Suits vs Prophets

FiftyThreeFuckingMillion

$53,000,000 :: fifty-three fucking million … that’s how much money the government claims 1500 investors around the world dumped into the bottomless fraud coffers of Senen Pousa via Mike Dillard.

It’s a depressing shit ton of money … I was much happier not knowing.

The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission lays it out in their complaint

“During the relevant period, IIC and Pousa have accepted at least $53,000,000 from an estimated 1,500 investors in the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and Singapore. They have done so by using emails and sophisticated internet webcasts, and webinars sent directly to investors via their websites… Pousa has also solicited investors for his fraudulent scheme through a third-party website called The Elevation Group …

In May 2012, investors learned that Pousa’s offering was a massive fraud.”

Pretty much :: maybe “sophisticated” isn’t the best adjective to describe webinars … but I guess it’s hard to gain a proper perspective on the webz while browsing from IE6 on your government issue Windows XP computer.

The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission :: once fronted by geekcore rockstar Brooksley Born {who no one wanted to listen to because she was actually talking sense} … is also involved in the enforcement action.

It was the CFTC that came after Stephen Pierce in 2003 for his association with Todd Snively and the Futurewise Trading Group. That case was $6.27 million from 900 “investors.” Snively was the not licensed  “trading” arm of the scam {like Pousa here} … and Stephen Pierce was the Internet Marketer {like Dillard here}. Nipple Pierce paid $25,000 and walked right back to scamworld … Snively did time in federal prison before moving on with his life.

In most quadrants of the criminal underworld :: you don’t snitch … it’s like the golden fucking rule and stuff … violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the you just got gunned down by the dumpster and no one reported you missing for two days. Scamworld has no such rule :: no such code … once the sirens sound it’s every fake man for himself and his own need for a bigger boat.

The CFTC has entered a consent order against Dillard :: which he has signed {like Frank Kern did his FTC consent order} … basically agreeing to totally eat it now in the hopes of avoiding an even worser amount of totally eating it later. Along with rather open-ended disgorgement and damages provisions :: the order contains this “do snitch” provision …

Dillard and Elevation shall cooperate fully and expeditiously with the CFTC, including the CFTC’s Division of Enforcement, in any current or future investigation, civil litigation or administrative matter related to the subject matter of this action. As part of such cooperation, Dillard and Elevation shall comply, to the full extent of their abilities, promptly and truthfully with any inquiries or requests for information including but not limited to, requests for production of documents and authentication of documents, shall provide assistance at any trial, proceeding, or investigation related to the subject matter of this action, including but not limited to, requests for testimony, depositions, and/or interviews.

With Mike Dillard’s helpful help :: it sounds like Senen Pousa will be needing a big wad of those ill-gotten gains to hire super expensive criminal defense attorneys like James Arthur Ray did :: except that his assets have just been frozen and a receiver has been appointed to unwind his webs in the hopes of recovering some monies for his victims … exactly what should have happened to James Arthur Ray while Detective Diskin was spending many months investigating the manslaughters.

In Mike Dillard’s public opinion this is big win for team him …

The SEC and CFTC looked closely and thoughtfully at substantial amounts of evidence before making decisions on who to name in their complaints and what charges to bring.  The SEC determined that they would not include the Elevation Group in the case filed today.

I’m fucking innocent!

The CFTC’s case has essentially two categeories of defendants. One category, the “fraud Defendants,” includes Senen Pousa, IIC, ProphetMax Managed FX and Joel Friant, against whom the CFTC alleges fraud. The other category, the “Registration Defendants,” includes Mike and the Elevation Group.

Maybe :: for now … but no question that the majority of the fraud was on Mike Dillard. Fraud is about deception :: and Mikey D-bag was {and is} responsible for bringing the people in … and then hooking them through the lip of their insecurities from his lie pulpit. I’m forced :: by the facts … to admit that he’s quite good at it.

If Mike Dillard was an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra-rich :: then he would have known that Senen Pousa is a laugh out loud obvious unqualified scammer … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud because he sold the crap out of him anyway. If Mike Dillard isn’t an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra rich and is instead just some dumb former waiter who knows shit about shit and so couldn’t see Pousa coming from a mile {or an ocean} away :: then the whole basis of The Elevation Group is fake … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud.

Either way … Mike Dillard is a fucking fraud.

Even thought we cooperated just as fully with the CFTC, their laws have a technical provision tht says that we should have been registered before telling anyone about Senen or the other Fraud Defendants.

You mean the “fraud defendants” about whom you said …

We’ve done an incredible amount of research on our end, and I trust the man with my life. That’s all I have to say on the matter, and will not address this thread further.

… before unceremoniously deleting dissent from your customers/victims?

And yeah our laws have a “technical provision” whereby you must have a couple of licenses or six before you’re authorized to make highly leveraged trades on global currency exchanges with $53 million in customer funds :: or to peddle the services of someone who does the same … but you rat bastards had none of that. Technical oversight.

The fraud is all in the pitch :: it’s right there for everyone to see … but what happened after that still remains a mystery. While I’ve clearly stated that Mike Dillard should be the priority target here :: being the bastard higher up on the bastard food chain … I do doubt that he had much to do with the actual 63% trading loss part of the debacle.

1) It strip mined the value of the customers he’d paid to acquire in a way that moved the money further from his control …

2) It happened too fast for people to blame themselves …

3) Trading is highly regulated and closely monitored {at least in contrast to selling murky unicorns} …

4) Australia is the wrong foreign island to try to pull off a massive cash grab …

5) A huge trading loss perfectly illustrates what a ridiculously dangerous joke is The Elevation Group.

Mike Dillard and I have been not-friends for a long time now :: and I hope that the devil painfully sucks his soul out through his squinty eye holes and nails it to the wall of some dirty public bathroom along the Jersey Turnpike … but I think he’s pretty damn good at this game and wouldn’t make such ass stupid mistakes. Did you hear that Mikey D-bag? It was a compliment.

Other hands :: I was pretty shocked when he launched The Elevation Group … because it’s seriously begging for it … even without the instant-mega-losses. Not smart.

From Bloomberg

“Pousa exploited the Internet to communicate his fraudulent investment services to a worldwide audience,” said Kevin Edmundson, assistant director of enforcement in the SEC’s regional office in Fort Worth, Texas. “This is a good example of how regulators around the world work together to enforce securities laws for all investors.”

Yes it’s a good example :: of how regulators come in too late to stop the harm :: take the actions least likely to prevent future harms :: don’t get to the root of the problem … and then fucking boast about it like they are the effective regulators that they believe themselves to be when they’re at home drunk watching The West Wing reruns.

The SEC and CFTC are market regulators :: cleaning up Internet Marketing isn’t in their mandate … but $53,000,000 in a single score says it fucking needs to be somebody’s.

Please fake Atlas :: I’m begging you … shrug yourself into a perpetual fucking coma.

>> bleep bloop

208 thoughts on “Suits vs Prophets”

  1. Well this isn’t quite what I thought it was going to be from the title. I was hoping it was going to be a takedown of MLM scammers in Utah and their connections to a certain large religious organization. Not that I have any info on that, I was just hoping you might.

    That said, this is a perfectly good article and I do wish the FTC and the CFTC did more to stop these scumbags before they rip off so many people.

    1. You guys really are bunch crying bitches OMG use your fucking head. If your dumb enough to give these guys money you shouldn’t have money.

      Dumb shits

      if we would remove the warning labels, most you would die we wouldn’t need FTC

  2. Great article only one problem with it you say “and a receiver has been appointed to unwind his webs in the hopes of recovering some monies for his victims” once the receivers suck it dry with their own fees there will be nothing left for the investors. I have “worked” with receivers before they are always the first to get paid and if they fart on a piece of relevant or irrelevant paper as they walk past it they will invoice for the “work”

  3. ummm… I love you salty, but the thing is…the problem here is too fucking huge. It involves pretty much all of the media, most of the (funneled) internet (which is the biggest part of the internet), all of the banks all over the world and all their ilk which includes most insurance companies all hedge funds and other banksterisms, most politicians and most/all governments around the planet.
    Basically we need a reboot on humanity as a whole.

    Our only hope is that aliens come here and start handing out ray guns that disintegrate the stupid and the evil. It would probably reduce humanity down to a few hundred thousand individuals tops.

    1. @G., That wasn’t to say you should ever stop what you are doing though! Just wanted to be clear. My thinking was more along the lines of…man…I am no good at doing what salty does and even if I go black-ops say and start offing bad guys in my own way (metaphorically speaking you understand, wouldn’t want to be accused of death-threating anyone) I don’t think there is enough ammo or time on the planet for one man to put much of a dent in these fucks in a terminal way. It’s kind of like batman at the start of the dark knight returns…too many bad humans and too few batmans…it’s depressing. Makes me want to do something that has an impact but it’s hard to know where to begin…let me think on it while I think about big-ass guns.

    2. @G.,

      Our only hope is that aliens come here and start handing out ray guns that disintegrate the stupid and the evil. It would probably reduce humanity down to a few hundred thousand individuals tops.

      This looks fun at first. I mean who doesn’t want a disintegrater gun for the next time they get stuck in traffic am-I-right? And I truly did love that one scene in The Fifth Element about the little red button on the bottom of the gun{link}.

      But I’ve long since grown leery of the idea of population control based around killing off the stupid people. `cuz we’re all stupid. And who really wants to see little kids on the playground or Timmy from South Park getting disintegrated while the people who are actually bad and just a little bit clever carry on?

      1. @Wyrd, I didn’t mean i get to detrmine who to zap…I mean the tech of the zap guns is such that it only disintegrates the low-ethics morons…..

    3. @G.,

      Banks, insurance companies, and hedge funds have about as much to do with Investment Intelligence Corporation et al. as the Mayo Clinic has to do with
      Leonard Coldwell or advertising’s Big Four have to do with Naomi Dunford.

      The governments, though. Why didn’t regulators step in before people’s money was gone? They couldn’t ascertained Pousa, Friant, Dillard, and their companies didn’t hold the appropriate licenses and shut this down much earlier on.

      1. @Lanna, For that very reason, we can’t look to government to regulate human behavior. Free markets (millions of individuals making their own self-interested decisions) regulate human behavior better than any centralized force will ever be able to. SD is a free market regulator in the world of internet fraudsters. A first, and one of its kind… for now. Rather than desire greater government power in this space, I humbly suggest that you’d be better off to promote SD far and wide.

        The laws regarding fraud are common law, hundreds of years old. Regulatory agencies are set up precisely to give cover to those entities that would violate those laws in their given industries, by removing their regulation from the common sense of common law developed over hundreds of years, and enforced by juries comprised of little people, rather than regulatory created bureaucrats that are easier bought off by those they are ostensibly employed to regulate. Common law = millions of little people having their morals and ethics enforced by the state monopoly on force (law). Regulatory law = politicians being paid by industries to create regulatory agencies to “regulate” those industries to very quickly be bought and paid for by those industries, thereby escaping the enforcement by the state monopoly on force (law).

        Certain of SD’s readers will scoff at this notion. Okay, name a regulatory agency. I will tell you who funds it, and how the funding party benefits from the existence of its “regulator.”

        Another thing: SD, indexed by search engines, is preventative, rather than merely punitive — after the damage has been done. A place where the free market (the little people) can come together to sound the alarm on fraudsters, and where other parts of the free market (little people) can do a simple internet search on a potential “get rich quick and you can too” flopportunity before buying into it, will have quite the chilling effect on those flopportunistic fraud artists. Far more than SEC or CFTC “regulators” spending their time in the office viewing porn on the taxpayer’s dime.

        As governments go bankrupt left and right from their own fraud and corruption, SD will become the trailblazing regulatory model for the 21st century. It could be applied across almost every industry. The (potentially millions of) little people who benefit from the SD model need to find a way to monetize that model so that it is sustainable, without making it susceptible to capture by the SD-model regulated industries.

        This is not a political post, but rather a post about what is proven to work, versus what is proven to not work.

        1. @,
          OMG I love this idea!
          I have images of millions of SD’s in all the niches and industries chipping away at the baddies!

          You are right regulatory bodies are rarely pure islands, someone has always built a bridge from the industry it oversee’s into the heart of the regulatory body somehow. But big groups of independent SD’s now try building bridges to them!

          In my head I even saw an image of independent SD’s regulating other SD’s is that taking it to far?

          1. @Alby, Probably not “millions” of SD’s in the different niches (there aren’t that many niches — kind of like there aren’t a million stock exchanges), but certainly a few thousand.

            I don’t think “SD’s regulating other SD’s” is taking it to far… in fact, it’s pretty close to the truth.

            The bottom line is that the little people must take responsibility for the moral and ethical culture that they live in. Moral and ethical cultures are built one individual decision at a time, over many many years. It cannot be delegated; the responsibility rests with each individual in that culture.

        2. @,

          Yeah, I get that regulatory agencies get bought off and pushed around by the larger entities and lobbying organizations of the industries they are supposed to regulate. If we were talking about a well-known firm, I would agree with that line of explanation. But do you really think that Pousa paid off some people inside ASIC? That Dillard knew some people at the SEC or CFTC who agreed to look the other way?

          1. @Lanna, Yes, it is my belief that Dilliard (his attorneys) paid off the CFTC in the form of some type of settlement. I’m an attorney. I don’t think that Dilliard knew people. I think that his ill-acquired war chest bought concessions from the “prosecuting” attorneys. That’s how the legal game is played. I am close to several litigating attorneys. Respectfully, wake up. “Opposing” attorneys are almost always on the same team. Research “BAR.”

        3. @, When I speak of “free markets,” please interpret that in the vein of open source software–free as in speech AND beer.

          1. @, Anaon,
            Smartest commentator on this thread so far! I believe sir, you may already know who Lysander Spooner is. Thank you for your comments. It gives me hope there are some humans aside from SD that still understand basic logic, ethics, and the (correct) use of force when/where required to enforce ethical behaviour or redress the effects of unethical behaviour.

        4. @Anonymous ::

          The (potentially millions of) little people who benefit from the SD model need to find a way to monetize that model so that it is sustainable, without making it susceptible to capture by the SD-model regulated industries.

          Everything is susceptible to capture … especially individuals with their egos and insecurities and need to pay the rent and feed the childrens.

          Say I monetize this place now … does that prove anything? It will have taken four years :: and no way it can pay Jason what he’d make if he just got a fucking job like a normal person. During that free labor build up period :: he’s exposed himself to an absurd amount of risk {financial and otherwise} … while most of the “little people who benefit” don’t know this site exists … or hate my guts and find all kinds of unfun ways to prove it. Oh that plus :: so far … I’ve had to stare down about ten dirty lawyers. People who seriously need to be exposed … seriously hate being exposed.

          That just doesn’t sound like a realistically repeatable solution to me. There is something magical and empowering about what the Internets make possible :: but it’s not there yet … and if we’re not more careful we’re going to snuff it right out.

          I would say maybe the “SD model” could be “lawyer crusaders on the webz” :: but IMHO this site only works because the jokes are fucking epic … not the most common of lawyer traits.

          In the mean time :: government agencies could be made far less susceptible to capture and sloth … and so they must be.

          1. @SD,

            In the mean time :: government agencies could be made far less susceptible to capture and sloth … and so they must be.

            You usually don’t like phrases like “call to action” so… did you have something specific in mind that is different from the typical “call your legislator” approach?

            More specifically, do you have any suggestions to stop the erosion of important laws over time? E.g. like in 2005 when Utah “carve[d] out an exclusion from the Pyramid Scheme Act for MLM’s which pretend to sell physical products” ?
            http://saltydroid.info/mark-shurtleff-attorney-general-of-mlm/

            And of course the “landmark” decision where the FTC said Amway was totally not a pyramid scheme b/c they sell a product
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway#FTC_investigation

            And the repeal of usury laws that I already linked to on this page
            http://americansforfairnessinlending.wordpress.com/the-history-of-usury/
            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/more/rise.html

            And the Dietary Supplement
            Health and Education Act of 1994 that allows for manufacturers like the kind Shurtleff shills to spew out a ton of “nutritional supplements” just as long as they’re safe (not necessarily effective)
            http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/dshea.html

            And, in general banking, there’s those darn Credit Default Swaps that “geekcore rockstar Brooksley Born” was going on about.

            And although I’ve tried to stay out of the specifics, those commenters here that say that government agencies are often “in bed” with the entities they’re supposed to regulate are kinda right a lot-lot.

            Most of the time, any given government agency that’s suppose to do something is underfunded and/or understaffed
            In the case of banking stuffs the government agency is sometimes additionally being paid by the party it’s supposed to regulate.

            Soo… how do we prevent the erosion of laws? And how do we see to it that government officials are “made far less susceptible to capture and sloth”?

            1. @Wyrd,
              Personally I think anything short of a firing squad and a much used wall against which to shoot the culprits will never really work. Of course…in revolutions the next lot of thugs usually rises to the top.
              We need ethical assassins really….bit of an oxymoron there so i don’t know what the solution is. What I DO know is that anything short of brute (and brutal) force will not deter incalloused criminals like the banksters and their ilk, like the pyramid schemers.

            2. @G.,

              revolution? assassins? firing squads?

              I can’t tell if you’re joking or if you’re serious.

              If you’re joking, then in the context of this blog, I don’t think it’s very funny.

              If you’re serious, then you should seriously go post that crap somewhere else that isn’t here.

              Maybe you could post that over on your blog at http://www.gfilotto.com/ along with the hypnotism offers and the weird looking pictures.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            3. @G. ::

              Please fuck off already!

              If only force matters … then what are you doing here? Because this place has nothing to do with force :: it’s about transparency and conversation … and the solo power of truth. So isn’t it a total waste of mine and your time? Shouldn’t we be joining militias and become ninjas and stuff instead of jibberjabbering?

              Year old news flash …

              http://saltydroid.info/naomi-dunfords-death-threats-and-hate-crimes/

              Gosh :: maybe it’s fucking ridiculous to talk about violence here … huh?

              Or did you want to see my whole site totally destroyed so that you could get your rocks off?

              Go play Call of Duty and talk your shit on Xbox Live :: bring up violence again here and I’ll have to ban you … because you force me to respond each time … and I’m tired of making thoughtful counters to fucking caveman talk.

              Clear enough?

          2. @SD, Don’t disagree with anything in your reply. Just want crusaders like yourself to make a living through their crusades so that they can give them their full attention.

          3. @SD,
            OK. I was expressing a personal opinion and did not think through the consequences of associating violence of any form with your blog (which was not my intention). So my apologies in that respect, besides one comment I made earlier below before I read this I shall not make such comments again.
            In part, I was also outraged by the implied threat Coldwell made by putting a “bounty” out for your information (which was in any case alreayd avialble in public) and in my experience people of that sort understand only one kind of language, but then I have worked in some pretty tragic environments were people who used force got the better of weaker persons who could not protect themselves, so undoubtedly that has coloured my world-view. Regardless, I will keep such philosophies to myself from now on.

            The work you do here is of paramount importance and actually making a difference so it’s certainly doing more than I am for a lot of people affected by the type of parassites you write about.

            I suppose when you try to make large scale changes yours is the only reasonable approach, and I admire it even if I find it very frustrating that the changes it produces are not as widespread and permanent as we would all like in terms of preventing the fraud and misery these people cause.

      2. @Lanna, Ummm.. I wasn’t saying banks are directly linked to IM scammers…I am saying banks and hedge funds etc are THEMSELVES giant cons. And if you disagree with me on that then there is really not much point in us continuing to disagree, cause we will never agree.

  4. A bunch of people just collectively lost a sum total of $5.3E7

    and you can too!


    If Mike Dillard was an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra-rich :: then he would have known that Senen Pousa is a laugh out loud obvious unqualified scammer … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud because he sold the crap out of him anyway. If Mike Dillard isn’t an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra rich and is instead just some dumb former waiter who knows shit about shit and so couldn’t see Pousa coming from a mile {or an ocean} away :: then the whole basis of The Elevation Group is fake … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud.

    Either way … Mike Dillard is a fucking fraud.

    I agree. Thank you for going ahead and spelling out in plain English this clear logical argument.

    Upon a moment’s reflection, this kind of point should be a no-brainer to people that earn their paycheck countering fraud and corruption. There’s probably already a law for it even.

    And if the CFTC, the SEC, and the rest of the federal alphabet soup that’s suing Pousa can’t see that point, then what the fuck is wrong with them?

    I’m tempted to just call and ask them directly. I would be polite of course.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd,

      Ok, so now I’ve actually read the consent decree. (Well I read almost all of it. There were a few parts where it seemed to be repeating itself that I just skimmed over.)

      The stuff Mikey D-bags wrote on his website had Maximal Spin. The “unspun” (love making up words) version in the Consent Decree makes it more clear that the CFTC does believe Dillard and the Elevation Group did Bad Things. And, by the nature of consent decrees, and Dillard’s signature and all that, Dillard waives the right to disagree or take issue with it in the future. That’s cool.

      So the CFTC isn’t making a big fuss over Dillard because he rolled over. But Dillard rolled over (presumably) because he had the advice of that attorney he just hired who probably said: `dude, they’ve got you dead to rights. Give in unconditionally and hope for the best. You might be able to scam people in the future that way.’

      Well ok so it’s doubtful that, that last part was said out loud in that way.

