SaltyDroid Interview Requests

... two fake jasons

This is totally happening  … here’s the one I’m showing you.

SUBJECT: Jason Jones Interview Invitation on The Holistic Survival Show

Dear Jason,

After recently becoming familiar with The Salty Droid, Jason Hartman, host of the highly rated Creating Wealth Show and its affiliate show, The Holistic Survival Show, would like to conduct a brief 20-30 minute interview with you (via phone or Skype) regarding your expertise in the field. We, at The Holistic Survival Show offer the critical life skills to protect the people, places, and profits you care about in uncertain times. We believe your knowledge is ideal for one of our upcoming episodes and will provide you with a good promotional opportunity.

Due to the popularity of Jason Hartman’s original radio program, The Creating Wealth Show, we have decided to leverage this success and cover the sought-after subjects many of our audience members are requesting that we just cannot cover in our already jam-packed schedule. As a result, The Holistic Survival Show is an affiliate show of Jason Hartman’s original program, which has a global audience with listeners in 26 countries. Visit www.JasonHartman.com/radioshows or search “Jason Hartman” at the iTunes store for details. His show has been tracked with over 300,000 downloads, and is regularly ranked in the Top 10 on iTunes charts. Tackling the forward-thinking topics of our world’s ambiguous future, The Holistic Survival Show will inform its listeners with first-hand news and information from leading experts like you. Please visit this show’s website at www.HolisticSurvival.com.

Jason Hartman will be conducting the interview personally. Jason is President of Platinum Properties Investor Network located in Orange County, California and Scottsdale, Arizona. In addition to his Creating Wealth Show and Holistic Survival Show, Jason Hartman is the “go-to economic expert” commentator on KABC 790AM, the #2 Los Angeles talk radio station.

We believe the interview will be well worth your time, offering a promotional opportunity to listeners in America and several countries worldwide. In addition, guest experts have the opportunity to showcase additional materials (sample chapters, audio, video, etc.) on the members only section of our website for added exposure. There is no charge for anything; our business model is based on the listener / consumer rather than the guests.

Recent guests of the show include famous names like:

  • Matthew Stein — Current Huffington Post columnist and author When Technology Fails
  • John Assaraf — One of the experts featured in the hit film and book The Secret
  • Harry Dent — Best-selling author and economic forecasting guru
  • Cody Lundin — Urban preparedness expert and author of When All Hell Breaks Loose
  • Pat Buchanan — Three-time presidential advisor and media journalist
  • Peter Schiff — Expert economist and well-known author of Crash Proof
  • Ellen Brown — Economic writer and author of Web of Debt
  • G. Edward Griffin –Documentary film producer and author with many successful titles to his credit, including The Creature from Jekyll Island, and many others

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have regarding the interview. Please feel free to contact me, Kimberly Spencer Kline, directly at (949) 555-0054 or via email at guests@HartmanMedia.com. We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sincerely,

Kim Spencer Kline
Public Relations, The Hartman Media Company

SaltyDroid

Dear Kim,

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

Sincerely,

SD

Kim Spencer Kline

Dear SD,

This isn’t a scam. Jason is a legitimate real estate investor and enjoys educating, the main purpose of his podcasts. He does interviews with guest experts on many subjects. The Holistic Survival Show covers a wide range of topics. He’s not trying to sell you anything; he’s simply asking for an interview regarding the topics you address on your blog. But if you aren’t interested, no problem. Thanks for your time.

Kim

SaltyDroid

So what’s John Assaraf an expert on Kim?

Kim Spencer Kline

I understand the point you’re making. I enjoyed a couple of the blogs you wrote. Have a good one! :)

SaltyDroid

No Kim.

You’ve disturbed my peace and tranquility … so now I want an answer.

What is John Assaraf an expert on?

Kim Spencer Kline

Since I have not ever read The Secret and I do not use John Assaraf’s products, the only thing I can tell you about him is that he talks about facing fear instead of allowing it to control your life. Just like every other expert or guru out there, his methods work for some, but not for all.

And while I would love to chat more with you, I have to do it on my own time rather than work time. You are only one of many people I have to talk to today.

SaltyDroid

So you put people on as experts when you have no idea who or what they are?

You hold yourselves out to be experts on experts when you know nothing … then you and your fake experts sell things to “customers” based on that illusion?

That is a scam.

The Secret led to some very nice people dying … and millions and millions of dollars worth of destructive pillage.

You are part of the problem.

I’m posting this because it makes me laugh :: so if you’d like to say anything for the world now is your chance … think of it as “a good promotional opportunity.”

>> bleep bloop

350 thoughts on “SaltyDroid Interview Requests”

  1. LMAO SD.

    Three Narcissists…

    from wikipedia: “Although most individuals have some narcissistic traits, high levels of narcissism can manifest themselves in a pathological form as narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), whereby the patient overestimates his or her abilities and has an excessive need for admiration and affirmation. NPD is a condition defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders version 4”

    Assaraf is a prick. Mentored by Proctor. Proctor also mentored Ray.. Such a glorious lineage.

    The real question is, which one of them has the biggest ego?

    It’s a tough one to judge. Ray pretty much thought he was god, so cool, so suave.. Hope he has soap on a rope. That God complex didn’t work out so well for him and unfortunately, killed some folks.. (patient overestimates his or her abilities)

    Assaraf hasn’t killed anyone yet but if you look up cocky prick in the dictionary, there is a picture of him. Oh, and really boring too…

    Proctor is a Narcissist. (has an excessive need for admiration and affirmation) He probably gets it from being a high school drop out, a former alcoholic and really fucking stupid. Always has a harem of younger gals around to stroke his insecure ego.

    What do you think? Who is the biggest Douche? It’s pretty tough to judge.. I’m gonna go with Proctor as biggest D Bag. He is after all, the mentor of Ray.

    1. @omg dats funny shit ::

      I can tell you from too much sad experience that “he hasn’t killed anyone” is usually wrong if you count suicide and sadness-cide {aka rapid and inexplicably failing heath} … and all the death :: horror :: and destruction that follow people who find themselves in manipulative fraud altered states.

      Things which :: obviously … must be counted.

      It’s very dangerous to fuck with people’s minds :: “industry of death” would be closer to accurate than “Internet Marketing” or “Self Help.” Strip people of their values :: and their monies … and you leave nothing but hopeless and unpredictable husks … the walking dead.

      1. @SD,

        It’s very dangerous to fuck with people’s minds :: “industry of death” would be closer to accurate than “Internet Marketing” or “Self Help.” Strip people of their values :: and their monies … and you leave nothing but hopeless and unpredictable husks … the walking dead.

        You’ve really got a way with words.

        Also… you’re completely right.

        Maybe that’s why I keep coming back here. (The “it’s very dangerous to fuck with people’s minds” part. Yeah, I think that’s it.)

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @SD,

          P.S.

          wait, I forgot about the jokes/humor part. Those are important as well, as you have also pointed out in the past.

          It would all get very overwhelming very quickly without them.

          So, thanks for that. :-)

  2. That’s extremely funny.

    So, John Assaraf is an expert in how other people should face their fear while they pay him, therefore Holistic Survival is not a scam.

    The name “Holistic Survival” also demonstrates a basic marketing principle in the industry – promise everything while triggering fear. (And the idea reminds me of Douglas Adams’ old book, Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency, except this is funnier and more ridiculous.)

    ….And the whole facade was brought crashing down with one simple question — that simple question that everyone in the industry knows NEVER to ask each other.

    ====

    @omg dats funny shit, — and Assaraf also wrote a letter to the judge, supporting James Arthur Death Ray.


  3. “I enjoyed a couple of the blogs you wrote.”

    It’s good she did her A+ homework by reading a couple of the entire blogs you made.

    1. @Jack,

      That’s what due diligence looks like in the industry. Just don’t spoil it by asking exactly which of the “blogs” she enjoyed.

  4. That was priceless. I laughed until it hurt, and then even my hurt starting laughing.

    But…now, you won’t get “the opportunity to showcase additional materials (sample chapters, audio, video, etc.) on the members only section of our website for added exposure.”

    Of course, you don’t have “sample chapters, audio, video, etc.,” but since when has that ever stopped anybody? Just think, if a dimwit hustler like Irwin Frank Kern can crap out a product from his larcenous bowels in “4 minutes,” you could do it from your law-abiding bowels instantaneously.

    How about an ebook that teaches people how to never buy ebooks? It could be a best seller, and just think of all the sequels.

    Then there’s always “Salty Droid’s Time-Saving Scammer Response Templates.” You could give this one away for free as a lead gen:

    Dear Kim,

    You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

    Sincerely,

    SD

    1. @Sigh,
      Did you read the list of speakers on this site that James has shared the stage with?
      Its like a Who’s Who of Speakers who Fuck YOU!

      James has shared the platform with many top speakers such as Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, Brian Tracy, Tom Antion, Joel Bauer, Frank Kern, Matt Bacak, John Childers, Lloyd Irvin, Lee Milteer, Robert Skrob, Bill Glazer, Dan Kennedy, Mike Koenigs, Mari Smith, Jeff Walker, Chris Cardell, Michael Cage, Rick Frishman, Tony Hsieh, Robert Allen, Joe Theismann, Eban Pagan, John Assaraf, Niurka, Bill Walsh, Glenn Morshower, Bill Dorfman, Evolution of Dance, Judson Laipply, Joe Martin, Les Brown, Stephen Pierce, Than Merrill, Armand Morin, Aussie Rob, Bill Bartmann, Tom Antion, National Speakers Association, Dave Lakhani, Joel Bauer, Kelly O’Neil, Kevin Nations, Larry Loik, George Foreman, Patricia Fripp, Brbara de Agelis, SANG, Larry Benet, Wealth Builders Event, Rock Star Marketing Boot Camp, GKIC, Glazer-Kennedy, Denis Waitley, Michael Beckwith, Fran Harris, Coaching Super Summit, Tom Antion Fusion, Speak at Colleges, College Speaking Success, Adam Ginsberg, Jim Kwik, Dottie Walters, Christine Comaford, Speak Your Way to Wealth, Steven E, Lee Pound, James Roche, Mike Stewart, Eric Lofholm, Lynn Rose, Joe Polish

  5. Holistic Survival? Dude, if you’re in a position to read a website and listen to a podcast I’m pretty sure you’ve got survival covered nicely.

  6. Heeheehee, good one SD! :-)
    I like your style Bubba, you show ’em! :-)

    Thanks for the good Robin Hood stuff,

    Mark

  7. /giggle
    Peeps should learn to count to 10 before hitting the send button. This made my day.

  8. That was both funny and sad. @SD, I loved your initial response! I agree–at a certain point it just gets silly.

    IMHO that little email exchange, much like the earlier blogworld 2012 one, is additional evidence of my theory that all of the non-psychopaths involved in this crap (or at least the ones that act as support staff to someone else) have managed to delude themselves that they’re not helping scammers.

    That’s the only way to explain how they could do something so dumb (as to ask you to come to them for an interview).

    I feel a little bad for Kim Spencer-Kline. Apparently she’s self employed and has been doing PR for Jason Hartman since Feb of last year:

    Public Relations
    Independent Contractor

    February 2011 – Present (1 year 4 months)

    Research, invite, and schedule guests for interviews for Jason Hartman, who is President of Platinum Properties Investor Network and host of the Creating Wealth Show, The Holistic Survival Show, AIPIS Show, Jetsetter Show, and several more.

    Depending on how this goes down, she might have trouble finding anymore PR clients. That could suck. She might have to fall back on her other sources of income which are apparently “Publishing/Editing/Illustrating“, “Transcriptionist“, and “Caregiver“.

    Still, considering that Jason Hartman lives in a suburb of scamtown, maybe that’s for the best.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd, The email did say this:

      “After recently becoming familiar with The Salty Droid, Jason Hartman…[aggrandizement]…would like to conduct a brief 20-30 minute interview with you…”

      That choice of words indicates that she was directed to make contact with SD. In that case, to use the cliche, “it’s the director’s fault.” However, looking over available information, it might also be said that it is probably just ONE of the director’s faults.

      1. @Chip, Is Salty Droid chicken shit? He should do the interview and expose more internet scams.

        1. @salty1,

          And let them use his name as an implied endorsement?

          If he did the interview, do you think they’d publish the parts where he says their other guests are all scammers? They’d either edit it down to pronouns and prepositions, or they’d decide to scrap the whole story after he took time to talk to them.

        2. @salty1,

          Interviews are a dice-y business. I’ve heard tell of many and more situations where a person interviewed later came to say “I was misquoted.”

          Remember Reeter Skeeter in Harry Potter? My understanding is that reporters with her kind of “ethics” are very much the norm over here in the really, real world. Reporters don’t often come to you to get the real story or the inside scoop. Rather, they come to you having already made up their mind as to what the story is and they just want to get quotes out of you that back up their version.

          So @SD goes there and gets interviewed. And then those folks get to take all his sentences out of context and make it sound like he’s saying something totally other than what he is actually trying to say.

          I do know of one interview to which the droid and his operator have consented. It’s available here:
          http://www.seobook.com/salty-droid-interview


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Wyrd ::

      I don’t think he’s in the suburbs … he has 100% of the indicators … right down to a “charity” that helps distribute the self-help good news.

      http://jasonhartmanfoundation.org/

      Kim should have caught the subtle hint that was :: “you’ve got to be fucking kidding me” … and scampered off.

  9. A key part of any scam is when the con artist makes every effort to appear widely accepted by the masses.

    Sadly too many legitimate entities are willing dupes who perpetuate the carnage.

    Please notice how many in scammer world will ‘create’ a pseudo-legitimate entity in order to create the appearance of legitimacy

    1. @Shit Storm,

      Yeah. It’s all about the (false) social proof. Sadly, it seems more and more obvious to me that huge chunks of the media and the PR industry are in it up to their necks with the scamitude. I’m not trying to say (at least not yet, not right now) that the PR industry is a scam (although that wouldn’t be much of a leap), just that if your focus is marketing or if your focus is Public Relations or if your focus is sales, then in all of these cases, “truth” and “facts” are only conditionally helpful to making your case. In any of those professions, there’s a tendency to just go with whatever will increase market share, increase publicity, or increase sales, and never mind if there’s any real value in the product or service or not so long as there’s a public perception of value, then the social proof will be there and so the product or service will sell and the money will roll in.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd, This is another reason why the big launches, with their artificial scarcity, are so popular. There’s the angle where they’re tricking consumers into thinking there is some kind of limit when, in actuality, the only limit is they *might* stop selling it at midnight on x day.

        This, however, is an added benefit. All the sales are done and the doors closed before anyone in the general marketplace has had a chance to actually review their purchases and start the REAL social proof chatter.

    2. @Shit Storm, maybe salty should do a post about Obama inviting Adam Horwitz and Laura Roeder (among others) to the White House. Talk about fucking social proof and appearing legit..

      1. @jake, Hmmm. Seems like it’s probably true…searching…searching…or do you have the documentation already?

          1. @Jack, Nothing says, “destined for a hard fail” more than someone posturing it up for the camera by making a cheesy, stock muzak sinhanced video where a limo-splurge is presented as part of “a day in the life.”

            But the “top 100 entrepreneurs in the country?” What nonsense. The top 100 entrepreneurs in the country are too busy being entrepreneurs.

            The event speaker said that “cumulatively, [the attendees] represented $374 million in revenue.” That’s an average of $3.74 million a year, per attendee, in business REVENUE. Not profits, but revenue.

            A stadium (or two, or three, or…) could be filled with people who have businesses generating those numbers. But most of those people have already been inundated with all the purchasable recognition offers that money can buy. That leaves only “fresh meat,” some of which is rancid.

            Pasting the event’s “about us” text into google’s highly reliable (but little known) online b.s. translator, gives this result:

            “We (some mixed agenda mystery collective) have slapped together yet another indiscriminate, sponsor money generating “recognition event” aimed at the image-consumed ‘entrepreneurs under 30’ (cough) “niche.”” (End translation)

      2. @jake ::

        Well that’s some bullshit now isn’t it.

        Anyone have a copy of the full list from last year?

            1. @Jack, Hi Jack. The legend is that Dan Kennedy has only ever revealed his invisible stream secret to his urologist. Knowing that secret could really open doors for a person, even if it’s just to some restroom.

      3. @jake,

        For what it’s worth, that’s the Old Executive Office Building and one of the house office buildings. But yeah, point taken.

    3. @Shit Storm, OMG! When I worked for Stephen Pierce he milked that legitimacy advantage for all he could. It didn’t matter if he never exchanged more than “Hello” with those other speakers on the big stage at Get Motivated, he dropped all those names and still does. He fails to mention that they demoted him to the 4:30 slot and then threw him out due to excessive complaints.

      They gave him enough rope to hang himself, and he did.

  10. “No Kim. You’ve disturbed my peace and tranquility … so now I want an answer.”

    … that is funny shit!

  11. @SD

    Hold on a second, Salty. There is an entire sub-culture of IM scamming you haven’t really looked at. It’s the “World-Government Conspiracy Alien Invasion Surviving Financial Crash Hide Gold Can Your Own Food Get Your Guns Ready” experts selling seminars, courses, coaching etc.

    They have their own “Syndicate” apart from the one you are ably destroying. They are also ripping people off selling everything from useless supplements to “Free energy” devices to spiritual counseling etc etc.

    Time to look at these guys….

    Have a look at:

    Alex Jones
    Catherine Austin Fitts
    David Icke

    And look at THIS:

    http://www.thrivemovement.com/

    “Thrive” is the “end of the world/financial collapse” scammers answer to “The Secret”.

    Same model of the same experts interviewing and recommending each other.

    I know you are very busy but when you are ready to take on another war…

    RJ

    1. @Ross Jeffries, NLP can’t-get-laid ass clown, you talkin’ about the folks exposing the greatest SCAM in human history–the Federal Reserve system, whereby a privately owned cartel/syndicate prints money out of nothing and then loans it to the marks for their physical real-world assets as collateral, and then contracts the phony credit system in order to foreclose on all those assets, ie, the physical planet.

      Imagine if Salty’s Syndicate had that kind of power. NLP clown… mind your own ego-based glass house before you cast stones at those who actually care about the wellbeing of their fellow human beings. Fucking clown.

      1. @, I understand that the banking system is sick, maybe even terminal. But doing away with the Fed is not going to help. I would point you to the economic shenanigans of the period circa 1828 to circa 1862 in the United States. It’s a financial black hole, in large part because there was no central bank.

        I really don’t want to go back to a time when people were printing their own money and banks going bust all over the place. (For just one of many, many examples, search on “Kirtland Anti-Banking Society scandal”–this involves Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon church.)

        America didn’t get to where it is now without fiscal policy, and it may be that fiscal policy is strangling us now, but getting rid of the Fed and going back to the gold standard is not going to work.

        tl;dr: anti-Paulista rant. Sorry folks, an obstetrician is not qualified to render economic advice.

        1. @mirele, The scammers exposed by SD are but mini-me’s of the REAL scammers, the guys who print money out of nothing and convince you that it’s good and proper to be their slave (like the brainwashed suckers on the IM mailing lists). (Note: I didn’t mention gold — I’d prefer if you, mirele, issued our currency, as I at least trust your intentions.) Where do you think the IM crowd learned their craft? mirele, I’m sure your intentions are good. Therefore, give ME the power to create money out of nothing and loan it out for collateral–the Rothschilds have no particular ability greater than I to issue bogus wealth. (Pay me $1997 and I’ll teach you how to MMO vs. give me the power to print money and I’ll give you financial security (excepting when I steal 40% of your parents’ retirement funds through a bogus derivatives-derived mutual fund collapse)). So, mirele, since I think you are a well meaning soul, let’s terminate the Rothschilds’ monopoly right to commit fraud and give it to ME instead — at least I would use SOME of my gains to uplift humanity. (social proof, forthcoming)

          Corruption is corruption and scams are scams, whether or not you feel that you have the personal power to attack them. Losers like Kern, et al, should be taken down by us all. So should the big fish like the Rothschilds. They’re identical except for scale. Step into your true power, mirele. Expand your understanding of fraud, lies, and scams.

          PS — Apologies, Droid. I didn’t start this thread, Jeffries did (and it had to be answered).

      2. @Anonymous,

        “you talkin’ about the folks exposing the greatest SCAM in human history”

        Relying on that subculture and the parasites that exploit it to expose the Fed is a lost cause. Whatever thoughtful voices might be in that crowd are drowned out by the hucksters selling gloom and apocalypse kits, and encouraging people to use their Fed-supported plastic to buy survival gear, “just in case.” If the world doesn’t end as promised, then many of those disappointed backyard bunker buyers end up even more in debt and dependent on the Fed they fear.

        I’m not crazy about RJ’s chosen field either, but that doesn’t preclude him from making an accurate observation. Knee-jerk hissing doesn’t change that, nor does it make a comment more readable or persuasive. It just feels like listening to someone speak through one ear, and hearing a cat clawing the furniture with the other.

        1. @Knee jerking hisser,
          One question for you: Is the privately owned Federal Reserve system constitutional, within the rules of the founding documents of our republic?

          Yes, or no?

          Pompous one: I could give a shit about “RJ’s chosen field.” Put him in any field and he would still be an ass clown.

          Look people, if you are going to attack scammers, then be consistent. Anything less and you come off as a bunch of whiny losers (which doesn’t help SD’s cause). Attack scammers with strength or attack not at all, as a weak attack is more dangerous than no attack.

          On the other hand, with a herd of LIONS backing his efforts, SD is unstoppable.

          1. @Anonymous,

            “One question for you: Is the privately owned Federal Reserve system constitutional, within the rules of the founding documents of our republic?”

            My comment was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your opinion of the Fed. I was simply pointing out that the attached survivalist subculture and accompanying infestation of scammers drags that lobby down. Until that marginalizing element is entirely removed from the equation, it will continue to get about as much serious attention as a second-hand U.F.O. sighting reported on a beer-stained postcard.

            “I could give a shit about “RJ’s chosen field.” Put him in any field and he would still be an ass clown.”

            Then it boils down to just a personal vendetta, and the “cat clawing the furniture” audio goes from one channel to full stereo with reverb.

            “Look people, if you are going to attack scammers, then be consistent.”

            You’re not really referring to consistency, because there has always been consistency. You’re really suggesting SD be comment-driven to provide drive through service for “nominated villains,” regardless of their domain, and even if it falls outside the focus of the blog. This blog is dedicated to assisting the victims of a very specific, highly predatory, non-justifiable ecosystem.

            “with a herd of LIONS backing his efforts, SD is unstoppable.”

            Yes, and not only are the LIONS currently on it, but so are the tigers and bears, oh my!

            1. @Uncle Ralph,

              Uncle Ralph, I respond to you with good will:

              “One question for you: Is the privately owned Federal Reserve system constitutional, within the rules of the founding documents of our republic?”

              My comment was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your opinion of the Fed. I was simply pointing out that the attached survivalist subculture and accompanying infestation of scammers drags that lobby down. Until that marginalizing element is entirely removed from the equation, it will continue to get about as much serious attention as a second-hand U.F.O. sighting reported on a beer-stained postcard.
              ***Fair enough. There are certainly leaches sucking on that movement (as with any movement). I have family members who have healed themselves from debilitating diseases from the supplements hawked by that fringe (and I’m the first to criticize the supplement industry).

              “I could give a shit about “RJ’s chosen field.” Put him in any field and he would still be an ass clown.”

              Then it boils down to just a personal vendetta, and the “cat clawing the furniture” audio goes from one channel to full stereo with reverb.

              ***Excellent counterpoint, and I must agree with you. Upon reflection, my issue is this: RJ made a career out of teaching people how to scam other people, and then comes on this most sacred of blogs casting stones against people who have done more to expose scams than anyone in modern times. That stuck in my craw. I understand if it had a lesser effect on you.

              “Look people, if you are going to attack scammers, then be consistent.”

              You’re not really referring to consistency, because there has always been consistency. You’re really suggesting SD be comment-driven to provide drive through service for “nominated villains,” regardless of their domain, and even if it falls outside the focus of the blog. This blog is dedicated to assisting the victims of a very specific, highly predatory, non-justifiable ecosystem.
              ***Nope. I check this blog every day and almost never comment. I commented because RJ made the comment that he made–and he of all people (especially according to the ethics of this blog) has forfeited his right to comment on such matters (dish dirt, yes; cast stones, no), especially on this blog. My post was a visceral reaction to the pot calling the kettle black. I would have never (out of respect for SD) brought up the Federal Reserve on this sight were it not
              previously broached (by RJ). I absolutely don’t think that SD should be “comment-driven to provide drive through service for “nominated villains,” regardless of their domain, and even if it falls outside the focus of the blog.” Quite the contrary, which is why I rarely post. However, when the subject is broached on this site, in this community, which I respect, I felt an obligation to interject. I don’t think that SD should cover the Fed Scam based on my comments, as there are plenty of sites already filling that space. However, when the Fed is broached on this site, I do think that the readership owes a certain consistency of philosophy when it comes to scams. A scam is a scam, whether or not you feel the power to attack it. Kern, et al, are pussies, easily attacked–the powers that be (Fed) take another set of stones. All I’m asking is that the readership of this blog (not SD, specifically) have the stones to call a spade a spade.

              “with a herd of LIONS backing his efforts, SD is unstoppable.”

              Yes, and not only are the LIONS currently on it, but so are the tigers and bears, oh my
              ***Cute.

      3. @,

        Shoot the messenger and flay him alive, but there is serious scamming going on in the Alex Jones’ world. I won’t get into the political side of it; even if they are right about the Fed it doesn’t mean that THEY should be trusted to invest your money or as a source of financial/health/product advice.

