Consumer Protection Summit :: Suits vs Unicorns

FTC dot America dot Robot

Four score and seven years ago …

… starts a famous speech that I can totally plagiarise because its author and his nut-job wife both died before Mickey Mouse invented copyright tyranny. It ends like this …

… that this nation shall have a new birth of freedom … and that this government of the people :: by the people :: for the people :: shall not perish from the earth.

Fuck yeah!

Cause free.dom is a struggle :: it can progress or it can decay … but stasis is a non-option. Project America’s government of the people :: by the people :: for the people … has been one of the struggle’s great champions. The “of the people” government offers the best :: and only :: defense against the biggest threat to human free.dom … the fucking government.

It’s complicated.

It’s never been perfect :: and it can’t ever be perfected … but it’s always been worth fighting for. Strange whiffs of anti-government idiocy are currently creeping in from the odd-ball fringes to the propaganda mainstream. It’s not fucking helpful. If you want smaller government :: it’s cause you want more effective government … to better protect the rights of the people. If you want larger government :: it’s cause you want more effective government … to better protect the rights of the people.

We all need the fucking government.

We all need the fucking government to constantly improve.

Broadly speaking {in an appropriately normal tone of voice} :: and specifically speaking here at the FakeRobot ShoutFest™ … we need the fucking government.

So just to be totally clear …


Now that’s out the way …

{begin criticism}

The FTC has a YouTube page :: it’s pretty adorable and forward thinking for a bunch of old white people living in the great bastion of banality … Washington DC. Come for the traffic … stay for the comic lack of architecture. Washington DC :: a little taste of the Soviet on the Potomac … make your two-hour Beltway commute in a hybrid SUV like Jesus would do for sures.

Anywayz :: the FTC’s animated “make a complaint” video has been added to my complaints page {which you might notice after reading this parenthetical has moved into the top ten posts} … it’s a useful video.

And this “biz ops totally blow” video :: posted here in 2009 :: was useful too …

Consumer education is part of the mission of the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection. But they also try to educate the scammers about the rules and regulations which might be applicable to them if they suddenly decided that following the rules was an option …

Pretty sweet rules!

If they were enforced and followed … the Biz Op :: Internet Marketing :: MLM :: boiler room :: and self-help coaching “industries” … would all be completely eliminated. But they won’t be followed :: they’ll be totally ignored … natch. And enforcement will be random and slapdash :: burning almost none of the guilty … and breeding further contempt for the law in the black hearts of the lawbreakers.

In 2009 the FTC changed the rules about endorsements :: testimonials :: and non-average results reporting …

… it would have eliminated Internet Marketing :: biz op :: self-help coaching :: MLM … and boiler rooms. But instead it did jack shit nothing :: because we need vision and innovation in enforcement … NOT rule making.

“Don’t be a fucking liar liar pants on fire” :: that rule dates to The Stone Age … and it needs enforcement more than ever in The Information Age.

Last week leaders of many state and federal consumer protection agencies met at Georgetown Law to discuss better education and enforcement during the Consumer Protection Summit. Here’s forty minutes of that three-hour :: people in suits :: C-SPAN extravaganza …

… I watched the whole three hours and took copious notes :: cause I’m gonna win … and winners do boring shit like C-SPAN note-taking.

Believe it!

According to the government :: the government is making “tremendous progress” in the fight against fraud. I guess maybe pulling lol-ridiculous assessments like that out of your ass is one of the upsides of not having taken any objective measurements of your progress. Or maybe it’s an upside of failing to properly define the problem? Or maybe it’s an upside of being ten years behind the times?

Again … it’s complicated.

The truth is that something much closer to zero progress is being made :: maybe-prolly the inverse of progress … where maybe-prolly = definitely-totally.

Speaking of truth :: “if it sounds too good to be true … it probably is.” That cliche must be true :: or it wouldn’t have been repeated five times in three hours by the supposed experts on fraud stopping. “If it sounds too good to be true … then it’s manipulation and we’re sorry that our failures allowed it to happen.” I guess that’s too long :: and too true :: to become an incessantly chanted bureaucratic mantra.

The FTC currently has over 1.8 million complaints on record :: kinda sounded like they were bragging about it. Speaker after speaker talked about the importance filing complaints after you’ve been scammed :: and hey … maybe they’ll even do something about it too {nope}.

It’s similar to how we enforce the drug laws against jobless minorities :: once 15,000ish complaints are registered against an individual :: involving not less than $5 million in external damage … the government may decide to open an investigation. Or wait :: no … we have a totally different enforcement plan for the drug war. Cause this is just life ruining fraud against old people … not something scary and dangerous like smoking some weed and going to a jazzfest.

Complaints are a horrible way to determine enforcement priorities. Scam victims don’t understand the scam business :: that’s why they got fucking scammed. Good scammers :: or super mean scammers :: can avoid complaints altogether through the consistent application of already well formulated manipulation patterns. James Arthur Ray was able to hide DEAD BODIES for fuck sake. Many of the most severely wounded victims are the ones who don’t currently understand {or accept} that they’re wounded victims.

Large-scale conspiratorial crimes can only be defeated with wide-angle strategic planning :: and aggressive investigation and enforcement. The Consumer Protection Summit contained zero talk about conspiracy … but multiple panelists mentioned vending machines scams and Nigerian email phishing scams. It’s the cutting edge of right now … like reruns of Laverne & Shirley.

I want to believe in you government of the people :: by the people :: for the people … but I don’t. You’re fucking it up too hard for anyone to believe in you. People in ScamLand spend more time worrying about me than you :: I’m pretty cool and everything … but that’s just pathetic.

So let me help you out for a minute. I’ll pretend like I don’t know that you’re losing on purpose :: and you pretend to listen before going back to pretending to stop the biz ops of the 1980’s.

Plans 4 Winning & Stuff etc. Provisional Draft Ex Parte

1. Bring RICO cases.

Nobody works alone … so nobody gets charged {or sued} alone. Along with focusing attention on the core of the problem :: this method breeds internal tensions and paranoia. Get shitheads saying … “you’re going to get me arrested” to each other … and everything will change.

Only bring individual cases after you solve the cartel problem {the main fucking problem} :: or after you find an infinite resources tree {ask The Fed about it … they might think they have one} … or a tie wearing government unicorn that shits golden eggs {fat-free organic!}.

2. Bring cases against the most publicly prominent violators {and don’t forget to make them RICO}.

It’s fun to give cases zippy PR names like Operation Clean Sweep :: or Operation Empty Promises … as a way to try to attract public attention to this serious issue.

But you wouldn’t have to worry about attracting attention to Operation Tony Robbins :: just like you don’t have to worry about other scammers taking your rules seriously as long as people like Mr. Robbins are allowed to have shite like this running on their websites for YEARS without interruption …

Like I mentioned, Jeff Walker made $1 million in 24 hours.

Another guy, Frank Kern, made $23 million in a day using four different promotions.

ALL of them have generated this kind of wealth many times over by just repeating their own formulas for success.

And they’re doing this NOW, despite the poor economy.

Why should anyone at the bottom of the scam land pyramid care about your dumb rules whilst shit like that is happening at the top?

3. Attack anyone who attacks free speech.

You suck at consumer education. While is an extensive site :: its presentation is dry and completely lacking in humanity. It could never hope to counter the mind raping propaganda techniques used by the worst of the scammers.

But consumers don’t need you to educate them anymore :: thanks to the Internets … they have each other. Articulate :: smart :: awesome people are getting scammed every day. Their tragic personal stories are the perfect weapon for piercing the self-delusional stupor associated with being defrauded by a conman syndicate. Unfortunately for everything and everyone :: their voices are systematically silenced by the scammers … who understand far better than you the extreme danger posed by quietly dissenting voices.

Very very publicly … bring the enforcement hammer down on any scammer who attempts to use the court system to silence victim :: or critical :: speech. It’s an excellent indicator of who currently has big problems :: or big monies … and it will create massive positive externalities far exceeding what you could hope to achieve with planned educational efforts.

4. Develop resources to help educate local law enforcement :: journalists … and trial lawyers.

Now that you’ve stopped trying to “educate” consumers who will never hear your voice during their critical moments of decision :: and now that you’re done trying to “educate” the scammers who don’t give a shit what you say because they’re criminals … you can help the people who really need your centralized subject matter expertise.

Fraud rackets are hella tricky to understand … but there are big advantages to cracking down on them :: exposing them :: and suing them. Economic damage is the stage upon which most other crimes play out. Decrease fraud … you decrease violence.

Collect and digest complex multi-jurisdictional information :: and then redistribute it back to the smaller nodes in the battle against trust crimes … making the fight easier for everyone.

5. Slap down intermediaries.

The badguys in the fake world are totally reliant on the negligence and greed of the morons in the real world. Cut them off from the real world by slapping down their enablers :: who unlike the scammers … may still have something to lose.

Start with …

— PowerPay — merchant accounts
— Infusionsoft — list management
— Google — paid traffic

End of plan.

Five steps :: same or smaller budget … bigger more valuable results.

I’ll be the $cientologist :: you be the buff black guy …

… help me help you.

>> bleep bloop

179 thoughts on “Consumer Protection Summit :: Suits vs Unicorns”

  1. Pure gold…

    I dont know if you upgraded your OS but you’re kicking ass at well over 120FPS…

  2. Finally internet-connectivity & mass-organization should help THE TIME TO FINALLY REALLY come and put more pressure than in past:

    “The time is coming, and indeed has come, when the advertising pages of our publications must be edited as carefully as the pages of the literary department. The advertising manager should not only refuse objectionable advertisers, but he should refuse all objectionable advertisements. It is quite possible that an advertisement which might be good for the individual advertiser would be injurious to the many who are occupying space in the same publication.”

