139 Comments »

SD (author) said:
On deck …
Danny Sullivan
… people sensitive to guilt by association should try not to piss off The Salty Droid … just a thought … but I’m not a totally legit web guru I guess so what do I know.
http://saltydroid.info/syndicates-on-the-verge/comment-page-1/#comment-82515
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 2:32 am
and also …
FIRST!
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Danny Sullivan v. SaltyDroid … temporary restraining order.
I had a nice chat with Danny … he’s going to take some time to think about how to say what needs to be said. So that’s cool … and I can wait. Thinking before saying stuff is the best approach … and I’m sure everyone will agree this is a hella complex situation.
Right now is always a great time for positive change to happen.
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
@SD, Cool. Me and SearsCard will like to hear about it.
  +2
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 12:25 am
@SD,
That’s cool.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
Note to Danny Sullivan: @SD’s not bluffing. He never bluffs.
Please try being non-evil.
Yeah, it means you might lose all reputation and have to start over, but IMHO, in this case, that’s better than the alternative–having a big, negative saltydroid.info article posted for all time that people can bring up forever and ever and ever into the future.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +3
[Reply]

Norman Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 4:08 am
@Wyrd, Relax. Danny will live up to his word.
There is no downside at all to Danny for righting a hasty initial reaction, and actively supporting the growing effort to expose predatory scammers.
Doing so can only enhance a person’s reputation. You can’t help but respect a man willing to admit a mistake, and then rectify it. That shows character.
  +2
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 3:09 am
@SD, Also, mr. Sullivan needs to learn about real marketing-land ideas from using mr. Filsaime’s legitimate marketing services:

http://blastyourad.com/
I’m pretty sure Danny Sulllivan’s stupid SEO-tricks can’t get us unlimited hits to the website.
  +4
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 3:12 am
@Jack ::
… not to mention exponential power.
[Reply]

Alex Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@SD, You should do a post about what you consider to be a scam,like a detailed list of things,so that people can understand what you are really about.
Nobody that has a heart,even the most hardcore salesman,will have anithyng to complain about you exposing boiler rooms that screw old ladyes.
The thing is you are a lawyer.I dont understand how a lawyer is qualified to talk about marketing and business to the point of calling out names(exept for the obvious ones like pierce)
I did make some mistakes were i associated with the wrong people,but that is how it works,if you make a mistake you correct it,not everyone has time to investigate someone for months before doing business with them.
You dont need to tell people that you arent just a hater,if you draw a clear line people that live in reality will figure out for themselfs what you are,and if you are actually qualified to do what you do.
Something beeing a scam isnt always a hit or miss thing.
Even the SD is selling something,even if its just a viewpoint,and that he doesnt charge money doesnt mean a thing,taff shit.
Vanity, definitely my favorite sin
LOSER!! ::   -9
[Reply]

What the what Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
@Alex, I do think being a lawyer makes you qualified to talk about the law, criminal acts, fraud, RICO (which is a statute that lets you get to all participants in a criminal conspiracy — I.e., plan to commit a crime)….. Not to mention that vast area of law dealing with consumer’s rights. And then there’s that whole area of business law. And considering the people that would prosecute these scam artists are lawyers…..oh, and there’s an area of law that deals with the issues of tech, of doing “business” or fraud across state lines and using various forms of communication to perpetrate your fraud……Now that I think about, the law is kinda like an iPhone…”there’s an app for that”
Anyway, he isn’t talking about business. He’s talking about scams/fraud. And journalists don’t need to be doctors before they can research and report fraud in the medical industry/collection of medical bills, or be a banker before they can report on the fraud in the banking industry. You need to be an expert at research, be able to report facts, and care enough to put such a huge chunk of your time and life and reporting it.
I get it that people are skeptical about things when they are first introduced to them. What I don’t get is people coming here defending the scammers who have reported criminal histories and so obviously have a financial stake in making you believe them and then get all crazy on the droid questioning his motives/credibility.
Skepticism and analytical thinking are good. Nobody should just blindly follow anyone or anything. But take minute to figure out whether you are applying the same level of skepticism to the IM/MMO crowd as you are doing here……where the whole purpose of the site is keep your money in your pocket and out of the hands of fraudsters.
  +4
[Reply]

Alex Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:20 am
@What the what,
I do not defend the scammers,i dont understand how you can accuse me of that.
Aniway,in my opinion you are only a real skeptic if you are skeptic about the skeptics.
Most people run from one extreme to the other
You can go from total pussy to total asshole.
From believer to yelling scam at everithyng.
Some people just want to know were he exactly stands,and the best way to do that is to draw a clear line.
  -3

Jack Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 9:56 pm
@Alex,
“Aniway,in my opinion you are only a real skeptic if you are skeptic about the skeptics.”
To some point it’s true, but at some point doing it becomes a psychopaths favorite game-idea.
  +2

Luther Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
@Alex,
“in my opinion you are only a real skeptic if you are skeptic about the skeptics.”
Then maybe @whatthewhat is probably a real skeptic, because he’s skeptical about you, and you’re a skeptic.
I think then I’m qualified to also be a real skeptic. But mainly I would just like the certificate to show for it. Beause without that certificate my friends might be skeptical.
  0

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
@Alex,
“Nobody that has a heart,even the most hardcore salesman,will have anithyng to complain about you exposing boiler rooms that screw old ladyes.”
“I dont understand how a lawyer is qualified to talk about marketing and business to the point of calling out names. Except for pierce.
I don’t understand how uneducated scammers can label themselves “gurus” and “experts”, but hey, that does not appear to be in your best interest.
Nice fucking “framing” guy. Pierce is the only one to be called out, and boiler rooms are bad. Yeah, I never saw that fucking coming.
You’re definitely protecting someone’s interests.
  +4
[Reply]

Alex Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:28 am
@, i said people like pierce,not just pierce.
I dont understand the “framing” thing.Its funny that you are so convinced of yourself.You are probably sitting there going “yeah,ive got that guy”.
Why do you think i have an agenda?Just because i am skeptic about the skeptic?
  -2

Anonymous Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 11:42 am
@,
“i said people like pierce,not just pierce.”
“Why do you think i have an agenda?”
Simple! Pierce wasn’t named in the article.
  0

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
@Alex :: Re: Drawing a Clear Line ::
———————————————————
SCAM =
People who teach you how to do something they have never {and probably cannot} do themselves.
i.e. Ryan Deiss selling SEO products.
… or any IM/MMO “guru” teaching how to create a profitable and successful “business.”
ALSO SCAM
People who have never made any money outside of teaching other people how to make money (and you can too!).
ALSO ALSO SCAM (TOO)
People who use specific income claims, paid / affiliated testimonials (w/o full disclosure), “business(es)” in a “box,” and any other thing that “guarantees” success or profit beyond your “investment” in purchasing it.
These are — in almost all cases — not only a scam, but literally a fraud. If they operate in multiple states (i.e. over the interwebz), it is actually Interstate Commerce Fraud, and technically is not only a “scam”, but also a federal felony {no big deal}.
—————————————————–
{sort of} NOT SCAM =
People who teach you how to do something which there is abundant evidence they have successfully done themselves (preferably multiple times, consistently).
Even still, this is only a {sort of} not scam … because what worked for one person/group at one time/place may not be extrapolated to be a “law of success” that will work for you now.
For instance, I have read hundreds of biographies & autobiographies of {some of the most} successful entrepreneurs … ever.
However, in all of those stories, there is certainly not some “universal recipe” that defines the exact science of reliably building profitable businesses. Period.
Especially in different industries during different time periods. Period :: part deux.
Put simply: There are too many variables to make and/or test accurate hypotheses … much less to formulate theories / laws.
So if anyone tells you they have some super-awesome secret to big internet moneyz (or tiny classified ad big moneyz or big moneyz speakering or whatever) … be 99.9% skeptical.
Even if Jeff Bezos / Larry Page & Sergei Brin / Pierre Omidyar / Mark Zuckerberg / whoever is teaching you the “step-by-step secrets to getting rich with the interwebz” … be skeptical. Because while it may have worked for them, unless you are them — at the exact time & place when & where & how they founded their company — there is absolutely NO certainty whatsoever that you will be able to replicate their success (or even a tiny portion of it).
Period (the III).
Clear enough line for you?
WINNER!! ::   +11
[Reply]

Alex Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Doctor Mario,
Like i already explained,im not talking about the obvious stuff,maybe you are just not a good reader,or a smart ass.
I will never point out names because i dont have patient for that shit,people get paranoid and think you want to defend someone.
I want to hear an answer from SD,what he thinks about it.
Most people on here are about self help.Its just normal to ask what he thinks about what works and what doesnt when it comes to helping people,so that he is actually qualified to review a product or something.All i got from reading this site is “the secret is a scam”,yeah we got that.
Next point is marketing.I would like to hear what he considers legit and what scam marketing tactics.From watching the video it seems like he has something against e-mail marketing in general.
Im sure he has good intension to help people not getting scammed,but good intensions are not substitute for results.
Again,it would just be great if HE could go a little bit more in debt,thats my only point.It would do him a favor by people not bothering him about beeing a hater or something,and real critical people understand to what degree to take him seriously.
LOSER!! ::   -6

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:44 pm
@Alex :: I didn’t ask you to name names. I made broad generalizations you could reliably use to determine whether someone’s “info product” or “business” is a scam.
What @SD thinks about it is displayed for all to read in years of posts here. If all you got from this site is “the secret is a scam” you are either totally fucking retarded … or haven’t read jack shit here.
@SD’s results = eliminating these scammers’ ability to run frauds on the interwebz. Seems to me like it’s working better & better every day.
{ALL of} “Self{ish} help” = scam. Do they rigorously self-examine their materials & organization, and adapt their methodology based on measured results to consistently achieve better & better outcomes? Hurr durr … what do you think?
“legit marketing” vs. “scam marketing” :: Short answer (so simple even @Alex can understand it) …
Legit = don’t lie, don’t break laws. Anything else = scam (or worse).
“Real critical people” can definitely understand to what degree to take @SD seriously. Anyone who can’t is in category/ies (a), (b), or (c) [[see my other response to @Alex below]]].
If you are in category (a), I’m sorry to be so harsh, but you’ll get thru it if you simply keep reading the site & WAKE THE FUCK UP!
  +3

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:49 pm
@Alex :: btw, in @SD’s own words from this newer post ::
“industry of death” would be closer to accurate than “Internet Marketing” or “Self Help.” Strip people of their values :: and their monies … and you leave nothing but hopeless and unpredictable husks … the walking dead.
  +2

Melkor Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 8:29 am
@Alex “If you’re in an industry where 95-99% of the people are scammers” – uhm, do you hear the words that are coming out of your own mouth?
An industry where the people who participate are mostly criminals and their participation amounts to a crime isn’t an industry, it’s a crime. Unless of course it’s been defined as an industry through bribing legislators like the legalized loan sharking in the payday loan “industry” or pyramid selling – Mirr Romney loves himself some pyramids for example: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/04/mitt-romney-nu-skin-multilevel-marketing-schemes
  +1

