did fuck up. He decided to say that Shane Dinneen :: formally the #1 brainiac on the HLF case for PSQ … had been “fired.”

manure fired

It’s a pretty terrible and unacceptable thing to say if it’s not true :: and it wasn’t true … so totally weakballs. It also gave off a pretty serious creep vibe :: because Shane was actually gone/leaving … and Skeptic21 seemed to somehow know that Shane wasn’t coming into work before there had been any sort of announcement. There could have been an innocent explanation for him knowing :: and maybe there was :: but it also turned out that his girlfriend worked in the same building for another hedge fund who had an Herbalife long position … which isn’t very innocent at all.


Anywayz :: it’s not the worst thing I’ve heard this year … it’s not even in the top 9000. Hedge fund gossip anonymously dished by cancer researching boyfriend of lady hedge fund analyst? :: cry me a river … big enough for my yacht!

doxing the doxer

Hunting down Skeptic21’s identity … fine. But publicly outing him :: aka doxing … was a terrible move … an embarrassing move … and the wrong thing to do. He shouldn’t have speculated about Shane when he didn’t have all {or any} of the facts :: but the same goes for Michelle Celarier …

FTC rumor

Doxing an Internet critic :: attacking as it does the whole idea of Internet anonymity … should not be done without an extraordinary justification. Anonymity is not an absolute legal right :: and it prolly never can be … but it certainly should be an aspirational virtue that serious and right thinking people attempt to respect. The right of the little guys to speak straight at the face of the big guys :: it’s so important … and it’s one of America’s best things. If Herbalife victims felt comfortable complaining about their bad experiences to the Internet … Herbalife would have imploded long ago.

Still … it’s complicated. This doxing has been coming for months … and I’ve been strenuously objecting to anyone who would listen {or pretend to listen}. Had Pershing Square done this themselves on their own websites :: or had it been done by a real reporter who took their ethical obligations seriously {see eg James Risen} … then I would have sucked it up and said nothing. I don’t know everything … and I’m not always right.

But that it was Michelle Celarier :: whose own behavior has been so consistently reprehensible :: and whose personal vengeance motive is so conspicuous … that is impossible for me to endure in silence.

I told Michelle that if she did this thing I would react aggressively :: and negatively against it … because I fight for the victims and I’m sick of her shitting on the cause with her amoral actions. She reports gossip :: cites almost exclusively to anon sources {who may not exist at all} :: does no real research … and has only her own personal {though never fully disclosed} interests at heart. She’s the last person on this fucking Earth who should be calling out Skeptic21.

You are just representing your interests. Don’t pretend otherwise.

… says she to me.

Huh. I’d never noticed that. I kinda thought I was risking everything :: every day … for people I’ll never know. I thought I was enduring stalkers :: death threats :: lawsuits :: censorship … and all forms of abuse. I thought I’d turned down money :: mentions :: honors :: and opportunities … all to keep this fight purely focused on what’s best for the millions of people I’ve been lucky enough to represent these past six years.

I take issue with your saying you represent the victims, you are an anonymous blogger who , last I knew,was unemployed.
If victims have hired you, lease let me know.

… says Michelle :: whose spiteful vindictiveness is notorious.

I take issue with the number of times I’ve been forced to take issue with Michelle Celarier :: here’s hoping these 3000 words are the last time.

… lease let me know.

>> bleep bloop

25 thoughts on “The Doxing of Michelle Celarier”

  1. I have never had an ounce of respect for Michelle. It has been obvious to all that she has some weird psycho crush on Ackman. She is quick to attack anyone that offers even the slightest criticism of him. She is quick to point out that Ackman is doing better than Loeb and Einhorn this year but seems to forget that Ackman’s 5 year average has under performed them. Plus, neither of them have sustained the massive losses that Ackman has (Borders, Barnes & Noble, JC Penny, Target….).

    I have talked to some friends at CNBC and they say she has become a joke as a journalist with no ethical standards. You know its bad when even CNBC is passing judgement.

    1. @Manny ::
      Well I am a polemicist :: not a news desk reporter … so I guess that makes sense doesn’t it?

    2. This link has been passed around to just about every financial journalist today. This is from a friend that works for a competing news company that knows Michelle:

      “This Herbalife fiasco is not the first time that Michelle’s integrity or ethics has been called into question. She has always had a reputation for lying and fabricating sources. It’s only because this is a big fight that a spotlight has been shined on her misdeeds. Why do you think she is at the Post and not at a gig more reputable? THIS IS ALL THERE IS FOR HER. She is the equivalent of trailer trash.