    Publication date: 1917

    “Fraudulent advertising of realty propositions appears occasionally in various parts of the country and casts opprobrium on the real estate industry, says a writer in the Chicago Daily News. The fraudulent schemes are frequently published alongside of a legitimate real estate man’s proposition. For some time the National Association of Real Estate Boards has been working on a plan to prevent fraudulent advertising of real estate by co-operating with discriminating publishers and bringing due pressure to bear upon publishers who accept advertisements indiscriminately. They found that the majority of publishers aim to print only such advertisements as will bear scrutiny.”

    From: The Advertising age and mail order journal, Volume 20
    Publication date: 1916

  3. Stuff like this is why I keep you in my speed dial.

    Improving the ability of public agencies to fight illegal business practices should be a no-brainer for both consumers and businesses. The former won’t lose their money and the latter won’t have to worry about being associated with dubious practices or outright scams.

  4. Having been under the spell (mind raping) of many of the gurus that you write about on your blog, and having been a long time reader of your blog, I am very fortunate to say that am I no longer so easily duped by the endless spam (scams) these guys send out to their lists. (Eben Pagan flogging Dan Kennedy just yesterday – along with this little gem:

    This from a guy who flogs “how to get laid” junk (his “business”), and who is obviously unable to tell anyone about how to build a profitable business without committing fraud, in fact, without systematically defrauding customer after customer with the help of Anthony Robbins’s NLP, Dan Kennedy’s Renegade Millionaire, Frank Kern’s Mass Control, Jeff Walkers’s Product Launch Formula, Mike Filsaime’s Seven Figure Code, Mike Koenigs Main Street Nonsense, Perry Belcher, Joe Vitale, Harlan Kilstein, Brad Fallon, Jeff Johnson, Ed Dale, James Malinchak, Brian Clark, (this list goes on and on, See SaltyDroid tags for a full list), all sending out daily emails that can be considered fraudulent in terms of their claims, all with “testimonials” from each other used as an endorsement.

    As I said, I am no longer duped by these spam/scam emails, and I attribute at least some of that to your continued efforts (along with many of the insights from people postng comments on this blog, and not to any dry YouTube video posted by the FTC.

    You have saved me hundreds, perhaps thousands (when you consider the boiler room factor), which is more than anyone can say about the work of the FTC.

    Cheers SD.

    1. @Irwin,

      “Mike Koenigs Main Street Nonsense”

      I have bets down for him being able to give it that name and still pound the dollars out of the mind-rapees.

  5. Salty, if the FTC and law enforcement are unwilling to – or for whatever bureaucratic reason – unable to go RICO or engage in some other intervention,
    could consumers band together to file a class action suit against these guys?

    It looks like the Syndicate just got bigger and elected a spokesman to pitch their wares, in the form of Tony Rob-’ems. Who knows what kind of financial agreement he reached with those guys in terms of licensing, royalties, JV proceeds, or consulting fees. We know at least one of these guys has deep pockets.

    Just a thought.

  6. Hi SD,

    Thanks for exposing the ripoff artists and scamsters.

    I was wondering if there are any honest internet marketers or programs out there or all of them fraudulent dream stealers.


    1. @Mike Ruqq,
      “nota bene”, said Chico Marx in a bad Latin accent gesturing to the skies above (or maybe just the SD-header):

      “… you can’t make money online.”

      Nutshell-wise: ’tis the wrong question for the wrong site.

    2. @Mike Ruqq,

      If you had a ‘system’ for making BIG money online would you sell that to the masses?

      Would Apple sell their ‘system’ for making money?

      Would anyone sell their ‘system’ for making money?

      …or would you put that ‘system’ to work 24/7 on your personal behalf?

      Your search for an honest internet marketer is a dead end

    3. @Mike Ruqq,

      The advice tends to be pretty much the same whoever you ask. I’ve been around for a while now and I rarely find anything “advanced” that makes me want to hand over bags of money.

      Get a decent business model, i.e., sell something that actually works, and learn the basics of direct response – there isn’t much more to it. If you’re completely new, listen to the Ilovemarketing stuff. The interviews suck, but the general advice is pretty decent. Just don’t forget to ask yourself “Am I lying to make this work?” and you’ll be fine.

      1. @Clark and others,

        Thanks for your comments and thoughts.

        It is one thing for those selling crap on the WSO forums, which mostly hurts those low income or unemployed. But for those scamsters selling $1K plus programs to widows, orphans and to those who are broke, they better hope they do not rip off any of my family or friends.

        THankfully, I do believe what goes around comes around. Prayerfully payback will be a royal bitch!

        1. @mike ruqq, Or maybe you can follow into Jeff Johnson’s ideas of faking ClickBank popularity that I saw in his helpful YouTube videos and then pick one of his suggested big money markets to sell some infoproducts to from this video at 3’51”:

          He told me that these are the good ones:
          – Paid Surveys…because I heard about people making $150/Hour!!!! Other good numbers I hear from the paid-survey people are $40/hour and $75/hour, but then when I go to Survey Police forum it seems I can’t find anybody who will tell me those words that I want to hear for making that money.
          – Data Entry…but it probably won’t work as good on ClickBank anymore since they (and Google) banned them and the FTC didn’t like the Data Entry idea either
          – Mystery Shopper – which is a good one, because you can just go take the free information from and then sell it to people – or maybe just sell them the link to it.
          – Selling On eBay
          – Affiliate Marketing – I think this one would be fun to trick people with and call it a Data Entry or Home Typing product.
          – Make Money Online (see the first three ideas)

          1. @Jack, The ClickBank new contract got mad at mr. Johnson’s idea of faking popularity:

            “You will not interfere with or manipulate ClickBank’s “Gravity” (defined as rankings of ClickBank’s Marketplace (as defined below in Section 3(c)) tracking of Commissions, or the normal flow of traffic to, through, or from the ClickBank Services.”

        2. @mike ruqq, Or maybe the new-faced can help you with a magic formula for money which it told me is:

          It can’t say who the owner is right now because seems to be xfer-pending:

          Registrant Contact:


          161 First St.
          Fourth Floor
          Cambridge, MA 02142

          But so far I’ve got good financial advice from it like this one from the terms:


          It’s probably OK though because the company comes from the state-of-good-and-decency…Utah:

          “This Agreement, and your relationship with under this Agreement, shall be governed by the laws of the State of Utah without regard to its conflict or choice of law provision”

          It’s why I was happy to go ahead and put my phone number in there.

    4. @Mike Ruqq, For anyone starting online today forget the candy-floss dreams pimped by the Internet Marketing Gurus. Just forget it, its all a total BS sales pitch. You’ll see on this very website, they are imploding at a rapid rate. Most Internet Marketers, Bloggers and Affiliate Marketers are parasites who use the internet medium to take your money by blatantly lying. Period!

      Common Example: How can a guy who’s been online for 18 months tell you how to make money? Or how can a guru tell you how to make money from a ‘NEW’ strategy, that’s not even been tested over time. But this happens every day of the week.

      Most of these guys are still in nappies, they’ve not been in the trenches and earned their stripes = They are Billy Bullshitters! AVOID.

      So its time to get back to basics, its about genuine business, based on solid financial numbers that make profits by supporting clients with a solid backbone. You essentially need to provide a solution to a problem, its a great model to work with, then you can market aggressively, but you have to provide massive value and do the right thing, so check your value compass first. It has to be win-win for you and your client.

      How many IM gurus have a support system for their clients, in my experience ZERO. That’s not a business its a sales pitch!

      So my advice, get on Amazon and find a few solid business and marketing books to get started. Get a feel for if business is really for you. Not many make it out of the other side in business, 90% I believe will eventually fail. Business is tough. Again, forget the candy-floss dreams that the internet cannot fulfil.

      I’d say the top 3 reasons for failure in business are inexperience, underfunding from day one and not watching costs (what you spend). It costs money to set up a website, buy products, market, pay employees (including a support team), etc x 50.

      Salty’s tagline is “you can’t make money online”. I’d say, its bloody hard to make money online by providing a win-win business to clients, when competing against lying bastards like Internet Marketers and Affiliate Marketers. Basically its hard for potential customers to see through the fabricated noise and BS.

      But I’m seeing big change in attitudes towards the IM thief’s. I think we are very close to a tipping point where the hard yards Jason has invested is finally going to shift in the favour of the “ripped-off”. I sense an onslaught against scammers on the horizon whereby we’ll see a plethora of websites flooding the internet with “their story” of how they got slapped from a guru or product recommendation. I think this will flatten a lot of the “gurus”.

      And then real business can take centre stage once more and it will be totally unacceptable to promote crap.

      All the best

      1. @Juice, The one that works for people who don’t have actual business experience is the old Site-built-it model which is mostly an update of the old hobbyist newsletter model: write about a hobby topic you actually know about, create an interesting, informative and entertaining site that people want to read and recommend to their friends, and place clearly delineated advertising around the editorial content.

        Most of the Syndicate crowd hate that model because it’s too much like work – you kinda need to be a subject matter expert or at least reasonably informed and moderately entertaining to build up a repeat audience.

        Of course it also won’t make you rich instantly, but sites like built up around creating dieting recipes that don’t taste like last year’s dead lawn or based around Sean Plott’s starcraft obsession built up an audience and make a decent income from their sites. (I pay Sean $5 a month as a voluntary subscription fee because hell, he’s entertaining and I get a lot more than $5 worth of fun out of watching him – plus subscribers get nifty personalized badges in the livestream chat.)