Joe Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
@Alex,
“not everyone has time to investigate someone for months before doing business with them.”
Like maybe when you’re in a rush to get to potential targets, er, “customers” before they deplete their available credit card limits on other things, like food or medical needs.
  +3
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
@Alex,
@SD, You should do a post about what you consider to be a scam,like a detailed list of things,so that people can understand what you are really about.
What @SD does is he calls people out–he says: you did bad things! … And then low and behold he comes out and provides PROOF that the person did such and such bad thing.
@SD also satirizes and makes fun of the people he calls out. That’s just kind of an extra “value added” feature.
Nobody that has a heart,even the most hardcore salesman,will have anithyng to complain about you exposing boiler rooms that screw old ladyes.
The thing is you are a lawyer.I dont understand how a lawyer is qualified to talk about marketing and business to the point of calling out names(exept for the obvious ones like pierce)
Yeah some of them are obviously scammers. Could you show me someone profiled on this site that isn’t obviously a scammer?
But before you answer, there’s an important bit: This kind of scamming is a situation where guilt actually can transfer by association. And the reason why is that false social proof is part of the scam.
So, if you have strong reason to suspect that, for example, Frank Kern or Dan Kennedy or Naomi Dunford is a scammer, but you continue to support them or defend them in spite of this, then at that point you are knowingly perpetuating the scam by lying and giving false social proof. Make sense?
Lawyers know stuff about lawz. {fer realz!} So, lawyers, depending on their background, can be in a good position to know what qualifies as a crime. A good, relevant example would be price fixing. (It’s a crime. … In the very real, literal, and, if you have evidence, prosecutable sense.)
I did make some mistakes were i associated with the wrong people,but that is how it works,if you make a mistake you correct it,not everyone has time to investigate someone for months before doing business with them.
Sure, it’s true everyone makes mistakes. Sure you might wind up associating with the wrong people. That’s understandable.
How would you suggest fixing the mistake afterwards? I’d suggest issuing a great big public apology, swearing to never associate with those folks again, and then being really, really careful who you endorse in the future.
That makes sense, right?
You dont need to tell people that you arent just a hater,if you draw a clear line people that live in reality will figure out for themselfs what you are,and if you are actually qualified to do what you do.
Do not be so quick to judge The Salty Droid. Take your time. Click all around the site and read.
Something beeing a scam isnt always a hit or miss thing.
True. There are many shades of scammitude.
Even the SD is selling something,even if its just a viewpoint,and that he doesnt charge money doesnt mean a thing,taff shit.
It doesn’t mean anything? Really? So… charging money has nothing to do with it? That’s weird–because all the Internet Marketers I’ve ever heard have always told me that this whole Internet Business thing is about “the secrets of freedom and wealth”. They said it’s about “earning a passive stream of income”. They said it’s about attaining “financial security”. They always seemed really clear that “earning more money” was a really important part of it.
Funny thing about interactions that involve money–interactions involving money are at a much higher risk for corruption than interactions not involving money.
@SD’s trying to sell? Well, whatverz. Only in the loosest, broadest most philosophical sense.
Vanity, definitely my favorite sin
Indeed. It’s interesting that you chose that one because that appears to be the favorite sin of all of the cult-of-personality IM-MMO scammer, wankers that @SD has profiled here on the site.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +5
[Reply]

Alex Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 11:18 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Wyrd, A good, relevant example would be price fixing. (It’s a crime. … In the very real, literal, and, if you have evidence, prosecutable sense.)
First of all even you would agree with me that not all laws make sense,and that sometimes laws exist because of someones ignorance.I assume i am talking human to human here,not to a logical robot.
In china human rights are a scam too by law.
I dont consider price fixing to be a crime if you believe in private property.If its your business,your product,you have a right to select the price,because its yours.
People believe price fixing causes competition to stay away or some idiotic thing.I dont understand why,there is nothing stopping you to come out with your own product and sell it at 50$ instead of 2000$.
A real cartell is if i hold a gun to your head and say,no you cant sell your product to these people at 50$.The goverment is doing price fixing here by having a law that doesnt allow you to set your own price.
Thats why i ask about qualification,if you had some economic understanding you would understand that setting your own price does not hurt competition.
I agree with you on everithyng else you say,i just learned to be skeptic about skeptics
LOSER!! ::   -4

Alex Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Wyrd, And to be honest,its not that i dont agree with 95% of what SD writes about,its something i just cant put my finger on.
My feeling about it is that if you approach calling out names from even the slightest point of arrogance or emotional stance you will end up making a mistake.
By him drawing a clear line,reasonable people will be able to tell if he approaches what he does from a factual,i know what i am talking about point of view,or from an emotional one,”but old ladyes are getting screwed”.
Old ladyes got screwed even bevore the internet and making money products.
LOSER!! ::   -5

zipnar Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
@Alex,
Old ladyes got screwed even bevore the internet and making money products.
So that makes it excusable to turn the other cheek when it happens on the internet?
Do you realize how this one comment alone sounds like you are “defending scammers”?
  +1

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
@Alex :: Pretty cool how you @responded to everyone who addressed your “concerns” … except me … and in your response, you arrogantly (and/or emotionally?) called out @SD saying:
if you approach calling out names from even the slightest point of arrogance or emotional stance you will end up making a mistake.
Then you again reiterate your request for him to draw “a clear line.”
@Alex … are you fucking blind? You didn’t see that 400 word comment I left for you? Where I drew a very clear line — for all to see??? The one about SCAMS, ALSO SCAMS, ALSO ALSO SCAMS, and {sort of} NOT SCAMS??? It is highlighted yellow and says WINNER!! at the bottom … hard to miss.
Maybe you just missed that 1 cuz u iz bad reeder.
No problemo … just scroll up & read it. The line is clearly drawn. I’ve been around here long enough to see it with my eyes closed.
@SD doesn’t make mistakes because everyone he has ever called out is so obviously a fucking scammer that to think otherwise, you’d have to be either:
(a) a currently duped scam victim (sorry, but welcome back to your waking life! :-D … )
(b) in on the scam (or currently implementing a similar scam … )
or …
(c) as stupid / stupider than @Alex.
@Alex :: there are people on the peripherals of this giant Scamworld (waaaaay bigger / more extensive than the one profiled in the video) …
… epically gratuitous scammers (fitting within the aforementioned clearly defined “scam” lines) …
… who the Droid has been careful & cautious enough to {mostly} leave alone (for now) just because there could be some argument about whether or not they are truly 100% scam.
In other words, @SD doesn’t make mistakes because he doesn’t just profile scammers here … he only profiles such blatant scammers that there could be no possible defense of their integrity by any unbiased observer who rationally examines the facts.
Period (the IVth). How bout them carrot cakes?
  +4

Wyrd Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 12:03 am
@Alex,
{I have re-arranged the sections of your post that I quoted, but not with any intent to misrepresent your words.}
I agree with you on everithyng else you say,i just learned to be skeptic about skeptics
Being skeptical about skeptics is certainly a healthy attitude.
I dont consider price fixing to be a crime if you believe in private property.If its your business,your product,you have a right to select the price,because its yours.
Thats why i ask about qualification,if you had some economic understanding you would understand that setting your own price does not hurt competition.
People believe price fixing causes competition to stay away or some idiotic thing.I dont understand why,there is nothing stopping you to come out with your own product and sell it at 50$ instead of 2000$.
Dude. You need to take an econ 101 course or something. You need to find someone or some book or webpage to describe to you the basic underlying model of free market capitalism in it’s ideal state (ideal for the buyer, not the seller).
“Price fixing” is a technical term with a specific meaning. “Price fixing” does not refer to the act of you setting your own price for a thing that you’re going to sell. Generally speaking, if you make a thing or if you own a thing or if you have a service to provide, you can set whatever price you want for it from $0.01 to $1,000,000 or more or any price in between.
That’s not price fixing. Price fixing is when two or more people that sell the same sort of thing all agree that they will all charge roughly the same price for all those like things.
Whether this is good or bad depends on your perspective. If you are the one doing the selling then it’s awesome because you don’t have to worry about someone selling the same thing at a lower price. If you are the one doing the buying then it sucks. It’s almost but not quite the same sort of evil as a monopoly.
Now you also said something to the effect of “what’s to stop someone else from selling the same sort of thing at a lower price?” Well, yeah. kinda like duh. In order for one of these little price fixing gangs to be able to be effective there’s always some condition that limits the number of potential competitors to a very small group. And in that way, it’s pretty easy for that small number of people to all agree to charge the same price.
In the case of the syndicate, the thing that limits the number of people is mostly reach. Sure, you could go out and make a scammy frauduct and charge $2k for it. But if you’re email list only has five people on it, two of which are personal relations, you’re not going to make any (ill gotten) monies.
OTOH, Kern and all the other Syndicate d-bags each have large numbers of persons subscribed to each of their individual lists. {at least I was presuming they did. When I ran the numbers below, it came out pretty crazy. I wonder if their number of actual buyers is much smaller than they let on}
Then, whenever one of them has a new piece of sh*t that they want to make bank on, they first talk about it in private with other syndicate members. They decide on a price that’s close to the same as what the other a$$holes are charging, and then they make their Big Announcement.
Oh also–each of the other syndicate members announces that same frauduct to all of their lists.
Let’s use some made up numbers: let’s suppose there’s 10 syndicate members (don’t care about the actual number) and that Frank’s new frauduct is arbitrarily set at $3,000, and that Frank has 1000 people in his mailing list (again, don’t care about the actual number). Also, let’s say each of his syndicate buddies has 1000 folks in each of their lists. So if Frank and all his syndicate buddies hawk his frauduct to everyone. on all their lists, then that’s
1000 * 10 = 10,000
that will be offered the “opportunity” to buy Frank’s shiny new frauduct. If, after chargebacks are taken into consideration, 65% wind up as solid purchases, Frankie boy gets
$3,000 * 65% of 10,000 =
3000 * 0.65 * 10000 =
$19,500,000.
Now, if you or I tried that same crap, it wouldn’t work very well. Because
$3,000 * 65% * 0 = $0. (Also it’s evil.)
See, so it’s actually in the economic best interests of the producer of the goods and services to have as few competitors as possible. And agreeing to all charge the same price for something is a great way to do that.
The reality is: all those guys in the syndicate are in business together. But they maintain the public appearance of being in competition with one another. If they didn’t do that, then their testimonials for each other would carry no weight, and their iron clad grip over the market would start to crumble.
Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention: IM-MMO follows the pyramid scheme model. In this case, what that means is: you remember all those lists I talked about? Yeah, well for all the A-team guys, those lists are made up of B-team guys. (In this specific example that’s what affiliate means.) Those B-teamers, in their mixture of greed, hero worship, wishful thinking, and self-delusion, are also salespersons. Each of those B-teamers hawks the A-teamers frauducts to still more people. The B-teamers get a part of the profits too (well usually–sometimes they get screwed over–go figure). But the B-teamers cut is much smaller in comparison to what the guy at the top of the pyramid gets.
See? That’s how you make an “instant Internet Empire”. All you have to do is sell your soul. Also, it helps a bunch if you can smile and joke in a disarming friendly sort of way while telling utter lies and fabrications.
“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”
A real cartell is if i hold a gun to your head and say,no you cant sell your product to these people at 50$.The goverment is doing price fixing here by having a law that doesnt allow you to set your own price.
Ok, it’s called 1) go to google.com 2) type in `define:cartel’:
cartel
1. An association of manufacturers or suppliers that maintains prices at a high level and restricts competition.
I’m not trying to be rude. You really do need to take an econ course sometime. Or something that describes the basics of how free market capitalism works.
After that, check out the “advanced” section where all the liberals will tell you how it often fails. (But please note–I personally have not seen any workable alternatives. IMHO Socialism = Epic Fail)
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +4

