66 thoughts on “Dateline :: James Arthur Ray”

  1. I thought they did a decent job of showing Death Ray as nothing more than a conman. I wasn’t expecting Dateline/ NBC to take any blame for anything, that’s just not their bag. I feel bad for that one lady that still thinks that Death Ray isn’t a bad guy, that it’s his lawyers that made him do things that he otherwise would not have done.

    1. @Rafael Marquez, Did you notice how she “apologizes” for rubbing Liz Neuman’s arm and talking to her in a loving way,even though the two of them were apparently good friends?

      @Droid, sociopathic scammers/cult leaders sure do expend a lot of time and energy trying to destroy people’s sense of humanity.There’s nothing natural about focusing primarily on Self because altruism is hard-wired into our primate brains. But since,for most people, self-centeredness does not bode well,these d-bags inevitably resort to the constant selling that you’ve described. I agree that Dateline should have focused on other aspects of this debacle. Like Death Ray’s insane cult leader tactics;the Obey-RayGod Death Game,or the fact that the desert isolation activity had been unexpectedly scheduled before the sweat. An expert could have been interviewed to describe how Ray conditioned participants against their instinct to be outraged by the vomiting,fainting,screaming and suffering they would later witness or experience in the faux “sweat lodge”.

      It would also have been interesting if Dateline had mentioned how the night before the sweat, Master Jim emerged from his room,angry and shouting at Liz and some other ladies for “disturbing” him with their conversation and,OMG,the unmentionable sin, LAUGHTER.

    2. @Rafael Marquez ::

      “But Marta Reis, who worked for Ray part-time and has admired him for years, says she’s sure there’s a good reason why he left town without visiting the hospital.

      MARTA REIS: I honestly believe in my heart that, you know, maybe lawyers, people like that were probably encouraging him not to. I know that he probably wanted to.”

      She honestly believes it in her heart … so you know … what more is there? I guess thinking it through is out of the question now that Marta is living the life that she desired and deserved.


      Yeah why no expert? It’s ridiculous.

      CHRIS HANSEN: Did it make you more successful?

      DENNIS MEHRAVAR: Financially it did help, yes. You start believing in yourself more.

      Okay really? Because being a part of a coercive group has been shown to degrade your higher thinking functions. And these retreat seminars are time away from the job … and you can also build confidence via substitute goods like walking your dog … or coaching your kids baseball team. Do these seminars make people more successful? Why not ask someone who didn’t just go through it who can tell you that the clear answer is OBVIOUSLY NOT.

      Why did people stay in the lodge? There is an answer to that question. Coercive :: manipulative :: brainwashing tactics being used to extract money. The tactics used by intelligence agencies {especially the Chinese} to manipulate POW’s work equally well against sweet American ladies caught unsuspecting {surprise surprise!}. You can’t just pose that question to the victims and family members and then walk off like you’ve seen it answered.

  2. JAR takes sliminess to a new level! When I thought I couldn’t be any more disgusted, the new info about upselling and his book ploy makes me want to hurl.

    His depravity continues to grow as more and more facts come to light. It’s amazing to me that anyone still choses to follow DeathRay in any way.

    1. @MazeMan ::

      … and how about this?

      CHRIS HANSEN: Did James Ray ever call you?

      VIRGINIA BROWN: He called me the Tuesday after. Five days later.

      CHRIS HANSEN: And what did he say?

      VIRGINIA BROWN: He didn’t apologize. He said, “I am so upset. And I have to find out what happened.”

      CHRIS HANSEN: He had to find out what happened?


      CHRIS HANSEN: He was in the sweat lodge.

      VIRGINIA BROWN: That’s right. He said, “This is the most awful thing that has ever happened to me in my life.”

      OMG! That pretty much says it all.

      1. @SD, “This is the most awful thing that has ever happened to me in my life.” The predictable pity ploy and poor-me syndrome of the sociopath. What is unbelievable is how these monsters first garner pity,then soon thereafter, shift gears and go into extra-manipulative mode, almost as if their evil deeds give them a charge. Frequently,they begin to attack anyone who has confronted them or tried to stop them.

        I hope someday we’ll hear stories from Yavapai County employees concerning Ray’s demeanor and comments during his arrest and incarceration. Curious to find out if he tried to verbally manipulate any of the sheriff’s deputies or jailers by asking them to sign them up for his seminars or buy DVDs. I’ve also wondered if he visibly jonesed for his steroids and other drugs,had a herpes flair up, or asked for his metro male makeup bag.