        Or, you know, start drawing a webcomic and sell T-shirts: as an example.

  7. Here’s a unique solution to the scam problem. Treat the FTC itself as a scam. Eliminate the bureaucratic insulation between those “working” there and the sidewalk they could otherwise be living on – where they might even have to actually walk past the downtrodden human beings they only pretend to “protect and serve.”

  8. I just sent an email to and asked them if they would consider doing a story on this topic.

    They have a pretty far-reaching audience.

    Anyone have a suggestion to which of the mainstream media to which we could target? I don’t want to target Democracy Now – they are busy, they do really good work, and if they’re interested, they’ll follow up.

    Would anyone be interested in an email campaign to the media? Not SD, don’t want him to be accused of harassment, but as concerned citizen/consumers? There are so many astute, knowledgeable individuals on this site. Frankly, I wouldn’t know who/what to choose.

  9. One of the best ever posts here. This cannot be stressed enough:

    4. Develop resources to help educate local law enforcement :: journalists … and trial lawyers.

    It’s so sad to be constantly hearing the stories of the defrauded, their money is gone, the scammers have moved on, maybe to the next scam or possibly to their guest spot on Oprah, but it is too late.

    These steps offer real hope to stopping these bastards. I particularly like the idea of engendering paranoia among the scammers, it’s a technique that seems to have been effective against organized crime and that’s what this is. Although the other type of organized crime has better nicknames. Benny “The Slicer” Cardozo and Three-fingered Tony sound more ominous than Mike “Garden Gnome” Filsaime and Naomi “Human Sausage” Dunford. On the other hand, Naomi was pretty fucking terrifying in those ugly ass jodhpurs.

  10. scammers exist,no shit we get that,but i dont get the whole cartell thing.

    so it should be illegal to make friends with people that are in the Same industry?wow,Talk about freedom.

    you dont seem to believe in capitalism salty,witch is what freedom of choise is all about.

    1. @alex, He made SD “salty witch”!

      It’s sort of the Dan-Thies-Redux from

      “Aside from what they call their little “mastermind group” – is this really a surprise to *anyone* out there? I mean, it’s sort of obvious that there are several “cliques” of friends who promote each others’ stuff – not just this one particular group. Isn’t it? Obvious? Has no one been paying attention at all?”

      Which got a SD reply of:

      “It’s obvious to me :: and to Dan Thies :: but it’s not all that obvious to people inside the meat grinder. Especially people who are already overwhelmed by the complexity of the Interwebz. Many of these people :: let’s call them “Baby Boomers” because that’s totally who I’m talking about :: are still thousands and thousands of experience hours away from a reasonable baseline of Internet understanding. Complex patterns are invisible if you don’t understand the fundamentals.

      Is “Internet Marketing” fixed? Dan is gonna tell ya in three parts {looking forward to the other two} … but I’m gonna tell ya in one word …


      mr. Thies wrote a 3-part series of it which consists of 2 parts at:
      Full Contact Marketing

        1. @SD,

          I don’t know how Thies keeps his head from exploding:
          a) He seems to understand the problem, yet
          b) He has repeatedly been in bed with the Syndicate crowd. Meanwhile,
          c) He has said that the products in Stompernet were junk. His wording was something like “the courses the instructors brought to Stompernet were white label versions of their outdated materials.”
          Even now,
          d) In part III he says he hasn’t heavily relied on affiliates to promote him. But how did he launch the link-building course that he started after leaving Stompernet? By having Andy Jenkins et al promote him.

          It’s like a preacher who says the right things on Sunday, but Monday-Saturday he beats his wife.

          1. @Just Jake, I start by knowing my facts, and understanding the market.

            If you want to have a longer conversation with me, I would invite you to comment on my blog. That’s what it’s there for. I got no problem talking about any of this stuff.

            “a” – it’s not my business to be the watchdog or the cop on the beat. My customers know about the Salty Droid blog, more often than not because I recommend that they read it. It’s awesome, it’s funny, and he says stuff from time to time that I couldn’t say without getting sued.

            “b” – I have met some members of the Syndicate mastermind group. I have been hired by two of them – Brad Fallon (as a consultant) and Andy Jenkins (as Stompernet faculty). I have spoken at one Ed Dale’s live events, and thoroughly enjoyed meeting and working with the business owners I met there. They also seemed quite happy as well.

            Outside of that, I don’t know any of them particularly well, and most of them would not recognize me on the street.

            I know a hell of a lot more about the people I work with, the products I use, the products I have recommended, etc. than you do.

            “c” – As I’ve said here before, I have many regrets about Stompernet, but the work that I did for the clients there isn’t one of them. I have no idea where you pulled that quote from since it’s not from me.

            I went to Stompernet to teach and coach clients on specific topics. At the start, I brought existing material with me for some topics, since it was current material and there was no reason to revise it just to deliver it in a different venue.

            The products that were released publicly while I was there were always new and original work. Some people were brought in while I was there, specifically to teach material that they already had created.

            What’s happened since the change in ownership in 2009, when pretty much everyone who was there before left or were pushed out, seems very much like what you describe.

            My Adwords course from 2006 is still in there, in spite of the fact that I am now working on my 3rd PPC training course since that one went out of date.

            Not only is there a ton of outdated material being served up to members, but they sell out of date material outside of their monthly subscription program.

            In fact, my 2008 SEO course is still being sold at this moment – in spite of the fact that I have asked them to stop selling it, in spite of the fact that it is out of date, and in spite of the fact that I have never and will never receive my share of the profits from that course.

            There’s plenty more I’d like to say about what Stompernet turned into, but I think the Salty Droid’s doing just fine with it already.

            “d” – as I said, I have and will continue to use affiliates to promote what I sell, and as I said, what affiliates generate is a small part of the business.

            I don’t sell business opportunities, I work with business owners. I don’t promote business opportunities, but I sometimes promote tools, training, and services that I believe are relevant to the business owners I work with.

            Again, I invite you to continue the conversation at my blog, and to read the comments already there.

            1. @Dan Thies,

              “In fact, my 2008 SEO course is still being sold at this moment – in spite of the fact that I have asked them to stop selling it.”

              Does it mean they got rights to it?

            2. @Jack,

              No, it doesn’t mean that. They were trying to get all of us to sign over the rights to our work at one point, in exchange for some hypothetical ownership in the company, but I don’t know of anyone who actually signed those agreements. All part of the mess that led to the end of what was, and the beginning of what is.

            3. @Dan Thies, What was the outcome of Brad Fallon’s suit against his ex? The one where he claimed (see the PDF elsewhere here) that she was supposed to transfer some equity in her business to him at a later (cough) more convenient date? If he scored, maybe you could at least sue him for a truckload of tea candles.

              I also noticed that “Cuzzin’ Andy” seems to be trying to retool his girthy self for a fantasy stab at the “movie bidness.” The cheesy blonde makeover, the tagging along behind a one-hit wonder film outfit, etc. I guess my question is this: In your professional opinion, can you see Andy playing the lead in a remake of Free Willy?

    2. @alex, If all you got from that was “illegal to make friends,” you are either an imbecile or are priming for prison. Either way, it’s your mother’s loss.

    3. @alex, Oh for sure….they’re just friends. Capitalism loves friends….Capitalism also loves price fixing….and non-competition agreements. You know, they way Walmart and target agree never to sell the same things at the same time and absolutely promote one another’s business and then share all the money they make….totally.

      Damn it Droid! Didn’t they teach you that that’s just how capitalist markets work?

  11. I like the class action approach. Find a hard hitting litigator with the financial strength to crush these bastards. There should be sufficient damages to fund a mega contingency fee — especially if, per your idea, the intermediaries are also included. Google should represent sufficiently deep pockets to interest the right attorney. Plus, if Google got hit with a class action lawsuit over this, by a well funded and determined legal team, even a modest settlement victory should suffice to induce Google to shut these bastards down real quick.

    Rounding up the class action clients would be simple — use the same channels (Google Adwords, Youtube, etal) and the same keywords as the bastards to advertise the class action suit.

    I’m a non-practicing attorney, and I think I’ll put out some feelers next week to my old law school friends. I know a couple of them have specialized in class actions of the years.

    I seem to recall from elsewhere on your site that you’re an attorney. I’m a little rusty on the rules, but if you were to originate a handful of clients (through SD?) and draft an outline and summary of the suit, couldn’t that package be used to sell a hard hitting class action attorney on taking the case, with a referral percentage back to you?

    Not trying to tell you your business… just brainstorming. These fuckers have to go down. The cultural saturation of blatant lies must be brought under some modicum of control.

    Thanks for your work.

    1. @Eric,

      Although I focus on Internet business transactional law instead of litigation, I do stay connected with many of the Internet trial lawyers within the U.S. and abroad.

      To be blunt, there’s no money to be made going after most IM gurus who have broken the law.

      Getting a judgment against them is the easy part. Collecting anything is the hard part for two reasons.

      First, few have made real money without blowing it on assets worth very little at auction to satisfy a judgment. Those who have made the bucks and kept it are also smart enough to hide the bulk of it in places where it is more expensive to try to get the assets than it is worth.

      Second, a lot of the “gurus” who would be defendants in these cases have an antisocial personality disorder (psychopaths or sociopaths). There is no respect for the law prior to lawsuit and court orders are equally meaningless to them. These creeps simply give the middle finger to the plaintiff after a win in a court.

