Syndicates on The Verge

The Verge ... for Dummies

So I’m totally famous now … I can haz u monies?

Last year Engadget left AOL to become The Verge :: because AOL is like one of the stupidest things that’s ever happened … and if you breathe in their fumes for too long you’ll turn into a raging idiot addicted to teeth whiteners. Says David Carr in his NYTimes article about the move …

“In Internet years, AOL has grown long in the tooth and seems incapable of playing nice with the toys it buys. There is a great deal of execution risk in putting old and new brands together. Even now, many of the longtime editorial employees at AOL have been laid off to make way for Huffington Post staff, while many of the unpaid contributors to Huffington Post have been vocal about the fact that the site cashed in, but they still work free.

It hasn’t helped matters that AOL has changed strategies as often as Lady Gaga switches out sunglasses, including the much-hated “AOL Way,” a leaked document that suggested that the company was far more interested in mass-produced link-bait than building and supporting unique publishing brands.”

What’s wrong with mass-produced link-bait? If it’s good enough for Jason Calacanis :: then it’s good enough for you … assuming that you’re fucking useless like Jason Calacanis.

Anywayz :: back in December some of The Verge editors saw Anthony Morrison’s not so informational infomercial … and they were none too impressed. They contacted Jason about it because he’s the chairman of The National Freaks & Assholes Society … Mississippi SubChapter.

Five months {and a super impressive amount of actual expensive journalism} later :: comes this holy shit epic story …

Scamworld: ‘Get rich quick’ schemes mutate into an online monster

It’s like an objective outsider’s look at my objective outsider’s look at your insider “industry” :: spoiler alert … you come off exactly like the shit sandwiches that you are.

It’s hard to find the bottom of this big dark problem … no less to make any legit progress toward a meaningful solution. Some days it feels like we’re not making any progress … and like there’s no fucking hope.

Yeah … but no.

It’s called traction :: and we’re getting some … stick in both feet and push!

>> bleep bloop

242 thoughts on “Syndicates on The Verge”

  1. long read but damn good… and oddly i came to it outside of your site and was coming back here to say something about it.

    it was linked to on techmeme.com – where i get all my juicy tech news.

    and yeah, fuck JCal. what a douche.

  2. (RE theverge article itself.) It’s so totally awesome! (You got sort of scooped a little by @Jack.)

    And yet they still only touched the tip of the iceberg. No 3rd Tribe or copyblogger anywhere in evidence.

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Wyrd,
      Yeah, and Chris Guillebeau, Brendon Burchard and the rest of the pseudo-ethical “changing the world with lifestyle-design manifesto” types. I’d be tempted to club Ramit Sethi with this group, but at least he explicitly screens out people with credit card debt from buying his programs. He does, however, associate with that uber-douche Tim Ferriss and Chris Guillebeau.

    2. @Wyrd ::

      Not to mention the non mentioning of triple-homicider James Arthur Ray. How scary is it that such a big article only skims the surface? Very scary.

      @Dr. Zen ::

      There’s a clip of Walker in the video that’s from a Burchard event :: so I think Brendon can be proud of taking part like David “don’t be a wussy” Woods said over at The Verge …

      LMAO. Great video! I’m proud to be in it with all the rest of these badasses!

      http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/10/2984893/scamworld-get-rich-quick-schemes-mutate-into-an-online-monster#102181591

      I know … totally … old ladies getting done by boiler rooms … LMAO.

      1. @SD,

        I was so pleased to see this story. Beyond the validation that you already provide, you just got mainstream dog! I feel as though this this effort has struck the core of the issue, but the list of evil is massive. Hope they do a follow up to expose more.

        @Dr. Zen,

        Aye. What about app sumo? Am I the only one that sees through their bs? Observe how the offers are constructed. It’s like groupon for scammers…

      2. @SD, And…maybe I missed it somewhere here but no one else seems to have mentioned…NO mention of Stephen Pierce? He seems to have turned out to be one of the worst. A potential James Ray in the making, only, instead of sweat lodge deaths, he’s more likely to bring a gun on stage and start wiping out the audience in rage. A ticking time-bomb like that should be diffused quickly.

        It would have been really cool if The Verge piece had covered him and the fresh new class action forming against him…to lure more peeps out of the shadows who could join the suit?

        1. @Head Honcho, This was a wakeup call about the scam known as “internet marketing,” as opposed to just one scammer known as “Stephen Pierce.”

          In this case, focusing on the big picture will prove way more powerful and beneficial to this blog’s mission that microfocusing on one scammer.

          In fact, one side benefit from all the attention that this is generating is that each scammer mentioned on this blog will get even more negative exposure.

          1. @Big Picture, Understood. Just wish he’d been *included* and I kind of thought it weird he was overlooked. I know it’ll all wash well. The coverage alone and the buzz it’s creating is … priceless.

  3. Awesome movie! Great job SD and the Verge editors involved. That should get a message across.

    P.S. I like your apartment.

  4. I’ve got Fahrenheit 451, Invisible Man, Moby Dick, and Walden tees.

    Didn’t think I could pull off The Catcher in the Rye… but you can. :-)

    P.S. Great video and article. Got the word out earlier today.

    1. @Ryan Healy, I enjoyed the not-so-subtle t-shirt subtext as well…Holden Caufield has nothing on JJ. My own personal fave of the ilk is a very rare Richard Brautigan tshirt I simply won’t surrender…and a couple Onion tshirts I got back in the 80s for writing headlines. I bet I am the only one on the planet with an “Eliminate Penis fear” and “I like to fist” tshirt based on the 1988(ish) Onion graphics. They don’t get as much air time as they should – they are too effective in causing a fuss. :)

  5. wow – Awesome video and article. Personally i’ve really really liked the verge. its almost like it came out of nowwhere – they are getting massive traffic very quickly and it seems due to quality content. The juxtaposition of the voiceovers and the frequent regular IM folks who appear is quite entertaining to your regular readers.

    And it was cool to finally really see you chat.

    Keep up the great work.

    :)

    1. @SD,

      In other angry tweets, Danny Sullivan seems pissed you gave an interview to SEOBook.com and The Verge but not SearchEngineLand.com.

      @verge you’ve defined all of internet marketing to be a scam. proud of that? do you have any editorial oversight?— Danny Sullivan (@dannysullivan) May 10, 2012

      1. @Lanna ::

        That one doesn’t annoy me as much because he’s not specifically in the position :: and holding the immediate responsibility … to do something about this disaster plague.

        But it’s not The Verge that decided to call them “Internet Marketers” … that’s what they call themselves … and there are hundreds of thousands / millions of people using that stupid label. The harm comes from the harm … not from the pointing it out.

      2. @Lanna, no, I was pissed that The Verge defined all of internet marketing as being only this particular type of tactic. That’s pretty self-evident from the tweet.

    2. Oh look they already talked about this …

      http://youtu.be/A1gV36UkXsk

      … when Joshua asks him “what’s the legit community going to do to help with these scammers” … that’s right when I become his #1 fan forever. #1FF

      And Sullivan :: quite obviously … shot off his tweet mouth based on @MattCutts lust … before fully reading Joe’s amazing story.

      You’ve never heard IMers call themselves IMers Danny? For fucking seriously?

      Here’s me explaining the difference back in 2010 in reference to Razorfish type “internet marketing” …

      “Iain is the founder Amnesia Razorfish :: a digital advertising agency based in Sydney :: and a part of Razorfish … which wasn’t then was and now isn’t {say it fast} a part of Microsoft. Iain’s agency helps companies take their brands online or whatever blah blah blah.

      He’s an Internet marketer. Funny right? Like an actual one!

      See … for those of you not in the know … around here the term “Internet Marketer” has exactly jackshit to do with the actual profession of marketing …

      Internet Marketing is fake for Network Marketing on the Internet
      Network Marketing is fake for Multi Level Marketing
      Multi Level Marketing is fake for pyramid scheming
      … and pyramid schemes are a soul sucking rot that plagues the land.

      http://saltydroid.info/my-father-is-li-gang/

      Of course you’ll forgive me for thinking I wasn’t explaining it for Danny Sullivan … maybe he and Matt Cutts should go learn all about it on SEO Book last year …

      http://www.seobook.com/salty-droid-interview

      … then they won’t be so fucking surprised about it this year.

      1. @SD,

        Don’t upset Matt Cutts!

        He and Google might label your completely original, highly informative, and well researched content as spam.

        http://www.seobook.com/penguin-update

        They can do that you know. It’s called search innovation in “Goo Goo Land” where Danny Sullivan and Matt Cutts frolic with the algorithms and such.

        Goo Goo Land is not as much fun as “Scamworld” because there are no hookers, and Frank Kern isn’t allowed ten miles from the joint, but it’s far more profitable. That means they get a better dental plan and stock options.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/google-online-prescription-drugs_n_1333180.html

        Nice Google.

        PS – While the Droid may be getting all the attention right now, most of us know that you do all the work round here Jason.

        Perfect time to ask for a raise.

      2. @SD,

        See … for those of you not in the know … around here the term “Internet Marketer” has exactly jackshit to do with the actual profession of marketing …

        * Internet Marketing is fake for Network Marketing on the Internet
        * Network Marketing is fake for Multi Level Marketing
        * Multi Level Marketing is fake for pyramid scheming

        … and pyramid schemes are a soul sucking rot that plagues the land.

        I love when you spell it all out like this. This is the sort of thing that should go on the T-shirt one day.

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

      3. @SD, why didn’t I learn about internet marketing programs calling themselves “Internet Marketing” from the SEO Book article? Well…

        Do you think the headline really gave me any clue about why I’d even read it: “Salty Droid Interview.”

        Sorry, I’d never even heard about Salty Droid until that article. So why would that headline have grabbed me to even check it out.

        But how about the article itself. How often do you, in that interview — or the person interviewing you — talk about Internet Marketing as being the name for these types of programs.

        Zero.

        Go back, search for that phrase yourself. The only place you’ll find that phrase even appearing on the entire page is for a sidebar link to Aaron’s own internet marketing tools, which I’m pretty sure have nothing to do with the internet marketing your so upset with or taking me to task over.

        Go do this search at Google or Bing:

        site:seobook.com “internet marketing”

        Go through the pages that come up and see if you can find the few that might even address the type of scams that you and now The Verge are talking about.

        All I can tell you is exactly what I said on The Verge, that the type of programs they talk about are pretty disgusting, and I’m glad they — and I gather you — have been exposing them. Great. Seriously, great.

        What I disagreed with is The Verge defining all of Internet Marketing as a scam.

        As for what the “legit” community is supposed to do, I guess that’s like asking what SEOs who dont’ spam are supposed to do about people who do spam. Wait, why don’t you ask Irwin for the solution to that, because heaven-forbid that if you suggest people not spam the search engines if they don’t want to get banned, that’s not acceptable by some.

        Frankly, the type of internet marketing I’m talking about has been as disconnected from the type of “internet marketing” that The Verge wrote about that it’s like me asking The Verge how, as bloggers, they plan to deal with all those crappy blogs that steal content from others?

        Trust me, mainstream news publications view bloggers in general as some type of parasites to the degree they even pushed for FTC hearings about possible content theft. By bloggers, they mean even people like The Verge, even though you can bet The Verge would object to being classified with some aggregator, much less some blog scraper.

        So shouldn’t they be doing more?

        Really, from what I’ve seen, the people who should be doing more are law enforcement agencies.

        1. @Danny Sullivan ::

          Your comment went to spam … my apologies.

          a) The reference to the SEOBook article was a joke :: or more appropriately … a dig. Aaron’s been reading this site for years … I guess you haven’t found the time.

          b)

          Frankly, the type of internet marketing I’m talking about has been as disconnected from the type of “internet marketing” that The Verge wrote about that it’s like me asking The Verge how, as bloggers, they plan to deal with all those crappy blogs that steal content from others?

          Not really … unless you spent six months researching an article in a quest to do something about crappy stolen blogs that were making nice old ladies commit suicide … and then The Verge used their public pull to take a huge shit on it three hours after it published because they are also “bloggers” and they felt their commercial endeavors had been unfairly tainted by association with said lady killers.

          And I think if you found the time to read some of their site you’d see that they don’t care to be called a blog. I didn’t really feel like they were “bloggers” when the flew people and lights and cameras to my city for three days. That felt very unbloggerish.

          If you don’t know the word “Internet Marketing” is associated with a multi-billion dollar per year online criminal conspiracy … then maybe you shouldn’t opine about it?

          Look at this Danny Sullivan …

          “Caught it. I’m with @DannySullivan and @MattCutts on this one. Big fan of good journalism. This was neither.”

          http://twitter.com/#!/colligan/status/201005814360702978

          They’ve all attached to it like a life raft :: it’s ruining the super fantastic anti-cult effect of the The Verge’s very brave generalizations. You’re doing harm during the most important moment so far … in what ultimately amounts to a perception battle.

          Which is why the next in my series of follow up posts is …

          Danny Sullivan in Scamworld …

          Either you take it away from them … or I will.

          You’ve demanded a retraction … and now so have I. Let’s see how this goes. It seems that I know you … and you don’t know me … so I like my fucking chances.

        2. @Danny Sullivan, I proudly give it a thumbs-minus because it forgets to remember about logic-101 and making false analogies.

        3. @Danny Sullivan,

          . . . that’s like asking what SEOs who don’t spam are supposed to do about people who do spam.

          Well, I don’t know who started it, but in SEO people who spam are labelled “black hats.”

          It’s not quite the same, since legitimate businesses and their affiliates can use “black hat” techniques, and those techniques are not illegal, just against search engines’ guidelines. But it’s a start.

          How about an article on SearchEngineLand.com or MarketingLand.com called “Black-Hat Internet Marketers”?

          1. @Lanna,

            Yeah, “Black-Hat Internet Marketers” a.k.a.: The Other 99.9999999999999999%.

            (Note to Mr. Danny Sullivan–this comment is intended to be interpreted as snarky,facetious, and true.)