Alex Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 10:12 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Wyrd,
Its funny because someone that knows something about free market capitalism should understand that “price fixing cartells” are nothing but an illusion.
The way it works is this,there are companyes and employees,employees help the company to compete in the free market,keyword HELP.
You can either decide to compete or to help someone else compete,so therefore all companyes are cartells by YOUR own definition,are you following?
If we are both car manufacturer and decide to do price fixing,from that point on we no longer want to compete,so we help each other and might even merge the companyes.
How can there be competition withhin the same company.
The IM sindicate is nothing more than a company with no clear owner,they all help themselfs out to compete like all employees do too,so they dont compete,and are therefore technically one company.How can there be any price fixing withhin the same fucking company,its an illusion by free market standards.
If we talk about the IM cartell,you could set up the owner as lets say frank kern,and all the other members as employees,whats the fucking point all people here are tryng to make about price fixing nonsense.What would change.
LOSER!! ::   -6

SD Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
@Alex ::
I was just gonna reply to you … and then I remembered that you are the totally raving with spittle and insanity nut job that I banned a couple of months ago for belligerent irrelevance.
I server issue let you slither back in here … but now my brain remembered so you are back out. And just so you know … I didn’t read a single word from all that shite of yours that got moderated out. Get a new habit … like smoking … or Magic the Gathering.
May all your unicorns be rabid.

Little Lanna Tixel Reply:
May 19th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
@Alex,
Aren’t you only allowed to comment in German?
If they became affiliates, they would just violate 16 C.F.R. Part 255 instead of the Sherman Act.
The FTC on free markets (emphasis mine):
When consumers make choices about what products and services to buy, they expect that the price has been determined freely on the basis of supply and demand, not by an agreement among competitors.
  +1

Wyrd Reply:
May 20th, 2012 at 11:16 am
@SD,
I banned a couple of months ago for belligerent irrelevance. [emphasis added]
so true. So very true. You have a knack for pithy succinctness that I think I might try to emulate.
. . .
server issue let you slither back in here … but now my brain remembered so you are back out.
Thanks for that. Without realizing what I was in for, I foolishly engaged. Attempting to talk/reason/debate with the entity known as “Alex” is very exhausting. Alex seems to have taken trolling to a high art form. (Note to Alex: that’s not a compliment.) Also, Alex cant rite wrds gud. I’m guessing he feels others’ arbitrary rules of spelling should not apply to him, and so he should be allowed to spell howsoever he chooses. … Just as you, Salty, may ban whosoever you might choose from commenting.
. . .
Get a new habit … like smoking … or Magic the Gathering.
Good idea, but if Alex plays Magic the same way he debates, I don’t think anyone is going to want to play with him. I know I don’t.
May all your unicorns be rabid.
I find the image of a rabid unicorn is very humorous. And I think your wish has already been granted. Alex’s total inability to reason or even form a coherent point suggests he’s been bitten by at least a few rabid animals already.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +3

Irwin Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 5:59 pm
@SD,
I don’t think Danny Sullivan is THAT confused about what and what isn’t internet marketing. Really.
All he’d need to do is ask his buddy ShoeMoney.
Danny Sullivan on ShoeMoney:
http://www.shoemoney.tv/shoemoney-show-1/
ShoeMoney seems to know all about internet marketing. In fact he’s an expert.
http://www.shoemoney.com/?s=internet+marketing
Perhaps Danny Sullivan needs to visit another little-known site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_marketing
Although I am sure he is familiar with this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_marketing
Seems it doesn’t take much to call yourself an expert these days.
Tisk Tisk.
  +5
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:04 pm
@Irwin ::
Well isn’t that just perfect?
Just what I needed … thanks.
Can anyone else remember any examples of him cavorting with the devils?
[Reply]

No Doubt Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
@Irwin, Seriously. That was from just TWO WEEKS AGO.
Maybe Danny Sullivan might like to explain the ethical legitimacy of this can’t miss “offer” promoted on the front page of the shoemoney website:
BUY BULK FACEBOOK FANS
“There are several different Facebook fan packages available ranging from 1,000 to 25,000 Facebook fans at an incredibly affordable price.”
Now, just why would anyone need “bulk Facebook fans?” Those won’t be real fans, since they are bought.
Oh, yeah, right…that is to convince and fool suckers into believing that products are legitimate and desirable. Something called, “Fake social proof.”
http://www.shoemoney.com/jobs/buy-bulk-facebook-fans-4
  +5
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 7:35 pm
@Irwin, Holy freaking crap – so to speak.
  +3
[Reply]

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
@Irwin, yes, Jeremy asked me to be on his show. Go ahead and watch it, please, and feel free to cite anything where I’m telling people to scam, do fake social proof, etc. If you watch it, you’ll see that I do the exact opposite. I’d think you’d actually be happy that I’d be speaking to an audience about that.
I also cavorted with Aaron Wall earlier this year. Had him come to one of our conferences to speak. He runs a paid membership program, training models, etc. A “proven system used by 10,000+ webmasters to produce hundreds of millions of dollars in profits.” That sounds like one of those nasty pitches you hear about.
Of course, SD was interviewed by Aaron, so does being interviewed by a site make him responsible for everything that site does? Or do you get judged by what you say. I sure hope it’s by what you say.
So yes, please listen. By the way, I like Aaron, and I’ve never heard a problem with any of his programs from anyone. From what I can tell, people seem very happy with his memberships.
SD, you’ve got my last email in your inbox. Like I said, I don’t understand why on earth this is a fight between us. I don’t like scams. I don’t suggest people do scams. It seems a waste of time and energy here.
Clearly, I shouldn’t have reacted badly over how The Verge equated all of Internet Marketing to mean a scam, by doing a post. My impression is that’s being taken as me somehow supporting the type of programs they do or making a dig at what they explored. I’m not. i’m really not.
There are people who do what’s been called internet marketing activities for years that have nothing to do with scams. The senior director of advertising sales for Vox Media — which owns The Verge — has a certificate in internet marketing. So is there a scammer on the payroll for the company that runs The Verge?
No, I don’t think so. There are these — in my view — entirely disconnected activities. Seeing one of them lumped in with the other, I reacted badly. And I apologize if that reaction was seen as somehow endorsing the other ones.
We’ve had debates in the SEO world about people call themselves SEOs but who just link spam, spin content or do other crappy activities. I’ve honestly never seen it happen in the internet marketing space until now. This is the first debate I’ve seen over it.
But I’m more than happy to give up that term, not try and fight for it to mean something else, if it has been so co-opted by bonus make money terms. Of course, several universities probably won’t change the name of their curriculum, but maybe over time they will.
  0
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
@Danny Sullivan, First may you answer these question, please (if you can answer them in reverse pyschological order it will be best):
1. Do you think Jeremy Schoemaker is a scammer or supports scams?
2. Do you believe in some world of non-make-believe that a trusted person can lend credibility to a person who shouldn’t be trusted?
3. Would you agree to do an interview with Kevin Trudeau?
4. How come my funny picture I put up onto my site isn’t drawing in the funny-picture links like Matt Cutts promised me it would?
  +5
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:03 pm
@Jack, I haven’t looked into what he’s been doing or not. I’ve known him for a long time from when he was in the affiliate space.
The second question seems a statement. Are you asking if a trusted person can lend credibility to a non-trusted one. Sure. But then again, if they contradict what someone says, no.
I have no idea who Kevin Trudeau is.
The last question basically says to me that you’re probably someone hit by Google’s penalties, perhaps by Penguin. You probably don’t think it’s fair that Google did something, and particular, since Matt Cutts heads the spam team, you think you can’t trust a think he says. That’s pretty common among a certain class of SEO, and especially among spammers.
But he’s also the top cop at Google. He sees crap, and stops scams, like you wouldn’t believe. I mean, I think you really wouldn’t. So perhaps if you’re commenting on a site that’s out to stop scamming, you shouldn’t be slagging off the main person at Google who’s in charge of doing that.
But that’s my take.
  0
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:34 pm
@Danny Sullivan,
I only made some comments on blogs (mostly this one) and put up the funny picture to try to get the links. But sometimes on my blog I get people with funny names like SearsCard and mp3 player who maybe now that you told me about it might be the spam-linkers.
OK about Kevin Trudeau. It’s probably because he’s not on the all SEO channel for you.
  +3

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:51 pm
@Jack, hope you see this down here. Now I know what you mean about funny names. Here’s my advice to people. Unless your mother named you SearsCard, don’t comment with that name. And so yeah, when you see those kinds of names, that’s typically spam.
  0

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:15 pm
@Danny Sullivan, I think the issue was you claimed you had never heard the term Internet marketing linked with the people cited in teh verge article….which is kinda totally unbelievable. Once that happened every word you said after that was suspect.
  +3
[Reply]

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
I hadn’t. Why would I make that up? I mean, what benefit is there to me in doing that?
Go back and listen to the VergeCast. It wasn’t like I sat around preparing some carefully crafted lies to tell.
I’d arrived at my airport, wrote a quick post with my comments about the naming issue, which I did after I’d emailed Joshua and not heard back but had gotten a tweet from the features editor that gave me the impression they really didn’t care about my concern.
About a minute after I posted, I got an email to come on the show. About two minutes afte that, they were calling me — as I walked from down the jetway, to my seat and so on. You can hear all that noise on the call.
So when they asked me about that, what time did I have to concoct something that, in turn, seems to sound unbelievable to some people.
I wasn’t aware that term had been used like that. I hadn’t seen my search results dominated in that way (and those that do, be sure you’re logged out of Google and searching in something like incognito mode, because you might find you have a much different view).
So I learned something from that article. And I reacted the wrong way, probably because after years of watching all types of mainstream press say that SEO is some big scamfest, it seemed like wow, now they’re coming for internet marketing.
What I should have reacted as was wow, I’ve heard of these scams, but I hadn’t realized they were pitching themselves as internet marketing, so spread the word.
My post did say it was a great article to have out there, that my disagreement was really only over that name issue, that I felt it was unfair to the legit folks out there. If I had to do it over again, well, that’s what I’d do. But I’d still be saying that it was a new one on me, because it was.
  +4
[Reply]