      So, it’s always the same. Whether you are guilty or not guilty, that doesn’t really matter. What matters is, if you want to mitigate the amount of legal trouble you will have, always hire the best attorney you can buy and hope for the best.

      Sadly none of that actually helps the victims.

      It seems fairly unfair that Dillard winds up suffering every proper negative consequence except the one that would actually be the most damaging to his future career as a scammer– that of a public shaming and humiliation.

      Go Salty!

      Cages for sociopaths? I dunno. But what about a legal requirement for public humiliation and shaming for serial scammers? And a permanent place on some List of Known Serial Scammers?

      Oh wait, we have that right here already on saltydroid.info without even needing a law for it. The website just needs (much, much) more public attention that’s all.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

  5. A long definition of a “consent decree” or “consent order” for those that want one (like me)
    Wikipedia – Consent Decree

    A consent decree . . . is a final, binding judicial decree or judgment memorializing a voluntary agreement between parties to a suit in return for withdrawal of a criminal charge or an end to a civil litigation. In a typical consent decree, the defendant has already ceased or agrees to cease the conduct alleged by the plaintiff to be illegal and consents to a court injunction barring the conduct in the future. A consent judgment can also memorialize payment of damages. Sometimes the defendant expressly does not admit to fault, illegality or damages. Consent decrees are used most commonly in criminal law and family law. They are frequently used by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

    1. @Wyrd, Ok so does this mean that Mr. Pousa and his croonies are going to stop this behavior of defrauding others?
      I am just amazed this guy does this stuff at all, since he is in the habit of mistreating his investors and clling them names when the investors suspect fraud.

      1. @Elaine B.,

        Heck no. It means (not a lot ultimately) that Dillard agreed to certain specific terms. And if he does not follow those terms than the CFTC can hall him back into court have him found in contempt or something.

        (any lawyers please feel free to correct me. I’m typing faster than my brain is going right now, but I think that’s how it works)

        Sadly, nothing in the decree covers Dillard’s operations in general, just the stuff relating to Dillard trying to sell financial investment advice.

        What we need are criminal charges.

  6. Recently, I found one of Don Lapre’s Small Little Classified Ads lead gen cassette tapes in my childhood dresser drawer. I think I paid something like 5 bucks for it when I was 16 or so… around 1995ish or so…

    Had no clue he committed suicide. I used to love watching his infomercials when I was growing up. It looked so real.

      1. @poilu ::

        Not really :: sociopaths don’t have creeds … unless you want to count “me, me, me!” as a creed.

        Objectivism is about being slave to non-emotional rationality :: it has no tolerance for gods … or unicorns … or taking things that you haven’t earned.

        It’s currently being abused and grossly misrepresented by dipshit read-nothings like Mike Dillard and Glenn Beck {not to mention Paul Ryan}. The ghost of Ms. Rand :: even cleansed of her human impurities by death like Darth Vader … still wants to choke the shit out of them all for sures.

    1. @Doctor Mario,
      Twaddle.  

      I think that if the characters Dagney Taggert, Hank Reardon, and John Galt were real (or if Ayn Rand were alive) they would have a few things to counterpoint Mike Dillard’s citation of Atlas Shrugged.  I’d be willing to bet that Dillard has never read the book and was merely using the reference to, once again, make himself appear to be smarter than everyone else in the Twitter Room.  

      The “scammers” I think you should be referring to could be summed up in one word: “Solyndra.”  That scam makes this scam look like child’s play.  

      This scam took $53,000,000 from 1,500 people which is nothing less than venal.  And the scammers here should be held accountable.  

      But, as far as I can tell, each of the 1500 have a brain and can make decisions on there own.

      Solyndra, on the other hand, took around $500,000,000 from 165,000,000 taxpayers in the U.S.  That works out to be $3.03 per tax payer.  And NONE OF US had a chance to question the decision that directly affected EACH OF US.  Doesn’t sound like much but it darn sure adds up.

      Here’s the math on that…
      U.S. population 2011: 311,000,000 (http://www.census.gov/#)
      # of taxpayers in 2011:  165,000,000 (76,000,000/.46=165,000,000)(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
      $500,000,000/165,000,000=$3.03

      The Office of Management and Budgets Director Jack Lew let the (Solyndra) refinancing move forward without intervening, even though some OMB analysts thought a refinancing plan that favored private investors might violate the law. Lew is now White House chief of staff. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/white-house-budget-analysts-thought-saving-solyndra-could-be-expensive-move/2012/08/01/gJQAf2QGQX_story.html)

      The “private investors” have a direct financial link to the current administration.  And by following the current tax codes they may be able to use their current losses to off-set future income thereby paying less (or no) taxes.  

      There, dear Doctor, are your scammers.

      Put that in your stethoscope and hear the dying heartbeat of America.

  7. So … the people who invested gave, on average, $55,208 to Pousa. And for every person who “invested” a lot less than $55k, there’s another person who put in a lot more, because that’s how averages work.

    A week ago, if you’d asked me who puts money into fraudulent investment schemes with unlicensed managers, I would not have guessed people who have $55k sitting around, ready to allocate to a single investment strategy.

    (I’m specifically talking about unlicensed managers here, not firms like Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, which remains an SEC-approved money manager.)

    1. @Lanna,

      I like this comment on the Forbes article:

      Rick Chalek 1 day ago

      Now there’s a shocker. This, I presume to be the very same SEC that was either asleep at the switch or complicit in the Madoff scheme? The same SEC whose oversight committee’s head is married to Shana Madoff, daughter of Peter Madoff, the chief compliance officer at brother Bernie’s firm. The same SEC whose current head is Mary Schapiro, Bernie Madoff’s good, dear, old friend, as he announced both before and after his arrest. The same SEC who rejected each and every warning as Harry Markopolos tried in vain to get them to investigate Madoff, his repeated efforts, supported by documentation, consistently falling on deaf ears at the commission. Oh, THAT SEC? Maybe they continue to sanction the firm as a touchstone to the good old days.

      1. @Random stuff, @ lanna

        I rest my case.

        Banks/Hedge funds/Traders = scammers
        scammers = Internet Marketers
        Scammers = scammers

        1. @G,

          You mean it’s all the Rothchilds messing us around?

          http://youtu.be/tGk5ioEXlIM

          I think there probably is a lot of corruption going around in the world of national and international banking. I think it’s sadly never possible to know just exactly how much is real-actual corruption and how much is just plain old incompetence. I mostly like to stick with the things where real Fact-y facts are involved because otherwise, every line of reasoning seems to taper off into mad, howling conspiracy theory.

          But maybe-probably we shouldn’t let banks use fractional reserves. But we should have known that already. We also shouldn’t have relaxed the laws on usury.
          http://americansforfairnessinlending.wordpress.com/the-history-of-usury/
          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/more/rise.html

          Regarding money, it’s depressingly difficult to keep people from repeating the mistakes of the past though. The memory of why doing these things with money doesn’t seem to stick well enough. Making a law (by itself) is no real solution because once people forget why the law is important, they just go and repeal it!


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @Wyrd,
            Thing is, logically, two things can be empirically stated:
            1. If you take the time to look at how banks/hedge funds etc actually operate it becomes clear that the PREDOMINANT behaviour of the personnell in them is one of predatory and unethical kind.
            2. Human incompetence in ANY endeavour is always more than anyone sane wishes (AKA Murphy’s law but with the adendum that things go wrong mostly because a human is involved)

            Therefore the incompetence and the greed/evil alone, when mixed together is enough to screw us all up, but…and this is important…the idea that it actually IS a massive, huge, terrible conspiracy and everything is really a whole lot worse than you’d like is not in itself unsound.

            For perspective, read the book Fatherland, it’s on its 20th anniversary now and it’a lmost prescient, many of the social situations described in that future in which the Nazis win the war, is not too far off from how most of AmeriKa and the Western world works today. It might be a rude shock, but we may indeed actually exist in a fetid pond of scum created by human greed and lies that is far bigger than any of us would want to believe.

          2. @Wyrd,

            ‘But maybe-probably we shouldn’t let banks use fractional reserves. But we should have known that already.’

            We did know that already, we just decided to ignore it (helped by the paid lobbyists who argued for ignoring it)for the short term gains that really only benefitted the paymasters of the lobbyists in the long term.

            Democracy demands eternal vigilance–and you don’t get that by taking your eye off the ball, even for short term gains.

            1. @pigs trotters,

              I hate to even ask, because it’s so off-topic, but I have to know. By getting rid of fractional reserves, do you mean completely outlawing S&L-type businesses, which use deposits to make low-interest mortgage loans (according to Investopedia and therefore never have 100% of deposits in reserve? Or do you mean to simply tighten regulations that let banks play the shell game with assets so they can make more loans?

              And if you mean the former, won’t that force all banks to charge for checking and savings accounts and completely stop paying interest on such accounts, forcing many low-income people to forgo the security and benefits (debit card, direct deposit, etc.) of a bank account and instead keep their money under their mattresses?

              I want my free checking, debit card, online banking, ACH, and direct deposit, dammit!

            2. @Lanna,

              Its the shell game I object to.
              There are other workable models but the stranglehold that the big banks currently have on the system is squeezing us all into accepting the shell game as the only game in town and inevitable. Its not.

              Its going to implode anyway–thats inevitable, I just think it sensible to consider more equitable alternative systems before the implosion.

              BTW, ‘free’ banking has never been a reality, its an oxymoron, like the free lunch.

  8. Unbelievable. The fact that Dillard issues a we are all in it together statement and ends his communique by patronising his audience…

    It’s not the challenges themselves that determine your direction in life, it’s how you choose to react to them.

    We can focus on what’s taken place in the past and remain stuck there, or we can let the past go and focus on the present, and how we can use this new moment to create a better future.

    Things like this can “happen to you,” and you can be diminished by them, or things like this can “happen for you,” and you can learn and grow from them.

    We have chosen to move forward and grow from this.

    Please stay tuned for more updates here in the coming 24 hours…

    …means he has balls of brass. They needed some electric shock treatment – which is what SD is doing. Great article. My hope is that the CFTC will wake up, and be embarrassed into action, or something.

    Side question: Does anyone have the back story of Richard Branson – otherwise known as ‘beardy’ here in the UK – being in the first photo?

    1. @Random stuff : being an idiot. Apologies – not Richard Branson at all. A bit of a doppelganger though. That’s what beards do.

      1. @Random stuff, – no wait, it’s true – Richard Branson is all over the internet as being associated with Dillard and Pousa. So it must be true.

        The question then is: is Branson a Dillard scammer but completely innocent, or a Pousa scammer and completly guilty, or just one of the scammed (liklyhood?)?

        1. @Random stuff,

          IMHO, the question is: is Richard Branson a scammy McScam-ster?

          I know he has been called such in the comments somewhere once or thrice, but I don’t have a way to do a global search on them just at the moment.

          Richard Branson doesn’t have a category here on the site. He has been briefly mentioned I think exactly twice in saltydroid.info articles. I skimmed those, but did not really read them yet. It did not appear as if he was being implicated when he was mentioned.

          Anyway what I think I remember from the comment(s) I read many months ago was that Richard Branson had initially started off his “career” in one or more dodgy, questionable enterprises, but that he has become clean/legit as he become big and powerful.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @Wyrd, I seem to remember comments on this site about Richard Branson also…

            Anyway Richard Branson, in the ealrly days, with fledgling Virgin records decided to do some self financing of his business by not returning VAT to Customs and Excise. It was a deliberately orchestrated VAT scam – I can’t remember the structure – but was a rather stupid one. Was not too difficult to spot by HMRC. Big fines and I can’t remember if he did a jail spell.

            Since then, my understanding is that he has been largely legit… until the above photo endoresment {or not}. Perhaps he saw them as re-incarnations of his younger self?

            1. @Random stuff,

              I live in ‘merica. I know some British words, phrases and/or customs through comedians, the BBC (but I don’t watch/listen often), Doctor Who and Red Dwarf.

              I was not familiar with “VAT” and “HMRC”.

              I provide the following info for others:
              VAT — Value Added Tax

              HMRC — HM Revenue & Customs — Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs

              Basically then, in the early days, Richard Branson tried saving money by dodging some taxes. That’s always a Bad Plan(tm) with a capital “B” no matter which side of the pond you’re on. It’s a particularly Bad Plan if the money starts to really roll in. In that case, the government will always notice and the government will always come a-calling.

            2. @EthiopianCrackBaby,

              Thanks. this fits with what @pigs trotters wrote below about various scammers cozying up to Bronson for a fee and ending with:

              “The media whore [Richard Bronson] is a cut-throat business man despite the cuddly image he fosters.”

            3. @Random stuff,

              Oddly, Branson started out buying and selling mail order 2nd hand vinyl LP’s in the mid 1970’s–with no office or phone apart from a public phone box. I remember his badly typed, photo-copied monthly lists of records for sale and the pittance he paid to anyone selling. So there may be something to your: ‘Perhaps he saw them as re-incarnations of his younger self?’

              He later got lucky by signing Mike Oldfield, whose Tubular Bells album sold shedloads and is the basis of the Branson fortune.

            4. @pigs trotters

              I love it! –

              “Oddly, Branson started out buying and selling mail order 2nd hand vinyl LP’s in the mid 1970′s–with no office or phone apart from a public phone box. I remember his badly typed, photo-copied monthly lists of records for sale and the pittance he paid to anyone selling. So there may be something to your: ‘Perhaps he saw them as re-incarnations of his younger self?’

              He later got lucky by signing Mike Oldfield, whose Tubular Bells album sold shedloads and is the basis of the Branson fortune.”

              The IM scammers do seem to be reincarnations of his younger self – more so than I thought. His MO sounds similar to selling photocopied get rich quick books via classified ads.

              Getting lucky re Tubular Bells as the cornerstone of Branson’s success is a detail he omits to mention… similar to IM’ers who forget to mention rather alot of details, which then neverthless get covered, with awesome truthfulness, on this site.

              Thank you for the insight.

          1. @, & EO seems to be training trainers to train sorry coaching coachers to coach (therefor suspect…). Had a brief skim – looks like they have begged / borrowed / stolen some standard organisational effectivenes methodology, and branded it up to be all their own. However: if the methodolgoy is sound, and the training good, and businesses benefit: it is not a scam – or not? Anyone have any experience of this organisation?

            It is feeding the scamming machine though if scammers use EO to get their celebrity contacts and endorsments – in which case it would be definitely a bit smelly.

            1. @Random stuff, It’s my belief that EO is legit (though who knows), but that its administrators believe that its scammer members like Dilliard are running legitimate businesses… or more to the point, that the administrators don’t even screen for legitimacy of its members, but only their financial metrics.

    2. @Random stuff,

      Just about any celebrity/famous business person/whatever participates in events–sometimes for charity, fundraising or a combination thereof–in which any schmoe off the streets who is willing to spend the money to attend gets a ten-second photo op with the Big Name. Many times serious losers with self esteem issues then use such pictures for implied endorsements or pretend “look who I hang out with” insinuations on the internet.

      If you were to ask Branson he would most likely shrug and say they were one of several dozens or even a couple hundred people he posed with at that event. He probably couldn’t even pick them out of a police lineup the next day.

      1. @mojo, You might well be right.

        The other side of the coin is the full celebrity endorsement of scammers and worse – e.g. Oprah and James Arthur Ray.

        However there is this scam Elevation Group link:

        http://elevationgroupexposed.com/mike-dillard-and-sir-richard-branson/

        Which ends with the illiterate…

        “So when folks began hearing that Robert Hurst, several VIP guest, Mike Dillard and Sir Richard Branson met at Necker Island, curiosity spread like wildfire.

        Many are saying that Mike Dillard may be interviewing Sir Richard Branson about entrepreneurship and if thats the case those that are a part of The Elevation Group are going to be uncovering some diamonds in the rough.

        I encourage you to stay up to date on Mike Dillard and Sir Richard Branson news and you can easily do that by following our blog as we will be updating this story as more facts are revealed.”

        …which may be true, or may not – it’s certainly not beyond the remit of a scammer to spread lies.

        1. @Random stuff,

          Branson does a lucrative business in hiring out Necker as a sort of exclusive B & B (£10k a week, or is that a night?)with the unspoken addition of bragging rights for the celeb groupies.

          Yanik Silver and his crowd cosy up to Branson, for a price,and have also paid him for upcoming flights on his space tourist venture. I doubt he, Branson, would risk his own cash and rep? in scamming with these shysters but he is not averse to taking their money.
          The media whore is a cut-throat business man despite the cuddly image he fosters.

      1. @SD, Thankyou.

        Most interesting being http://saltydroid.info/tellman-knudson-running-for-cover/comment-page-1/#comment-9554 … along with the ensuing commentary.

        The ‘humanids’ approach, that one can see is blatantly adopted in the IM sphere, is also adopted in big business.

        I like to believe the best in people, and have worked at senior levels within global organisations.

        There are both genuine decent people in business, and then there are those who adopt the ‘humanids’ approach. They can, outwardly, be urbane, entertaining people.

        The sad thing is that those that adopt the ‘humanids’ approach often really succeed, and good people are churned. Though not always.

        Those that adopt the ‘humanids’ approach are plain nasty and rotten to the core – but can get some sort of comeuppance. If there is any satisfaction to be gained from Simon Sebag Montifiores excellent books on Stalin (who was as dark and nasty as Mao) – it is that Stalin had a particularily lingering and painful death.

        But I digress – as per my moniker.

        What is so hateful about the internet marketers is their extreme deceptiveness, dishonesty, and ability to manipulate, cheat and scam: the ‘humanids’ approach.

        @Ethiopiancrackbaby @pigstrotters @mojo @wyrd The irony in this chain is that Richard Branson is a media whore, but, I think he has scored an own goal by associating with the likes of Yanik Silver.

        I took the time to watch the whole video that @Ethiopiancrackbaby published the link to – thanks @Ethiopiancrackbaby (tho I need to watch more South Park).

        My conclusion: Branson is genuine. He attracts good talent. He builds (generally speaking) good businesses. He is far from a being a saint, but I do not believe disenginuity could be so extreme; he uses language such as being ‘force for good’ I believe because he feels it, rather than as it would be used by an internet scammer, to manipulate people. What he said in the Necker video resonated with me, and to my mind it was not done from his perspective to manipulate, rather it was done to promote VirginUnite.com The scammers of course will use it to manipulate.

        Branson is part of the problem if he promotes these people. However I believe he is conned into resonating with these scam artists – not too difficult if part of his nature is believing the best in people. I think Branson spots talent, engages with talent, and employs talent to build his businesses, but is not necessarily the brightest cookie in the box, and so can be (agreed repeatedly) fooled by the IMers; if they can pay good money, his view might be that they have genuine ‘helpful’ businesses.

        Branson needs to read up on this site. Understand the issue. It would be better to have Branson on board, and for him to know the true nature of the ugly Affiliate MLM Internet Markting scamm business that is the antithesis of what being a genuine entrepreneur is all about.

        I hope I am not being naïf. But shout me down if I am.

        1. @Random stuff,

          From Branson’s POV, I think that he is not associating with the likes of Yanik Silver, he is associating with their money only.

          The ability to divorce the money/power aspect from the consequences is what drives any celebrity endorsement, however tenuous and fudged. Smart celebs associate with touchy feely charities and even when unpaid expect a return in a higher profile that should deliver sales on the back end,if they pick the right charity/venue.

          Being the consumate businessman, Branson would only read up on this site and understand the issue if he could see a clear gain in it for himself and his corporate interest.

          You don’t get to be in his position(from his humble start) by worrying too much about the ethics of anything.

          I agree that he is genuine, a genuine tycoon who understands how power and money works in the world.

          I doubt he takes (or has) the time to try to understand anything else. From that lack of interest in anything but power/money comes the treatment of the masses as ‘humanids’ or cannon-fodder for his particular vision for Branson and Virgin.

  9. I listened to one of the first webinar pitches for this forex garbage and hung up when I was able to pick out a couple errors made by Pousa in his pitch fest. I knew it was worthless, and Dillard was absolutely clueless (or seemed that way). But man, Dillard is a good shit talker. It’s funny..I’m on his mailing list and he was silent for a few months earlier in the year, and now suddenly I’m getting hammered with several emails a day pushing his latest shills (like real estate investing!?!?). Elevation Group membership must be dropping like flies…

  10. Only jail bubbas will save America! Many conmen might even think it’s worth it to spend a couple of years behind the bars to later enjoy the hidden stolen millions. The only thing to correct this thinking is the physical and sexual brutality of their bubba bunkmates that turn their sentence from mere confinement to a lengthy painful journey with a regularly ripped anus. The potential of having many sizable potent penises up one’s ass for many years sure doesn’t make it worth it.

    1. @Lost my shirt ::

      Fuck you asshole!

      If you lost monies and shirts in this disaster :: then you already saw me speak out against that particular form of vile stupid talk on the T2W forum … so then why would you spew it here? That fucking committed to rape?

      The answer to crime is not more crime … grow the fuck up!

      1. @SD,
        This is a serious question:
        I accept that crime upon crime is no answer, but do you not feel that people who ruin lives should in turn have their own lives ruined?
        If the punishment fits the crime I think it IS a deterrant. people say corporal punishment is not a deterrant but that is bullshit.
        Saudi Arabia is not a place I would like to live in, however, you can drop your wallet in the street filled with cash and a day later it will still be there, cause taking it would constitute the losing of a hand.