      Because the practice of law is a business, you will find Internet litigators favoring cases where the defendants have deep pockets and are willing to pay if they lose in court (think publicly traded companies). The IM field isn’t that arena.

      Think of some of the big “get rich” names who have fallen recently. If you sued James Ray or Don Lapre’s estate, how much do you think is there to pay out to satisfy any judgment in a civil suit? And most of the scammers still circulating aren’t as successful at it as Ray or Lapre.

      Many of the big IM guru cases involve criminal activity. The key to shutting them down is to prosecute for crimes and seize assets in the process. You’ll note the ones who truly lose in these deals are those the feds (not local law enforcement) go after and prosecute for crimes. That’s where the easy wins can take place rather than through private civil lawsuits or civil actions brought by consumer protection agencies.

      1. @Mike Young, Esq.,

        I think a class action suit would put each of these guys out of business

        I know as an attorney you don’t work for free but a simple lawsuit against any of these guys would make it damn near impossible to operate

        The FTC doesn’t win their suits as much as they overwhelm and bankrupt the defendant by filing each offense/charge for each individual person they sold to…basically making it impossible to defend…I’m sure I butchered that explanation but you understand

        By bringing the suit they will need to answer for every charge we bring …for each and every person they sold to

        call it whatever you want but the end result is nobody will ever buy from them again

  12. Reading this article made me think:

    I’m not overly optimistic regarding the prospect of the law banishing all biz-op swindlers and IM dream salesmen, nor do I think the critics will single-handedly turn the overall scene around.

    Given these presumptions, I think there might be an interesting comparison to be drawn between Goldman vs. OWS and MMO crowd vs. SD et al.: Both seem to be admitting an extensive lack of ethical behavior on the inside, yet they’re manufacturing another image to sell to their customers. In both cases this information has been around for years, but it looks like it took the voice of another insider to really spread the message.

    Will Goldman go down because of one dissenting voice? Obviously not, but I’m pretty sure any client will think twice before putting their money into the hands of people who see them as puppets.

    And in the case of the marketing world – consider the impact one MMO guru would have, would he write a blog post about leaving the scene and explaining what it really means to see your customers as a “herd”, to manufacture scarcity, to sell the dream of success. All of the typical arguments would cease to be useful: He’s not envious or hateful of anyone’s success, he obviously understands what he’s talking about and he’s not doing it for personal promotion (…if he actually leaves the scene).

    Now, let’s look for someone in the MMO area with a conscience and something else to do besides selling to IM newbies…hm…maybe…no…how about…nah.
    Well, maybe I’ll better bet on the law after all.

  13. I am somewhat shamed to confess that I also sat through the entire “Consumer Protection Summit.” I walked away from that thoroughly disgusted.

    Typical of the session… the Assistant AG from Maryland told the story of an elderly woman who was *completely* wiped out by a boiler room operation from Arizona. Life savings gone – even cashed out a savings bond that was supposed to be for her grand-daughter’s education.

    Just another life-destroying day in the life of the boiler room.

    What was the government doing to stop them? If you thought “send armed commandos to Arizona and kick some ass” you’d be wrong. No, they were taking the super-duper-strong step of “seeking a court order,” ordering that company to stop calling people in Maryland.

    Of course, that particular shell company was already “bankrupt” and no doubt reconstituted under a new name… and of course, we all know criminal scumbags will obey a court order from halfway ‘cross the country.

    These consumer protection attorneys actually think they’re doing they’re job, so much so that they’re willing to sit in front of a camera and talk about the terrible job they’re doing.

  14. @What the what,
    no thats how property rights work.if its your Business you have the right to ask whatever price you want.what do you mean i cant,the Business is Mine!

    what,do you think walmart or Apple or Microsoft or Farmers or health ensurers have an obligation to sell you anithyng?no.obviously if i want to sell you something i do it on my Terms,you dont have any obligation to buy my products.

    i dont want to protect the Gurus,i dont give a fuck,but answer the question,should it be illegal to be friends or Partners with people in your industry?

    1. @Alex,

      “answer the question,should it be illegal to be friends or Partners with people in your industry?”

      Illegal to be friends? Don’t be silly. That’s a straw man.

      Illegal to engage in price-fixing, collude to restrain competition, make agreements to divide a market, stuff like that? It’s already illegal.

    2. @Alex,

      How big was the bus you took to school?

      The ‘industry’ you are talking about isn’t an industry at all…it’s crime.
      These people perpetuate their crimes by banding together to perpetrate more fraud

      lying isn’t selling or marketing

      Read the Dan Thies post above to see the level of deception being perpetrated on the uneducated…and he’s holding back BIG TIME

      The ‘information/educational courses’ being passed of as information or education is neither informative or educational…NOR HELPFUL

      99.9% of what is sold is not accurate and the sales letter used to sell it is a complete fabrication

      …and the people selling it know it and profit from it anyway

      BTW you’re all wrong if you think the big dollars stolen by these criminals is at the boiler room level…that’s just the biggest ticket victim

      They’re stealing everyone blind $47 at a time…you just don’t feel it because it’s spread over so many VICTIMS

      They steal because they get away with it…they will continue to steal til they’re stopped

    3. @Alex,

      Your response has absolutely nothing to do with the comment I made above. And furthermore, it’s pretty asinine. For example:

      You state “no thats how property rights work.if its your Business you have the right to ask whatever price you want.what do you mean i cant,the Business is Mine!”

      I’m not sure how to respond to this for several reasons….I’d like you to go ahead and read back over my comment again. Go ahead, I’ll wait…….

      You didn’t read it did you? I didn’t think you would. But come on now, this is important. I can’t have a conversation with you if you don’t know what we’re even talking about it wouldn’t be fair (and all evidence up until this point clearly shows you don’t know what we’re talking about.) So you go right back there and read my initial comment….

      All, right. Now just to make sure we’re on the same page, you will recall that I referred to “price-fixing” [illegal], industry competitors drawing up non-competition agreements and scheduling the sale of their products so as not to compete with one another [also illegal], and then promoting each others products during the period they agreed to “go dark” for a nice fee. [also…illegal]. So, just for your information, No. No, that is not “just how property rights work”. Also, as a bit of extra advice, don’t ever say something like “that’s how property rights work”. Any one who actually knows even a little bit about “property rights” will know immediately that you don’t.

      Secondly, you ask: “what,do you think walmart or Apple or Microsoft or Farmers or health ensurers have an obligation to sell you anithyng?”

      That is just a ridiculous thing to say. See. You’ve made a critical error now. You’ve let me know definitively that you have absolutely no well reasoned arguments to back up you point(?) (I question my use of the word “point” because, based on what I’ve seen, I’m not convinced you have one; or if you do, I don’t think you really know what it is.)

      If you actually had something intelligent to say you wouldn’t have resorted to asking a nonsense, grossly exaggerated question that was entirely unrelated to my comment. Remember what I said about those illegal non-competition agreements….here’s a little bit of law on that courtesy of the Washington State Attorney General:

      “C. Market or Customer Allocations. A market or customer allocation is an agreement among businesses not to compete for customers. For example, an agreement to allocate or divide sale territories, assign certain customers to particular sellers, or reduce output would be per se illegal under the Sherman Act.

      In some instances, limited non-compete agreements may be permissible when the agreement is ancillary to a larger transaction. For example, limited non-compete agreements are commonly entered into as part of a sale of a business, where the non-compete may be necessary to protect the value of the business. Notwithstanding these limited permissible uses of non-compete agreements, the non-compete agreement but must still be reasonably limited in time and scope.”

      But as an aside, I am interested in these “health ensurers” you speak of. How well can they ensure my health? to 80%, 90%. That sounds like a great deal to me if it’s anything above 85%.

      As far as your last statement which I expect you intended as some sort of “finishing move”: “answer the question,should it be illegal to be friends or Partners with people in your industry?” I refer you to my paragraph beginning with” “Secondly”. That all applies to this ridiculous question as well.

      However, I think @Unicorn Amy said it best and I quote her here “Don’t be silly.” The only change I would have made, if @Unicorn Amy doesn’t mind is to add “HADOUKEN!”

  15. From the FTC rules comes the following:

    “•Don’t mislead people about what other buyers have earned, what they might earn, or how much help you’ll give them.”

    Now go read ShittyBiz or Kerns, Jenkins, Navarro, or Amway or Kangen water filters, any multilevel marketer for that matter and then ask yourself how stringently are these rules actually applied.

    There are undoubtedly more people following “The Rules” as set down by Fein And Schneider than are following the FTC rules. Here’s an “expert’s” opinion:

    “The Rules isn’t just a book, it’s a movement, honey!”— OPRAH

    Straight from the horse’s ass.

  16. “While is an extensive site :: its presentation is dry and completely lacking in humanity. It could never hope to counter the mind raping propaganda techniques used by the worst of the scammers.”

    Well, here is an idea: create a sales letter style website for every new product these asshole produce. However, except touting non-existent benefits of the products, use the same technique to expose whoever developed the product as a scammer.

    For instance, such and such offers “Blah Blah Money Funnel”. So, he creates a problem, agitates the problem and then offers a solution sprinkled with magic dust and a FREE Unicorn bonus in a form of “Blah Blah Money Funnel” supported by fake testimonials, etc.

    So, we take such and such’s sales letter and using exactly the same sales techniques explain to consumers that such and such and his product is not a solution to their problems, such and such is a scammer and support the evidence with testimonials from people scammed by a said individual, etc. Instead of “Add To Cart” use “Report to Authorities”

    CEO should be easy since all of the keywords are already there. If they decide to shut you up, maybe then Salty can represent you. I have a feeling he would be interested.