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

        4. @Danny Sullivan,

          You wrote:

          “What I disagreed with is The Verge defining all of Internet Marketing as a scam.”

          The verge wrote:

          “There is another, legitimate form of “Internet Marketing” which operates much more closely to a traditional marketing business, but men like Raygoza have co-opted the term and run with it.”

        5. @Danny Sullivan:

          I operated a high volume, multi-million dollar business selling hard goods via internet advertising for many years.

          I chose those words for good reason.

          I was NOT an internet marketer. Not ever.

          My company also appeared in the telephone directory, and that never made me a “phone book marketer,” either.

          The semantic convention that you cling to like a badge of self-worth and valor (“internet marketer”), is not only a truly useless identifier in the real world, but the PERFECT say-nothing mask for scammers to hide behind in the criminal world.

          If your ego weren’t involved, and you turned it entirely over to your rational mind and personal moral compass, you would never assail the illuminating truth in favor of taking a stand over a tainted, mystical buzzphrase that had been co-opted long ago by legions of scammers and posers.

          I’d venture to guess that since the advent of that vague, “I’m a wizard! Behold my robe!” buzzphrase, “internet marketer,” more marketing money has been wasted by commercial business, and even more criminal scamming has occurred, than in the preceding 30 years leading up to it.

          Man up, Danny. Who’s driving your car? Your ego, or Danny Sullivan? Show some measured thoughtfulness and courage here. You also walk among the victims.

    3. @SD,

      Matt Cutts is part of the wider conspiracy.

      He appeared on a website for an invite-only internet marketing mastermind group which included all of the Syndicate members plus a whole load more people.

      The page was mysteriously ripped down the following day;
      This was a couple of years ago when i was Googling around.

      This is why he is so dismissive, he best buddies with these guys.

  6. Bravo! I read the article and watched the video. Both were incredible. Jason absolutely destroyed that interview, so well spoken and articulate and…well, just really great. While watching it I kept thinking “Oh man, the message is catching on…it’s going mainstream.” Sorry Salty, you do all the swearing and Jason gets all the glory.

    I did have to laugh though, when reading the comments, a majority were about the length of the article and one person actually gave the writer shit for “lumping” Toothy Robbins in with the scammers. I guess that particular reader missed that part in the article where the writer explicitly stated that Robbins did a product launch with Kern & Co. (sigh).

    But still, progress!

  7. Wow. In just the first 12 hours, the Verge video has gotten 10,000 direct views on YouTube, and it’s just one partial metric. That’s powerful. This is getting some major traction, and it’s going to snowball.

    This blog is destined to become a regular “grocery list” source for media and law enforcement – they are all going to start regularly cruising in here, and they’ll have lots to pick from.

    Now would be a really, really bad time to be mentioned anywhere on this blog.

    1. @Buster McRadar, don’t forget all the lawyers and attorneys looking to make a career move that come on here looking to play.

  8. I logged into my favorite chatroom this morning (we talk about a particular space-alien cult) and was greeted with “you can make money online with make money online scams”. Nice work, Mr. Droid.

  9. How did Ryan Deiss (Perry Belchers long time life/business partner) get skipped over here? He is one of the biggest con men and is in the middle of all of this.

    1. @Rick, On the whole, that video is excellent, and really shines the spotlight into a dark place.

      Sadly, hardcore criminal Perry Belcher has gotten away (and continues to get away) with some huge, and incredibly brazen scamming.

      FYI for anyone unfamiliar with the saga: Perry Belcher is shown, but not named, in that video (“Some asteroid asshole…”). Belcher is also still on 10 years FELONY probation for selling fake drugs to sick people, and he has VIOLATED his probation many times since then, and continues to scam.

      Belcher absolutely, positively should have been sent to prison several years ago, and there is plenty of justification to send him there NOW. He is a psychopath. For the record, Ryan Deiss of Austin Texas, is the front man for Belcher today.

      http://saltydroid.info/rated-g-reports/perry-belcher/

      All the Perry Belcher posts here (in reverse order, so start at the end of the list if this is new to you and work your way forward):

      http://saltydroid.info/category/perry-belcher/

    1. @Rafael Marquez ::

      Maybe that video will go viral and I’ll get a free lifetime supply of the world’s most delicious soda …

      http://drinkgus.com/

      … which I will :: of course :: disclose in short order so as to not fall afoul of FTC guidelines … knowing as I do how effective they are at enforcing these alleged guidelines.

      1. @Who?,

        Posted a very quick and dirty response, let’s wait how long it’ll take for the IM-acolytes to label me as a hater or troll.

        Btw, I’m Clark.

    1. @Alejandro, I was initially thinking that there are a lot of DELUDED people kissing Frank’s dubious ass in the comments of his Facebook propaganda. But I’ve changed my mind. Most of those people are no better than he is, and are of similar character (or lacking thereof).

      One of Frank’s sycophants actually suggested people flag the Verge video as “spam.” Too late for that, douchebag.

      1. @Kern Is Spinning It,

        Some of those commenting in Frank’s defense might be dicks, true.

        Some of them are just stuck in a vicious cycle of self-delusion.

        Spending $100s or $1000s on something stupid tends to push you to one extreme or another–either it causes to wake up very fast and realize you’ve been scammed, or else it causes you to separate yourself further from reality in order to maintain your belief in the thing that you’ve just sunk a ton of cash into.

        Also, cult of personality thing comes in here. There are a lot of people that think Frank is cool. So when they see Frank get dissed they honestly feel bad for him. And they assume that whoever is attacking him must be mean. ‘strue, this is how human psychology works.

        Frank can’t be friends with me though. There’s way too many Facts In Evidence to allow that to happen. Stuff like:
        * admitting to setting up a price fixing cartel and either not understanding or not caring that it’s both ethically wrong and (criminally?) illegal.
        * encouraging others to set up similar cartels
        * trying to sell people a step by step plan for which he freely admits (and even tries to use as a selling point) that at least two of the steps are “a little bit evil”
        * having an FTC judgement against him for a very large sum–which serves as indication that even the slow, lethargic, myopic FTC found grounds to go after Frank
        * generally “talking out of both sides of his mouth” like the proverbial snake in the grass.

        A person like that can smile and lie to you and make you believe it. You can’t ever trust someone like that. Not ever.


        Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Alejandro,

      Filthsame was given an “I don’t do boiler rooms”, and “boiler rooms are bad” soapbox, so the rest of the clowns “adapted”, and are now using the “boiler rooms are bad, and I don’t use them” defense. They are practically saints!

      It’s the same fucking shit that is happening in the Pierce camp. A few fucking employee morons (I say that with all due respect) put affiliates on pedestals, and now people are all like, “Pierce bad; Affiliates are victims!” Not only are affiliates propagating false and misleading information for the Pierces, the pagans, the lyttles, but also including misleading claims of their own to sell the fraud.

      These circus clowns are NOTHING without affiliates. Until affiliates are brought to task for their participation in these frauds, nothing will change. If there are no consequences, there is no reason for them to stop. Putting them on pedestals is fucking stupid!

      @Who?,

      The “butt-fuckers” as you refer to them are mostly affiliates, and other ASSorted frauds.

      1. Really man?

        This is how you’re going to do me now.

        Dishonestly … cloaked?

        Don’t bother coming back then.

        And for the record … you are fucking wrong.

        1) Some of the affiliates are part of the victim pool even though they are doing harm themselves. That’s been part of the story here since the beginning. Have I ever lobbied for affiliates to get their part of the blood money? Ever?

        No.

        That’s victim money … not their money. Who gives a shit what this or that confused person says in these nutty comments? I’ve never fought for affiliates … and I never will.

        2) They ALWAYS said they didn’t use boiler rooms … Filthsame’s “soapbox” put it on the record like a motherfucker. If you can’t see why I did that now … then you’re no where near as smart as I always thought you were.

        1. @SD, Well, Filsaime can claim he doesn’t do boiler rooms all he wants, but I fell for one of his newsletter pitches in 2009 and got a call from Russel Brunsons’ coaching floor soon after.

          Since he did ask for my phone number as part of the sales process I was expecting that to happen; I put my real number in just to see his sales process in action

          ‘Course being on disability and not actually having a credit card (just a direct debit one) meant no real danger of falling for the pitch in any case, but the poor sod who called me was so clearly out of his depth when he was reading from the sales script that a couple jokes from me was enough to throw him off. When he was off the script he sounded like a reasonable human being, possibly with a future in sales for real products. When he was on-script he sounded a lot like a third-rate Troma actor reading his lines with just a slight note of shame and horror from having to listen to the words coming out of his mouth.

          Not that this is news to anyone who reads the article, Filsaime selling leads to Prosper is right there.

    3. Browsing through the comments of the link I posted, I spotted this exchange between a guy named John Polk and Frank Kern:

      (John Polk)

      Any internet marketer who sells “how to make money” needs to stop ranting about how they are so different than the rest of the “how to make money” croud. The droid is an extreme view but is doing a valuable service to consumers. If no one challenges the top internet marketers, who is?

      (Frank Kern)

      Don’t get me wrong, John Polk. I AM an Internet Marketer. And I am proud to be one. However, I am not an Internet Marketer who does business with boiler rooms, harms consumers, fixes prices, uses false testimonials, does forced continuity, or sells biz-opp.

      .
      .
      .

      Frank Kern doesn’t harm consumers or sell biz-opp stuff?

      First:

      The FTC seemed to think Frank Kern has harmed consumers when they sued him:

      http://saltydroid.info/frank-kern-underachieving/

      Second:

      Frank Kern admits he is in the biz-opp business:

      http://saltydroid.info/main-street-marketing-machines-fusion-shitstorm/

      More specifically, in this audio:

      http://saltydroid.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/biz-op-with-an-internet-marketing-wrapper.mp3

      Here’s the essential part (roughly starting at 1:33 to 1:47):

      What we’re in is the business opportunity business, really. In the market space that we […] but you know, if I were mailing my list […] that’s biz-opp man, with an wrapper around it of Internet marketing but it’s really biz-opp.

      .
      .
      .

      My humble advice to Frank Kern?

      It’s probably time to “retire” from Internet marketing, for good.

      Want to know what’s sad?

      There is and interview Frank did many years ago where he talked about being able to stay home and have lunch with his wife and daughters.

      That really made an impression on me and I thought he was such an awesome guy for being a faithful husband and being successful enough in business to be able to provide for his family and spend time with them.

      In a lot of ways, I feel betrayed and suckered.

      Frank asks the following in his Facebook response:

      “If I’m so terrible and Jeff Walker is so bad – where are the legions of dissatisfied customers?”

      In other words, why isn’t Bob complaining?

      Bob is the customer avatar Frank created that represents his average Internet marketing customer. He talks about this topic in his “core influence” presentation.

      According to Frank, Bob is afraid of loss and embarrassment. Bob also wants respect and credibility.

      Is it therefore any surprise that Bob doesn’t complain or cause any waves?

      .
      .
      .

      The Salty Droid can be viewed, in some ways, as being the “avatar” version of all the angry Bob’s of the world. Bob’s who feels betrayed and fed up.

      It’s often said that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

      Perhaps.

      But this I know.

      Hell hath no fury like an infuriated Bob.

      Long live The Salty Droid.

    4. @Alejandro,
      You could go they every name and find that they all sell a course of some kind on how to in the internet marketing biz op space

      Nathan Amaral – guess what he does for a living…wait for it – personal coach – he will teach you his personal steps to success..YEAA NATHAN!

      Charlie Magleid – he sells a an online marketing system to businesses…what a fucking surprise

      Michale worthington – calls himself a full time internet marketer and people who inspire him are Sean Casey, Armond Morin, Michael Penland and Yanik Silver…he’s just a C team fanboy

      Tim Daugs – makes his money being an autoresponder marketing expert

      Ken dumas – makes his big monies in mobile marketing to the masses

      Ernesto Verdugo – sells a must have guide for all internet users on USEFUL websites and is affiliated with unlimited power online

  10. lol finally!

    It is scary that such a giant-ass article as that one on The Verge only scratches the surface.

    I hope this starts to get main-stream traction so Oprah and Tony havsta publicly apologize (or commit ritual seppuku or something).

    Good job SaltyDroid. And nice monitor.

    1. @Doctor Mario ::

      Oprah should apologize :: it’s never too late … and it would be the most important of things.

      Tony Robbins should fly into the sun. He can stuff his sorries in a sack.

      PS :: Please don’t call my iMac a “monitor” … it’s rude.

      1. @SD :: Oprah can share the sun-bound spaceship in my book.

        She’s done more harm than the whole Syndicate combined … by validating & popularizing innumerable scams, frauds, and actual murderers over her “career”. I’d rather not imagine how many of the crooks mentioned here got their start (or a major boost) from that fat-bundle-O!-shit.

        I can only have faith that her time (and Tony’s) will come sooner than later. And when it comes, believe you me, you will be getting a big pat on the back from this guy.

        I can’t wait for the day when the Salty Droid starts {targeting} big sharks like O! … after the IM/MMO world is left as nothing but a pile of smoking rubble & incarcerated felons in your wake.

        PS :: I knew that one would piss you off… I never figured the Droid for a Mac-tard! What, are you like a graphic designer / video editor / music producer on the side or something?

        1. You know, I hate that Tony did a joint product with the Syndicate. I hate what Duff said way back about the ridiculousness of separating his audience at a seminar into a group that was signing up for the next round of seminars and having them pressure the ones that weren’t. That’s just incredulously bad to the point that I can’t fathom how someone doesn’t speak up about it (Milton obedience?).

          I don’t think you can defend any of that. It’s pretty scummy.

          The dude DOES happen to be good at helping people though.
          I saw this video which is pretty ridiculous:
          http://www.viddler.com/simple/8e6767b5/

          Cliffs notes: He cures a guy of a stutter he’s had since he was 2 years old and does it in one session. The guy is up on stage at one of his seminars later speaking flawlessly when he couldn’t even say his name during the intro.

          I wish his marketing tactics would get squashed, but that the value he does have could stick around.