        I am not arguing with you, I just want to understand your position on this point of philosophy better. Thanks.

        1. @G.,

          You asked @SD, not me. But this is a public forum and I happen to have an opinion on this, so here goes…

          When I hear that someone has done Bad Things to someone else, sometimes I have that reaction like “oh I wanna see that Bad Person get totally messed over! I wanna see them suffer for their crime!”

          But ask yourself this: is that justice or is that just revenge? And wtf has that got to do with making things better for the victim?

          As to deterrents: yeah doing horrible things to people that get caught can act as a deterrent. But then again, for certain people, and for certain potential misdeeds, the threat of simple incarceration is already a deterrent.

          Plus the whole “oh if u go in2 prisn, ur gonna b bubbas butt buddy” shtick is so depressingly old and unoriginal. I’m sure things like that happen in prison. But 1000 other things happen in the microcosm/mini-world of prison as well. Some of them are very horrible. Some of them are less horrible. Some of them are probably even moderately funny or something. Prison is like another world with its own culture. Mind you, it’s a world I’d prefer to never have to try to live in if given any choice in the matter ‘cuz I’m pretty sure I’d get messed over fairly badly. I also don’t stand around outside at the corner of 71 highway and Troost Ave at 3 am for much the same reason.

          If life outside of prison is random with bad things happening to good people, what makes you think life is any different inside of prison? Sure, most of the people that are in prison are guilty of something. (Being “found guilty” and actually being guilty are quite different.) But not all criminals are equally bad. (duh) Who’s to say that the criminal that winds up being some other criminal’s b*tch actually deserved that particular fate?

          Please don’t be so quick to judge whole swaths of people you’ve never even met based on a stereotype that passed into your brain by the hoi polloi of the popular culture zeitgeist thingie.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @Wyrd,

            Sun Tzu said you can judge a society on how they treat their prisoners…

            And a roman general said it best when dealing with corruption
            “Sunlight removes all corruption”

            What Salty brings is some light on the gurus. Though we could use some::a LOT:: of light on the government/school system/bank system etc, its a start.

            Keep shining the light Salty (and fellow readers)!

          2. @Wyrd,
            You asked so I’m replying:
            I do not see there is a disctinction between revenge and justice as long as the revenge matches the crime. As far as I am concerned revenge IS justice. Unless we get into the specific semantics of the words I don’t see the difference. And if you want to discuss in more depth may I suggest you go to my site and you can PM me from there and we can take this off SD’s blog.

            You have made some sweeping generalisations about what i think based on very little evidence and I am not sure how you got there, but I assure you I don’t follow any kind of social norm very much. All I said is that my personal view is that there should be punishment appropriate to the crimes commited. I believe that way. You and SD apparently do not and that’s fine. I understand SD better now and will in future keep my philosophy more to myself as I understand his work a bit more too.
            And miracles may happen and I might read up on Gene Sharp and become the next Ghandi. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one.

        2. @G. ::

          but do you not feel that people who ruin lives should in turn have their own lives ruined?

          Nope … I most def do not feel like that.

          The only thing that matters to me :: and to this fake robot project … is stopping the next harm from occurring.

          Mike Dillard going to jail would stop his harm … and it would send massive shockwaves through Scamworld in a way that I can’t come close to matching. Wishing suffering on others :: not matter what they’ve done … is ineffective and self destructive.

          Anyone who stops scamming and walks :: will be forgiven by me … no grudges. If someone stayed clean for a couple years and then asked nicely … I think I’d even help suppress this site in the rankings by removing tags and what not. The past is the past :: and we have to move on no matter how mind blowingly atrocious people’s sins may have been …

          http://youtu.be/U68E4vnWV7U

          I know who Lysander Spooner is … do you know who Gene Sharp is? Because he wrote a guidebook … and I’m trying to use it.

          1. @SD,

            I don’t know those people. But I probably should.

            I am familiar with the horror referred to in the youtube trailer.

            I agree with you — wishing harm on others is both ineffective and self destructive.

            Forgiveness might sometimes seem next to impossible. But it’s the only way we can actually move forward.

            Having said that, if there’s anything we can do to help put Mike Dillard in jail for his role in enabling the scamming of 1500 people out of $53,000,000, please let us know.


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

          2. @SD,
            Thanks for the reply. I have not heard of Gene Sharp before but I will now read up on him and find out what he wrote and read that too. If you have time to suggest where to start (name of book etc. please do, but no worries I will find it anyway).

            I am intrigued by the idea that there is such a thing as a guidebook, and if you are using it, I will definitely read it.

            I apologised earlier for my reference to violence etc. especially because of any negative impact it may have on your work, so I hope that is all cleared up now, I also wanted to let you know that this type of response from you is very important for me. It is not often that I come upon a point of view that directly challenges some views I have that are pretty deeply held, and this is certainly one case, so thanks for that.

            As regards forgiveness…I am very ambivalent about it and while I respect and admire the views of those who can truly do this, I am also truly disturbed by the fact that the sociopaths who behave like sociopaths will endlessly continue to take advantage of the ability of their betters to forgive them.

            You are right when you called me a caveman. I know I am, and I do not say that with pride, but mere objective observation. The reality is that some crimes and some behaviours, in MY personal view can only be “let go” (forgiven if you prefer that term) once retribution has been visited on the criminal. That’s just my personal view and while I guess your view is more evolved, I have never been able to honestly and truly reconcile views of such purity of spirit with who I am as a human being. In truth I am a little suspicious of most people who claim such philosophy for themselves and I often wonder if it is not because it is easier to do than to take drastic action. I do not doubt that in your case this is NOT the case by the way. You have been taking constant action for a long time in a way I would find almost impossible to do from a practical point of view, so, more power to you.

  11. As an aside another person I personally don’t believe is as white and clean as he pretends to be is Danny Sullivan of Marketing land fame. He pedals SEO tripe to millions and makes great money from selling that hope to would be SEO’s, who have no hope in hell of ever achieving anywhere near the same success, while really only lining his own pockets.

    1. @Alby, I think you are pretty far wrong there.
      Danny does say some questionable things sometimes, but he has been writing about SEO from the beginning, and he is not saying – really ever – that you can do what he does, or use SEO to make your fortune. Not ever. In over a decade. He talks about search from a sometimes Matt-covered tower of love, but he is not telling you you can do SEO and make money if you just pay him, or attend one of his conferences. That’s just wrong.
      Go read his work – the SEO tripe you refer to, may be a softened opinion because he has powerful friends, but it is not a fake blueprint or a unicorn saddle.

      Go ahead and hate on him if you want – there’s lots of good stuff out there to pick on him for -but not “you can do” unicorn parties. Nope – never, in more than a decade of writing a TON about SEO, and how it works.

      Besides – he is one of the few that actually came here, and admitted he said something stupid. That counts.

      1. @wrongo,

        True, Danny admitted to having said something stupid. After his Salty encounter, Danny wrote a whole article on his site that was very mea culpa-esque.

        And then, in the comments on that article, he wrote like a man possessed by the very embodiment of equivocation and partial prevarications.

        As @Lanna said at the time
        http://saltydroid.info/the-lego-wars/#comments

        Everything good Danny Sullivan said in the article, Danny Sullivan negated in the comments on the article.

        Danny might have done good enough to avoid The Salty Droid’s wrath. Ok so cool and stuff. Good for him. It means he has passed the very low bar of not being a total effing scammer. It does not necessarily mean that he’s totally cool and all snazzy legit and stuff.

        In some totally other article on Aaron Wall’s site, Aaron Wall said something like: In SEO these days, there are no whitehats. There’s just greyhats at best. And anyone that’s claiming to be a whitehat? Well they’re almost certainly a blackhat when you’re not looking.

        That I can believe.

        BTW that was in my own words and definitely not even close to a direct quote. So the meaning or emphasis might have shifted on accident.

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Wyrd, Never said anything about him being totally cool or snazzy or anything of the sort, Wyrd – I said he is not pitching SEO, he reports on it. He might spin or echo ideas that are pro-Google more than he should (which could very loosely be construed as misleading, if you don’t know enough to test things on your own yet), and he is often totally wrong in what he says (insulated white hat ivory tower nonsense that is not real-world applicable) – as most people are wrong a lot…but he is not lining his pockets by selling newbie dreams or encouraging people to get into SEO. That is simply wrong.
          I agree with AWOL (and your paraphrase was fine) – but that’s not the point. The point, is Sullivan is not selling scams, or lining his pockets by misleading the masses with hope, as was implied. Whether or not you agree with him, does not make him a scammer.
          But this is the wrong thread for this –

          1. @wrongo,

            Wrongo he doesn’t pitch SEO on his news sites but he does at SMX. I am just saying someone does need to shine a bright light on his SMX conferences and his reciprocated man love of Matt Cutts. When he left Searchenginewatch Matt came with him. Yet he reports on Google? How can a reporter that close to MAtt Cutts actually report on Google without bias?

            Anyway just saying. I personally think he is one of the best types of scammers. He truly believes in his shit!

  12. I know you write about these gurus from time to time,

    But this is clearly your best piece of work to date right here
    “Pretty much :: maybe “sophisticated” isn’t the best adjective to describe webinars … but I guess it’s hard to gain a proper perspective on the webz while browsing from IE6 on your government issue Windows XP computer.”

    Comedic Gold

  13. SALTY… THE ONLY FRAUD HERE IS YOU FUCKTARD… EVERY TIME I SHIT A BIG LOAD I LOOK AT IT AND THINK OF YOU!!!!

    1. @ FAKE Salty Droid (a.k.a. Perry).

      I predict that you and Ryan will be selling a frauduct called “ALL CAPS INTERNET MILLIONAIRES.”

      Because nothing screams sincerity like ALL CAPS.

      As a bonus, be sure to throw in your secret ninja techniques of using poop references and FOUR EXCLAMATION POINTS !!!! to increase frauduct conversions.

    2. @BIGLOAD ::

      … it’s good that you’re thinking about me often :: thanks for sharing … please don’t forget to sign the guestbook.

  14. It’s a fucking scam. MIsrepresentation. Shit in NYC brokers would get locked up for saying they
    went to a school they didn’t do to or had some title that they didn’t have. I don’t care who plays on
    what side or whom agrees to what regulatory agency’s terms. THEY ARE ALL GUILTY. Public Stoning
    anyone?

    1. @An I.M. Follower, Not sure if you are being too clever – i.e. “Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.” Because this site is about encouraging people to move away from scamming people – not about stoning people! The whole affiliate marketing business is all about people chasing Unicorns looking for water in the desert and running towards mirages. If mainstream print newspapers publishers make little or no money from online advertising – what is the chance that your average blog will? Of course there are exceptions – but to think that a man off the street can e.g. suddenly create a moneysupermarket.com (which again I am pretty sure is a bit of a con, because almost 100% certain it does not disclose it’s affiliate earnings) is plain stupid. The idea is already taken. You will not be able to buy an info product to help you create ‘a similar’ concept. Selling such products is just a con; nevertheless Unicorn chasers are more often duped or vulnerable people, rather than grifters by nature… e.g. http://saltydroid.info/confesstimonial-lawyers-in-scamworld/ If you really think that stoning people is a good idea – then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

      1. @Radom Stuff,

        affiliate marketing may have lots of scammers but its a legitimate model to make money without scamming people. The barrier to entry for affiliate marketing is very low and still many people fail, just like in any business. People that make good money in affilaite marketing were once average people, but if they are making good money with it now, they are no longer average.

        Alot of the stories in the industry I hear are how people were DEAD BROKE before they made it. I know this to be true because im personal friends with many people that have that story. Working 2-3 jobs some of them. Only the strong survive and persistent will make it work. Sadly most people give up. Doesnt mean the model doesnt work – its the individual (most people don’t like to take responsibility for ‘failures’). You wouldn’t know about these people because they are not “gurus” selling some make money product. They are out there buying tons of traffic sending them to websites and converting that to leads, sales, and money.

        If you believe affiliate marketing is a model looking for unicorns you won’t get very far. Affiliate marketing is actually simple concept. The ability to drive targeted traffic to a website is key and most people can’t even do that – let alone convert the traffic into money.

        1. @james,

          Alot of the stories in the industry I hear are how people were DEAD BROKE

          Well, a lot of the stories I hear from the industry are about how someone like you talks a bunch about how IM-MMO or affiliate marketing is just such an awesome thing. But it’s basically just talk.

          Only the strong survive and persistent will make it work.

          This fallacy perpetuated along the lines of natural selection seems to crop up so often, it ought to have it’s own name. It probably does, actually.

          People that try to use “natural selection” to justify either
          1) behavior typically considered by most to be amoral or immoral or
          2) the fact that some succeed and others do not
          are seriously misunderstanding “natural selection” in a manner that not coincidentally helps that person maintain bad behaviors and stupid beliefs.

          To point 1: When natural selection talks of “survival of the fittest” people often think “fittest” must always mean “physically strongest” (it doesn’t). To point 2: “natural selection” applies to whole species at a time. That’s kind of the point. You, mr. affiliate marketer, are not an entire species unto yourself. You are only one individual of homo sapiens. Your individual success or failure is not determined quite so much by natural selection. Rather your individual success or failure is determined in part by how hard you try, but also by factors you have less control over like: did you have any f*cking clue what you were doing? and always blind, random chance.

          If you believe affiliate marketing is a model looking for unicorns you won’t get very far.

          Sometimes it happens that a certain thing will turn out to be true or false regardless of whether you believe it ought to be so or not.

          The ability to drive targeted traffic to a website is key and most people can’t even do that – let alone convert the traffic into money.

          Can you do those things?

          1. @Wyrd,

            Its only just talk when your posting on an internet blog/forum with random people. There are plenty of conferences out there to meet affiliates and direct response marketers making a great living and more. LeadsCon, Adtech, Affiliate Summit are just a few of the conferences where guys that actually make money go to.

            Affiliate marketing/Direct response marketing IS awesome, for me and everyone I know. If a person doesnt want to run their own business, work from home, or anywhere in the world they desire, then it might not be awesome for those people. Of course its not as rosy as it sounds… Most people don’t like to fail and it actually can take lots of failure before the success comes around.

            Yes I drive (paid) traffic using facebook and other means. Yes I make money in the financial, education, and other markets. I’m talking from experience. Been doing this over 10 years and for 8 years I was making no money. I started with full page magazine ads 10 years ago and lost thousands. I didnt stop and now Im rewarded for my efforts.

            I drive paid traffic to my lead forms and my call center contacts them to verify the information and passes it off to the lead buyer. I dont actually sell a product and I dont collect any money at all from customers. I just generate leads and im paid for it. Google does the samething.

            Persistence is key in success. “Failure” is part of success. If only 20% of ideas, business, or marketing campaigns are actually a success – then you must “fail” 80% of the time to make the 20% work. Most people won’t do that.

        2. just curious what is “negative” about my initial post? May the negative “thumbs down” culprit speak? Are all people that make money online trashed on this blog?

        3. @james,

          The tagline of this blog is “… you can’t make money online.” That might be your first clue that this isn’t a place to brag about how much money you’re making online. Or justify your success by saying you worked harder than the people who didn’t succeed. Or victim-blame them for their failure.

          I don’t know about the silent majority of readers here, but the active commentators on this blog generally fall into two camps: anti-marketing types and marketing professionals. The first group doesn’t believe your marketing talk about how affiliate marketing is the best. The second group already knows that most affiliate marketers make legit money promoting legit products following FTC regulations. So there’s no point talking about it here. Go share your marketing insights on LinkedIn.

          Since you say you generate leads in the finance industry, can you tell us about a couple things? First, can you tell us about the compliance steps your affiliate content has to go through? And what kind of licenses are held by the companies and people who buy your leads? I think that’s a lot more relevant to the ASIC/CFTC v. Pousa et al. cases.

          (BTW, associating your business with ad:tech isn’t the best idea around here anymore. Mike Filsaime and @Shit Storm got schmoozed up by some boiler room operators there.)

          1. @Lanna,

            I didn’t know the tag line of this blog, but thanks for pointing that out. The tagline of this blog is logically and factually , not true. No one is bragging. Just talking facts. I never said or meant to say I worked harder than other people. Only that I didnt give up on what I wanted to accomplish. My goal was to work from home or anywhere I want and make money. I achieved that because of persistence and not giving up. Not necessarily working harder than anyone else. If a person doesn’t accomplish what they want – it is their fault. Its called personal responsibility. Most people like to blame others- its just how it is….

            There is a point in talking about it here. Silent readers that are NEUTRAL may actually want to make money from home. I now understand the mantra of this site,”you can’t make money online.” A bit biased. And factually not true.

            Compliance steps.. You mean like giving it to my lawyer to handle? Thats my compliance steps. And as far as the buyers.. licenses (if needed) vary state by state.

          2. @Lanna,

            (BTW, associating your business with ad:tech isn’t the best idea around here anymore. Mike Filsaime and @Shit Storm got schmoozed up by some boiler room operators there.)

            So because Mike found a call center at adtech… now adtech is not good.. There are bad things and people in every industry, doesnt mean the entire industry is bad.

            Its actually funny how so many people are quick to make my posts negative. So many emotional people on here about affiliate and direct marketing. I actually thought this blog was just about exposing scams – not a complete hatred for businesses making money online.

            This must be the blog where all the failures and losers hang out and make each other feel better about being failures and losers.

            Carry on…

            1. @James,

              Fuck off, you scamming piece of shit.

              How dare you come to a site frequented by scam victims and say victim-blaming bullshit like that?

              The post above is about how 1,500 people were conned into “investing” $53,000,00 in a scam. Dillard’s Elevation Group claimed they were going “Inside The Secret Black Box Investment Strategies Of The Rich.” Dillard claimed, “Investment Intelligence Corporation holds the world’s highest ranking for investment recommendations performance over the last 5 years. When compared with 15,137 MorningStar Funds and 195 investment newsletter recommendation services monitored by MarketWatch, Investment Intelligence Corporation’s Passive ProphetMax service ranks #1.” He claimed Pousa’s clients made over 2,501% return in two years and said, “I trust the man with my life.” When some victims lost 63% of their “investments,” Dillard blamed them, saying, “You’re a ****ing idiot.”

              Persistence isn’t going to make Pousa’s scam not a scam. Leaving money in the scam is just going to make more money go away.

              The only people who blame scam victims are scammers. The only people who blame entrepreneurs for failing are scammers.

              Fuck off, scammer shit.

              (P.S. If you really don’t know about compliance steps, the “finance” you’re marketing is all scams like Pousa’s. Scammer.)

  15. I love how Salty is trying to act like he uncovered some kind of scam here, when it was Mike Dillard himself who blew the lid off of this one.

    Let us not forget that it was Dillard who went on the offensive for his EVG members, when Pousa’s group reportedly fell asleep at the wheel and made a typo (oopsie) with millions in customer funds.

    However because Dillard was only investing money he could AFFORD TO LOSE, he didn’t close his account immediately after the epic fail. Instead he waited until Pousa’s blantant display of Faggotry (a word used to describe a general lapse in integrity) before he decided to take it on the chin and pull what was left out of the account.

    In fact I remember what Dillard had to say shortly after his webinars with Pousa (long before this inglorious shit-show was uncovered).

    His exact words were: “You have got to be fucking kidding me…”, on the news that a large number of EVG members were going all-in with Pousa.

    In his tax strategist’s own words, “Mike I’m really concerned… Many of our Wealth Strategy clients have called us up this week, cancelled their wealth strategy sessions with our team, and said they’re putting 100% of their money into Senen’s ProphetMax trading program.” <— I'm sure you've got the letter, Salty.

    To paraphrase, "Mike these greedy fucking hogs would rather tempt fate and make a quick buck than to stay the course with more conservative investment strategies and actually accumulate wealth".

    I'm an EVG member, have been since it's inception. How much did I lose with Senen Pousa? Not one greasy fucking nickel. Why not? Because I'm not a greedy, fucking emotionally attached to money, get rich quick then cry about it when it doesn't happen, hog. Plus I didn't trust Pousa.

    Whether or not Dillard did is irrelevant. A shame, but who really cares?

    Unlike many of the "victims" around here, I read Mike Dillard's words, "The Elevation Group is my personal DIARY. I am documenting what I am doing with my money, and sharing the contact information of the people I invest with so that you can work with them should you choose to do so."

    and didn't come away somehow thinking that, "Mike Dillard is a financial gooroo and I should bet every dime I make on doing exactly what he tells me to do."

    In fact I don't recall Mike Dillard telling me to actually do anything… at all… ever.

    I mean come on man… it's investing… as in all potential losses or profits are totally fucking real. If you don't have it to lose, then you don't have it at all, you greedy fucking hog.

    No doubt Pousa is a scam, but let's not start acting like you're the one who blew the lid off it, Salty. But it is nice that these people give you something to do with your life.

    You might actually do better in your mission if you didn't cherry-pick the facts into a laughably lopsided argument.

    Biddy::Biddy

    1. @ReallyDroid?,

      “More fabulously hilarious writing :”
      Elevation Prophets
      From TFA, @SD wrote

      Mike Dillard isn’t qualified :: in any fucking way :: to give you financial advice … but he’s gonna anyway … and he’s gonna charge you for it … natch. It’s totally okay though because he calls it a “diary” … so how could that be anything other than innocent?