Dale Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:43 pm
@Danny Sullivan:
“So I learned something from that article. And I reacted the wrong way…”
Well, that’s a rarity. It’s not often (probably never) that anyone taken to task here ever has the backbone to clearly admit they were wrong.
How about a corrective tweet saying just that?
Just as importantly, how about a supportive post of your own, encouraging people to read the Verge article, watch the video, and help spread the word?
  +3

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:54 pm
@Dale, hope you see this, can’t see how to respond directly to your post but yes, I’m planning exactly that, a supportive fresh post exactly as you describe. I’ve been emailing with SD about that. I’d like to do what I should have done in the beginning. Early next week, I’m expecting. If it’s not up to snuff, you can hold me to it.
And let me add, I really appreciate you or anyone giving me the chance.
  +6

No Doubt Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
@Danny Sullivan,
You didn’t participate in that video as a public service. I’m sure you would not do a video with anyone and everyone who asked you. You no doubt look at who someone is, what they do, and think about if it would “benefit” you. That surely would involve, at a minimum, looking over their website and doing a little homework.
Questions:
1. Do you think deceiving people by artificially inflating your Facebook “fan” count is honest and respectable? (See the front page of the “shoemoney” site for an in-your-face example promoting that.)
2. Would you encourage those who trust you to follow the instructions of, and spend their money with, Jeremy Shoemaker? And by extension, others he might in turn shuffle them off?
We’ll all be waiting.
  +3
[Reply]

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:17 pm
@No Doubt, First — is the name from the band?
Second to your first, no, of course I don’t. If you watch the video, I’m pretty sure at one point I talk about social signals and why you wouldn’t want to do that type of thing. In fact, before I did the interview, Jeremy sent me a list of questions and honestly they all seemed very useful, good topics that people who want to learn about how to do search marketing right should know about. I was happy to spread that word.
As for the homework, I’ve known Jeremy for years in the space. I wasn’t aware he was apparently involved in some Syndicate that, until I read The Verge article, I wasn’t aware of either. But I’ve done interviews with someone like Aaron Wall. Read some of his posts. We don’t agree on many aspects of how to approach search marketing. But if I only spoke with people I agreed with, well….
As for Jeremy, I don’t know his programs. I’d encourage anyone thinking about plunking down money on anything to think very carefully about it. I’d be searching for the person’s name, along with the word scam. I’d be wanting a money back guarantee and some evidence that it’s really honored.
  +2
[Reply]

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:48 pm
@No Doubt, let me add something.
I knew Jeremy back when he first started as an affiliate and got big in the space. This was years and years ago. We’d do panels on being with affiliates and search engines, and he was a natural choice.
Later, his site took a life of its own, he had this big following, and occasionally he took potshots at SEOs, mainly as link bait. But I was also kind of tired of the bait, so I stopped engaging.
I really haven’t kept track of him over the past few years. I do recall him having a “Shoemoney System” at one time, but I had no idea what was in that. I still don’t. I’m not even familiar with what he’s selling at all.
That’s why when you ask if I’d recommend if anyone by from him, my response is do your homework. I haven’t looked at his product, and I don’t want to say to you yes or no unless I’d really looked at everything.
It sounds like from those here who have looked that it’s a big, fat no. So trust that. As I’m learning, that’s what this community is here for. In fact, when I said do a search plus the word scam — it’s exactly these types of pages that I hope come up, to give anyone pause if they’re pondering buying some useless program.
I also haven’t looked at his products because I don’t recommend those kind of products. Nor have I encountered any professional marketers who’ve told me wow, one of these things really did it for me.
I’ve mostly encountered the SEO-oriented pitches, usually the giant long letter, that type of thing, and I hate them. I especially hate them, because I know there’s nothing they’re going to offer me about SEO, and yet even I can read them and think hmm. And if they can be that persuasive to me, heaven help the people who get sucked in.
As I’m also learning while being here, and from the article, a lot of people have been tragically taken in by these programs. I honestly hope they get wiped out so they don’t harm others.
Back to Jeremy, when he approached me about doing a video, he’d mentioned that they were cleaning a lot of things up and changing focus. I took that to mean that he was getting away from old kind of do whatever it takes attitude I’d remembered. So that was another reason I thought OK, this video might be worth doing.
And the questions I got in the video, they were all clean. What I discussed, it was all good stuff, helpful stuff and not stuff that should have gotten anyone in trouble.
Anyway, that’s what I can tell you. Like I said further below, I also have to head off. I’m not kidding — I’ve been awake for two days straight. If I’m lucky now, I’m going to get about an hours sleep before I have to leave for my flight.
I wouldn’t spend that time here if I didn’t think it was important. What I thought was most important is that I’m not oddly finding myself in a fight with a site that I’d want to be telling people to check out. It’s much more align with the advice I normally give people.
  +5
[Reply]

Luther Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:00 pm
@Danny Sullivan, Hello Mr. Danny Sullivan. You’re famous! A lot of people listen to every word you say. I have read about you since the first computer I got.
That computer was almost as expensive as the first ebook I bought because a bunch of people on the internet all said the ebook would change my life. The way it changed my life was then I got a broken leg and I couldn’t afford to go to the doctor because I paid all my money for that ebook.
It was ok though because a broken leg doesn’t last forever but like the ebook people told me, “Your future is forever.”
Mr. Sullivan, I was wondering if you are a shoeintologist. Are you? On the Shoemoney website, there is a special important section called, “Shoeintology AKA The ShoeMoney Mantra.”
I figured since you respected Mr. Jeremy Shoemaker enough to want to be in a video with him, then you might be a shoeintologist and go to the meetings with him.
I went and copied some of the things from that Shoeintology Mantra. I would like to know if you believe in these things Mr. Sullivan, and if you think other people should believe in them.
Also, can you tell me what it means by “implied endorsement” and “fake social proof.” I’m not good with those fancy words, I just leave it to the famous people like you to help us figure out who to give our money to. Thank you for not steering us wrong Mr. Sullivan.
Shoeintology AKA The ShoeMoney Mantra (the best ones):
- Exploit peoples passions for profits.
- Don’t trust anyone.
- All you have in this world is your balls and your world. Dont break them for anyone.
- ALWAYS be on the offensive.
- Catch a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will steal from your bucket.
- YOU are the badest motherfucker alive.
- Bring a nuclear bomb to a knife fight.
- Anyone who doesn’t say money doesn’t buy happiness look at the fucking smile on my face.
The one about the fish I think means whatever the title of your ebook is, don’t put any of that information in it, cause then people won’t buy all the other ebooks you want them to think they need.
  +1
[Reply]

Luther Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
@Danny Sullivan, Hello Mr. Sullivan again,
Here is the official page of the special ShoeMoney Mantra, in case you want to print it out and frame it for your wall:
http://www.shoemoney.com/shoeintology-aka-the-shoemoney-mantra
  +1
[Reply]

Danny Sullivan Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
@Luther, I don’t have an ebook.
No, I didn’t review the Shoemoney mantra before agreeing to be interviewed. When I gave an interview to the Wall Street Journal today on the new Google Knowledge Graph, I gave it despite Rupert Murdoch having overseen some really nasty things.
In other words, if you think there are people being sucked in and screwed over by Shoemoney, they weren’t going to get that out of my video. They were going to get some pretty straight-forward advice on how to succeed with Google by playing by the rules.
As for his mantra, I took a look now, and these items are good:
Build Sites and Services YOU would use.
Prioritize the profitable projects.
Build websites for people, not for search engines.
Be willing to do what others will not.
People forget quickly. Google never forgets.
Nobody is irreplaceable
The more successful you become the more people pray for your downfall.
Live in the moment. Your whole life can change in a instant.
When you accept the impossible you start to find solutions.
These I especially didn’t like, but that’s me:
If your going to mess with me – Do your worst because I will do mine.
Don’t trust anyone.
The more invested a person is the question the fear of saying no is more then than the fear of the consequences
All you have in this world is your balls and your world. Dont break them for anyone.
ALWAYS be on the offensive.
Catch a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will steal from your bucket.
YOU are the badest motherfucker alive.
Bring a nuclear bomb to a knife fight.
Anyone who doesn’t say money doesn’t buy happiness look at the fucking smile on my face.
These, I could see some people liking, depending on who they are. They don’t resonate with me, but they might with others:
Exploit peoples passions for profits.
Get busy living or get busy dieing.
Money NEVER sleeps.
Everytime you do something well you get better at it. Everytime you do something shitty you get worse at it.
Its a short walk to the cliff but its a long fall down.
Also, I’m headed off to sleep now, and then I’m on a flight for 12 hours back to the US, so I can’t answer more questions.
  0
[Reply]

Jim Edwards and Danny Sullivan Interview Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:19 pm
@Danny Sullivan,
Is there any place we can hear the straight forward advice you gave when you gave it with Jim Edwards? (Would like to hear that interview) – Thanks.
P.S. No need to give us the Yanik Silver bonus interview that came with it, apparently.
  +1

Irwin Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:28 pm
@Danny Sullivan,
I’ve been a long-time ready of your blog, Aaron Wall’s and the Salty Droid. In my humble opinion – I’ve seen more legitimate SEO clout from Jason than most so-called “seo experts” in the “search marketing” industry.
Anyway, your claiming not to know what “internet marketing programs” are is the point – not anything Aaron Wall has, or has not said. At least Mr Wall has had the guts to call out Matt Cutts and yourself recently regarding “negative seo” and whether it even exists or not.
http://www.seobook.com/negative-seo
No problem here. Nothing to see folks. Move along now.
Yah – Okay.
Seems Mr Sullivan, that you are either a little slow to pick up on these things, or you are not as honest with your readers as you’d like to appear to be. Personally, I haven’t decided which one yet.
Have a pleasant flight.
  +4

Anonymous Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 8:46 am
@Danny Sullivan,
Comparing Shoemoney and the Wall ST. Journal?
You must think everyone’s an idiot…
If you think the two are comparable in even the SLIGHTEST bit then you have no business offering advice to anyone on any subject
Come down off the cross, we need the wood
  -1

Anonymous Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 8:42 am
@Danny Sullivan,
you agreed to be on his show…by doing that you endorse the CONTENT of what is put out on all his SHOWS…not just the show you’re on
You endorse him by being on his show…have you been to his website much?
Watch his show much?
…both are loaded with ‘internet marketing’ offers from scammers.
Danny you can’t lay down with these guys and condemn them at the SAME time
…are you that stupid…or willingly COMPLICIT
Go read ‘ShoeMoney’s’ site and get a good wiff of the shit he’s shoveling…it’s obvious why you got so offended
Fuck Matt Cutts too…he ain’t innocent either
  +2
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 2:31 am

Dos Equis Man said:
There’s only one product I would pay to see that involves Mike Filsaime and Andy Jenkins, and that would be raw amateur footage of them trying to converse with the opposite sex in social settings.
The advertisement video for it could be a 30 second short clip of one of them performing the yes ladder on a girl only to finally squeeze her number out of her and then immediately forward it to the boiler room that is ‘just waiting to deliver value to her around the clock’.
Operator: “Hi, if you aren’t interested in boning Andy, we do have Mike and Eben available.”
45-Year-Old Cougar with two teeth: “I don’t get wet on any of them”
Operator: “I’ll march down to my marketing department and overnight some lube to you, we’ll make the investment on this, but you have to be willing to fuck hard”
45-Year-Old Cougar with two teeth: “Okay!”
  -2
[Reply]