          1. @Sentient ::

            Tony Robbins can’t cure anyone of anything … because he has no training. The only thing he’s qualified to do is take other people’s money … that he’s mercilessly good at.

            He is the most harmful man in all of Scamworld.

            I haven’t really started on that story yet … because it’s all about timing.

            wink wink.

            1. @SD,

              Your premise is flawed: that to help someone you require training (or even that Tony Robbins has none).

              Yeah, the guy hurt me personally with his rubbish and yeat, I’m sure he’s hurt more than he’s helped.

              But some people he’s helped, NLP (if only because it is a model for communicating and communicating can sometimes change people in positive ways), unscientific claptrap though it may be, has helped people, etc.

              And Robbins knows a bit about it. I mean, it DOES work somewhat for persuasion. And he persuades, right?

              I’m just saying Tony Robbins has helped no one ever isn’t a true statement. Done lots more harm than good? I’ll buy that, sure.

            2. @SD,

              Robbins does have some skills, but his skills serve his primary agenda–more money, power, and fame for himself. That’s why the emotional peak of UPW is his multiple hours long sales pitch with techniques taken from Stanley Milgram’s Obedience experiment and elsewhere for his “Mastery University”…because that’s what UPW is all about–more money for Tony.

          2. @Sentient,

            That said, I wouldn’t say I’m totally convinced the video was legit.

            It could well be fraud a la Benny Hinn healings.

            BUT … at least Robbins’ reasoning in this is sort of plausible. Unlike Hinn’s.

          3. @Sentient,

            Cliffs notes: He cures a guy of a stutter he’s had since he was 2 years old and does it in one session. The guy is up on stage at one of his seminars later speaking flawlessly when he couldn’t even say his name during the intro.

            I wish his marketing tactics would get squashed, but that the value he does have could stick around.

            Are you really sure there is value?

            I mean… considering the fact that these guys are willing to lie lie lie and pretend to be experts at marketing when they’re not, isn’t it possible that the thing with the stuttering guy was, you know, staged? rigged for your benefit and that of all the other viewers?

            Charlatans have been doing stuff like that since forevers.

            Furry cows moo and decompress.

            1. @Wyrd,

              I agree that’s a good working assumption. If you can’t touch it, be skeptical.

              All of these 1 on 1 videos you see of Tony find their origin in the training he put together with Cloe Madanes. Cloe Madanes (who does have a very long career in psychotherapy and partnered with Tony) followed up with that guy afterwards. Apparently he had his ups and downs after the filming, one of the issues being that he felt stupid having carried around a stutter for 28 years when someone else waltzes in and helps him solve it in < 1 hour. Presumably Cloe, Tony or someone helped him get over that if they were following up with him in the first place.

              Is that really proof that any of this still exists? No. It makes the number of people who have to be in on it larger and includes someone (Cloe Madanes) who probably wouldn't want to be associated knowingly with a fraud. She built her reputation long before Tony came along.

              I see stuff like this and some of it is genuinely impressive. Of course, what Duff said is just disgusting. That was my original point though…it'd be nice if there was some enforcement against horrendous marketing tactics. That way people with value (Tony or anyone for that matter) would be forced to comply and the temptation to self aggrandize would be tempered with legal consequences. Yes, that's a pipe dream I know. In the end, I'm not sure my point is really even that important at all.

              Hopefully it's clear that I'm certainly not here to defend his marketing which makes me sad and sick.

  11. Great news that the droid is getting greater traction. Still much to be done. Too many yes men at the lower levels of the IM hierarchy manage to consistently con. Have a look at this discussion chain as an example – http://www.affilorama.com/forum/affiliate-hangout/does-affilorama-really-work-t14056.html NB – the dissenter in this discussion had his comment status changed to ‘moderated’ and is not allowed to make any further comments. Joining these wretched ‘communities’ and ensuring subtle dissent helps the truth disseminate.

  12. Good job! About time you got the recognition you deserve, Salty. I’ve now spent hours reading your blog and you seem really dedicated to your cause, plus you’re hilarious. Keep up the good work!

  13. @SD — Congratulations on finally getting some of the mainstream attention your efforts deserve. It’s about fucking time…but I’m sure you agree.

    I’m also sure you’ll agree this is funny…an email I just got from Kern, apparently right after his posting of his “defense” to the whole Verge blast. Note in particular his disclaimer at the end…WOW!

    =============================

    SUBJECT: NEW: case study brings in $1MM part time.

    This is so crazy. I tried this experiment 9 months ago
    and it brought me over $1,000,000.00 in sales.

    I’m teaching a LIVE webinar on it (no charge)
    and you’re invited. It’ll be on Wednesday, May 16th.

    Details here

    It’s weird because I used this technique that was
    pioneered by the GOVERNMENT (of all people)
    back in 1870.

    I think this may be the “missing link” in marketing
    and I’d love to walk you through it.

    Join me on this webinar as my guest :-)

    Talk soon,

    Frank

    P.S. This is really the damndest thing ever. I didn’t
    even realize how well it did until my bookkeeper
    brought it up.

    Hooray for bookkeepers lol.

    Anyway – join me on this. You’ll dig it.

    P.P.S. This is a LIVE webinar and I’ll be doing Q&A at
    the end.

    I’m using GoTo Webinar for this one, and it can hold
    1,000 people.

    So register now and secure your spot.

    P.P.P.S. This is supposed to be the fine print part.
    You know – the part where I tell you my results aren’t
    typical and that your results may vary.

    I think fine print is for pussies. So here’s BIG PRINT.

    FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY,
    WE BOTH KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL
    THAT JUST BECAUSE I TESTED SOME COOL
    PROMOTIONAL TACTICS AND MADE A BUNCH
    OF MONEY DOESN’T MEAN (OR IMPLY) THAT
    THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO YOU OR ANYBODY
    ELSE.

    I’VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 13 YEARS THIS OCTOBER
    AND IT TOOK A LOT OF VERY, VERY HARD WORK
    TO GET TO WHERE I AM TODAY.

    THERE IS NO PRODUCT, WEBINAR, SEMINAR, GURU,
    COACHING PROGRAM, POTION, OR ANYTHING
    ELSE THAT WILL MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL.

    YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A PSYCHOTIC ANIMAL
    …RELENTLESSLY REACHING FOR YOUR GOALS.

    THE ONLY GUARANTEE YOU CAN COUNT ON
    IS THIS: YOU WILL EXPERIENCE HARSHIP.
    YOU WILL EXPERIENCE FAILURE. YOU WILL
    EXPERIENCE DISAPPOINTMENT.

    IT IS IN THE MOMENTS THAT YOU GET UP,
    BRUSH YOURSELF OFF, AND CLIMB BACK INTO
    THE RING TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THAT YOU WILL
    FIND SUCCESS.

    IF THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR YOU, GET OFF MY
    LIST.

  14. On one side of the coin, I look at the guys like Kern, Pagan, Kennedy, WSO jerk-off of the month, and I see people who focus all of their energies on their charisma, marketing methods, creating something that ‘sounds’ trendy.

    In some respects, these people aren’t quite far off from many so-called respectable positions today; a money-chasing banker for example. Ah, well, at least the man with a degree in finance or economics or an MBA is a good man when he introduces quantitative easing (this shit smells just like Russell Brunson pitching Microcontinuity, more dialectic obfuscation for the sake of selling the little people and gaining trust).

    On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of stupid things people buy today, that may be more ‘material’ than an e-book, or some cheap crap DVD’s someone stupidly paid way too much for; but in the end, they get equally bored.

    I understand this board/blog is specialized to attack a specific problem, these scum who make the internet ugly with their spam, their fake blogs, their smoke and mirrors that you come to find out is 90% marketing and 10% actual ‘work’, and that’s all well and good, but I think the thing to remember is that most of the masses are buying things – or ‘buying into’ things, trends, foolishness – and paying the prices that aren’t exactly worth their value in ‘work’.

    I’m sure you can look around your house and find many things that weren’t worth the effort and that you now regret. There is little skepticism needed when you see many ‘internet marketing’ forums that were previously a bunch of people trying to be the next Frank Kern, are now all talking about easy way to make appealing ‘apps’ for the Apple AppStore and other mobile devices to get a chunk of that pie; and they’ll be crappy apps for sure, but they’ll use the same old marketing appeal. Perhaps StomperFart will have a collection of Andy Jenkins best ass rips for 99 cents.

    In a nutshell, you are completely correct in your part of the equation that the internet has turbocharged these snake oil salesman, these dialecticians; on the other hand, it must be acknowledged that it is a world of materialistic priority, of sober realism – jumping from one thing to the next, consuming one thing and the next, getting bored and needing the next (we see the hollywood starlet who ends up on drugs because she goes through every other possible ‘high’ in the material world) – that is a big problem. It’s very hard to get a lot of people to give up the “it’s a free country, they can sell what they want and charge what they want” lingo, because of these realities.

    And don’t mistake me, I’m not preaching religion here or anything like that; but in a sense, everyone is a bit religious about something. These people, about dollars.

    1. @I used to post on this site a lot…,

      Gosh. I never knew there was so much to be said about two sides of a coin. I went and looked at some of my coins just now. But I can’t think of much to say about them. Which coin were you talking about? If it was a U.S. dime coin, next time maybe you can talk about both sides of a U.S. quarter. I’ll be waiting right here eating my sunflower seeds.

    2. @I used to post on this site a lot…,

      And just who “were” you when you “used to post a lot”? LOL

    3. Why has this post been modded down to hidden?

      Sure, the parent-poster is rambling. He/she seems to be generally implying that “all people buy lots of stupid crap they don’t really need.” It didn’t seem like he/she was saying that scammers don’t deserve to get they come uppance–just that in the grand scheme of things, we’re all guilty of repeatedly buying “noisy shiny crap” and in that way we all help support the wider machinations of stupid, pointless things that don’t add value.

      I mean, ok, so maybe he/she’s off topic and so the post probably shouldn’t get some high +8/+10 vote, but why -5?

      I think folks jumped the gun when they saw the handle. (I might have missed something, but,) I didn’t see anything in the body of the post to indicate that this person has an axe to grind regarding either @SD or the mission of this site.

      It just seems that he/she’s of the rambling philosopher bent and that he/she probably isn’t particularly passionate about the vile scourge of IM-MMO. So? I don’t see that as a good reason for a mod-down, but rather just as a good reason to not mod up.

      Please tell me if I’m wrong.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd: Yes, that is what they are “generally implying.” However, blaming the victim for their participation doesn’t typically go over well. That’s like saying, “Sure, they lied to you and deceived you, but if you hadn’t gotten so carried away by it…”

        The point this person misses is that it is not a level playing field. The customer is missing a key element: THE TRUTH. It also DOES NOT MATTER what the motivations of the defrauded are. There is no inherent right, justification, or acceptable excuse to defraud people under any circumstance, regardless of what inspires those people to believe the lies.

  15. Danny Sullivan’s article-response:

    http://marketingland.com/internet-marketing-isnt-scam-11713

    Commenter Jake Luddington says:

    “While I have never purchased anything from Frank Kern, who was the primary target of the article, I have products from Yanik Silver, Eben Pagan, and Jeff Walker. All three of them are part of the “Syndicate” and appear in the Scamworld video. I didn’t get rich from any of them, nor did I expect to. I did great education on specific aspects of marketing and content development. In short, it was money well spent from my point of view.”

    …which inlcudes th “I didn’t get rich…but got great education”…which can mostly usually translate into, “Shit. My refund period is over, better figure out how I can justify this one to my brain.”

      1. @Jake Ludington :: I hope that you torrented (or copied from friends) and didn’t pay for those Yanik Silver, Jeff Walker, and Eben Pagan frauducts. As you are a computer guy, I like to imagine this is the likelihood.

        If you did spend moneyz, you better spend some time reading this site.

        The only education you can legitimately get from those “Internet Marketing” ass-hats is in copying what they DO, not what they TEACH …

        (i.e. — make illegally exaggerated claims & build a syndicate to generate leads … then follow-up with boiler room sales ops to bleed those suckers dry!)

        Do you work better with Visa or Mastercard? [or blood contracts promising your first-born?]

        Because the stuff they teach … their “Internet Marketing” “techniques” … don’t work. Otherwise, riddle me this :: If that shit works so good to make big-moneyz ::

        Why wouldn’t they practice what they preach?

        That’s certainly not how they market & sell their own crapola.

        If you want to run a real, legitimate business :: why waste your time using scam-tactics (what they DO) or proven fail-tactics (what they “TEACH”)?

        You can’t! You either become a scammer by following their example, or you become a failure by following their “advice.”

        If you are actually paying for their dubious “content” … definitely stop. Seriously, your money could be way better spent.

        Like, on actual advertising. Or on carrot cake recipes.

        Anything is better than feeding the human-meat-grinder machine and padding the pockets of those psycho-frauds.

        1. @Doctor Mario,

          Oh, common Doctor!!! Stop asking difficult questions! Why do you have to do that?

      2. @Jake Ludington, It’s probably because I forgot the 36-Red-Georgia-Font “Quick-And-Easy Copy-And-Paste Method For Making The Names Perfect Every Single Time!”

        Is it true about mr. Walker have a Trademark on the term “Internet Marketing” like he tells us about at how to get rich where he says to us about his site being:

        “powered by Internet Marketing™”

      3. @Jake Ludington, “Talk smack” must be your code for “common sense.” While you seem to be capable of identifying common sense elsewhere (like here), you’ve failed to harness it yourself.

        Here’s some common sense (smack) for you:

        “Only a fool goes on public record to support and promote scammers.”

        1. @Jack, I guess we know on which side Ludington’s tongue is buttered. And maybe where it’s been.

          1. @Jake Ludington,

            Frank Kern was deemed pretty enough for the top graphic, but he isn’t even mentioned in the text until the second section. I think @Jack’s trying to say that if you actually read the article instead of looking at the pictures, you’ll find Kern isn’t the primary target. The article targets an ensemble of IMers. No individual is the primary target.