        More to the point: Alex Jones is way, way bigger than Tony Robbins. It’s a sign of the times. Back in the 80’s and 90’s, Jones would have been laughed off the stage.

        RJ

        1. @Ross Jeffries,

          Ok, Ross. Looking back over your history, where do you stand? I’m sure you’re a good guy at heart, but what about all the people you influenced? Shouldn’t you first reconcile your karma before stirring up new karma that is way above your pay grade? What scams are Alex, David or Katherine pulling? Lay them bare here, and if they have merit, let’s attack them. Otherwise, let’s focus on the niche of SD — Internet Marketing — heavily employed by the seduction community (Eben Pagan, et al), of which I believe you were a progenitor. Here on SD, let’s work out your karma. We can move on to other folks later.

          I love SD and the people here, but if our values are attacking scams, then let’s attack scams. And if we want to keep it focused on Internet Marketers, then let’s keep if focused on Internet Marketers. (even though the fraud web extends WAY beyond them.)

          1. @,

            Eben was a seduction student of mine. He left @2000 to start his own rival business. I had NOTHING and have had NOTHING to do with it.

            To say I am a “progenitor” of Eben is ludicrous. I certainly never encouraged him or even suspected that he would start a rival business. He never talked to me or consulted me on it. I’ve not spoken to him since 2000.

            I have never promoted or been involved in any business with him. EVER. End of story.

            Had I assisted him in any way with any of his business, I would have “karma” to work out. I’ve done none of that.

            End of story…
            RJ

    2. @Ross Jeffries,

      Thrive is definitely scamitude. However, as to their exact message, that seems a little bit vague.

      It didn’t seem to me that they said the world was going to end. It sounded like they were saying that their are massive government and big pharma conspiracies to cover up and thwart the creation of alternative (and “free”) energies–free energies that are so cool that they cannot even be measured.

      And for most of the video, it didn’t seem like they were specifically IM-ish (but of course they’re using the Internet to scam, but now everyone does that–just like everyone uses the Internet for everything else too).

      But right at the end of the video they mentioned “the power of the Internet”.

      It looks like their target audience is New Wage and McSpirituality and UFO believers and people that believe there is secret Free Energy that “THEY don’t want you to know about!”.

      And so the video and the “start the conversation” message and the list act, as always, as the initial “lead gen”.

      No I don’t think these are Internet Marketing/Make Money Online scammers.

      They are definitely “scammers on the Internet”.

      An IM-MMO scam plays to a person’s innate greed.

      OTOH, these Thrive dickwads play to a person’s innate sense of wanting to help to make the world a better place. That’s pretty f*ckin evil.

      Also, Thrive wants to be converted into as many languages as possible as quickly as possible. Thrive wants to go global.

      (the Truth) Thrive wants to be Your New New Age Feel Good We Can Save The Earth And Get Rid Of Big Pharma And Big Corporations Worldwide RELIGION.

      And Thrive wants you to give them all your monies. (as per usual)


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd, Thrive with its 12 sectors sound an awful lot like the “seven mountains of influence” that one hears about these days amongst the Protestant charismatic circles (think Sarah Palin). Like the Thrive people, the Seven Mountains people think Gawd (not to be confused with the Supreme Being) is going to basically hand over the reins of government and society to them just in advance of Jeebus’ (not to be confused with that guy in the Gospels) soon return.

        It’s all crackpottery, as far as I can tell.

          1. @Head Honcho, Can you vote me up, too? I need a hug. I could also use a replacement filter for my icemaker, but I know from watching those IM’ers that initial requests should always start out small.

            1. @Ben, Good form. I already said I can’t…one vote per person. In case you missed it, I was jokingly saying I voted it up, too. No hug.

      1. @SD, Great article. I especially liked this hauntingly poetic line:

        “As we walked along the paved expanse directly above the structure, someone pointed out a pile of coyote shit.”

        The unique pairing of the daily-encountered literary conventions, “paved expanse,” and “coyote shit,” proves that even today, it is still possible for literature to break new wind.

        1. @Pops Hemingway, Yer good, Pops. Very good. Got a great gut-laff, then a delayed-response laff from that one line.

      2. @SD,

        Well—the bunker people look very sad and crazed-out

        My parents went through WW2; and how you survive is with the help of your neighbors—not hiding alone in a bunker

      3. @SD, What’s that? Sue the crap out of these guys?

        Hey..I’m on your side here. They ripped me off too and yes, I’m an idiot and you warned me and I didn’t listen until way too late about Scheffren etc.

        So point me to the donation button and I’ll kick in $500. Least I can do.

        And as far as publicity goes, there is a magazine called “Radio TV Interview Report” I used it in the early 90’s to get on every TV talk show there is. They have an online version now and they are legit. You could probably get booked on lots of news magazine shows based on the Verge article.

        http://www.rtir.com

        1. @Ross Jeffries ::

          The seduction dirtbags RJ … jesus … you are shit at taking hints. But anywayz they are coming up.

          And I’m not going to become a publicity whore just because I could … I already could have if that’s what I wanted. The Verge story seemed like something worth believing in :: so I took a risk on them … and I was totally right.

          Otherwise … I want to do a bunch of weak ass interviews like I want the fucking pox.

          1. @SD, When you are ready to do the seduction biz, I know dirt like you know R2D2’s rear gasket grease box.

            Just let me know.

            RJ

            1. @Ross Jeffries, My comments above were not defending the contents of your closet.

              “When you are ready…Just let me know.”

              You might just get your eager wish, Ross. You may also find yourself receiving a mention in any such story. I only said, “may,” because I won’t be authoring it. If I was going by my expectations, I would use the word, “will.”

              Did you not notice that SD completely ignored your mention of a financial ‘contribution?’

              Perhaps your inclusion will be a marginal aside (or not). Maybe SD will have mercy on your “B-team” soul (or not). Even if you were on the outside of a syndicate and looking in, you added something to the overall facilitating noise. You also sold your own private label snake oil.

              It’s not “just” an organized cartel or “scale” that defines a scam. It can also be what is being sold.

              That “PUA” stuff is like a drug where the sale itself provides most of the stimulation.

          2. Does anyone do Google searches?

            RTIR.com ?? Bill and Steve Harrison???

            I highly doubt SD is going to use the services of two people who were (are?) Glazer-Kennedy Platinum Members, friends with Brendon Burchard, was an affiliate for Malinchak…AND MUCH, MUCH MORE.

          3. @SD,

            You know, I spoke, by Skype, with the author of the Verge article, Joe Flatley. He said my name came up in conversation and that he told you that he thinks I am “a stand up guy”. And he said to me he didn’t see me in anyway as someone who would rip someone off.

            That’s good enough for me; if the author of the investigative piece featuring you says I’m not a rip off, I think that speaks pretty loudly.

            He also said you were “whip saw smart” and meticulous and would not make accusations you could not back up with facts.

            1. @Ross Jeffries ::

              Man … what the fuck?

              You use a private conversation to give a hearsay public testimoanial for yourself?

              Who does that?

              And I didn’t call The Verge asking for opinions about scammers … because that’s my thing and they called me. Flatley saying someone wasn’t a scammer isn’t something I’d write down because people are forever telling me this or that one “isn’t a scammer” {see eg Amazon’s publishing deal with Tim Ferris} … but I don’t fucking care … I’ll decide for my own self.

              Did you know that more than half my readers are nice ladies? It’s quite an Internet accomplishment by me. Ripping out your liver would be hugely popular around here … so you are going to want to take down the familiarity a fucking notch before I feel the obligation.

            2. @Ross Jeffries, Sounds like the comment-type a scammer would want to have to resort to doing.

              Also I don’t understand about why you had to ask Mr. Flatley if you were a scammer. Is it because you got confused from not seeing your name in his article?

            3. @Ross Jeffries, Wait. But it’s a good and easy idea from you, because now instead of having to read the SD site to figure out about ways to know if somebody is a scammer, we can just ask that person to ask Joseph Flatley if they’re a scammer and thne if Mr. Flatley tells them they’re not a scammer we can be A-OK to move forward with them.

            4. @Ross Jeffries,
              Dude, you have to have the biggest ego I’ve ever seen.

              I think you videotape yourself masturbating and then masturbate to that video.

              Ironically, that joke comes from comedian Jeffrey Ross. I’m not kidding. Google it – said during the Trump roast.

            5. @Ross Jeffries, actually, all you have established is that YOU said he said you aren’t a scammer. There is absolutely no way in hell such a self serving hearsay statement has any credibility coming from a guy who sells people “systems” to manipulate others. But nice try. It was a cute attempt.

            6. @Ross Jeffries, For a guy who’s supposedly an expert on manipulation you don’t seem to recognize “putting the mark at ease 101” when it’s being applied to you. That he tells you something during the interview to put you at your ease so you’ll relax and forget to be on your guard is probably something taught in the first class on journalism at your local community college. Adversarial questions and surprise accusations are so much more effective when they come out of left field from someone you’d tagged as “harmless”.

              1. @Melkor ::

                Ha! Exactly.

                You can’t con a con man :: except that you can … because cons are actually quite horrible at maintaining any sort of objective reality. You can con a con without even trying.

                I’ll bet Flatley was nice to Jenkins too :: and I doubt he got in to Underground 8 by telling Yanik that even two Yaniks stacked would not a full man make.

                You know who is hard to con though? The “whip saw smart” Salty Droid :: which is why I always ignore compliments from people who ain’t my Moms … everybody else wants something.

            7. @Ross Jeffries,

              Then they clearly didn’t read your latest clap-trap “mindframe persuasion” scam with its automatic default opt-in to monthly payments for “coaching” and claims that your course “could make you millions.”

              By the way, I am sure it is your best stuff.

              a1

      4. @SD,

        Why isn’t Ross Jeffries and his IM scams in your sights? He comments here with impunity even thought he markets his own “MindFrame Persuasion” IM scam that says crap like, “This is an understanding and tool that could make you millions even if you use nothing else from this Home Study Course!.”

        http://www.mindframepersuasion.com/

        a1

        1. @anonone,

          @SD says the seduction dirtbags are coming up, so maybe Ross Jeffries will make a special guest appearance.

          Ross is using the PR crisis management move of publicly acknowledging the problem before the media (SD) does a big exposé. It’s at once commendable and manipulative. How can we respond to it? Say, “Shut up, Ross Jeffries! Stop talking about PUA scams!” That would be pretty hypocritical for a site that’s main function is talking about scams.

          1. @Lanna,

            Jeffries comes blabbing here like he is a non-IM scammer, when in fact he is one.

            In regards to the PUA business, I think you’re right about the pre-emptive PR strike, but it is probably that he wants his competition taken down, not him, so he is trying to suck-up to the fake robot.

            Jeffries is known for spreading lies and unsubstantiated rumors about his competition in comments here. I had hoped that he had just gone away.

            a1

            1. @anonone, Really?

              The author of the Verge article himself told Salty he does NOT think I’m a “scammer”. So what do you make of THAT?

              Jason can confirm that this was said..although he might choose not too.

            2. @Ross Jeffries, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross.

              You made a conscious choice to create your own “science,” for money. You’ve gone deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of absurdity with every passing year.

              Now you find yourself a million miles away from reality. Selling what can ultimately be described as, “back of the comic book” gimmickry.

              Can you see yourself in a few more years, fumbling around with a cane, and selling PUA manuals out of your car trunk?

            3. @Kevin, yes…the “science”. I also like when Jeffries and his ilk refer to their “systems” as “technologies”.

            4. @anonone,

              Yeah, Ross Jeffreys always cracks me up. At a glance he just seems like a failed business man and the token try-hard of the seduction industry, but when you train your eyes to look past the NLP, the whole living with his mom thing, and the fact that he’s a fat slob you can see that deep down, he really is trying to be a scammer.

              It’s hard to hate someone as pathetic as Ross Jeffreys. He thinks he’s living in the film “Catch Me If You Can”, but the rest of us just see “I Am Sam.” You can’t hate poor Sam, he’s just a retarded guy who wants his daughter back.

              Thanks for tuning in.

        2. @SD

          See it as you like. Write about me what you will.

          But when the time comes to do your thing on my industry, I have dirt that you won’t find anywhere else, including possible access to former employees of some of these companies that have been gagged by non-disclosure/non-disaparagement agreements. Whether they will talk to you or not, I don’t know; but they HAVE talked to me, off the record.

          If I have to take it on the chin in order for these guys to get it up the shorts, so be it.

          RJ

          1. @Ross Jeffries ::

            So you’re thinking I’m not good at gathering information then?

            Is that another one of the things that you’re expert at? Cause I thought I was doing okay.

            And if you have something …. fucking send it and stop talking about it. People have sent me stuff about you … so that’ll make it even steven.

            1. @SD,

              Did I say that? I’m sure you can conduct discovery. I just have access to some people I’m pretty sure you don’t and they have giant axes to grind. They also have non-disclosure agreements
              and won’t want to be recorded or publicly identified.

              You are a lawyer so you know what that entails.

              I’d prefer to speak with you about what I know but some of it has to be off the record. I’ll explain
              why when we talk. I do have some juicy emails from the Seduction Syndicate that a “b” list member forwarded to me. You want those puppies?

              And any time you are ready I’ve got students who are willing to be thoroughly interrogated
              who will tell you in detail that my stuff works. A few are willing to be publicly identified because they are that grateful

              RJ

              1. @Ross Jeffries ::

                “your stuff” is a bag of donkey dicks … and I won’t humor for a single second the ridiculous notion that it has even the slightest bit of redeeming virtue.

    3. @Ross Jeffries, Yeah, and while you’re at it, check out the Catholic Church and Scientology and 99% of the college degrees and the federal loan program, salty.

      1. @Peter,

        My mother died of liver cancer, April 29, 2007. I miss her to this day.

        Fat? I’m 6’2″, 195. You may as well call me short.

        Really is name-calling really the best you can do?

        Next you’ll be calling me a communist.

        Do better…..

        1. @Ross Jeffries,

          No need to qualify yourself to me, champ. Though I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to list your height and weight to me. Still, everyone I know who has seen you in person says you look way fat.

          You’re not a communist (that I know of). You’re just a guy who lectures guys on hypnotizing women and threatens Neil Strauss with weird creepy abyss inspired psychobabble. Which is totally funny.

            1. @Ross Jeffries,

              No, Ross, it wasn’t. I would remember if I was watching Star Wars. I was definitely reading Neil’s ridiculous book The Game when I came across that awesome line. Kind of funny that even though you’re supposedly the guy who convinced Neil to write the book, it’s pretty much a subtle slam against your entire life’s work.

              Or maybe that was Star Wars too.

  12. Is there any internet marketer that you suggest learning from?

    Any thoughts about Brendon Burchard and Rich Schefren please?

    Thanks,
    Anita

    1. @Anita ::

      They should both be put into the Nile like Moses … and then the Pharaoh’s daughter should like totally not rescue them.

      … you can’t make money online.

      1. @SD,

        Ouch. I kinda liked them…

        Didn’t buy Brendon’s latest product (High Performance Academy) but I was honestly amazed by the launch and the content he shared.

        Well, being more present and productive doesn’t sound like a scam to me.
        Even if my sister tells me that it’s all commonly known stuff and everybody knows how to focus… nonetheless I don’t see that many happy, fully present and productive people out there, so Brendon’s might got a point.

        BTW I see your website gets tons of traffic. Should you put some relevant ads on your site and you could actually make some money… online! :)

        1. @Anita, You must have played the part of the “troll” back when you were in school. You’re a little rusty though.

          “Even if my sister tells me that it’s all commonly known stuff…”

          Because that’s what sisters talk about. “I.M.” Why, sure.

          “I was honestly amazed”

          Well, Anita, get ready to leap into the air with unbridled joy, because here is your Brendon to “amaze” you some more:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsBA0q6F5TI

          That advice that you should “talk to people like you were at a barbecue?” Brilliant! All these years, I’ve been talking to people like we were at a picnic, so this was a revelation. It should have been BARBECUE talk! Wow. So amazing!

          1. @Carl,

            Barbecue talk @ the house that internet riches “rents”. It is the same house John Reese claimed was his.

            1. @Anonymous, You mean Andy and Brendon don’t both live there like the happy, devoted couple they appear to be?

              That’s not the actual place where Andy usually shoves his pudgy fingers into beer or whatever else he can reach, yank, thrust, or pull into his ever-awaiting and all-consuming Guinness-record-certified piehole?

              That’s not even the home where occasionally, between desperate and unsuccessful attempts to woo the unisex heirs of powdered donut empires, he sometimes practices (albeit futilely) appearing human in front of a full length, full width mirror?

              What’s this world coming to when even the scammers turn out to just be scammers?

          2. @Carl,

            Andy Jenkins is so gross . . . Can he please leave his finger out of his glass? What a pig

            1. @Anonymous, Yes indeed, “happiness” does seem to abound (as do manboobs). Though, as we can also see, a 4 year etiquette school could either be money well spent, or a traumatic experience for the instructors. I’d lean toward the latter, while it’s anybody’s guess which way Andy and Brendon lean.

          3. @Carl, @Sprocket, @Mitch, @wide eyes

            Andy rents this home located at:
            406 Sea Ridge Drive, San Diego, CA
            White house, with 2 car garage and very run down.
            If you look to the right of the house you can see a walkway to go to the beach.

            So if you in the area and want to stop by and say hello I’m sure he would love it.
            You can also send all fan mail, box of shit (not the stuff they sell), dead flowers or any used condoms (I hear Andy likes to tie em up in knots and chew them like gum, you know the old school gum with the liquid inside!) LOL

            Can’t afford to get a real home so this makes it look good for Scam Videos.

    2. @Anita, They’re frauds too, There’s reasonable people to learn from like Aaron Wall, but spend an afternoon in a library reading Ogilvy on Advertising. If you’re looking to do PPC, Google has an enormous library for you; if you’re going to spam your friends – I mean, do social media – Facebook will be more than happy to help.

      There’s absolutely no reason to pay someone for the first chapter of a generic Business 101 book, three reports from sba.gov on starting your own business, accounting and customer acquisition and some generic motivational twaddle when looking up the originals is so much better and free.

      1. @Melkor,

        Thank you Melkor! You are absolutely right about PPC and FB. You can learn everything directly from them, for free. I’m kind of shocked to see Mari Smith or Amy Porterfield holding a webinar on these changes… Why? It’s all listed on the site!

        Oh, are these two ladies frauds too?
        I really don’t know who to trust anymore.

        1. @Anita, I’m not – grifters will grift, and use any and all opportunities to present you with the opportunity to give them moniez.

          Though there’s something to be said for getting someone who’ve had the time and the inclination to sit down and work out what the changes will mean in terms of customer acquisition it’s all meaningless unless you have an actual business selling things that are real things to people and you’re marketing to your audience through this specific channel.

        2. @Anita,

          All this “motivational” stuff is not only a well oiled scam, it’s psychologically unhealthy. Letting a motivational speaker inside your head is like being colonized by foreign run dictatorship.

          Better to have your psyche to be kind of a partly anarchic democracy, where all the little inner voices get a hearing, and with no big blustering inner-boss shouting at all the other parts.

          1. @Yakaru,

            Drinking a lot of water helps to focus, though :)
            And that was a free piece of advice from Brendon.

            And SD, of course you can make money online. All these names on your site did. Big time.
            And you could too!

            Just for fun, try to imagine that you put your own “You Can’t Make Money Online” book on the bottom of your site.
            Since you are witty, intelligent and the leader of this not-that-small community, your herd would immediately buy anything from you. This herd that happily nods to whatever you have to say. This herd that hates scammers. They would buy from you. And then would you become a scam only because you made a few dollars online? Because you educated your herd, they trust you and now they buy from you? All these sales thanks to your hard work of years you put into this blog and your witty book or info product?

            And before you ask me, no. This is not Brendon. This IS Anita :)

            What do you call scam btw? Only people who make a lot of money or anybody that tries to sell anything?

            1. @Anita,

              Drinking a lot of water helps me to focus on finding the nearest restroom and peeing. Is that what Brendon meant?

            2. @Anita,

              “Drinking a lot of water helps to focus, though :)”

              Damn. It’s him really moving up the freeline there on that free-advice-idea.

            3. @Lanna,

              I normally drink very little water but I tried it and it works.
              You don’t need to drink neither coffee or tea, only lots of water and you will have energy and focus throughout the whole day. Really!

              Yes, you will have to pee more often. But at least in the meantime you detox your body, so that’s good too.

            4. @Anita ::

              Yes :: I could make money online … and without the help of your even worse than Brendon’s advice.

              But I have a big audience … which is about as easy to build as a tower to heaven.

              And I might also have one or two skillz that don’t come in a box … and can’t be attained in less than a decade. So it’s not a very inspirational MMO story.

            5. @Anita,

              “Drinking a lot of water helps to focus, though :)”

              Eating food so you don’t pass out helps to maintain your focus as well.

              You’re welcome.

            6. @Anita, Herd, you insipid cow?

              For a moment there I entertained the notion that you were genuine, I’m now cured of that.

              Detox. Okay, give me the specific molecular weight, the mass spectroscopic or HPLC fingerprint and the LD50 dosage of these supposed toxins, and any reason to think they’re water soluble, passes kidney filtration and is actually present in the human body in physiologically meaningful dosage levels.

            7. @Anita, you honestly think that because this Brendon guy gave you the helpful advice to drink more water this makes him qualified to . . . well, do anything other than audition for the part of Captain Obvious?

    3. @Anita,

      Stay away from these scammer — SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!!!!

      By $50 of books on Amazon if you want to learn about IM.

      Brendon Burchard is a genius at TAKING YOUR SAVINGS AWAY FROM YOU!

      His programs consist of him showing you how great he his BUT they’re not transferable or adapted to your own needs.

      The “be present” spiel he stole from Tony Robbins. It’s about putting you in state of excitement (i.e. hypnotic trance) so he can sell you even more of his frauducts.

      Burchard is a master a sucking money away from his customers. His latest program was $10,000 for a few days of presentation.

      Total scam

      If you have that kind of money sign up with a real accredited school and study marketing in class where you’ll have a real teacher—not a silly guru.

  13. @SD

    Sorry, I was wrong. I thought you had a big herd. But I just saw you on FB and there are only 35 followers who actually never commented on anything – oh, looks like they would never say the things they write here in public, using their own names… what a brave and honest herd you have built, SD! You can be very proud of yourself. Only cheerful and positive no-whiners, action takers, and most of all, highly successful people who don’t blame it on external circumstances.

    Bad news though is that this tiny little herd would never buy from you. It’s too small.
    Sorry. I thought I had found a better way of living for you. Well, I didn’t.

    Keep up with the good work but don’t spend too much time here, because clearly this doesn’t take you anywhere.
    As your dear friend, Tony Robbins once said, “the only thing that really makes you happy in life is progress.”

    I know there’s more in you, there’s talent and unique strength. Use them.

    1. @Anita,

      Never mind anything on this site. THIS BLOG IS A SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      It is only purpose is to make people fail. You are a smart person, I’m sure you understand.

      Here is my advice:

      1) Buy as many info products as you can from every source possible. Until you have spent all your discretionary spending money, all your business development money, all your savings, your whole 401k, your entire college fund for your kids, max out all the credit cards you have, max out all the credit cards you can get with your falling credit rating, spent all the money you borrowed from your parents and relatives and all the money you can get from other revenue streams, and such you have not spent enough. Likely, you can buy more info products and coaching. HINT: if you are not border line living on the street you can buy more info products, memberships to member sites and mastermind group.

      2) Assimilate all the products and produce your own kick ass products. FREE TIP: be sure to call it a “SYSTEM”, it all rage now.

      3)When you talk to your list, be sure to call them “a herd”. It increases your conversion by 10^1000.

      This is a TRUE, PROVEN, the one and only path to FOREVER, ETERNAL and EVERLASTING {anyone got the reference?} ABUNDANCE in YOUR Life!

      If you ever have any doubts, use this as an inspiration:

      http://saltydroid.info/the-ittybiz-spider/
      http://saltydroid.info/decaffeinated-self/

      Namaste!!!

    2. @Anita, “oh, looks like they would never say the things they write here in public, using their own names…what a brave and honest herd you have”

      That’s funny, I don’t see your own name on any of your comments at all. I just see the generic partial pseudonym, “Anita.”

      If you believe in the Kool-Aid you’re slyly attempting, but failing miserably to promote, you should be willing to put your full name behind what you say. Especially since words like “brave” and “honest” seem to be in your vocabulary. Or maybe you are just trying some unfamiliar words on for kicks, like a new pair of shoes you don’t really intend to buy.

      Why, you probably even have a website, “Anita.” Now is your big chance to promote what you so strongly “believe” in, and get some free traffic. After all, this blog routinely gets tons of new, mainstream visitors from major websites, just like TheVerge. Imagine the “herd.”

      If that doesn’t make you want to put on your highwayman’s mask, you might as well just hang up your false claims and go take some regular job to not do.

      “Anita,” let’s see you be “brave” and “honest,” and not the deceptive troll that everyone knows you are.

  14. Man, I love it when this site gets a new influx of traffic from new sources, bringing lots of fresh & funny trolls (ahem @Anita) and crazy n00bs approaching @SD who see themselves as oh-so-different from those featured in the {Targeting} box.

    I also love how when @SD is lazy, he posts those same n00bs’ approach emails.