    2. @MazeMan, These guys ALL find someone or something else to blame and they ALL end up selling their shit in a package or fire sale for nothing because it IS worthless anyway and they know it. They usually hone in on the very person who has challenged them the most because at some point, somewhere in their future, they realise that they were the deadbeat that everyone said they were in the first place. Using people and abusing them is a fools game and publicly blaming is the product of that game. Nobody says they are owed something by these idiots if they are not yet they expect the public to buy into the crap they keep putting out. In the end they are the sad losers and have to live with the shit they have put out there meanwhile their victims get on with life and live the best they can under the circumstances. These guys believe they are GODS and can do and say whatever they damn well like and then wonder why normal people think they are totally deluded.

  3. Well, I look at it this way.

    The piece was not as good as it could have been, but it’s a lot better than nothing. NBC could have chosen to stay away from the entire subject due to embarrassment over having previously promoted this guy.

    Not everybody follows this story like the regulars here. Dateline surely reached some viewers who were not aware of James Ray at all.

    Definitely better than nothing, and more publicity makes it even harder for Ray to promote himself.

    1. @Hippo ::

      Nah. I don’t want to look at it that way. “Better than nothing” is too low a bar for a broadcast media company. They are using up OUR air space … at OUR leisure. They have a public duty … and they’ve been blowing if for years.

      It was good for the cause that they aired the story … that’s for sure. But they don’t get any points for it.

      Epic Fail! I expect another story … a better story. And I want to be told the hows and whys of all his appearances on the Today show. Otherwise NBC can suck it!

      Except :: of course :: for my continued devotion to Liz Lemon.

      1. Dear Mr. Salty:

        Bless your idealistic Droid heart.

        I am so old that I am not as concerned about how high to set the bar; I am just grateful that there is any bar at all.

  4. hey salty ~ nice piece. did you see greg hartle is back on facebook? also it seems that jennifer horton has some connection with james ray’s new “virtual success coaching” program… cheers

    1. @terry hall ::

      virtual success coaching? do tell.

      my impression was that horton never stopped having a connection … and also … that she is tall.

      1. @SD, Looks like Jennifer has gone to the dark side of the force…

        Email from JamesRay@JamesRay.com received today:

        Hi ,

        The special 40%-off sale to get James as your virtual coach in his entire Success Certain Coaching training system ends at midnight tomorrow.

        Here’s the full scoop:

        This rare 40%-off special is our way of saying ‘THANK YOU’
        to all the people who are a part of our community :-)
        Here’s the special website where you save 40%:
        Try the Success Certain Coaching System For 40% Off And Get TWO Free
        If the 40% discount isn’t enough to encourage you to
        Check out the special ‘40%-off’ web site, these TWO
        free gifts will surely do the trick:

        * Bonus 1: Your own personal copy of his international bestselling “Science of Success” book! Learn the 7 Laws that govern this universe, and the 7 action principles to ensure you create the life you deserve!

        * Bonus 2: A streaming video copy of James’ live presentation entitled “Parallel Universes.” Learn in this comprehensive program how modern science proves you can create the life of your own choosing–and exactly how to do it!

        That’s a lot of life-transforming information …and you get it all FREE when you
        Try James’ entire system for 40% off.


        Contact form from promoted sales site: phone # 877-484-4325 http://www.liferesultsnow.com/connect.html

        Google has this # listed on Jennifer Horton’s website contact page:

          1. @Life Results in turds, LMAO a yahoo email a sure sign of some virtual scamming in the works. I will teach you to be successful for $297, but won’t use an email addy that can be easily be traced back to me…

    2. @terry hall ::

      Good catch Terry. It looks like she’s merchant accounting this crap product. I just called that number and got her on the line. She wasn’t very cooperative. But she did tell me to have a productive thursday before she hung up on me.

      What do you think the chances are that she comes right here? 100%

      Hi Jennifer :: again.

      Wasn’t it funny how at first you admitted it … before you thought through who you were talking too? Yeah. God damn I’m so tricky. See I replaced small talk with the actual question … so you answered it by reflex out of politeness.

      And you’re wrong. That conversation was actually very productive for one of us. Have a blessed thursday yourself {click!}.

      1. @SD, I feel blessings virtually flowing to me like hot cakes as I create my future of one less guru & minion fleecing their flock. If you ask me the price is more than fair. You know that only 4 people have lost their lives during James Ray Seminars while he has helped “lots of people”.