      I have always considered Ackman a stand-up guy with high ethical standards, but his association with Michelle gives me pause about his whole case with Herbalife. If he really has the goods then why is Michelle his go to reporter? She is not smart by any means (I think she is an idiot). She has virtually no integrity and she is willing to lie and break every rule that journalists live and die by. If Ackman had a case there are tons of more qualified reporters that he could feed stories too, but he isn’t and this is why we remain skeptical in our own coverage. By associating with someone of low moral fiber like Michelle, Ackman has tainted himself.

      The word I get is that this case is probably going to end up in court. If Michelle is called to the stand I have no doubt she would perjure herself. She is just that type to break the law.

      I hope Ackman has some grand plan for her because her name is mud in journalism.”

  2. Michelle is, right now, undoubtedly scrambling to come up with excuses for all this. Too bad there aren’t any.

    This rather damning Tumblr post is now showing up under her name on Google:

    Michelle’s next writing assignment may be filling out an application for unemployment. That might actually be the greatest reporting challenge of her purported “career.”

    You know what you have to do, New York Post. And you too, Bill.

  3. Reading the NY Post is like getting an e-mail from someone who scanned through the Daily News on their lunch break. You might get the general idea, or a misconceived idea but it hits enough highlights for stupid people to form opinions about things.

    1. I’m curious to hear your opinions on Skeptic21 because I haven’t read enough of his stuff to form any.
      I’ve spent a few days mulling over the doxing and how I feel about it. Does it matter that Skeptic21’s disclaimer says he – not his girlfriend’s employer – may hold positions in the securities discussed? Does it matter if something his girlfriend said prompted him to look for public information others were ignoring? Maybe. But people already believed Skeptic21 was a possible insider who stood to benefit from HLF’s success. The details Celarier published don’t change anything.
      When she reports information about HLF, Celarier refuses to provide the slightest details about her sources. Lacking anything to say about HLF, she turned not only Skeptic21’s personal details but his and his girlfriend’s names into the story. But it’s a non-story: the worst kind of tabloid schlock calculated to titillate simply by dragging private people through the muck. The NY Post needs to transfer Celarier from business to celebrity gossip.

      1. Thanks for caring about my opinion *I guess*. Why do I feel like I’m about to “get on SD’s bad side”- in the words of Roddy Boyd- lol. Stay loose paisano. Oh well, I’m probably already on his bad side, what the hey.
        It’s a bit of a 50 Shades situation, isn’t it, Charcoal, Mourning Dove, Paris, Dolphin Fin, Elephant’s Breath, Ash, Slate, Seal Skin… for sophisticated adults only, no sharp baby-retina-pleasing black and white smiley face flash cards here? We’re in the thick murky fog slogging through the mud looking for that beacon of light…it’s there somewhere, keep walking, keep looking, how nasty this little adventure can get sometimes with so many unpleasant characters along the way, we’re going to find that light though, let’s stick together, who’s your Moving Buddy Mr. Potato Head, hold hands compadres, let’s not freak out and lose our way.
        My objections fall into two areas (…for the moment I think that anyway…I reserve the right to change my mind, however…don’t get your pampers in a twist…for gawds sakes, I am still just trying to get my mind around the HLF marketing plan, I was trying to avoid it for a long time but I realize now: there is some juicy info in that part of the story, I may never understand it and unfortunately understanding it is enough to drive you to the loony bin).
        Area One, I am basically on the same page with Anna above to do with the general area of motivation. In my own words: Skeptic21blog disclaimer seems vague to the point of misleading in light of the fleshing out of the story. Not terribly impressed with that disclaimer. GF’s employer/lotta $$$ involved. Not to the level of Bill or Carl, of course. StIll, tsk tsk, what are we to think? Let’s recall here, SD does not profit monetarily from his activism.
        I would add more fuel to this l’il fire -my, now it’s getting warm in here-by bringing up the Post’s suggestion (as you SD did not) that Herbalife Corporate or one of their agents may have been giving information to S21: The LA Times called HLF corporate for comments on story before publishing, then S21 beats the LA times to the punch? Okay, noted. Is there an alternate explanation for how that happened? I am open to it (MC is definitely sloppy, no argument on that point…hi MC, can you say “learning experience”, just planting a seed here, alright, let’s move on). There was also the “friends of HLF send letter to congress” S21 scoop. Where would he have gotten that info? I am asking, not telling. “It was obvious the Skeptic 21 was in places others weren’t”…that wasn’t on SD’s list of top 9000 concerns, but MC being in places others weren’t (namely, PS’s speed dial) did make it right to the top of your list this week. Okay amigo, we agree to disagree. MC is getting info from PS with no disclosure. Is S21 getting info from the other side of Mothra vs. Godzilla with no disclosure? One black is black, the other black is actually more of a trendy gray, peeps, much more the thing for 2014, tres chic mon amis? Okay. But perhaps you have a rebuttal to the HLF direct to S21 theory.
        Someone on Twitter asserted: $HLF used Chin/Skeptic 21 to manipulate perception of informed independence when it was not.
        …And I thought, yes, amen, brothers and sisters of truth. But, that’s just me: “these results are not typical, individual results will vary”, whew, close call, thanks HLF legal department for helping me out there.