    Doesn’t anybody realize how emails work? Like … after you send it, it is on the Droid’s computer (you can’t unsend it!) … which is the same thing he uses to write posts on this very blog … and then all it takes is a simple CTRL+C >>> CTRL+V (technically I guess it is “⌘+C >>> ⌘+V” in this case) … and ur awesome emails are totally famous! Super!

    I just hope people don’t start thinking twice before cold-contacting the Salty Droid (via email!) so we can keep having these fun times.

  15. Now I’m thinking “Anita” could be Brendon Burchard herself — I mean himself (so sorry Brendon) . . .

    Brendon, I know you’re half-French — your mom’s side, I believe?

    Change ta vie, fais autre chose du plus interessant, On ne vit qu’une fois.

    1. @wide eyes, You might have accidentally given away Brendon’s next course…”Ambiguous Profits.”

      1. @Ahem, Interesting. I’d heard the title was gonna be “Maximize Your Prophets.”

  16. I wonder if those people try to interact with you just in order to get to the “better end of the fence”.

    To me it seems so.

  17. @ Anita

    “You can’t make money online…”.

    I came across the Salty Droid a few months back while googling around for info on a particular, in my view, scumbag “internet marketer”.

    I’m aware that it’s possible to “make money online” through the sale of legitimate =products and services” … or through the type of fraud practiced by the “internet marketer” low lives discussed in Salty’s posts.

    However, within the context of what this site is all about and at least part of the the audience that, in my view, it’s directed at, e.g., the “I’m about to lose my home … how can I make money fast” folks who are prime targets for “internet marketer” snake oil salesmen, the statement “You can’t make money online” makes perfect sense to me.

    Because none of these people will “make money online” … quite the opposite, in fact … unless they’re also a conscienceless, dishonest sociopathic type who sees no problem making whatsoever in sucking money out of often desperate people by selling them a false dream and/or “product” of little or no value and/or freely available elsewhere.

    1. @E=m^2,

      Guess if I was an “internet marketer” scumbag, mental defective or teenager, or some combination thereof, I’d get some lulz from this.

      But, I’m not … so have to pass on the print suggestion.

      Thanks anyway.

  18. You know time and time again these people try to keep their enemy (you) close by inviting you to be part of their show or conference and then many times you ask one simple question and they try to back away quietly but then its to late. lol

  19. In case those of you that replied to Ross Jeffries’ comments DON’T know what he’s done, here are some hints that I hope you’ll find to be useful (you too when you go after the PUA niche, Mr. Robot)

    – Someone should ask Mr. Jeffries about “women attracting pheromones”. Better said: ask him why he promoted a spray that smelled like a baby’s poop mixed with a slice of “unholy IM scam… smell” as being a total chick magnet

    – Someone should ask Mr. Jeffries about his inside deal with Eben Pagan, oops I mean David De Angelo, where they both claimed that Mr. Jeffries “did it” with Eben’s girlfriend (thereby gaining publicity by stirring up controversy).

    NOTE: looking at Eben’s faggy cowboy hat + pink sunglasses wearing picture at the bottom of this page however, I wonder if the truth is that Mr. Jeffries “did it” with Mr. Pagan and not Mr. Pagan’s girlfriend… an ugly troll he himself would label as a “HB10”, which is PUA slang for “Holy -Bleep- from a scale of 1-10 she’s the ugly child you’d like to abort after birth… lady”

    – Someone should ask Mr. Jeffries why he’s trying to bash on other scammers with this holier than thou attitude sh*t face of his as a way of distracting us from the fact that he’s next. You’re NEXT buddy. If you have the balls to sell nast smelling water for 50 bucks and call it a chick magnet, then you should have the balls to get burned for it too. Take it like a man, although a Mr. Pegen screwing sissy could potentially (technically) also be called non-man-like.

    – Someone that’s made out metal should also ask me about the Seduction Syndicate (Jeffries isn’t it it, which doesn’t make mean you shouldn’t laser his *ss down with your robot claws) of whom I have around 2 years of conversations and inside deals in my email inbox. Who wants some files guys? :D Want names by the way? You got names: Brandon Jackson, Adam Lyons, Carlos Xuma, Vince De Carlo, Eben Pagan, Scott McKay, Neil Strauss, that Savoy guy (forgot his first name, although these are all fake names – pen names – sound familiar?)… basically everyone that’s not friends with Jeffries is in this Seduction Syndicate. Its intentions? The abbreviation of the name is SS… what do you think its intentions are?!

    I think you should do a piece on these guys, because they teach poor, desperate souls stuff like “approach chicks with candy and then do X, Y, and Z” like their middle name is “CPS pedophile”.

    1. @Jeffries Sucks,

      I never sold any such thing. I made a video as a favor to someone, which was a huge error. He promoted it, I never got a penny. Believe what you want.

      I’ve never made any deals with Pagan. EVER. He disgusts me. Neil Strauss was the one who wrote about what happened with what you mentioned. He got no input from me so where he heard it, I don’t know.

      You are correct in that I have NO part of the “Seduction Syndicate”, although many of its members have contacted me and asked to co-promote, for fat commissions. I have ALWAYS said “no” and even “fuck off and die”.

      If I was the money grubbing scammer you suggest, I’d have had no qualms and no conscience about taking the money and doing the deed.

      I have never have.

      Say what you want: i believe in what I do. You don’t have to believe that, that’s fine.

      The fact, is, I run my business in an honest way.

      1. I NEVER refuse refunds.

      2. I don’t do hidden continuity.

      3. I don’t use call centers.

      4. My testimonials are real.

      5. I don’t cross or co-promote other people’s stuff.

      I could conservatively have put MILLIONS in my pockets over the past 10 years had I done #5. Everyone from Mystery to Love Systems to Mehow to all of the major players in my niche have asked me to send bodies to their seminars/sell their coaching and other programs for a fat check. I’ve said NO. I’ve said ‘eat shit and die’. That ought to say something.

      But if Salty wants to talk to me about what I know and rake me over the coals too, he’s welcome too. He’s allowed me to post here for over a year, so if he REALLY thought I was a scammer, as opposed to merely being disgusted by what I teach, why would he allow me to speak here at all?

      RJ

      RJ

      1. @Ross Jeffries ::

        You know people are going to give you shit when you comment here using your real fake name :: and you could call yourself @TinyWhiney instead and make all the same points without the flashback … so don’t act all indignant about it.

        1. @SD, Ok….from now on I’ll call myself Turdburgler.

          Anyway, Jason, when you want to know everything I know, you have my email. Let’s talk.

      2. @Ross Jeffries,

        Your current “MindFrame Persuasion” “that could make [the reader] millions” is a classic money grubbing scam.

        And clearly, Salty loves it when money-grubbing scammers like you post here, just as a spider enjoys the flies that wander into her web.

        a1

        1. @anonone,

          Actually, it’s a damn good product on using persuasive language to structure written and spoken presentations.

          It is NOT a “Biz op” or “business in a box”.

          It’s not a franchise.

          It’s a damn good product and it contains the very best stuff I know about hypnotic language and persuasion, about which I know a lot.

          If you’d like a free copy, let me know. It’s all on line now.

          Again: no biz op. No biz in a box. No “I do it all for you”. It’s a study course and a damned good one. I stand by it.

      3. @Ross Jeffries,

        What about the products you sold through Stylelife academy? When they relaunched you were being pumped up as their secret weapon new addition. Isn’t that cross promotion with Neil Strauss?

        You were also a guest speaker at one of the stylelife events.

        1. @Sentient,
          Oh snap… Mr. Jeffries has some Xplainin’ to do –

          Google this:
          site:stylelife.com ross jeffries

          Sure does seem like he’s mighty close to The Game.

        2. @Sentient,

          No. Here is why.

          The product I created for them was actually a very good one, that got rave reviews. THEY promoted MY product to THEIR list. I never, never, never promoted Stylelife to my customers. Ever.

          Even though they asked me to:

          1. Send my customers to their site to plug the product I created for them.

          2. Subsequently, on multiple occassions, they have asked me to promote their:

          A. Stylelife Conferences They offered me 50% commission. I said NO, repeatedly and I have NEVER, EVER promoted them. I’ve spoken ,without pay(believe what you want) because I love teaching.

          B. They asked me to promote one of their CD package launches at 100% commission. I refused.

          Why I have I consistently refused?

          1. They do bait and switch forced continuity. They promote their seminars and other products, pump you up to really want them and they you are FORCED to take their continuity program if you want the really good deal on the seminar or other products.

          I DETEST that. It’s bait and switch. If you want to offer OPTIONAL continuity that they can pick or refuse, without losing the right/chance to buy the promoted product at the “deal” price, that’s fine.

          I have emails somewhere between myself and Gypsy, their marketing guy.

          For the record: the product I created for them was fantastic. It got the best reviews of anything they’ve ever offered. I created real value for their customers. perhaps the only real value they were getting for the money they were paying.

          I did nothing outside my principles to do that. Promoting their conferences/seminars and other products IS out of my principles and I have NEVER done so.

          I repeat: every major player except for Real Social Dynamics has approached me trying to get me to pitch THEIR products to MY list. I have always refused. ALWAYS, without exception.

          By my estimation I would have put anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars into my pocket had I waived my principles and let these fuckers rip off my customers.

          There is no one else in this business who refuses to do deals with the other players. They are virtually all in bed with each other.

          Now if I was a vile scammer, why would I always say NO FUCKING WAY?

          RJ

          1. @Ross Jeffries

            Because I’ve given you shit before in comments on other posts I am prefacing my question with the disclaimer that it’s a genuine question. What is your distinction for it being acceptable to create a product for Stylelife but refusing to promote them? If they are so bad that you wouldn’t trust them with your client list, why work with them at all?

            1. @What the what,

              Because the work I created with them genuinely is profoundly effective, solved a major problem for guys (learned helplessness) and was the ONLY thing of value they WERE offering.

              I never promoted them or THEIR products or services because they were and are mediocre at best. I’ve made this clear in my own PUAFRAUD.COM blog.

              Subsequently I pulled their rights to sell it because they were not properly supporting the product.

        3. @Sentient, See my answer below.

          And I have guest spoken at their events because, frankly, I love teaching and I love the attention. But I’ve never received a penny for doing so, nor have I ever promoted these appearances to my own customers.

          I’ve publicly bashed Stylelife for how they do business on my own blog. Their bait and switch forced continuity disgusts me.

          1. @Ross Jeffries,

            You just said this:

            > And I have guest spoken at their events because, frankly, I love teaching and I love the > > attention. But I’ve never received a penny for doing so, nor have I ever promoted these > appearances to my own customers.
            >
            > I’ve publicly bashed Stylelife for how they do business on my own blog. Their bait and > > switch forced continuity disgusts me.

            Yet on your own website, you said this:

            But one of the things I’m most excited about is my new joint-venture with Neil’s “Stylelife Academy”.

            Link: http://www.seduction.com/blog/me-neil-strauss-and-the-truth

            Your act is getting old.

            1. @Dick,

              I was excited by the fact that they PROMISED a live coach would provide feedback to students who were taking the program, something I myself did not have at the time.

              They failed to perform on that promise, or I never would have created it in the first place.

              Stylelife did have a unique way of supporting their products, and at the time, they were NOT doing any forced continuity/bait and switch. That happened subsequent to my deal with them.

              In any event, that was my ONE and ONLY JV with someone in my business because that the time, their model was good and sound, or so it seemed.

              I’ve always and only told the rest to fuck off and subsequently always told Stylelife to fuck off when they wanted me to do JV’s on their seminars and other products, because they continue to use bait and switch, forced continuity. I’ve got emails to back that up.

              This has ALL been discussed on my PUAFRAUD blog and all answered in detail about half a dozen times and I tire of repeating it here.

    2. @Jeffries Sucks, Savoy’s real name is Nick Benedict. Another guy who came to me and wanted to do a deal and I told his disgusting, effeminate ass to fuck off and die. True story.

      Chris Odom, aka “Love Drop”, Mystery’s business manager, begged me on multiple occasions to teach at their events. I told him to fuck off an die.

      All true……

      These guys aren’t friends of mine because I WON’T PLAY BALL WITH THEM. I won’t promote them, won’t help them scam.

      You may hate me and what I do. But I believe in what I do. I won’t make money with people who don’t believe in what they do and who harm and deceive with scummy business practices.

      RJ

      1. @Ross Jeffries,

        Look at this garbage that you teach. I’d laugh if it weren’t so creepy and disturbing.

        Ross Jeffries’ Blowjob Pattern NLP Speed Seduction

        Post Admin on Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:17 am

        “I was just sitting here thinking about taking a vacation, if you could imagine your ideal vacation spot what would it be like? (Stop and let her talk)

        You know, I think its so interesting how people connect with their hopes and their desires and their daydreams, right? … I was reading this article the other day about compulsions and it got me to thinking about the difference between compulsion and anticipation.?

        I mean, have you ever come home from a hard day of work and the boss was a jerk and kept piling the papers up on you desk and its like all you can think of is dropping your clothes and getting into that steamy hot bath or shower.

        Its like before you even step in you can already feel that heat working its way through every muscle in your body and all your frustrations just drop away and all you can feel is the pleasure of that warmth just shooting through every part of you.

        And then there’s that moment of sliding in where you really let that pleasure take you and it just feels great doesn’t it?

        Yeah well, do you like chocolate? (Or is there a food that when you see it you absolutely have to put it in your mouth?). I mean, can you stop and remember a time when you saw a piece of chocolate and your mouth is already tasting it before you even put it in, and you can already taste that sweetness against your tongue and you can feel the special rich texture of it against your tongue as well. You know that texture that really good chocolate has.

        And then there’s that moment, that moment when the first molecule of chocolate touches your tongue and you know it’s inside your mouth and you just want to keep it there because it’s so rich and so good. And there’s that extra special warmth when you swallow that sweetness down.

        Or then maybe, you know like sometimes you meet someone and you’re really attracted to them and you both know it and there’s that moment when your eyes lock, it’s that special look just before you kiss, just before you do it the very first time and you’re trembling with anticipation and your heart is pounding because you’re thinking about how good it’s going to be.

        It’s like every physical moment of that relationship is enfolded/contained or rolled into that first touch of the lips and there’s that excitement, with that first soft contact of the lips where you don’t even know if you are touching or not but then, oh man, it’s like a jolt of electricity all through you.

        (See I think what happens is the conscious mind goes down into the subconscious and brings back up all these thoughts, images, desires and fantasies, and you may think those thoughts are above me, but really I think they’re blow me _____ because you’re coming from a much deeper part and your mine aren’t you?)”

        1. @Ross Jeffries,

          Yeah, that’s great that you’re bashing the creeps in your super creepy industry these days.

          But you make absolute statements – stuff like:

          “… nor have I ever promoted these appearances to my own customers.”

          That’s just a lie and you gloss over it – straw man style. In fact you did promote these appearances to your own customers – published right on your creepy site. Nice spin, Bernays.

          I find liars repugnant.

          And liars that try to pickup “chicks” at raging fires should have their testicles removed.

          Seriously? Why in the world did you not take that “chick at a fire” video down off of YouTube by now? I’ve literally shown that video to over 100 people in the last year and as a result think you’re a total douche. If you think that video is helping, you need to see a “pickup artist” ASAP.

          1. @Mr. GoesInYa, You’re obsessed enough with me to make 100 people watch a video of me?

            I think YOU have the problem.

            And that video was just for shits and giggles. If was obsessed with my public appearance, I would have taken it down.

            I’m not and I didn’t because I have a sense of humor.

            But either you are exaggerating about showing this video to so many people or you are seriously dinged in the head.

            Ask nice and give me your email and I’ll show you some video of my last gf, a smoking hot Dane, 20 years younger than me.

            RJ

            PS, the GF before that is Swedish, 30 years younger and still my best friend. Eat your heart yout.

            1. @Ross Jeffries, oh fuck off! You know what my ex and one my closest friends does…not use me as proof of how awesome he is with random strangers! Oddly enough he views me as a Complete human being with more to offer than just being eye candy on his arm. If he were to show me off in front of anyone it would be because of ( in his own words ) I’m so smart it scares him. And btw, how pathetic are you that the only thing u mention about these women r how much younger they r then u. The only older gentleman I ever dated NEVER broadcasted our age difference. He thought it would be unseemly and make both of look bad if he walked around bragging about our age difference. Go fuck off. Women deserve better than u. And salty’s commenters deserve better than your fucking nonsense.

            2. Dear @Ross Jeffries ::

              Self-deprecating humor would have been a much smarter play than all this “I’m not a scammer” self defensiveness (with nonsense generalizations & hearsay testimoanials).

              For how long you’ve been “reading” this blog, you should have understood that … but here you are egregiously flunking SD-PR-101 {like any true narcissist/psychopath would}.

              Honestly, I wanted to stay out of this.

              I have seen your materials, and trained with some of your {better} trainers. I respect the {sad} fact that you are indeed one of the top “experts” in NLP-Hypnosis today.

              I can definitively say that many of your {unethical} hypno-tactics would definitely work to bamboozle a portion of the population into sexcapades with the hypnotist who correctly implements them. I wouldn’t consider that a worthy goal to be attained :: but “to each their own” I always sez. Which is why I didn’t want to get involved.

              But … @What the what is right ::

              Women deserve [much!] better than u

              And so do desperate men just looking for a way to {pay to learn to} find a nice lady!

              Assuming you aren’t dating children {big assumption in PUA} :: the fact that you had GFs in the not-too-distant past who are ~20-30yrs your junior :: means you are a 50+ single boy trolling shallow relationships with your emotional-maturity-level-equivalents … i.e. — late-teen / early 20’s chicks. {Impressive! //golf-clap//}

              To me, and most other “sane” people who aren’t drinking the PUA kool-aid :: your serial short-term “relationships” aren’t something to brag about … but sad and pathetic indications of your deep-seated psychological issues (probably stemming from early childhood trouble with Females [[[ was it Mommy or the Girls-at-School who hurt you most “@Ross Jeffries”??? ]]] … ).

              If you’d ever grown up & become a Real Man … you would have known that Inner Maturity is the only revenge & cure for the Injuring-Woman-Within™ …

              … and you would have also known that what any Real Man wants is a deep, satisfying, lasting connection with his Equal & Counterpart. You are manifesting [and teaching!] the immature {pathological} Oedipal Boy archetype. And bragging about it. Publicly, under your real-fake name. Smarties®.

              Now since I know you have a stronger brain in that big head of yours than that tiny-charcoal-pebble you pass off for a heart :: respecognize that this is not just idle romanticism with which I serenade you :: but “proven” (tested & repeatable) psychiatric/psychological principle :: for which you can go back read Reich if you have any doubt.

              Maybe instead of teaching guys how to use hypnosis for a shallow fuck with 20-somethings (which they can just buy legally in Nevada for the same $$ {or less!} than the cost of your frauducts) …

              … perhaps it’s time you start focusing all that hypno-energy on how to help Boys become Men (starting with yourself) and consistently achieve full Orgastic Potency with Women they deeply Love. Just a thought.

              You see … at first I thought “this whole @Ross Jeffries ‘Character’ is schtick the guy’s using to run a business & stir controversy” … so, I sez :: “ok, cool, it’s just {mildly offensive} entertainment (not the tip of a fraud-berg)” … which was why I was expecting/{hoping?} for self-deprecation & jokes when you were put on the spot here. But nooooo…

              Your narcissistic tactics make me wonder if the Actor has in fact become the Character (if there ever was any separation in the first place). Perhaps @Ross Jeffries is the “real you” after all…

              In which case :: @Ross Jeffries :: you are a sick & hurtful excuse for a “human being”.

              Seek redemption, grow up, and/or run for cover before you end up with your own SaltyDroid tag/category (assuming the {Targeting} crosshairs aren’t already zeroing in on your {bulbous} melon).

              I seriously didn’t want to have to do it @Ross Jeffries … I didn’t want to play a part destroying your questionable anti-hero status to expose you as pure bad-guy … but you forced my hand. You made me do it.

              I hope you can clear this all up, and stop being such a douche.

              I know you know better (deep down … in your/’re unconscious … mine/d).

              Thank you for your time @Ross Jeffries.

              Sincerely,
              -Doctor Mario

            3. @Doctor Mario :: In paragraph 13 (verbose!) I meant to say ::

              you can go back read Reich.

              Fucked up hyperlink.

        2. @Mad Max, yea thats really disturbing and he thinks it’s a way to pick up women. Maybe a hooker would respond after he paid her twice the usual amount, because even hookers have standards when it comes to Ross Jeffries lol

          It does not matter what Ross Jeffries tries to say on this blog, I for one don’t trust him one bit. I wouldn’t trust him to tell me what time it was.

          Ross Jeffries is like a German cockroach, hard to get rid of, disgusting little parasite that tries to lays it’s disgusting eggs everywhere.

          1. @, Oh yeah?

            What would you consider as acceptable “proof”? Any video or pics I posted you’d dismiss as being actresses or models I hired.

            The fact is, your position is not intelligently held, because there is no “evidence” that you would even, in theory, accept to contradict it.

            So..what would you require?

            And what proof would any of you require that my stuff really does and really has worked for my customers? Is this enough:

            http://www.seduction.com/wallofproof.php

            Are you seriously(seriously) going to claim that every single guy on these videos is an actor? That the over 30 pages of written testimonials on the PDF are fake?

            The guy with no arms and no legs is getting laid. Using my material.

            Open your eyes…..and stop bleating like sheep. I’m real. My work is real.

            1. @Ross Jeffries,

              Sure, I’ll buy that none of those guys are actors and all your testimonials are real – ’cause it would be foolish to violate FTC guidelines. But guys embellish, exaggerate and outright fabricate stories about their sexual exploits all the time. Do you expect me to believe they somehow turn off that habit? In front of a camera? In front of their guru? In front of a room full of other dudes?

          1. @Ross Jeffries,

            Lana, guys don’t want their names publicly associated with this stuff precisely because of the ridicule and shame they’d be exposed to.

            For them to both come on camera AND give me written permission to use their video appearance is a big deal. Here is why; It’s risking that people they know, work with, love etc will see it and ridicule them.

            Yet they take the chance ANYWAY and give me permission ANYWAY. That’s genuine gratitude and that comes from getting real results.

            This isn’t like a “I made a million bucks with x,y,z”. There’s no shame in getting rich-in this country it’s something to brag about and win praise for it at the same time.

            Jason’s a lawyer. I assume(but he could be wrong) that he’s done civil litigation and taken depositions. He can get a good idea when people are giving their honest and as accurate as possible testimony. Let him judge.

            I’ve also done some interesting work with some of these guys and you can visibly see the difference in how well they can approach women.

            Depending on how far this goes, I will ask some of these people to talk directly to Jason. He can interrogate them to his heart’s content.

            This stuff W-O-R-K-S. You may find it disgusting and my marketing vile. You may think it ought not to be taught and the people who use it are horrible.

            I don’t think any such thing because I understand what is at the heart of it.

            And finally….as far as i can see, none of my “competitors” has anything like this. At best they have seminar reviews, with guys saying, “Wow, this was great. I really learned a lot”. Or they have anonymous written testimonials with initials only or no city/no state etc. (One guy even used to claim his method was “Dr. Approved”. When I checked the name of that Dr. in the city and state used, I could find no such Dr. on the public records).

            RJ

            1. @Ross Jeffries,

              Actually, what I was getting at is that it’s exactly like, “I made a million bucks with x,y,z.” There’s no shame in getting rich, but there’s shame in not getting rich. There’s shame in not getting laid. People lie about both to hide their shame.

              Even if guys are telling the truth about the margin of improvement they saw based on your seminar, they probably started off telling the other guys an inflated baseline. “I just want to up my game.” “I’m getting laid pretty often, but I want it to be easier.” When really, the last time the guy saw a vagina was when he was born.

              (Do you collect anonymous baseline surveys at the start of each seminar? Have you compared the baselines reported anonymously with the baselines the guys talk about in front of each other?)

              In PUA and MMO, you’re gonna have inflated results claims because people – especially guys – are taught to exaggerate their income and their sexual conquests. You’re rich. I’m rich. You’re getting laid. I’m getting laid. And our viewers at home can now too!

  20. Apologies for the spelling errors, but that’s what you get when you’re pissed off.

    1. @Jack, So now the venerable Chicago Tribune has sunk to just blindly publishing press releases.

      Talk about not doing your due diligence. Wow. I guess that confirms what so many people think: real journalism is a thing of the past.

      When SD first posted about Anthony Morrison, I (a non journalist) easily tracked down enough of his earliest complaints and background dirt to convince me his “auto parts business” success backstory was grossly exaggerated. Or would the phrase, “Lying through his ass” convey that better?

      Thanks, Jen. You make a fantastic patsy, and Gutenberg wants his press back.

      In case anyone wants send Jen a link to the Verge article, and tip her off to the existence of Google:

      jweigel@tribune.com

      1. @Carl, I made the template for people:

        Dear Jen,

        You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

        Sincerely,

        [Your Name]

    2. @Jack, @Carl: OTOH, that piece is dated June 28,2011, long before The Verge piece came out, and even slightly before Anthony began getting the Droid treatment in earnest. But still.

        1. @Jack, Yes, good point. I wasn’t trying to let the Tribune off the hook, just noting that the article in question is not a new one. Even so, contacting Ms. Weigel isn’t a half-bad idea. Maybe she’ll do a followup.

            1. @Jack ::

              Plus she’s got her very own book :: “I’m Spiritual Dammit” … prolly being “spiritual dammit” is what keeps her from doing her due dilligence … dammit.

  21. If you are someone looking for cool scams, you haven’t seen this one yet..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XPmNdVnRtk

    Apparently, ponzi schemes are LEGAL in Russia. And are blooming like completely legitimate “business” opportutities.. full fledged Ponzi schemes.. with Mavrodi as the father of Russian scam.