        I’m personally glad to see that JAR has not lost his ability to persuade his flunkies into helping him with his noble cause to pay his monthly bills. Lord knows such a self-less coach like James Ray is only asking for money because if he didn’t no one would value the information…

      2. @SD, Since Jennifer Horton is a de facto sales agent for James Ray we probably should file a lis pendens against Jennifer and her company for the back wages the State of California has awarded Amy from JRI?

    3. @terry hall,

      Am I the only one that sees the humor in the name:

      “Virtual Success Coaching?”

      It’s not “actual” success coaching, it’s “virtual” success coaching. It’s not even real coaching, it’s “virtual” coaching.

      That’s why Death Ray is using a “virtual” merchant account. I guess he can’t get an “actual” merchant account given his propensity to kill people and generally just defraud everyone that he deals with. But that’s a whole other story.

      OK, I’ll go back to my regularly scheduled afternoon activities.

      1. @Rafael Marquez, LOL – Yep! you win the “BFO” award – Blinding Flash of the Obvious. The way I see it, just when you’ve suck all the marrow out of virtual coach james, he will roll out his next product “Indirect Success Coaching”; followed by the extremely valuable “Quasi Success Coaching” – all told he’ll take $2,500 – $3,000 from his flock so he can keep himself is steroids while his in the Az State Pen…

        Regarding Ms Horton processing Ray’s sales. I trust she is in compliance with her terms of service with her merchant account otherwise she may be setting herself up for CC fraud. I’m just saying.

        1. @terry Hall, This is under J. Horton’s,”What Is Coaching?”:

          “a therapist is someone you bring your luggage to and she helps you open it up and decipher the contents; a coach is someone you bring your luggage to and, without opening it, she helps you carry it across the street”

          So according to this analogy(not metaphor,Ms.Horton)
          the coach leaves the client on the other side of the street with an unopened,heavy piece of luggage,i.e.baggage. If the client wants to carry it further,he/she can pay the coach again,right?

          And if the client decides to never go through the contents, he/she can keep paying the coach to help lug unexamined baggage around indefinitely.

          Sounds like high-priced Denial to me.

      2. @Rafael Marquez,
        I also couldn’t help noticing it, but I’m still trying to work out the difference between True Wealth, Harmonic Wealth and Absolute Wealth.

          1. @terry Hall,

            Classic! Very well done.

            You have earned 5 stars which allows you to choose any one of the aforementioned James Arthur Ray course for FREE! Yes, free!

            All you have to do is pay a small $2,500 shipping and handling fee.

  5. I think this quote says it best for ALL of these so called guru self help experts

    “the man I followed for the last three, four years is not the man that he says he is.”

    I believe these people have milked the life out of the poor people who attended their events. They have made them ungrateful, selfish, deceitful, greedy, etc. etc. …. just like themselves.

    1. @trashtalk, Are you calling Dennis and other people who no longer trust Ray “ungrateful, selfish, deceitful, greedy, etc. etc”? Please clarify.

      1. @Jean D, I doubt that was what was meant. I think trashtalk means the people affected by the likes of James Ray. Guys like James Ray and his wannabe cronies have a LOT to answer for.

  6. Ray says:

    “you got to do the things that take care of you which is going to make you better and it’s going to keep you healthy and it’s going to keep you moving forward ..”

    Well JR I guess the people did, they spoke up LOUD, it seems that many despise you for not taking responsibility for something that you conceived, you created, you took money for, you taught, which ultimately means that it surely was YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Somehow I get that these guys think its a gurus right to be absolved from all responsibility just because their fast talking manipulative words can manufacture a response. You cant take any more from a person than their life so in my view case closed.

  7. Product recall … pfft

    The people who have been exposed in the secret movie are now my door mats.

  8. Love it. James Arthur Ray can’t even get and sustain a PayPal account, but the 16 year old next door has one.

    And people want to pay jimmy to teach them how to be wealthy and successful? No shit.

  9. Maybe ABC will start making up for all of the major TV networks’ sins of omission (and commission). Steve Salerno announced on his blog yesterday that ABC will air a special this Tuesday, June 29, 2010 at 10 PM EDT. The subject will be the ultimate significance of the JAR debacle, as well as the dark side of New-Age and magical thinking. I’m really looking forward to this one. http://tinyurl.com/2dqvmzs

    1. @Cosmic Connie,

      That’s awesome! I hope they do a proper job on this.

      I am thinking of the Nightline piece on “John of God” from several years ago where James Randi appeared as a skeptic. He was on-screen for about 30 seconds, and the rest of his one-hour interview was not used. The remainder of the piece was devoted to people who blindly followed John of God.

      Even though this man is clearly a charlatan, the network took a “gee whiz, we just don’t know” approach in promoting their broadcast.