        Area Two (as opposed to Area 51): I disagree that the Shane Dineen episode is S21’s only mistake. SD soft pedals this: “Skeptic21 argues that HLF is not a pyramid scheme based mostly on legalisms :: ignoring ground level operational realities”. For me, this legalism is sort of a central, ongoing problem and why this stuff will never end. S21, spare us your noise–halfway thru the endless Shane Dineen saga on the S21 site I momentarily lost the will to live. Listen…and in homage to what SD wrote above…Bill Ackman could fire Shane Dineen publically on CNBC, announce on Fox Biz he is going perma-long HLF with his “we-kissed-n-made-up” buddy Carl, have a full blown bromance with Michael Johnson with front page coverage by the WSJ, he could go brown, buff and brawny with Michael Burton at his tan-tastic Fit camp, drink and otherwise slather himself in Formula One shakes three times a day, become President of the DSA, retain Kevin Thompson as his lead attorney…and Herbalife would Still be a fraudulent business opportunity and not what they say they are at all.
        S21, (despite wowing us with his satisfactory completion of English Composition) writes things that to me demonstrate that his energetic due diligence is limited only to all-things-Bill-Ackman…when it comes to Herbalife itself, suddenly his enthusiasm for checking up on the details fails him. I guess that is not even a point of contention between you and I SD, but….Am I really the only one bothered by S21’s large font tag line (“bored with the noise”)? So he is the signal? Sorry bud, saying you are the guru usually a red flag in my experience. The smaller-type disclaimer statements don’t excuse it. S21 is guilty of noise about Herbalife himself, with the signal nowhere to be seen.
        Example (so that you don’t accuse me of talking out of my @&s), S21 writes:
        “also I have to ask why the fuck Bostick didn’t just return all that shit he ordered instead of giving it all away.” Here and elsewhere he seems to be relying heavily on the (so called) “Gold Standard” return policy defense. Without any due diligence. Why don’t we let’s paint in a little color on the return policy picture. The original product shipping and handling charges are not refundable, from what I have gathered, though HLF will pay return shipping. Is that still 7%? Anyone know? So it’s not a full refund, for starters. One commenter claims that if you bought your product from ” your sleazy up-line SV who is trying to qualify for a position off your back” then Herbalife will not accept the return…”if you a member/DS purchases their SV order directly from the SV (because they need to move volume to qualify for their next level, incidental to the sales) HBL WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS AS A RETURN AND THERE IS NO CLAW BACK”. He also claims that as a distributor, you can’t return opened products, as a customer you can. “So all SV’s do is tell the underling, order 4000 VPTS of product all different and we will open each and everyone, so you can get a result,, HBL has dozens of flavors, you need to try them all, and guess what I just opened all your products and handwritten instructions on each label, you are ineligible to return the product” Same commenter says if “the label changed, it was puke green now sissy green, one ingredient letter spelled wrong, whoops now hbl won’t replace the product” “or added a new ingredient which happens all the time”…also…”HBL will say then, well we just changed the labels on this product and we can’t return that.. and this product we (HLF) on the label itself made some spelling errors, on that so we can’t return that,, and on the fish oil, we don’t include that ingredient so we can’t return that.. On this label we added a colorful swish that we paid 1 million dollars for (why, we want to give our DS. more confidence, our labels rock, they are just not ordinary, the most important thing is our entertainment and confidence of our DS’s….what about the 3rd party end user..hmmm…who are they.. WE SELL the biz opp. to our DS” “The real reason why they want to give you a 25% is so you are prevented from returning your products after they help you open all your sample boxes.. and when you ask your up line SV, what happens if I can’t sell all the products.. well….hmmm… you just became my best customer.. and if you want I’ll take the products off your hands and donate them to the HBL charity, casa children’s house” “mostly all the sales leaders just donate it to charity tax right off, and hey it goes to a unique address so of course HBL assumes it’s not only sold at full 100% retail price but the charity is a genuine customer.” He also talks about the psychology of it, which we are all familiar with here. There is never a valid reason to quit or leave the group, that’s how these beasts operate. Hello? If you return your product, you have terminated your membership with HLF, it’s over. We never never never quit, that is pitched and re-pitched, over and over and over and over. Ergo, we never never return product. All this stuff has been posted recently on SA.
        I could go on, but need to get back to real life here. This is a sample of my personal lack of enthusiasm for S21. I think we completely agree SD, come to think of it. It’s just that MC bothers you more than S21. I myself am deeply bothered by the legalistic defenses by intelligent people. What is legal is not always what is right. I was reading “12 Years a Slave” last week (by Solomon North). As I read the book, my mind kept going to current day HLF defenders and their legalistic mindset. Transported back in time, and considering some of the biases commonplace in the mid-nineteenth century, wouldn’t people with this mindset likely have been defending slavery, 100% legal in some parts of our country, back in those days? That’s how the attitude of some of them strikes me: What? Emancipation Proclamation? That’s Federal overstep! Outrageous. You can’t just change the law to suit yourself, you abolitionist extremists! Maybe there are a few abuses, a few bad players out there, okay. But the majority of these cotton and sugar plantation entrepreneurs are ethical, kindly, law abiding citizens living the American dream. The law is on their side. Back off.
        Hyperbole? Yes. Just trying get a point across. And for some people with family members harmed by high demand groups…they might understand the comparison in a way that others don’t.