    This guy has it all. In mid 90s his scheme grew so big (first MMM) that once he was finally arrested, the government had to transport the cash in trucks out of his premises.. several huge trucks in fact.

    Don’t go worldwide Salty.. stick to the US scams.. but for anyone else who is interested.. WOW.

  22. @Doctor Mario,

    You said,

    “I can definitively say that many of your {unethical} hypno-tactics would definitely work to bamboozle a portion of the population into sexcapades with the hypnotist who correctly implements them. I wouldn’t consider that a worthy goal to be attained :: but “to each their own” I always sez. Which is why I didn’t want to get involved.”

    Wait a minute. You just said that many of my “tactics” would definitely work.

    Your statement is NOT that they are fraudulent but that you, personally, don’t consider it a worthy goal(that’s your opinion, fine) and that you consider it (bamboozling) of the women concerned.

    Fine, that’s your OPINION.

    But if I deliver what I promise, then it’s not fraud. It’s just something that disgusts you.

    To which I say, “So what?”

    “Ross Jeffries Disgusting Teaching Gets Sick Men Laid” Says Expert Psychologist” would be a fantastic headline; it is a TRUE reflection of your opinion.

    Can I use that?

    You also miss that 50% of what I teach is about guys overcoming shyness, approach anxiety and the self-defeating rumination that keeps them from actually practicing skill. Now how is that in any way a “bad” thing?

    This is fun..but I have work to do.

    RJ

    1. @Ross Jeffries :: I mostly agree with what you’ve said above, and the fact that …

      50% of what I teach is about guys overcoming shyness, approach anxiety and the self-defeating rumination that keeps them from actually practicing skill

      … is precisely why I didn’t want to get involved.

      In spite of the fact that you are obviously a very gross person teaching other people how to mimic your gross ways … this is not exactly my issue. I dig that it’s your schtick, and understand that your unconventional, controversy-stirring, mildly offensive marketing indeed works (earning your undeniable place on the PUA totem pole — congrats!).

      I thought you had work to do, but I see you’ve posted a much longer @Response to me below, so I will respond to that one in more detail (since I am on vacation and don’t have work to do). Scroll down.

      1. @Doctor Mario,

        I do have work to do so I won’t be able to read, much less respond to what you say for at least a few days, and then I’m traveling for 4 days.

        Just consider the possibility that some of your own most closely held ideas may need to be re-evaluated. Maybe they aren’t “true” with a capital “T” but just your way of understanding how things work. Maybe there are other ways. Maybe you’ve been socially influenced to believe what you believe and that it is disguised opinion, speculation or even some what accurate “guessing” that has been covered with the trappings of science and “TRUTH” but really isn’t “TRUE”.

        And I strongly urge you to read some of the work of Robert Anton Wilson. Maybe you will see that what you define as “TRUE” is cultural programming. If it gives you meaning and purpose to speculate or believe in “The Real Man” then go for it. But it isn’t “TRUE” or science.

        Again:: I don’t propose that what I teach is science, so you readers, spare the remarks. I just say it’s a pretty accurate description of how things work and it gets results as predicted. There may be better ways to do things and my understanding of the underlying mechanisms may be totally wrong, although I doubt that. For sure, my understandings are incomplete.

        I’m sure you’d agree that a real dialog requires both parties examine their own ideas. Do you have the willingness to do that?

        If you want to take this to private email, I’m ross@seduction.com

        Cheers.

        RJ

  23. @Doctor Mario opined thusly:

    “If you’d ever grown up & become a Real Man … you would have known that Inner Maturity is the only revenge & cure for the Injuring-Woman-Within™ …”

    Really? There is a psychologically, clinically proven definition of a “Real Man” backed up by scientific research?

    You are claiming the scientific high ground here, not me; I never said my stuff was science. I merely said it worked.

    And wow:: “Inner Maturity” is also a scientifically proven concept? Or is it David Deida you are quoting?

    “….and you would have also known that what any Real Man wants is a deep, satisfying, lasting connection with his Equal & Counterpart”

    Really? So all the research on polyamory and polyamorous societies is all bunk? Because of some ideal that you are blabbering about? Based on what? The Bible?

    I could quote you “Christian marriage counselors” who would say that the “Real Man” is one who desires a lasting connection based on his ruling over his wife as Christ rules the Church. There is no more proof or validity in your tautological concept than there is for the Christian one.

    It’s your idealizing based on something you have swallowed down. To which I say, “So what?”

    You may state it articulately:; no doubt you do so:: but it doesn’t make it true. Does it?

    “You are manifesting [and teaching!] the immature {pathological} Oedipal Boy archetype”

    Based on what? And now there really is such a thing as an “archetype”? Really?

    Not only are you confusing Freud with Jung(Freud talked about Oedipal complexes) you are missing the larger point that these are just conceptual ways of understanding with no actual proof they exist or are even accurate.

    Again:: you are taking the scientific high-ground. I’m not claiming what I do is science. I just say it works as I predict it does. .

    “Now since I know you have a stronger brain in that big head of yours than that tiny-charcoal-pebble you pass off for a heart :: respecognize that this is not just idle romanticism with which I serenade you :: but “proven” (tested & repeatable) psychiatric/psychological principle :: for which you can go back read Reich if you have any doubt.”

    Actually, it isn’t “proven”. There is actually zero clinical proof that psychoanalysis is any more effective than talking to a friend or the person just gradually getting better on their own. Sorry, but you are all wet, scientifically.

    The ONLY proven clinical therapies, so far, are:

    1. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)

    2. EMDR (for post traumatic stress)

    3. Some(SOME) forms of Clinical Hypnotherapy.

    Reich is an interesting author, but his theories are not scientifically held because they are not subject to any experiment that could prove or disprove them. They are concepts that seek to explain but they aren’t verifiable in any way.

    Do you really think there is a “thing” inside you called an “Id” or an “Ego” that exists as an actual structure in the psyche?

    Maybe you need to examine just how much your ideas are a product for your own cultural programming and brainwashing.

    Their are plenty of cultures and societies that would just as strongly argue for equally non-veridical concepts such as polyamory, polygamy, even:: blush blush-homosexuality.

    (In your view, homosexuals would be deviant and sick because they are not “Real Men”. Do you think they need to be cured? )

    And just so you know: I’ve read Reich. In fact, I read him when I was 17. Nice and poetic.

    Have you read Szaz and the “Myth of Mental Illness”? How about Stan Grof and “Beyond The Brain”.

    If you want to challenge me on this topic, be prepared:: I know this stuff well.

    Finally:: I think my work is not conventional, to be sure. But the aim of it, once you get past the over-the-top marketing, is to give guys the ability to create attraction and desire with SOME kind of consistency, rather than rely on traditional dating. What they do with that varies wildly: some want to go through women like tissue paper. Others want to be able to attract lots of women so they can learn by experience what they like and what they value. Some want to get married or find “true love”. Some times they jump around all of these.

    Fact remains: what I teach is, as far as I can see, the only workable alternative to conventional “dating” that guys who don’t have looks, money or great natural social skill, can turn to. I think it’s a good thing.

    Look a bit closer than your reactions to my disgusting marketing(which IS designed, like a turd in a punch bowl) to get attention. And look deeper than what you THINK it is about. Talk to the guys who use it. Get a feel for them.

    This really ISN’T what you think it is.

    As for your “diagnosis” of me; it’s ludicrous.

    Now:: i can use the:: too to punctuate my points. And maybe you are even Jason himself. Even better:: look closer and pause. Maybe you are making assumptions about my work that aren’t true.

    RJ

    PS You are massively mischaracterizing my work to say it is about “hypnotizing” women. I strongly suggest you look again at what you think “hypnosis”: is. My larger point is that most of the processes that move people to be attracted take place outside of conscious awareness, with a structure and a process, and to that extent, they ARE hypnotic anyway.

    I’m not teaching people to put someone in a trance and then have their way with them. I’m pointing my finger at a “moon” of response and you are looking at the dirty-finger nail of my marketing. Look deeper…..deeper..EVEN DEEPER and you will find something else that is BETTER::BETTER::BETTER.

    Check out this book: Monsters And Magical Sticks: There’s No Such Thing As Hypnosis, if for no other reason that to see a radically different idea about hypnosis than the one you currently hold. It was one of the deep influences on my work and remains so to this day. It’s a great read.

    1. @Ross Jeffries,

      Correction to my statements about clinically proven therapies: there is mounting evidence that Mindfulness based therapies are very effective at stress reduction and treating depression. Oops.

    2. @Ross Jeffries, a lot of people come to this site because they’ve been taken in by scammers using deceptive tactics to market dogcrap. In case you didn’t know, that makes people angry. It also makes them suspicious. That is a good thing because it shows we have learned from our mistakes. Your long detailed arguments about why your PUA products are the best shit since the birth of humanity… well maybe you’re products are not as crappy as they seem and maybe you’re not as slimy as you sound, but you’re in an anti-scam site for crying out loud, and people don’t trust you. Your “it’s you (your social conditioning, yada yada), not me” line is one we’ve heard way too many times to take seriously. You make nice arguments here… but they are so completely fucking irrelevant.

    3. @Ross Jeffries :: You are obviously a very intelligent guy, perhaps less evil than the average scammers found here, and whether or not I agree with what you do, it could be a lot worse (i.e. Mystery Method, RSD, David DeAngelo, etc).

      Which is why I said I really didn’t want to get involved here :: as this argument is largely subjective & off-topic (so this is my last public response) … however …

      I find it indicative of how much you feel your shaky “secret citadel” is under attack, when you accuse me of:

      how much [my] ideas are a product for [my] own cultural programming and brainwashing.

      … then proceed to blatantly (and garrulously) misconstrue nearly everything I said in your rebuttals.

      {PUA/Hypno/NLP} Cultural Brainwashing anyone?

      First :: on my “defining” a “Real Man” … I thought you would notice the sarcasm when I used Title Caps, and even a Hyphenated-Fake-Trademark™ … yet you twist my words as if I was claiming a “scientific” basis for my tongue-in-cheekiness.

      In fact, I never once used the term “science” or “scientifically” … and the closest thing I said was that something was:

      “proven” [in quotes!] (tested & repeatable) psychiatric/psychological principle.

      In other words, some guys with decades of education have conducted long-term therapies with thousands of patients, plus “research” & “studies” among an even greater number, to ultimately identify certain “psychological” trends/phenomena that appear to be nearly universal.

      Archetypes are one such example, that (with minor differences) actually transcend cultural & linguistic barriers. I never said they “exist” nor did I opine they (or anything else I mentioned) are “scientifically” proven.

      Regarding my assertion that:

      what any Real Man wants is a deep, satisfying, lasting connection with his Equal & Counterpart.

      … I find it interesting that you assume this to mean “Old Fashioned” Monogamy.

      Polyamory/polygamy/serial monogomy/homosexuality/bestiality?/etc are in no way contradictory to this assertion, which I carefully considered when writing it. The only thing I would change is to say “Counterpart(s)” to eliminate this potential confusion.

      I don’t give a fuck who (or what) one chooses as “Counterpart(s)” to form deep, satisfying, lasting connection(s) … the key was the “deep, satisfying, lasting” (and “Equal“*) parts.

      All those anti-poly/anti-homo biases were your own projections, not inherent in what I said.

      I’ve read Szaz & Grof (and Freud & Jung — a lot!), and am not challenging you on these topics. But … since you being 17 was >30 (>40?) years ago, maybe it’s time for a re-read of Reich … who was poetic to be sure, but also close to the mark when it comes to why one pursues “romantic” relations in the first place (imo only :: cuz obviously it’s debatable).

      Here’s My Real Problem, @Ross Jeffries

      You are disproportionately using your “knowledge”, wis{dumb}, and Authority to popularize, promote, and teach what are ultimately hurtful and misleading world-views. Namely, that women are supplicant sex objects, to be evaluated on their appearances and manipulated to the whim & fancy of any man with the appropriate skill-set (which you are selling).

      Then you participate here :: scammer-style :: defending yourself with generalized blanket statements, a hearsay out-of-context testimoanial, and middle-school braggadocio regarding your own sexual conquests. SD-PR-101 :: Epic Fail.

      Still, my problem is not that you are gross / using skeezy marketing. It’s not that you are using hyper-exaggerated testosteronimoanials (as @Lanna suggested). It’s not even that what you do doesn’t work.

      Au contraire, it’s that I know for sure that what you do DOES work … to transform shy / self-doubting guys into frauds & scammers of “Love” (and/or sex) — consciously manipulating women into bed (or worse)**!

      My problem is that you are giving men powerful :: {potentially very dangerous} tools :: without proper context & psychological support structures … like giving loaded guns to raving psychos or zip-ties & ball-gags to horny rapists.

      Just as the IM-Syndicate sells tools to turn the Average-Joe into an “expert” of Making-Money-Online {and you can too!} … your tools are turning man-boys with self confidence and/or social issues into glamorized Womanizers & shallow-Hals.

      You are sewing the seeds of pain & suffering (promulgating the Mass Psychology of Fascism), both in the men (boys?) you teach & in the women they “Speed Seduce”.

      I’m not saying “Don’t do what you do” or “@Ross Jeffries is a scammer” … I don’t know enough about your business(es) to definitively say that (nor do I care to — unless @SD does the work for me & spills the beans).

      All I’m saying is :: be careful what you wish for (and what you “teach” others to wish for) :: because you might just end up old, alone, and full of regret … reaping the “karma” of teaching others to end up the same.

      Welcome to PUA! ( … an epidemic to which we owe you significant credit for spawning in the first place … thanks @RJ).

      Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to genuinely consider & reflect on the rants I wrote.

      You can respond here to get the last word, but I think any further debate is more appropriate for email (as you suggested) … Frankly, tho, this is all I really wanted to say newayz.

      Sincerely,
      -Doctor Mario

      PS – Hypnosis (to me) means the bypass of the critical factor & establishment of specific selective thinking / belief(s). You are a liar if you are saying what you do is in any way not hypnosis … and you and I both know that. Someone does not have to be in a deep “somnambulistic” trance to be hypnotized, of which you are obviously well aware …

      * Hyperlink added since you say you like R.A.W.

      ** Perhaps your “students” actually do want to be loveless sexual manipulators, in which case your methods are spot-on, and if you were to add the disclaimer “Warning: Is likely to turn you into shallow a womanizer successfully trolling from one short-term relationship to another…” I would happily stfu.

      1. @Doctor Mario,

        ** Perhaps your “students” actually do want to be loveless sexual manipulators, in which case your methods are spot-on, and if you were to add the disclaimer “Warning: Is likely to turn you into shallow a womanizer successfully trolling from one short-term relationship to another…” I would happily stfu.****

        This is your bizarre and inaccurate portrayal of what I teach. What an extreme straw-man you are setting up. Either someone wants a monogamous, committed, long-term relationship or they are loveless sexual manipulators.

        Ridiculous. People can and do enjoy loving on many levels to many degrees. To hold as worthless anything other than some romantic ideal is creating a cruel expectation that is failing 50% of the time in the Western World.

        Ultimately, many of my students fall in love. Some of that lasts, some doesn’t. I’ve been in love with my last two girlfriends, and still deeply and profoundly love my ex, ex girlfriend who remains my best friend to this day. She knew full well what I did for a living when I met(as did the most recent one) and found it intriguing. To this day I love her as much as anyone I know and would do anything for her.

        So your assumptions that guys who don’t want to rely on looks, money, status or anything else that traditional dating requires to be truly at choice with women are well off base.

        Your assumption that men who have choice with women will always choose to use it destructively also bespeaks an inaccurate and twisted view of men.

        I believe and see that most men will use the power to create attraction responsibly. And in fact, people only usually cheat in the presence of scarcity. When men meet a woman who they choose to be with-not because by default someone is accidentally attracted to them-it is precisely when they can and do honestly commit.

        RJ

        1. @Ross Jeffries ::

          What an extreme straw-man you are setting up. Either someone wants a monogamous, committed, long-term relationship or they are loveless sexual manipulators.

          Speaking of straw-men! When did I ever say anything like “someone wants a monogamous, committed, long-term relationship or they are loveless sexual manipulators”???

          I said people who use hypnosis & mind-tricks on women (based on their physical appearances) to tally up their “Lays” is a loveless sexual manipulator.

  24. @Doctor Mario said:

    “In other words, some guys with decades of education have conducted long-term therapies with thousands of patients, plus “research” & “studies” among an even greater number, to ultimately identify certain “psychological” trends/phenomena that appear to be nearly universal.”

    But they aren’t universal. That’s just my point: there are polyamorous societies that would laugh at the notion of one partner for life with whom you find some kind of ultimate bond.

    Look; what you are talking about is essentially a romantic myth. Do the reading; “romantic love” is a modern Western notion. To be sure, people are programmed to form pair bonds. It can be deeply fulfilling(and also the source of a lot of craving and unconsciousness and aversion).

    But to hold it up as some objective ideal is well…Objectivist. Ayn Rand would approve of it.

    As for the rest of what you say about my work: you are just plain incorrect and vastly inaccurate. It makes me think you’ve never actually studied any of it.

    If you want to see what I am currently, actually teaching, email me privately. ross@seduction.com

    I’ll give you a log in link and you can peruse to your heart’s content.

    It’s NOTHING like what you think it is.

    I’m teaching something profoundly different than what you think.

    It is certainly counter to the traditional dating frame where people spend money on third party entertainment in a crap shoot effort to connect. But non-traditional doesn’t make it harmful or wrong.

    And your beyond way off about what I mean by “hypnotic”.

    One last thing I will point out: contrary to everyone else on this blog, Jason included, you are saying I am NOT a fraud and that my material DOES work. You may postulate it’s harmful or wrong but I am not defrauding my customers and am delivering what they are paying for.

    That puts you at odds with everyone else and I wonder what they think about that.

    Again..let’s take it private.

    RJ

    P.S. I just met up with a 31 year old student who I worked with last month. He came to me painfully shy, unable to talk to women. I worked with him 30 minutes. His fear is gone completely and he’s had 3 dates since he first saw me. He’s a changed person. I broke his shyness and his anxiety. He’s willing to talk to you or anyone else who will listen. I’ve got lots more of these.

    Now..what could be wrong with this? Assuming I’m being truthful-and I’m offering to prove that I am-no one else in my “niche” can do this or even claims to be able to. Should I just leave these guys stuck in fear? How is that helping?

    This guy is looking to get married and have a family. Now he has a fighting chance. I’m not saying that’s any more valuable than someone who wants to get laid a lot or someone who sees he needs lots of experience to tell who is the right partner. That’s your judgment, not mine.

    1. @Ross Jeffries :: This …

      I just met up with a 31 year old student who I worked with last month. He came to me painfully shy, unable to talk to women. I worked with him 30 minutes. His fear is gone completely and he’s had 3 dates since he first saw me. He’s a changed person.

      … is why I didn’t want to start this debate. I know you can do this. Anyone who doesn’t totally suck at hypnosis can do this (myself included). I think this part of your work is acceptable, and does more good than harm.

      The rest of your counter-arguments were just a bunch of Straw-men (of which you accused me of using). Plus, you didn’t once contradict my main point :: that what you teach is a hurtful & misleading worldview.

      Remember when I said:

      Polyamory/polygamy/serial monogomy/homosexuality/bestiality?/etc are in no way contradictory to [my that assertion that “Real Men” are hard-wired to pursue deep, satisfying, lasting connections with their Equal* Counterpart(s)]

      Remember how you then went on a rant like my whole argument was based on the fact that your teachings are in opposition to Western Monogamist Romantic Love & “traditional” dating?

      That wasn’t my point. My point was and still is:

      Using learned “tricks” … especially those designed to access someone’s subconscious/unconscious mind … with the intention of manipulating that person (into bed / into a relationship / into any premeditated outcome) … is immoral, unconscionable, and ultimately hurtful to all parties involved.

      It is a power imbalance, meaning the two (or more) parties involved are NOT “Equals” (as per Celine’s 2nd law, see the link) … and therefore cannot conduct accurate communication between one another.

      This is just my opinion (based on my personal experience, for which I have no proof to back it up). You can say, believe, and teach whatever you want.

      -Doctor Mario

      PS :: I like your spin-games how you say:

      contrary to everyone else on this blog, Jason included, you are saying I am NOT a fraud and that my material DOES work… That puts you at odds with everyone else and I wonder what they think about that.

      Clearly, everyone is really pissed at me, judging by how my comments are glowing yellow and say “WINNER!!” at the bottom, while yours are “Hidden due to low comment rating.”

      FWIW, I never said explicitly you are NOT a fraud, I said:

      I know for sure that what you do DOES work … to transform shy / self-doubting guys into frauds & scammers of “Love” (and/or sex) — consciously manipulating women into bed (or worse)

      But hey, call it how you see it @RJ.

    2. @Ross Jeffries,

      Mr Jeffries, I have bitten my lip so much reading your posts that I’m afraid I might have a permanent bruise. I have bitten my lip, as I’m afraid many people have, for fear that I might turn away a potential ally that the Droid rightfully deserves in his fight against these online scammers and the very real harm they inflict on their audience. But I’m afraid, in doing so, I have done a grave disservice to anyone who might be reading this thinking that there is some legitimacy to your position and your dubious services.

      Mr Jeffries – and I’m sorry, we aren’t friends, nor are we ever likely to be, so I will be referring to you as politely as I can bring myself to, having been raised in the South and believing that, above all else, even someone who makes you want to hold your nose in distaste should be treated with respect, regardless of how he treats others – Mr Jeffries, you sir are vile, disgusting, and barely worthy of notice save for the level of damage you cause.

      You perpetuate the misinformed, self-centered ideal of rape culture. You teach young men who might otherwise turn to legitimate counseling (who would benefit from professional help to overcome their problems) to effectively mesmerize their potential “targets” – and make no mistake, at no time have I seen you refer to the women your “students” target as anything other than acquisitions, despite your PR ramblings above – into losing their ability to make informed, consensual decisions. You equip these men to dazzle, to obfuscate, to put themselves in a dominant position that takes power away from a section of the population that already lacks power to say “no”.

      Mr Jeffries, you have never known what it is to be truly powerless. To the best of my knowledge, you have never yourself been the target of rape. You have never had to carry your keys gripped between two of your fingers as a makeshift weapon on the off chance that the man who cat-called at you in the parking lot is going to follow you to your car.

      When you pass a group of men on the street, Mr Jeffries, I imagine your main concern is for your wallet. When we walk down the street – and by “we”, I mean women – the eventual targets of your seduction scam – when we see a group of men standing around and then their eyes turn to us, we wonder what they’re going to do to us. We wonder if we’re going to be dragged down an alley and beaten and have our ability to give “informed consent” forcibly removed from us.

      Mr Jeffries, when you’re in a public restaurant, or bar, and someone offers to buy you a drink, you’re wondering if you’re going to “get lucky”. We – we women, Mr Jeffries, the targets of your “students” – we’re wondering how to react; we’re wondering if accepting the drink is an invitation to be raped. We’re wondering if rejecting the drink is going to get us raped anyway. We’re wondering if the drink is spiked with something that’s going to remove our informed consent.

      We travel in groups not to frustrate romantic intentions of well-meaning men, but to protect ourselves when those otherwise harmless-seeming romantic intentions turn dangerous, when our fears are disregarded and our concerns ignored. We travel in groups because to not do so invites unwelcome attention and we have learned – as a sex, as a group – that to do otherwise makes life infinitely more dangerous.

      Mr Jeffries, I doubt you have to double-check what you’re wearing before you leave the house to make sure that it’s not “evocative” because you live in a society that seeks to blame the victim for being provocative, for “leading” a man on. At most, you probably make sure your tie -if you wear one – doesn’t clash with your shirt or your slacks. You slip your wallet in your back pocket and go out the door without worrying that your pants are easily removed or that your buttons can be ripped from your shirt and your chest exposed by use of someone’s keys, or a knife, or hands that are that much stronger than yours because the male body just is that much stronger than a woman’s.

      When you walk out of your home, you probably don’t look each way and underneath your car and into your back seat to ensure your own safety. You likely don’t wonder if the man down on the corner is doing a double-take because he thinks he might know you or if he’s taking note of your schedule. You likely don’t have to be that paranoid to protect yourself.

      Mr Jeffries, I highly doubt you’ve ever slipped a knife inside your jacket lining to walk across college campus because you’ve been invited to dinner by a friend of a friend, and you don’t know if he’ll take “no” for an answer. I doubt you’ve ever made sure to wear tennis shoes because you might have to run away. I doubt you’ve ever made sure that you look unappealing as possible because someone just won’t take the hint.

      I could give so many more examples, Mr Jeffries. I could give them because I’ve lived them, or I could give them because my friends have. I could give you a veritable tome of life experience, and I don’t think you’d understand it because you’ve never had to. The worst you’ve dealt with is rejection; but have you ever dealt with having your mind, body, all of you violated in the worst possible way by someone you trust? I’m not talking about a break-up, Mr Jeffries; I’m talking about something much worse – I’m talking about being in a relationship that you’re too scared to leave because your partner has too much power over you.

      Mr Jeffries, you continue to maintain the position that you’re doing a “good thing”. That you’re helping otherwise clueless men find love, or the physical equivalent of it, because of your teaching. But what you’re doing, sir, is teaching men that they don’t have to take “no” for an answer the first time it’s given. You’re teaching that it’s ok to push, that it’s ok to ignore a woman’s boundaries because what she wants in a social situation isn’t as important as what your student wants. That “seduction” is all about getting your needs met at any cost.