      1. @Hippo, The example you gave is a rather sobering reminder of the fact that in the end, the networks go with what they think will produce the most ratings. The ABC piece could still end up disappointing those who might wish to see the gurus get their due. However, in light of the current wave of negative publicity about New-Wage gurus, it’s possible that ABC will ride that — at least for a while.

        1. @Cosmic Connie,

          Well, I was very dis-heartened by the John of God coverage.

          They could have easily exposed his tricks; however, they chose to go with the more tantalizing “you decide!” approach, which of course brings higher ratings.

          Mr. Salty told me that I set the bar too low, and he could be right. But after seeing stuff like this, I am grateful if there is any type of expose at all on these creeps.

  10. Only jackass idiot morons go back into a sweat lodge when their bodies are telling them they are dying. I wouldn’t have been jackass idiot enough to go back in. Would you?

    Anyone who goes back into a sweat lodge when their bodies are telling them they are dying deserve to die!

    Too many idiots on this planet as it is

    1. @Logical Joe,

      Oh, for fuck’s sake.

      Why don’t you live up to your screen name and do some research on this case?

      1. @Hippo, So, YOU would go back into a sauna if your body was telling you it was dying from the heat? If so YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

      2. @Hippo,

        I wouldn’t bother with “Logical” joe. To make his “logical” argument, I noticed he resorted to one of his idiotic theoretical constructs, and doesn’t take into consideration all the parameters of the argument, in order to “prove” his “logic”.

        For instance, if we were to dissect his “logic”, we could ask the following;

        Which theoretical “sauna club”, do they make you go on a food free, water free trek, before “surprising” you with a non-temperature controlled “sauna”? (what logical joe fails to realize (cuz he’s a fucking idiot), is that each gram of glycogen binds to 3 grams of water…fasting utilizes glycogen as the primary energy source thus depleting intracellular/intramuscular water stores (amongst other electrolytes in order to maintain homeostasis), inhibiting the “efficiency” and “longevity” of the thermo-regulatory effect of the body)

        Which theoretical “sauna club” doesn’t inform you that you even signed up to take a “sauna”? So you are able to enquire with your physician if you are medically fit to participate in a sauna (or to find out if any medications or supplements (such as thermogenics) will effect your bodys thermo regulatory response).

        It must be the same non-existent theoretical “sauna club” that fails to inform individuals of the warning signs to be cautious of.

        I’ve seen idiots before, but never ones that keep coming back for a beating, even using another handle.

        It appears that Logical Joe’s idiocy is inescapable..his logic…well…it escaped…

        1. @_cartman_,

          Of course, you’re right.

          There’s no comparison between a “sauna club” and a James Ray coercive mind-fuck.

          Thank you for that articulate and thoughtful comment.

      3. @Hippo, Just as we were getting ready for our summertime get together,look who shows up. Let’s just hope “it” slithers away. Oh,look,you made delicious crumb cake!

  11. It’s a simple equation:

    You join a sauna club

    You pay and sign a liability waiver not to hold the sauna club responsible should you suffer injury or death from the sauna club activities

    No matter who may encourage you to stay in the sauna, it then becomes YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to get out of the sauna if you feel you are actually dying

    If you go back into the sauna, after a 10-15 minute set, and suffer injury or death you have no one to blame but yourself, period!

    The logic is inescapable

  12. Idiots, who were there, talk about how horrible the conditions were in the sweat lodge and yet the jerks went back in!!!

    Now they want to hold James Arthur Ray responsible because they were idiot jerks!!

    What a world!

  13. @Logical Joe ::

    Dearest LeeKuanMinor ::

    1. Don’t double post your idiot comments. It’s bad enough I have to read them the first time.

    2. If you want to keep getting a rise out of people :: you have to regularly freshen up your material. You’ve been saying that same shit for months. Maybe try brainstorming some new ideas with your Mom.

    1. @SD, Here’s the link to that picture of LeeKuanMajorMinor again. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e95/sidarthursoluna/ELKHAN.jpg
      I ran across it in my “sleuthing” activities(amazing what you can find by looking at the Properties of images,then googling a “name”).

      Another theory another blogger & have developed is that LK is Mark Miyashiro,the schizophrenic in Oahua who threatened to kill Obama with a slingshot. If these guys not the same person,Oahu sure has very similiar middle-aged male schizophrenics. http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/landing_hawktalk_v3?blockID=136563&tagID=24950

      1. @Jean D,

        I need a drink after seeing that picture–did you bring any lemonade?