            Frankly, Kern is making a mountain out of a molehill. The three things Flatley reports about Kern are:

            The FTC issued a judgement against his work-at-home pyramid scheme “Instant Internet Empires,” which Kern usually claims as a badge of honor.
            – It’s rumored Kern used iWorks, which he doth protest too much.
            – Quotes that are pulled straight from videos of Kern, which he says are taken out of context.

            He’s pulled a Naomi Dunford with his lengthy Facebook response: he pointed his faithful list to an article about the scams in which he’s involved.

            1. @Lanna,

              “Kern is making a mountain out of a molehill.”

              I’d like to see the FTC make a molehill out of Frank’s b.s. mountain, something they failed to do the first time around.

          2. @Jake Ludington, “Targeting?” That’s a defensive term. Are you going on record here defending Kern’s “business” activities? It absolutely sounds like you are.

            Of all the people who have been busted by the FTC, you chose Frank Kern to put on a pedestal. What was it about Frank’s scammy ways that made you look up to him? Was it his ability to suck some unsuspecting human being’s mastercard clean in a single convoluted pitch, or just that devious, evil grin? Does he have you on retainer, or simply wrapped around his lubricated, middle finger?

            If this should ever lead to soul searching, I’d suggest NOT referring to any framed parchment hanging over your desk that reads, “What Would Frank Do?” That’s because, if you used that for guidance, you might feel pressed to shaft someone’s ailing grandmother.

  16. Droid, it may be my UK bias but I really thought Jason would be…you know…well…fatter. And with an apartment less likely to make me envious ;-)

    Way to go, both of you.

  17. It’s interesting how some of the featured scammers have been begging the fools on their mailing lists to shill for them in the youtube comments. It’s all futile though, given that this has gone mainstream.

    However, their desperate reaction says it all, and proves what bad apples they truly are.

    Case closed, scambags. Hope you all end up behind bars.

    1. @Truth 101 :: If possible, can you post some of those begging mailings here?

      My junk{hot}mail acct that I use to subscribe to that crap is so overrun I cannot sift thru the garbage … but that shit sounds funny.

      Desperate scammers begging their victims FTW!

      Thanks if you (or anyone else) can share with us the Scambags’ own words as their fall from grace goes mainstream.

    1. “Mike Filsaime: Ron thanks. I am glad so many see this as not an attack on those in the article, but an attack on our entire industry.”

      Of course Mike wants people to mistakenly think it’s not about SCAMMERS. That way, he isn’t held up to scrutiny. Filsaime wants it to be someone ELSE’S problem.

      What a despicable douchebag Mike Filsaime is.

      1. @Filsaime Is A Game :: LOL! He said his “industry” …

        Of fraud?

        Instead of pissing & moaning, if I were him and I wanted to prove I wasn’t a scammer, I’d just point to the loads of success stories my advice had generated.

        Like :: URLs :: a big list of them :: of people using my methods to make big online moneyz :: and you can too!

        Filthshame should haz loads of high authority, highly profitable web sites of “customers” to which he can point … right?
        (since it is Internet Marketing after all … right?)

        But I’m not him, and he can’t do that. Because he’s a scammer. There are no success stories (other than his Syndicate butt-buddies & their B- and C-Team Affiliate clone-slaves)!

        PWND!

        Or, how bout it Filthshame? Instead of whining like a little bitch … why don’t you just send an email to Joe Flatley with a list of all your “successful” “customers” & their URL’s :: and prove to him how they are living their big moneyz interwebz lifestyles (thanks to you).

        But no. Because you are an asshat. And a fraud. An IM/MMO snake-oil-unicorn-moneyz-salesman. And you’d prefer to bitch about Prosper not appearing on record and journalistic integrity of >90% and nonsense like that … Good job.

        I hope you get repeatedly booty-raped in a prison cell for all eternity. Or at least for 5-10 years.

    2. @NeverBurnedAgain ::

      I can’t see the Facebook post somebody copy and paste it for me.

      That’s a funny email though.

      1. @SD :: Here is the post & the thread of comments below it. The comments are just as funny, since everyone who is saying “Yay brother” to Filthshame are fellow IM/MMO scammers … His fellow “industry” …

        “TheVERGE.com article.” Here is my response to the controversial article written yesterday. While well written, it is a sorry piece of journalism and is why sites like the verge can never be the “60 Minutes” of the Internet. It is just a blog trying to be bigger and this shows. The Verge reached out to me. This was my reply to the author. I sent him this email. Share your thoughts. Do you agree with my email to him on poor research and not being objective?

        Then the email screenshot. Then …

        (edited for space & content … and the lame “Hur dur you go girl” replies have been deleted unless their author was a blatantly scam-tacular IM/MMO’er — then their FB links were {painstakingly} replaced with links to their homepages to provide a cross-section of the type of duped n00bs who support Mr. Filthshame’s whining & bitching email posting) …

        Mike Filsaime :: PS – The reason I did not COPY / PASTE the email is I did not want it to be easy for this to be quoted or used out of context on other sites and blogs. – We are all on the verge on something great!

        Nicholas Breen [click link for his “Home Business Marketing Expert” page … from where he is “making a very nice living?”] :: people who write articles like this make me mad, I am making a very nice living because of these so called snake oil sales men. My business is ethical and also helps others improve the quality of their lives.

        [Not Doctor] Harlan Kilstein :: Mike, why talk to people who were manipulated? There’s no one home

        Alex Karis [Owner of mythical coaching business w/o website called “Peak Performance Unlimited”] :: A little fun, perhaps? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3752828936376

        Rob TheGenie [“Master Networker”] Toth :: To the crowd that craves the drama and places blame … [blablabla] … They are sheep who crave drama.

        To the ones who THINK intelligently, they already know that there is a lot of hype and snake oil nonsense in IM world.

        … [blablabla] …

        As for people losing money because of products they purchased… I think that is a whole different animal and needs to come back to personal responsibility. Too many non-action taking, wishful dreamers are buying Hope almost at the pace of an addiction. They jump onto courses they have NO BUSINESS purchasing because someone in some silly video showed off their trip to a few exotic locations or their yellow sports car? Come on. The blame there lies first and foremost with the CONSUMER. I do not agree with tricking or conning or stealing from anyone … but the IM wasteland is riddled with finger-pointers who forgot to grow up and instead they look for anyone and everyone to push the blame onto. Guess that ties into my reasoning for exiting from all of it (www.IQuitIM.com ) [lololol!]

        … [blablabla] …

        Oh and further congrats [to] The Verge. I’ve never heard of them. Neither did the MILLIONS of others who, in the past 24 hours and in the coming weeks will hear of them. [hear hear!]

        Sherrie Rose [the “Love Linguist®” & Founder of Love Success Network] :: Controversy. Gets. Attention.

        Ross Goldberg :: Bravo brother – couldn’t have said it better myself.

        Michael Worthington [Owner of mythical “marketing” business w/o website called “MPJ Marketing”] :: Excellent reply, Mike. I admit there are some scammers in the business, and they do us all a great deal of harm. I just wish I had the vocabulary and the clarity of thought to make an intelligent reply to his post myself.

        Shawn Mahdavi :: Great response Mike


        J.Lamar Ferren
        :: you gave him a C- ?? lol I’m assuming you used a curve

        Mike Filsaime :: By the way. The “REAL” reason my post was in a screen shot was b/c I want you to buy the text version on KINDLE via my amazon link. This was all a social experiment to get you to buy my book. http://tinyurl.com/mfkindle

        He needed to not be objective. How could he sell the Kindle Book otherwise with that title. When you START a project with that title, is there any way you can really seek the truth or only find what you want that supports your book title and project. Michael Moore at least “tries” to fake the other point of view.


        J.Lamar Ferren
        :: lol exactly… I guess I’ll give him a point for being good at Targeted Marketing… Targeting people who only want to hear what makes them feel better… By the way… Mike, your BFM product is responsible for my first product launch in the real estate niche ever. Not sure if I ever thanked you but I will be forever grateful. It was well worth the investment. Just wanted to let you know that! ;-)

        Arnold Hugo Stolting :: Pharmaceuticals, Bottled Water, and 10 Dollar Cups Of Coffee … now THAT’s a Scam! Mike, great email in response to a ridiculous article attacking the IM industry. P.S. if you are going to sell a kindle version of your email, at least convince Amazon to allow you to sell it for “only $1997” with a Monthly Continuity Plan of $97 to receive a new paragraph each month. This way you can pave the way for kindle authors to make some real cash, and change the game once again! ;)

        I especially like that last comment. While the author, Mr. Stolting, is being ironic when he speaks of the “only $1997” ebook w/ the $97 continuity plan … I think he shows the mentality of this whole lot.

        Fucking ass-clown scammers, living in a deluded cult fantasy that thinks anyone other than their fellow duped n00b scammers will pay $1997 + $97/mo for ebooks.

        1. @Doctor Mario :: If it wasn’t such a pain, I would do this same thing to the comments board on Frank Irwin Kern’s response message on FB as well. I just noticed how all those respondents who are like “You go girl” to Franky-boy are all equally guilty of being duped IM/MMO n00bs regurgitating the same played out unicorn messages on their own “business” websites. Maybe another time, that one already has >140 comments atm…

          It is interesting to see how the cult members rally around their leaders when under attack. Scary stuff.

          1. @Doctor Mario,

            Some of Frank Irwin Kern’s fans are pretty fucking disturbing.

            Shane Hunter ‎Frank Kern – Jones = Droid? Get at me bro if you want some more help squashing this bullshit. You’ve got my number.

            Sergio Felix Hey Frank, didn’t you just got together last weekend with a military dude? Just ask him to teach you some maniac combat moves, look up where this guy lives, go there and freaking POWER PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE!

            Even if he sues you, I’m pretty sure it will be damn worth it! (FOR YOU OF COURSE LOL!) ;-)

            David Canham Hi Frank, want me to go ruff him up for you? See him walking away limping?

            (That David Canham link is full of Lorem Ipsums [and not even Vegan Bacon Ipsums], so here’s David Canham on Warrior Forum and on YouTube promoting JV PhD with Willie Crawford.)

            Rein in your cultists, Frank! Muzzle ’em before we hafta cage ’em!

            1. @Lanna, That certainly exemplifies the type of “people” Frank most resonates with. Those people, and Frank, need to be visited by the F.B.I. Perhaps they will be.

            2. @Lanna :: Thanks for doing that! I didn’t want to go thru that whole process again.

              It is really funny how the only people supporting those dirt-bags are their cult members who are also chasing the interwebz-unicorn-moneyz.

              I especially like how in each list of “supporters” a portion of their “businesses” are based on wildly unfinished (or entirely non-existent) websites.

              Retarded indeed (sorry @Jack).

    3. @NeverBurnedAgain, these guys don’t have anywhere near the same size following as they used to, just check out the number of “likes” his Facebook rebuttal has received – only 15 in 12 hours!

      I get more likes than that when I post a picture of a homemade pizza.

      1. @PercyPennyWhilstle, Don’t give those scumbags ideas. They might start posting pictures of homemade pizzas.

      1. @Jack :: I never knew those “products” … after seeing that crap, I never thought I’d think this thought, but :: Even spammers are more elegant than Filthshame! Spammers FTW! IM-Syndicate for the cages!

  18. Salty you look even more handsome than I thought you would. Plus, you make nerds look sexy with all the slamming of scamming and the hilariously wild snark. Maybe you’ll have 3 marriage proposals like Maria Andros said she did after her video. I can just see Sandy Jenkins, Ed Stale Dale, and Misses Ebbie Deangelo Pagan lining up for your hand in marriage.

    1. @Jack,

      People on the inside are never lying to themselves and everyone else about aiding and abetting a scam to avoid the cognitive dissonance of the truth that would make them cut themselves. They always know everything that’s going on, and they’re never taken in by a villain’s charisma. No one ever lies to protect the people who sign their paychecks. And you can totally trust marketing professionals with purple hair and weird, overexposed pictures of themselves. (I look just like my picture: pale and round.)

      I do like the part where Laura Betterly calls Harlan Kilstein’s claims “bullshit”:

      (Yes, you have to work, no you won’t make money in your underwear or sitting on the beach–come on we know that’s bullshit)

      http://youtu.be/KO7IF87DVBw
      You hear that, Harlan?

      1. @Lanna,

        I can tell that his “life of a copywriter” video is bullshit because a “copywriter” is a person that writes copy and, at no time during the video did he, in fact, sit down at either a computer or typewriter and actually fucking write anything. (Or if he did it was only like 5 frames in there somewhere and I missed it whilest skipping ahead through the bland, emptiness that he calls a video.)

        He looks stupid. Oh–also his video isn’t like inspiring or exciting. I mean, his video doesn’t make me want to give him all my monies. So, separate from moral values of right and wrong and all the rest, I’m gonna have to rate that video an F for utter Failure. It’s like a Mystery Science Theater episode. It’s like a really bad Mystery Science Theater episode. Thank the FSM it’s so short.

        (His is the kind of uber-lame con that would not work on me even at my moments of highest vulnerability or gullibility.)

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

  19. Fantastic article and video. Congratulations!

    As a scam-fighting hipster though, I want to say that I knew you before you were popular.

    1. @Jack, Boom. Gone in a flash it seems. Warrior Forum is getting to be pretty predictable. If it’s a REAL forum, it seems this would be a topic worthy of serious discussion. If that’s what it was all really about. If it was real. If….

    2. @Jack, Pro-scammer censorship at the Warrior Forum. Typical. One day maybe we will get the news that the Feds have arrested the owner and moderators over there.

  20. I would love to know if these dipshits knew this was coming, or if they woke up to a full inbox of frantic emails screaming that they had better go watch this video. I can just see Irwin watching this video while trashing his presidential office. It’s about time that hillbilly got his due.

    Anybody interested in a divorce pool? How long will it be before his new wife leaves and takes everything she can? I have to believe that his ex-wife would love to sit down with Jason and spill her guts. Not wanting to see her kids’ dad in jail probably prevents it though.