DickusBiggus Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
@SD,
What I can’t wrap by head around is how someone in a boiler room would be willing to financially destroy another human for $10 an hour.
10 bucks an hour? To destroy someone?
This kind of thing isn’t justified at any amount of money, but for peanuts? You could make more money driving a cab or waiting tables.
I don’t get it….
  +1
[Reply]

Dr Geek (formerly "It could happen to anyone" but sick of typing it) Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
@DickusBiggus,
I could be wrong, but I don’t think the boiler room sales guys are on $10 an hour; they’re all on commission…and, according to reports, hard-core drugs. They therefore have an incentive* to get as much as possible. The $10 an hour guys are the poor shmoes delivering the “training” (such as it is).
*incentive provided you want to ensure you fully leverage your soul to the devil**, of course.
**may be metaphorical (in case there’s any of PZ’s acolytes still lurking about)
  +2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
@DickusBiggus ::
Dr Geek is right.
There’s basically three classes of workers ::
a) salesman — they make okay money … more than they’d make at BestBuy
b) closers — they make ridiculous money … like $15,000 per month.
c) fulfillment {aka “coaches”} — they make jack crap
A high priority is keeping the fulfillment people in the dark about what the sales people are saying and doing. In Utah especially … fulfillment is often handled by another company entirely from the one that makes the pressure sale.
[Reply]

mirele Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
@SD, a lot of these guys selling at the boiler room outfits are young, recently returned Mormon missionaries who might already be married and have a bundle of joy on the way. And they might also be going to school as well. When you’re desperate for a job, even $10/hour is better than being unemployed and bringing in nothing. Some of them have better than average sales skills, honed by rejection after rejection during that two year excursion better known as the Mormon mission.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

RT Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 10:03 am
@mirele,
Your absolutely right … two years of rejection on a mission creates young guys who have zero fear of rejection.
A lot of them do get married and start families young and I think that further creates urgency to do whatever they can to put food on the table.
When I was at BYU all the summer sales companies did heavy recruiting on campus (pest control, alarms, etc) and then they flew these guys all over the country for the summer. I never saw or heard of any of the boiler room jobs but I am sure they were probably there.
  +4
[Reply]

Behind-the-Screams At PMI Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Take the grand tour, and see where you, too, can kiss your money goodbye:
(Text below video states: “These examples are not typical.”)
And…If that didn’t grab you, put your right hand over your heart and with your left hand, pull out your MasterCard, because here comes Theodore Roosevelt on behalf of PMI:
(Text below video states: “These examples are not typical.”)
  +1
[Reply]

Clark Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
@DickusBiggus,
A friend on Wall Street, where peddling crap is even more profitable and ruthless, told me that a common sentiment appears to be “I’ll do this for a while to make money, get out before it corrupts me and live a decent life after that”. That way, the pitchmen don’t have to face up to the fact that they’re being horrible people but can pretend it’s all just a farce, a mask they put on for a few years and can take off afterwards with no adverse aftereffects.
I can’t say for sure that IM salesmen are playing the same mind tricks on themselves, but it might be one way to cope with the reality of their jobs.
  -2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
@Clark ::
What else about what you don’t know can you be telling us?
[Reply]

Keith Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
@Dos Equis Man, Then Eben Pagan comes in and shows them how it’s done.
  -1
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 6:35 am

Melkor said:
Holy crap, Filsaime’s barely literate – shouldn’t he be able to afford a ghost writer who can construct actual English sentences with words that mean things in them? Jesus Christ, English is my second language and the way he writes grates like nails on a chalkboard to me so I can only imagine how horrible it must be for you natives.
The most interesting thing is the sinking realization that his 7-figure code and all the other stuff has in fact been through editorial oversight because they do have marginally better writing and things that sort of resemble sentences in them.
WINNER!! ::   +12
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 8:49 am
@Melkor,
These guys are huge frauds and everyone with 2 braincells
They rent exotic cars for a day for their shoots and give the impression they own it, same with luxury houses, same thing the porn industry does renting a mansion for a day so it gives people the illusion that it’s ‘high class people’ fucking in porn, but the people with two brain cells know the reality of what these people are and what they’re doing.
They fake their ass off 24/7 just to scam enough people to live a middle-class life. That’s pretty well-illustrated by Eben Pagan’s wedding party with all of the cheap tacky crap in the photos (yes, that’s a rich man’s cake in those photos alright, fuck, that is pathetic for throwing a party with more than 4 people!).
None of these douches are genuine.
You know, the real reason a lot of these people probably fail at ‘making money online’ after buying crap like these guys sell, isn’t because they aren’t ‘smart’ enough to copy paste the crap with a new face like these guys do, but that only the biggest part-scumbag / part-actor could pull off the aura of seemingly genuine enthusiasm and ‘benevolence’ that these guys feign.
That’s the difference I see between Frank Kern, Eben Pagan, the ‘pros’, and then the B-team guys. The B-team guys, you can just see how uncomfortable they are being total fucking scumbags. Wannabe scumbags.
I don’t know whether to feel sorry for those guys, or wish I lived in Ancient Sparta where such weaklings were thrown off cliffs at birth.
  +4
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:12 am
@, Self-correction
Eben’s birthday party pics. Not the wedding one.
  +2
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:47 am
@,
For god’s sake, he’s supposedly got employees: http://mikefilsaime.com/about-mikefilsaime/staff/ or seriously, a competent ghostwriter is reasonably cheap on the various freelance sites. Even the cheapo fiverr route and just pay someone to edit what you’ve already written would be reasonable.
This, from someone who claims to be making sales through a primarily text-based medium is not at all reasonable.
  +2
[Reply]

Uh Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:59 pm
@Melkor, Mike probably appreciates your helpful advice.
  0
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 7:59 pm
@Uh, Heh, if he was the type to take helpful advice from me, he’d have burned his Ayn Rand books, gotten exit therapy from the Rand cult and then used some of his ill-gotten gains to go take “Business 101″ at his local community college long ago. Obviously, that hasn’t happened.
  +2

Some guy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 3:03 am
@, So I Googled “Eben pagan’s birthday party pics” and one of the search results was this bizarre blog. WTF?! Haven’t laughed so hard in a long time.
http://illuminaticonspiracy.blogspot.in/
  +1
[Reply]

Fantastico Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 5:21 am
@Some guy, GREAT find! What a roster. That’s like a hall of infamy linking all the familiar IMers to their illuminati counterparts. Loved it! Thanks for posting the link.
  0
[Reply]

Lanna Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 11:42 am
@Some guy,
Jack found that one last month, and we determined I am secretly accompanying Robert Johnson Rich Jerk-Tony Rezko on his door-to-door canvassing efforts.
  +1
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 7:20 am

Rafael Marquez said:
Hey Gnome,
Facts are neither right nor wrong, they are just facts. You can spin your interpretation of the facts any way you want, but that still doesn’t change the facts themselves. So, if the facts show that you use shady techniques to separate people from their money, then you can interpret that as being a “savvy marketer” or as being a “fucking scammer.” Your interpretation, does not change the facts.
  +6
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
@Rafael Marquez, Well said.
  +1
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 8:42 am

Shit Storm said:
Please note the # of times Mike filsaime mentions the Verge article and Jason Jones AKA salty misrepresents the facts and implies that he has been wronged
Yet no lawsuit…why is that Mike?
I know this has been brought up by me in the past but it’s worth noting
If any legit businessman was maligned as Filsaime states a lawsuit would be dropped within 24 hours seeking restitution
Mike Filsaime does nothing…WHY?
Mike Filsaime knows full well who he is and what he has done to innocent people in the name of ‘internet marketing’.
This ends in indictments…count on it
  +3
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
@Shit Storm, No kidding. Good lord, even actors sue over stupid tabloid stories more frequently. On that note, this reminds me of the Lindsey Lohan downfall when she kept claiming that the gossip sites were writing defamatory articles and claiming she was looking into suing them…and never did. (and then there was usually a video or photo of her doing what the gossips said she did). I’ve learned that the louder someone claims they have a “really great case” against someone the more likely they are full of it.
I would hate to see the droid have to deal with the expense of a trial (though he probably knows enough lawyers (hell 99% of the people living in his home are lawyers -I’m not sure about the dog) that he’d be ok. But I so, so, so, wish one of these guys would actually sue. Just one. I don’t want to divulge strategy, but the discovery requests I could see him making….and the reach he would get through them…so pretty, brings a tear to my eye.
  +2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
But … I don’t like how that argument doesn’t run both ways. These guys really do defame me … in the most ridiculous ways … see eg.
http://saltydroid.info/naomi-dunfords-death-threats-and-hate-crimes/
So am I guilty of the accusations for want of suing as a response?
SuperLawyer Marc Randazza didn’t sue Crystal Cox when she went all cyberfreak on his wife and daughter …
http://randazza.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/how-crystal-cox-is-helping-to-prove-the-strength-of-the-first-amendment/
And I’m sure that we all wish :: most especially me … that Kevin Padrick hadn’t sued Crystal Cox.
It’s not that I wouldn’t sue if it was the right move … but it’s almost always the wrong move. The civil courts are a form of welfare for people who can’t resolve their disputes {to keep gang wars from breaking out}. They don’t function well in America partly because too many people think of them as step one in the conversation. Public services should not be utilized by those not in need of them.
When someone defames me … I punk them.
Here’s the real point :: if they are innocent … why have they never defended themselves? Why can’t they even participate in the fucking conversation? A conversation that has been going on for YEARS mind you.
They have the right to remain silent … and they almost always do.
[Reply]

What the what Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
@SD, Good points. I’m glad you brought that up because I didnt think of it from that side (clearly). I guess the difference, as I see it, Is that the only response these guys ever make to any of your articles or statements and now this Verge article, is that it’s so defamatory. It’s their go to response and pretty much all they have to say on the subject and they say it over and over and over and over again.
. Maybe I’m making a distinction without a difference. But there is a tone in their claims of being the victim of defamation, the frequency, the incredulousness they feign over and over again.
I agree, the fact that someone doesn’t sue over something doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Sometimes a law suit isnt worth it, for multiple reasons. And maybe I am just making up a special rule for these ass hats because it makes me sick to see them act the victim and cast aspersions on your articles and statements because I know they are criminals. But I guess it’s kinda like porn, I can’t quite define why it’s different (at least to me) when Kern & Co make these claims of defemation that they don’t act on, but I know it when I see it. (maybe all the fraud?)
But, yeah, I’m glad you added that counterpoint. My comment, as it stood, was left wanting when applied to non scumbags and I wouldn’t want to inadvertently dump on someone who has actually been a victim of something and not taken legal action. Can I take a mulligan?
And btw, anonymous above was me…sometimes my name gets stored, sometimes not
  +1
[Reply]