      So, you avoided being scammed by Pousa? Good for you. But you’ve scammed by Dillard for a little while now at least. And you’re still letting him scam you. How much longer will that be going on I wonder? `cuz… for free I’ve had the good fortune to find out about the fraud-i-ness of both Pousa and Dillard and I didn’t have to pay a single red cent to Dillard for the “lesson”. … You could call it Lesson ZERO — the only lesson you really need to know.

      And… apparently the CFTC weren’t so quick to give Dillard a pass. As far as they are concerned, Dillard was actually giving investment advice. And he was doing so without the proper licenses. (There’s a reason why those licenses are required.)

      I really don’t believe Mike Dillard is qualified to give investment advice. Here’s an idea–instead of paying Mike Dillard that monthly fee, why not keep half the fee for yourself (for you know investing and stuff) and donate the other half to a reputable charity of your choice? That way everyone wins.

      @ReallyDroid? wrote

      No doubt Pousa is a scam, but let’s not start acting like you’re the one who blew the lid off it, Salty. But it is nice that these people give you something to do with your life.

      I don’t think we have Dillard to thank for that. I think we have the Trade2Win forum thread to thank for that.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd,

        So, you avoided being scammed by Pousa? Good for you. But you’ve scammed by Dillard for a little while now at least. And you’re still letting him scam you.

        So let me get this straight… Sports Illustrated is a scam because they charge you a subscription fee, but don’t show you any tits (even though you knew all along you weren’t gonna see any?)

        Man… unless I’m missing something, you are really reaching now. But you know what they say… if you go looking for a scam, you’ll most definitely find one.

        I didn’t find Dillard because I was looking for a quick buck. I was looking for relatively fresh ideas that didn’t include a 401k. I get them frequently from EVG. Some vibe with me, some don’t. Choice is mine.

        However you just admitted you haven’t spent a dime with Dillard, yet somehow you “know it’s a scam”. On which experience do you base your judgement?

        Is it from the words of a few who didn’t quite understand the choice was there’s all along?

        I’ll bite… lay it on me.

        1. @ReallyDroid?,

          However you just admitted you haven’t spent a dime with Dillard, yet somehow you “know it’s a scam”.

          I haven’t been hit by a car either. But I still know being hit by one would be very bad.

          On which experience do you base your judgement?

          What expertise has Mike Dillard actually presented to you? He claims to be letting you inside the investment secrets of the ultra-rich–well how’s that working out for you?

          Before the Pousa thing exploded, it was being heavily promoted by Dillard and his “band of brothers”. Now, personally I think Dillard knew Pousa wasn’t legit, but chose to promote him anyway. If I’m correct, then Mike Dillard was totally a complicit scammer.

          But suppose Mike Dillard really was innocent. Suppose he only ever had those potential investor folk’s best interests at heart. It sure is nice of him to go to the CFTC (and thereby save himself by ratting out Pousa). Even if Dillard is totally innocent as he claims for Mike Dillard to not spot Pousa as a con, when you yourself have already said that you could tell there was something fishy about Pousa, shows Mike Dillard to be grossly incompetent at what he claims to be an expert in.
          … hey, wait– doesn’t claiming to be an expert at something that you’re not an expert at count as fraud? Oh yeah. It does.

          Either way, Mike Dillard is a fraud– through malicious intent or gross incompetence, take your pick.

          Q.E.D.

          1. @Wyrd,

            Is it customary for you to answer questions with questions?

            The hole in your logic is that Mike Dillard ever claimed to be an expert at investing. He didn’t.

            Any expertise that I learned from Mike Dillard is totally unrelated to EVG.

            Dillard also lost money in Pousa’s scam, but like I alluded to earlier, it was money he could afford to lose and didn’t make a big stink about it until he realized Pousa was ducking the issue and not taking responsibility for it.

            You actually bring up some valid concerns, but again they are speculative at best, due to your admitted lack of dealings with Dillard or his companies.

            Not that I think you don’t make a good point, but as someone who has done business with Dillard’s companies, I actually know what it’s like (as opposed to acting like I know what it’s like for the sake of some saucy SD scam fodder).

            Yes, car crashes are bad. I would not describe my dealings with Dillard’s companies as car-crash like. Although I might if I was on the losing end of this, but again everyone makes their own choices.

            I agree, it’s disheartening that Dillard himself would have been fooled by Pousa, but maybe Pousa is that good of a scammer. Maybe Dillard got too close to the guy to see it. Who cares? Dillard isn’t your scammer.

            Problem is, a dude like Dillard isn’t going to take it lying down, which is why he he laid the cards on the table for the authorities.

            It really sucks that so many people took money from sound investments and moved it for the 28% money-shot (there’s your unicorn), but they did and they lost.

            One can only hope that Pousa’s days are numbered and that somehow, Dillard’s efforts to recoup on behalf of EVG members are successful.

            This shit could take years though.

            Carrot cake, anyone?

            1. @ReallyDroid?, Dillard made a heap of cash selling fradulent financial services to his list The fact that it was him, or Pousa providing the financial services is a moot point.

              Dillard made money out of people getting defrauded.

              If cared a shit about his clients he would do the due dilligence if he was capable of it. And if he was not capable of it, then he should not have been selling the product.

              The same can be said for every last financial adviser who sold Madoff (who like Pousa, gave huge commissions).

              The Madoff sales team, and the Pousa sales team are frauds: whether “malicious or incompetent” – per Wyrd – is immaterial.

              Dillard, and anyone who makes money from selling fraudlent financial products, should go to jail. It is what the world of Finance desperately needs. Jail is the best language of deterrence for a potential fraudster to pay heed to.

              As for your inspired brilliance {or not} in paying money for Dillard’s services, and getting value from them… very suspect. My bet is that you are Dillard himself.

    2. @ReallyDroid?, What utter bullshit. When the shit hit the fan, obviously you were dislodged from Dillard’s asshole. He belongs in jail.

  16. I haven’t always been on the EVG mailing list … when did they add this language?

    Before undertaking any action described in this letter, financial or otherwise, you should discuss your options with a qualified advisor– accountant, financial planner, attorney, priest, IRS auditor, Tim Geithner.

    Was it in the original 2010 emails? In fact :: if anyone still has those orignal launch emails … please forward them right along to me like good little kitties.

    BTW Dillard :: if you make your disclaimer a joke … then the government can argue that your disclaimer was just a joke. Why don’t run that bullshit past Brent Baker before you send out another desperate email … he might as well tell you something useful as long as he’s busy taking all your money anywayz.

  17. Here is the full disclaimer from the original. This is from October 2010.

    Neither this email communication nor content posted to the website TheElevationGroup.net is intended to provide personal financial advice. Before undertaking any action described in this letter, financial or otherwise, you should discuss your options with a qualified advisor– accountant, financial planner, attorney, priest, IRS auditor, Tim Geithner… Also, nothing published in this letter constitutes encouragement to avoid or evade tax obligations in your home country. Furthermore, you should understand that TheElevationGroup.net may in some instances receive financial compensation for products and/or services which are mentioned in the letter, and in other cases, TheElevationGroup.net receives no compensation. The needs of the community come first, and the presence or lack of financial compensation in no way affects the recommendations made in this letter.

    What makes it a joke? Is it the idea that Geithner probably shouldn’t be listed as a qualified advisor?

    Other than that it seems to be a pretty transparent, “nothing to see here” disclaimer.

    Of course, you’re the lawyer, so what do I know?

    1. @ReallyDroid?, Are you me? Sounds like me. I feel really bad about My first move as CEO of Elevation Group being to endorse Mr. Pousa, but really good about Mike taking all the heat.

    2. @ReallyDroid?, Tim Geithner would be too busy to give most people advice on marvellous frauduct, or fradulent financial services – so was intended to be humorous. Identifying a priest a qualified advisor *for financial purchases* was a joke.

      Looks like the joke might backfire…

  18. I need to speak with Joel Friant … if anyone’s got his contact details please pass them my way.

    Joel :: come and speak to me … or tell your lawyer to take my calls.

  19. Well I admit to being duped by Dillard.

    I hit the “buy” button before finding the scam alert. Oh and this is after the CFTC won its court case.

    I sent a rather terse letter to MasterCard advising them that they were still processing payments for a scam and therefore committing fraud.

    I was happy when the £382 (c. $600) was credited back to my card.

    Will be doing a lot more due diligence in the future.

    Oh and to the Brits on here waiting for a refund from Dillard – don’t bother with the bank go straight to the FSA – they didn’t mess about and were very good actually.

    1. @Dicksta,

      Glad you got your money back.

      Yeah, due diligence = good. Also, general guideline, don’t listen to anyone that sounds like Dillard. Anyone that writes the kind of thing he writes–the only real question is “how much of a scam is it?” Not “is it a scam?”.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd, Agreed. I am a too trusting Libran.

        Unfortunately, the basis of all transactions has to be – “I trust you to be honest”. Now that any virtue has been completely destroyed by our financial system, what hope remains?

        I am also incensed that Dillard is not in jail. Yeah they went after Pousa but $53 million?!! All Dillard was done for was registration violations.

        Although I do suggest you read the full court judgment here as Dillard’s basically singing like a canary: http://www.prophetmaxreceivership.com/uploads/2012.11.15__39__Consent_Order_of_Permanent_Injunction_and_Other_Statutory_and_Equitable_Relief_Against_Defendant.pdf

        Given the amount of money these people lost (I fortunately cancelled the day after signing up) I think Mikey boy would do well to start looking over his shoulder and avoiding dark streets.

        Funny thing, karma.

        Peace from a freezing London.

        Dicksta

  20. I’ve come to conclusion that Salty Droid is really a plant by the syndicate to preempt the whiny babies, round em up and prevent them from becoming serial refunders. Well played, Droid…

    1. @ReallyDroid?,

      You’ve come to that conclusion? Well gee that’s just so unbelievably interesting. I mean, really fascinating, and I congratulate you just totally. Well done. You can be proud of yourself. And how exactly did you come to that conclusion? Please show your working.

    2. @ReallyDroid?,

      The lack of logic in your post is so absolute, when I try to think through it, it makes my head explode.

      1. @Wyrd, Well it’s not really that hard to follow the logic. When someone is looking for a scam they usually find one. I can just imagine someone looking into Dillard’s work for the first time and saying, “Is this a scam?” Then they search ‘mike dillard scam’ and boom… there’s a well placed Salty sitting atop the serps.(like a well trained syndicate SEO BOSS!)

        So then they get lured into the non-usefulness and scary bad people-ish nature of this site and they convince themselves it must be a scam. Therefore they don’t buy anything from Dillard that they would inevitably refund anyway because they are get-rich-quick little piggies who ALWAYS find the scam they were looking for. This saves the big bad scammmers a ton of refunds and customer service hours that they can now better spend with customers who are actually glad that they bought whatever it is that they bought.

        Let me know if this is going to fast for ya.

        So it’s not really that hard to see how Salty helps these guys out tremendously. It’s not like people who actually have any business buying home business info would ever take Salty’s ramblings as anything substantive.

        I mean look around… I’ve never seen a website with so many whiny fucking “me too” comments from people who have no personal experiences with actually being scammed, by anyone mentioned on this site.

        You’ve all been duped into attending the loser party.

        1. @ReallyDroid? ::

          I guess I’ll create a sign up sheet and whoever wants to get the SaltyDroid BizBoost for their scam business can just sign up. {for best results from BizBoost … please attach several pieces of audiovisual evidence that tends to be incriminating}

          For each d-bag that signs up for the program :: I’ll give @ReallyDroid? a $100 commission. Why don’t you go out and start spending the money now @ReallyDroid? You’re sure to be rich in no time.

          1. @SD, You still don’t get it Droid. Money is a poor motivator… unless you’re a little greed monster who believes in getting rich overnight, in your underwear on mommy’s laptop, charging info products to your credit card then crying about it when you realize there’s actually work involved in business.

        2. @ReallyDroid?,

          I mean look around bozo – there are large numbers of comments on this site people who have been scammed, and who have given *precise* details on how they were scammed, and expressed regret on not finding this site earlier.

          You are remarkable because of your ability to write cogently – many of the dissenting commenters on this site can barely write at all, and are largely C list or B list wannabee scammers who are well and truly brainwashed.

          However the fact that you can read about the appalling abuse documented on this site by many IM A team individuals, from Ray downwards, and write what you have written, might mean that you are part of the Sociopath A team – whose speciality is unpleasant manipulation and extrators of cash from people in vulnerable positions.

          Go on – out yourself. Are you a VP of ClickBank? A leader of an established IM Pyramid Scheme… a VP of Scientology or…

          But – if you operate an honest business – please provide the links. You could get some good traffic from good honest people.

        3. @ReallyDroid?,

          “Well it’s not really that hard to follow the logic. When someone is looking for a scam they usually find one.”

          Are you sure about that it’s not maybe you thinking of the Marx Brothers?

  21. @ReallyDroid?,

    That’s amazing. I’m in awe of your logic. Your logic is more twisted than a hyper-pretzle that’s being sucked into a blackhole’s singularity.

    I wouldn’t ever have been able to come with something that bizzzare. My hat’s off to you.

    But basically though, what I think you’re saying is that saltydroid.info is nothing more than a pile of anti-MMO propaganda. Propaganda that will fool the n00bs into not buying into the product.

    Your basic premise

    When someone is looking for a
    scam they usually find one.

    is inadequate and incomplete. A better version might be: “Often, a person who has already made a semi-conscious emotional commitment for or against a particular thing will seek out rational-seeming info that supports that commitment.”

    In skeptic-speak this is known as “confirmation bias”. There’s no good way to completely avoid having it happen to you. The only thing you is try very hard you only let yourself believe things where there’s factual info to back it up. And even then, you have to be ready to change your beliefs based on any new facts that might come in.

    It can be very difficult to live this way. I try to as best I can.

    If you were to do the same, you might notice that your argument is contradicted by many facts including that many Dillard victims are, in fact, n00bs, and that the syndicate makes it a point to engage in price fixing which is straight up illegal.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd, You said:

      A better version might be: “Often, a person who has already made a semi-conscious emotional commitment for or against a particular thing will seek out rational-seeming info that supports that commitment.”

      That’s fair. Long-winded, but totally fair.

      But since we’re being long winded and fair, why is the premise of this site, “You can’t make money online.”

      Shouldn’t it be: “If you’re emotionally attached to money and make decisions about money based on emotions, then you shouldn’t be trying to make money online. It’s too dangerous for you. Just get a safe, secure job. If your only motivation is to make money, then you might make money online, but probably not.”

      This comes back to what I said a hell of a long time ago on this thread which is that Salty Droid would be much better served in his mission if there wasn’t a lop-sided argument. If Salty really wants to stop people from getting scammed, why not help people to stop making emotional decisions to spend money they don’t have, based off of some copy they’ve read privately, by themself, sitting at their computer, with no gun to their head.

      I mean come on… If you come to this site and shit your pants over the $97 you just spent on an ebook, just because you read the carnival of shame that is the commentary on this site, then you probably didn’t have the $97 to begin with, plus you have no accountability to yourself and you’re just as dishonest as the folks you claim to have scammed you.

      They didn’t scam you, you scammed them. You bought their digital product, refunded for it and got to keep it anyway. Some folks might consider that theft, but not by the person offering the products and issuing refunds in good faith.

      1. @ReallyDroid wrote

        But since we’re being long winded and fair, why is the premise of this site, “You can’t make money online.”

        Shouldn’t it be:

        A tagline isn’t the same as a premise.

        A tagline is

        A tagline is a variant of a branding slogan typically used in marketing materials and advertising. The idea behind the concept is to…

        saltydroid.info’s tagline is the living antithesis to the IM-MMO tagline. The IM-MMO tagline is

        And you can too!!

        The IM-MMO folks use dobulespeak. At various points in their copy they swear up and down that they don’t market to newbies. But the IM-MMO folks don’t-market-to-newbies in exactly the same way that the cigarette companies don’t-marketed-to-children.

        I.e. The IM-MMO crowd actually do as much marketing to n00bs as they can possibly get away with, but will always pay lip service to the notion that they totally aren’t marketing to n00bs.

        Anyway, you finished with a screed that started with

        I mean come on… If you come to this site and shit your pants over the $97 you just spent on an ebook,

        Also you previously specifically mentioned Mike Dillard. I was just browsing his FB page. I’m trying to find where he, specifically, is marketing $97 e-books. I’m sure he has in the past. And he might be right now, for all I know. Could you show me some sales copy of Mike’s where he’s marketing a $97 e-book?

        1. @Wyrd, $97 is just an example of what you typically see info products sold for. Mike sells stuff ranging from $39.95 and up.

          Wait a second… hold the fucking phone.

          You mean to tell me that you don’t have any idea what products Mike Dillard actually sells, past and present, yet you guys speak authoritatively on his business practices?

          Before we go any further, please tell me you’ve actually bought one of his many products and have actually felt slighted in some way. Otherwise this really is a complete and totally embarrassing shit show.

          1. @ReallyDroid?,

            You wrote {with such flourish}

            You mean to tell me that you don’t have any idea what products Mike Dillard actually sells, past and present, yet you guys speak authoritatively on his business practices?

            Before we go any further, please tell me you’ve actually bought one of his many products and have actually felt slighted in some way. Otherwise this really is a complete and totally embarrassing shit show.

            Embarrassing indeed. For you.

            Quoting an earlier exchange between you and myself from earlier on this very PAGE

            @ReallyDroid:

            However you just admitted you haven’t spent a dime with Dillard, yet somehow you “know it’s a scam”.

            And my response:

            I haven’t been hit by a car either. But I still know being hit by one would be very bad.

            And, because I’m guessing you might not know how to do a Ctrl+F search, here’s a # link to the comment on this page.
            http://saltydroid.info/suits-vs-prophets/#comment-90923

            I’m ending this farce now. Because I’m only half-way trying, but I still got better things to do than debate with someone who selectively forgets the conversation that had a couple months ago.

            I’ll give you this: so far, of the comments I’ve scanned on saltydroid.info, you currently hold the title for Most Twisted Use of Logic In Service To Confirmation Bias.

            So based on that, I’ll let you have the last word.

            (This is the part where you get to tell me how sad and deluded I am or where you make it look like you proved me wrong.

            But really, @ReallyDroid, it’s all just empty words. Mike Dillard clearly scams, and he scams well. He scams so well that you don’t even realize how much you’re helping him hurt people simply by the act of coming here and justifying his actions.)


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

            1. @Wyrd, Oh no… I totally remember you having a dodge-the-fucking question answer back then too. There’s a tagline for that (or is it a premise?), it’s called being full of shit. So again, since you’re making it really clear, this is all just speculation and unsubstantiated bullshit.

              I don’t need to defend or justify what Dillard does, but I’ll certainly call bullshit as someone who actually has done business with his companies, when folks so brazenly speak out with such fervor about him being a scam artist, who haven’t. I know to the contrary. What do you actually know?

              (This is the part where you tell me I’m a victimized little lamb speaking out on my abuser’s behalf… puke).

              Sure this Senen Pousa trainwreck was certainly one for the ages, but again, Dillard also lost a wad in that mess.

              Are we just going to go round and round, or are you just going to go ahead and admit that you really just don’t have any info, or personal experience to speak of on the matter and should probably abstain from doing so?

              Being Droid’s happy little elf surely can’t have enough prestige for you to compromise your own integrity.

          2. @ReallyDroid?, I can admit about that I can’t know if I have the *ken t’ponder* so many of the marvelous methods
            from which mr. Dillard made up his own traffic-money-oasis to make real money. Or I can’t know about how he went on to show his friend “Eben” who probably didn’t know anything about email-money-ideas how to use his power-strategy
            for making $250,000 just by sending a few emails, which I think is 3 or more, but probably not like 12, because
            then probably mr. Dillard would say something more like “a dozen” for him not to be too confusing for everyone who went about AlWays wondering how a 20-something stopped from waiting tables to getting *wiser for marking* up 7 figures in 18 months – and by selling most certainly real products and not some sort of
            funny-money schemes where maybe somebody might think WMI LiVE RENT FREE BY NOT PAYING YOUR MORTAGE!” which probably is like other good financial advice the WMI-people tried on to make so much more from so much less than so little…

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/56079685@N07/8285854248/in/photostream

  22. @ReallyDroid?

    How do you know that “Dillard also lost a wad in that mess.”?

    Are you privy to Mike’s personal financial affairs or is this statement based on the tale as spun by Mike?

    In an earlier comment, you wrote “If Salty really wants to stop people from getting scammed, why not help people to stop making emotional decisions to spend money they don’t have, based off of some copy they’ve read privately, by themself, sitting at their computer, with no gun to their head.”

    I think the information provided on this site does help people to avoid faulty emotional decisions, such as wasting money on pyramid schemes and crapulent products promoted by the type of scammer discussed on this site.

    That’s probably the best that can be hoped for.

    At the end of the day, anyone who happens on the Droid site while researching a self-described “internet marketer” product or scheme will simply have more information on which to base their, hopefully non-emotional, decision as to whether they want to get involved with that “marketer”.

    And if Mike … or any of the other wastes of skin discussed on this site and their equally waste of skin apologists … feel they’ve been libelled by the Droid, there is legal recourse available.