      1. @Jack, Don’t forget convicted felon Perry Belcher’s technical term, which was shown in the ScamWorld video: “Some Asteroid Asshole.”

    1. @Mitch ::

      They should have had some idea because Flatley has been snooping around talking to people for months and months. But they’re not too perceptive … and they couldn’t really have known how it was going to go. I didn’t really know how it was going to go either.

      They certainly didn’t know that it was going to be called “Scamworld” … pretty much the best/worst possible outcome depending on if you are me or them.

        1. @Lanna @SD,

          When I saw “Scamworld” I was actually hoping it might be a feature length documentary. There’s certainly more than enough material.

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Cosmic Connie ::

      If I was allowed to have a Facebook account I would go say …

      “What a timely political reference … reminds me of the Taft administration.”

    2. @Cosmic Connie, That’s funny. Where does Pat find the time to make such incredibly dumb comments? Isn’t he already busy enough making regular dumb comments? I figured Joe’s #1 ass-kisser only got worked up when he ran out of pork rinds. Or maybe has a nightmare about being dislodged from Joe’s colon, the only home he’s ever known.

  21. I find it interesting that Seth Godin came out with a blog post about making money online about a day or two before this story went live. Think he had a tip?

    This line from the post is especially interesting:

    Don’t pay anyone for simple and proven instructions on how to achieve this goal. In particular, don’t pay anyone to teach you how to write or sell manuals or ebooks about how to make money online.

    Ummm, isn’t he a contributor to Copyblogger? The site that promises you leads and traffic and clicks and is tied to the third tribe crap? All, which if memory serves correctly, have a pay funnel for information about how to make money online and how to write ebooks.

    1. @SD, I would also like to see it published in the esteemed literary journals, “The FTC Docket,” and “The Attorneys General Review.”

  22. Frank Kern – definition from Dictionary.com

    actually for the word “kern” but,how righteous is that!!!

    “An Irish peasant, especially a crude or boorish one.”

    1. @Dain, No results found for filsame:let me give my def!.”feel same” or “feel shame” just like me!…i.e. “i want you to fil the same or fil no shame”, got it?…so do it bitch!!!

    1. @Sheldon, know what’s funny is you actually care!, enough to post a comment about it??

      1. @dain, What is wrong with caring about something? I guess you need to train your mind to associate care as a negative emotion if you want to be successful at selling “Make $143,631 a month online” products.

        You know what else is funny? You care that I care! Caring all around weeeeee!

      1. @Eric G :: over 20,000 people have liked the page “Frank Kern” … atm only 329 have liked his “response” post.

        Remember as well, that he & other Syndicate butt-buddies have been often caught using fake accts to build “social proof” in these types of social media scenarios … so it might not be >20,000 people who have “liked” Frank Kern … but rather >20,000 people+bots.

        1. @Doctor Mario,
          Sorry about that. Misread the numbers on my phone :-)
          Agree about the people + bots. Fake fans come cheap on Fiverr.

  23. Good thing ya got a law degree….otherwise ..we would all be screwed!!!!

    “Jason Jones tried to make the case on his hate blog that the Syndicate is a mafia -like organization which controls prices, forces competition out of business, and tries to harm consumers.

    His “evidence” is a video that he edited by taking two of my copyright protected videos from List Control (module 4 – videos 1 and 2) and editing them in a way which makes them appear to say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the actual message is.

    If you have List Control, watch them and you’ll see what I mean.

    In fact, I specifically say “whatever you do, don’t try to control prices,
    divide up customers, or do anything shady.”

    Funny how that was left out. Also interesting is the fact that the “confession” left out the entire segment on the purpose of a Syndicate – which is to help the customer have a great experience. (And thus keep the customer as a happy return customer.)

    Seriously – if you’re a list control customer, log back in and watch those videos. There’s no way anyone with a brain could miss the true message.

    Jones simply decided to create a deceptive piece of slanderous content by deliberately editing videos into a “compilation” of statements that appear like I’m making a totally different point.

    Pretty low.

    And…????…you are????….come on stand up man…”I just decided not to be a LAWYER..what????…damn just started to believe in you!!!

    1. @Dain, I have no idea about the point you are trying to make but…

      Kern probably really does feel that the video was slanderous. However since
      his scamming ass wants to be nowhere near a court room, he has to bend over, lube up, and take it. Squeal MF’er, squeal…

    2. @Dain, quote Salty Droid as a “hate blog” again and our next conversation will be about libel.

  24. Congrats Salty,

    I got hosed by Eben Pagan and Frank Kern… and I bought their expensive (and useless) products.

    Here’s how it worked:

    They constantly nag and guilt trip you into believing that if you’re not making millions you must be lazy. That’s why they show you flashy cars and keep throwing insane numbers at you. Then, they offer useless products (magical pill) to save you. Because the product is useless — you don’t get the results they promised. Then, they guilt trip you into buying more . . . etc etc = scam.

    Frustrated, you want to move to the next guru (thinking you must be doing something wrong)

    I thought I should try Brendon Burchard’s expert academy instead (he looked so nice) . . . and?

    Luckily I found the Salty Droid website and stopped buying this crap – I snapped out of the trance.

    So thank you Droid!!!!

    P.S.: I ended up watching Brendon Burchard’s expert academy (a friend bought it) and it was the worst piece of crap. For hours on the guy talks about his success; shows you his contracts; shows you stupid squeeze pages and keep screaming like a moron:

    “are you creeeaaaatiiiiiive?”

    until you want to puke.

    Thank you Droid – thanks to you I saved my money and my sanity

  25. Congratulations on this piece! Both the Verge article and video are great summations of what you’ve been writing about for years now. The exposure that this is getting is wonderful and long overdue- New Yorker recommendation?

    *sniff* Our little Droid’s all grown up now. It’s so great to see the traction digging in.

    And I’m hoping it will get you your This American Life segment all the sooner. In show themed “The Enforcers, Part 2.”

  26. @SD I think your tag line, “you can’t make money online” should now change to, “Thou shalt not get away with it”.

    Keep on going teaching the scum the 11th Commandment

  27. hey jason/joseph,
    great research, i always wondered who actually falls for these scams / if they actually work? So how much $ are these “gurus” really making? In this one phonecall that panting perv scumbag says he thinks he can sell 2000
    units of his product at 2000$… so let me get my calculator out facebook movie style..thats.. ermm.. wait for it..hmm.. ermm.. yes. THATS ALOT!!
    like 4 mio$ … are you telling me these guys make this kind of money X the frequency they manage to pull this crap off in a year???
    so these guys make like 20-30 mio $ a year and no one actually stops
    them?? im from europe i dont get it..in the eu these guys would have been
    to prison allready.

    1. @thorsten battmanscher,

      Re: how much money:

      It’s hard to say. At least AFAIK it is. Because: ok so Andy Jenkins charges a ridiculous sum of money and sure some people buy, but how many?

      Scamming like this means you only get a big chunk of cash in the door when you fake-sell a new rehash of your old crap. {again} Even when you con people on continuities and the like, the gravy train does not keep running indefinitely if you don’t go priming that pump every so often.

      So it’s definitely an irregular income type situation. There may be times when Andy has a lot of fraudulently gotten monies coming in and other times when there’s little or none.

      Having an irregular, uncertain income day to day, month to month. Just another one of the not-perks of that whole be-your-own-boss mindset that they don’t tell you about while they’re trying to get you to give them all your money.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

  28. I was a little surprised when he said that the Salty Droid was just a persona. This blog depresses me SO much. I just assumed that the author himself was a depressed guy. Turns out he’s living a relatively worry-free existence.

    1. @Upset Boy,

      (@SD or Jason please correct me if I’m wrong, but) I think that, while @SD/Jason’s personal life might be, or at least appear to be, basically worry-free, the anger and vitriol espoused by the Droid is basically genuine. It’s the jokes that are added in/kinda fake. ‘Cause when you have to confront crap that’s so horrible as what J. A. Ray did, what can you do? And the sick machine rolls on and on and on.

      {Hi, Oprah! Have you helped give false social proof to any more scammers this week?}

      At a certain point, you’ve gotta make a bit of a joke out of it just so as not to get crushed by the weight of it all.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Upset Boy,

      I think part of it too is that the only way to engage these guys is with vitriol. Putting it through a robot is a theatrical touch that makes it not so personal. It’s not so easy for normal healthy humans to to talk to psychopaths in a language they can understand.

      1. @Yakaru,

        With ya, there.

        More than vitriol is OK, too. A hammer on the right skull is best.

      1. @SD,

        Know it can be tough.

        First time I put a scumbag down it didn’t feel that good.

        Now its fun. Not good with words like you, he he.

  29. If what was said in the article was so slanderous and false why wouldn’t Frank Kern just sue? I would think that any legitimate business who had such an article written about them would sue immediately…….ooooohhhhh, right. Well, not that we’ve explained that one, could someone please tell Frank that just because you use all caps it doesn’t make your statements truthful=it won’t hold up in court.

    1. @Amanda, Bingo. Frank Kern knows that not only would he lose, but even more of his laundry would become public record. From that, he might face an even worse court ordeal, defending himself against government charges.

  30. I just found out about that Salty Droid & Joseph Flatley are racists!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKYAXHhOG4

    From under his video:

    “The verge recently wrote an article called “Scamworld: ‘Get rich quick’ schemes mutate into an online monster” and within the article joseph flately and the salty droid talk about how “all” information marketers are ruining the lives of many people. They talk about how a few people got scammed by a few scam artists and then attempt to attach a whole industry to it. The whole industry of information marketers is not full of scam artists… This is what racists do, class a whole group of one people into a specific belief system about them. They don’t understand what is going on, and who the actual scam artists are so they point their fingers at everyone.
    Because they do not feel important or significant in their own lives they decide to tear down everyone else’s creation.

    And to the guru’s, non-gurus and guru “haters” out there… get a fuckin life and focus on helping people instead of joining a clique.
    And to the rest of you, Create positive change… This drama is meaningless, and if you are going to create it at least create it around an industry fucking over many more people like the banking industry, pharmaceutical industry, etc etc… the list goes on and on.

    Take it easy :)”

      1. @Jack, I think since the comment box mostly just contains that idiot’s video and own stupid words, people can’t bring themselves to give it a “thumbs up” like that. Feels like giving a “thumbs up” to a spot of leprosy. Might be better to have a few lines at the end refuting it.

    1. @Jack :: Is he in an outhouse? In Costa Rica? True sign of a well-to-do expert-marketer scammer. He must be super-rich!

      Racism?

      Try these blanket statements on for size ::

      I don’t like every child rapist out there.

      I don’t like every serial killer out there.

      I don’t like every unicorn-moneyz frauduct sellers out there.

      And I definitely don’t like this douche-bag claiming he is rich living a third world-lifestyle in an outhouse.

      If I was face-to-face, I won’t give him (or any of them) a chance to speak before I punch them in the face with my geeky interwebz wisdom.

      Fuck.

  31. SD, no Ed Dale folder?

    The Verge, no room for Ed Dale in scamworld?

    Strange, since he was Frank Kern’s partner in crime (literally) for a very long time and now continues to scam and con people out of money with his Immediate Edge frauduct that he manages with his new partner, the equally vile and duplicitous Dan Raine.

    1. My comment didn’t print … natch.

      I guess I’m blacklisted for having the audacity to point out that PZ Myers bigotry was based on the factual inaccuracies of a raving scammer freak job.

      They’re skeptics don’t you know.

      1. @SD,

        They are, as you said before, “t-shirt wearing skeptics”. And I’m sure they’re appropriately skeptical about some things. They probably don’t believe in UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster or the theory of Atlantis.

        But all peoples have blind spots, and so far it seems the so-called freethoughtblogs.com folks have a great big one where P.Z. Myers is concerned.
        ——-

        But I’m curious: in the incredibly unlikely event that P.Z. did a 180 and said “sorry” and issued a retraction, what would your response be over here?

        Would you take down or alter the articles where you savaged P.Z.?

        I realize it’s a very academic question. Still, I’m curious.

        Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Wyrd ::

          Had PZ heeded my warnings … those articles wouldn’t have happened. He didn’t … and now they are forever part of his life.

          He takes down his defamatory post about a private citizen’s private life … and I’ll go back to not giving a shit about him until the end of time. He doesn’t take down that post … and I will never forget … and will always be looking for fun new ways to bring it up.

          I have been emailing Christian lawyer groups about it … eventually one of them is going to listen to me.

          1. @SD, …see that line there? The one you just crossed? Yeah, that’s is a mistake akin to Frank Kern getting suicidal and suing you. As long as you’re dependent on a geeksphere free speech friendly server to keep this site on the net aligning yourself with the fundamentalist Christian Dominionist anti-free speech, anti-LGBT rights crowd who’re the only ones who’d get involved with harassing Myers in court,that’s a stumble you can come to regret. It’s one of those small wedge issues that the scammers you’re actually after can point to in order to claim that more people than them think that you are a hate blogger. Not that you are, but keeping this going in the way you’ve outlined would create the perception that you’re aligned with people antithetical to everything your web hosts stand for in the way of free speech.

            Eh well, I don’t want to concern troll you – you pick the fights you want in the way you want them, and given your track record over the years I’ve read you, you’re good at picking the right targets at the right time. Just wondering if this *is* the right time for this particular fight…

            1. @Melkor,

              Well…

              Last I heard the EFF was defending not-blogger Crystal Cox’s free speech rights. And Crystal Cox is an “investigative journalist”/”reputation management specialist”/extornist. It’s so f*cked up it’s funny. Except not really because she’s so crazy that she really shouldn’t get to have her case heard at a higher court. But she might because the judge’s ruling could apparently set some sort of bad precedent relating to blogging and free speech. So there’s a liberal organization basically helping out a major nutjob freak show.