    Of course a more radical idea is to hack their servers, extract their mail list and send emails to the list explaining that they may be wrong about trusting that particular guru.

  17. Wow… Dan Thies is just a douchebag.

    When this whole Stompernet crap broke out on the WarriorForum, he was quick to defend Stompernet.

    Now, Thies is distancing himself.

    It never ends with these scammers.

    1. @Glorious People’s Link Liberation Scam,

      Dan Thies was either blinded by money or blinded by ignorance…but the facts remain…he was a major part of Stompernet and knows a great deal about what illegal activity took place there

      …and keeps quiet when he should be doing something about it

      Stompernet was and still is a CRIME SCENE..Dan was a participant and most certainly an EYE witness

      …so where’s Dan now? Selling a ‘how to’ course to business owners

      Dan you know you can put a stop to this and yet you stand silent…wouldn’t want to stop all that Link Liberation money rolling in

      1. @Shit Storm,

        You can believe whatever you want. Believing it won’t make it true though.

        What I witnessed at Stompernet was a bunch of people working very hard to help the members grow their businesses. That’s what I was hired to do.

        Whatever the hell else was going on, was going on in Atlanta between the owners, and I don’t know any more about it than the Salty Droid does.

        Because he knows everything I know.

        1. @,


          You can believe whatever you want but the facts remain the same

          Stompernet was a crime spree…and you were there and said nothing

          Every thief in the internet marketing game profited either directly or by having the Stomper list get whored out to sell their frauducts

          …and you didn’t have to be in Atlanta to see that

          Not to mention the absolute BULLSHIT sales tactics Stompernet used to ‘sell’ their concepts, courses and shitty software

          1. @Shit Storm, Mr. Wall made same/similar post/comments here about SNet.

            Main post starts with Dan Thies post Mr. Wall liked then goes into how Stomper-company suggested opposite for customers.

            & your other point was previously reiterated again from Mr. Wall when he made the comment:

            “I am not saying that I think the stuff they teach is in any way bad. The thing that I find distasteful is the recommendations for products they would not use themselves. At what level of success do they need to reach before they are comfortable passing up an opportunity to send people another email recommending garbage? If someone paid you $10,000 for an information product would you still keep pounding away at their inbox with offers?”

            1. @Jack, that particular promotion nearly tore the whole thing apart at the time, because it wasn’t just stupid, it was 180 degrees away from everything any of us were teaching.

              3rd party promotions were always a running battle.

              I would love to tell you a story about the horrific “Arbitrage Conspiracy” promotion, but I need to tread a little carefully.

              Assuming the Warrior Forum hasn’t deleted everything, you can put the story together yourself from what’s on there, and from the lawsuit documents that Mike Young and the Droid have published.

            1. @Lanna, Seems. aymen couldn’t afford keeping his hosting going and stole the membership site back from the people who bought it. I see comments on WF like these:
              From: MicSlive at

              “Can anyone tell me if this information is still available? I purchased the program and was able to login at one point in time. After not having time to complete the training, The website no longer exists”

              From chanesta at

              “I never saw version 2???

              The web site is now gone –

              When I opened this thread I was willing to concede that I got something for my $2k even though I thought the course was built on the fly and the marketing was way over hyped. Now I cannot even access what I paid for!

              Time to move on..”

        2. @,

          I believe that you might believe what you’re saying.

          But that isn’t sufficient to make me believe that what you’re saying is true.

          At best–at the very best–you must be somewhat lacking in info. ’cause you think that @SD only knows as much about Stompernet as you do.

          But I know that @SD knows stuff about stompernet that you don’t know and the reason I know that is cuz @SD told me. (I.e. @SD has posted numerous articles here on this site, and those articles go into a fair measure of detail about how stompernet worked–or more accurately, how it failed to work.)

          I mean, maybe you are legitimate. But that doesn’t seem very likely. You would have to be practicing massive amounts of self-deception to actually believe that you were “helping people grow their business” instead of–say scamming them out of their hard-earned money with empty promises.

          Did you keep any records on that? Do you have any numbers you can point to to show how successful you were?

          Furry cows moo and decompress.

          1. @Wyrd,

            “At best–at the very best–you must be somewhat lacking in info. ’cause you think that @SD only knows as much about Stompernet as you do.”

            That’s exactly the opposite of what I said. Of course he knows more about it than I do. He also knows everything that I know. A message less intended for you, than for others.

            Tell you what. I’m pretty easy to find, so if you have a business and a website, get in touch, we’ll spend 30 minutes on how to improve your business, and you can decide for yourself how much of a “scam” it is. We can record the whole thing and publish it, so everyone can enjoy it.

            1. @Dan Thies,

              Every IM conman guru’s sold stompernet using every lying, conniving, deceptive tactic in the book

              Stompernet itself used every lying, conniving, deceptive tactic in the book

              You stayed and pocketed your take

              Then the Stompernet house list was used to sell every single piece of shit biz op those same IM conman guru’s rolled out

              You stayed and pocketed your take

              dan – you can’t be so smart you create great educational info yet so ignorant to what was going on

              You were there as part of Stompernet…you looked the other way…you pocketed money

              I could care less how hard you worked…I’m sure Bernie Madoff had hard workers

              There was NEVER one single minute in Stompernets entire history where they were doing honest business

              Stompernet had scammers selling for them…many were paid ‘special’ payouts for their involvement

              Stompernet sold on behalf of scammers

              Stompernet used everything from blatant hype to outright lies the sell their offers

              Stompernet allowed affiliates to say and do whatever needed to be done to bring in sales

              Stompernets products, courses and software were some of this biggest lies being perpetuated in the make money online space

              tell me Dan…where were you innocent in all this

              You were part of the team over at STOMPERNET…you profited and SAID NOTHING

              1. @Shit Storm ::

                I appreciate your passion … maybe. I think it’s time you come and tell me who you are … and then I’ll decide. Because you don’t exactly make things easier for me. Take a read of the fucking context man … for god sake. I know StomperNet was a scam … obviously … so does everyone else here because we’ve been talking about it for years. I’ve had ample opportunity to call out Dan but I haven’t. Cause in case you’ve never noticed … I’m not really willing to move down from the top tier unless I’m adequately provoked by horror or epic comedy.

                First hand info from insiders using their own names :: recorded here for the permanent record … is super valuable. You just start calling him out without having a fully informed opinion … which makes commenting here look like a very unattractive option. So I should say something in his defense to try to make this a safe place for serious discussion … but then it sounds like I’m endorsing someone’s Interwebs bizness … which I won’t fucking do. It’s a no win situation for me … is putting me into a no win your plan?

                Most of Bernie Madoff’s employees were innocent :: and it wasn’t the thousands and thousands of insurance adjusters that criminally sank AIG … it was fuckheads at the top.

                How the hell do you know that Dan “SAID NOTHING”?? Maybe he said plenty but nobody would listen until a certain little me rolled into the room.

                And he’s never said nothing to me when I asked him tough questions whose truthful answers wouldn’t necessarily reflect well on his own actions … a mandatory requirement for people wanting to talk to me … something Dan’s been doing for a couple years as he alluded to above … and which all the badguys already know.

                You don’t win a war against jet black evil by attacking family members :: or people in the gray area … it’s terrible fucking soldiering.

  18. This site is popular because Jimmy is a little bitch who preys on the weaknesses of fake internet marketers. If they’re so fake, why dignify it? Fuck em right? It’s just their ego’s man, it’s ok. Wait, it’s yours too..

    1. @Jimmy’s small wiener, You called him Jimmy, his name is Jason you retard! But yeah, you do have a point he’s wasting his time ultimately. Makes for entertaining reading more than anything. Stay bored and lonely scam-bot!

      1. @LOL, his name isn’t important enough to remember, isn’t that the reason he built this blog?? hehe

    2. @Jimmy’s small wiener, Some particular recent topic got your goat? Yep, sure did. Now go back and crawl under your mommy’s dress where it’s “safe.” LOL

    3. @Jimmy’s small wiener ::

      This site is popular because Jimmy is a little bitch who preys on the weaknesses of fake internet marketers.

      Cool … sounds easy … maybe you should go make a popular site just like it {seems like you already got the little bitch part down pat} and monetize yourself to the fucking moon. Think of all the places you’ll go with all your new found internet lifestyles.

  19. Good words, @SD.

    According to another ftc video somewhere on , the FTC was originally created to oversee trust busting. I mean–we think of it as a general watch dog group to help prevent fraud. But it’s primary/original focus was more anti-trust.

    So… surely a cartel would be right up their alley. Maybe they just haven’t noticed all this french-for-trade-union-y activity going on? They still think it’s all lone scammers? FTC needs to wake up.

    I’m with you, @SD. FTC needs to go RICO all over those stoopid scammer fools.

    Furry cows moo and decompress.

    1. @Gv, FTW! Rob-’ems is right on that page, pushing his coaching. The tickets to Oprah’s “Lifeclass” tour are sold out. Anyone know how much she’s getting per ticket?

      Motive? 1. Megalomania
      2. SHE wants all the money!