      I’m sure you have disclaimers in your programs that make you feel better about it at the end of the day, but all you’re doing, Mr Jeffries, is perpetuating rape culture. It’s a culture that women have to fight every time they go out the door, and it’s nothing you will probably ever know anything about unless, of course, you’re faced with prison time.

      You say you aren’t a scammer because your program “works”. But at what cost, I wonder? You are ultimately hurting everyone with what you do, whether you realize it or not, and when I pray tonight, I’m going to pray that you develop a conscience. It’s a long shot, given what you’ve typed above, but I do believe in miracles.

      Until you do, however, I intend to ignore anything else you say on this site as a matter of principle and my own mental well-being. I’d be willing to bet the other women here feel the same way, and the majority of the intelligent married/attached men here do as well. I’m just guessing of course, but I’ve seen the chord you strike here, and it’s overwhelmingly negative.

      No, Mr Jeffries, you are not a scammer, not in the typically defined way.

      What you are is much, much worse IMHO.

      1. @Alison, I have been wanting to say what you said for a LONG time but you have put it more eloquently and persuasively than I ever could. And I was all set to give your comment a “sweet” rating, but I saw that the other person at my IP address — that would be Ron Kaye — has apparently already done it, and we only get one vote per address. Fair enough. But if I could go to every available computer in my area and give your comment a thumbs-up I would. Actually, there aren’t enough computers in the world to express how much I agree with you about the nature of Ross Jeffries’ body of work.

        In the past I have had discussions with someone else who at the time was active in the PUA racket, and who put forth the exact same arguments that Ross has given us in defense of his own work. He told me his seduction lessons really made a difference in men’s lives, and that tons of well-intentioned, goodhearted guys used the seduction/pickup teachings only so they could learn to relate to women as human beings, and finally find the deep and fulfilling relationships for which they’d always yearned.

        He also insinuated that I was being too judgmental and narrow-minded and that I was not seeing the possible emotional and spiritual aspects of the PUA work. I was told that even those who were just out for as many one-night stands as possible might have some spiritual motivation, so perhaps I should look at myself and figure out why I was being so judgmental.

        So I did open my mind and I tried to seriously consider the possibility that this person might have a point and that I was just jumping to conclusions.

        But everything he wrote and said in relation to his PUA stuff just reeked of predator and exploiter to me. Try as I might — and I really did try — I couldn’t shake the icky feeling it gave me. In the end we had to agree to disagree with his assessment of what he was trying to accomplish.

        As far as I’m concerned — and this may be unfair, but there you have it — everything one needs to know about Ross Jeffries’ attitude towards women can be summed up in that lame fire video that “Dick GoesInYa” linked to above. I first saw that thing last year and it really annoyed me — even more so after the wildfire scares we had here in Texas last fall.

        So again, Alison: Nice work.

      2. @Alison,

        Trivializing a violent crime to score rhetorical points is disgusting, if you ask me.

        What you don’t get is that healthy women WANT to be seduced. They want to feel their imaginations, emotions and bodies on fire with desire.

        That’s all I’m doing. If you think men having the power to do that without having to be good looking or famous or rich, is some kind of inherently evil thing, then it’s a comment on YOUR issues with men.

        Go back to biting your lips; they are spreading disinformation and lies.

        RJ

        1. @Ross Jeffries,

          Mr Jeffries, if you think for one moment, as a survivor of rape, that I would seek to trivialize the brutality and scars that it leaves by using it “rhetorically” then you are even more delusional about the harm you cause than even I have believed you to be so far. The only rhetoric involved in our current back-and-forth are your claims that you help people when your profit margin is based on turning “shy men” into douchebags who seek to bed women regardless of their expressed desires.

          Of course women want to be wooed, but that’s a far cry from what you consider “seduction”. I don’t want a man to pressure me into his bed or use manipulation to get me there; what I want is someone to value me for what I hold dear, for who I am, for what I am and not what lies between my legs. The “seduction” comes about from deeply knowing another person; not in a lecture-taught spiel delivered by a man whose latest claim to fame is that he’s with a woman who is 20 years his junior. That alone speaks volumes to how you feel about relationships; your first, knee-jerk reaction was to prove your own virility by pointing out your partner’s age rather than her intellect or any of the other myriad ways you could have shown her value. You picked her age, the most arbitrarily unimportant feature of any relationship.

          Similarly, your knee-jerk reaction to me was to accuse me of rhetoric and of manipulating (HA!) public opinion against you by referring to rape culture.

          You have yet to show any reason for anyone here to believe that what you do is legitimately helpful; what you do is manipulate, and teach others to do the same.

          Have I said anything to indicate that I don’t think men are valuable if they aren’t Hollywood-standard gorgeous? Have you seen pictures of my husband? I don’t mean to be rude, but he wasn’t Hollywood standard, and I wasn’t attracted to him because of his looks. I was attracted to him because of his heart, which I discovered after *choosing* to engage in conversation with him after he chanced to sit beside me in class one day. My choice – my informed consent to engage in a relationship not based on manipulation.

          Your barely disguised disgust for women shines through in your response to me, Mr Jeffries. I don’t think anyone here, reading what you said to me, is in any doubt of the esteem you hold us in. A “healthy” woman, according to you, seeks pleasure in the same way a man does, she wants to be “seduced” – which, according to you, is perfectly acceptable via manipulation and false personality.

          While I have no doubt you know your audience, Mr Jeffries, you clearly know nothing about women. I’ve seen what you’ve said about us here, and it leaves no doubt in my mind that you are worthy of every bit of contempt I see foisted off on you in the circles I frequent.

          I hope one day you DO understand what women go through; that you get a clue when it comes to rape culture and the damning way you’re perpetuating it. If you’d like to become informed or educated, I have several volumes of helpful books I could recommend.

        2. @Ross Jeffries, Holy shit! Seriously? I don’t think you read or understood @Alison’s comment. But I am glad you had the “courage” to 1. presume she doesn’t know what she REALLY wants, 2. presume to know what women REALLY want, 3 presume to know that her experience doesn’t lend credibility to her opinions.

          You are right on one thing “trivializing a violent crime to score rhetorical points IS disgusting”. But see, @Alison didn’t do that…so my question is: is it more or less disgusting to pretend that someone trivialized a violent crime to score rhetorical points…in order to score rhetorical points? I’m kinda leaning toward more disgusting but I’ve learned now that I need to wait for you to tell me what I REALLY want. I’ll check back here to find out what my opinion is supposed to be on that.

          Also, I really enjoyed how you said “If you think men having the power to do that [having women feel their imaginations, emotions and bodies on fire with desire”] without having to be good looking or famous or rich, is some kind of inherently evil thing, then it’s a comment on YOUR issues with men.” My favorite part is the fact that…wait for it….she never said anything like that at all! But oh man, it was really great how you took something she never said, argued as if she said it and then insinuated she had some kind of problem with men.

          Well, @Alison, I guess you and I aren’t actually women or we don’t actually know what we want. ( I agree with the statements you made so I guess I don’t know either. ) Isn’t it nice that @Ross Jeffries was here to tell us that our experience and perspective of the world we live in is wrong? Thankfully he is here to tell us what we really want, or what we should want.

          In closing…pleas go away @Ross Jeffries.

        3. @Ross Jeffries,

          Exactly how stupid are you? I can’t believe you wrote that.

          And incidentally, there are plenty of men who comment here, but none of us — apart from you — has ever found any reason to brag on this site about having had sex. But you’ve been doing it repeatedly since you started commenting here.

          That fact alone says a lot about your attitude towards women, and towards sex in general. Of course your attitude to men sucks too, but as you’re incapable of listening to women without immediately lecturing and hectoring them, I won’t waste my breath.

          And by the way, you’re also the only person who has repeatedly blabbered on about sending Droid some info. Everyone else just sends it in and shuts up.

          So — what? Have you sent him all that stuff yet?

        4. Everyone brace yourselves for this very rare moment.

          I was wrong to let Ross Jeffries comment here in peace. In fairness to me :: it was about free speech … and I really had no idea what these PUA types were about {or that they even existed} when I started. But it’s not much of an excuse … so I apologize to everyone for that.

          @Ross Jeffries ::

          “Trivializing a violent crime to score rhetorical points is disgusting, if you ask me.”

          Seriously?

          Congrats on accomplishing something almost no one else on the webz has ever accomplished … making me so fucking mad I had to walk it off before I responded. The other time was when some PR hack was smearing the lovely Ms. Colleen to try and contain the truth about James Ray. Not good company.

          This blog’s sole benefactor :: Jason’s awesome wife … took a moment out of her busy busy day at Chicago’s bestest law firm to tell him to stop all other operations and focus completely on destroying Ross Jeffries. That’s not going to happen because I’m too busy … and you’re too fucking past irrelevant.

          But you are so :: so … so fucking banned. Never say another word to me. You can comment on any posts I may happen to write about you and what a fucking useless piece of shit weasel you are … because to do otherwise would weaken my legal posture … otherwise slither back into whatever asshole you slithered out of.

          PS :: I’m also sorry to everyone that I ended this rant with a preposition … poor form.

          1. @SD,

            Yeah but Ross’ irrelevance shouldn’t absolve him. He’s a sinister creep. He uses hypnotism/NLP and then spends his golden years bragging about how many decades younger his most recent ‘targets’ are.

            I sincerely hope you decide to target him regardless of how old and irrelevant and generally lame he has become – and I’m happy to volunteer my time/energy/frozen burrito stash to help out.

            I’m sick of seeing dickheads like Ross bragging about his ‘conquests’ and then turning around and offering ‘donations’ (bribes) and just generally acting like he’s the fucking Jesus Christ of pick up. It’s bad enough that he thinks what he does is moral and legitimate and not all around creepy, but he’s not even remotely credible in the disgusting and fucked up field of ‘pick up’ that he supposedly invented. He’s been outed by “PUAs” for challenging people to competitions and then always backing out.

            I’m not entirely sure why I hate Ross so much more than the other scammers and PUAs, but if I were to venture a guess it’s because he isn’t just a scammer and a total creep – he’s a complete coward. He’s the old guy who isn’t fun to be around and so he tries to sell out all of his friends to make himself look innocent.

            Dear Ross Jeffries, if you build your entire career on being sleazy at least have the integrity to own up to what you are instead of pretending you’re this knight in shining armor teaching nerdy kids how to seduce beautiful women.

            I know, I know, you can’t reply because you were banned. Hopefully Salty will write about you someday and you can come back and defend your piece of shit career.

            1. @Peter ::

              Yeah … I am going to do it. This shall not stand. I’m gonna cut some of these comments here into it … so who else has got something to say on this matter? Ladies?

              Speak up :: it’s a good topic … and it’s not “off topic” on this post since this post has no topic other than Kim forgetting to not be fucking kidding me.

          2. @SD,

            I also didn’t know about PUA before coming here.

            Again, as with MMO, I didn’t see the extra level of sick until it was pointed out to me. In this case, it was @Dr Mario’s comment about his real problem with Ross Jeffries.
            ————-
            PUA isn’t MLM. But, like MLM, PUA’s M.O. is to instill in someone (for PUA, hetero males) a set of beliefs and behaviors that enable that person to view other people (women) as things to be used and discarded.

            The difference is that PUA doesn’t get as much flak as MLM. But is that because PUA is less evil for society than MLM? Or is it because the culture is just way fucked up and chocked full with guys being sexist towards women to such an extent that some of that sexism is unconscious?


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

            1. @Wyrd,

              Maybe it’s because it’s easier to blame the victims.

              You were manipulated out of $1200 because you wanted to learn how to manipulate women into sleeping with you? You had it coming. Turnabout is fair play.

              You were manipulated out of $1200 because you wanted to learn how to earn money your family desperately needs? Your heart was in the right place.

              Personally, I think all genders are exploited by PUA. The window-dressing caters to socially inept man-boys who think magickal secret formulas are the only way they can get attention from women. PUA reaffirms those beliefs instead of correcting them, and – assuming it works – it teaches these man-boys enough tricks to get them into fast-lane, grown-up [life and death] relationships with adult women, without learning the self-confidence, self-knowledge, people skills, and the fact that (!) women are people, too, that most guys learn through trying (and failing) at increasingly serious relationships.

              Without our knowledge or consent, all women everywhere are served up as the product. Alison made the point about perpetuating rape culture better than I ever could, so I’ll leave it at that.

              One thing I’m curious about is whether there’s any PUA that’s not targeted at hetero guys getting women. Anybody know? Ross Jeffries was so quick to jump on Dr. Mario about conforming to societal sexual norms, but where’s Speed Seduction for the LGBT crowd?

            2. @Lanna,

              One thing I’m curious about is whether there’s any PUA that’s not targeted at hetero guys getting women. Anybody know? Ross Jeffries was so quick to jump on Dr. Mario about conforming to societal sexual norms, but where’s Speed Seduction for the LGBT crowd?

              “DIMITRI THE LOVER” aka Vileness Personified (and Glorified) recently tweeted:

              I was paid $6K to coach my 1st FAG SEDUCTION STUDENT! He’s a 45yo “POWER TOP”! Tonight he’ll use my TEEN SLUT MindRape protocol on TEEN BOYS

              http://twitter.com/dimitrithelover/status/208559308080820224
              and

              I met my FAG SEDUCTION STUDENT in cafe when I overheard him try SAME LAME LINES men use on TEEN GIRLS but on TEEN BOY! Satan told me to help

              http://twitter.com/dimitrithelover/status/208919339934560256
              and

              Last night my FAG seduction client RAVAGED 17yo Gap salesboy’s asshole! He excitedly described BLEEDING+CRYING+DEEP RIPS! I feel oddly proud

              http://twitter.com/dimitrithelover/status/209997624739241984

              In between those tweets there was something about seducing “WIGGERS”. From the context that appears to be a portmanteau of Woman + the N-word.

              His twitter page picture is also vile and, of course, sexist.

              It’s like if someone took Andrew Dice Clay’s horrible brand of “comedy” and put it into action and called “coaching” or “teaching”. It’s sick. And wrong. And stupid. But mostly sick.

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            3. @Wyrd,

              Any idea where that happened? In my state that would be statutory rape.

              Wiggers is a portmanteau of white + the N-word, although Urban Dictionary also has a definition that’s wannabe + the N-word. UD focuses on the suburbs, but visit any trailer park and you’ll find plenty of white people with braids and track suits, too.

              His twitter page picture looks like it was created by the mind and hand of a 12-year-old boy. It’s too stupid for me to be offended by it. It raises a lot of questions, though.

              Does James Sears really have one shoulder twice as wide as the other? Is that from early-onset osteoarthritis or what?

              Those female figures look like those action figures that topple over because they are top-heavy and have tiny feet. Does that mean the picture of him near them is him as an action figure?

              Is the reference to “Mein Kampf” supposed to be serious or humorous? Is he comparing himself to Hitler? In the article @What the what found about Gunwitcher Allen Reyes, he compared himself to Ted Bundy, so it wouldn’t actually surprise me if James Sears compared himself to Hitler.

              OK, now I’m disturbed by his twitter page picture.

            4. @Lanna,

              From the sales page, it looks the vile, juvenile scum is based in Toronto, Canada.

              In his vile NSFW video, he portrays himself as The Christ being crucified by femi-nazis, lesbians, and fat chick. Or maybe the lesbian was also the fat chick. I dunno. I don’t to watch it again.

              Furry cows moo and decompress.

        5. @Ross Jeffries, Probably your biggest problem is that you have an alter-ego who is forever 15 years old, and you freely allow this 15 year old to assert himself to your detriment. My alternative theory is that you are really and truly just a whack job. Either way, you can’t see the forest for the trees.

      3. @Alison,

        This!!! Yes! Thank you Alison for stepping up and making this incredible comment. Sometimes I think that when women become very vocal about the subject of rape culture they can catch a lot of heat and it can quiet them down for a time. You can start questioning whether you really are seeing things that aren’t there or taking things too seriously. If you are vocal about this type of thing you can hear the words “lighten up” quite often. Thank you for saying the things a lot of women are thinking and reminding us that there are others who think it too.

        Also, @Doctor Mario,

        “Using learned “tricks” … especially those designed to access someone’s subconscious/unconscious mind … with the intention of manipulating that person (into bed / into a relationship / into any premeditated outcome) … is immoral, unconscionable, and ultimately hurtful to all parties involved.”

        Exactly!

        And @Ross Jeffries is completely wrong. Your light touch with Jeffries doesn’t make you look bad. It makes him look worse.

        1. @What the what and @Doctor Mario

          “Using learned “tricks” … especially those designed to access someone’s subconscious/unconscious mind … with the intention of manipulating that person (into bed / into a relationship / into any premeditated outcome) … is immoral, unconscionable, and ultimately hurtful to all parties involved.”

          Have you looked at a cover of Cosmopolitan? Read the headlines? You don’t think that women also do exactly these same types of things to men?

          Here, take a look:

          http://www.cosmopolitan.com/

          You may not agree with Cosmo either, but seduction by illusion is hardly the exclusive territory of men!

          Most love relationships, in the beginning, are based on illusion and projection. It is called “infatuation.” The ones that last are the ones that get past the illusion and projection to honesty and caring, but sometimes the illusion and projection are the best part! And illusion and projection are not based on conscious or rational decisions. They are supremely unconscious, e.g. “love at first sight.”

          So I don’t think that teaching men to “pick up” women is necessarily evil at all. It really doesn’t have anything to do with rape. If using seductive techniques to access the unconscious mind to have voluntary sex with someone you’re attracted to is rape, then there are a whole lot of female “rapists” out there that are supported by a whole industry of fashion designers, women’s magazines, and cosmetic companies all working to make them more sexually attractive and seductive. Why do you think many women lie about or try to hide their age?

          So I get Allison’s point regarding how she feels about predatory men, and it is very sad. But most men aren’t predatory, and there is nothing inherently wrong with either sex learning how to be attractive or seductive to a person that they want to have sex with.

          And there is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex just for fun.

          And there is nothing inherently wrong with teaching those skills, either.

          1. @anonone,

            My name only has one “L”. ;) I’m the odd one out like that.

            Regarding the rest of your post: Who decides what is “beauty”? Who decides that something needs to be projected? That’s where the power inequality comes about. Hint: It’s not women.

            With regards to the magazine you chose to use as an example: Have you noticed the types of “articles” headlined within? What, overwhelmingly, do those articles serve? Is it the interest of women exclusively (since you’re promoting Cosmopolitan as a “women’s POV” magazine) or is it, instead, about pleasing men? Not that there is anything inherently wrong with pleasing men, of course, but why the assumption that women have to work that much harder to “keep” a man pleased? Why doesn’t this “women’s” magazine instead focus on women’s issues and women’s desires and needs?

            I’m afraid you’ve picked a magazine that we women don’t actually like very much to prove your point. Cosmo is owned by Hearst Corporation which is hardly the best corporation to point to as promoting equality. Funnily enough, it produces “O Magazine” – Oprah’s foray into, well, making more money off of herself. The top names at Hearst are all, coincidentally, white males.

            Obviously we’re getting into territory that doesn’t necessarily jive with the Droid’s message, so I’m going to stop talking about all this now. I believe anyone with an IQ over 80 can see the point I was trying to make above, and anyone who frequents this site who happens to be missing it is probably doing so on purpose.

            I would, however, like to clear up one point that seems to be of “concern” to you, anonone: I don’t view all men as predatory. Do I think every man out there is out to get every woman out there? Of course not; that’s ridiculous.

            But when one out of every three women is raped by the age of 25 and statistics show that they are overwhelmingly unable to have the legal system serve their needs (only 46 women out of 100 are encouraged to file police reports; of those, only 12 are investigated; out of those, only 5 are ever litigated; and of those, three rapists walk out of the courtroom with time served or no jail time at all), how can you even hint that my position is “very sad”? Why aren’t you pointing at society and saying, “I get it, and that’s very sad,” and then taking it a step further and saying, “As a man, what can I do to legitimize women’s feelings regarding safety?”

            Anyway. Back to the subject you seem most comfortable with: The scammers. You feel Jeffries isn’t one, or at least that what he does is legitimate. Fair enough. Neither of us is going to change the other’s mind on this point, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

            1. @Alison,

              Physical attractiveness is both cultural and biological, and it isn’t just men who set the standards for female beauty.

              I know that only a small minority of women read Cosmo, but an even much tinier minority of men have ever heard of, let alone studied, pick-up techniques taught by people such as RJ. But my point is that seduction is practiced by both sexes, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. And the fact is that many many women DO enjoy Cosmo and similar magazines as evidenced by its success in the market place. They sell a lot of issues and a lot of advertising. Clearly, Cosmo does appeal to many “women’s desires and needs,” even though they might not be yours (which is okay on both sides, is it not?) There are other women’s magazines women can and do read, too.

              But my main point is that seduction is not rape. Casual, consensual, un-coerced sex between willing adults is not rape. So to claim that RJ is promoting a “rape culture” because he teaches men how to meet and seduce women is flat-out wrong, unless you’re going to include everybody else who teaches and promotes seduction (which is a much much bigger group and includes a lot of women).

              Rape is a terrible crime, often a violent crime. Being falsely accused or falsely convicted of rape is equally terrible. Our criminal justice system is broken in dealing with rape, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion. But seduction is not rape.

              In regards to RJ being a scammer, as I have mentioned in previous posts, I think his whole “mindframe persuasion” thing is built on scam marketing techniques. From the reports I have heard, his PUA stuff works, but I don’t know how it is marketed.

              Finally, I am very sad that our society and most societies on the planet treat women so horribly. It shocks me as a man and as a human being.

              Thanks for your thoughtful response.

            2. @Alison, again…all I can say is thank you for putting your perspective and your experience out there. Agreed that this site isn’t the place for a long drawn out argument. But I do want to take a moment and say I am certainly grateful to you for the comments you’ve made.

          2. @anonone, think you might be missing the point. Are you a student of NLP? If so, that might explain it.

            No one has said that sex for fun is wrong. No one has said that seduction is wrong. No one has even said that teaching shy clueless average not-rich young men how to be more seductive with women is wrong.

            What people have said is wrong is that using NLP/Hypnosis techniques to induce trance (bypassing a person’s conscious mind, because that is what trance is, there’s o other definition) for the sole purpose of getting that person to have sex is wrong.

            And it IS wrong. Not just wrong in certain circumstances, not just maybe kind of wrong. It is just plain fucking wrong.

            If someone put you in a hypnotic trance and then stole your wallet, would you be happy about it? Would you think it’s all part of the natural game of life? And yet it is perfectly acceptable to seduce them using the same techniques?

            And if you think that PUA/seduction gurus are NOT teaching this, then why would you buy their products? This is what they advertise, it’s the Big Promise, the hot button, the stuff that makes you buy the crap in the first place. So don’t go denying it because it is easy to prove. This is what they do. There would be no “seduction industry” without the concept of mindfucking manipulation. You can put it in a fancy box and call it “personal growth” or “transformation” etc. etc. But you know….

            1. @anonone,

              I think you may not have noticed RJ’s bait and switch. He sells the idea to men that they can trick their way through women’s defenses and get a woman who they normally wouldn’t get. That’s the bait – how to con women.

              The switch is to pretend he is just improving relations between the sexes, and that “women want to be conned” and “women also judge themselves according to their looks”, etc.

              The fact that he’s selling the bait and not the switch is revealed in the way he’s been bragging about having screwed a “smokin hot danish chick” or whatever. If both parties wanted it, he wouldn’t be bragging. That kind of value system is by its nature predatory.

            2. @Regrets and @Yakaru

              Clinicians are quite clear that hypnosis will not make you do something that is against your morals or ethics. NLP certainly will not and cannot; despite the claims of its marketers. PUA cannot induce such trances, either.

              The marketing of PUA is fraudulent if it is making the claims that you say it is. However, my point is not about the marketing; it is about the product, and the comments that is promoting a rape culture.

              Seduction is not rape. Teaching men how to seduce women is not teaching them to rape women. Teaching men how to get women that they wouldn’t “normally get” (whatever that is supposed to mean) is no different than teaching women how to be more appealing so that they can get men that they wouldn’t “normally get.”

              (I guess that you think that you can judge who should “normally get” whom, but I can’t.”)

              Learning how to be more sexually appealing to a person one is attracted to by language and words is no different than trying to be more sexually appealing by using make-up, clothes, plastic surgery, perfumes, or sports cars. It is all part of the same seduction game. If you’re going to condemn one aspect of it as “plain fucking wrong,” then you need to condemn it all.

              And speaking of stealing your wallet, have you seen the prices of cosmetics and perfumes? What do you think they’re promising for those prices?

            3. @Yakaru,

              My apologies in advance for implying that the “normally get” was your term and not RJ’s.

              I agree with what you wrote about the bait and switch.

              a1

          3. @anonone, I’m not sure you understand your own argument here. I did look at cosmo, here’s what I found. 13 headlines. Of those 13,

            – 5 dealt with teaching women to look more attractive, be thinner, and have good hair [oh those poor men! they really are suffering]

            – 2 dealt with relationship issues (i.e., “How to turn any awkward Relationship Moment Around”, “Can you be Engaged too young?”)

            – 2 dealt with understanding Men’s perspective of Sex: “Why he wants to tie you up…and 6 more male sex fantasies decoded”; “What guys don’t want you to know about their, um, packages”

            – 2 were silly fluff about girly things guys secretly do and “First Period Horror Stories”

            – 1 was about women’s health

            – 1 was about making your ex jealous.