              Anyway, about Myers: one thing that has become increasingly clear to me as this has gone on–one thing that I get to be (mostly) sure of because I’ve had time to look stuff up and think it over:
              P.Z. Myers is a dick. It would be kind of fitting for him to get sued by Christian lawyers. And, in a sick sort of way, I think Myers would like that anyway. He could make lots of blog posts about it and play the martyr again. It’s funny how much likes to do that since he’s all anti-religion.

              Btw, you shouldn’t paint all of religion with such a broad brush. There are liberal Christians out there. I say ‘hi’ to them on Sundays*. {for realz}

              * I don’t want to mis-characterize my church: many of the folks that go there would not call themselves Christian. But a few do. Almost all of them would call themselves liberals. But maybe not all.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            2. @Wyrd One of my bestest friends is a Conservative Fundamentalist Christian, and we’re both close friends with a New Age/spiritualist because we’re human first and labels second. And because depression/anxiety/dieting support groups crosses party lines, I suppose.

              As my fundamentalist friend (lovely lady that she is) would say – the Christian Dominionists from the mega-churches, the LaHaye/Left Behind crowd are a subset of Fundamentalists, they don’t speak for all of them. They’re just the most vocal about it and they’re being thoroughly unChristian in how they fail to live up to what’s actually in the Bible.

              That Myers is a dick at times is undisputed. It’s just for a reason, and it’s not not all he is, just like Salty’s a Droid for a reason and isn’t one all of the time.

              At this point, the Verge might pick up the Droid or at least Jason so he could keep on fighting the good fight with more visibility, which means my apprehension is misplaced. I trust Jason to be the best judge of what fights he wants and how to go about them, but I think I’d also be doing a disservice if I didn’t at least voice my misgivings.

              Which could be entirely because I’m missing information the Droid has, I’m not the third-person omniscient narrator outside of the fiction I’m writing for my desk drawer ;)

        2. @Wyrd,

          “But I’m curious: in the incredibly unlikely event that P.Z. did a 180 and said “sorry” and issued a retraction, what would your response be over here?”

          I ran across Myers in ’97 on Usenet. He places himself in a box like most everyone else. He took a post (with accusations about me), and placed it in another thread (to prove the guy who was writing the post was a kook). He did it to prove his point (about his box being better), in doing that, one individual post (with no contextual posts from the original thread), placed me in a negative light.

          Don’t think for one moment he won’t fuck over anyone (incidentally or deliberately) to make a point, in an attempt to prove his box is better.

          When you live in a box, you always have to defend your box (from other boxes). It always makes me laugh when people say they “think” outside the box. In most cases, they are defined and ruled by their boxes.

          PS – I ignored him completely (then and now). I knew by reading a few of his posts, it wasn’t worth reasoning with him. Until he was brought up here (during the Dunford scandal), I haven’t even “crossed paths” with him since ’97, and I had to look up archived google groups to even realize he was the same ass.

    2. @SD,

      I do, but probably for different reasons. Comment 187 and 188 on Myer’s f-up to your post sum them up pretty nicely. Tbh, I still fail to understand why you don’t see how the way you write is getting you exactly the kind of responses you’re getting.

      As for actual conversation: I think Lanna did a very good job at demonstrating how both camps can discuss the Navarro issues without hurling insults. It’s in the same post, comments 218-227.

      1. @Clark ::

        There aren’t two camps … there’s just him being wrong and defaming someone who was already a victim.

        And my comments about it that morning were as vanilla as Brain Clark. And who said I don’t understand the reaction? I totally understand it :: and expect it … but that don’t mean it’s not fucked.

        1. @SD,

          As I’ve said before, and as Pascal-wagerer Nigel points out in the link, it’s not a binary issue. Dave and Naomi have their manipulative dream-selling business and get slammed; Anthony writes murdery messages and gets slammmed. Two problems referenced by two sites.

          If your point is that Anthony is a nice guy and PZ just caught him at a low point, your post should’ve pointed that out and showed evidence. You call him names and say he’s wrong. That’s not convincing anybody who doesn’t already agree with you.

          If your goal was to slam Myers, congrats; if it was to communicate your stance and get him to change his mind, the thing was an utter failure of communication.

          1. @Clark, Predictable apologism from you. You are hardly neutral. You are very much driven by your none-concealed hatred of religion, and the reflexive condescension you are quick to hurl at those who practice it. It drips off many of your comments like unruly little strings of spittle.

            To end on the proverbial positive note, I was somewhat surprised that you’ve taken most of your tongue out of Kern’s ear. When you finally get it all the way out, and are able to acknowledge his schenanigans without the use of qualifying asterisks, maybe then we’ll give you a cookie. Hope springs eternal!

            1. @Doc Smartin,

              I’m not neutral on religion, but that’s completely irrelevant. Saying “You are guilty of the same sin as our mother and it cost her her life in the end” about a woman who got murdered is creepy as hell whether you’re a theist, deist, atheist or pantheist.

              I’ve acknowledged to be somewhat agnostic on the topic of Anthony, but the post about Myers still fails to present any significant evidence. It’s all “Naomi and Dave are bad, so Anthony can’t possibly be the bad guy”. Binary thinking like that won’t convince anybody, let alone the nerds inside the “skeptic” community.

            2. @Clark, It’s not completely irrelevant if you’re under yout own form of extreme influence. It can certainly affect tolerance and veracity, and as was shown by PZ’s icey heart gang, impair one’s sense of common decency and humanity toward others.

              Nobody is trying to convince the “nerds inside the ‘skeptic’ community;” they can stomp around and dress in black all they want in their own cave.

              The problem is when they go out of their own cave in search of conquest, and attack others in their own domains because they don’t agree with their thinking.

              SD really doesn’t need your lecturing; he makes deliberate, weighted choices, and has more than sufficient intellect. If you’re going to “defend” his purpose here by commenting elsewhere, he could do without your attaching qualifying remarks like, “Sure, he can be over the top,” which serves to build you up but does him a disservice.

              I don’t think you’re all black and white. I think you have potential as a human being. But when it comes to respecting people’s religion out of basic courtesy and kindness, and taking a definitive stand against scammers without sharing a beer and group hug with them out back, you’re a fuckup.

              Change your life, Clark. Go for that cookie.

            3. @Doc Smartin,

              Again, the Atheist community isn’t the topic here.

              Anthony made a statement that sounds borderline insane to any outsider.
              Myers called him out on it.
              Instead of writing an insightful post giving Myers the other side of the coin, SD posted a post full of irrelevant ranting with no evidence to back up his claims.

              If you think I’m disappointed by this meaningless and avoidable feud because (and only because) I’m an anti-theist, then maybe you should have those cookies examined before taking another one.

              And regarding the bit on religion:

              I simply care whether something is true or not. As soon as someone says “I believe in X, and I believe in it so strongly that nothing you say will change my mind”, we do have a problem on our hands, especially when X teaches people to become homophobes and misogynists.

              Of course, there are millions of people who practice religion without disrespecting the rights of women or LGBTs, but they genereally rely on the same dangerous framework of demanding respect for views that can’t possibly be proven right or wrong.

              Of course, everyone can choose their own beliefs and nobody is trying to take that away from people. Atheists don’t storm churches and heckle “There is no god”, and nobody gets offended at “Bless you” or “Thank god”.

              We simply state that you can’t claim respect for what you believe simply for believing it. You have the freedom to practice your religion and nobody inside the skeptic community challenges that. However, as soon as you voice your beliefs publicly, others have the freedom to challenge you on that.

              Especially when said beliefs come down to blaming a woman for getting murdered by her husband.

              Btw, in case the “stomp around and dress in black” pieace wasn’t purely humor: There are lots of cheerful events in Atheist/Skeptic groups – meet-ups, fundraising for the poor (just food, no lectures), family events, lobbyists for gay rights, womens rights, rights of children to get proper education, demonstrations for the separation of church and state and projects for members of the clergy who have lost the faith and don’t know what to do.

              It all reflects the intention of removing bad beliefs with adverse effects on people from society and respecting people for what they are, not what they believe in.

              Maybe visit one? Some do have cookies, I’ve heard.

            4. @Clark :: {Even tho you should be starting your forever hiatus from this site by now} :: you say ::

              I simply care whether something is true or not. As soon as someone says “I believe in X, and I believe in it so strongly that nothing you say will change my mind”, we do have a problem on our hands

              Are you saying then that you are an agnostic rather than an atheist?

              What proof will it require for you to believe in a Higher Power? How do you qualify this type of “proof”?

              What even is “true”? (something philosophers WAY smarter than you have been debating for a thousand+ years)

              Or, perhaps a better question …

              How do you blindly justify the very type of anti-rational hypocrisy you condemn :: while simultaneously exhibiting it using the same type of off-topic emotionally driven “red herring” arguments?

              … like the “ALL Religions hate on GLBTs” or “religion = bad cuz they publicly espouse their beliefs”?

              You are doing all the things you condemn … so blatantly that it takes only reading a few sentences of your nonsense to see how ignorant you are to your own ignorance.

              In fact, considering the type of circular logic & false-rationalism you subscribe to, I’d figure St. Anselm’s Ontological Argument would be enough to convince you of the “existence” of an all-powerful all-knowing “God”.

              But probably you never even heard of it. Or Gödel’s.

              Because you are a n00b.

              Plz take a permanent hiatus from voicing your retardation on this site and go back to suck on papa PZ’s peeny.

            5. Clark said: “…they genereally rely on the same dangerous framework of demanding respect for views that can’t possibly be proven right or wrong.”

              “Same dangerous framework?”

              “Generally?”

              “Demanding?”

              You’re like a steamroller with one gear and no brakes.

              HAVING a view isn’t the same as DEMANDING that YOU have the same view, Clark.

              SHARING a view with those willing to hear it is not DEMANDING that they (and certainly, you) have that view, Clark.

              Even if you can’t respect someone else’s view, you can and should respect their RIGHT to have that view. That means not attacking them or spitting in their face just for having it.

              You could also try simply RESPECTING OTHERS as human beings!

              But coexistence is such a bitch when those “other people” aren’t exactly like you or up to your “standards of thought.”

              The reality is, you don’t want people having religion or talking to others about it. You reverse construct your flimsy rationalizations and non-arguments to support that objective.

              It’s all about you controlling and dominating others because you feel you and your views are superior.

              You’re such a hypocritical bigot, Clark: a deluded, pompous, self-appointed exterminator of differing worldviews.

          2. @Clark

            Again, the Atheist community isn’t the topic here.

            The atheist community wasn’t the topic. But in this reply it is.

            Anthony made a statement that sounds borderline insane to any outsider.

            When you read it stripped of its original context, and from your worldview as a militant atheist that openly shows an utter lack of respect for a person who’s beliefs differ from yours–yeah, in that light it could look a little crazy.

            Myers called him out on it.

            Myers is a dick. I wish he would just stick to talking about science, and leave out the rest. But I can’t force that on him.

            Instead of writing an insightful post giving Myers the other side of the coin, SD posted a post full of irrelevant ranting with no evidence to back up his claims.

            Actually, @SD first emailed Myers regarding the article. As far as I can tell, the email(s) was/were ignored. Then @SD posted the articles.

            There is evidence here. The alternate point of view on the events of those days is recorded here. But you seem so certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong, I don’t think you’d find the evidence compelling. I think the only thing that might convince you is talking to Anthony in person, and that isn’t likely to happen. (And it shouldn’t be necessary.)

            And regarding the bit on religion:

            I simply care whether something is true or not. As soon as someone says “I believe in X, and I believe in it so strongly that nothing you say will change my mind”, we do have a problem on our hands, especially when X teaches people to become homophobes and misogynists.

            Or, for example, if X teaches you that it’s totally cool to defame someone and call a person a “fuckwit” and then never do any fact checking or retract that statement. I have a problem with that.

            Of course, everyone can choose their own beliefs and nobody is trying to take that away from people.

            But you and Myers seem to have decided that it’s perfectly acceptable to call out and heckle individuals because they believe something that you don’t like, agree with, or understand.

            Atheists don’t storm churches and heckle “There is no god”, and nobody gets offended at “Bless you” or “Thank god”.

            Gee that’s good to know. But, are you sure about that? ’cause if Myers is going around driving nails through communion wafers
            http://www.conservapedia.com/PZ_Myers#Communion_host_incident
            and if he’s into calling someone a religious fuckwit based on one letter taken out of context and the rantings of a con artist Internet Marketing scammer, then maybe heckling a church isn’t too far off in the future.

            When Myers does those things, he’s not `helping the atheist cause’ or whatever, he’s just being a dick. Everybody, no matter how rational they like to pretend that they are, has their own version of “evil”, their own version of, for lack of a non-religious term to describe it, “the devil”. For Myers (and I’m pretty sure for you) all of organized religon is your “the devil”. You write as though it is the sole cause of all the bad things that happen in the world, and that’s ridiculous.

            We simply state that you can’t claim respect for what you believe simply for believing it.

            Wow. You sound so sure. You sound so certain. You sound so righteous. What gives you the right to assert that sort of thing for all of the human beings living on planet Earth? Who died and made you god? Why should you have the power to pass judgement on the beliefs of everyone everywheres?

            You have the freedom to practice your religion and nobody inside the skeptic community challenges that.

            Gee. It’s so nice of you to give them that limited freedom. Thanks, @Clark!

            However, as soon as you voice your beliefs publicly, others have the freedom to challenge you on that.

            Reciprocity is fun! I get to challenge you right back! :-P (Are you sure this is really the way you want to live? With everyone calling each other out and challenging each other all the time? It can be very exhausting.)

            Except, in the case of Myers v. Anthony it isn’t exactly equal anyway. Myers has a whole blog to shout and yell from and Anthony doesn’t. Hmmm…

            Especially when said beliefs come down to blaming a woman for getting murdered by her husband.

            IMHO, I don’t think Anthony ever meant to imply that. Sure, I agree it totally looks like he was implying that from Myers’ article. But Myers’ article was just a re-hash of a section of Naomi’s fake death threats post. Naomi, much like a tabloid “journalist”, has great skill at taking bits of fact and spinning them together in a totally lying way so as to misrepresent things. Surely this concept is not new to you, so perhaps you shouldn’t dismiss without some consideration.