    From the tone of your comments, it comes across to me that your own view is people who get scammed, whether by direct fraud, misleading advertising or whatever other means … deserve to be so.

    Fortunately, there’s no western nation legal system that I’m aware of that shares your view in this regard … though I’m sure people like Bernie Madoff, Dillard … and likely yourself … would prefer the courts to be on their side against the hordes of the living scammed ravening for chargebacks and other relief.

    As concerns your statement that “Money is a poor motivator…”, last time I heard this one was years back when a former employer cancelled the financial award aspect of the employee suggestion program … indicating that people prefer positive feedback, a nice little appreciation plaque, etc., over the more ephemeral award of lucre.

    I always found it odd that this rationale never carried through to senior management bonuses … given that obviously a manager would prefer a pat on the back and “job well done” form of appreciation over a monetary award.

    But, that’s another story.

    Obviously the folks here

    http://www.betternetworker.com/forums/main-mlm-discussion-f2/who-are-the-top-mlm-leaders-in-your-eyes-t30369.html

    aren’t aware that money isn’t much of a motivator as it seems to be a major topic of discussion.

    Perhaps you should share your view on the matter with them.

    You said “I don’t need to defend or justify what Dillard does, but I’ll certainly call bullshit as someone who actually has done business with his companies, when folks so brazenly speak out with such fervor about him being a scam artist”.

    Given the consent order linked to in the article and Mike’s signing of it, I wouldn’t call it “brazen” to refer to him as a “scam artist”.

    I’d call it documented fact.

    But, that’s just my opinion and I can understand where folks who are wedded to the notion that their participation in and flogging of pyramid schemes make them a “legitimate business person” might not agree.

    Just differing opinions.

    And speaking of “dodge-the-fucking question”, Random Stuff asked you to provide a link to your own “legitimate business” and I haven’t seen it yet.

    And there’s the thing.

    All you or any other bottom-feeding “internet marketer” needs to do to prove Salty wrong is provide some evidence that you have actually used the products and schemes you flog to earn a living from something other than pyramid schemes or selling folks on the belief that they can earn money online legitimately … often without the “hard work” you mention and anyone with the slightest knowledge of “self-employment” is aware of … is required.

    But none of you ever come up with the goods … or go after the Droid for libel (as one might expect a “legitimate” business person might do to protect their reputation.).

    What’s up with that?

    1. @DGR, you asked: “Are you privy to Mike’s personal financial affairs or is this statement based on the tale as spun by Mike?”

      No, but I am the privy to his business practices which is more than can be said about anyone else trying to have this conversation. That being said, I have no reason to believe that Mike didn’t really put his money in and then didn’t immediately pull it out after the big hit. If somone here does doubt that any of that actually happened,so be it, but neither of us can really prove any of that I guess.

      you said: “I think the information provided on this site does help people to avoid faulty emotional decisions, such as wasting money on pyramid schemes and crapulent products promoted by the type of scammer discussed on this site.”

      Of course all of this is accomplished without first actually establishing that said marketer is a scammer. All I see is a bunch of dicks talking about a scam they believe is actually there. Then when you ask for proof of being scammed you get stupid bs replies about car accidents. By the way, pyramid schemes are illegal. You really should make sure you know what one is before throwing that term around. Ask Frank Kern.

      “From the tone of your comments, it comes across to me that your own view is people who get scammed, whether by direct fraud, misleading advertising or whatever other means … deserve to be so.”

      No. I’m suggesting they weren’t actually scammed at all. Look I hate to hear of bad things happening to well-intentioned, hard working people, but that’s not who we’re talking about is it? I also really hate to see people do bad things to themselves. I also really hate to see good people looking for direction get discouraged by the likes of the gaggle that hangs out on this site.

      I didn’t trust Pousa… something about him didn’t jive with me, so I didn’t take that plunge. However I have little sympathy for folks who knew the risks but still go for that huge, ridiculous return on investment (Mike D included). That’s just greedy.

      “And speaking of “dodge-the-fucking question”, Random Stuff asked you to provide a link to your own “legitimate business” and I haven’t seen it yet.”

      And you won’t see it. I’m not in the IM/MMO business and I’m not interested in getting traffic from serial refunders. I do make a full time living and do a large percentage of my business via ecommerce. Learned a lot from Mike Dillard when I transitioned to doing business online and NONE of my earnings come from affiliate promotions for other’s products. Like I’ve mentioned, money is not what motivates me. But I sure as hell love not having a boss.

      “But none of you ever come up with the goods … or go after the Droid for libel (as one might expect a “legitimate” business person might do to protect their reputation.).”

      By your own logic how come none of the folks around here talking smack ever go after the person they claimed scammed them? Could it be that it didn’t actually happen? Oh that’s right, you didn’t even do business with them. I gotta hand it to ya though… Salty is way more fun that ripoff reports.com

      You have to admit, for one substantiated claim of impropriety, there a shit-ton more that are just crybaby nonsense.

      “Given the consent order linked to in the article and Mike’s signing of it, I wouldn’t call it “brazen” to refer to him as a “scam artist”. ”

      I’m not a legal professional, by any stretch, but the Plaintiff is the CFTC (not a Dillard customer) and Dillard is listed as a Defendant, but it looks like Friant is eating all the shit. How does this effect Elevation Group and where do they admit to any wrong-doing? I’m also not seeing where Dillard actually signed it. Please correct me if I’m just not seeing it, or if what I’m looking at is cut-off or something (21 page pdf?).

      1. @ReallyDroid?, Let’s dissect the genius of Mike Dillard in reversing order as he gets so much smarter and smarter over time as all great business-people are going to do:

        PART I of many of the historical-Mike things:

        1. Most recently geniuses his way into doing stuff with:

        ProphetMax/Sousa who know all about money-stuff or maybe not it seems.

        2. Then before geniusing his way to PM-Sousa, mr. Dillard geniuses way into doing stuff with Wealth Masters International who know all about money-stuff or maybe not so it seems as for some reason they can’t pay bills and then get investigated by many different countries (most as seen previously on SD-site):

        * Norway Gaming Board – WMI Still a Pyramid.
        And also sayeth Norway DSA that WMI is a scam.
        * SEC Probe (which from what I can seem-out, seems not to be resolved up until now yet).
        * New Zealand wants to know how many NZ people get geniused into WMI all the times).

        Probably mr. Dillard should let his old WMI friends about how to use QBasic Money Manager and how to get it for free at no cost.

        Part I complete.

        1. @Jack, Part I complete addendum-dum-dum:

          Apparently from mr. Kull:

          “The information Mike Dillard is uncovering is worth several times the annual fee. The best advantage to becoming a member is the access to the latest information on a regular basis. Just to give you an example, Porter Stansberry’s Research Alliance membership now comes with a 10 thousand dollar up front price tag. Stansberry Research is one of the sources Mike Dillard uses for financial information.”

          If that one gets marked true, then it makes mr. Dillard’s geniusing-round-the-money more and more baffling for everybody who AlWays wanted to know stuff about him.

          A minute of due-diligencing not only could make mr. Dillard aware of Porter-insider-knowledge-claiming-fraud scheming, but also something any smart-businessperson might want to know about sources-of-info:
          http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mdd-1_03-cv-01042/pdf/USCOURTS-mdd-1_03-cv-01042-0.pdf

          “the Court finds that the SEC has not proven that any individual associated with the entity, other than Stansberry, had actual knowledge of the fraudulent scheme.”

          &

          “For the foregoing reasons:
          1. The Court finds that Plaintiff Securities and
          Exchange Commission has proven by clear and
          convincing evidence that Defendants Pirate
          Investor, LLC and Frank Porter Stansberry violated
          Section 10(b) of the Securities and Exchange Act
          of 1934, 15 U.S.C. § 78j(b), and Rule 10b-5
          thereunder, 17 C.F.R. § 240.10b-5.

          2. The Court finds that Plaintiff Securities and
          Exchange Commission has not proven that Defendant
          Agora, Inc. itself (as distinct from its
          subsidiary) violated Section 10(b) of the
          Securities and Exchange Act of 1934, 15 U.S.C. §
          78j(b), and Rule 10b-5 thereunder, 17 C.F.R. §
          240.10b-5.

          3. The Court concludes that:
          a. Defendants Pirate Investor, LLC and Frank
          Porter Stansberry are jointly and severally
          liable to pay the Clerk of Court the sum of
          $1,312,620 as disgorgement of profits.
          b. A penalty be assessed under 15 U.S.C. §
          78u(d)(3)(B)(iii) against Defendant Pirate
          Investor, LLC in the amount of $120,000.
          c. A penalty be assessed under 15 U.S.C. §
          78u(d)(3)(B)(iii) against Defendant Frank
          Porter Stansberry in the amount of $120,000.

          4. Judgment shall be entered by separate Order.
          SO DECIDED, on Wednesday, August 1, 2007.”

          …tiMING!

      2. @ReallyDroid?,

        When the governments of New Zealand, Australia, the United States, and the Netherlands call ProphetMax a fraud, I am content to surmise that ProphetMax is indeed a fraud without ever having purchased something from Mike Dillard.

        On page 19, Mike signed the consent form for himself personally and for Elevation Group. The consent order is kind of like a plea bargain. On page 4, it says the defendants “neither admit nor deny the allegations,” which included violating eight regulations. Mike does admit that he promoted ProphetMax and he was supposed to receive 30% commissions on his leads’ $2,000 “membership fees.” He also admits most of the people he solicited weren’t qualified for these investments and that he didn’t hold any of the appropriate licenses.

        You can keep telling yourself that Mike {conveniently} didn’t know it was a scam, but it’s an international fucking fraud and Mike Dillard was neck-deep in it.

        1. @Lanna,

          It looks like my initial reply to you didn’t post.

          I double-checked page 19 and I don’t see Dillard’s signature anywhere. Are we not looking at the same document? I’ve got this one:

          http://www.prophetmaxreceivership.com/uploads/2012.11.15__39__Consent_Order_of_Permanent_Injunction_and_Other_Statutory_and_Equitable_Relief_Against_Defendant.pdf

          Also, Dillard was the one who got the investigation opened on Prophet Max, which is why I initially commented on this post about it.

          @Jack

          I have an EVG Membership and don’t recall being introduced to a Porter Stansberry via Mike or EVG. How reputable is your source? Krull, or whatever.

          1. @ReallyDroid?, “I have an EVG Membership and don’t recall being introduced to a Porter Stansberry via Mike or EVG. How reputable is your source? Krull, or whatever.”

            I don’t know about how reputable he is – which is why I had to go and say IF it’s true – and see if I or others can find more about it.

            1. @Lanna,

              Thanks for the link. Isn’t Mike Dillard american?

              Wow, this consent order is much different from the Friant one.

              This basically says that they fucked up when they failed to register before soliciting folks to forex and that they shouldn’t do it and that they’ll probably have to pay an undisclosed amount for doing so, plus returning any commissions to CFTC.

              It also says that they did disclosed to EVG members and non members that would receive commission from Pousa (like I said they did).

              I also saw something in the language of this consent order that seems like it really helps Mike Dillard out tremendously, but I’ll leave it to you guys to figure out what that is.

              The part I will admit that I always found odd, was why this forex offer was made to non EVG members. Seems like Mike broke one of his own rules by not qualifying his prospects.

              Slap on the hand for being dumb I guess.

              So we’re in agreement then… Pousa’s company is a scam?

              Thanks again for the link.

            2. @ReallyDroid?,

              AFAIK, Mike Dillard is an American operating out of Texas. The first government agency to take action against Pousa et al. was Australia’s ASIC. You’re saying Mike Dillard got the government investigations opened, so I’m wondering why the Aussies moved first if the tip came from an American. Did Dillard contact Australia directly? Did he report it to the SEC, and they contacted ASIC, who acted first?

              We’re all in agreement that Pousa’s company is a scam. And Friant and Dillard handled sales for Pousa’s company. Did they know it was a scam? I inferred from the Droid’s posts that Dillard knew it wasn’t above board and sold it anyway. Unless Dillard’s left some smoking-gun video, audio or chat log on the Web in a public folder, we have to draw our own conclusions.

      3. @ReallyDroid?, @ReallyDroid?,
        Re: “…none of the folks around here talking smack ever go after the person they claimed scammed them.”

        You infer that most of the readers of this site are serial refund chasers. *Not true.* Most of the readers of this site stop buying the rubbish, and move back into real life. Some still spend time here because the site is fascinating, and it exposes scammers in a very entertaining way. *It would be true to say that most scammers do not give the refunds they promise.*

        However claiming a refund is the first step in going after the person, and some of the folks who have been scammed will request a refund. When the scammer doesn’t offer a refund, and also offers no valid address, phone number, or email that is answered it makes it difficult for a person to go after the scammer – even more so if the folks are elderly, psychologically vulnerable, or in bad financial straits.

        However, the reason why some people do not go after the scammers is that…

        Some are brainwashed.

        Please read this: http://saltydroid.info/sheeple-part-5-mind-raping/

        Some are dead.

        Please read this: http://saltydroid.info/hearts-on-fire/

        This sites exists to help prevent abuse, and provide a chance, for those still able, to get away from the very nasty IM / MLM machine.

        You write a pack of lies exceptionally well – similar to the best IM / MLMers. You say that you are not in the IM / MMO game, and have a normal online business. What utter tosh. Of course you are.

        1. @Random stuff,

          You said: “You infer that most of the readers of this site are serial refund chasers. *Not true.* Most of the readers of this site stop buying the rubbish, and move back into real life. Some still spend time here because the site is fascinating, and it exposes scammers in a very entertaining way. *It would be true to say that most scammers do not give the refunds they promise.* ”

          Fair enough. Let me further qualify it then. I don’t want/need traffic from the false-information digging/reporting NON-CUSTOMERS (and therefore never requested a refund that they didn’t get) on this thread, because you are all disingenuous zealots who don’t really sound like the kind of people I would want to do business with.

          You also said: “However claiming a refund is the first step in going after the person, and some of the folks who have been scammed will request a refund. When the scammer doesn’t offer a refund, and also offers no valid address, phone number, or email that is answered it makes it difficult for a person to go after the scammer – even more so if the folks are elderly, psychologically vulnerable, or in bad financial straits.”

          Needless to say, someone who doesn’t honor a guarantee that they themselves posted and offered should be pursued for relief. However, again, I haven’t seen one person on here, other than myself, who has actually done business with Dillard, let alone claims to have requested a refund and not gotten it.

          Nor do I recall a time when Dillard packed up shop for a year only to to resurface later to conduct the same business under a different name and address, that he didn’t notify his subscribers/ customers about. In fact I remember getting the email update when they did move offices, but it’s not like the websites disappeared OR the customer service contact was unavailable.

          You said:

          “You write a pack of lies exceptionally well – similar to the best IM / MLMers. You say that you are not in the IM / MMO game, and have a normal online business. What utter tosh. Of course you are.”

          Marketing your business over the internet is not the same as being in the internet marketing/ make money online business. I don’t sell business training, but I sure as hell buy it when I am in the market for for it.

          I’ve bought some weak info before, but I didn’t request a refund because even weak info has at least one piece of useful info in it. In my opinion, Dillard’s stuff has been particularly helpful. Regardless, I don’t request refunds unless I’m having a serious problem accessing information that I’ve paid for and thankfully that’s only happened once, but the vendor was quite accommodating and pleasant.

          As far as being a “liar”. Again I’m the only person having this conversation that is a Dillard customer. That’s makes me the only one qualified to have this conversation. If someone else has been an unsatisfied customer of his that would like to offer a ‘real’ perspective, it’s welcome and I’ll totally respect what that person has to say. But until that happens, are you sure it’s not the rest of you who are lying?

          1. @ReallyDroid?, How utterly pathetic you are. You are clearly the zealot. How far will you go to insert yourself up Dillard’s rectum? You are no “customer” of Dillard’s. That’s a flat-out lie, and it’s patently obvious.

            You actually said: “I didn’t request a refund because even weak info has at least one piece of useful info in it.” That’s one of the most ridiculous comments made here in recent memory. It underscores your disingenuity.

            So far, Dillard has had a major come-uppance provided by the FTC, but that does not mean he’s seen the end of it. Nor does that mean other agencies aren’t going to come rolling up to visit him. He should be worried.

          2. @ReallyDroid?,

            You portray Dillard as the most excellent type, who really helped you, and somehow retaining blinkers with regard to a whole load of information which somewhat contradicts your position.

            I think the arguments against Dillard on this page stand up for themselves.

            But to move away from Dillard, to help you understand more the themes behind this site:

            Here is a program by the BBC on the “Internet Millionaires Club”

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xy2b

            If you prefer videos (to learn about marketing I prefer to read books, rather than having to go through videos delivered by someone like Dillard, but call me a Luddite) you can have a peruse through the ones on this page:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v1ykr

            By the way, calling contributors to this site “all disingenuous zealots” is a bit like Scientologists calling the BBC Panorama journalist John Sweeny a bigot.

            But if you really love the info marketing stuff, have a listen to this guy on TED… I think he’s up your street, and you can get some more good value from him…

            http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_robbins_asks_why_we_do_what_we_do.html

            I believe even a cursory analysis of the text of his speach reveals it a whole load of pap. Some of the commenters (thankfully!) agree.

            But for some more analysis on this particular IMer…

            http://saltydroid.info/category/tony-robbins/

            ….I hope, perhaps in in vain, that you will concede this argument. And I am still interested in what your business is – bearing in mind your most excellent defence of the not very nice scamming community.

            But your comment…

            “Fair enough. Let me further qualify it then. I don’t want/need traffic from the false-information digging/reporting NON-CUSTOMERS (and therefore never requested a refund that they didn’t get) on this thread, because you are all disingenuous zealots who don’t really sound like the kind of people I would want to do business with.”… gives a hint – looks like you are in info marketing after all?

  23. @Carl

    What’s “patently obvious”, is that you guys have run out of arguments. So before you let 30 more clowns out of the car, does anyone have any proof of wrong-doing other than the investigation that Dillard himself set into motion?

    You guys have tried saying he’s a fraud because “frauds don’t issue refunds or respond to customer service” and have offered no proof with regard to Dillard. One guy said he canceled/ got his money back, but he admittedly never even tried the customer service route and went straight to his Credit card. Good for him. It’s neither here nor there.

    You guys have tried the CFTC consent order, but like I’ve said, unless I’m looking at a different one, I don’t see that he signed it or what it actually means for EVG or Dillard.

    I’ve simply made the very reasonable assertion that perhaps you shouldn’t be going out of your way to join this “me too” scam conversation, when you don’t have anything substantive to contribute, which everyone seems to want to deflect and say,” but, but… look over here at this other thing.”

    We’re not talking about anything else. We’re talking about Dillard and EVG

    And you guys don’t have anything other than what I’ve pointed out all along, going back to my very first post about this… Dillard got the ball rolling on the investigation.

    You guys are sure going a hell of a long way to prove that you don’t have a fucking leg to stand on.

    Just give me something for christ’s sake…

    1. @ReallyDroid?, Something? Something more than things about all the scams he and his business partners keep going to get involved with you mean?

      What an odd thing to want for these holidays – still wishing for magic wands would want us to think you were wiser than it. Still don’t have the ken t’ponder why you wish to stay in scamworld.

  24. @Random stuff

    I wouldn’t know if Mike Dillard is the “excellent type”. I’ve never met him.

    I’m not defending the IM world. You’re confusing the conversation on this thread with the conversation of this blog.

    I’m not even defending Dillard. I’m suggesting that your attacks on the guy are empty at best because not one person here has any personal stories of being scammed by him, nor stories of others that can be substantiated by people who have been scammed by him.

    You said: “looks like you are in info marketing after all?”

    Now who’s logic is twisted? You’d have to really stretch to even imagine how you came to that conclusion.

    Let me ask you a question…

    If you had a conversation with someone who swore up and down that that there was this huge scam going down, but could not point to one instance where it actually happened (and don’t tell me the consent order says anything of the sort because it doesn’t), nor one person it actually happened to, went out of their way to pull lateral example from totally unrelated persons of business, gave a definition of the scam that doesn’t fit the person they are referring to…

    Would you give them your business card?

    I’ll say it again. Doing business over the internet does mean you are in the internet marketing business. Marketing is just part of business.

    1. @ReallyDroid?, If you want to get back on point – the SD post above was not about Dillard selling info, it was about Dillard selling Pousa.

      The scam going down was Pousa at the top, and then all the MLM cogs further down – Dillard being the biggest one.

      SD’s logic, though impenetrable to you, is pretty clear to me:

      “Fraud is about deception :: and Mikey D-bag was {and is} responsible for bringing the people in … and then hooking them through the lip of their insecurities from his lie pulpit. I’m forced :: by the facts … to admit that he’s quite good at it.

      If Mike Dillard was an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra-rich :: then he would have known that Senen Pousa is a laugh out loud obvious unqualified scammer … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud because he sold the crap out of him anyway. If Mike Dillard isn’t an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra rich and is instead just some dumb former waiter who knows shit about shit and so couldn’t see Pousa coming from a mile {or an ocean} away :: then the whole basis of The Elevation Group is fake … and that would make Mike Dillard a fraud.”

      Info marketers do know how to sell. If you paid your $97 or whatever to Dillard, and learnt how to sell, well lucky for you (though it is not relevant to this post…) – though I am astonished that what you got was not just more of a sales letter or sales video to sell you more info products or services.