Shit Storm Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
@SD,
If you were falsely accusing me of scamming and causing my legitimate business irreversible damage I would have sued you DAY 1.
Any legit business would do the same
I get the argument that people don’t sue for many reasons but I don’t believe for a second these guys are innocent
They don’t sue because they know getting inside a court would end up being a far worse ass fucking than this blog will ever be
Legit companies, which is what they claim to be, wouldn’t hesitate to shut you down and drag your falsely accusing ass into court
Legit companies put too much time, money and sweat into getting into the black to allow some Robot blog to trash their reputations if it wasn’t true…not in a million years
I don’t know why you don’t sue but I would guess it had something to do with wanting them to throw the first punch…irregardless your not a cash producing company and any profitable company would guard their reps because their lives depend on it
  -2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:59 pm
@Shit Storm ::
I thought I asked you to introduce yourself to me … btw?
So what happened to that?
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 10:55 am

Dr. Duke said:
So selling fake Bizops and stealing money from the elderly is no biggie but over hype what your gym shoes do the FTC suddenly gets a spine.
http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/skechers-settles-deceptive-ad-case-ftc-40m-140577
The only way this would even be close is if Skechers sold you the $75 shoes and when you complained that they did not give you a great ass they would then charge you 20 grand to join a mastermind group. When that did not work and your cards were maxed out they would say the shoes did not work because you did not believe in them.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]

mirele Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
@Dr. Duke, Jeezey Creezey, where is the FTC, dammit? If they can go after Sketchers for their sketchy advertising, why the HELL can’t they go after the “French for trade union” people for their bogus frauducts? Why not?
HELLO FTC! At least exercise shoes do serve the function of being a pair of shoes. The crap that the Syndicate churns out has no value whatsoever, except to line the pockets of those at the top of the heap.
God, but our government can be stupid.
  +4
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 11:30 am

Spike said:
Here’s the short version:
Earth to Mike(and friends):
You are so fucked…
  +3
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 2:54 pm

McLaughable said:
These douchebags so typically attempt to shift attention away from themselves, onto exceptional cases where some of their deceived customers have still somehow managed to make some money despite the deception.
None of that makes ANY difference.
It’s kind of like a bank robber saying, “Well, on the way out of the bank, I showed some of the people in the lobby how to be bank robbers, too, and some have since made the money back I stole from them, and a little profit.”
  +2
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 5:27 pm

SD (author) said:
The voting is not really working … in case you hadn’t noticed.
But the site stayed up this whole time … so that was totally sweet!
[Reply]

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:09 am
@SD :: Is the site getting traffic-slammed that much? Great!
The last time I remember that happening was off the Naomi Donefor Shit Storm saga … and that was because of her dumbass sending so many people here off the “death threats” blooper.
How does this traffic surge compare to that?
It is certainly way less trolly at least …
  +2
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:19 am
@Doctor Mario ::
I decided this January to stop looking at the stats so as to keep my priorities str8 … success is much more dangerous than failure.
But I peeked out of curiosity last week … and no … it didn’t quite reach “The Salty Droid is going to kill all the women” levels … which I think is pretty fucking sad for America and the supposed revolutionary glory of social media. Another good reason not to look at stats.
[Reply]

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:35 am
@SD :: Wow, dedication! I don’t have one iota of that type of commitment … to anything.
Even on sites I run purely for fun & entertainment, I still check the stats … like … every day. Maybe I just am too into graphs & stuff.
In that case probably I should start a blog about “Doctor Mario is going to kill all the women” and I will get bonkers traffic and the social medias will be all abuzz until my hosting acct gets banned. Hmmm. /thinking about it …
  +3
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 6:01 pm

Gordon said:
Jason,
I know you do the whole Droid act thing to create an entertaining edge to what you’re doing, but I just wanted to thankyou for snapping me out of the hypnotic spell of some of these vultures. You are truly making a difference
Also, if you have anything on Eben Pagan, I’d like to hear it as he sounds a little more devious and schemier than some of these other people
Thankyou again
WINNER!! ::   +11
[Reply]

Informatron 2600 Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
@Gordon, Meet Eben Pagan, syndicate member:
  +4
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 6:38 pm

mathguy said:
Dammit Gnome, you are supposed to run your nonsense ramblings by “The Boss” Jenkins before sending. We went over this.
The only thing more idiotic than this is that Butterfly Marketing 2.0 stunt you pulled. “Version 2.0″ must have mean adding even more misspelling, grammar abuse and ramble than the first version. You probably nearly did lose money printing and shipping all that unintelligible nonsense for $29.
  +4
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 7:47 pm

Dudeman said:
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Hey SD,
Maybe you’ll think this is a bit twisted but all of this has given me a new insight into how these guys operate and I now have a much better understanding of their brand of marketing. I could, if I wanted to, set up something exactly like what is being outlined on your site and in Scamworld.
Not that I would, I actually do believe in karma.
I just want to clear up one misconception that I see being repeated by people that don’t really know what they’re talking about. People seem to be under the impression that these guys aren’t making that much money. That’s where you’re wrong. These guys make some good money. Whether or not it’s an honest buck is open to interpretation but it’s certainly a buck (or more!). When you sell a $2,000 product to 10 people, who then promote affiliate links (which earn you 70% of that original price, not counting OTOs) to hundreds of people, you’re going to be making some money.
I’m all for exposing scams. My favorite scams to expose are related to psychics and mediums, spiritual healers and the like (gotta love the classics!). Never the less, it’s deceptive for people like the author of The Verge article to lump all internet based marketing into the same category.
If internet marketing were such a scam then the top online retailers in the world, companies like Ebay and Amazon, wouldn’t be offering affiliate and referral programs. The truth is that marketing on the internet is not only the future for nearly every business but is the most effective, and most affordable, brand of marketing in existence today.
Sure, there are scammers, there always have been and always will be. It’s unfair, however, to lump an entire industry in with people who are knowingly and admittedly defrauding their customers. I’m sure you’re intelligent and self aware enough to understand this fact and I’m not attacking you.
I guess it just irks me when people lack an ability to think for themselves and jump right on the bandwagon of the most recent sensationalist journalism piece. The truth is that this article may have made some waves but it is far from sinking the ship. As the real world and the digital world continue to merge things like marketing on the internet will simply become a common, accepted and ubiquitous practice.
I can speak from experience that there are some honest, hard working, and great people who just happen to be very effective at marketing online. Only a small percentage of people will market “Make Money Online” products or programs. Most of the people that do are new and looking for a quick way to get rich. Many of the people I’ve had the pleasure of working with happen to provide a genuine and valuable service to businesses all over the world. They help small businesses receive the traffic, customers and revenue they need to survive. Others create real, legitimate products that do exactly what they claim.
Of course, saying something like this is probably going to get me labeled as a scammer (it’s already happened in other recent discussions).
People who fleece old ladies and paraplegics for their life savings should suffer a fate which isn’t proper to describe. Other people, the majority of people who happen to work in marketing based on the internet, have earned what money they have made. Most people are honest and are not trying to scam anyone. I know some of them and they are great people, some of the nicest people I know and they are great to work with. I suppose I shouldn’t take The Verge’s article personally but I do, not because I’m a scammer but because it cheapens the hard work that I know these people do.
I also find it rather funny that, in order to comment on The Verge’s article, I had to submit my email address, full name and zip code (very nearly got put on their email list as well!). I took a quick look at their privacy policy and, lo and behold, they collect user statistics and sell them to market research firms and third party advertisers. They provide this information, in part, so that these advertisers can provide relevant advertising to the users of Vox Media. It makes me wonder what the true purpose behind all of these product reviews really is.
It almost sounds like a case of people in glass houses, if you ask me. I find it hard to see how someone can justify smearing an entire industry when they are not only part of that industry but are leveraging the increased web traffic this article has caused for financial gain.
I think our society suffers from an abundance of soap boxes and a serious lack of mirrors.
I’m going to shut up now, I could go on all day. I’ve said my part and that’s all I wanted.
Expose the frauds, I’ll always support that, but give credit where it’s due.
LOSER!! ::   -8
[Reply]

SD Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
@Dudeman ::
Great comment … it reminds me of the time someone asked me to eat some dog shit.
[Reply]

Dudeman Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@SD, I’m not really sure what you mean by that but you can take my comment any way you’d like. Your well thought out and intelligent response really tells me everything I need to know.
Just don’t complain the next time someone lumps what you do in with the likes of 4chan.
LOSER!! ::   -7
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:01 pm
@Dudeman, It’s true – Amazon.com is exactly just like Frank Kern. I forgot about it for too long until now.
  +2
[Reply]

Dudeman Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:05 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
@Jack, They’re not the same, that’s what I’m pointing out. The Amazon affiliate program still falls under the category of internet marketing. It’s one of the major affiliate programs used by internet marketers of all types.
Apparently Amazon is a well known resident of “Scamworld” according to all of this.
I’m starting to fear that intelligence is not really a strong suit around here.
LOSER!! ::   -4
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:50 pm
@Dudeman, Internet marketing = Frank Kern et al. It’s good that you finally realized about your non-intelligence, too. You can find out more about it with this comment from Oldtimer which bears repeating/copy-pasting as many times as possible for people who can’t understand things that are too easy to figure out:
“Ok, I’ll bite, and I’ll say it:
“I think that every single product in IM is a scam.”
Yes, I do. In fact, let me repeat that:
“I think that every single product in IM is a scam.”
“Internet marketing” is just another sasquatch or Loch Ness monster. It doesn’t exist, except in your mind, and perhaps on your credit card statement.
“Internet marketing” is code for MMO (make money online) which is an “all inclusive” faux netherworld of fantasy and schemery. It’s inherently parasitic.
I’m not going to debate the selling of SPECIFIC, defined skills or SPECIFIC, defined services (e.g., writing catalog copy, being a contract web designer). Nor am I going to debate the selling of specific, tangible widgets (e.g., can openers, toilet paper holders) that may be ADVERTISED for sale via the internet. None of that qualifies as “internet marketing.”
I’ve sold millions of dollars worth of physical widgets by ADVERTISING on the internet. However, that wasn’t “internet marketing” either, any more than having your business phone number in the phone book makes you a “phone book marketer.”
The internet is just one medium, not some alternative universe into which you simply plant yourself, and wholly and completely exist by intercepting what comes and goes. That’s unsustainable nonreality.
“Internet marketing” IS absolute, escapist fantasyland. Anybody residing there needs to get a new address, asap.”
  +2
[Reply]

Regrets Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:18 pm
@Jack, I see you were answering the question while I was trying to answer for you and you did a much better job of it. My apologies.
  +1
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:35 pm
@Regrets, Your answer was funnier.
  +1

Dr Geek Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 4:52 am
@Jack, @SD et al.
While it took me a good long while to wrk out this distinction, I’m now getting heartily sick of it being thrashed out. I’d suggest it’s the difference between “Internet Marketing” and “marketing on the Internet”, with the latter being what legitimate businesses do, and the former representing the likes of Frank Kern, Jeff Walker and the Gestalt entity that is Belcher Deiss?
Is there any way we could define this as the convention in reference, so that every time this old chestnut gets trotted out we can link back to it and end the discussion there? It’d be great if it was also possible to get The Verge on board as well…
  -1
[Reply]