            Btw, in case the “stomp around and dress in black” pieace wasn’t purely humor: There are lots of cheerful events in Atheist/Skeptic groups – meet-ups,

            Yes, there are. Except mostly they’re atheist meetups and they just call themselves skeptics. It pains me the way “skeptic” has so quickly come to be just another clique and just a code word for “atheist-that-hates-religion”. I haven’t been to very many of those meetups because most of the time all they do is sit around and make fun of religion or talk about `how can we get people to not be religious?’. That kind of activity is largely divisive, un-productive, and un-helpful.

            fundraising for the poor (just food, no lectures), family events, lobbyists for gay rights, womens rights, rights of children to get proper education, demonstrations for the separation of church and state and projects for members of the clergy who have lost the faith and don’t know what to do.

            Yeah. The Unitarian Universalist church I go to does those things too. Except, since it isn’t anti-religion it has a lot more members.

            It all reflects the intention of removing bad beliefs with adverse effects on people from society

            I’m all for removing bad beliefs from society (e.g. the belief that people can easily make money online or the belief that alternative medicine is a valid substitute for a visit to an M.D.).

            The trouble is: you and I, I think we disagree on what the worst sort of belief is. To my mind, the worst sort of thing you can be is certain. See, certainty leads to righteousness and zealtry. And zealtry acts as a justification for the committing of atrocities and `the ends justifies the means’ and all the rest of it. With the possible exception of psychopaths, every person that ever did something evil always believed that their actions were justified at the time that they did them. The moment you stop questioning your own motivations, you become at risk for the same folly.

            Don’t be so quick to rush to judgement on a person you’ve never even met based on one thing that they wrote in a time of great personal, emotional stress.

            You and Myers–you are so much like the very sort of religious kook you are trying to fight against. Yet you cannot see it.

            and respecting people for what they are, not what they believe in.

            That would be great. If you could start respecting people who happen to be religious, I think that would be a giant step forward. Let me know when you get started on that.


            Furry cows moo and decompress.

    3. @SD,

      Ok, so I’m a couple days late (which, on the Internet, is like five lifetimes) but I have just posted on Token Skeptic’s blog. I’m going to post it here too in a blockquote in case it doesn’t survive the censorship, er I mean, moderation process:

      Wyrd says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
      May 17, 2012 at 3:46 pm [NOTE: that’s definitely not local time–Wyrd]
      Hi,

      Thanks for posting this link. I tweeted it and facebooked it to be nice.
      .

      Those scammers really are the lowest of the low.
      .

      I think it’s really cool that you’re a skeptic. I am too. (https://twitter.com/#!/wyrdestgeek)
      .

      I have to say, though, I’ve got some issues with the person that seems to own/run your web host.
      .

      P.Z. Myers says neat things sometimes. However, when P. Z. characterized Anthony Navarro Jr. as “an evil scumbag” P.Z. was wrong. P.Z. shot his mouth off without knowing what he was talking about and he has yet to set the record straight.
      http://freethoughtblogs . com/pharyngula/2011/09/30/anthony-navarro-is-an-evil-scumbag/ (link broken on purpose but you can fix it)
      .

      To date, 47 people have “liked” the post. It’s been tweeted 25 times. I have no idea how many times it’s been viewed.
      .

      I’ve actually *read* comments written by the *actual* Anthony Navarro Jr. He’s not crazy. He’s not evil. Yes, he *is* religious, but not in a crazy, “evil,” “scumbag,” “fuckwit,” “kook” way. P.Z. should not be allowed to continue to leave his blog post up defaming Anthony without citing better evidence. Which (I am asserting) he will not be able to produce.
      .

      What you’ve got to ask yourself is: what does “skeptic” actually mean to you? Does “skeptic” just mean “atheist”? Does “skeptic” mean we pour hatred and derision upon everything a religious person does? Does “skeptic” mean that we prejudice ourselves against people just because they happen to be religious, and they freak out a bit when their brother up and disappears suddenly leaving no clear indication of where he’s gone or why?
      .

      Prejudice is always wrong no matter what guise it comes in.
      .

      “Skeptic” should mean we seek out facts where-ever they might lead–even if that means having to accept disquieting truths.
      .

      In this case, the truth is: Anthony isn’t a crazy religious nut. P.Z. falsely characterized him as such. AFAIK, P.Z. hasn’t ever bothered to post a retraction or even a correction.
      .

      And your blog is hosted on P. Z.’s server.
      .

      I hope you’ll take the time to do some research on this.
      .

      The Scamworld video is good but it’s actually only the tip of the ice berg. Folks don’t always get sold to boiler rooms. Sometimes something even more insidious happens–they buy info “products” that (they believe) will teach them how to be just like Frank Kern’s A-team syndicate. What do you suppose might happen if a person were to attempt that?
      .

      CLUE: http://saltydroid.info/alison-in-plunderland/
      .

      Notice that the focus of the story is Dave. Anthony’s a very important, but somewhat minor character. That’s because Dave (not Anthony) is the one that did something totally crazy and messed up. Naomi Dunford is (yet another) Internet Marketing scammer.
      .

      I eagerly await your response.
      .


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      I intentionally had the link back to the original offending post be broken. It’s a (probably pointless, naive) attempt to prevent some sort of automatic system from alerting P.Z. thereby giving him a chance to delete it before Token Skeptic even sees it.

      I have all those stupid periods in there to force more whitespace. I wanted my many, meandering paragraphs to be spaced out better. That way, when someone’s eyes start to glaze over, I have a chance to re-hook them with a line that’s standing out by itself lower down in the text.

      But now I think on it–directly linking here was probably the Bad Move. I seem to recall P.Z. saying something about automatically deleting links back to saltydroid.info.

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Lanna,

          Thanks.

          Alas, it appears my comment did not make it. Too long, I suppose. Too contentious. It would probably take Little Kitten a long time to read through and process what I wrote, and it’s a lot easier just to deny the comment.

          It’s sad. I mean, I get that there might be times that random woo woos that might attempt to spam a blog… but it isn’t exactly as if there are a lot of replies there.

          At least when I posted something negative on a skepchick’s blog a while back, the comment itself stayed up and the individual that wrote the blog post responded with a CYA-style thing that went like this: I haven’t had a chance to personally verify the claims from the ittybiz blog

          So–definitely not what I would, definitely not a retraction, but at least the comment itself stayed up.

          It is, of course, totally up to Token Skeptic and/or Myers and/or freethoughtsblog whether they want to allow a comment to be posted or not.

          However, it is disingenuous, insular and (dare I say) even scammy to claim to be all about skepticism and critical thinking, but then simply not post things that might be contentious.

          I am becoming upset with http://freethoughtsblog.com . It doesn’t seem very free.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

  32. @Clark, Salty droid already did that article putting forth all the reason PZ Meyers was wrong. He wrote before Meyers opened his giant gas bag and gifted us all with his nonsense. Perhaps you missed that one. The Dunford/Navarro story was well under way before Meyers put his foot into the shit pile. Go back and read before you argue. If you walk into the movie theater half way through the movie do you ask everyone to stop and explain to you, in detail, everything you missed before they can start the film up again.

    And just because you did miss the first half of the story, it doesn’t make the rest of us wrong because you don’t have the context or all of the information. No one here is going to do your homework. Go back, read the Navarro/Dunford posts, then form an opinion.

    1. @What the what,

      So blaming women for getting murdered is okay as long as you’re writing to people who’re bottom feeding scammers?

      1. @Clark, yes. Clearly, when I stated (1) Droid already laid out all of the relevant information in a prior article(s) before Meyers wrote about it and (2) Do your own reading, don’t expect others to rehash what has already been said….I so obviously meant that we should blame women for being murdered because scammers are bad.

        Your attempt to reframe my comment with such an extreme and absolutely absurd question is a very tired and very poor argument tactic. Although I do appreciate you taking zero number of minutes to think about what I said and actually respond to the content of my comment.

        asshole.

    2. @What the what ::

      Exactly.

      And here’s the sequence in fact.

      I had that freakish situation totally under control … having outed Dunford as a total fuckstar … and staying well away from all the personal personal stuff. I knew the personal stuff was a good story … but it was too much of a tinder box with vulnerable people and damaged emotions. Keeping the family and victims out of it is my normal approach :: and it was the right call on this one … as usual.

      This is the response that PZ Myers forced …

      http://saltydroid.info/alison-in-plunderland/

      It turned out to be a hugely important story I know … and it was good for the cause … and good for the whole. But Dave disappeared afterward and hasn’t been seen since. Too high a price for Alison even though she would never say that.

      And @Clark … you useless piece of shit … @Alison is a friend of mine … and I care very much about her family … like so many of the other families that I’m deeply involved with off site. So please … please … for the love of jesus … shut your mouth and fuck off.

      1. @SD,

        For a consumer watchdog, the level of debate on this site is unbearable.

        I’ve always been open to real arguments and all I’ve gotten was personal insults and red herrings. This is shameful for anybody, let alone a lawyer who should know the basics of reasoning and logic.

        To Jack, Connie, Lanna and all the other people on the site I can’t think of right now, thanks for your insightful comments. I’m taking a hiatus.

        1. @Clark ::

          Make it a forever hiatus … and every time you look in the mirror over the next 20 years … think about how much I’ve always loathed your ignorance … and your equivocating uselessness.

          Does that not sound like something a lawyer would say?

          Gosh well then I guess I’m not a fucking lawyer … something else you must have missed while remaining “open to real arguments.”

          And finally … bite me.

  33. Great piece, Salty. I nearly got sucked into the Dunford Trap a couple of years ago, and I count myself lucky that she wasn’t able to extract any money from me.

    As well as your site, I’ve been reading The Millenium Project, http://ratbags.com/rsoles, especially his series of articles on Amway, among other things…

    Keep up the great work.

  34. Nearing Maximum Geek-Altitude…

    http://radar.oreilly.com/2012/05/four-short-links-17-may-2012.html

    From Nat Torkington

    “Nat has chaired the O’Reilly Open Source Convention and other O’Reilly conferences for over a decade. He ran the first web server in New Zealand, co-wrote the best-selling Perl Cookbook, and was one of the founding Radar bloggers. He lives in New Zealand and consults in the Asia-Pacific region”

    ….

    “Four short links: 17 May 2012
    Demythologizing Big Data, Online Scams, A Useful Computer Vision Library, and Opening Politics”

    1. @Jack,

      Every time I see a link back to the scamworld article, it’s like a little ray of sunshine for me.

      (Yeah, I know–it’s not about me. But it makes me happy anyway.)

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

    2. @Jack,

      That computer vision thing is trey awesome. It makes me wanna go build a robot. :-)

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Jack,

          If nothing else, maybe the next time someone makes a CG movie with a flying robot they can get the physics right by using the bots in the video as a model. I see the robots doing all those little dips and side moves at the beginning and end of their main movement, and I realize that each time it’s doing that to either create or cancel it’s momentum in a given direction.

          It’s just totally, geekily awesome. I want one.

          For stopping scammers? I dunno. Maybe some could be unleashed at a big IM-MMO conference and the bots could drop {anti}-propaganda messages on the audience below. I don’t think it’d be very effective, but it’d be oh so cool.


          Furry cows moo and decompress.

  35. Here is what Marie Forleo, another scam artist, has just sent to her subscribers. Remember her from her slutty dances with Laura Roeder, wiggling her tush to sell her course? After Tony Robbins now she’s promoting Eben Pagan. Salty, it’s about time you start uncovering the Forleo gal who’s another shameless unicorn seller. And she charges 1999 bucks for her unicorns!

    Hi …….. !

    If you have a message, teaching or expertise that you want to offer to the world in the form of information products like audio training, DVDs, coaching programs, etc., then you’re gonna LOVE this.

    If not, no worries. Delete this message as you probably won’t find this worth your time :)

    Since you’re still reading . . .

    Here’s the scoop:

    You’re invited to a live teleclass I’m holding this Friday to interview my dear friend, and one of the brightest marketing teachers I’ve ever met, Eben Pagan.

    Eben was one of the first people who believed in me when I was first starting my business as a life coach. He’s been a friend and mentor for over a decade plus he’s one of the BEST teachers I’ve ever met when it comes to marketing and packaging information.

    I’m pumped to interview him this Friday at 2pm EST/ 11am PST if you want to listen in.
    Here’s what you’ll learn:

    How to create best-selling information products (he’s grown a $25M company!!)

    How to organize your content and ideas so that they’re easily understood, and so they have high perceived value

    Why some information products sell better than others, and the types of topics that work best when selling information (it’s important to get this right!)

    If you want to join me on this live call and have access to the replay, click here.

    As you know, I do NOT endorse many people or their programs. But when I’ve personally tested and used something and it’s that good, it’s my responsibility to let you know!

    One last thing…

    Whether you join me for the call or not, you have to go check out Eben’s free video training on creating info products while it’s still up.

    Pay special attention in video #1 about “emotional needs” – this is really the thing that I see separates the people who make an impact from those who struggle with their teaching.

    I’m a proud affiliate of Eben and his training. He gets my full endorsement as I know the deep level of care, training and attention he gives to his customers.

    If you do nothing else but check out his free videos and listen to our free call, it will dramatically increase your ability to effectively communicate your message and make the impact in the world you are meant to make.

    This is some of the most valuable training on this topic I’ve ever seen, but it won’t be around long so please scoop it up and use it to grow your business and get your message out to more people.

    Hope to “see you” on Friday’s call!

    Love,

    Marie

    1. @Sick and Tired,

      “Hi …….. !”

      This is the best part of her entire email. As if she forgot she had to be excited about her email so threw the exclamation point t in at the end. I imagine if you did this in real life it would go something like this:

      “Hi!” {long awkward pause} {JAZZ HANDS}

  36. Does anyone know if there is currently any investigations underway, to try and have these guys answer for their actions or will they just walk away scott free?

    What can be done?