            So, really I think that focusing over 50% on making ourselves prettier, thinner, and understanding guy’s sexual fantasies are more harmful to women than the guys.

            But I can see how you might be upset about us learning about your, um, packages. So sorry for that.

          4. @Alsoanone, Again, the name is spelled with one L.

            Regarding my arguments against the PUA scene, I’m pretty certain my longest and best-voted argument didn’t make a “pity play” or even bring up being victimized. It was only after Mr Jeffries’ poorly articulated “just zip your lip” reply that I pointed out that I knew what I was talking about via first-hand experience.

            The only emotional appeal I attempt to make is the one that says women aren’t objects, that they are people with feelings and the right to be treated as such. So far, not one PUA supporter has agreed with me in that respect, so my argument stands: when women are treated like objects to be acquired for personal satisfaction, it perpetuates a misogynistic culture that shrugs off rape or seeks to reassign blame toward the victim.

            But good try, dude. You get a gold star for effort.

            1. @Alison ::

              @Alsoanone was Ross Jeffries too :: he’s so convinced that your argument is meaningless … that he can’t give it up even after you mention your own experiences and I ban him.

              Go away you disgusting OldManPig … get your diseased dick out and go play in the traffic.

              1. @SD, I had a feeling. The venomous nature of the comment made it seem rather personal. To be fair, I did call him vile and disgusting – and while it might be true, it wasn’t very nice of me.

              2. @SD,

                I’m beginning to Really Fucking Hate PUA stuff. A lot.

                Huh. Imagine that–from a completely unknown subject to Utter Hatred in just a week or so. How’s that for brand recognition and Suckcess!


                Furry cows moo and decompress.

          5. @Alison :: I don’t even think that pitiful attempt at off-topic trolling deserves the gold star for effort (or anything else).

            More like a frowny-face for poor reading comprehension & reasoning abilities.

            PUA-Cult-Brainwashing FTW!

  25. @anonone,

    Hmmm, you have definitely missed the point, and not noticed RJ’s bait and switch.

    RJ’s selling point (bait) is that he can teach men how to get women they believe would not have got without his training.

    Then on this site, Jeffries suddenly claims (switch) that he’s just helping men give women what they want anyway. That is the part that you have been discussing, instead of the bait.

    I argue that RJ’s bragging demonstrates that he is in fact promoting the “bait” and not the “switch” version. He is only bragging because he feels he got someone who he wouldn’t otherwise have got without his PUI tricks. If he thought the woman was just as happy with him, he would either have said “I met this lovely chick and we’re very happy” — or he would have said nothing about it at all, like all the other men (and women) here who have had happy sexual experiences in the time they have been commenting here but never had cause to blab about it.

    That value system that sees women as targets for PUA tricks, is not based on the idea of fair exchange.

    Objectifying women, assuming that they are there to be tricked and used, as RJ brags he can do, AND then as RJ did, telling them to shut up when they complain about it, is typical exploitive misogyny. That is what people here — at least those who didn’t swallow Jeffries’ bait and switch — have been objecting to.

    1. @anone,

      PS didn’t see your comment from -June 5th, 2012 at 5:39 am- before posting all that. Must have been posted while I was writing.

      Actually The “wouldn’t normally get” was my interpretation of what’s implicit in RJ’s views. I should have been a bit clearer and shown all my work, but I was trying to be brief.

    2. @Yakaru,

      In the bigger picture, our commercial world is objectifying for both men and women. I agree that RJ’s marketing pitch and personal bragging about conquests is both dehumanizing and misogynist, but so is much of what is advertised in major media and reinforced by the media itself.

      We are a society that values what you own or wear on the outside more than who you are as a human being.

      So I am not here to defend RJ or the abuse of PUA techniques by sociopaths or our sexist, misogynist, sexually-confused society. What I am pointing out is that equating teaching seduction with promoting a “rape culture” is wrong. Seduction is practiced by both sexes on many many different levels, and using words to seduce another person is not rape. Just ask Cyrano de Bergerac. :)

      1. @, There is so much wrong in what you said that I don’t even know where to start.

        First of all, Cyrano de Bergerac is your baseline? A story that was written from a male perspective in the 19th century, a century that is notorious for it’s lack of respect towards women? Yes, Cyrano used manipulation to seduce his cousin; it didn’t make it “romantic” or “right”, and that’s about all he has in common with Ross Jeffries.

        I’m sorry if the level of grace I’m displaying in my newest comments is somehow lacking, by the way; I think it’s directly proportionate to my frustration that some of you guys seem deliberately obtuse regarding RJ’s methods.

        Hypnotizing women *does not allow for informed consent* – period. Being hypnotized on stage to cluck like a chicken in front of an audience because it’s not inherently against your morality *isn’t violating a woman’s body*. You may feel like an idiot, but you’re probably not going to feel like crap and need therapy for the rest of your life because of it.

        What Jeffries does is not the equivalent of the crap Cosmo is paid to feed women. The argument was made that it “sells” and that it “sells lots of adspace” – but you know what, so does Internet Marketing. It doesn’t make it *right*. It doesn’t make it less disgusting just because society as a whole promotes it. Society is also promoting gender inequality in pay and dress, marginalization of anyone who identifies beyond the traditional gender roles of “male” and “female”, and seems to think that because more African-Americans are in jail than whites means they are the more violent race. If you happen to agree with society on any of those three topics above, I quite frankly don’t want to talk to you anymore.

        What Jeffries does is teach men who are – for whatever reason – unwilling to face their problems in a healthy way via therapy to hypnotize women into sex. Lying, manipulating someone, to get her into bed? How is that the start of a healthy relationship, which is what RJ was trying to convince us above is all his students want?

        Yes, removing ability to consent, no matter what phrases in which he seeks to couch it, is the equivalent of committing an act of rape against a woman. Hypnosis, Rohypnol – same thing in a theoretical bar setting. It is *promoting rape culture* to teach men to remove a woman’s ability or desire to say no through hypnosis. It is NOT the same thing as a magazine cover saying “10 tips for seducing your guy!!!” and to say so is laughable (or it would be if it weren’t so frustrating).

        I have a feeling that you just can’t get it. You can understand to a small extent, but at the end of the day, you just *can’t understand* where I’m coming from. And frankly, I’m getting very frustrated trying to explain this to people who just want to be right; you’re doing yourself a grave disservice by not taking a second to rethink your position, not to mention what you’re doing to any woman in your life.

        Given the facts – even just the ones presented by Doctor Mario above – and any issue of Cosmo, I’m going to take the facts. You’re welcome to think I’m overreacting, that’s fine; but I’m fairly certain more people agree with me than with Ross Jeffries, if that’s your baseline for being “right”.

        There are far more eloquent women and men on this site who have time to explain this, so I think I’m done with this conversation. I don’t mean that as negatively as I think it sounds, I’m just very busy raising three young men to be decent human beings who respect women to raise anyone else. ;)

        1. @Alison,

          1) The Cyrano de Bergerac reference was written in humor (see the “:)” after the comment.

          2) Hypnotizing people to have sex non-consensual sex is not possible, in spite of whatever RJ and the PUA teachers claim.

          3) Lying and misrepresentation to gain affection and sex is practiced equally by both genders, not just men and not just PUAs.

          4) Men are not the only practitioners of “picking up.” Women pick-up men, too, using manipulative and seductive skills, including lying, but they aren’t rapists either.

          5) Not everybody is looking to start a “healthy relationship” – sometimes people just want to have mutual fun together or experience a little fantasy. You are not the grand decider of what is healthy and what is not.

          6) Implying that using seductive words to seduce women is the “same thing” as using a date-rape drug is, frankly, ridiculous. If you really can’t see the difference, than there is no use in continuing this discussion.

          7) The “10 tips for seducing your guy” article is likely promoting exactly the same outcome as PUA stuff.

          The bottom line is that people cannot be hypnotized into consenting to behavior that is against their morals or ethics. Advertising that one can learn to hypnotize people into having consensual sex is the big lie of the PUA and NLP scammers. But if you believe that people can be hypnotized into having sex against their will, then I can understand why you believe that it is rape. If it were possible, then I would agree that it would be rape.

          But it isn’t possible.

          1. @anonone, you said “The bottom line is that people cannot be hypnotized into consenting to behavior that is against their morals or ethics.”

            This is simply not true.

            Most people are quite easily swayed into doing things they don’t think is right. I have done it many times. For instance, I have given money to scam artists even though morally, I am against that. I did it because I was convinced, sold, persuaded, hoodwinked, and so on. My hot buttons were pushed. My desire for easy money was exploited. And also I was inexperienced and naive in the ways of scammers. I regret many things I have been convinced to do by having these vulnerabilities, hence my user name.

            The lie that hypnosis and NLP gurus spread around to cover their asses is that these techniques are safe and can’t harm anyone. It is so not true. Keep going with the NLP and soon you will lose the ability to have an honest thought.

            1. @Regrets,

              Being consciously persuaded to do something voluntarily is not the same thing as being “hypnotized” and made to do something unconsciously that you would not otherwise do consciously.

              We are all vulnerable to be exploited by sociopaths. I recommend everybody read “The Sociopath Next Door” to learn how not to become a victim.

            2. @anonone, seduction gurus don’t “hypnotize” in the clinical sense of the word, I doubt they know how. They scrap together a variety of hypnotic “techniques” along with a whole shitload of other manipulation material they recycle from wherever, mindfucking seminars, books on brainwashing, cult techniques, etc. They admit this is what they do, just like copywriting gurus, they brag about it.

              There are many types of trance states. It is quite difficult to draw the line between conscious and unconscious behavior. Just about everyone can be made to do things under the influence of certain inputs that they would never do otherwise. People can be made to do very strange things without apparently leaving the conscious state. They are not zombie-like in the least. Nonetheless, their judging, reasoning mind has been bypassed. This is very well documented.

              And you compare marketing a bottle of perfume with a sexy name, that is seducing people to BUY perfume using sexual imagery, to a man directly targeting a woman for sex? I think you understand the difference.

              No one has said seduction is rape. But intentional manipulation using techniques especially designed to seduce someone into a sexual encounter WITHOUT their knowing or being aware of what they are being subjected to — and this is specifically what PUA courses teach — is wrong.

              The fact that it doesn’t work or that some (or most) women see through it, doesn’t excuse the intention, which is the main selling point of the crap. As previously mentioned by just about everyone in this thread.

          2. @anonone,

            You are really missing a few things.

            The product RJ sells is women, or imagined access to women. Men pay him to learn how to get access to women they would not otherwise have gotten access to. That is objectifying and exploitive in way that Cosmo is not.

            I’m sure RJ would not condone rape, but rape is at one end of a spectrum of non-consensual sex. The other end of that spectrum is objectification and persuasion. There is more to persuasion than hypnosis. The constant pushing back of boundaries, disarming the usual defenses etc. The same tricks that scammers use and the human psycheis open to by its nature.

            Most importantly — and I find it incredible that you don’t get this — is that men are physiologically and sexually dominant; and are socially and economically dominant in this society. Obviously, regardless of the manipulations of women, men are by default privileged. When was the last time a judge told a man who got raped that he was “asking for it” by driving a sportscar?

            RJ bases his entire business on this asymmetry. He uses women as the bait for screwing money out of men with the promise that they will get to use the women. Whether it “works” or not, it’s seriously fucked up.

            1. @Yakaru,

              Do a Google image search for perfume ads and look at the ones with men and women in them. What do you think they are selling? And check out the names:

              “Guilty”
              “Obsession”
              “Eternity”
              “Hidden Fantasy”
              “Escape”
              “Wanted”
              “Euphoria”

              Now, tell me who is doing the seducing with these chemicals? And appealing to the olfactory sense by perfume is highly seductive, not to mention obtrusive and unavoidable in its presence.

              My point is that seducing with language is no better or worse than any other form of seduction, whether it be by beauty, smell, clothing, whatever. And seduction is not rape. If the sex is consensual, it isn’t rape and to keep comparing it to rape is to trivialize the heinousness of the crime of rape.

              I get that we are a patriarchal society, but I don’t view women as weak and unable to recognize sleazy pick-up artists. I view women as being competent to make decisions regarding their own bodies, including who they choose to sleep with. And we all make bad decisions sometimes.

              Maybe the women, who so choose to, enjoy sleeping with PUAs because they like the way that they were treated. Who are you or anybody else to judge them or to decide for them that it was in some way wrong?

              And by the way, there is no “spectrum of non-consensual sex.” If an adult is incapable of consent or does not consent, it is rape. Consensual sex between adults, even if the man or woman is a PUA, is not rape.

          3. Just as an observer to this discussion, I wish the references to “hypnosis” would be dispensed with. Personally, I think of hypnosis as bullshit.

            I’m not suggesting people can’t be manipulated or “worn down,” but I don’t believe in “mind magic.” By connecting this to hypnosis and allowing that it can be used nefariously, it gives bullshitters bragging rights.

            I think the PUA schtick can be described as “pretending you are something you are not.” It’s really lying. These guys are trying to ferret out womens’ ideals, so they can pretend they meet them. How could that pretense ever last in a long term relationship context? Obviously it can’t.

            The reverse argument seems to be, “Women do similar things by using makeup, wardrobe, and putting on their own airs.”

            However, all of that is just a tangent.

            I believe Yakaru summed it up pretty well:

            “He uses women as the bait for screwing money out of men with the promise that they will get to use the women.”

            It’s similar to the “make money online” bullshit, isn’t it? What’s really happening is that it creates victims who are then trained to deceive others.

            1. @Dale :: While I have respectfully withdrawn from the larger PUA discussion on here for now, since it seems there are ample articulate peers who are expressing views similar enough to what I would say for me to give it a rest … I must say your ignorance on the topic of hypnosis enticed me to chime in.

              While the way many people imagine hypnosis to work is far off the mark, there is plenty of clinical data & research to unequivocally prove hypnosis “works” … to accomplish something. The mechanism & its potential applications / limitations are not so well understood, however.

              What’s worse is that the realm of hypnotherapy is poorly regulated … and, similar to “life coaching” … is full of hacks, quacks, and other basically uneducated “hypnotists” (boasting a “weekend seminar” type degree :: or worse). These quacks, unfortunately, are able to perform unproven therapeutic treatment regiments (unsupervised, with next to no oversight) for “patients” that in other contexts would require post-graduate medical degrees to legally implement.

              Regardless of the professional state of affairs surrounding the world of hypnosis as a therapy :: which varies state to state & nation to nation, there is no question that it is scientifically proven (in many contexts … tho as I said, its potentials & limitations are largely unknown).

              Here are some scientific studies on what you call “bullshit” …

              Harvard Study: “Hypnosis found to alter the brain”

              Stanford Study Shows Hypnosis Helps Kids Undergoing Difficult Procedure

              American Journal of Psychiatry: Hypnotic Visual Illusion Alters Color Processing in the Brain
              (Similar to the Harvard study above)

              Cerebral Activation During Hypnotically Induced and Imagined Pain

              The brain under self-control: modulation of inhibitory and monitoring cortical networks during hypnotic paralysis
              (From Department of Neuroscience, University Medical School, University of Geneva, Switzerland)

              The Existence of a Hypnotic State Revealed by Eye Movements
              (Joint effort by scientists from: School of Humanities and Informatics, University of Skövde, Sweden; Centre for Cognitive Neuroscience & Department of Psychology, University of Turku, Finland; Department of Biomedical Engineering and Computational Science, Aalto University School of Science, Espoo, Finland)

              Trance & Treatment: Clinical Uses of Hypnosis
              (By Herbert Spiegel, M.D. & David Spiegel, M.D. :: a book)

              Hypnosis and nonhypnotic techniques for reduction of pain and anxiety during painful procedures in children and adolescents with cancer
              (by Richard W. Olmsted (Editor), M.D. & Lonnie Zeltzer, Ph.D. & Samuel LeBaron)

              Bispectral Analysis of the Electroencephalogram Predicts Conscious Processing of Information during Propofol Sedation and Hypnosis
              (by Kearse, Lee A. Jr. PhD, MD; Rosow, Carl MD, PhD; Zaslavsky, Alan PhD; Connors, Patricia RN, BSN; Dershwitz, Mark MD, PhD; Denman, William FRCA)

              Neural Mechanisms of Antinociceptive Effects of Hypnosis
              (by Faymonville, Marie Elisabeth M.D., Ph.D.; Laureys, Steven M.D., Ph.D.; Degueldre, Christian Ph.D.; DelFiore, Guy Ph.D.; Luxen, André Ph.D.; Franck, Georges M.D., Ph.D.; Lamy, Maurice M.D., Ph.D.; Maquet, Pierre M.D., Ph.D.)

              I could obviously go on & on & on & on.

              So you see, hypnosis is a proven medical treatment methodology. It has neurological effects which have been amply measured & quantified in a wide variety of studies and settings.

              … and it has NO FUCKING PLACE WHATSOEVER in being used to seduce / attract women without their expressed consent! DEFINITELY not without their conscious knowledge of the fact that it is being used. Period.

            2. @Doctor Mario, I’d still conclude that hypnosis is bullshit. Here’s why.

              I believe hypnosis only “works” to the extent that the participants believe it will work. That is, they are suggestible. Kind of like a drunk I once saw at a county fair who volunteered to go on stage during a “hypnosis” show and strut around like a chicken.

              I’m quite certain that had it been me, I would not have strutted around like a chicken. Sure, I *might* have considered hooting like an owl, but that would not have constituted real hypnosis, that would have just been my usual penchant for hooting like an owl. In fact, I’m hooting like one right now as I type. But I digress.

              I also believe that “hypnosis” should not be credited where physical condition, environment, or extraordinary circumstances have a bearing on that “suggestibility.” For example, waterboarding, depression, homelessness, being beaten about the head with cleaning sponges by gangs of rogue maids, etc.

              The PUA “schtick” is quite different, because the “participants” aren’t even in on it. Instead, it is pure manipulation. Lies, exaggeration, false logic, and wordplay.

              A sophisticated example of that manipulation is when a PUA “artiste” slyly uses the well-known PUA pickup line, “Would you like some pie?” That’s where, regardless of the response, they (cunningly) follow up with, “Aha! I just KNEW you wanted to have sexy time!”

              So I believe three things: 1.) PUA is manipulation, not hypnosis. 2.) Hypnosis is bullshit. 3.) Rye bread should always be an option.

              Now, if you don’t want to believe hypnosis is bullshit, that’s your choice. However, at the very least, you should take the time to get a second opinion from a reputable, well-respected psychic you can trust.

            3. @Dale :: Nice work reading the studies… or not.

              I’ll simplify:

              If you’d “still conclude that hypnosis is bullshit” … then in the same breath reason that conclusion with the argument that:

              hypnosis only “works” to the extent that the participants believe it will work

              … then wouldn’t you be implying that the only ingredient to getting hypnosis to work on someone is convincing them (to believe) that it will work?

              Disregarding the hundreds of double-blind experiments that have proven actual hypnosis to work more than “placebo hypnosis” (even on those with “low hypnotizability”) … I think you may find it interesting to note that in spite of your seemingly self-contradicting argument … you are actually “right”.

              … newer research has shown more & more that people’s ability to have their consciousness altered by “wordplay” (as well as some other “persuasion” factors) is a lot more plastic than was once thought.

              In other words, science has begun to show that hypnosis is indeed “bullshit” … but only if you “believe it [won’t] work.”

              Clever hypnotists (and a few PUAs) have figured out how to circumvent this, and to get even people with “low hypnotizability” scores to respond as if they were the opposite (by “persuading” them that their “suggestions” will “work” … in a matter of speaking).

              This is my biggest problem with the PUA approach that advocates NLP/hypnosis “wordplay” techniques to “attract” or “seduce” women. It’s taking tools from the medical / clinical field into the “In-Field” of “The Game” … where it most certainly does not belong. Fortunately, other than our good buddy @RJ, most PUAs suck a fat bag of donkey dicks when it comes to understanding this more complex side of hypnosis. FWIW, even @RJ goes pretty light on the hypno-seduction (compared to the more fucked up stuff I’m fairly certain he has the capability to teach).

              Regardless, we are in agreement that the field of PUA, in general, is mostly advocating:

              Lies, exaggeration, false logic, and wordplay.

              Our only disagreement is the potential effects this type of “wordplay” (i.e. – hypnosis) can have on the unknowing / unwitting subject’s subconscious mind.

              FWIW, and for those who care, check Chapter 9 (pg 225) in the Oxford Handbook of Hypnosis: Theory, Research, and Practice for the history of this extremely important (for everyday life) side of hypnosis/suggestibility research.

          4. @Doctor Mario @Dale

            This:

            is pretty fucking disgusting.

            To give you an idea of context, that’s Ross Jeffries [heh…not ageing well, are we Ross?] with Louis Theroux – a skeptical BBC presenter. He would’ve loved to expose Jeffries’ techniques as bunkum, so it’s not like he’s a patsy for Jeffries. I think his “I feel a bit sick” comment suggests he feels Jeffries did hypnotise her…and Theroux is realising just how disgusting that behaviour is.

            If Jeffries’ had had a daughter, do you think he’d have been happy at the thought of guys using these techniques on her?

            I very much doubt it (although I’m pretty certain he’d lie and protest he wouldn’t mind in public)

            1. @Dr Geek :: OMG I had never seen that Louis Theroux doc where he meets our good buddy @RJ. I used to live a few blocks from Jeffries in MDR, and actually looked at a place in his very building … creepy.

              @Ross Jeffries :: You are such a foul excuse for a “human being”!

              … memorizing times & places where to meet women (“oh, this place is good between 10:00am and 12:30”) …

              … then running up on them with cold reading & hypno-NLP-language patterns … Talk about rape culture!!!

              It’s like Derren Brown … the rapist version. Neato.

              What scares me the most is that @RJ is actually {quite} good at hypnosis, and he thinks it’s kosher to go around using it on strangers without their foreknowledge or consent. (Rape Culture)^2

              Just one Ross Jeffries is more than too much … yet he’s teaching other guys to do the same thing! For shame!

              From the documentary:

              LOUIS THEROUX: She looked like you hypnotized her …

              ROSS JEFFRIES (with glee): I did hypnotize her!

              Then, here, when under attack, @RJ has the nerve to claim:

              You are massively mischaracterizing my work to say it is about “hypnotizing” women.

              {@Ross Jeffries :: Puke-level} … it’s over 9000!!!!!!!!

              @SD … I am with your awesome wife … I hope you will stop all other operations and focus completely on destroying Ross Jeffries … ASAP. Thanks.

            2. @Doctor Mario :: A few more quotes from the documentary that really stuck out …

              LOUIS THEROUX (after getting a girl’s number): I felt weird about that … you know why, because she seemed really nice…

              ROSS JEFFRIES: She was nice, and you were nice to her!

              LOUIS THEROUX: I’ll give you this Ross, it’s a powerful tool. But in the wrong hands … that could be, like, a complete disaster. Because you can manipulate people, and you can … I don’t know, it just seems like it could be really destructive.

              EXACTLY!!!

              LOUIS THEROUX: I left Ross feeling newly confident, but also oddly troubled. I wondered if all I’d learned was how to use people and not feel guilty.

              This really shows how much integrity a genuine person like Louis Theroux has.

              IMO (as a man) any woman would be a million times more lucky to end up with a guy like Louis than with a guy like Ross.

              Thank you so much for posting that documentary @Dr Geek!!!! Bloody brilliant.

            3. @Doctor Mario, Can you please quit EMULATING SD here with the double colons? :: :: :: :: ::

              This is SD’s blog, and that’s HIS style. It is rather unique to him. The mimicry is off-putting, especially when it appears alongside the original.

              In addition, the last person who started doing that here turned out to be straight out of Bizarro-World. We don’t need no stinkin’ flashbacks.

            4. @Colonoscopy :: When :: in :: Rome …

              For all you know @Doctor Mario maybe came here from Bizarro-World in the first place. {Flashback!} ///

  26. Furthermore, when RJ isn’t hypnotizing/objectifying women he is either gay bashing or attacking his friends and colleagues as frauds.

    That’s pretty much the gist of Ross Jeffrie’s M.O.

    1. Sell men on how to hypnotize women.
    2. Use the word ‘gay’ as a demeaning term against his colleagues.
    3. Accuse anyone who isn’t joint ventured with him as a fraud.

  27. I have not said that PUA techniques are rape.

    What you are saying though is that the stuff in Cosmo is the equivalent of what RJ does, but you are not connecting that with the context of male dominance in society.

    Objectifying a subjugated person is inherently different from objectifying a privileged person, and RJ’s business is based on exploiting AND MAINTAINING that unjust relationship.

    If you don’t see any gray areas in sexual consent, I guess you are lucky enough never to have suffered, or encountered anyone who has suffered sexual abuse or domestic violence before. RJ’s techniques target exactly these kinds of vulnerabilities without the slightest regard.

    It’s not good.


  28. Learn How To Reclaim Your Natural Sexual Aggression And Dominance

    Enjoy Fantastic Power To Irresistibly Influence Others!

    Regardless of his product’s efficacy (which I sincerely doubt), there isn’t any question about what it is he is marketing to men. For a price he will teach you what to say to successfully manipulate others.

    If his bullshit seminars were about helping men without social skills learn how to meet and connect with women he wouldn’t need to promise “irresistible influence”, would he? Nope. It’s not about meeting people, or improving yourself, or connecting with other people. It is about disregarding humanity and the morals normal people adhere to in order to use your ‘natural sexual aggression’ to dominate others.

    Cosmo doesn’t have two hundred year old women talking about how they’re dating three twenty year old Spanish underwear models. Seriously, when is the last time some crusty old lady was in Cosmo explaining how she hypnotized a bunch of young men into dating her? It would never happen.