Regrets Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:12 pm
@Dudeman, I think what @Jack meant is “get a clue,” but he is too much the gentleman.
I’ll try to help.
The people featured on this site are called internet marketers. They are all scammers. Because all internet marketers on this site are scammers, one could be forgiven for thinking that all internet marketers are scammers. That is because, as pointed out, they are.
Amazon.com, on the other hand, is called Amazon.com or sometimes just “Amazon”. Ebay is called Ebay. Usually “com” is left out for some reason.
Those who have websites with Amazon affiliate links are called “Amazon affiliates”. Even Amazon calls them that. Look on the website. The link says “Affiliate program” not “internet marketing program.”
JC Penney has a website. They call it jcpenney.com, or sometimes jcp.com.
Facebook tends to call itself, for some strange reason, “Facebook”. Yet a pattern does seem to be emerging.
Internet marketers who are not scammers are often called “delusional” until they wise up and call themselves by their website or company name. that is when they realize that internet marketing as a term, is equated to scamming, therefore the number of internet marketers who are not scamming has dwindled to just under zero. Soon there will be none.
Hope this helps.
  +1
[Reply]

Oldtimer Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:44 am
@Regrets, That is a terrific addendum to what I previously had to say.
No legitimate business embraces vagueness.
  +2
[Reply]

Glad I Was Broke Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 11:57 pm
@Dudeman,
How about some names of those “honest, hard working, and great people who just happen to be very effective at marketing online”? Why not be specific?
Mike and Frank both are saying that the article was just plain slander, but fail to provide any legit proof of legit “customers” who actual benefited from the products.
Everyone keeps on saying “no, there are other legit marketers”, but no one says who they are are…
Why, I wonder?
  +2
[Reply]

Doctor Mario Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:24 am
@Glad I Was Broke :: Fo realz!!!
If they want to prove they are so effective, is it really that hard to just cough up some easily verifiable URLs of their big-interwebz-money-infinity-traffic-websites???
If it was me, I would just be all like:
“To the dumb bitches @ The Verge & Salty Droid, you say my shit is scams and don’t make my customers big online money … read em & weep:
http://hightrafficURL1.com — my student Joe Everyman
http://hightrafficURL2.com — my student Tom Bluecollar
….
http://hightrafficURL27.com — my student Mike Moneybags
http://hightrafficURL28.com — my student Sally Simpleton
etc
….
Between the lot of them, those students of mine are each pulling in MORE than the $586,981 income claim I used on my sales page … and those are only a few examples! I could go on & on for days.
So who’s the scam now you broke-ass journalist punks???
If I just saw a list of websites with super high GPR & super ill Alexa rankings … where the sites were actually selling real stuff … hell, even if a few of them were fellow MMO info-frauduct-peddlers … I would shut up permanently and buy my ticket to the $$$-show.
But we will never see that. Because there are 0 success stories! Not “just a few” or “only a couple” … but literally zero.
@SD has proclaimed it here many times, and in my direct experience hounding these guys & trolling their launches … I have never (not once) been referred to any real, independently verifiable “success story.” Not even one! Closest thing I’ve seen is a successful … affiliate. Nice.
If you’re not in the A-team running IM/MMO scams, and you are in any way following in the footsteps / following the “advice” of these crooks, you are not making any money online. Game over.
  +1
[Reply]

Dudeman Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 10:30 am
@everyone, I’m just going to reply to all of you right here, rather then spend my time in repeated cyclical arguments. Trying to argue with you guys reminds me of trying to argue with religious fundamentalists.
First off, I don’t know any of the people that you keep mentioning, I’ve never met them and I’ve never touched any of their products. Are these “Gurus” a scam? Probably, most gurus are, whether they’re yoga gurus, spiritual gurus or even just people like Dr. Phil. I’m not defending these people, I don’t know them and I don’t care.
It is, however, a bit presumptuous on your part to take an entire industry, one in which nearly every large company is a part, and label it a scam. Further more, you go on to say that this industry should change its name simply because a few mental deficients decided to twist it to their own gain.
Let’s say I started a website about video games, one that hosted Amazon affiliate links. I give away a free Skyrim guide to help build an email list. I keep an eye on the Diablo 3 publishing date. When it launches I send out an email to my list, one that has my Amazon affiliate link. Maybe 10% to 20% of the list buys Diablo 3 with my affiliate code and I make money. That is internet marketing but it’s not a scam at all.
The problem I have with what you guys keep saying is that you have it backwards. These guys are NOT internet marketers, they’re just scam artists and con men. To be a marketer you need to be promoting a legitimate product or service. It doesn’t matter if you use commonly accepted marketing methods to promote your scam, you’re still a scam artist.
If I put on a lab coat and went around giving out fake medicine for $300 a piece, would you say the medical field is a scam? If I put on coveralls and went around pretending to fix heating units for $1,000 a piece would you say that repairmen are a scam? If I put on a red sports coat and pretended to be a valet so I could steal cars would you say that all valet services are a scam?
My point is simple, yet it seems you aren’t getting it. Just because these con men have started calling themselves “internet marketers” doesn’t make it true. An entire industry shouldn’t have to change it’s name, or constantly defend itself against ignorant people, just because a few criminals have co-opted the title of the industry.
I’m not going to give you any names or URLs. I don’t need to prove myself to any of you and I don’t want anyone harassing myself or the people I work with. We all sell legitimate products and services. We all make good money doing it. We all work with and for real people and businesses and all of our clients and customers are incredibly happy with the work we do.
Do you all really believe that it’s impossible to make a legitimate living working for one’s self on the internet? If so, I can understand that, I used to feel the same way. The concept is simple, however, you just take the skills you apply to the job you have working for someone else, quit and start working for yourself. It wasn’t a scam when you had a boss and it’s not a scam when you are the boss.
The idea that the 90%+ of people who perform some sort of marketing on the internet need to change the title of their industry and defend themselves against a small percentage of known criminals is just ludicrous.
You can treat me like a Scientologist if you want, that’s really up to you. You should, however, stop bad mouthing something which you don’t understand. The fact that some of you need to back peddle and give me the whole “Marketing on the internet isn’t internet marketing” argument proves, to me, that you know you’re wrong.
I understand that this is SD’s thing, it’s his hobby, or business or whatever he wants to call it. I can respect that and I don’t really expect to change what he does or how he does it.
All I’m saying is that it’s unfair to categorize an entire industry as a scam when a small number of criminals have co-opted and corrupted the name of the industry.
I also wanted to point out that The Verge likes to bad mouth marketing and, at the same time, collect user statistics to sell to market research firms and let third party advertisers pay for the privilege of sending ads to their readers. It seems that everyone has glossed over that point.
Scamworld is simply sensationalist journalism meant to increase the readership of a relatively generic tech review website. It has worked, however, and that’s what I’d call EFFECTIVE INTERNET MARKETING!
  -1
[Reply]

Dr Geek Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 11:26 am
@Dudeman,
I think I shall refrain from responding as I fear my reply might be less than civil.
  +5
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:33 pm
@Dudeman, Wait. So you mean Aaron Wall – big supporter of this site – doesn’t understand all of it, too? I always knew he was the big idiot.
  +4
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
@Dudeman, You should make an Internet Marketing site about your arguments.
  +1
[Reply]

Rule of Thumb Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
@Dudeman, When you find yourself making a blog comment addressed to “@everyone,” there is a very good chance that YOU are the one who doesn’t have it right.
  +2
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 2:46 pm
@Rule of Thumb, Sooo, the response you’d get on the Warrior Forum if you went there and called all of Internet Marketing a scam for the five minutes the thread would stay up would mean Syndicate-style IM is a legit thing that legitimately exists rather than unicorn pixie dust? Your argument from popularity is invalid.
IM as practiced by the syndicate is a sham – the content publishing model outlined by Dudeman isn’t, your desire to de-legitimize everything that could possibly fall under the Internet Marketing umbrella as defined in Wikipedia and by Harvard’s curriculum notwithstanding. It’s stupidly hard and like most publishing will fail within 3-4 issues, but that’s true for all small press publishing whether you’re doing a poetry magazine for 20 subscribers at Southwestern or you’re doing a fanzine for your local SF club.
It also doesn’t cost more than time read the blogspot guidelines for how to write a good blog and then hitting “start a free blog” to get started. Or tumblr which seems to be the platform du jour, then you can start following Seth Godins’ advice to compete for attention and trust by providing trustworthy content that catches attention just like – oh, The Verge is doing on a much grander scale.
  +3
[Reply]

Dudeman Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
@Melkor, There’s no point. They’ve made up their mind. They’re not going to attempt to understand anything, they just like talking shit. That’s how the internet works. One person says something and a thousand people repeat it.
Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
  -1
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 8:51 pm
@Melkor, It’s true about it not being a good rule of thumb because of not all contributing thumbs weighing the same. I think Luther would tell us probably that Dudeman is missing his thumb.
  +3
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 9:29 am
@Jack, Maybe the problem is that Dudeman doesn’t have his thumb on the _scale_? Just because the model he outlines is legit doesn’t mean that he is, or that he’s actually following it himself because actual publishing in an area where you’re a subject matter expert is bloody hard work and doomed to failure for most people.
Attention is in short supply and getting it is a matter of being outrageously lucky, an attention whore or relentlessly focused for long enough that you build an audience through sheer sustained presence. Well, if you’re going to do it full time, that is – if you’re just doing a hobby newsletter and are satisfied with a hobby income to cover hosting costs, then it’s easy since you can write a free blog on WordPress or tumblr and make zero monies to cover your zero costs, or scale up a bit with a self-hosted wordpress on a domain and aim to make $15 a year to cover domain + hosting.
But you can’t sell realism, even when realistically, most people shouldn’t be in business for themselves until they’ve at least gone through the “how to start a business” material on SBA.gov.
  +1

Luther Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 10:33 pm
@Jack, Hi Jack. Thanks for saying what I was thinking. If I don’t have to type it, then I can keep thinking.
  +1

Dudeman Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
You guys make me laugh, you’ve all presented some very intelligent and thought provoking arguments. I’m just going to say three words and then go back to ignoring all of this.
Haters gonna hate
LOSER!! ::   -7
[Reply]

Joe Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
@Dudeman, Thanks for clearing up any remaining mystery (none) about where you’re coming from. Don’t let your lack of credibility hit you in the ass on the way out.
  +2
[Reply]

Dr Geek Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 6:24 am
@Dudeman,
…and scammers gonna scam. And post self-justifying doggerel stuffed with fallacious reasoning and self-serving aggrandisement.
Please stop using oxygen.
  +2
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 9:51 pm