  20. salty isnt giving you the full picture,you know why all goverments in the world are broke?because people think goverment should take care of them,like unreasonable consumer protection.

    since producers and consumers depend on each other both should be treated equal in Terms of protection.

    consumers can have free speech and Talk shit about businesses?(its not just elders that are at risk but jobs too if you lie)ok,no Problem,then businesses can say you will become a millionaire if you buy my product,thats free speech too.

    yeah lets attak anyone that attaks free speech,like i dont know,the salty droid?

    im Not tryng to defend anione,i personally think you are a piece of shit if you lie in your Marketing,but you are responsable for navigating the market,Not the goverment by overregulating free speech of businesses,thats what freedom is about,you are free to choose.

    but obviously Most sociopaths are Not able too look at something from both perspectives,because all they want is a Terrorist isnt able to comprehend you shouldnt do something to others that you dont want to have done to yourself,or people than want the rich to be taxed at a higher rate just because they know they will never be rich themselfs.

    or like people in Labor unions that dont give a fuck about peoples right to work.

    for all you people out there that just want Power because you are winy bitches complaining about beeing ripped of,buyng a 2000$ course that YOU chose to buy with a money back guarantee,FUCK YOU,even if you are old,FUCK YOU.the goverment has no Business in protecting you from yourself,from beeing stupid.

    if you stopped pretending the goverment should take care of you by overregulating people will be forced to learn how to Shop smarter.

    by overregulating scammers would work around Regulation and make it even harder for consumers to catch a scammer,and it would harm genuine people in the process.

    you could outlaw all get rich quick,and people selling them would reframe that as Marketing Information.obviously there is alot of value in learning about Marketing and the goverment needs to regulate again because the scammers work around regulations,hurting genuine people.

    just because there are weak people out there that are easy to take advantage off,it doesnt mean genuine people should suffer from that.

    just because you are homeless you dont have a right to rob me.

    you bought a 2000$ course and didnt like it?get over it bitch.and for people that lie to make a buck,fuck you too.

    you cannot find out the truth without looking at both sides,something that is very hard to do for sociopaths.

      1. @Clark, Ive never read anithyng from rand,seriously,you dont need to,it doesnt take rand or a genious to come up with something like free trade,you know, like”hey lets trade my tomato for your carrot,and let it be OUR business that we do that”.

          1. @Lanna, Its your opinion.Even if 99% are scammers you have no right to outlaw or make life harder for that genuine 1%.

            Alot of books are crap in my opinion,maybe not in yours,why not outlaw all books then right?
            No you are just a winy bitch because it was 2000$ instead of 10 bucks.

            Im not against consumer protection,im against people that want POWER for the sake of power.If you regulate,you have to regulate equally taking into account both sides,not just the one you are in because its convenient.

        1. @alex, I was thinking I might trade my carrot for your tomato, but if your tomato turned out to be a potato, then I’d be up the creek without my carrot if it was only our business. Unless I liked potatoes more than tomatoes I guess. The more I think about it, I think I will just keep my carrot.

        2. @alex ::

          Says you …

          “Ive never read anithyng from rand”

          But you could have said …

          “Ive never read anithyng”

          It’s still wrong … but now it’s more righter.

          1. @SD, Your humoristics is getting funnyoristically funnier all the timely time. Tippin’ the hat… :)

      1. @Lanna, Oh little Lanna,someone get you over to cuba or north corea,thats were we will end up if you let people like the salty droid regulate the economy.

        1. @alex,

          Das Droid sagt, “We need vision and innovation in enforcement … NOT rule making.” Wenige Regelungen. Mehr Durchführung.

          Warum bist du hier? Dieses ist über die US FTC. Dieses betrifft nicht Deutschland.

    1. @alex,

      Congratulations! This comment has made the shortlist for “incoherent inanity” in the “self-serving flimflam” and “Aufenses against speling” categories.

      Well done you!

    1. @I wantz 2B rich, Its what all people say that dont have arguments,but its your fault if you dismiss an argument because of spell checks,im german,i dont have any interest in improving on the english language.

      1. @alex,

        Proper spacing, punctuation and grammar still apply regardless of German or English.

        Nice try.

        If you are German, then explain you used the first person plural here:

        Oh little Lanna,someone get you over to cuba or north corea,thats were we will end up if you let people like the salty droid regulate the economy.

        What’s with the “we” if you are German?

        Could it be that you are Alex Herrera, the same ClickBack affiliate-course peddler who used to be hiding under the guise of “helping you avoid the scammers?”

        If so, I notice your site is in “maintenance mode.” Having a change of heart about the crap you are peddling?

        1. @zipnar, For being a grammanarchist myself, I can agree with all said against alex-ideas except grammar-wise.

          Lanna video says the most.
          & commercial speech != free speech

            1. @Jack, you are so paranoid,why do you Post this shit,do you think i will prove to anyone im german?

            2. @Jack, SD site has claimed me to be Alex I guess now according to my new username it keeps giving me, so that one is proof enough to me that I’m German as long as Alex can be, too.

        2. @zipnar,

          “What’s with the “we” if you are German?”

          I think that it’s that he meant by it that “In God’s Eyes We Are All German” or maybe that everybody posting on the SD site is German? I am decidely German myself since his post, though.

      2. @alex,

        The implied message is that you’re so adamant in your position that you appear to me to be pushing one of the products that the overwhelming majority of people on this blog just as adamantly oppose.

        Too many people who have fallen prey to these con artists. I honestly don’t give a shit about spelling or grammar.

  21. “We all need the fucking government.”

    Speak for yourself… I don’t fucking need it. What I need is for people to cooperate in fulfilling their values, not authorities that exploit people for the elite’s interests. Fuck statists.

    1. @Francois Tremblay ::

      I do speak for myself … and I’m glad you don’t need the government.

      You must be able to turn into a werewolf or something … which would be a huge advantage in a hobbesian chaos type situation.

  22. @Little Lanna Tixel, yeah carl Marx had a Vision too you know,Bad for humanity that it involved misery and ignorance.

    im here for various reasons,one is for curiosity,i like to know what tipe of people Post here,and i was right,mainly winy bitches and anti-free trade power hungry socialists.

    second i am a capitalist Not only german,i follow politics in other countryes,because if my country wants to fuck me over,i might aswell go somewere if i get taxed too mich i will be happy to provide Jobs in other countryes.

    third i have a Passion for Marketing,alot of the Guru courses really helped me out,that how i got involved(buyng a course) with the syndicate in 2006.yes alot of the Gurus dont have the best intentions in mind,but that one percent does,and no i dont sell courses and im Not a Guru.

    1. @alex,

      “like if i get taxed too mich i will be happy to provide Jobs in other countryes.”

      It’s scary because probably no company in the United States is doing that one yet. Can anybody think of companies doing it?

    2. @Alex ::

      It’s funny how you think stupid people sound the same in every county … they don’t.

      It would be fun to get some stupid Germans in here though.

    3. @,

      im here for various reasons,one is for curiosity,i like to know what tipe of people Post here,and i was right,mainly people concerned about scammers taking advantage of misinformed consumers and folks with even the smallest understanding of economics.


      Also, you might want to read Marx before bashing him. Sure, his theory of labor doesn’t make a lot of sense, but he foresaw the significance of the limited liability company and financial (non-labor) capital, both very strong forces in our modern economy. You don’t have to be a communist to appreciate his work, just as I can appreciate Smith without being a free-market capitalist. (He actually wasn’t either, but that’s secret knowledge only available to my $10,000 mastermind)

      So…given that we’re both German and you’re apparently unwilling to work on either your understanding of foreign languages or economics, I’d wager a guess that you might want to think the whole “creating Jobs” thing over – it was hard enough for me to find a niche in the US market.

  23. @Kleine Lanna Tixel,
    mostly just Jay Abraham stuff,and still do,but i do actually have a Business,but its Not entirely online.

    from”the syndicate”product launch formula from Jeff walker,useful if you do a launch,Not to get rich quick.

    and 2 from eben Pagan,time Management and modern Marketing or something.

    and a copiwriting course from John carlton.THIS 4 are geniuine and know what they are talking about.

    rich schefren also knows what He talkes about judging bis career,but never bought a product from him.

    i judge in Terms of intension for the customer and actual “i know what im talking about”Information.

    for example people that sell real estate courses on TV have Bad intentions or are ignorant,because if you are geniuine you should say real estate isnt for everione,but you probably cant make it profitable on tv if you say the truth.

    still,i would buy from someone that doesnt have the best intentions,if the product is useful.

    what the salty says,that no one can teach you how to be succesful is bullshit.

    Jay Abraham wouldnt get paid by companies that much to grow their businesses if He didnt know what He is talking about,obviously you can learn something from him.

    the salty droid is actually hurting people by telling them noone can teach you.

    He would do a better Job by judging people in Terms of intentions for the customer and “that Guru knows what He is talking about”.

    anithyng other than that is just Entertainment and more misleading than useful.

    1. @,

      the salty droid is actually hurting people by telling them noone can teach you.

      … and yet here you are proving my point.

  24. @alexonymous,

    “mostly just Jay Abraham stuff,and still do,but i do actually have a Business,but its Not entirely online.”

    I have the idea that maybe you can try gzip compression and get monitoring with to see if you can get the rest of your pages up for people to see them.

        1. @Jack, is this site full of paranoid people or what,i still dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

            1. @Jack ::

              I guess she’s the sort of German who doesn’t understand that one of Germany’s biggest political parties is basically socialist … and that in Europe as a whole the term “socialism” isn’t considered an automatic derogatory like here in the good ol’ U.S. of A.

  25. @SD, what non anarchist anti Statist people want is to eventually replace goverment with a protectorate.

    goverment owns all the property including people,in a small gov protectorate people Own all the property.

    i know it must be hard”what?the goverment is Not there to prevent me from investing all my life savings in Internet Marketing products i dont need?”