    I think anonone’s point is that we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Seduction is a natural part of society, and it always will be regardless of which gender is considered more powerful. Matriarchal societies will still have men doing what they can to get laid – this is just reality. Having a lot of sexual partners doesn’t make you a monster or a scammer or evil, and whether or not you like it is entirely up to the individual.

    But teaching men to hypnotize women, bragging about every woman as if she were nothing more than a baseball card, teaching men to ‘enjoy fantastic power’ – these things are creepy.

    And to think that the slimeball behind them has the nerve to try and act innocent, bribe Salty, and sell out his colleagues as if he were innocent just makes it that much slimier.

    1. And if I may belatedly join in again on the conversation about hypnosis and seduction… the real point, as noted above, is not even whether or not hypnosis is legit or b.s. It’s the intention that counts in this context: what is being marketed to men. I’m reminded of that creepy culty sex-and-money business called Access Consciousness, which supposedly teaches all sorts of mind-control techniques to get anyone to do what you want him or her to do, sexually or otherwise. (And also, apparently, to get the Universe to do your bidding.) You supposedly learn how to plant thoughts in other people’s heads and make them think that what you wanted them to do was their idea. Whether the techniques “work” or not isn’t even the question. It’s the intention, which is manipulation for self-serving purposes. Same goes with the PUA stuff.

    1. @what the what, Ok….Not sure what happened up there. Was making a reply and then tried to cancel it as I thought it would be better to make a stand alone post….

      The only thing I wanted to add to this PUA topic of conversation is..as @Cosmic Connie, @Peter, @Doctor Maria and so many others have said, the intention is really key here. PUA markets itself as providing men with manipulative techniques to get women to sleep with you that you ordinarily wouldn’t be able to “score” with. [I’m using the “royal you” here]. It MUST be referring to women who would ordinarily be interested in having sex with guy because if she would have been interested without the “techniques”, then he wouldn’t need to PUA stuff.

      So even if we assume that all of the PUA stuff is bullshit and doesn’t actually work, it certainly does create a community where men are repeatedly steeped in the ideas that it’s completely ok to manipulate women into sex. In fact, it’s not just ok it’s necessary. (otherwise their product wouldn’t be necessary). As if a woman’s unwillingness to sleep with a man is something to be overcome through word play and manipulation. ( That is not healthy seduction. That is one person using another for his own selfish means.)

      These ideas are being instilled in real mean. Some of the guys may have come into the community as dirt bags. Some might be good guys who really did just have trouble meeting and talking to women…but there are real people being assaulted with the PUA mentality…real men who go out into the world and interact with women. (And those good guys are being harmed in the same way the victims of MMO are being trained to be scam artists.)

      1. @what the what,

        Actually, one person’s initial reluctance to sleep with another person is usually only overcome with some kind of manipulation.

        The fact is that anybody who has ever dated has tried their best to be liked romantically by the person that they are attracted to, and to set up (manipulate) an atmosphere that is conducive to that goal. This can include things such as flowers, perfume, sincere flattery, make-up, and romantic restaurants. Men and women both try to show their best and hide their worst. So everybody tries to manipulate in some shape or fashion – it is all a natural part of courtship.

        And some happen to be naturally better at it than others. And others can learn to be better at it, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

        1. @anonone,

          And others can learn to be better at it

          Exactly. Just like people can actually learn to build real, feasible businesses that have an online presence. Or they can fork over wads of cash to learn to hypnotize (sorry Dale) women. RJ’s programs are not about improving yourself. In fact, if you read his piece of shit copy he repeatedly explains that there is no point to actually being a decent human being when you can hypnotize women. Ross Jeffries has bragged that he wouldn’t even shower before going out, because his ability to manipulate women (and you can too!) was so great.

          I’ve read all of your comments on this article, anonone, and I think we are in agreement more often than not. Leaving comments back and forth is always going to create misinterpretations and a certain level of confusion, but it sounds like you’re really defending seduction itself and every man and woman’s right to do what they can to improve their sex lives, which I agree with.

          This isn’t about polygamy versus monogamy, or even about whether or not seduction is immoral – I don’t see a difference between RJ’s marketing tactics and Frank Kern’s or anyone else’.

          There are plenty of guys who’ve handed over thousands of dollars to learn how to manipulate and hypnotize women and they’re all as single and lonely as the single and lonely PUAs at the top. It’s a pyramid scheme with unicorn women that only stick around for the photo shoot for the website about the women that are no longer around because the photo shoot is now over….AND YOU CAN TOO!

          1. @Peter,

            You’re right – we do agree on more than we don’t.

            I think that RJ’s marketing is extreme – but he is also simply saying things overtly and blatantly that other marketers try to simply imply, allude to, or suggest. Furthermore, unlike Kern et.al., RJ actually teaches some things that can work, whereas IM scammers are selling something that (they know) can’t work.

            Anyway, here is an interesting summary of a book by someone who spent time in the world of PUAs. I think that people will see that most of the “techniques” are not evil or hypnotic as many here seem to think!

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game:_Penetrating_the_Secret_Society_of_Pickup_Artists

            1. @anonone ::

              You are a fucking idiot. Maybe you and @Peter can agree on some stuff … but I can tell that you are a garbaging talking garbage eater.

              So ShortStack Strauss “spent time” with PUA’s? That sure is a fucking idiot way to put it.

              You know after they used that book for lead gen … Neil & Irwin & Harlan … launched a product as vicious and hateful as anything else ever done by The Syndicate?

              http://saltydroid.info/annihilating-kilstein/

              Annihilation Method and Neil Strauss are part of Irwin F. Kern’s unicornian Internet Marketing origin story … look it up.

              You are done speaking on this post also. I want to hear from ladies … and people not sucked under by disgusting {that’s you fuckwad!}.

            2. @anonone,

              Anyway, here is an interesting summary of a book by someone who spent time in the world of PUAs. I think that people will see that most of the “techniques” are not evil or hypnotic as many here seem to think!

              Well, hang on there, sparky. I followed your link. You might not want to use that as your primary reference about the book.

              According to Wikipedia, the book’s author is Neil Strauss.

              This is from the Wikipedia article’s “Reception” section for the book:

              Reception

              Neil Strauss was quoted in a review in The Guardian as saying “A side effect of sarging is that it can lower one’s opinion of the opposite sex”, though the reviewer noted that “And yet, as he has described it, the inverse is true: a low opinion of the opposite sex is a prerequisite for sarging”.[2] Strauss was also quoted as saying “The point was women; the result was men. Instead of models in bikinis lounging by the Project Hollywood pool all day, we had pimply teenagers, bespectacled businessmen, tubby students, lonely millionaires, struggling actors, frustrated taxi drivers, and computer programmers – lots of computer programmers”.[2] The reviewer remarked that “The sell is that, with the special techniques they learn from Mystery and other gurus, the ubergeeky can often give a convincing simulation of being a regular human being, even if, like one sarger in this book, they are in fact near-sociopaths”.[2]

              Another reviewer in The Observer wrote “Some of the recommended techniques are sinister. One involves discreetly undermining a woman’s self-esteem by paying her a backhanded compliment in the hope that she will hang around to seek your approval. This manoeuvre has its own name: ‘the Neg'”.[3]

              Malcolm Knox wrote “I doubt he has anything helpful for anyone except those men whose emotional maturity stalled at age 15”.[4] He also wrote “If the reader is too far ahead of the author, a book has a problem. On page 406, Mystery’s mother says his problems are caused by his low self-esteem. Strauss reflects: ‘Only a mother could reduce a person’s entire ambition and raison d’etre to the one basic insecurity fuelling it all.’ No. It’s taken 406 pages for Strauss to realise what most readers will have got by page 10”.[4] He notes the failure of “Project Hollywood” and that the book doesn’t recognise the role of women in selecting partners.[4] He also writes “The other false advertisement is that Strauss has ‘penetrated’ a ‘secret society’ of geeks-turned-gurus including Mystery, his rival Ross Jeffries and renegade PUA teachers nicknamed Papa and Tyler Durden. Yet when Strauss writes about them in The New York Times, they’re thrilled”.[4]

              Alexandra Jacobs wrote that he switched awkwardly between misogynistic comments and feeble attempts at self-awareness.[5] She also notes that “But he does come to perceive one curious thing about the P.U.A.’s: They seem far more interested in spending time with fellow P.U.A.’s, amassing, refining and discussing the game, than actually getting to know women. Call them S.L.B.’s (scared little boys)”.[5]

              It looks like he’s some guy that writes flamboyant, titillating books for no great reason than to popularize himself.

              Here’s a list of books by Neil Strauss, according to Wikipedia:

              The Long Hard Road Out of Hell with Marilyn Manson (1998)
              The Dirt with Mötley Crüe (2001)
              Don’t Try This At Home with Dave Navarro (2004) [ the guitar player, not the IM guy ]
              How to Make Love Like a Porn Star: A Cautionary Tale with Jenna Jameson
              The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (2005)
              How to Make Money Like a Porn Star, illustrated by Bernard Chang (2006)
              Rules of the Game (2007)
              Emergency: This Book Will Save Your Life (2009)
              Everyone Loves You When You’re Dead: Journeys Into Fame and Madness (2011)

              Neil Strauss doesn’t seem that cool to me. He just looks like someone who wants desperately to have people pay attention to him.

              ————-
              And none of this will have any effect on Ross Jeffries’s well deserved ban.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

        2. @anonone, At this point I’m not sure whether I’ve just really mucked up trying to explain my point or you are purposely trying to not see it…I’m going to take one last stab at this and address a few of the comments you have made above.

          DATING AND MANIPULATION
          In general, when it comes to dating we all try play up our “positives” and down play our “negatives”. We dress nice, do our hair, put on makeup, sprtiz on some perfume or cologne. We are on our best behavior, we’re polite, we tell out best stories. We do this in the hopes of making a good impression and having the other person like us and…whatever: go on another date, have sex, develop a serious relationship, etc.

          None of this is “manipulative”. It’s the known and understood dating ritual in our society. This type of thing doesn’t come anywhere near PUA.

          THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN DATING & PUA
          PUA is an entirely different beast than what I explained above. I’ve done some digging around and based on what I’ve seen the danger with PUA is concepts and intentions it can generate in its followers:

          (1) women don’t get their own sexuality. They have to be convinced or persuaded into acting on it;

          (2) women are all alike. Push this button, pull that lever, and Woman will behave the way you want her to

          (3) What she wants doesn’t matter, just make her want what you want using my “patent pending” techniques…(she’ll be grateful for it cuz women actually WANT sex and LIKE sex so once you make her want it she’ll be happy you did).

          Ross Jeffries comments here have been a great example of this type of thinking. He came here under the guise of saying “hey women WANT to have sex, they WANT to be seduced” [paraphrased] but he seems to think that’s something only he knows about and we women haven’t heard about it yet. On his website, he invites you to:

          ” Get Past The Stuck Point And Get To The Fuck Point With…Sexual Aggression Mastery: The Sexually Forward Male”

          What will this “awesome” product do? Jeffries claims it will:

          ” …Clear The “Final Frontier” Of Seduction Success: Getting Sexual And Moving Past Any Resistance (Yours Or Hers) Or “Stuck Points”, Now!”

          Wow! He’s going to teach you to get past any of my resistance, Now!. That’s a little scary. Why would he sell such a product? I’m glad you asked. Apparently,

          “…Many Women Are Not Sure They “Want It” Until They See How Forward And Aggressive You Are In The Face Of Their Seeming “Disinterest” Or Initial “Resistance””

          Holy. Fuck. This right here actually scares me. All joking aside, this type of idea genuinely scares me. I can’t speak for all women but holy shit! If I’m resistant or disinterested in having sex with a guy it is NOT because I don’t know how badly I actually want it. It’s because I’m fucking resistant or disinterest in having sex with him! And I sure as hell don’t need him to “Master his Sexual Aggression” in the face of my resistance.

          I can’t even begin to explain how angry this makes me. What the fuck! This big “secret” of Jeffries’ smacks of the outdated concept that women are afraid of or unable to understand their own sexual desires or lack there of! He is actually fucking telling men that if I am resistant to having sex with him it’s because I don’t realize how much I actually want to have sex with him and that guy should OVERCOME my resistance.

          Even if Jeffries doesn’t mean that a man should hold the woman down and force her…he is telling men that women are resistant because they don’t know how bad they want it until a man gets sexually aggressive. No man should be upping the aggression level when he perceives that a woman is resistant or disinterested.

          Jeffries also seems to think that women don’t know whether they want to give a man oral sex until he “conditions” her with “patterning” {someone posted this in a comment elsewhere but I’ll put it in here again for clarity}

          Pattern II. Here’s the “real” BJ pattern:) Ross Jeffries:

          “I was just sitting here thinking about taking a vacation, if you could imagine your ideal vacation spot what would it be like? (Stop and let her talk)

          You know, I think its so interesting how people connect with their hopes and their desires and their daydreams, right? … I was reading this article the other day about compulsions and it got me to thinking about the difference between compulsion and anticipation.

          I mean, have you ever come home from a hard day of work and the boss was a jerk and kept piling the papers up on you desk and its like all you can think of is dropping your clothes and getting into that steamy hot bath or shower.

          Its like before you even step in you can already feel that heat working its way through every muscle in your body and all your frustrations just drop away and all you can feel is the pleasure of that warmth just shooting through every part of you.

          And then there’s that moment of sliding in where you really let that pleasure take you and it just feels great doesn’t it?

          Yeah well, do you like chocolate? (Or is there a food that when you see it you absolutely have to put it in your mouth?). I mean, can you stop and remember a time when you saw a piece of chocolate and your mouth is already tasting it before you even put it in, and you can already taste that sweetness against your tongue and you can feel the special rich texture of it against your tongue as well. You know that texture that really good chocolate has.

          And then there’s that moment, that moment when the first molecule of chocolate touches your tongue and you know it’s inside your mouth and you just want to keep it there because it’s so rich and so good. And there’s that extra special warmth when you swallow that sweetness down.

          Or then maybe, you know like sometimes you meet someone and you’re really attracted to them and you both know it and there’s that moment when your eyes lock, it’s that special look just before you kiss, just before you do it the very first time and you’re trembling with anticipation and your heart is pounding because you’re thinking about how good it’s going to be.

          It’s like every physical moment of that relationship is enfolded/contained or rolled into that first touch of the lips and there’s that excitement, with that first soft contact of the lips where you don’t even know if you are touching or not but then, oh man, it’s like a jolt of electricity all through you.

          (See I think what happens is the conscious mind goes down into the subconscious and brings back up all these thoughts, images, desires and fantasies, and you may think those thoughts are above me, but really I think they’re blow me _____ because you’re coming from a much deeper part and your mine aren’t you?)”

          [end quote]

          Mr Jeffries doesn’t seem to realize that women can figure out whether we want to perform oral sex. We know what it is, we know it’s a thing people do. So if Jeffries actually believes women want and like sex why does he feel that women need to be “conditioned” to perform oral sex?

          And that’s without even getting into the other shady techniques used by other PUA gurus which include tearing down a woman’s self esteem. Or the technique where you invite her to your place before the date so she feels more comfortable coming in after.

          This post has gotten epicly long so I will try to wrap it up here. There are a lot of aspects about the PUA community that are reminiscent of the MMO community. The difference is that instead of “automatic income streams”, PUA sells sex /women on demand.

          I hate all of that. I hate the idea of being an object to be used to satiate a man’s lust. I hate the idea that there are actually people out there who think my sexual needs and desires are something they know more about than I do. I hate that people are making money by teaching other men ways to trick me and women like me into bed. I hate that these people are making money selling the idea that women are so simple creatures and some algorithm will return a sex act. I hate reading about this type of misogyny because it’s not like the MMO crap where I can walk away from this site and not have to see it in the real world.

          I hate that some guys who are a little shy or have trouble talking to women are learning this instead of getting actual help with whatever is holding them back. This PUA shit makes them worse off.

          What ever happened to respect and recognizing that our actions have effect other people?

          1. @what the what,

            While I hesitate to make light of the most serious of issues, I can’t help feeling I’d love to see Jeffries and his ilk meet this girl…

            1. @Dr Geek,

              That din’t seem to work. Have a wee shufti a this link to see XKCD’s take on the whole PUA world

              http://xkcd.com/1027/

              If anyone’s interested in Louis Theroux take on hypnosis like RJ and Marshall Sylvers, the whole episode is here. They don’t come out of it well. Much of it will be depressingly familiar here ($10000 seminars, “Millionaire Mentorship Programmes” and the like).

              http://watchdocumentary.com/watch/louis-therouxs-weird-weekends-self-fulfilment-hypnosis-video_b1c0ebda0.html

            2. @Dr Geek, Ha! that comic was funny. Hey, a little well placed levity never hurt anyone. You’ve got to be able to take some time for that or it can just be too sad. Plus, that type of commentary can be really effective…

              Anyway, thanks for those links….setting aside the video for later : )

          2. @what the what,

            Each of us has a different opinion on whether PUA works, doesn’t work, or works but not in the way they explain it. No matter how you look at it, though, it’s just vile.

            I believe it works but not in the way they explain it. Ross Jeffries had said it’s 50% “inner game.” I look at that “blow job script,” and what I see is scripted small talk, for those who are too socially awkward to think up small talk on their own. How can you convince a guy that a script is worth memorizing? Tell him it’ll get him a blow job. So it’s 50% “inner game,” 25% scripted small talk, and probably 25% basic social convention, like please-and-thank-you and not blurting out stupid shit like, “Geezus you’re fat,” or “Boobies!”

            Basically I think they use inflated marketing claims to sell guys a self-confidence and etiquette workshop, which is scammy. And then the ideas and language they use perpetuate rape culture.

            I wonder if anybody’s tracking the rate at which PUA workshop attendees are charged with sexual harassment and sexual assault and comparing them to the average rate.

            1. @Lanna, I actually came across a small mention of this when I was looking into PUA but didn’t dig too deeply…heading off into the wilds of the internet to see what I can find…but be forewarned, my google-fu doesn’t come anywhere near yours.

            2. @Lanna,

              Yikes! Sexual assault on a patient?!?! Not an auspicious beginning for someone who teaches “seduction”.

              I didn’t find any stats re: PUA & sexual assault, but I did find this other story re: a different PUA “guru” who shot a woman in the face. Good times!

              http://manboobz.com/2011/01/07/gun-loving-pick-up-guru-allegedly-shoots-a-woman-in-the-face/

              The more I look into these PUA gurus, their sales pages & sales tactics look sooooo much like the MMO crew.

            3. @What the what,

              Wow. Put her in critical condition. And he cited Ted Bundy as an example of how to pick up women.

              I want to un-know these things and go back to thinking Ross Jeffries represents the skeevy side of PUA. Compared to these psychopaths, Ross Jeffries is just a dirty old man-pig.

              On another note, I followed the link on Man Boobz to Jezebel’s take on the shooter, and Jezebel wanted to tell me about this old-timey scam:

              The Ladies’ Deposit: Created by Women for Ripping Off Women

  29. To me, the whole business of PUA is an attempt to get something you wouldn’t be able to normally get. You know, kind of like date rape with Rohypnol.

    Yeah, I’m comparing PUA to Rohypnol. I’m a woman, I know I wouldn’t like either experience!

  30. As for PUA “Dimitri The Lover”, I used to attend his “Toronto Real Men” meetings and I got a lot out of them. They were totally difference than other lair meetings in that he focused on female psychology. Don’t know why you’re trashing the fact that he’s a de-licensed doctor … that was the main reason why he gave killer advice on how to MindRape women! Guys would ask about delicate seduction situations in the workplace or at school or on a woman they’d see each day on the subway. He’s ask what the woman was wearing, about her sitting position, hair colour, etc … then he would give the guy a detailed seduction plan. Each month I’d go to the next meeting and sure enough the advice given the previous month worked like a charm. Then he just cancelled the meetings and put us on a monthly newsletter. That upset me. I still follow him on twitter, but the account is not for the faint of heart. It’s seduction tips mixed in with a misogynistic sense of humour (If you click on my info the twitter link is there) BTW, does anyone have any video of Dimitri The Lover doing seduction? He showed a director’s cut of his movie at one of the lair meetings. It was approach after approach. It still hasn’t been released and I wish I had a copy.

      1. @Yakaru, the post seems legit, but if it’s not, it’s probably one of his crazed minions. I’m the webmaster for a couple of sites where some negative posts about Dimitri The Lover appeared. He was being defended from multiple IP addresses in rapid succession. There were guys attending the meetings that have Google alerts set for anything to do with him. It got a little creepy at times, especially when he held a meeting to teach men how to seduce teenage girls. The guys who showed up for that one were really, really sinister looking.

        1. @Seduction Newbie,

          My definition of trolling is probably a bit too broad, but in this context I think it’s the best term. For example, I’d categorize you as a rather lame concern troll. It’s all about the inability to communicate like a normal person.

          1. @Yakaru, it sounds like you guys have some sort of animosity toward Dimitri, and that animosity is so great that you now have resorted to insulting posters because they disagree with you. When you’re that biased about an issue it sort of makes it impossible to have an objective discussion about it. There are dozens of articles written all over the net about Dimitri’s meetings and his techniques. I think he’s a substantial enough figure in the seduction community that a discussion about what he does is warranted. He was brought up by other posters in a rather sensationalistic context, and both myself and what appears to be another poster who attended him meetings, tried to provide some valuable insight.

            1. @Seduction Newbie,

              You show up here anonymously, declare your dedication to learning how to manipulate people and then get indignant when you don’t get instant credibility.

              I’m not in the least surprised that a thin-skinned insecure person with a sense of entitlement should be excited about the idea of becoming great seducer. Those PUA scammers must start licking their lips when they see men like you coming.

            2. @Seduction Newbie, to clarify, I never felt a “sense of entitlement” until AFTER I began attending Toronto Real Men meetings. By then my inner rapist had been awakened and I learned that I was “entitled” to what is rightfully mine … every woman that I want. As for “PUA scammers licking their lips”, unlike every other seduction lair I attended, during which men were constantly bombarded with demands to pay extra money for courses and seduction materials, Dimitri never once even mentioned his courses or coaching. A TRM meeting would be 3 hours of intense seduction training. He’d give a brief speech on a topic, we’d ask our questions in the open forum, he’d answer them, we’d take a short intermission during which he’d feed us, then we’d leave. He considered it a community service and his manager Shawn even said that after our $29 admission, after they pay for rent and food they’d LOSE money on the meetings, but that Dimitri felt men in the city were being overly Metrosexualized by spill-over from the large homosexual community and he had a civic duty to do something about it. I’ve never paid for any courses or coaching. I’ve downloaded all my seduction videos and books for free. I am NOT as naive as you would make me out to be.

            3. @Seduction Newbie, You are terrible at being a person. Do you even hear yourself? Your “inner rapist”?!?! FTW! News Flash!!! Men are NOT naturally programmed to be rapists. Your comments are insulting to women and men both. And you are starting to sound like the Men’s Rights Movement/Men Going Their Own Way that I’ve been reading so much about lately while researching PUA. You a member of that group too?

              Also, you are ABSOLUTELY as naive as @Yakuru makes you out to be. You are paying money for seminars that teach you to do things that will harm others and could get you thrown in jail. Sounds like a terrible deal to me.

    1. @Toronto PUA,

      Did you accidentally swallow your own Rohypnol? Do you have any understanding of where you are?

      I think you are the guy in panel eight here:
      http://gardenhose.thecomicseries.com/comics/1/

      We’re trashing James N. Sears for being a de-licensed doctor because he sexually assaulted his patients! He’s not a guy who knows what women want or where we draw the line between flirting and assault.

      Did it ever occur to you that women – and men – do not want to be “MindRaped”? For that matter, we don’t want to be any kind of raped.

      Cages for rapist psychopaths.

    2. @Toronto PUA, I attended Dimitri’s meetings and I’m on the newsletter. Personally, I found the meetings far more useful than the newsletter. Listing which grocery stores and malls to hit for “sluts” is fine, but it’s kind of tough to describe seduction technique without either video or a live meeting. Just my two cents.

        1. @Lanna, lol! Not exactly, but he did zero in on a word grouping I was using that kept attracting the wrong kind of women. He also said I was using the “wrong cadence” when delivering it. Once I was given an appropriate phrase and I practiced the intonations, I was able to seduce far better. I wish it was “10 new female orifices a month”.

          1. @Seduction Newbie,

            So then it’s fair to say the results claims “Dimitri” uses in his marketing are exaggerated?

            Can you tell me more about Frank B. Kermit founding and then leaving the Toronto Seduction Lair? He told the Toronto Sun, “This industry attracts the worst type of people.”

            1. @Lanna, I attended both the Toronto Seduction Lair and “Toronto Real Men” (Dimitri’s group). I attended a few other upstart seduction lairs that went nowhere. Kermit invited Dimitri to be a guest speaker at his group. That’s when I first learned of Dimitri and it was the only meeting that I got anything out of. I stopped attending Kermit’s meetings after I was sexually propositioned by one of the other attendees.

              I then started attending Toronto Real Men. During TRM meetings Dimitri had “outed” several attendees at Kermit’s group who were homosexual men that infiltrate these meetings for various reasons (wanting to feel more straight, wanting to seduce confused straight men, etc). Dimitri used his laptop during one of the meetings to show postings on various forums by one male that was quite vocal at Kermit’s meetings. These postings mentioned “kissing boys” and various other homosexual activities. This closet homosexual attendees later went on to be touted as a seduction columnist of sorts by Cliff on Cliff’s List.