    You see this sort of thing everyday on Facebook who incidentally are allowing all ads through at the moment even if they violate every single FTC legislation!

    MA

  37. You people are sad, hopeless, hate-mongering fools.

    Apparently Salty Droid wants to save the world. But how does he go about it?

    He bashes one internet marketers like a fucking 5 year old. Its pathetic.
    A lot more people like Eben Pagan than those who like dipshit saltydroid.

    You think all these people are idiots? Brainwashed “cultists”? You think they don’t own businesses that have benefited from the teachings of Eben Pagan? Or Joe Polish or Dean Jackson? I sure as hell know our business wouldn’t have half the success it does not w/out these guys.

    They actually deliver value to the world.

    The part that really pisses the droid off is the $. If they were charging $99 a course, droid wouldn’t have one rational arguement to make. What makes his hate “logical” to HIS cult, are the $1997 price tags some of these marketers charge.

    Or some of the unethical shit they do they major corporations have been doing for decades.

    This isn’t about internet marketing, its about our society. There are good and bad in every society.

    The real problem with internet marketing is simply the fact that people are stupid. Stupid people will always get taken advantage of. They exist on this site, on Frank Kerns list, in every segment of society that you can imagine.

    But you also find many, smart, successful people as well.

    What pisses me off about the droid are his overidealistic views of the world. People get ripped off my internet marketers the same exact fucking way they get ripped off by small businesses every day the world turns.

    Corruption is prevalent ANYWHERE YOU GO IN THIS WORLD.

    So who the fuck is the droid to be the judge? I know scammers who work completely offline, scamming people in the home remodeling industry. These people do NOT EVEN DELIVER VALUE.

    At least Kern delivers value.
    At least Eben Pagan delivers value.

    I’ve seen their material, and I’ve seen droids, and what droid delivers is not value.

    He’s trying to change stupid people. But he doesn’t seem to understand stupid people have existed since the days of Adam & Eve.

    A blog is sure as fuck not changing a thing.

    What droid really seems to be doing is leaching off the fame of these scammers, by basing his entire blog off these types.

    Problem is, he ignores all the people who have been helped by these “scammers”. He intentionally chooses to focus just on the negative aspects.

    People are greedy, its their nature. Droid is greedy for recognition but he misses the fact that people are stupid. Stupid people will continue to make stupid decisions, and businesses all around the world will continue to take their money.

    NOT JUST INTERNET MARKETERS. This shit happens EVERYWHERE.

    Open your eyes people.
    If you want to talk about something important, that is fucking up the world more than these tiny internet marketers ever could… talk about fucking wallstreet.

    Talk about algotrading.
    Talk about the millions of real world scams that don’t even involve the internet.

    The sad reality of our existence is people have always been taken advantage of, always will, and spreading hate isn’t going to solve a thing.

    Thats why one must question droids intentions AS MUCH as he wants you to question these so called “scammers”. Who I just call smart opportunists. Are any of them in jail?

    No.

    Are any of them hate mongering douchebags to the extent that droid is?

    No.

    So in my books at least they’re trying to add value to the world.
    So what if they charge a lot?
    So what if they take advantage of stupid people?

    DO YOU REALLY THINK STUPID PEOPLE WILL EVER LEARN?

    My own brother has been like that his whole life.
    Even when he tries to make good decisions, with good businesses, they ALWAYS take advantage of him. Because he’s too stupid to think more than 5 minutes into the future.

    The one time he got scammed for a lot of money, guess what? He smartened up for a little bit.

    But my preaching to him never changed a fucking thing. The same way droids useless blog is NOT changing stupid people.

    In fact, if you want a real honest perspective of life.
    The best way droid could teach these people, is to scam them. They’re too stupid to learn otherwise.

    Thats the point he misses. So imo, scammers serve this world a purpose no other legitimate folks ever could. Stupid people always have to learn from their own mistakes. Most of the time they don’t. But if they are scammed on a large enough scale… a lot of them DO wind up learning something.

    Something droid could never teach people about life.

    Getting scammed evolves peoples minds.

    Yes I said it.

    Scamming is good.
    There is no better lesson you can teach these types by taking all thier money.

    The real problem with droid, is he fails to explain all the good that is created through evil. He will never talk about that shit. But guess what? It happens all the time.

    These people NEED to get scammed. Otherwise they will never learn.

    His mind can’t work in a truely objective sense.

    1. @DOG,

      …and yet you feel compelled to write a huge response. On a blog which “is as sure as fuck not changing a thing”.

      Funny that.

      Don’t let the door hit you on the posterior on the way out…it’d damage your vocal cords, for one thing.

    2. @GOD,

      WOW! GOD took some time out of It/Her/His busy schedule to comment on Salty’s blog. I guess Salty really is important after all!

      THANKS, God!

      I’m sorry I don’t have time to leave you the detailed point-by-point response your very long rant so clearly demands. {/not really sorry}

      Quick question: shouldn’t you be busy defending against the philosophical problem of Evil [wikipedia.org] or something?
      http://youtu.be/Qzf8q9QHfhI
      Oh wait–defending Frank, Eben, et. al. I get it! You were defending evil! Good job, God! You got me on that one!


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

      1. @Wyrd,

        Holy Crap! GOD callled…he wants us to stop focusing on a tightly defined problem that has real and measurable negative effects on people…he would prefer we eradicate all evil from the world before we focus on this one…..

        Ummmm, GOD….can’t you just fix all that with one big *woooosh*?

    3. @GOD ::

      I’m glad to hear the scammers have helped you so much. You certainly sound like a well adjusted and successful adult.

      One tiny point though :: in a previous comment here you mentioned this regards how Eban has helped you …

      I don’t know what Eban Pagan knows about marketing, I doubt he knows shit. But he absolutely was killer in the seduction communities.

      So that’s confusing because then today you said …

      I sure as hell know our business wouldn’t have half the success it does not [freudian sic] w/out these guys.

      But you’re right about how I rarely/never show the positive side of people getting scammed :: and I want to win at least 7 Pulitzers and 5 Grammys … so I spent five minutes finding your super successful webz business so I could check myself before I wrecked myself. And here we go …

      http://www.warriorforum.com/members/redshifted.html

      Anything else I can help you with today … or should I go back to saving stupid people from themselves now?

  38. Nothing can be done.

    You can’t change stupid people & I don’t know why droid even tries.
    There are stupid people in every segment of society, and the only way most these idiots learn is by being scammed.

    So scammers serve a more important purpose than this blog does.
    At least they’re teaching stupid people in the only way stupid people can be taught.

    Just another reason I have no qualms taking advantage of folks. I’ve warned people so many times about scams that happen in the real world everyday OFF the internet. But they don’t listen. Not untill they get scammed at least.

    Thats why I say just shut this whole fucking blog down.

    Its really just to bitch and complain about the fact that droid can’t change stupid people.

    1. @Rob,

      Do you “have no qualms taking advantage of folks” in your waterproofing business or another line of work?

    2. @Rob,

      Nothing can be done.

      You can’t change social activists & I don’t know why you even try.
      There are scammers in every segment of society, and the only way most these idiots learn is by being hit in the pocket book and not being able to make money scamming.

      So social activists serve a more important purpose than you do.
      At least they’re teaching scammers in the only way scammers can be taught.

      Just another reason I have no qualms helping to make it hard for scammers to make money. I’ve warned scammers many times about jail terms that are imposed in the real world everyday for crimes committed OFF the internet. But they don’t listen. Not untill they go to jail or have their money taken away at least.

      Thats why I say just shut the whole fucking Scamworld down.

      Its really just to bitch and complain about the fact that droid can’t change stupid people.

      1. @What the what,

        whoops!!! missed a line!. Last line should read: It’s really just to bitch and complain about the fact that scamworld denizens can’t make money in real businesses.

        P.S. I wish I had an edit button

    3. @Rob,

      Yeah, you know, it’s a bitch. After a bus or train crash or some other mass casualty event, you go into that ER and there’s all those people there. No matter how hard you try some die.

      Well, just throw up your hands and give up! Nothing can be done! Let’s just give up on all of emergency and urgent care! It’s a waste!

      Oh wait. False dichotomy [wikipedia.org] much?

      Just because you can’t save everyone, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you can’t save anyone.

      True, you will never save every person/starfish/critically injured person. But that’s no reason not to try.

      1. @Wyrd,

        To be honest, the whole of medicine appears to be a waste – we all die in the end, so perhaps I should just disappear off to the golf course instead of going into work?

        @Rob

        how would you feel if it was your loved one who was taken advantage of?

  39. I thought Filsaime was gone forever after the Verge article, but this morning my “mailing list septic tank” email account got a request to confirm subscription.

    His emails are the slimiest I’ve ever checked out, so I couldn’t bring myself to subscribe again. But do these people never stop? FFS.

    1. @Conflicted Pandas,

      But do these people never stop?

      In a word: No.

      In several words: Tricking people into giving them money seems to be a part of their basic identity. They don’t seem to know or understand any other way to live. Lying… It’s What They Do.


      Furry cows moo and decompress.

        1. @Wyrd, No. So…

          Do Until John Provides Proof Of Investigative Prowess
          If John Posts Comment
          Reply To Comment
          Quote John’s:

          “I cover such issues of ugly ness and I do not do it for profit.”

          Ask “Where? Proof?”
          End-IF
          Loop

          1. @Jack, Incidentally, it appears there’s now a thing whereby the IM clowns optimise for people searching for keywords involving “scam”.

            The article then goes something like, “Yes, there’re scams in the IM world, which is really sad and disgusting, but my thing is totally not a scam, so send me your internet moneys.”

            or

            “All those other outfits are total scam!” (True.) “But my thing is totally legit, which you can tell because I’ve uncovered all those other scams.” (Big fat lie.)

            I was trying to teach a colleague to google for “[brand name] sucks” or “[brand name] scam”, but apparently that’s not an indicator of anything any more.

            1. @Conflicted Pandas,

              Yeah, @Connie’s correct (of course). They’ve had that aspect of google search results gamed for I don’t know how long.

              Whenever a scammer is sucksessful enough to have a legion of affiliates on the teet that’s one thing they can send them out to semi-autonomously do is create near-infinite fake sites that rank well for “XXX scam” where XXX is the name of the product or scammer.

              Then when someone hits one of those top results they get taken to an extremely pathetic looking page that reads something like:

              Is XXX a scam? Some say yes. Others say no. Look! Here’s a monkey!! Why does Chewbacca live on Endor?

              XXX does all kinds of snazzy things for all kinds of snazzy people. He helped cure a bunch of people from leprosy with his info-product just last week!!! He’s like Jesus or something.

              We know that sometimes someone will claim that XXX is a scam. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But those people are just jealous or else they never really tried to put XXX’s plan into action!!!

              Click here to buy a whole bunch of shit from XXX and CLAIM YOUR BIRTHRIGHT!! YOUR DESTINY!!!1!”

              Just throw in some typos, gratuitous bolding and maybe even a splash of the ol’ accursed blink tag and you’ve got pretty much every one of these pages ever.

              And they pop-up kind of whenever like weeds. For a time, I had a Google alert for things relating to Stephen evil-bastard Pierce. Roughly once a week there’d be some new crap-page of text somewherez on the Internet that used the “teach the controversy” tactic I cited above to make the case that Stephen was totally awesome and also it linked to Stephen’s newest crap.

              ——–

              Side note 0: Sometimes even without a gaggle of affiliates these pages still spring up all over the place. Presumably those are created by the scammer him/herself.

              Side note 1: Even though the quality of these pages is abysmal on par, still they might sometimes be effective. Because generally anyone who actually runs a search like this for real has already been caught by one of these scammers in a semi-vulnerable state. So the potential victim has already been convinced emotionally that this is the action to take. But they’re having an internal conflict with their reason which is telling them that, no matter how desperate they are at the moment, this shiny bauble being dangled in front of them is not the answer. A person in that state can be pushed over the edge into making the stupid choice by almost anything. Even a page with horrendous writing.

              Side note 2: Even when these pages aren’t successful at convincing anyone, I think their other purpose–either primary purpose or secondary purpose–is simply to influence the page ranking of the thing being linked to (SEO). This might not have ever worked. Probably instead though is that this used to work, but hopefully doesn’t work anymore. Probably instead, instead though is that this still sometimes works somewhat.

              Side note 3: Notwithstanding (1) or (2), these pages still serve the mal-purpose of muddying the waters and creating the appearance of room for reasoned debate and different points of view when, in fact, there’s no such thing. These people are scammers. They lie. They cheat. They steal. But worst of all, they mislead and undermine peoples’ sense of self-worth and identity in a time of crisis simply to get money form those people. And they will do it forever and ever if they can.


              Furry cows moo and decompress.

            2. @Conflicted Pandas, From the “Affiliate Project X” – 2006/2007

              “First method: attack the product head-on in the headline, for example:

              “I hae project X”
              “Project X is for losers”
              “Project X? For Fools”
              “Project X scammed me”
              “Project X scammed me”
              “Project X. Sucker.”

              Remember that anyone searching for a product name is very close to buying, and if they think that you are going to tell them that the product is a scam, etc, then they will click on your ad (and remember we are even going to start attacking
              the product/genre in our sales letter, so they will cick and stay there as we continue our onslaught before
              we sitch the game up and start our plug).”

              ===============================================
              Aaron Wall’s take:

              “To be honest, I have used the “scam or not” angle before when trying to pull in traffic for something and have called stuff a “scam” when I did not like it, but I have never called something a scam right before trying to sell it.”

              http://www.seobook.com/what-do-you-do-when-affiliates-call-you-scammer-sell-your-product

            3. @Cosmic Connie & all,

              I probably knew that people were SEOing for “scam” in order to claim their scam is totally not a scam.

              The thing that took me aback is when some dude has a large section on his site that blasts actual scams from on high, with articles such as “Empower Network is a scam” (which it IS), so actually being all useful crime fighter etc – and then in the next breath he goes on to recommend other frauducts, in contrast to the ones he’s just correctly identified.

              In other words… ewwww.

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