  26. @SD, and actually there is alot of scientific proof about success involving things like self esteem and emotional intelligence,both things that can be changed with the help of “Gurus”more efficiantly than figuring it out on your own.

    i said scientif proof to prove my point,Not sarcasm.

    you should represent both sides fairly and do. some research bevore talking shit.

    lawyers are alway called no people,i wonder if all lawyers are paranoid.

    no no one can teach you to be successful,no you cant take a shit without the goverments approval.

    1. @alex,

      Substantiate your claims and show us what scientific evidence there is showing a link between receiving self-esteem/EQ training from a “guru” and achieving higher success than before. Let me guess: None.

      That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be one – I’ve been to seminars before, but all of those have been led by people who actually achieved success “for realz”, not sold seminars on how to get rich online, on the stock market, or through marketing.

      Still, I’m in a position where I could lose some money without feeling bad about it – compare that to somebody in debt who gets pressured into buying Filsaime’s $10,000 coaching package, delivered by some underpaid kid with no track record, and tell me we’re talking about the same thing.

  27. @SD, yeah that stupid people thing gets me too,i said fucking a 100 Times i dont want to defend scammers,but paranoid people here still think i take sides with the Gurus,i dont,i just look at it from a different perspective,from a what is the goverments job in regulating perspectove,witch adds value you may think.

    i give up on that,its like tryng to explain to Labor unions that people have the right to work,they dont get that.they only See evil Business payng too low.

    its the Law of attraction at work salty,you know,you mostly attract people that are like you to your blog.

    1. @alex,

      Finally your philosophy makes sense to me. You know, in a regulated capitalist economy, we make sure that nobody uses his power to take advantage of others, but in the free market, a “witch adds value”. I think we finally have all pieces of the libertarian trinity: Witches, unicorns, and the invisible hand.

      All work together to maintain the law of attraction (fucking magnets, how DO they work?)

  28. @Clark, thats funny,i am probably in the Top 1%of the Population in Terms of knowlege on economics.

    and you know what,all economic Systems could work,even just hold a gun to someones head and say “work”.

    the Problem is the outcome you want from your financial System.if you want all people to enjoy freedom,peace,and prosperity you have to have property rights of the individual,Not the goverment.

    the only way to live in peace without wars in this world is if all 7 Billion people on the Planet have the right to theyr lives and to own property,since there is scarcity in resources.

    i cant take anione seriously that wants to discuss economics that doesnt come to the Same conclusion(if you want the Same outcome for society as i want)

    1. @alex,

      I strongly doubt that. Any introductory course on economics should include public goods and external effects, and that’s where free-market economics breaks down. Some things are non-exclusive (e.g. roads, national security) and require some form of mechanism to make sure they get funded. The common solution is to agree as one society to pay a certain amount so that these services get maintained. Wiki “free rider problem” or “Trittbrettfahrerproblem” for more info. Some goods on the other side come with negative effects for parties that are not involved in the buying process, pollution being the dominant one, so these have to be monitored and regulated.

      Government exists in order to provice public goods – and in most industrial societies this includes health and education – and regulate companies so that negative externalities are minimized.

      There are other possible applications of government involvement, but these two are the ones even pro-market economists will agree on, and it’s why libertarian politics rarely attract more than fringe support.

      1. @Clark ::

        But I think in your last sentence you should say Libertarian politics … because lowercase “libertarian” includes a massive amount of non-fringe people who are rationalists and respecters of maths.

        I don’t ever recall seeing a graph proving the pareto optimality of unicornian free market anarchy.

    2. @alex, I’m going to say with great confidence that top 1% of people in population re: economic theory, wouldn’t ever, wouldn’t ever never, wouldn’t never ever buy syndicate frauducts and if you were roundtabling with them and told them you about the great-syndi-frauducts you love, the reaction might go abit such as this one:

  29. @Clark, Hey i am totally on your side for the Most Part.

    yes you are a piece of shit if you take adwantage of weak people and you should burn in hell for it.

    still,its Not the goverments Business to regulate Marketing.if you buy from some kid operating out of his basement,its your responsability,Not the goverment.

    TV ads are about persuasion and Image pressure many people died because TV ads Made it look cool to smoke?should we abolish that?

    how many people went broke playng in casinos,abolish that?

    from that mindset you will slowly turn into a fascist System.

    all Marketing is persuasion and pressure,if its good or Bad depends on how you use it.

    since burocrates dont undestand Marketing,like socialists dont understand scarcity,you cant let them overregulate Marketing,a very important pillar of society,because nothing in the world happens until something gets Sold.

    thats how it works,if you buy shit you dont need,you are responsable,Not the goverment.obviously even capitalists agree that some Basic contract Regulation is needed,im oversimlifing here.

    1. @alex ::

      I’m sure you’re in the Top 1% for Internets knowledge too … right?

      So in that case I guess you understand how I know that you’re using a proxy server.

      Glen Beck freak talk … extreme narcism … inability to understand unsubtle sarcasm … obsession with an argument you can’t possibly win … a child like inattention to detail … fear of me …


      Crystal Cox?

  30. @Clark, First you have to clarify what you mean by good about life even if right now you havnt reached your goals?
    or beeing the Person that chooses the right career for him instead of getting rich dooing something you hate?
    what success.

    if you Talk about the latter there is proof that there is a Link.there is even scientific proof about how to build self esteem step by step,just read a book by nathalian branden a psychologist.

    its proven that there is a Link between giving up to soon,Depression,child abusers,beeing Taken advantage of financially,shyness,and a Ton of other human issues,all beeing related to standing in the way of general success.

    just because it isnt tought in schools right now doesnt mean it will Not in the future.the current research is ahead of its time.

    in fact even the best financial //business advice will do nothing if you dont get your self esteem right,you might get lucky.

        1. @alex,

          Es ist ungerade, dass du in Wirtschaft und Libertarianism auskennst, aber, wann du lest, bist du an der Psychologie als Rand interessierter.

          Was ist deine Meinung des FDP?

  31. @Clark, its my fault you didnt get it,i was oversimplifing of course,isnt it obvious you cant explain a complete economic System in a few sentences?

    even libertarians agree the free market sucks at providing for the common,like air pollution and stuff.

    people dont underatand libertarians because they watch Jersey shore instead of actually learning about free trade

    1. @alex,

      It’s not that easy. There are more variables to an economy than just the two principles I summarized before, but also imbalances of power, such as >1000 people competing for 300 jobs provided by one company. The workers are in a much worse bargaining position, as everybody can stab the other guy in the back by underbidding, yet the company has no such weakness. Labor unions were build to fight this imbalance and create an even playing field – one party selling labor, one party buying.

      Then there are imbalances of buying power: With unregulated health care, there’s simply no incentive to provide health care services to poor people, especially families. The same applies to schools – the rich people will send their kids to the fine private schools, while the poor are left with an underfunded public school system or the Randian equivalent “McSchool”, which will teach them the minimum required amount to get a badly paying job. This is sometimes called a “plutonomy” – an economy where buying power is concentrated in the hands of a tiny minority, so that is makes more sense to produce for those ultra-wealthy than to provide a decent product for all. Dan Kennedy’s “Marketing to the affluent” goes down a similar path.

      That is not a society I want to live in. I’d like for everyone to lead a decent life, even if it means 1-2 vacation homes less for me and a couple private helicopters less for the ultra-wealthy. And if you think that poor people are just lazy and controlled capitalism would accelerate that trend: Try working minimum wage for a while and tell me how comfortable and easy it is.

  32. @SD,

    its more like you loose

    extemly paranoid,who is cristal cox?im using my phone to write this,i dont even underatand how Proxy Servers work and i dont care.
    go figure These Internets geeks.

    fear of you?how did you come up with that.i enjoy Posting Not here to attack anione.

    and you may Not have a Graph showing free markets work,there is actually a library at,but i do have proof that the US debt to gdp ratio will be around 150% or so in 2014,like greece now,and that it will trigger hyperinflation if you dont go back to free trade and deregulation.

    but i dont expect statists to know that

  33. @Clark, god i so hope you have alot of savings in the Bank.

    wen the US debt to gdp ratio will Hit 150% in 2014 or so,and it will because your goverment doesnt Show interest in cutting spending,And is slowly killing the economy by thousands of regulations per month,hyperinflation will wipe you out.

    you will regret watching Jersey shore,or whatever statists do, instead of actually learning about some Basic free market stuff.

    i keep my unicorns,and you tell me how it feels to be ripped of by your own goverment,never mind the fucking IM cartell

    1. @alex,

      “But officer, the other folks stole much more money than me!”

      Not an optimal defense. Yes, debt will become a problem at some stage, but that’s just one of the flaws of our economic system and I’m confident we’ll find some sort of solution, even if it’s rebuilding capitalism 5.0 after the next crash or coming up with something completely new.

      Whatever it is, I don’t see why we should let liars sell crap to the desperate. If you care for marketing material, you should look forward to smart (!) regulation, as it would remove untrustworthy vendors from the market, reducing the chance of future crooks gaining popularity and honest people switching to the dark side.

  34. @Jack, i dont love the cartell,i dont know why you are accusing me.

    i bought a course about writing sales Letters from John carlton and Jay Abraham,both work allso for Fortune 500 companyes,sure,they cant give you financial advice.

    i bought product launch formula,witch uses the Same mindset that i dont know,companyes like Apple use to launch a New product.sure,it doesnt work you genious financial Insider.i dont like the guy though,Jeff walker.