        If our least-favorite poster is schizophrenic, that would explain a lot of things.

        1. @Hippo, You remember our friend,O,from NY Mag discussion? She & I put this info together via email.At this point,we’re not sure LK is Mark M.We’re still speculating. However,they’re both delusional, hear voices,have violent tendencies,and have problems with alcohol.

          Yes,I brought lemonade.Did you want the hard kind?

          1. @Jean D,

            No, just the regular kind. Actually, sugar-free if you have it. My system is too weak to handle any alcohol.

            Besides, this board is quite enough excitement for someone my age.

    2. @SD, Oncwe again, I feel compelled to stress the fact that I am not, have never been, and have no relation whatsoever to the Lee Kuan / Logical Joe / Pat O’Bryan character that so routinely insists upon bearing witness to his own witlessness. Frankly, I even have doubts as to whether we’re in the same phylum, much less species.

      On another, more pertinent note, the full episode of last night’s Mind Games, where James Ray and Joe Vitale in particular show their true colors (and Dan Harris adroitly helps them show their true colors!) is viewable online at http://abc.go.com/watch/mind-games/SH5572513/VD5574173/primetime-mind-games-629

      If I had the means to capture it, I would certainly do so, if only for the glimpse of Vitale slipping out of his joy-joy mask and seething when challenged. Ah, that’s the Joe I know so well!

      1. @Li_Kuan, What about Vitale’s Laugh of Recognition when Dan Harris asked him, Do you ever wake up at night and say to yourself,I can’t believe I’m getting away with this?

        1. LOL, @Jean D and @Li_Kuan. Joe sputtered and almost seemed at a loss for words at times. But no matter; one pic is worth a thousand words, and Wish Dolly said all that needed to be said.

        2. @Jean D, to me, the most telling points were 1) when Dan asked Joe how he could sleep at night, and Joe’s face showed the seething anger that is so typical for him when challenged, and 2) as Cosmic Connie noted, when Joe was showing the little Hoshun wish dolly clip-art… which he touts as magical. Even Joe seemed embarrassed. IMO, the only “magic” is that he can get people to pay $39 for the privilege of downloading a cheesy cartoon. That’s a much better trick than pulling a quarter out of someone’s ear (or pseudo-science out of one’s own ass).

          1. @Li-kuan, @Cosmic Connie He showed anger and by bursting into laughter he non-verbally shouted,”Spot on,Dan!”

          2. @Li-kuan ::

            Mine is a bit of a thankless job :: full of depressing and horrible stories. But Joe holding up that Hoshon “doll” on national TV was kind of like God leaving me a tip!

  14. Salty et al, just as an FYI, the fact that Dateline got its show on-air several weeks before our own (“our” meaning ABC and me, a la June 29th’s “Primetime: Mind Games”) does not mean that we copied them. I was already working with top ABC producer Miguel Sancho in October 2009–right after the publication of my Wall Street Journal piece on the Ray affair–which, I happen to know for a fact, was several months before the Dateline crew decided to get on the stick. It may seem petty of me to make that point, but I’ve already had several people (who likely weren’t my biggest fans to begin with) allege that on top of all my other sins, I’m now guilty of a form of plagiarism. We simply took more time because we wanted to make every possible effort to interview Ray, and we also wanted to do the best job we could of getting at those “wider societal or circumstantial factors” you reference in your third point. Among other things, we wanted to bring Joe Vitale into the mix. Anyway, all of that took time to plan and arrange. And I think our finished product stands on its own merits.

    By the way, even in those infamous White Papers (and related addenda) submitted by the Ray defense team, there is material that I find incredibly damaging to Ray and his stated position. If I were Ray’s lawyer I think at this point I’d probably adopt a strategy that goes, more or less, JUST SHUT THE HELL UP AND DON’T PUT ANYTHING ELSE “OUT THERE” OR EVEN MOUNT A DEFENSE, and hope that my legal adversaries (criminal and civil) can’t do a good enough job of proving their own affirmative cases.

    1. @Steve Salerno,

      Until you mentioned it, I didn’t even think of comparing the two programs or that you “copied” anything.

      Your detractors sound pretty childish.

    2. @Steve Salerno ::

      If the Mind Games episode was Dateline plagiarism … then it should have sucked much harder.

      About his lawyers … I imagine that is EXACTLY what they are telling him. His behavior has been atypical of a criminal defendant … to say the least. My guess would be that MTO is telling him to shut his stupid mouth once or twice a week.

      It’s hard enough to get clients who don’t think they are God on Earth to listen.

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