      Please provide a link to the excellent product or service that you bought from Dillard – might help your credibility.

      I would love it if there were some other noble people out there who also irrelevantly talk about how Mike Dillard sold them some excellent info. But there are not. I think you might be the only one. I’d still like to know what your IM business is all about.

      And by the way the term Internet Marketing has been somewhat blackend by the internet scamming community. It is also a rather silly term if you think about it – no one is marketing the internet, as people pretty much know about it anyway. If you want to be seen as a non scammer – why not use the the more correct term Online Marketing? But you might not have heard of it.

      Sales or marketing which is based on deception, lies, and cultish brainwashing is bad. Online or offline. Why not spend some time visiting the links in my last comment to understand the concept a bit more?

      1. @Random stuff,

        you said: “If you want to get back on point – the SD post above was not about Dillard selling info, it was about Dillard selling Pousa.”

        Agreed. I came here to point out that it was Dillard and not Salty who actually brought that to our attention. Hence the self imposed moniker “ReallyDroid?”. Besides they’ve already been assessed the 5 yard penalty for illegal procedure.

        You said: “If Mike Dillard was an expert on the financial strategies of the ultra-rich…”

        He’s not. That’s not what EVG claims either. They are exploring said strategies via folks who are experts in those strategies. Clearly Pousa was a mistake.

        You said: “I would love it if there were some other noble people out there who also irrelevantly talk about how Mike Dillard sold them some excellent info. But there are not.”

        Sure there are. They are called testimonials. Happy customers give testimony (ie. word of mouth referral). The difference between unsubstantiated scam claims from people and testimonials from happy customers, are that testimonials must be true and indicative of a “typical result” or otherwise indicated if not.

        But before you say something stupid like, “Anyone can fake a testimonial”, you should probably read this:
        http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/10/endortest.shtm

        you said: “Please provide a link to the excellent product or service that you bought from Dillard – might help your credibility.”

        What’s the point? You don’t even know which products he sells. Tell you what… Why don’t you tell me which product receipt you would like to see and if I bought it, I’ll dig the receipt out of my records for you. Just be aware that I’ll totally photoshop my personally identifiable info out of it with impunity.

        Will you produce someone who’s actually been scammed by Dillard, other than the Pousa incident in which Dillard made us aware of?

        you said: “why not use the the more correct term Online Marketing”

        I did use the term ecommerce. Do you not prefer that one either?

          1. @Jack,

            Sure… I guess the FTC is funny. I still think Tim Geithner being a qualified anything is funnier.

        1. @ReallyDroid?,

          In your last comment “You said” should read “SD said”. You don’t seem to be concentrating.

          Dillard is a scammer because he sells scams – Pousa’s scam being one example. The argument that he was taken in does not wash because he presented himself as an expert – which is untrue, and therfor also a scam.

          Re Dillard’s products – we have you to rely on that they are the most excellent stuff – but you wont even give us a link to the sales page one of them that you bought…

          I did look for some testimonials for Dillard, but they don’t seem to have credibility, as they are still promoting the elevation group…

          http://www.homebusinessproductreports.com/network-marketing/network-marketing-gurus/mike-dillard/

          http://dcincome.com/blog/mike-dillards-elevation-group-review/

          Perhaps you can help your Dillard marketing by giving some links to some genuine testimonials by genuine people, who are not part of the inner IM ring, who are the only ones who make money from the IM scam…, and who are NOT selling and earning commissions on Dillard’s products.

          No more flimflam please. Just some evidence.

          1. @Random stuff,

            Yep. I heard ya. Which product sales letter would you like to see (for the 10th time)? The testimonials will likely be on the sales letter. Not the reviews. Reviews are often done by people promoting. Testimonials are usually directed to the vendor, unprompted.

            By the way, his stuff really isn’t that hard to find, it just seems you guys don’t know very much about him.

            1. @ReallyDroid?,

              “a link to the sales page one of them that you bought.” from my last comment = the answer to the question “Which product sales letter would you like to see?” i.e. the link to the sales letter of the most marvellous product that you have purchased and benefited from so much.

              Also – some evidence on how you benefited… or provide some real before and after stats. Go on – enough of the flimflam. Even if anonymous – if true – they might resonante as reasonable.

              By the way – reviews, in the world of honest people, are done by people giving an honest opinion, and who are not in it for the money. Likewise for testimonials in the world of honest people. Of course, before you go bleating down a side track – there are many duplicitous people who will pretend they are providing independent reviews, and in fact not reviewing but promoting – be it in the press, or on line – but this does not make it legal or justifiable.

              But you are part of the world of the scammy internet marketing liars and confidence tricksters – and that is why you can make a statement as ludicrous as ” Reviews are often done by people promoting.” Reviews are not promotions. An honest person would have said “Fake reviews are often done by people promoting.”

              Hung by your own petard.

        2. @ReallyDroid?,

          In the consent order, Mike Dillard admits he failed to follow CFTC regulations regarding licensing and investor qualifications. Why should we believe he followed FTC regulations regarding testimonials?

          Mike is using a bunch of common Scamworld tropes:

          I’m not an expert.
          “The Elevation Group is my diary.”

          But I suckceeded.
          “Implementing what I’ve learned and documented, I’ve averaged a 77% return per year since 2008 without buying a single stock, …”

          And you can, too.
          … “and countless EVG Members have taken back control of their financial destiny.”

          Everyone else is getting rich.
          “In less than two years, The Elevation Group has grown to more than 40,000 Members in more than 60 countries, and is one of the fastest growing companies in the US.”
          (Quotes are from the home page copy at MikeDillard.net.)
          We’re getting rich using seekrits.
          “Taking You Inside The Secret Black Box Investment Strategies Of The Rich”
          (Quoted from the home page at TheElevationGroup.com.)

          SEEKRITS!

          Does Mike Dillard have any products besides Elevation Group now? MikeDillard.net says he “retired from the direct-selling industry in 2010 in order to pursue [his] passion for financial education and investing.” But then over here it says he still has Magnetic Sponsoring, Building on a Budget, MLM Traffic Formula II, Black Belt Recruiting, PPC Domination, What’s Working Now, The Copywriters Guild, and Inner Circle Newsletter.

          I guess that is the seekrit of being retired/not-retired.

          1. @Lanna,

            I agree, and thanks for posting that.

            For me, this is the crux of the issue

            Mike is using a bunch of common Scamworld tropes:

            Most specifically, that Mike Dillard (and anyone else relying on the standard Scamworld tropes) effectively takes up two logically contradictory positions, but does it in such a manner so that you won’t notice.

            At one point he will say, in effect, that he is not an expert. But then he will proceed to write about things and promote things in a manner that would really only make sense if here were, in fact, an expert.


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

          2. @Lanna,

            First off, thanks for actually looking at this rationally and without the scam bias… and for not being lazy.

            All of the above listed products fall under the Magnetic Sponsoring Brand. MS was his first info product (this is one of the ones that I bought in 2007).

            While MS is still his company, he is not the active CEO any longer, after passing the reigns to someone else. One of the things about creating an asset like a business is that eventually you’ll want to be able to walk away from it, pass control to someone else, sell it, etc.

            So in 2010 he did effectively retire from the brand, although it’s still his asset and the products he created still bear his name as the author. some were created by others, but released by MS.

            As far as your very reasonable question about whether his testimonials would be legit and compliant with FTC…

            It’s also reasonable that due to the popularity of Magnetic Sponsoring in particular, that if there was a discrepancy, it would have already been reported and investigated since FTC changed the rules in 2009.

            No business is going to risk it’s revenue generating websites being taken down over a questionable testimonial. You could look into them yourself and ask MS to verify them.

            With regard to EVG’s violation, again this is where one would have to prove a willfulness to violate. It is possible to operate outside of the law without being aware of it. The consent order says they agree they did and that they won’t do it again, but it is with regard to the forex recommendation only, not the rest of the EVG lessons.

            None of the other lessons fall under CFTC regulation. The rest are different ways to invest that don’t involve trading of any sort. (except for one lesson about stocks in particular, which EVG really isn’t big on anyway). Mike put the stock interview together and was quite open about not being anything close to an expert about stocks.

            When you quoted his marketing: He does back it up with real numbers, but they are his numbers. If every EVG member made the same investments then all of us would be on pace to have the exact identical returns, but we all don’t because we all don’t make the same investments. We are just introduced to them through the EVG lesson videos, which by the way, are not Dillard giving investment advice, rather they are interviews with experts in each particular strategy WHO ARE licensed in what they do.

            Like I mentioned, I didn’t choose to invest with Pousa and I have not invested with some of the other strategies either. The investments I have made have seen significant gains since 2010. Compared to Dillard’s returns with the same strategy, I’m not too far off his return claims. I’m right there with his numbers for the most part.

            Yes, EVG may be exploring “seekrits”, but the idea is to make them not “seekrit” and I have to say, I would never have known about some of them without EVG. And the ones I did know about, I now understand them because of EVG. That’s what EVG is about. It’s not for giving investment advice. No one is there involuntarily. No one invests involuntarily. When we do invest, it’s still our money and we still control where it goes and we understand the risks.

            Pousa grossly misrepresented the risks in the webinar, as documented by the consent order and that’s why all the shit is going down. (have you ever watched someone speak who always seems like they have a lump in their throat as they tell you a lie to your face?… Pousa on the webinars).

            “But I suckseeded” – In the context of EVG we are exposed to an understanding of the strategy by an expert on the strategy (not Dillard). The investments I’ve made are up and seeing returns and I am certainly no expert. So, “you can too!” is not a sweeping statement, or misleading in the least.

            This isn’t “start a business from your bathroom like I did and get rich like I did, without doing any of the work that I did.”

            EVG is “here’s a strategy you may not have ever heard of or even knew existed, or maybe you have but don’t understand it. Let’s a take a look at it. I’m investing my money here and I’ll report whether I’ve lost or gained. Here is the contact information of the gentleman who explained the strategy to us, if you wish to contact them as well.”

            In other words, you don’t need experience or expertise to put money somewhere. You’re just more likely to get a return if you understand why you’re putting it there. This also assumes that you have money to invest and that you are aware of the risks before doing so.

            I’m in total agreement that pretending to be an expert is a scam, but admitting that you’re not an expert while simultaneously interviewing experts and presenting the interviews as a product is not scammy. It’s serving a need. How do we know? Because there’s a market for it.

            Well in keeping in the spirit of keeping my word, I’ll go dig up the receipts of Dillard products I’ve purchased and I’ll give a brief explanation of why I bought it and how it actually helped me.

            You guys do realize that none of the above products are IM/MMO products, right? In fact they all assume you are already in business.

            1. @ReallyDroid?,

              I wish the FTC was looking into this. To me, Mike Dillard saying, “Implementing what I’ve learned and documented, I’ve averaged a 77% return per year since 2008 without buying a single stock, and countless EVG Members have taken back control of their financial destiny,” without showing typical results is a violation of those 2009 rules.

              Again, I’m not sure how the newness of the 2009 FTC rules would mean Dillard and Elevation Group would’ve followed them when, per the Dillard consent order, they violated 2010 and 2012 regulations [“Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act of 2010 (“Dodd-Frank Act”), Pub. L. No. 111-203, Title VII (the Wall Street Transparency and Accountability Act of 2010), §S 701-774, 124 Stat. 1376 (enacted July 21, 2010), 7 U.S.C. § I et seq., and the Commission’s Regulations (“Regulations”) promulgated thereunder, 17 C.F.R. § 1.1 etseq. (2012)”].

              I get what you’re saying about the consent order only being about Dillard promoting Pousa’s forex scam, but the order forbids Dillard and Elevation Group from participating in a lot of activities. I think it’s gonna be tough for Elevation Group to continue without violating those agreements.

              Do you think it’s typical for Dillard to get a 30% cut from the experts he introduces to his subscribers?

              According to the CFTC, the kind of leveraged forex trading Pousa was doing isn’t legal for non-eligible contract participants. Have the other videos introduced investments that aren’t open to retail investors? (Maybe that’s why you didn’t know about them.)

              Looking forward to the receipts and product info.

            2. @ReallyDroid?,

              Kind of like how Michael Corleone in GF3, putting his past behind him, was a legitimate businessman. Please.

  25. @ReallyDroid?

    As concerns “what it actually means for Dillard and EVG”, I’m not sure if this can be fully answered at this time.

    As you’re aware, a couple of things Dillard signed off on are:

    “44. Dillard and Elevation shall jointly and severally pay disgorgement, plus post-judgment interest, to clients.

    45. Dillard and Elevation shall jointly and severally pay a civil monetary penalty, plus post-judgment interest, to the CFTC.”

    The information on receiver’s web page mentions this as well:

    “On the domestic front, the Court has already entered a Consent Order concerning Mike Dillard and Elevation Group, Inc., in which Mr. Dillard and Elevation Group agree to pay disgorgement and a civil monetary penalty as determined by the Court (see paragraphs 44-46). The disgorged funds may be available for the Estate and later distribution to injured.”

    Mike’s version of events at http://theelevationgroup.com/prophetmax-fraud-case/ is:

    “During that initial meeting, without being asked, we volunteered to give all sales commissions received from Senen Pousa back to EVG Members immediately. Our company is based on providing value, and there was no way that we would keep a dime from anyone under these circumstances. Legally, this process is called disgorgement, and we’re grateful to the CFTC for their help in this process.”

    Now whether the meeting went down as per Mike, i.e., “without being asked, we volunteered to give all sales commissions received from Senen Pousa back to EVG Members immediately” or the disgorgement discussion was more along the lines of Salty’s statement that it was a matter of Mike “basically agreeing to totally eat it now in the hopes of avoiding an even worser amount of totally eating it later.” is something only the meeting participants know.

    My reading of the document is that Mike agreed he and Elevation had broken the law in respect of whatever went on in the promotion of Pousa’s scam to Elevation members.

    “4. Failure to Register as Required

    27. At no time during the relevant period was Elevation registered with the Commission as an Introducing Broker (“IB”), nor was Dillard registered with the Commission as an Associated Person (“AP”) of an lB.

    28. Dillard, and/or other agents or employees of Elevation committed the acts described herein within the scope of their agency, employment or office with Elevation.”

    Mike’s statement in regard to this is ” Even thought we cooperated just as fully with the CFTC, their laws have a technical provision tht says that we should have been registered before telling anyone about Senen or the other Fraud Defendants.”

    I find the above statement completely hilarious for a number of reasons, not the least being that it seems reasonable to expect that someone who has claimed to read a large amount of investment literature and has “SEC counsel” (which based on the consent order info would seem to be this gentleman: http://www.clydesnow.com/attorneys/listed-by-name/209-brent-r-baker )would at no point ever have a hint of there being regulatory law … or potentially annoying “technicality” … in respect of their promotional activities.

    Like, for example, the legislation mentioned in the Consent Order and the “Texas Securities Act” (TSA).

    http://www.usinvestorlaw.com/state-securities-law/Texas.php .

    Getting back to the question of “what it actually means for Dillard and EVG”, it seems to me that the relevant “known” facts at this time are:

    1)that Mike and the Elevation Group, Inc. are on the hook to pay … if this hasn’t already been paid … a “disgorgement” amount, a “civil penalty” amount and a “post-judgement interest” amount.

    2) Mike has, in signing off on the consent order, agreed that he in fact broke the law … or in his view “technicality” … in respect of his ProphetMax promotion to, at the very least, Elevation Group, Inc. members.

    In this regard, it may just be a matter of paying the amounts mentioned
    in 1) above and everything will then be over for Mike and Elevation and its members.

    If the Elevation Group, Inc. doesn’t have the money to pay the amounts mentioned in 1), my … perhaps erroneous … guess would be that the corporation could go into bankruptcy.

    Can’t say what the impact of that might be for members, some or all of whom might want to get their own legal opinion re: “what might this mean for me” in this regard.

    As for Mike, again comes down to whether he has the money to cough up his share of 1) and for 2), whether entities such as the State of Texas end up prosecuting him for breaching certain provisions of the above-mentioned TSA.

    I’d like to see this happen, if only to see how much weight Mike’s apparent attempts to distance himself from, for example, an “investment adviser”, as defined at “N” under the TSA “Definitions”with statements like “Now I am not, nor will I ever claim to be any kind of financial or investment guru” and the cheesy disclaimer on the Elevation Group site would have with the court.

    If the court found that Mike has broken TSA law, I assume the penal provisions of that act would come into play.

    It seems to me the above might also apply to anyone in the Elevation Group who promoted Pousa’s program.

    If I were an Elevation Group member and/or lived in Texas, I’d certainly be running this by whoever, e.g., Attorney General, is legislatively responsible for administering the TSA and requesting an opinion as to whether Mike and the (based in Texas) Elevation Group actions in this affair were legal under the TSA.

    To my mind, convicting Mike and anyone else involved in the promotion of Pousa’s scheme under legislation such as the TSA and packing them off to the slammer for a few years would send a very strong message to the right people, e.g., promoters of and potential participants in similar schemes.

    I won’t hold my breath in this regard. Will just have to see what the future brings.

    You wrote “I also saw something in the language of this consent order that seems like it really helps Mike Dillard out tremendously, but I’ll leave it to you guys to figure out what that is.”

    Didn’t see anything like this myself, so please share.

    Re: your earlier comment that “By the way, pyramid schemes are illegal. You really should make sure you know what one is before throwing that term around”, I’m quite aware that pyramid schemes are illegal and I believe I know what one is, or at least, what the red flags are … certainly moreso than some of the poor saps in this thread:

    http://www.betternetworker.com/forums/main-mlm-discussion-f2/what-is-your-definition-of-a-mlm-vs-pyramid-scheme-t30649.html

    I really got a hoot out of one commenter who stated “As to what is Considered to be illegal or Pyramid, is down to the Individual to Decide.”, given that the FTC might disagree in this regard.

    And of course the entire thread is inane in that it doesn’t matter what my or anyone else’ personal definition is. What matters is what the law has to say in this regard.

    The actual determination of whether a company or scheme is a pyramid can only happen after a review of the company/schemes financials and is in the hands of whatever court or government agency is legislatively mandated to make that decision.

    The best any of us can do is offer our personal “free speech” opinion as to whether a particular scheme seems “pyramidy” to us.

    Which I have no problem doing.

    You said “You have to admit, for one substantiated claim of impropriety, there a shit-ton more that are just crybaby nonsense.”

    Well, no I don’t have to admit this and unless you have data in this regard, this statement falls into the category of your personal opinion.

    This type of statement is pretty much the same I’ve seen on various web forums through the years by IM’ers and their associates in respect of any question raised about their … in my view … dubious programs or any concern expressed by a consumer that the IM’er’s product failed to deliver the … in the consumer’s view … promised results.

    That being said though and based on my own experience, I know there are serial chargeback folks who are ethically challenged and scammy themselves.

    Whether there is a “shit-ton” of these compared to folks who have a, in their view, legitimate complaint and reason to chargeback is, for me at least, unknown.

    You wrote, “going back to my very first post about this… Dillard got the ball rolling on the investigation.”

    I can’t find anything that would confirm that “Dillard got the ball rolling”, other Dillard’s statement below:

    “when we caught our very first whiff that something might be wrong, we immediately contacted our SEC counsel and flew them down to Austin.

    After reviewing an entire history of the events since meeting Senen, it was our legal team’s opinion based on more than 30 years of combined experience, that we needed to comply with our responsibility to contact any and all governmental authorities to alert them to the potential problem.

    We immediately contacted the SEC, CFTC, and Australian authorities in order to share all facts and information with them regarding our interactions with Senen, and IB Capital.”

    An article at http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/us-authorities-accuse-brisbane-firm-of-53m-fraud-20120920-267mu.html says:

    “Pousa’s fraud came to light in May, when investors discovered their accounts had lost 63 percent of their value after about 200 trades had occurred in a two-day period, the SEC said.”

    Now maybe Mike is the “investors” mentioned in the article.

    Regardless, his motive in getting “the ball rolling” could be either that it was “the right thing to do” or it could be that Elevation members started putting the heat on Mike and he realized that the jig was up and “got the ball rolling” as a strategy to cover his own ass.

    An individual’s view on this will likely differ based on whether they’re in the “Mike as a stand-up guy” camp or the “Mike as a two bit IM hustler” camp.

    And in either case, it’s personal opinion as only Mike … and maybe his lawyer … knows what was going through his mind and what his motives were.

    Here’s another article for anyone who is interested:

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/asic-and-the-3m-prophet-20120730-2388w.html

    You wrote: “So we’re in agreement then… Pousa’s company is a scam?”

    Based on what I’ve read, I’d agree. But just my personal opinion.

    Only opinion that ultimately matters is that of the court.

    Same with the “scammer” thing.

    Based on your own claimed personal experience with Mike and his products and business practices, you obviously wouldn’t put him in the scammer category.

    Other people, whether they’ve ever done business with Mike or not, might see him as a good fit for that category based on their own experience of the IM world and knowledge … and in some cases, maybe evidence that they’re currently not into sharing.

    If Mike ever ends up in court facing charges related to this matter, the question of whether he’s what most might consider a “scammer” may be settled.

    Until then, seems to me that it’s a matter of personal opinion … and anyone visiting this blog is free to decide for themselves how much weight that opinion should be given.