    1. @alex, Ah yes…it’s the time I remember so well when Apple deleted all the comments in their forum making some complaints during the launches and otherwise and then made the fake-social-proof contests for their forums-and-blogs to make the win onto the business-excitement.

      I might concede them to use fake-scarcity though.

      1. @Jack, more Power to you

        how many Times do i need to repeat myself,you can youse Marketing for good,or you can just fucking…..drumbeats….LIE,no shit go figure.

        something of substance please.

        1. @alex ::

          Start speaking in passable German … or shut the fuck up liar.

          I’ve had enough of your super lame :: barley literate :: trolling on this particular post. The only person who cares about your opinion is you.

          1. @SD, right,thats why i get so many replyes.

            we can have a conversation in german if you want,no Problem,oh god the paranoid thing again,you are so funny.

            1. @alex ::

              Awesome :: well from now on you’re only allowed to comment in German then … everything else will be deleted.

              Unfortunately I can’t read German … my loss I guess.

    2. @alex, According to illustrious clients include:

      Robert Fake-News-Site-Promo Allen who even the corrupt BBB gives a D+ & puts out warnings about
      Tony Robbins (see a site called SaltyDroid)
      Mary Kay
      Marc Victor Hansen…ChiefMaster Boiler
      T. Gimme-all-your-money-now Harv Eker

      1. @Jack,

        No Fortune 500 companies on that list. I couldn’t find anything for John Carleton either. He claims back in the day LA ad agencies would sneak him in to do their copywriting, but never names these top agencies strangely. He has one work sample on his site and it is ATROCIOUS! And I say this as a professional business writer (who actually has worked for Fortune 100 companies like Disney and Mattel). It is one of those awful ads you find in the back of magazines for a golf thing…Carleton claims everyone ripped off this ad even though it is clearly derivative of the old Charles Atlas weakling ads in the back of kids’ comics (minus the cool comic). All hype, no substance.

          1. @Jack, if I could give you 2 thumbs up, I would. This video and the CFTC link are priceless.

        1. @alex,

          I don’t have time to double-check my German today, but luckily I am still allowed to post in English.

          Walmart is at the top of the Fortune 100 list, so if you visit you will be reading the writing of a Fortune 100 writer.

          I’m still waiting to hear how Carlton compares to Caples, et al.

          Many of the people who read this are not personally involved with the IM cartel. We have friends or family members who are, as you put it, biz-opp junkies. Interventions are mostly unsuccessful, and I don’t think biz-opp addiction is not yet recognized by mental health care providers.

  35. @Jack, if you are right more Power to you.i dont have time to do a backgroung Check on everyone.i dont know tony robbins,ive never bought something from him.

    what i can tell you is that jay knows what He Talks about judging his product.

    if you want to Hit on this issue,lets Talk about statists having no Problem importing natural resources from lets say China to build Computers and supporting theyr high Standards of living in the developed world.

    you know China,the country that doesnt give a fuck about human rights.

    thats one reason libertarians arent statists and want individuals to trade with each other and Not know to avoid things like war,duh.

    we in the developed world do all Business with criminals.

    give me something of substance.

  36. @alex,

    No it’s not. Listen to guys like Chomsky if you don’t like my slant, he’s been a huge supporter of (actual) libertarianism and anarchism and makes roughly the same points against free-market rhetoric that I just made.

    Opposing corporate and economic power doesn’t make you a supporter of authoritarian regimes. Looking at the political compass, you’d likely score as right-libertarian while I’d end up with a medium left-libertarian result.

  37. @alex,

    If your garden is huge enough to be the only feasible source of employment in your area, then yes. If your tomatoes are advertised as fresh, but are actually rotten, then also yes.
    How about you drop the made-up idealistic examples and read up on actual history, you know, Rockefeller, the robber barons or Dollar Diplomacy? Or the fine, voluntary work of scavengers back in the good ole’ days of capitalist freedom. Breathe the free air of liberty, if you’re not being suffocated by cotton.

    1. @Jack, Then we get the in addition to MECLABS Sr. researcher Nathan Thompson selecting submitted-subject-lines for subject lines, they also have claimed Brian Clark & Sonia Simone will be good ones to select lines for the test.

      At least testing will be real.

        1. @Lanna, And testing procedures they do/use & teach make Guru “testing claims” nonsense-confirmation which makes it much the weirder that they are using those two.

  38. @alex,

    How ‘boot you go with some books, eh?

    Oh wait, I’m German, not Canadian. All right: Sen how about you go reed some of sem books on Internet Marketing? Sere is lots off information scheaply avaiable ät amazon, weser you’re looking for tips on copywriting, seo, sem, media buys or building ä proper sales funnel.

    Iff sat’s not enough, try se premium courses on Mixergy (witch are free iff you fork over 25 bucks ä month for se membership). Sere’s really not much reeson to pay $300-$2000 for some hyped-up course on selling stuff, when you can get everysing 10-100 times scheaper via se proper channels.

    Horrible accent aside: I was pretty intrigued when I first stumbled upon the Internet Marketing crowd, especially Kern and friends. He seemed pretty open about not being a genius, which kinda differentiated the guy. It only dawned on me later that a) the typical buyer of the course never made any real money and that the “syndicate” was actively trying to get these guys to spend even more on useless courses and b) the minority that did, rarely ended up selling a useful product at a price appropriate for the quality provided.

    Sure, I’m not a huge fan of the new wave of tech startups selling very basic services for steep monthly subscriptions either, but at least they’re not promising instant riches or pulling manipulative BS tricks.

    1. @Clark ::

      No need to respond to CrystalCoxAlex unless she’s speaking German.

      German or delete :: it’s a fun rule … maybe I’ll start applying it all willy nilly.

  39. Once U.S. is done with scammers, they can flee to Asia where they can keep working with Richard Tan who seems to have been helping them allow many people all across Asia give their hard-earned money to as many scammers as possible:

    1. @Jack, even better for Mr. Tan, he can copy the products, sell them direct, and keep all the profits for himself. No front end, 100% of back end. Kinda like those fake Gucci purses, y’know?

  40. Sorry droid, but going after companies that provide list services? WTF??

    Why not just shut down the internet instead, no internet, no fraud. I am sure you’d like that solution.

    1. @Bo, What?? “Sorry droid?” No, YOU are sorry.

      Where did SD say anything about generally “going after companies that provide list services?” He said intermediaries, and he gave a very specific example: Infusionsoft.

      Guess what? Infusionsoft KNOWS what’s what. They’ve made a conscious choice to align themselves with that particular segment, and in doing so, they have deep knowledge of it.

      Just like a totally different company called “” (a *list service*) that also knows “what’s what” and instead, does NOT want any part of that “what.” They, for example, prohibit third party list mailings, don’t allow affiliate solicitations, and won’t permit anything remotely connected to MMO b.s. They are also serious about it to the extent that they will immediately cancel even the largest account that crosses that line.

      On the other hand, “BO,” you’ve commented here in defense of getaway cars. Gosh, you’re a real winner.

    2. @Bo,

      Agreeing with Carl.

      Infusionsoft has a photo of and testimonial from Pam Slim (who lends her legitimacy to The Syndicate) in their home page‘s slideshow, and Joe Polish is right at the top of their Testimonials page.

      AWeber is also guilty. We know Harlan Kilstein uses AWeber and has for a couple years. AWeber has Copyblogger on their home page and Yanik Silver on their Testimonials page.

      Visit MailChimp, Constant Contact and Salesforce, and you won’t recognize any of the customers they choose to display from this blog.

    1. @EricG,

      That was fun to read. I think those guys are goin’ down.

      Normally I prefer for companies to seek technical solutions to problems rather than legal ones. But this is different. First because Twitter’s already trying like mad to technically stop the spammers and second because… it’s spam. “I don’t like spam!”

      Furry cows moo and decompress.

  41. You know in the headline ‘Plans 4 Winning & Stuff etc. Provisional Draft Ex Parte’ can you go into this post in HTML view and put id=”something” ‘cos that means I can link just to that section, which to me is the really cool bit, so that visitors from that link get taken straight there. The bit before it’s fine, but for anyone who’s not been here before it might be a shock.

  42. Salty Dog writes: “Speaking of truth :: “if it sounds too good to be true … it probably is.” That cliche must be true :: or it wouldn’t have been repeated five times in three hours by the supposed experts on fraud stopping. “If it sounds too good to be true … then it’s manipulation and we’re sorry that our failures allowed it to happen.” I guess that’s too long :: and too true :: to become an incessantly chanted bureaucratic mantra.”

    1. The reason why regulators keep trotting this canard out is because they ignorant of the root cause of fraud, identified by the Yellow Kid over a hundred years ago: “Wanting something for nothing”. The Kid always had a proposition for the sucker or mark, in which the mark looked they were getting something for nothing. Weil, of course, was the one who ended up getting something and the mark got nothing.

    2. The role of the regulator in Cooling out the Mark was well understood by the prominent sociologist Goffman,–Cooling.htm

    Nothing much has changed.

  43. Thought I would stop by from my morning read of emails to ask everyone if they attended Dr.Jizz’s semen ar.

    A fake azz Dr. having a make money seminar? hmmmm. Most Dr.’s will tell u to take a vacation and relax lmao. Well at least my Dr does- but damn this Dr. Jizz is making his rounds. you should see all the good facebook thumbs up he gets and youtube likes.

    This sets the stage for people who like to scam to find an audience and will ride off his name alone to sell some fatgirl pills and bootcamps lmao.

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