        1. hey 2+2=4 that was a long reply. took me a while to read it. i read them all. i was the one who said “$HLF used Chin/SK21 to manipulate perception of informed independence when it was not. like most things, they could have gotten away with it if they didn’t get greedy – have to scoop the LA Times story etc. And the same goes for Ackman using Michelle. the sad thing is, age old story line, is Chin/Skeptic21 and Michelle are pawns. But their defect of character is seeking it. Skeptic21 relished the part, you could feel it oozing off the blog page like a superhero. i almost barfed when he tweeted something about HLF and then the owner of a trendy restaurant he was going to. its tempting to escape the mundane of cancer research and newlywed baby one the way, for the fantasy of fire. but don’t cry like a baby when you get burned. there is no altruism in Skeptic21 blog. maybe there is SD, i haven’t looked critically enough, but seems like it. Michelle certainly seems to have gotten caught up in the chase of the story. that’s unfortunate. as i said about Chin/Skeptic21 and I say about Michelle, i think we should keep the focus on the real damage doers – Herbalife. Millions of people have been fleeced out of Billions of dollars. It is a global… publicly traded… multi billion dollar… organized money transfer racket. It’s been going on for 30+ yrs and no one seems to care. When we finish he real job, we can get back to the 3 pawns.

        2. @2+2=4 ::

          You can’t get on my bad side by disagreeing with me silly goose. That said … I don’t accept that you have disagreed with me here. I offer you this numbered response …
          1. I’m absolutely not defending Skeptic21’s actions or arguments. Just defending his right not to be doxxed by a fake reporter who has exhibited a near total lack of ethics. It’s quite a narrow argument.
          2. Not sure his disclaimer is too relevant to me. All these stock-talkers should be assumed to have direct financial interests. They only care about themselves.
          3. If he was being paid by HLF … that would be completely different. But he categorically denied that to me … and I did not read him as a liar.
          4. Michelle should be held to a much higher standard than Skeptic21. She’s the institutional press … and has a wide voice via that. It’s expected that she’s holding herself to certain minimum standards. Skeptic21 has an anon blogspot blog.
          5. Skeptic21 answered all my questions. I muchly disagreed with his positions … he didn’t flinch. Michelle answered NONE of my questions … and went all postal-ape-shit at the first sign of disagreement between us. S21 told me he never had, and never would … delete a dissenting comment from his site. Michelle will murder your baby at the first sign of dissent.
          6. Totally agree about the return policy garbage arguments … it shows zero understanding of how this “business” actually works. I better write about it.
          7. Thanks for your thoughtful comment!
          @Tom Salvatore ::

          “i think we should keep the focus on the real damage doers – Herbalife.”