    You wrote “Slap on the hand for being dumb I guess.”

    Guess time will tell whether this ends up being just a “slap on the hand” for Mike.

    I don’t think anything is near being over in this regard but, who knows?

    1. @DGR,

      The double post would indicate that you’re experiencing as many internal server errors as I am. Salty ought to have a chat with his hosting company (talk about a scam).

      I pretty much agree with your entire breakdown.

      One thing though, and you might have said that no one knows for sure, but my understanding is that the SEC council, Clyde Snow et al was only brought into this after they thought there might be something awry, so I don’t think they consulted that firm prior to introducing Pousa to EVG, otherwise they might have seen this coming. (hind sight’s 20/20, eh?)

      Now here’s something nobody knows for sure, but perhaps EVG did give the commissions back to the affected members, but then got that same amount imposed again by the CFTC. However since I’m not seeing any $$$ on the consent order, that might not have happened and only either the CFTC or EVG members got it… if that makes sense.

      I’m sure this is far from over, but I really don’t expect Dillard to see anything more than post-judgement civil penalties for not registering before hand.

      Like I said, I’ve done business with his companies many times over the last 5 years or so and have gotten a ton of value for my money.

      Oddly enough, I initially didn’t think that I would because my industry is waaaaay far removed from the network marketing industry and didn’t see how his work would be applicable, but surprisingly it was. Hence the repeat business and my interest in EVG when he moved in that direction. I’ve been happy with that too. I’m just really glad I ducked this horror.

      This whole thing has been like a roadside accident, where you don’t want to look, but you can’t seem to tear your eyes away.

      My issue with some of the commentary here is simply that while deceptive business practices are definitely deplorable, I certainly don’t see how folks who slam a particular business or business person they have never had dealings with, is any less deplorable.

      I did read the “Death Ray” article and that’s just tragic. However Salty’s editorializing, post-sentencing nonetheless, doesn’t do anything for the victims or anyone else, except maybe his own readership. I don’t see how that gives him the moral high-ground.

      Oh the cleverness of him. Please congratulate him on his cleverness and decency for me.

  26. @Lanna,

    Friant actually worked for Pousa. Dillard did not, but made the mistake of taking commissions for referrals without being registered to refer business to Forex traders. I wonder if Dillard would be named as defendant if he had not taken commissions.

    Yes… my understanding is that after the big hit, Dillard contacted Pousa to find out what the hell happened (keep in mind the hit only affected managed accounts, not the smaller quant accounts… robot traded accounts) but did not close out his position, waiting to see if Pousa would admit that they dropped the ball.

    Pousa then went on to take no responsibility whatsoever and even went live with a webinar that basically shit all over Dillard and the EVG members. Pousa even took down the Prophet Max facebook page, rather than facing up to the heat from investors. At that point Dillard withdrew his investment and sought council. Then his lawyers contacted the appropriate authorities.

    EVG members were kept in the loop on the developments as they unfolded.

    Again, this is my understanding of the timeline, which is quite close to what you’ve suggested as the possible chain of events.

  27. Mike Dillard: “Even thought we cooperated just as fully with the CFTC, their laws have a technical provision tht says that we should have been registered before telling anyone about Senen or the other Fraud Defendants.”

    That’s like saying, “their laws have a technical provision that says we should have been licensed physicians before giving out medical advice.”

    A “technical” provision? No. It’s the LAW, period. There is nothing “technical” about it! And, it’s a very well known law, like the law that requires you to have a license to be a doctor!

    Mike Dillard was operating outside the law, period. He profited from people who were scammed. That is the bottom line.

    Dillard is brazenly attempting to distort and minimize his conduct.

    Just as outrageous is the lowlife jackass who actually came here to defend Dillard’s indefensible activities. It’s an affront to all the victims.

    It also represents this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

  28. @ReallyDroid?, you wrote “I wonder if Dillard would be named as defendant if he had not taken commissions.”

    It seems to me that as Mike has, in signing off on the Consent Order, admitted to breaking the law, pondering what “might have been” is at this point moot.

    “Further, on September 18, 2012, the court entered a consent order of permanent injunction and ancillary equitable relief against defendants Michael Dillard and Elevation Group, Inc. According to the consent order, the court found that Elevation Group acted as an Introducing Broker and solicited orders from non-ECPs in connection with leveraged forex transactions without registering with the CFTC. The court further found that Dillard acted as an unregistered Associated Person of the Elevation Group, according to the order.”

    http://cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6353-12

    Interestingly enough, despite having brought, according to him, this debacle to the CFTC’s attention and “volunteering” to disgorge an unspecified amount, Mike isn’t listed in the “CFTC appreciation” comments that follow the above quote.

    If I was a Elevation Group member, the question I’d be asking is “Would Dillard have promoted the alleged fraud if he wasn’t being paid commisions?”.

    If I was Mike, the question I’d be asking is whether the State of Texas will be coming after him as well with charges under that state’s “Securities Act”.

    I’d hope that would be the case but, as mentioned in my previous comment, I won’t hold my breath.

    I think Phil’s comment above is dead on.

    As he mentioned “Dillard is brazenly attempting to distort and minimize his conduct.”. Hopefully his after the fact attempts to CYA won’t fool anyone and the Texas authorities will come knocking on his door some time soon.

    And who knows what will come out at the P

    It would be interesting

    1. @Anonymous, you said: “I think Phil’s comment above is dead on.”

      You mean the same @Phil who said, “That’s like saying, “their laws have a technical provision that says we should have been licensed physicians before giving out medical advice.”

      …and then diagnosed me with ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy “.

      Tell @Phil to go shit in his ” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocritical ” hat.

      You stated: “‘If I was a Elevation Group member, the question I’d be asking is “Would Dillard have promoted the alleged fraud if he wasn’t being paid commisions?’”.

      This is an interesting question that I have asked myself because he doesn’t get a commission for everything he’s introduced us to. My rationale is that Dillard was bringing a lot to the table as far as exposure for Pousa… and not the other way around… so perhaps he felt Pousa should pay him for the referral… and that he was legit.

      This hearkens back to what I’ve been suggesting about it being easy for people to find out which products Dillard actually sells, but none of you seem to know, or are playing extraordinarily dumb about.

      Anyway, it was clearly a mistake and as for you commenting on me saying, “I wonder if Dillard would be named as defendant if he had not taken commissions.”

      You’re right… I was really just thinking out loud, to be honest.

      Regardless, tell @Phil that the minor slap on the wrist Dillard is facing, via the consent order, is totally consistent with Dillard’s version of the story… and likely his cooperation too.

      Christ… at this point @Lanna has a better handle on this tale than any of you.

      1. @ReallyDroid?, “Minor slap on the wrist?” What horseshit.

        Dillard presented himself to the victims as being an expert, then defended himself as having made some “minor mistake.”

        That was NOT some “minor mistake.” Particularly for a self-proclaimed expert, that was one HUGE transgression.

        The operative term is: ILLEGAL. Look up the definition of ILLEGAL and learn something new.

        You are getting nuttier with each pile of horseshit you spew.

        1. @Bullshit Detector,

          “Particularly for a self-proclaimed expert.”

          Again… he’s not. Stop making shit up.

          1. @ReallyDroid?, More horseshit. Dillard used a position of authority and trust to funnel victims into a scam. He made money from those victims.

            Are you working for him on retainer? That’s exactly what it sounds like. You aren’t fooling anybody.

            1. @Bullshit Detector,

              You said: “Dillard used a position of authority and trust to funnel victims into a scam. He made money from those victims.”

              You’d have to prove that he knew it was a scam. The only one who has closed up shop is Pousa. Besides he made money from referral fees from Pousa, not the victims directly (he himself is a victim, as well) and the consent order says the CFTC has those funds now.

              Also, that’s only what he was paid by Pousa and not all that was owed by Pousa (that info came from the EVG updates on the matter).

              You said: “Are you working for him on retainer? That’s exactly what it sounds like. You aren’t fooling anybody.”

              Again, you’re another person trying discredit me, while simultaneously arguing this without any dealings of your own with Dillard whatsoever. No frame of reference other than your change purse of canned arguments that litter this site… which is rapidly depleting in this matter, I might add.

              I’ve agreed to show you guys receipts to products of his that I’ve purchased, as well as sales letter links. Problem is I can’t give you guys what you’re asking for, when none of you know what you’re asking for.

              I don’t think I’m being unreasonable.

            2. ReallyDroid? said, “You’d have to prove that he knew it was a scam.” Not really.

              So Dillard didn’t pretend to have any expertise whatsoever, he just said to the victims, “Hey, I don’t know nothin’, and I think you should click on this here link, and maybe or maybe not all your dreams will or will not come true.” Not even plausible.

              If your goal here is to help Dillard prepare to stand in front of 12 jurors, he’d probably be better off taking a plea.

              Tell him to call Perry Belcher. Maybe Belcher could teach him how to avoid the pokey and multiply his chins.

  29. @ReallyDroid?

    Anonymous comment above was me.

    Hit the “Submit Comment” button before I finished the post. Sorry about that, and my previous duplicate post.

    I’ll finish it now.
    ——————————————

    And who knows what will come out re: Mike’s involvement at the Pousa trial and at Friant’s when he’s finally run to ground?

    I do hope some state or federal agency with the authority to lay criminal charges will haul Mike, and anyone else who profited from illegally promoting the ProphetMax scheme, into court.

    Because if nothing else, this might bring to light the truth of Mike’s various statements and claims, e.g., “I’ve personally invested my own money into and documented have produced an ROI of more than 310% since 2008,”.

    Hopefully this process would end with at least Mike doing some time behind bars and being shown as the devious scammer I believe him to be but, as I’ve mentioned before, I won’t be holding my breath.

    Not that I think prison time would encourage folks like Mike to change their ways upon release, cause scammers gotta scam and, in their eyes, sheep need to be sheared.

    But at the very least the well publicized jailing of someone like Mike could have nothing but beneficial results, e.g., show the public the duplicitous games these folks play, demonstrate that web scamming isn’t some fun little game that can be played without potentially serious consequence, etc..

    I do hope some Elevation Group members get in touch with one of the agencies listed in Salty’s “Complaints” page and report Mike’s activities in illegally promoting ProphetMax to Elevation Group members.

    Here’s another page with links to various federal agencies.

    http://www.stopfraud.gov/report.html

    I’d also suggest that any Elevation Group member who is considering using whatever “tax advice” Mike is peddling to his paid members may want to run that “advice” past the IRS before applying it to their own tax affairs and … if the IRS response indicates the advice is unsound …
    point them to Mike, preferably to a page where he talks about his fabulous earnings.

    For anyone interested in the outcomes some have seen from applying dubious tax advice, here’s link.

    http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

    Another thing I’m curious about, and which might be answered during the course of a court case, is just how many “Fortune 500 CEO’s, Board of Directors, billionaires, and professional athletes” are, as Mike claims, Elevation Group members.

    Maybe I’m overestimating the intelligence of “Fortune 500 CEOs” however, I just don’t see them as dumb enough to sign up on a paid membership site offering “financial advice” from a guy whose first post on the site consists mainly of turgid prose lifted from Atlas Shrugged.

    http://theelevationgroup.com/is-money-destroying-the-world/

    To be honest, I can’t see how anyone out of their teens and possessing even a minimal amount of knowledge and life experience would sign up on a site run by a guy who claims that the above-mentioned “turgid prose” is “some of the most profound words I’ve ever experienced”.

    Not to mention that Ayn herself would probably despise scammy “make money online” internet marketer types and might be first in line to kick little Mikey’s butt.

    But, that’s just my opinion.

    I’ve never purchased any of Mike’s products and I have no reason to do so now as I’m not involved in “marketing”.

    So my opinion of Mike as a two bit IM scam artist is based solely on what I experienced and observed in my brushes with the scammy world of “make money online” IM and MLM world through the years and from a “if it walks like a duck …” perspective.

    To be fair though, I did try to find some reasonably objective opinions from users of his products who were not affiliates.

    This wasn’t easy given the many garbage pages put up by Mike’s “affiliates” … which google in its infinite wisdom has not sent to the de-indexed graveyard these deserve … though it was gratifying to see the Droid near the top of the results for “Mike Dillard scam”.

    The few non-affiliate reviews I did find mentioned that the information provided by Mike in his products might be okay for clueless noobs to IM but, not much else. And a few mentioned something along the lines of the same information being available free or more cheaply from other sources, e.g., the library, a bookstore, etc.

    I searched “Dillard” on the site below and found some threads discussing him and/or a product he was involved with.

    http://www.scam.com/search.php?searchid=7974635

    Did the same on this site:

    http://behindmlm.com/mlm/choosing-a-business/the-most-overlooked-factor-in-choosing-an-mlm-business/

    The only reference to “Dillard” I found on the page linked to above was in a comment from the person calling themselves (quite accurately, I thought) “What a load of rubbish”, who wrote “But I do know some guys make a lot of money in it, Mike Dillard for instance”.

    My reason for linking to that particular page is that the comments from “What a load of rubbish” seemed oddly familiar for some reason.

    Maybe because I noticed years ago that “make money online” web forum/blog discussions about IM/MLM “products” and opportunities” “guru’s” often follow the same general pattern, that being:

    1. Someone posts a topic about product/program “X” (topic could include a “is this a scam” question.
    2. OP returns to say they’ve bought product or joined program and that it (and maybe the person who created product/program) is great.
    3. Other (often first post members) pop in to say agree that product/program is great.

    If the initial post is “negative” or at some point a commenter questions the value/legality of the program, the folks mentioned at 2. and 3. above will pop in to dispute the “negative” comment through the use of, in most cases, ad hominems directed at the commenter and/or “distractions” to get the discussion of course.

    4. If the thread concerns a “product”, it will eventually just fade away.
    If the thread concerns a pyramid or ponzi scheme, then:
    5. Everything between 1. and 4. will continue until the inevitable “I didn’t get my payment” post appears.
    6. Various commenters will jump in to defend the program and/or program owner and either they or the program owner will allude to some issue in the owner’s life, e.g., “dog died”, “been informed I have a terrible condition” (often cancer), “partner I trusted stole BD and/or program funds”, etc. and assure “doubters” that things will soon get back on track.
    Cue expressions of sympathy and support from, at least, the folks pumping the scheme
    8. Program participants get “not found” message for program page and scheme collapses and previous supporters, and likely owner, disappear.

    OR a variation where the owner blames other people for the program collapse and talks about how bad they feel for members who lost money and their “lessons learned” … which will be invaluable in assuring the stability of the new program they intend to start to “repay” the members who kept the faith after the previous program collapsed.

    7. Members who lost money may bitch and moan for awhile, then thread/post fades away.

    For some reason, Mike’s “ProphetMax Fraud case” post reminded me of the process mentioned above.

    Same with your posts.

    You wrote “Regardless, tell @Phil that the minor slap on the wrist Dillard is facing, via the consent order, is totally consistent with Dillard’s version of the story… and likely his cooperation too.”

    Re: “slap on the wrist”, you mentioned above that you didn’t know the amount involved in the “disgorgement”, civil penalty” and “interest” payments mentioned in the consent order … and neither do I.

    Without knowledge of these amounts, I not sure whether at this point it’s safe to characterize the CFTC actions as a “slap on the wrist” … unless you consider anything other than jail time to be just a “slap on the wrist”.

    Regardless, the CFTC action being, in your eyes at least, a “slap on the wrist” is irrelevant (though I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the money put toward paying the above-mentioned amounts will largely come from Elevation Group membership fees and if this is the case, it would indeed be a very light “slap on the wrist” for Mike.).

    My view of the focus of this site is that it exposes various so-called internet marketers and their supporters as the dishonest scam artists … or wilfully deluded or stupid people … that they are.

    Mike falls into this category.

    This post discusses … with a somewhat different spin than Mike’s … the fact that he has admitted to breaking the law in respect of his promotional activities for ProphetMax to paid members of the Elevation Group which he controls.

    If people think that’s okay and choose to invest their money in any product or program that Mike may peddle, that’s their business.

    For “noobs” and other folks who may be wondering if they want give their credit card number to Mike, or anyone else, for a product or program he’s flogging, the information in Salty’s post is just another factor they may want to consider in their, hopefully non-emotional, decision.

    At best, your participation in this thread can be summed up as you’ve said you’re satisfied with the products you’ve purchased from Mike and you believe that people who haven’t bought his products do not have a right to judge him or his actions regardless of whatever experience and knowledge they have of Mike’s activities or the IM/MLM world in general have lead them to characterize him as a two bit web hustler or scammer.

    And that’s it, beyond cherry picking various statements other commenters have made to make what might seem to you to be a “point”.

    On the other side, we have Mike’s admission that he broke the law … or missed, as he’d put it, a technicality … which obviously does nothing to change the opinion of those who previously and for whatever reason had concluded he was a scammer.

    And re: that technicality:

    http://www.pli.edu/product_files/booksamples/5047_sample2.pdf

    I don’t really agree with your earlier contention that “Salty Droid is really a plant by the syndicate to preempt the whiny babies, round em up and prevent them from becoming serial refunders.”

    To my mind, the IM noobs who would benefit most from this site aren’t the people who find it. Even if they did, many might still go off and waste their money anyway as “you can’t make money online” probably isn’t the message some noobs want or are willing to hear.

    I’d expect the people who do come across this site have already experienced the IM world and come to question the scammy nature of what they’ve seen.

    And these folks aren’t likely to become the “serial refunders” you mention.

    Obviously there’s no data in this regard that would support your viewpoint or mine, so it just comes down to opinion.

    As concerns your comment “Christ… at this point @Lanna has a better handle on this tale than any of you.”, I’ll just point out that as shown in your comments above, you couldn’t find Mike’s signature in the Consent Order document or see where he admitted to breaking the law until this was explained to you and then you had, according to you, no idea what the document might mean for Mike and Elevation until this was also explained.

    Based on your comments to date, your only “handle” on this matter has come right from Mike’s “ProphetMax Fraud Case” post and your acceptance of his “spin”.

    So it seems odd that you’d be making snarky remarks concerning anyone else’ “handle” on this sorry “tale”.

    Or it would seem odd if I thought any of your comments had been made for the purpose of generating a good faith discussion.

    However I don’t, and I can’t see how anyone who has spent any amount of time on web forums or blogs … particularly those were IM marketers and their stooges/affiliates play the little games I mentioned above … could.

    You wrote “@Anonymous, you said: “I think Phil’s comment above is dead on.”

    You mean the same @Phil who said, “That’s like saying, “their laws have a technical provision that says we should have been licensed physicians before giving out medical advice.”

    …and then diagnosed me with ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy “.

    Tell @Phil to go shit in his ” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocritical ” hat.”

    You’ve really been reaching in your last few posts, which should be telling to anyone following this discussion.

    To my mind … and I’m sure most sane people would agree … Phil is not acting in the capacity of a supposedly licensed physician in offering his personal and freely given opinion that someone would have to be a conscienceless psychopath to continue trying to defend Mike in this situation.

    Elevation and Mike were, as per the CFTC Consent Order he signed, acting in, respectively, the roles of Introducing Broker and Associated Person of the Elevation Group in the promotion of ProphetMax to Elevation Group members without following the legal requirements that might allow them to do so … and making a profit from both sides while doing so.

    If you can’t see the distinction there well, what can I say?

    As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I don’t see an individual’s greed, ignorance,stupidity or wishful thinking as a justification to defraud them … and neither does any western legal system that I’m aware of.

    That being said, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for members of programs like GIN, the Elevation Group or any other scheme that, based on information I’ve read on the site of each, I feel cater largely to the tin foil hat crowd.

    I have much more sympathy for the OP in this thread:

    http://www.betternetworker.com/forums/main-mlm-discussion-f2/feeling-overwhelmed-t30632.html

    At least the other commenters were nice, rather than giving her the old “it’s your fault, not the program’s” type line I’ve seen quite often in the past on this type of forum.

    Though rather than the “unicorn” advice she received, I would have provided these:

    http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/businessopprule/522418-12684.pdf

    http://mlm-thetruth.com/evaluating-mlms/5step-eval

    If nothing else, this information would show her why it isn’t necessarily her fault, or a result of “not working hard enough”, “feeling entitled”, etc., if she doesn’t find success in the MLM world.

    Would also help her to avoid illegal pyramid schemes disguised a “network marketing” companies.

  30. @Random Stuff,

    You said: “An honest person would have said “Fake reviews are often done by people promoting.”
    Hung by your own petard.”

    …You guys have really run out of talking points.

    People don’t write a good review for something they thought totally sucked. At least not a believable one. Hell they probably don’t even write one at all. They certainly don’t double down and promote it.

    They probably just refund, like they should. Which btw… you don’t get to keep referral fees when people refund, so why promote a total turd? I wouldn’t. Duh…

    You said: “By the way – reviews, in the world of honest people, are done by people giving an honest opinion, and who are not in it for the money. Likewise for testimonials in the world of honest people.”

    I’ve never heard of someone getting paid for a testimonial (except for perhaps sports figures, but they don’t count here, do they…) They are usually just given by happy customers. Go make some customers happy and you’ll see what I mean.

    Who says honest people don’t write reviews about something they would promote? You wouldn’t promote something you thought was really great? If you thought something was really great, would you write a dishonest review?