What's an Internet Marketing? said:
From Jim Edwards way back when…(google search)
“==> A FREE Gift (bribe) for you!
Below is a short survey – it should only take you about 2
minutes to complete and email back.
As a thank you (*bribe*) for filling out the survey I will
send you a FREE Gift — two interviews I did with two of
today’s top Internet Marketers: Yanik Silver and Danny
Sullivan.
(You will *love* this one!)”
Anyone have a copy of the Danny Sullivan and Jim Edwards interview where they talk about not talking about Internet Marketing? The two top internet marketers! Yanik Silver and Danny Sullivan.
WINNER!! ::   +9
[Reply]
# 16 May 2012 at 11:11 pm

recovering punch drinker said:
Hey Salty,
Your work is brilliant. Your thoughtful writing has been really healing for me. To name it what it is…the long con, brings an awareness of how demanding it is to find something meaningful to be doing with my life instead being involved at any level with this kind of shit. Thank you so much for making this all so crystal clear…there is no justifications nor evading the facts, it clearly is what it is. It is sad to see what has become of the “human potential movement” – greed has taken over, and everything is for sale, even the starving kids in Africa. What a disgusting display of mediocrity.
Thoreau said the finest gift a man can confer upon his fellow man is to rise to the height of his own being – thank you for helping me to not waste my life.
WINNER!! ::   +7
[Reply]

Kevin Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
@recovering punch drinker, That was a really great comment. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
  +2
[Reply]
# 17 May 2012 at 6:07 am

Mitch said:
There is no way in hell that Danny Sullivan has never heard the term of “internet Marketing”. You now have no credibility whatsoever Danny.
  +1
[Reply]

Anonymous Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 6:48 pm
@Mitch, You misunderstand his position. His memory may be selective, but the claim is that he’s consistently heard of and thought of The Syndicate with Kern et. al. as Bizopp/MLM/Pyramid scheme pitchmen whereas what he does, what Aaron Wall does, what SeoMOZ, SeoBook, Search Engine Land, PPC.bz etc. are doing is Internet Marketing, so it pissed him off that the Verge wrote a feature that had as premise that Internet Marketing was nothing *but* bizop/MMO/MLM/pyramid schemes, thus inadvertently throwing a life raft to the Syndicate with a thoughtless tweet.
I don’t for a second believe that he hasn’t heard of the Syndicate guys being referred to as Internet Marketers, but I do believe that human memory and confirmation bias being what they are, he’s mentally done a /search-replace/”Internet Marketing”-”Make Money Online ” with every Syndicate pitch he’s come across. We’re very good at selectively interpreting facts we come across in a way that’s the least damaging to our egos, so I’m prepared to believe that he’d mentally cross out “internet marketer” and write in “obvious scammer” so he wouldn’t have to go to the trouble of examining the company he’s keeping for uncomfortable associations.
  +3
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 9:11 pm
@Anonymous, That one from you is just a so-so sly-promo for PPC.bz via trojan-horse-word insertion, but it was a good try from you.
  0
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 9:15 pm
@Jack, However, PPC.bz can get big, big credits for being outrageously hilarious.
  0
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 9:20 pm
@Jack, Aw crap, my name fell out of the comment field. Is the .bz site a part of the Syndicate or similar then? I’ve only ever come across them linked from the comment field here and it looked decently informative and willing to call Deiss a fraud for selling SEO info. If my perception is mistaken, I apologize.
  +1
[Reply]

Jack Reply:
May 17th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
@Melkor, Honest mistake it is then. From looking at sidebar “Marketing Blogs” up on the ppc.bz site it’s more close to the tactical-scammers like:
* Fake spyware/antivirus PPVPlaybook-David likes to do
* Ryan Eagle who provides the big-paying bizop-offers to affiliate-scammers for facilitating people into the b-tier, c-tier Utah boiler-rooms.
* Amish Shah who makes some appearances here on SD and maybe closer to Syndicate-ideas in him trying to make people believe tactical scamming is legit.
  +1
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 8:36 am
@Melkor,
‘s cool. And I agree that confirmation bias or maybe selective hearing could explain how/why Danny Sullivan can manage to say he’s never heard of IM being associated with scammers and the Syndicate.
However, @SD did also hint that there might be a whole article on Danny in the future so… we shall see (maybe).
Anyway, I wanted to ask you about your handle. It’s a good handle. I suppose it’s in reference to the Tolkien character? Melkor Lord of the Rings [wikia.com]
See, for a moment I was thinking it might be in reference to the much more obscure Melkur with a “u”: Melkur – Doctor Who [wikia.com]
The handle “Melkor” is plenty cool. It’s just the other “MelkUr” would’ve been way cooler on @SD’s site since the description goes:
The word Melkur was literally, “a fly trapped in honey”. The peaceful atmosphere of Traken rendered them immobile and harmless. Several Melkurs attracted to Traken. Most decayed without causing any longterm harm. They became like stone through the immobilisation.
See, the specific properties of the planet Traken are such that evil can’t move. Yet for some reason the planet seems to attract them “like moths to a flame.” So sometimes some random evil being will show up there and then it can’t move, can’t speak, can’t do anything. Eventually the creature dies.
My mind drew a connection between PR agents of scammers asking Salty Droid for an interview and the “moth to the flame” effect of planet Traken.
(Yeah. I’ve watched Doctor Who since I was 12ish. Behold my geek-ness!)
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  +2
[Reply]

Melkor Reply:
May 18th, 2012 at 9:39 am
@Wyrd, Tolkien to the core, have been since I was 12 and read Lord of the Rings.
Ah, ooops – transactional dishonesty of the scareware/splog/flog variety is never cool. I should have looked beyond the post calling Deiss a crook and seen the case of pot calling out kettle because ultimately, they’re fishing in the same victim pool.
  +1
# 17 May 2012 at 6:06 pm

SD (author) said:
I’d like to talk to someone who purchased “Mike Filsaime coaching” through Prosper. Hit me up at the email listed below … I’ll keep your secrets secret.
[Reply]
# 30 May 2012 at 12:53 pm
» Chris Brogan {almost} in Scamworld said:
[...] He didn’t read the whole thing! He sells himself as an expert on Internet Marketing :: but two weeks wasn’t long enough for him to read a feature article on a major website calling out his whole “industry” as 21st century snake oil? I guess reading is hard for Grogans like writing is hard for Gnomes. [...]
  0
# 31 May 2012 at 3:39 am
» Chris Brogan in Scamworld said:
[...] He didn’t read the whole thing! He sells himself as an expert on Internet Marketing :: but two weeks wasn’t long enough for him to read a feature article on a major website calling out his whole “industry” as 21st century snake oil? I guess reading is hard for Grogans like writing is hard for Gnomes. [...]
  0
# 31 May 2012 at 3:50 am

Robert said:
I just have 1 question…..If Frank kern is scamming me, how come his course “Mass Control” helped me make more money in other niches. And I have never heard anything bad about Mass Control from people who have bought it. That’s not a scam…..
And David Wood? Really? Now I have been in Internet Marketing for 6 ears and I learned more in just the Inner Circle of David Wood’s products than the last 6 years. They work…..Not a Scam…
And so what if these guys cross promote each others products. It doesn’t mean they are scams. Mike Filsaime has been on credible T.V. shows and news shows.
Yes they launch tons of products. The internet changes every year. You have to keep up with them, and these guys have good launch product ideas that keep with that. Nothing wrong with that.
And if these guys are always scamming people why do people keep buying their products over and over. You would think they would learn….that’s because they sell good products….PERIOD!
  -1
[Reply]

SD Reply:
November 9th, 2012 at 12:47 am
@Robert ::
Well :: I just have one question for you then. If they’re helping you so much … hows come your site doesn’t get any traffic?
[Reply]

Wyrd Reply:
November 9th, 2012 at 1:03 am
@Robert,
I just have 1 question…..
It seemed like more than one to me. Maybe you meant one multipart question.
If Frank kern is scamming me, how come his course “Mass Control” helped me make more money in other niches. And I have never heard anything bad about Mass Control from people who have bought it. That’s not a scam…..
How much more money? Which niches exactly?
And so what if these guys cross promote each others products. It doesn’t mean they are scams. Mike Filsaime has been on credible T.V. shows and news shows.
The nature of the specific cross promotion, if you could take the emerald sunglasses off for a minute, is that of a cartel that manipulates prices artificially. How much did you pay for Mass Control? What if someone else sold something that was a a lot like Mass Control but for 1/10 the price? Why doesn’t that happen? Because all the guys that sell that stuff have simply agreeed with each other to set a certain price. That’s not competition. That’s the opposite of competition. It’s called price fixing because it means the potential customer, in this case you, gets totally screwed on the price tag.
Yes they launch tons of products. The internet changes every year. You have to keep up with them, and these guys have good launch product ideas that keep with that. Nothing wrong with that.
Generally speaking, the information they offer could be plunked into one of three buckets. Thusly:
1) general, tried-and-true business advice — (but this information could be gotten out of a library book, it just wouldn’t have that same flare)
2) really, hyper-specific “game the system” style tricks that might work for a limited time, and that might or might not be applicable to your specific niche(s). These tips you probably couldn’t get from a book, granted. But the real question should be: do you want to employee a lame technical exploit just to get a Rank 1 Google result (or whatever)? Sure you jump in with a “yes!” but think about it. The trick, whatever it is, is actually going against the spirit or intent of whatever the rules are concerning how a page gets ranked. So it’s inevitable that Google will fix it at some point. Then you’re trick won’t work. And how much did you spend for it? And supposing someone finds out about your activities. In a worst case scenerio you could have your reputation destroyed and your pages de-listed. Ouch.
3) bullshit — empty motivational words with no inner meaning, supposed Internet exploits that either used to work but don’t now or that simply never worked. Some of your money went to buying this too.
And if these guys are always scamming people why do people keep buying their products over and over.
Firstly, there are throngs of people (maybe just like you?) that are affiliates for Frank and his buddies. These individuals have a very obvious vested interest in promoting whichever dude has a frauduct coming out this month. It makes it a lot easier to tell half-truths or outright lies or to just unquestioningly believe whatever the guru says when you’re getting paid a percentage of the take-in. It also makes it nearly impossible to tell the difference between made-up sh*t and Truth.
Secondly: cult indoctrination. The methodology of Kern and his buddies is not exactly like a cult. But there are definitely cult-like aspects to most of IM-MMO groups and training. You would think they would learn….
that’s because they sell good products….PERIOD!
No. It’s because they are very good at making people believe that sell good products.
–
Furry cows moo and decompress.
  0
[Reply]

pigs trotters Reply:
November 9th, 2012 at 6:19 am
@Wyrd,
Something that I kept seeing repeated in the early IM salesletters was ‘sell the sizzle not the steak’—-
and thats all that IM has ever sold as the ‘steak’ is the toughest old bootleather that needs to be hacked with a pick axe for it to make any sense at all.
  +4
[Reply]

Sundog Reply:
November 9th, 2012 at 11:34 am
@Robert,
Now I have been in Internet Marketing for 6 ears
at’s a ong ime
  +3
[Reply]
# 9 November 2012 at 12:17 am
» Rippln Ripple Rippln Rip said:
[...] wouldn’t not be fair :: position yourself for the pre-pre-launch … the writtens of a ripple gnome [...]
  0
# 8 May 2013 at 1:48 am

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