          No fucking doubt! You’re new here so I wouldn’t expect you to understand … but I could not possibly be angrier that I had to write this story. Should not have fallen on me. Such a MASSIVE waste of my time. But Michelle has been the primary catalyst behind the worst of the distractions :: and no one else would say what needed to be said … or do what needed to be done.

          1. I accept your non-acceptance of our alleged disagreement.

            Was never defending MC…and I will pile more on there in noting that MC screwed up her article on Vemma this year as well.

            Fortunately, after MC’s article, Truth in Advertising on their site set things straight, teasing out the details of Vemma’s non-changes-trumpeted-as-changes.

          2. My main objection to Skeptic21 was that he was manipulating perception of informed independence when he was not independent, and he used anonymity as deceptive cover. So… he deserved to be outed. Anonymity should be reserved for whistleblowers and the like. Otherwise, it lends itself to manipulation, deceit and abuse. I say all sorts of things people don’t like, and some things I regret. But I do it without anonymity. And that requires me to pause (hopefully) before I say it, think about the consequences all around, think about my motivations, that sort of thing. It’s healthier for society when people live in the sunlight (except in the rare instances they truly need protection – which is also why I commented on his blog that he should stop whining like a baby now that his superhero fantasy has come crashing down.) You and I can agree to disagree, if that’s how it comes out. It seems to me like the nanny state we live in everyone wants to be protected for everything and from everything.

            with respect to Michelle. how do i say this… you made your point. i think you were unduly hard on her. it came across to an objective reader as vindictive and hurtful. as i read on and on and on, i was thinking to myself… what did she do to him? i know violent crime victims who have more forgiveness. sometimes we can state the obvious, right? and what use is that? except to satisfy our own appetite for revenge.

            I shared the Horatio Gutierrez emails with couple people who have nothing to do with Herbalife and know nothing about Michelle – and they said “well, she really didn’t say much. What happened after she met the guy? Did she publish it with or without the full statement?” Of course it would have been more damning if you actually gave her the tape, she published the “wrong story”, then you outed it. But we will never know how she would have acted – but we know how you would expect her to act at every step of the way (expectations are precursors to resentments). You’re assuming that she would have published a complete lie, because you say so. and you are clearly vindictive, angry and bitter – not helping your objective case. I’m just being devil’s advocate, reminding us all that we are not perfect, and we ought to all lighten up on each other. (except in the case of Herbalife, of course – now that’s a real bug in my butt!)

  4. Good taco reference.

    As usual, @SD, you know a lot more about what’s going on behind the scenes than I do.

    But I do remember reading this thing you quoted here:

    It is possible that the current inquiry is believed to be looking at the possible violation of the existing prohibition order, said a source familiar with the investigation

    and how it kinda pissed me off a little. You know it’s bad when your writing has that much qualifying equivocation in it, and it wasn’t being done as a joke.

    I mean, I get the (multiple) point(s) of being vague. It can shield you from writing a lie. it can neatly obscure your true meaning. It can allow others to think you were saying something you weren’t, and thereby out themselves when the attempt a response. It can be a great way to piss people off. It’s fun at parties… if you like pissing people off at parties.

    But if a (so-called) news reporter is trying to write an article about Important Stuff, then you have to bite the bullet and get concrete and specific somewhere in there. Otherwise, how can it really be NEWS?

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

  5. Kind of funny that she only has 2000 followers.. I have more than that without trying…

  6. Damn. Nice work…glad somebody went to pay attention to the NYPost like that – I certainly had bought right out into it hook and line and sinker. d’oh!

  7. Hi Droid,
    I was wondering (kind of hoping fervently with prayers included really) how your suit with non-non-non-non-doctor pervert was going. I know continuances, missed court appearances and other general inefficiencies make these things drag out, but if I recall right something should have happened a couple of months back so I was hoping some movement may have taken place. Other than a bowelly kind I mean.

      1. @Anna

        The last entry now reads NOTICE FILED and participant is Coldwell again. I don’t know enough “law stuff” to know how to read that. Is it saying Coldwell filed a notice or that Judge Egan filed a notice? I would love to know what the notice says.

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

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