    If so, then it sounds to me like you might have more scam going on in your mind than the people you try to vilify. FTW…

    I will pose a question to you: If every time you gave your honest opinion of a movie and a friend went to see it, what if the movie studio offered you a referral fee? Would you turn it down? Would it be dishonest to accept it? The problem is the movies don’t offer a referral fee, instead they just take your friend’s business without so much as a thank you.

    You might still tell people how great movies are, but you certainly won’t go as far as to write a review about it.

    In MOST cases, reviews are promotional. Somebody’s getting paid somewhere.

    I would think that you would still write an honest review, regardless, or none at all. I know I would.

    You asked for: “the link to the sales letter of the most marvellous product that you have purchased and benefited from so much.

    Also – some evidence on how you benefited… or provide some real before and after stats. Go on – enough of the flimflam. Even if anonymous – if true – they might resonante as reasonable.”

    You’re putting the cart before the horse. You haven’t even established that you actually know anything about Dillard or his products. I could tell you what they are, but I won’t because at this point I think you’re just lazy.

    I’ve offered receipts and links to sales letters, but you have not asked for one specific product let alone more than one of the several I’ve purchased… and now you want additional info on top of that too?

    Can we agree at this point that the only knowledge/information you have on Dillard was gleaned from this very website and that you’re likely talking out of your ass with regard to him in particular?

    You guys are a bossy bunch of know-nothings… geez.

    Tell you what. List 3 of the many products Dillard has sold. Chances are you’ll get a hit on one I’ve bought. EVG is a gimme, so now you just need 2.

    Good luck.

  31. @Rico Billy

    You said: “So Dillard didn’t pretend to have any expertise whatsoever, he just said to the victims, “Hey, I don’t know nothin’, and I think you should click on this here link, and maybe or maybe not all your dreams will or will not come true.” Not even plausible.”

    You clearly have no understanding of what EVG is. No, he did not purport to have any expertise in any of the investment opportunities he was exploring.

    In fact at times he was quite forthcoming about his lack of any expertise.

    He certainly never mentioned anything about “dreams coming true” lol!

    Where do you guys get this shit? Where does this site find you guys?

    1. @ReallyDroid?, Did Dillard simply place an inoccuous link somewhere, preceded by text that said, “Don’t click this?” Then, as if by magic, all those victims just started throwing their money into that scam, while Dillard protested, “I know nothing! I know nothing!”

      You are as ridiculous as Dillard is unbelievable.

      1. @Billy Rico,

        Talk about ridiculous… Like I said, you clearly have no understanding of what EVG is. But I’ll play… point me to where he claimed to be an expert.

  32. @Lanna

    “but the order forbids Dillard and Elevation Group from participating in a lot of activities. I think it’s gonna be tough for Elevation Group to continue without violating those agreements.”

    I believe it forbids him explicitly from promoting things that require license without having the license. For instance, when he interviews HIS financial planner, the financial planner is licensed to give financial advice. Like I mentioned, none of the other vehicles/strategies require license or fall under CFTC regulations. With the forex thing, Dillard seemed very clear that he was only exploring it because he had the rest of his strategy in place. His exact words were his “Vegas money”.

    I personally don’t have “Vegas money”. I watched the Pousa webinars to see what he was looking into, but I was decidedly not going near it. Especially not the $10,000 managed accounts.

    “Do you think it’s typical for Dillard to get a 30% cut from the experts he introduces to his subscribers?”

    I think maybe one or two others, but typically not. He’s pretty forthcoming about who is paying him a commission or not.

    “Have the other videos introduced investments that aren’t open to retail investors?”

    No… at least not as I understand them. Things like insurance policies may or may not be available in certain countries, or they may just be a bit different, but no. If you think the strategy is in line with your goal and you have the resources, it’s there if you want to utilize it, for the most part.

    The only thing that clearly varies for some folks would be tax strategy type stuff. That’s obviously going to be different based on your country’s tax code.

    “I’ve averaged a 77% return per year since 2008 without buying a single stock, and countless EVG Members have taken back control of their financial destiny,” without showing typical results is a violation of those 2009 rules”

    I’m not sure the 2009 FTC rules apply here. His is an actual case study and not a testimonial. When he says, “countless EVG Members have taken back control of their financial destiny…”, who’s to dispute that they have actually taken control (although I’m sure they can be counted :p )?

    I certainly feel more in control… my savings are no longer being inflated away. I’m positioned for deflation as well.

    EVG doesn’t promise a result (nobody can really predict the future), only access to resources and experts who can take what we’re seeing happen around us and put it into a digestible context.

    Pousa on the other hand, promised results and also promised a certain level of risk would not be exceeded. Clearly it was exceeded and some people paid dearly for it.

    Still working on those receipts for you…

  33. @Lanna, @Random Stuff, @Bullshit Detector, @Wyrd, @non-Dillard customers

    Okay, since Lanna did the research to actually name some Dillard products, here are my receipts as promised, as well as a brief example of it’s impact, as requested. Forgive me if this gets a little long…

    Magnetic Sponsoring – (No receipt, ordered from an old email account that I deleted. May 2007)

    I originally was not interested in this because of its focus on Network Marketing, which is not an industry I do business in. A friend of mine who does recommended it after I explained to him what I was trying to do with my business. Glad I bought it too. Here’s why:

    Despite being a network marketing info product, it was easy for me to remove network marketing and insert my industry into the teaching, as a large part of the subject matter is on generating customer leads. This was when I was first transitioning my biz to engage in ecommerce.

    I read this side-by-side with another course from a different author and while the other course was really great, Dillard explained a certain business concept that was dead-on with what I was trying to do and explained it in a way that the other guy couldn’t quite seem to nail down properly.

    Essentially, after implementing Dillard’s strategy, I gained a huge competetive advantage in my market because I was able to offset my advertising costs by offering prospects a low-cost, consultative information product before they actually hire my services.

    This not only allows my potential customers to get themselves up to speed before hiring an expensive service like mine, or my competitors, but it also generally helps save them a lot of time by letting them know what they’ll need to have in order before they hire a service. In a lot of cases, it wins me their business and essentially reduces my advertising costs to zero (because the sale of the inexpensive info product gets me paid by the lead, not just if they hire my service. Competitors can’t hang with that). It’s also a decent thing to do because in some cases folks may not even need my services.

    On a side note: If you want to learn about Dillard, this is essentially his playbook for the way he does business and creates products to generate leads. Not only is he an astute business man, but a moral one… and is probably a really good dude.

    The reason I say that is because the approach he takes in this particular course is one much like Salty Droid, where he kinda blows the lid off of some of the nonsense people are taught in Network Marketing (harass everyone you know to look at your bizop, etc…) by pointing out the absurdity in approaching any business that way. He also explains that all the people you hear about earning giant mega checks in their first month is because they already had a huge sphere of influence from their previous experience in the biz and bring them along to any opportunity they join (ie. exposing the scam of it all).

    Whether or not you personally feel that MLM is a legitimate business model is irrelevant, because it is. The problems arise when companies structure their pay plan in a way that causes people to exhibit outrageous behavior, in the name of making a buck.

    It’s also worth mentioning that this is the only product where Dillard claims to be an expert on the subject matter and I’m inclined to agree that he is.

    Anyways, I still find myself reading through this one occasionally.

    MLM Traffic Formula –
    http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s546/pepperyjawa/sdrecshot2_zps3beef05c.jpg

    This was a bit pricey and I bought it well before the release of 2.0. Essentially this was useful to me as a complete and total non-techy noob back in 2008. Everything outlined in this course was how I started to set up my online infrastructure and was very satisfied with the content. My first employee went through this with me so that he could follow it and set up the traffic strategies covered (in great detail I might add). I’ll never forget the confusion when I handed him something with MLM in the title. I told him to just fill in the blanks and follow it.

    Some of this stuff is quite commonly known today, but was not back in 2008. I couldn’t even tell you what’s in the 2.0 version of it.

    Building on A Budget –
    http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s546/pepperyjawa/sdrecshot1_zpscb91d844.jpg

    Bought this as a cross-sell with MLM traffic Formula. This just basically outlines some free or really cheap strategies for generating more leads. I still take advantage of some of these traffic sources and get fairly consistent results, as far as traffic goes. Paid ads still work better IMO, but all in all this is great for people who are starting a business in their part-time. Short and sweet, but worth the price, for sure.

    It may not seem like much… and I certainly make a modest living in my business, but These 3 courses were priceless and allowed me to finally quit my job as a landscaping foreman, after 13 years of working 50+ hours a week.

    I also purchased Copywriters Guild, which is not Dillard, but it’s released on the MS brand.

    So are we now satisfied that I am in fact a Dillard customer?

    1. @ReallyDroid?,

      I am satisfied that you are in fact a Dillard customer. However, I still think Dillard’s products are scams.

      If you don’t want to think that you were scammed, that’s fine. If you think it was worth paying a premium to have the information in MLM Traffic Formula condensed or made actionable for you, that’s fine. But I believe Dillard’s products – MLM Traffic Formula in particular – are scams because they take information you could get from true experts for free or for the cost of a book, dumb it down, and resell it for much more than it’s worth – usually by claiming to have secret or time-sensitive information, creating a fear of missing out that causes people to buy the product without comparing the it to competitors or doing any kind of cost-benefit analysis.

      I’m basing that belief on a couple things. First, I went over here to see what’s inside MLM Traffic
      Formula, and – as a marketing professional – I know tons of places to find that info for free – or the classic book to read. For instance, Module 4’s Webinar 1, “Scientific Marketing Simplified,” sounds like Mikey’s just ripping off poor old Claude C. Hopkins’ “Scientific Advertising.”

      Second, I’ve heard the audio documenting the Syndicate’s price-gouging and price-fixing. (It starts around 1:18.) Salty hasn’t tagged Dillard as part of the Syndicate per se, but here’s a photo showing he’s in the same mastermind group as people who have been tagged as Syndicate members: convicted felon Perry Belcher, Ryan Deiss and Yanik Silver. Check it out.

      1. @Lanna,

        you said, “I am satisfied that you are in fact a Dillard customer. However, I still think Dillard’s products are scams.”

        Again, you’re not a customer, so this is merely an opinion with clear bias toward scams.

        You said, “If you don’t want to think that you were scammed, that’s fine. If you think it was worth paying a premium to have the information in MLM Traffic Formula condensed or made actionable for you, that’s fine. But I believe Dillard’s products – MLM Traffic Formula in particular – are scams because they take information you could get from true experts for free or for the cost of a book, dumb it down, and resell it for much more than it’s worth”

        This is wholly inaccurate. This product was expanded, not condensed. Were talking about 10+ hours worth of actionable content, that offers input from 2 experts, with some commentary from Dillard, who may not be an expert on traffic, but is an expert on organically growing businesses and copywriting.

        I can only assume that the site you linked to is a credible source, otherwise I imagine you would not have linked it, but here’s what’s also on that site about the course:

        Editors overall rating: 4 out of 5
        User overall rating: 3.5 out of 5
        ease of use: 3.5 out of 5
        Value for Money: 4.5 out of 5 (does this sound like people feel they were scammed to you?)

        A quote from their “Verdict”, “And the couple of people who decided to return the course did get a prompt refund of the price paid, which is a good sign of an honest marketer.”

        I did find it funny that there at the bottom of the page was a banner ad for Elevation Group. Perhaps you should have a chat with them and express your deep concerns, you know, with Dillard being a big scammer and all.

        Dillard may be rehashing Hopkins and others in the one module, but I’m quite sure Hopkins didn’t push out a full-fledged traffic strategy with his initial writing, nor does he offer the perspective of 2.5 experts, so I’m failing to see your point.

        It’s also worth noting that the site you linked to has a “Top Rated Products” section in the sidebar and there at the top… Magnetic Sponsoring 4.5 out of 5.

        The two comment responses to that review also gave the course 4 out of 5 and 5 out of 5 respectively with regard to “Value for Money”, like I did.

        Also, I just explained to you that Dillard’s work was instrumental in me being able to make a full-time living with my business. Even if I’m not earning more than I was at my job, which I am, you can’t argue that working 20 hours a week beats the hell out of 50+… and I have the work of Dillard and others (including my own) to thank for it.

        For someone who is a marketing professional, I’m astounded that you would let hubris get in the way of recognizing and acknowledging accomplishment when you see it. That’s called being a hater.

        I don’t mean to suggest that some folks weren’t majorly ripped off by Pousa, they definitely were. But Dillard doesn’t get to be where he is by not doing good business along the way. If he was scamming people left and right, like the folks here and yourself seem to claim (without any real experience to speak of), he’d have been neck deep in the shit long before Salty Droid was even a blip on the web.

        He and his products aren’t exactly low-profile stuff, found only in the dark corners of the web.

        1. @ReallyDroid?,

          Don’t misrepresent
          @ReallyDroid? wrote:

          Again, you’re not a customer, so this is merely an opinion with clear bias toward scams.

          Sure, @Lanna has an opinion. So do you. Do not try to handwave away that opinion just because you don’t like it. To insist that a person simply must buy a thing to be able to have an informed opinion of it is untrue. @Lanna went to a website to get a sense for what was contained in MLM Traffic Formula, and she gave her opinion based on that.

          I’ve also noticed that when you respond, you sort of just totally ignore certain points the other person makes.

          For example, @Lanna brings up price fixing and Mike Dillard’s likely affiliation with those that engage in such practices
          @Lanna wrote:

          Second, I’ve heard the audio documenting the Syndicate’s price-gouging and price-fixing. (It starts around 1:18.) Salty hasn’t tagged Dillard as part of the Syndicate per se, but here’s a photo showing he’s in the same mastermind group as people who have been tagged as Syndicate members: convicted felon Perry Belcher, Ryan Deiss and Yanik Silver. Check it out.

          And your response was … silence

          But perhaps you don’t find price fixing important. Maybe you think price fixing is a good marketing tactic?

          1. @Wyrd,

            Because unlike you guys, I’m not inclined to speak on that which I’m not informed about. Therefore I can’t comment on which mastermind groups Dillard likes to spend his money on, or who else is doing the same. I have no input or knowledge about price fixing. The price is the price… I don’t haggle over price.

            And let’s not get confused here. Lanna is entitled to an opinion. I don’t have any disillusions about winning an argument here.

            The point is that my argument is based on EXPERIENCE with the person in question, not on assumptions based on unrelated cases and uninformed bias.

            I’m simply establishing on record, for those who do visit this site in search of “Confirmation Bias”, per @Wyrd, that they not only get your suggestions of what’s really going on, but they also hear from someone who did pony up the cash and has an actual, not hypothetical, inside look at the matter in question.

            Now that I’ve given you all the receipts, you can’t use the argument that I’m not a Dillard customer, which leaves you guys in the uncomfortable and, per @Wyrd scammy situation of “simultaneously holding 2 contradictory positions” of being an “informed” non-customer, purporting to be an expert on Dillard, when clearly you guys are anything but.

            Care to respond to that?

          2. @Wyrd,

            Because unlike you guys, I’m not inclined to speak on that which I’m not informed about. Therefore I can’t comment on which mastermind groups Dillard likes to spend his money on, or who else is doing the same. I have no input or knowledge about price fixing. The price is the price… I don’t haggle over price.

            And let’s not get confused here. Lanna is entitled to an opinion. I don’t have any disillusions about winning an argument here.

            The point is that my argument is based on EXPERIENCE with the person in question, not on assumptions based on unrelated cases and uninformed bias.

            I’m simply establishing on record, for those who do visit this site in search of “Confirmation Bias”, per @Wyrd, that they not only get your suggestions of what’s really going on, but they also hear from someone who did pony up the cash and has an actual, not hypothetical, inside look at the matter in question.

            Now that I’ve given you all the receipts, you can’t use the argument that I’m not a Dillard customer, which leaves you guys in the uncomfortable and, per @Wyrd scammy situation of “simultaneously holding 2 contradictory positions” of being an “informed” non-customer, purporting to be an expert on Dillard, when clearly you guys are anything but.

            Care to respond to that?

            1. @ReallyDroid?,

              Perhaps the fundamental difference in points of view here is that your whole argument is that Dillard is most definitely not a scammer–that Dillard can’t possibly be a scammer.

              But everyone else on this site takes up a position that Dillard certainly is a scammer. Or–failing that, that he gives every appearance of being a scammer.

              But here is where the breakdown occurs. Because in order for you to be able to even attempt to see this point of view, you’d have to be willing to actually look and read about the many, many folks profiled on this site.

              But as soon as this is brought up, you throw up your hands saying “hey! I’m no expert on that!”

              See, for my part, I might not have purchased Dillard’s products. But I have been on the wrong side (i.e. inside) of cult-like sales. I really do know what that feels like. And, as for Salty Droid? He may not be a Dillard customer, but he is most definitely an expert on online scams, particularly the extra clever kind where some of those that have been scammed do not realize that they have been scammed and will, in fact, defend the scammer against all attacks.

              Your initial thought was some weird idea that we were all chasing charge backs. I wonder
              1) how did that idea form and
              2) do you still think that’s what’s going on here?

  34. Wyrd said: “Your initial thought was some weird idea that we were all chasing charge backs”

    No that wasn’t my initial thought. My initial thought was that Droid was breaking a story that he didn’t actually break.

    “1) how did that idea form and”

    After reading some of the commentary and the obvious bias, I had the fun idea that perhaps Salty Droid does actually do these marketers a favor, because confirmation bias will certainly keep people who shouldn’t buy these products from buying them.

    “2) do you still think that’s what’s going on here?”

    It’s plausible.

    My issue isn’t necessarily with Salty either… it’s the commentary that I find laughable at times. Especially when folks hold positions they can’t possibly defend without pulling a lateral example, that doesn’t quite fit.

    It’s one thing to have an opinion… I respect people’s right to an opinion. I will acknowledge the opinion, but I don’t have to respect the opinion, especially when I’m holding cards that directly contradict that opinion.

    Not saying there isn’t anything to some of the other stories on this site, but you haven’t seen me comment on any of them either. Only this one because I’ve benefited greatly from Dillard’s work and feel that voicing that is worth the brow-beat. Primarily because there’s a world of people out there who like to tell entrepreneurial types that they can’t accomplish what they’re trying to do and they all seem to run in the same crowd and hold the same biased belief.

    If I would have found this site on my journey, I might have given in and would probably still be working like a slave, saying to my severely disabled daughter, “sorry, daddy has no time for you because I have to pay the bills.”

    Now we have an almost identical lifestyle, the differencing being that I have twice the time to do important things, that don’t involve money, that I “can’t make online”.

    Salty’s probably an expert on the law school scam… The one where they tell you they have 80% post-graduate employment, but leave out the part about it being the night shift at Payless Shoes, rather than practicing law.

    1. @ReallyDroid? ::

      Okay … you’re done here. Your endlessly repeating empty chatter is bogging down the comments on this post.

      I’m deleting anything else you say unless:

      a) you show us the websites that Dillard’s worthless fucking products have helped you build

      or

      b) you reveal your identity to me privately so that I can confirm your success for myself, and verify that you’ve never been an affiliate for Dillard {which you were legally obligated to disclose before you started shilling}

      Your sites aren’t successful … you are a liar. And you’re like the most boring troll ever! Go away boring!

  35. In the consent order, Mike Dillard admitted to the CFTC that he didn’t have the proper licensing to be selling investments and promised he wouldn’t do it again.

    Today, February 2, 2013, he’s got display ads running for The Elevation Group with this copy:

    Your 401K Is Killing Your Retirement. This rogue millionaire shows you why.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/24320537@N06/8440173092/

    The ad links to a fear-porn investment orgy.

    Rare Webinar Exposes The One Investment The Top 1%
 Are Betting On During The Coming Economic Collapse…

    That sounds a lot like selling an investment to me.

      1. @Random stuff,

        I can’t figure out if I’ve seen that webinar before or if it’s just the exact same pitch Jessie Conners gave us about real estate. The economy is shit! It’s time to buy!

        1. @Lanna, yup. Probably pulling together a patchwork of facts makes people vulnerable to thinking that the fictional piece – i.e. the sell – has some validity.

          Mix it up with some happy clappy feel good stuff, and they have a sale.

          The art of talking nonsense, and making it sound like it makes sense. Plus – the tendency of people to think charitably, if people are *friendly* – inclines them to give these charlatans a chance, after all ‘what have I got to lose’.

          Tony Robbin’s Ted talk had so many fawning followers commenting favourably – yet the actual text does not survive any level of rational scrutiny.

          http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_robbins_asks_why_we_do_what_we_do.html

          I guess the problem is *received wisdom* – generated by crass news channels, Oprah and her ilk, and legions of affiliates… lobotomising peoples’ ability to think critically with regard to *gurus*, and to see past the speil.

  36. I read a while back Dillard’s wife divorced him last year – she must have some sense to remove herself from the whole situation.

  37. Thank you for exposing this man. How is he still operating? Why is he not in PRISON! I wish more people knew. He spends every waking minute doing shameless self promotion. It’s all lies. To take him down- someone would need to cancel out his marketing, which in a sick, sociopathic way, other people pay him to do.
    I knew him personally and watched him become this terrible person. So sad. I’ll never forget introducing him to my father, who simply looked at me and said “no”. Please continue to expose him. If anyone is reading this with money, power and morals- protect the public from this monster.

  38. And his wife left him because he’s gay. Not that its a bad thing, just a bad thing to lie to your wife about.

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