              Dimitri had nothing negative to say about Kermit the man. He liked the guy. Instead, he felt Kermit’s “mothering” approach towards seduction was attracting homosexual men to the meetings. Dimitri was on the opposite end of the spectrum, trying to bring out the unapologetic “inner rapist” in men. Most attendees to Toronto Real Men had spend thousands (some of them tens of thousands) attending seminars with various “gurus”. Every one that I spoke to without exception said that Dimitri’s meetings gave them more insight into the reasons why they were unsuccessful with women than any course they had even taken.

              During meetings Dimitri would expose scam guru after scam guru. An attendee may say “But Mystery says to …”, then Dimitri would say “That’s total BS and would never work because …”, and he would explain the deep psychology behind why it would not work. The funniest incident in TRM history was when we were sent an email to not attend a specific meeting because one of Dimitri’s minions informed him that Barry Kirkey was crashing it. I hear that virtually no one attended and Barry made a total ass of himself. He just kept flinging wise cracks to an empty room (lol).

              Finally, Dimitri would have his girlfriend attend all the meetings to provide female insight into various seduction scenarios. That was awesome!

              Look, Dimitri hasn’t held a meeting in a couple of years so I have nothing to gain by lying about how good they were. I provide my observations only to give you objective insight into what he was doing, and to emphasize what a big void him stopping those meetings left in the Toronto seduction scene. I hope he starts them back up again.

            2. @Seduction Newbie,

              So, you stopped attending meetings where you were learning how to sexual proposition people after you were sexually propositioned by one of the other attendees? Do you see the irony there?

            3. @Lanna, I guess it’s “ironic”, but I was more creeped out than anything. I kept thinking to myself “Do I look THAT desperate?” Anyway, I was so embarrassed that I kept it to myself for several months. It wasn’t until Dimitri mentioned in passing during a meeting that a lot of closet & cryto-homosexuals attend Kermit’s meetings that I confided to the TRM group as to what happened. Everyone was very understanding, with 3 other guys recounting similar incidents after they heard my sordid tale.

            4. @Seduction Newbie,

              Hmm, I’ve always heard you should take it as a compliment when you get hit on. Was it just one guy hitting on all four of you, or was it multiple guys? Did Kermit not know about this going on, or did he know and just ignore it?

            5. @Lanna, you’ll have to ask Kermit. Also, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are a gay man wearing a female sock puppet because you are overly intrigued by this incident.

            6. @Seduction Newbie,

              I didn’t realize I was that obvious. OK, I’ll quit dancing around the issue and just ask you outright. Basically, these PUA meetings sound like a great place to get in touch with my own “inner rapist” while cruising for guys. Can I do that without making anybody feel creeped out?

              Or, will I learn to not care who I creep out, as long as I’m getting a nice, tight ass to pound a couple times a week?

            7. @”Lanna”

              (With apologies to @SD for my blatantly stealing his line)

              You’re the best, @Lanna!

          2. @Seduction Newbie,

            Am I missing something here?

            WHEN THE FUCK DID HAVING AN INNER FUCKING RAPIST BECOME A GOOD THING?

            Seriously?

            IF such a thing exists in me, I’ll be doing everything in my power to keep it dormant.

            Your casual use of the phrase disgusts me.

  31. @ Seduction Newbie, FTW!?

    “, Dimitri was on the opposite end of the spectrum, trying to bring out the unapologetic “inner rapist” in men”

    I have no words…I am truly praying that it is merely late and I read your post wrong somehow but there are so many things wrong with so much of what you said….

    So, there’s a lot of “mind raping” and “inner rapist” and “mall sluts” in Dimitri’s teachings huh? That sounds absolutely horrible and he sounds like a horrible person who really just teaches others to be horrible people too.

    Oh, and can you please put “inner rapist” away. Thanks.

    @Lana,

    I’m curious about a chicken/egg scenario here. I’m wondering if PUA is a community where people with misogynistics tendencies gravitate to or if it’s kinda like the unicorn MMO machine where the unceasing dialogue, email blasts, and forum posting can convince otherwise reasonable people that unicorn moniez are real, and otherwise reasonable guys can get caught up in this mindset.

    1. @What the what,

      Re the chicken and egg question,@Seduction Newbie has already asked and answered that one when he said (maybe in his deluded world, rhetorically)
      “Do I look THAT desperate?”

      Let’s give it some thought– paying big,big buck$$$ to an acknowledged predatory sexual deviant to learn how to find his own ‘inner rapist’

      Yeah, that looks extremely desperate to me, like paying a shark to teach me how to swim and fully believing that I would somehow, miraculously, avoid ending up as shark chum.

      1. @fried egg, yeah, by his own admission @Seduction Newbie was angry at women before he got sucked into the disgusting world of PUA.

        I realize that I am just speculating here but…we’ve seen so many examples of people here who are just regular, good people but were able to get sucked into the unicorn moniez machine due to being in a vulnerable place. It gives me chills to think that it could be happening the same way in PUA… that some poor guy may just be having a hard time, feeling low, and these PUA douche canoes* can plant this ugly little seed that festers in their brains. No me gusta.

        *(to borrow a phrase from the droid’s Great and Wonderful [sole] Benefactor)

    2. @What the what, I think Dimitri’s been with the same girlfriend for several years. She’s very attractive, seems very intelligent, and behaves very sweetly. I doubt that if he was such a “horrible” person he would be in a long-term relationship with that type of woman. Instead, you are having a visceral reaction to the use of the word “rape” because, as Dimitri taught me, “FemiNazis have stolen that word from us and turned it into a bad word. We as men must take that word back and make it our own again.” I have awakened my inner rapist and kept him at bay. I draw on his energy when I must seduce sluts.

      Also, I’ll try to do my best to address the concerns you expressed to Lana. I have never had, nor do I now have, any “misogynistic” thoughts or tendencies. I used to be resentful toward women, which was NOT healthy, and Dimitri helped me overcome that. He taught me to instead feel pity toward them. He explained how pathetic their lives are and how I should thank my creator each day that I was born a man. He also taught me how to speak to women as if they are psychiatric patients … slow voice, steady eye contact, a lot of head nodding … that way they know that I find their irrational thought processes ridiculous. It worked for me and now I control women (not the other way around) and I love them dearly as inferior beings that I must protect from themselves, like I would a dog or cat.

      1. @Seduction Newbie, Hmm. Seems to follow the pattern of “I’m not racist, but [most racist statement you’ve ever heard]”

        I mean, you’re all “I’m not misogynist, but [most shockingly misogynist statement I’ve heard all year]” which means you’ve either been driven so far around the bend you can’t touch reality with a 10 foot pole by the PUA stuff, or you’re actually just trolling. Or maybe it’s both, I mean you’re coming across as so twisted I could use you for a corkscrew so you could be using your actual beliefs to troll, I suppose.

        1. @Melkor, you so badly want to prove I’m “twisted” that you created the most verbose, twisted-sounding paragraph you could. Anyway, this thread is getting a bit paranoid, don’t you think?

    3. @What the what,

      Hmm, no response for me from @Seduction Newbie, so I don’t have to be a sock puppet of a sock puppet anymore.

      I think PUA and MMO both attract some fully formed dirty birds and lure in some unsuspecting eggs. The claims and language lure misogynists to PUA and the greedy to MMO.

      Then you have the naive innocents. In MMO, these are just people who’ve heard some guy from Africa became a billionaire from his Internet projects, and MMO hustlers tell them they can do it, too. In PUA, I think these are guys who put woman-shaped objects on (figurative) pedestals and don’t deign themselves worthy of approaching them. PUA tells them to shift those woman-shaped objects off the pedestals and into the gutter. It’s probably an easier cognitive shift to devalue woman-shaped objects than to realize they’re not objects, they’re people.

      Finally, there’s the resentful ones who want more control over their own lives. “Escape from Cubicle Nation” and so forth appeal to people who feel powerless in and bitter about corporate life. PUA appeals to people like @Seduction Newbie who are resentful toward women, perhaps because of a perceived betrayal in an early relationship. Both promise to reverse your perceived power relationship. Don’t beg them/her for work/sex; make them/her beg you for work/sex. (Double whammy for sex-workers.)

      1. @Lanna,

        And the ones who have shown up here have all demonstrated that they can’t handle rejection. I suspect that’s a prime motivator.

        All that tricky psychological and hormonal stuff that accompanies attraction (their own feelings, I mean) is just too much for them. They don’t understand it, feel defeated by it, and try to just bulldoze their way through it. They clearly have no idea what doors they’ve closed for themselves in doing that.

        But being a loser and a helpless victim is obviously no hindrance to becoming a contemptible and useless lump of poison.

      2. @Lanna,

        YOU’RE A SOCK PUPPET??? I WANT TO BE A SOCK PUPPET!!

        1. @The Sock Puppet Formerly Known as Peter,

          We can all be sock puppets and also be German if we want. That’s the magic of the Internet. We can probably have girlfriends in Canada and be Alexa Smith on Warrior Forum, too.

      3. @Lanna, maybe he found out that he’s sad you weren’t actually a sock puppet and/or gay man pretending to be a woman who is too obsessed with logic (and his hypocrisy over being hit on by a guy)…or maybe he ran off to write his own creepy seminar about making your own sock puppet and seducing it?

        It is interesting how the PUA scene and the MMO scene have so much in common from the sellers’ perspective (re: methods/sales tactics/etc.). Don’t know why but I found that surprising.

        1. @what the what,

          Maybe you found it surprising for the same reason I found all this surprising — coz I already knew it but part of my brain decided that the rest of my brain just didn’t want to know about it at the moment please.

        2. @what the what,

          PUA scene and the MMO scene have so much in common from the sellers’ perspective

          I found it fascinating and insightful. We can see that what PUA and MMO have in common is something in common with cults and cult-like groups.

          ———-
          You have…
          1a. The Guru — this person, who is usually a guy, is the dispenser of special, Secret Knowledge. The Guru has charisma and can smile well and talk very well. (Or, if the guru does have verbally abusive qualities as some of them do, then he manages that part of his personality well enough to get people closely endeared to him before he starts making them feel worthless.)
          ———-
          1b. I Wish or I’m Afraid— The guru has a silver tongue. But the other reason why people will flock (like sheep) to hear the guru’s words is that he says things that people fervently wish to be true. Or–somewhat less often, the guru threatens and warns the people of things that people fear might be true.

          Look and see–in the words of every scammy con artist, in the words of every doomsday prophet, always it is the same. Always they are promising something that a person will will wish is true or warning of something that a person will fear is true.

          This works over and over again because our emotions are much stronger than our logic or reason. So the speech that will {always!} work best is that, that causes a strong wish or fear emotional reaction.
          ———-
          2. All of the guru’s immediate followers are the ones who give him their {false} social proof of his coolness, awesomeness and worthiness. And, in so doing, they re-enforce his power over them.
          ———-
          3. Money — almost everybody needs some of that to get by. Most times these groups probably do start up on purpose explicitly as a way to get some $$$ into the Guru’s bank account. But even if the gathering begins in a somewhat innocent, non-evil, non-give-me-all-your-moniez way… once the Guru realizes all he has to do is tell people to give him their money and they will… well… You’ve got to have a well functioning moral compass to resist that temptation. And by the time the cult is up and running the Guru has already gotten used to “being beyond good and evil” and generally not having to conform to the wider society’s social norms. So, the moral compass? The Guru threw that away many miles back when the group first started.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

  32. I just stumbled upon this thread and had to offer an anecdote of the first and thankfully last time I attending a Toronto Real Men meeting. I’ll make it brief. I was intrigued. I’d attended other lair meetings with minor success. The evening I went to the TRM meeting Dimitri’s topic revolved around how to basically date rape a woman without her pressing charges. It was almost like he was teaching us how to hypnotize our victims, take advantage of them, then take down the incident a few notches to prevent them from calling the authorities. The speech turned my stomach, but what was totally grotesque was how the guys at the meeting were just hanging off his every word, taking notes like crazy, and staring at him like he was God on Earth. It was revolting. It was like watching a slow-motion train wreck: I wanted to leave but could not. The final insult to humanity was a Russian guy that went by the moniker of “Pavel The Lover”. At first he seemed like a nice person. I was touched by his story (he had difficulty meeting women because he spoke with a slur and limped due to Multiple Sclerosis). He said that he hadn’t had sex in years until he started attending meetings, and was now a master seducer. Then I learn his technique–pull out his cell phone and flash photographs of his penis to teen girls on the subway until a whorish one responded and went home with him. He “demonstrated” his technique and I got a glimpse of the photo and immediately WALKED OUT. As for Dimitri, all you have to do is read the sick tweets he spews out @dimitrithelover to know just how deranged this man is. He is a disgrace to our gender and should be locked up and castrated.

    1. @Charles,

      Thank you for that comment. As far as I’m concerned that’s the benchmark for any of the pathetic creeps who show up here to defend that disgusting industry.

      @Newbie

      You wrote:

      “Dimitri felt men in the city were being overly Metrosexualized by spill-over from the large homosexual community and he had a civic duty to do something about it.” Among other things.

      The gay community is not responsible for your lack of testosterone. So far what you’ve written here has been lame sycophantic drivel.

      1. @Yakaru, Describing Dimitri as any sort of a “benchmark” gives him unwarranted credence. Also, I remember one other thing about the meeting. There were two off-duty cops in attendance. They said they were regulars at the meetings. According to the Toronto Real Men site, military and police get a 25% discount off the cost of courses, coaching, and meetings. It may explain why Dimitri never gets shut down or arrested. The TRM group is beginning to have a creepy similarity to Fight Club.

  33. Regarding All The Sick Fuck Dumass PUA apologists and adherents:

    I’m wondering
    1. How many actual unique IP addresses are in use
    2. How many actual distinct individuals are posting and
    3. If perhaps the real goal is just to make something that is obviously stupid bullshit appear to be something worth talking about instead.

    In other words, the PUA club looks to be doing nothing more than plain old-fashioned, full-on trolling.

    PUA: your arguments are fundamentally flawed and based on the false premise that women are somehow so intrinsically different from men that there’s it’s pointless or impossible to treat them as human beings. You conveniently ignore any arguments or evidence to the contrary, and that makes you 1) Stupid, 2) Wrong, and 3) Bigoted.

    The misogyny on planet Earth is so rampant, and has been around so long that it’s almost impossible to see.

    The way that you can tell if you have at least a tendency to think or act in a misogynistic manner is: if you’re a guy, and you think about women at all ever in any way. That’s how deeply ingrained it is.

    Instead of trying to do more PUA, ask Joss Whedon, “Why do you write such strong female characters?” (He’s introduced by Meryl Streep. If you’re a guy and you’re inner misogynist prevents you from being able to tolerate listening to Meryl Streep even for a minute, you can skip ahead 1 min 50 sec.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoEZQfTaaEA

    Also, there’s a thread somewhere where one of the PUA apologists states the word “rape” has been taken over by FemiNazis.

    So, the implication would be that the word used to means something different–something not evil?

    According to Online Etymology [etymoline.com]:

    rape (v.)
    late 14c., “seize prey; abduct, take by force,” from Anglo-Fr. raper (O.Fr. rapir) “to seize, abduct,” a legal term, probably from pp. of L. rapere “seize, carry off by force, abduct” (see rapid).

    “FemiNazi” and the concept it embodies is a very modern one. There were no FemiNazis in the late 14th century.

    The word “rape” has a negative connotation because it’s wrong to “take by force”. Why is that concept hard to understand? Have the apologists never heard of the Golden Rule? I doubt very many of them would appreciate if the tables were turned around–if some guy was talking about taking other men “by force.”

    Incidentally, I think that’s the hidden fear that drives homophobia–Straight guys aren’t necessarily threatened by gay guys. But PUA-type guys do feel threatened by gay guys because they implicitly assume that all gay guys will see PUA guys as prey in kind.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd, I agree with much of what you wrote. Specifically, the word “rape” is no different than the N-word. It has no place in any discussion about seduction.

      I want to make a brief comment on what @Seduction Newbie wrote above (and get your thoughts, @Wyrd, since you seem to be well-informed and logical in your analysis). He wrote …

      “I think Dimitri’s been with the same girlfriend for several years. She’s very attractive, seems very intelligent, and behaves very sweetly. I doubt that if he was such a “horrible” person he would be in a long-term relationship with that type of woman.”

      I met Dimitri’s girlfriend, and @Seduction Newbie’s observations are bang on. But, it doesn’t mean that Dimitri’s a good person. I’ve seen many vile sociopaths and misogynists score amazing girlfriends before. Some women have emotional scars from childhood which cause them to be apologists for various forms of douchebaggery. She also appeared to be very quiet and submissive, piping up only when addressed (with the exception of making a comment on how she “loves hentai gangrape porn”.

      1. @Charles, his “girlfriend” may also be acting that way in order to get a sweet cut of the profits. In other words, she’s not necessarily his girlfriend but acting the part in public to make some cash.

        @Wyrd, I was about to reply in very much the same way to @Seduction Newbie but you have done such a great job here…Also, I gave him more than enough rope to hang himself and show us who he really is and how he really thinks. I don’t feel the need to provoke him into saying more disgusting crap and further offending the female readership as well as the wonderful and fair minded men here.

        1. @what the what,

          **we’ve given him more than enough rope…

          “Geez self!” says I to myself. Way to fail at acknowledging the awesome commenting skills of the group…

    1. @SD, When I first started looking into the PUA stuff I genuinely tried to keep an open mind and thought that, perhaps, the most disgusting things I was hearing was the very vocal minority and perhaps there were more tame groups within the community. The crap we are hearing from the PUA apologists here are the more tame comments from what I’ve found.

      PUA is a dark and ugly place. Dazzle jesus indeed.

      1. @what the what, There is a strategy for stopping these guys- make sure everyone you know is aware of them. I tell friends about the PUA crap and the NLP nonsense all the time- I don’t think any of it works as advertised, but it is obvious when you know what you’re looking for, and it is a 100% fail proof way to spot a manipulative asshole.

        The PUA thing s pretty new to me; I was aware of it due to seeing the book (“the game”?) reviewed on BoingBoing, but the size of it kind of surprises me. It shouldn’t, I guess, but there you have it. I have two sons, and it’s another threat to be aware of. I really want them to reach adult hood with their souls intact, and this crap would have a lot of appeal to awkward 15 year olds. Which is to say, almost all of them.

        So, there’s my $.02; help out by letting people know these techniques are in use. I run into people trying them pretty often, these days. A lot of people saying things like “we have so much in common!” 45 minutes after they meet me. That seems like nothing, though, now that I am aware of what women have to deal with in a similar vein. The term “inner rapist” makes me feel ill. Seduction Newbie, YOU have been mind-raped, I think. Don’t you have a mom?

  34. PUA cultists truly believe they can only have what they want by taking it.

    Generally they’ve been socially awkward (nerdy!) men who have feared owning and being vulnerable with their desires. Most men get this and simply ask a woman out being willing to face the possibility she’ll say no.

    For the awkward crew, a “no” is blown out of proportion and devastates their weak-minded psyches. Then they get a hold of PUA materials that promise them they’ll get the sexual satisfaction and the prestige of rockstars without the “messy business of female emotional baggage.”

    So these awkward men are encouraged to become sociopaths adept at using psychological leverage to get what they desire.

    It’s not even on their radar that a woman would want to connect with them wanting nothing more than to be open and to feel safe enough to be with them. They really struggle with the idea that when a man isn’t needing anything or trying to lure a woman into his clutches, he feels safe to be around.

    They’ll never have any deep fulfilling, soul stirring relationships because the true “them” will never show up.

    …and spare us the crap about the dating frame. People did have had incredible connections and amazing fulfilling sex lives aeons before PUA showed up.

    Dazzle on.

  35. @SD

    I’ve been reading your stuff for a while, but I don’t really see the story here. You were asked to do an interview? *cough* What’s the big deal?

  36. Less than TWO WEEKS after this incident, Blogworld’s CEO/EGO, Rick Calvert, responded as follows on Danny Sullivan’s blog:

    “No I am not denying the email exchange that Salty published on his blog.”

    “However there are at least half a dozen people (maybe more) condemned as scammers on Salty’s site that are widely regarded as the most well liked, respected, and trusted bloggers in the world. I know several of them personally. They speak at our show. They are good honest people.”

    “That is why they speak at our show. Yet you believe one bat shit crazy guy who uses keywords to associate their names with nefarious activities over hundreds of thousands of people?”

    “However numerous people listed on Salty’s site are not scammers. They are good people selling real things and giving good advice.”

    NOW: Let’s do the math…

    1. SD posts emails from Blogworld expressing THEIR interest in SD doing a keynote at Blogworld. In that post, SD indicates his belief that Blogworld enables scammers. – May 18, 2012.

    2. Blogworld’s Rick Calvert explicitly says he does not deny email exchange in SD’s post. – May 28, 2012.

    3. Rick Calvert now suddenly calls SD a “BATSHIT CRAZY GUY” and says there are at least “HALF A DOZEN condemned as scammers that are widely regarded as…trusted…” and “numerous people listed on Salty’s side are not scammers.” – May 31, 2012

    Do the math: How did SD so *suddenly* become “batshit crazy” and which “half a dozen” and “numerous people” were condemned as scammers (that aren’t) in the LESS than TWO WEEK window just after this post?

    Remember, Blogworld contacted SD. They knew his work. There were NO substantial changes to the content between the date of THIS post and when Rick Calvert made his comments.

    Seems strange, doesn’t it?

    Were Blogworld’s Rick Calvert’s comments made in retaliation, because SD accused Blogworld of enabling scammers?

    Hmmm…

    Let’s not allow this to go unchallenged.

    http://marketingland.com/the-verges-scamworld-profiles-internet-marketing-that-you-should-avoid-12557

    Another sampling of Blogworld’s Rick Calvert’s “stylings” from that thread:

    “I have been working since I was 16 years old Jonah. Most of the time in sales from retail to b2b I am in my mid forties now. No one has ever called me a scammer. I have people I met and sold things to in my twenties that have become life long personal friends.
    They send me freaking Christmas presents.”

    There is something oddly surreal and out of place about that Rick Calvert diatribe…

    “They send me freaking Christmas presents.”

  37. The Secret and specifically the “law of attraction” fail on face value. For example, birth defects such as cp and mr. I can’t imagine anyone prior to their existence desired this. The 1st Amendment is a double edged sword and a good reason for the Droid’s cause. Let me know if I can help. Did you know a reputation model is in beta at Hypothes.is [sic] project? It’s a digital annotation model that may finish what Panda didn’t kill.

  38. Can I simply just say what a relief to discover somebody that truly knows
    what they’re discussing on the net. You certainly understand how to bring a problem to light and make it important. More and more people should check this out and understand this side of your story. I was surprised that you aren’t more popular because you surely possess the
    gift.

    1. @URL

      My best @Jack impression (done with love)

      ** ahem **

      Hi @URL, and welcome to saltydroid.info.

      I hope your spambot pingback filters don’t take too much offense, but maybe please explain to me how it is a bit ironical that your spam comment links to forum profile spam on a site with a tagline of “imagine better comments”.

      Good luck with the spambotting!

    2. @URL,

      My best @Jack impression (done with love)

      ** ahem **

      Hi @URL, and welcome to saltydroid.info.

      I hope your spambot pingback filters don’t take too much offense, but maybe please explain to me how it is a bit ironical that your spam comment links to forum profile spam on a site with a tagline of “imagine better comments”.

      Good luck with the spambotting!

    3. @URL, Thanks for simply saying things for us, but I’m not really sure about if I understood what you said, really. Also, I don’t understand about if you’re still surprised or not?

  39. My best @Jack impression (done with love)

    ** ahem **

    Hi @URL, and welcome to saltydroid.info.

    I hope your spambot pingback filters don’t take too much offense, but maybe please explain to me how it is a bit ironical that your spam comment links to forum profile spam on a site with a tagline of “imagine better comments”.

    Good luck with the spambotting!

  40. I think the truth about all these unemployable scam-fags is that they secretly want to be punished: ass raped by a large inmate…

    These scammers don’t have the balls to turn themselves into the police for a long term bed move… they say it only hurts the first time…

    Does that help?

  41. Greetings! I know this is kinda off topic however I’d figured I’d ask.
    Would you be interested in trading links or maybe guest writing a blog post or vice-versa?
    My blog addresses a lot of the same topics as yours and I think we could greatly benefit from each
    other. If you’re interested feel free to send me an email. I look forward to hearing from you! Terrific blog by the way!

  42. @rheumatoid arthritis home remedy

    @how to heal carpal tunnel syndrome naturally

    Check my relevance! There’s this one sci-fi short story by Corey Doctorow where the Internet dies not with a bang, but with a whimper. And all that’s left, as it’s dying, is a never-ending background froth of spam bots and bits of malware each firing meaningless drivel back and forth at each other.

    “Poignant. Very poignant.”

    Imminent Death Of The Net Predicted!

    Ah, damn, I think it’s catching.

    Last word to @rheumatoid … remedy, @how … naturally: If there’s a human back there somewhere driving you around: you oughta be ashamed. Surely you could earn more money flipping burgers or something. Also, you oughta be embarrassed. This site is very relevant to interests… but in the totally opposite direction.

    I guess this is the part where I say “To your success.”

    And then, after my vague, lackluster attempt to be hip, I should say something bad about hipsters? *shrug* I have always found fashion confusing.


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @douchenozzle,

      Yeah, I’ll bet $37 Clickbank info-product spammer scammers like you don’t talk too much about Blogworld being scammer central.

      P.S. Glytone.

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